Author Topic: People who don't "get it"  (Read 5767 times)

coppertop

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People who don't "get it"
« on: September 26, 2017, 08:12:01 AM »
As previously posted, I am retiring in December at age 62.  Not really 'early retirement,' but 'earlier retirement.'  I know people around my age who say they will have to work until they die. 

I didn't want to tell co-workers yet about my plans, but management has been notified so that they can begin the search. The person with whom I work most closely has observed some behavior from management concerning my job and has been questioning what is going on, so as a courtesy, I told her on the QT that I am going to be leaving.  Her reaction?  "Won't you miss the money?"  "How are you going to live?"  "What are you going to do for health insurance?" and the kicker, "Doesn't your husband want to get a job?"  (Hubby "retired" two years ago at age 56 and spends his days remodeling our house, doing chores and landscaping/vegetable gardening our property).  He was worried that people would think he's a slacker and taking advantage of me, and I gather that yes, some people do think that. 

So I told this co-worker that we have saved, have no debt, and live frugally.  That with my SS checks we will be fine.  I could tell she just didn't understand.  Hubby's truck, which he uses for Home Depot runs, picking up firewood, etc., is a 1999 Ranger that runs fine.  She said her husband needs a new truck every couple of years.  Both of them work their fingers to the bone and provide 'welfare' to their two adult children.  She can't fathom NOT doing that, since it keeps the kids close to the home place.  My kids are all on their own in other locales and all are gainfully employed.  I miss them terribly, but I would rather have them self-sufficient and responsible than slackers. 

I know it's not my problem, but I am troubled that there are so many people who put themselves in the hole and then keep digging.  My conversation with her has been nagging at me ever since.  Also adding to their situation, interestingly, they have been married for 40 years, only marriage for both, and bought their properties a long time ago.  Hubby and I were both divorced (neither divorce initiated by us) and lost our homes in the settlements - had to start over.  When we married, we combined our resources, but were in our late 40s/early 50s at the time - and we STILL managed to save enough and pay off the house we bought. 

I could never have accomplished this in my first marriage - nor he in his.  Both exes are spendypants and kept us in debt.  They were also both the major breadwinners in the previous marriages.  I am proud what we have done, but saddened that others can't realize what is possible.

undercover

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 08:17:41 AM »
Just depends on how much you want something. Having a personality that prioritizes long term goals over short term ones is also necessary.

okits

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 08:59:09 AM »
Hey, if your coworker can't imagine any other way, then she has no idea what she's missing!

Less facetious: they're making choices.  Choices to consume, choices to bribe their kids into dependency.  We all make choices and have to live with them.  They may very well feel that working forever is worth it.

Congratulations on your upcoming ER!

BTDretire

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 09:03:53 AM »
If it troubles you, and I would present it that way, set up a dinner with this person the day after you leave, for a discussion of the MMM philosophy.  I would have notes and web addresses available on paper. I may even add how you could not have retired with your previous spendypants mate.
 You don't need to tell them you have money. That will become apparent if they immerse themselves
in your website list.
 You can leave MMM of your list so they won't see you, but with any curiosity they will find it anyway.
 It never to late for someone to get ahead.

Guesl982374

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 11:16:33 AM »
If it troubles you, and I would present it that way, set up a dinner with this person the day after you leave, for a discussion of the MMM philosophy.  I would have notes and web addresses available on paper. I may even add how you could not have retired with your previous spendypants mate.
 You don't need to tell them you have money. That will become apparent if they immerse themselves
in your website list.
 You can leave MMM of your list so they won't see you, but with any curiosity they will find it anyway.
 It never to late for someone to get ahead.

I disagree with this and believe that this will just waste the OP time. The coworker has already shown that she isn't open minded to the MMM philosophy (is she really going to cut off her kids and buy a used truck??? doubtful).

coppertop - First and foremost congratulations for all of your (& DH's) hard work and for getting out of a shitty work situation. You should (and deserve to) feel proud. With regards to your work friend, as others have said, they have made their choices and as allpeople age (even us MMMers) we get stuck in our ways. Their failings are not your problem. You can help to offer to educate if the person is open minded however it sounds like she won't be. Focus on what you can control and try to stop worrying about things you can't. My guess is with time the feeling will pass as you won't speak with her very often (or ever) after you retire.

Moustachienne

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 11:34:35 AM »
I relate to this very much!  We have just retired at 60, which is considered incredibly early in our workplaces.

The weird thing is that quite a few of our co-workers seem to be in the exact same position as us (older, paid off houses, no kids or launched kids, non-spendy lifestyles, Canadian health coverage, etc.) but still are amazed that we are "able" to retire.  In these cases, it seems to be a complete reluctance to actually sit down with their numbers to get a bead on where they are and make some timing decisions.  It seems to be a psychological issue rather than a financial one but since they won't look into their finances, it adds up to the same thing.  I've had to fight off feeling somehow apologetic that we're retired given that they could all be too. Crazy on my part! Some have asked me for advice but I'm not sure they really want to hear it, let alone act on it.

 But meanwhile we're loving the time we've bought for ourselves!

mathlete

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 11:36:32 AM »
I don't know. I think you should probably just respect that different people lead different lives. Especially with regards to the children. I'm glad things turned out well for your kids, but that isn't something that is 100% in control of the parents.

I'm probably about the age of your children or your coworker's children. I'm living on my own and doing very well for myself, but I have a number of friends who live at home. College tuition is vastly more expensive than it was 40 years ago, and the number of middle income jobs that you can get right out of high school is dwindling.

I'm not absolving my friends of all responsibility for their situation. None of them think about personal finance to the fraction of the level that I do and there is a ton of low hanging fruit for them to collect in order to better their own lives, I'm sure. But I see this attitude from my parents a lot. "XYZ enable their kids too much. They need to push those slackers out of the nest."

What goes unsaid here, is that they think they pushed me out of the nest. That my success is a direct result of their parenting style. Their parenting certainly played a big role, of course. They were supportive and stable and raised me in a safe neighborhood.

They didn't push me out of the nest though. I left myself.

I sought W2 employment as soon as I could drive. I saved aggressively from the time I got a job at 16, to when I graduated college, so that I could avoid debt. I discovered and read up on personal finance and investing on my own. I taught myself how to cook. I save more aggressively, and lead a healthier lifestyle than they ever did.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, my parents did a terrific job, but they also got extremely lucky by having me as a kid. Coming of age, post 2000 is very different from coming of age in the 1970s or 1980s. Maybe it's not what your coworkers (or my friend's parents) had in mind when their kids were born, but things changed. Children are varying degrees of "cooperative". Everyone just has to make things work the best way they can.

fattest_foot

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 11:45:32 AM »
I'm absolutely astounded that someone in their 60's still gets the "but how will you survive" reaction.

It's stories like this that make me realize just how outside the box retirement in your 40's or 50's is.

That's got to be a depressing existence where you have to work to be able to afford your lifestyle at an age where you can feasibly already be withdrawing from Social Security.

coppertop

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 12:26:12 PM »
I'm absolutely astounded that someone in their 60's still gets the "but how will you survive" reaction.

It's stories like this that make me realize just how outside the box retirement in your 40's or 50's is.

That's got to be a depressing existence where you have to work to be able to afford your lifestyle at an age where you can feasibly already be withdrawing from Social Security.

It also bugs me that people think my husband is some sort of freeloader because he doesn't earn any money, even though he works harder than many of them do.  Right now he's remodeling our kitchen, including building cabinets himself.  He grows a garden full of vegetables and does all of the maintenance and repair at our home, plus laundry and cleaning.  The only work I really do at home besides paying the bills is the cooking, because I enjoy it.  There really is more to life than making money, but most people won't believe it.

okits

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 01:06:06 PM »
I'm absolutely astounded that someone in their 60's still gets the "but how will you survive" reaction.

It's stories like this that make me realize just how outside the box retirement in your 40's or 50's is.

That's got to be a depressing existence where you have to work to be able to afford your lifestyle at an age where you can feasibly already be withdrawing from Social Security.

It also bugs me that people think my husband is some sort of freeloader because he doesn't earn any money, even though he works harder than many of them do.  Right now he's remodeling our kitchen, including building cabinets himself.  He grows a garden full of vegetables and does all of the maintenance and repair at our home, plus laundry and cleaning.  The only work I really do at home besides paying the bills is the cooking, because I enjoy it.  There really is more to life than making money, but most people won't believe it.

Does it bother your DH?  Is he even aware of the judgment?  I follow Jon_Snow's journal (ERed spouse of a FI couple, waiting for his DW to decide she's ready to ER, too), and his life seems grand.  He never mentions the freeloader label, though being ~15 years younger than your DH I would assume people would be even more likely to assume that of him, being job-free.  Maybe it's a nasty attitude people show you but your DH never encounters.  You can set 'em straight, but those interactions might not be bothering your DH at all (never sees them/doesn't care).

BFGirl

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 01:07:39 PM »
I don't know. I think you should probably just respect that different people lead different lives. Especially with regards to the children. I'm glad things turned out well for your kids, but that isn't something that is 100% in control of the parents.

I'm probably about the age of your children or your coworker's children. I'm living on my own and doing very well for myself, but I have a number of friends who live at home. College tuition is vastly more expensive than it was 40 years ago, and the number of middle income jobs that you can get right out of high school is dwindling.

I'm not absolving my friends of all responsibility for their situation. None of them think about personal finance to the fraction of the level that I do and there is a ton of low hanging fruit for them to collect in order to better their own lives, I'm sure. But I see this attitude from my parents a lot. "XYZ enable their kids too much. They need to push those slackers out of the nest."

What goes unsaid here, is that they think they pushed me out of the nest. That my success is a direct result of their parenting style. Their parenting certainly played a big role, of course. They were supportive and stable and raised me in a safe neighborhood.

They didn't push me out of the nest though. I left myself.

I sought W2 employment as soon as I could drive. I saved aggressively from the time I got a job at 16, to when I graduated college, so that I could avoid debt. I discovered and read up on personal finance and investing on my own. I taught myself how to cook. I save more aggressively, and lead a healthier lifestyle than they ever did.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, my parents did a terrific job, but they also got extremely lucky by having me as a kid. Coming of age, post 2000 is very different from coming of age in the 1970s or 1980s. Maybe it's not what your coworkers (or my friend's parents) had in mind when their kids were born, but things changed. Children are varying degrees of "cooperative". Everyone just has to make things work the best way they can.

As a parent of kids in college, I'd like to hear your perspective on how things have changed post 2000, especially for someone in their mid-20s seeking a job post education.

mathlete

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 02:45:48 PM »
As a parent of kids in college, I'd like to hear your perspective on how things have changed post 2000, especially for someone in their mid-20s seeking a job post education.

Sure. A quick caveat: My personal experience is only that of a 28 year old in 2017. I have no personal experience growing up in any other time, and so my opinions and analysis will only reflect empirical data. My words relate only to the United States.

From 1980 to 2000, real median personal income grew by 36%, or a bit over 1.5% a year. From 2000 to 2016, it grew by ~3.3%, or only about two tenths of a percent a year. (1)

So wage growth has slowed dramatically, despite the fact that the average citizen is more educated than ever. As of 2015, 88% of those 25 and older have graduated high school and 33% have a bachelor's degree. Compare this with 74% and 19% respectively from 1985. (2)(3)

69% of college seniors have school debt. (4)

It isn't all doom and gloom of course, we are sitting at 4.4% unemployment, which is quite good(5). But we've lost a lot of low skill, middle income jobs. And we evidently don't have enough high income jobs to support our number of college graduates. MMM talks about how you should prioritize living in a low COL area. That is great if you're FIREd already, but with as much as some counties are still struggling post-recession, this can be difficult. Safe. Good Job Prospects. Affordable. Checking all three boxes can be difficult.

(1) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
(2) https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/1987/demo/p20-415.pdf
(3) https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/p20-578.pdf
(4) https://ticas.org/posd/state-state-data-2015
(5) https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

mathlete

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 02:56:32 PM »
Not trying to dog on the frugal, supersaver, early retiree lifestyle or anything. I'm still very much bullish on it.

Everyone can benefit by cutting costs. Everyone can benefit by learning to cook, or doing pushups instead of having a gym membership that they never use. But there are limits to this kind of thing.

By definition, only 10% of people have top 10% incomes. Only 10% of kids will be top 10% academic achievers. A kick ass, mid sized, up and coming local economy can only support so many people moving there for its low COL before its COL isn't low anymore.

Sometimes, your average friends will just be average because most people are average. And a compelling case can be made to such people that a life of working to the grave, but with new toys, and providing for adult family members who are struggling is superior to a life of rice and beans for the sake of a retirement of rice and beans.

But no one should judge your husband, OP. Way not cool. And congrats to two remarkable people for achieving great results post divorce.

TartanTallulah

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 03:28:51 PM »

It also bugs me that people think my husband is some sort of freeloader because he doesn't earn any money, even though he works harder than many of them do.  Right now he's remodeling our kitchen, including building cabinets himself.  He grows a garden full of vegetables and does all of the maintenance and repair at our home, plus laundry and cleaning.  The only work I really do at home besides paying the bills is the cooking, because I enjoy it.  There really is more to life than making money, but most people won't believe it.

I hear ya! My husband was a stay-at-home (step)parent while my kids were in their teens, and he was forever smiling sweetly at impertinent comments about being a "househusband" or even "carer" (that was his own father's favourite jibe) whereas I'd get expressions of concern because I was working my butt off as the only wage-earner in the household. I learned to be ruthless about telling people who asked me if my husband couldn't get a job to keep their noses out of our domestic arrangements (or, if that was uncalled-for, saying no, he had no notion). Did they think we were so stupid that the option hadn't occurred to us? At times I did find it challenging that I was chained to a desk for 12 hours a day while DH could arrange his day as he pleased when the kids were at school, and that I wasn't the go-to parent, and I could have done with having a grumble about it, but there was no way I was going to feed the vultures, and DH and I revisited the matter from time to time (usually initiated by me having a meltdown) and decided to stay as we were because my earning capacity was a great deal higher and I liked the security of knowing that I'd never have to leave work for a domestic emergency. And DH was an amazing parent, and did all sorts of domestic maintenance and construction jobs that I couldn't have done.


SC93

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 04:50:42 PM »
This has nothing to do with money or retiring..... anyone that judges your husband doesn't know what commitment is about. You and your husband are 1. Anyone who doesn't 'get' what I just said is not really committed because you don't know what it means.

To the OP, you can only educate, if you choose to do so, those that do not understand that you and your husband are committed. But really, why care? If you are truly comfortable it means nothing to you.

As for being retired, I tried it, hated it. Good luck!

coppertop

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2017, 07:37:49 AM »
Neither my husband nor I have ever been top earners, much less in the top 10%.  When I first knew him, he worked in retail as a receiver.  He went to school and became a medical technician, which paid way more than retail, but still average pay.  In the same time frame, I went from being a secretary to paralegal to administration, which resulted in a large pay increase, but still not six figures by any means.  Also, he is a vegetarian and I am 90% of the way there, so beans and rice is fabulous for us!!!!  :)  ...yes, he does occasionally get the snarky comments about having a 'sugar mamma' and the like, and it does bother him.  He feels guilty at times for being home while I am working (as if he is not "working").  That will end, of course, when I retire in the near future.  Then we will both be looked upon as slackers, I suppose.

SC93

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2017, 09:25:16 AM »
.... and you care what they think?

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2017, 12:22:55 PM »
I used to care what people think.  Not sure what happened, I think it's the ERE/MMM community making me realize that 'normal' is being broke, unhealthy, unhappy, and working until you're 70 or worse.  So I figure if people look down on what I'm doing then there's a good chance I'm on the right track.  I wasn't conscious of the change, but I realized at some point that the incredulous and snide comments started making me happy.

BFGirl

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2017, 02:26:56 PM »
As a parent of kids in college, I'd like to hear your perspective on how things have changed post 2000, especially for someone in their mid-20s seeking a job post education.

Sure. A quick caveat: My personal experience is only that of a 28 year old in 2017. I have no personal experience growing up in any other time, and so my opinions and analysis will only reflect empirical data. My words relate only to the United States.

From 1980 to 2000, real median personal income grew by 36%, or a bit over 1.5% a year. From 2000 to 2016, it grew by ~3.3%, or only about two tenths of a percent a year. (1)

So wage growth has slowed dramatically, despite the fact that the average citizen is more educated than ever. As of 2015, 88% of those 25 and older have graduated high school and 33% have a bachelor's degree. Compare this with 74% and 19% respectively from 1985. (2)(3)

69% of college seniors have school debt. (4)

It isn't all doom and gloom of course, we are sitting at 4.4% unemployment, which is quite good(5). But we've lost a lot of low skill, middle income jobs. And we evidently don't have enough high income jobs to support our number of college graduates. MMM talks about how you should prioritize living in a low COL area. That is great if you're FIREd already, but with as much as some counties are still struggling post-recession, this can be difficult. Safe. Good Job Prospects. Affordable. Checking all three boxes can be difficult.

(1) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N
(2) https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/1987/demo/p20-415.pdf
(3) https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/p20-578.pdf
(4) https://ticas.org/posd/state-state-data-2015
(5) https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

Thanks for the info.  My kids won't have any debt from college.  I'm mainly worried about them finding jobs that earn them enough to no longer be dependent on me. 

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: People who don't "get it"
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2017, 03:13:23 PM »
Thanks for the info.  My kids won't have any debt from college.  I'm mainly worried about them finding jobs that earn them enough to no longer be dependent on me.

Lol, it's not hard to be self sufficient, unless you want them to be able to maintain a standard of living that has taken you decades earn, but they haven't yet, so you supplement their income so they don't have to 'go without'.