Paycheck-To-Paycheck Nation

[ender]

It's also not the case that working in an office is the most optimal and perfect for health either.

[Kazyan]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

[ender]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

If you are going to consider business failure rates, you've gotta consider how many people start and don't finish college too ;-)

[researcher1]

However, by mid-40’s, almost all of them develop some health problem or the other that seriously affect their ability to do their physically demanding jobs.

But this incorrectly assumes that all "trades" are physically demanding, which they are not.
Not everyone is a bricklayer or rough framing carpenter.
There are lots of trades that are far less demanding.

This also isn't counting all of the other non-college professions beyond the "trades."
There are plenty of occupations that don't require college degrees and aren't physically demanding.

[WhiteTrashCash]

However, by mid-40’s, almost all of them develop some health problem or the other that seriously affect their ability to do their physically demanding jobs.

But this incorrectly assumes that all "trades" are physically demanding, which they are not.
Not everyone is a bricklayer or rough framing carpenter.
There are lots of trades that are far less demanding.

This also isn't counting all of the other non-college professions beyond the "trades."
There are plenty of occupations that don't require college degrees and aren't physically demanding.

Your argument is becoming more and more fragmentary. So, maybe we can concede that a small number of trade jobs that meet all the necessary requirements in the correct places in the country in the time in America history that would allow them to be successful could possibly sometimes result in financial enrichment for some people.

This is why I speak in absolutes, because people cling to these unlikely scenarios (like the state lottery) and they end up living with disappointment.

[researcher1]

Your argument is becoming more and more fragmentary. So, maybe we can concede that a small number of trade jobs that meet all the necessary requirements in the correct places in the country in the time in America history that would allow them to be successful could possibly sometimes result in financial enrichment for some people.

This is why I speak in absolutes, because people cling to these unlikely scenarios (like the state lottery) and they end up living with disappointment.

Dude, give it up.
You have been outed as someone who is completely out of touch with the lives of non-college educated people in this country.
As dozens of people have tried to explain, you are wrong on this issue.

The fact that you don't know anyone living a middle-class life without a degree is sad.
I suggest you come down from your ivory tower, leave the bubble you live in, and see how real people live in this country.

There are tens of millions of people living middle-class lives without a degree.
These are people from all ages, who aren't physically broken down from their work.

It is embarrassing that you think a non-college educated middle-class person is as rare/unlikely as winning the lottery.
I don't know that I've ever come across someone as out-of-touch as you.
As I mentioned before, I can name 50+ such people off the top of my head.

[WhiteTrashCash]

Your argument is becoming more and more fragmentary. So, maybe we can concede that a small number of trade jobs that meet all the necessary requirements in the correct places in the country in the time in America history that would allow them to be successful could possibly sometimes result in financial enrichment for some people.

This is why I speak in absolutes, because people cling to these unlikely scenarios (like the state lottery) and they end up living with disappointment.

Dude, give it up.
You have been outed as someone who is completely out of touch with the lives of non-college educated people in this country.
As dozens of people have tried to explain, you are wrong on this issue.

The fact that you don't know anyone living a middle-class life without a degree is sad.
I suggest you come down from your ivory tower, leave the bubble you live in, and see how real people live in this country.

There are tens of millions of people living middle-class lives without a degree.
These are people from all ages, who aren't physically broken down from their work.

It is embarrassing that you think a non-college educated middle-class person is as rare/unlikely as winning the lottery.
I don't know that I've ever come across someone as out-of-touch as you.
As I mentioned before, I can name 50+ such people off the top of my head in fantasyland where unicorns live in gumdrop forests.

fyp

[dignam]

There are some exceptions. Some of them switch to being business owners. I hired a tree guy who climbed on a 50-ft tree himself. He was 68 at that time and way more physically capable than I will ever be, AND he owned a multi-million-$$ rental properties portfolio!! People probably tend to see the outliers and glorify trades. Similarly outlying “college educated” would far outperform the outlying tradies! At the lower end of the distribution, a back issue is less of a problem for an office worker than a tradie + the minimally health conscious office worker has much lower chances of getting it.

This is a very good point.  I have a friend who likes to boast on FB that he makes six figures without a college education and likes to take shots at people who do go to school.  He conveniently leaves out the fact that his family's business gave him an "in" to make that kind of money.  He is very certainly an outlier but he thinks he's just the shit.

Not saying you can't make a good living as a tradesman, but putting the median income of a tradesman vs. median income of a college grad with a STEM degree (among others) will show that in general you will make more with a degree (a useful degree that is).  Otherwise, why are people doing it?  Plus, as stated, the physical burnout is real for certain trades.

[ender]

The "trades" also mean a lot of different things.

It's unclear to me that everyone is using a shared definition of what types of jobs are included.

[GuitarStv]

The "trades" also mean a lot of different things.

It's unclear to me that everyone is using a shared definition of what types of jobs are included.

Yep.  There may be an argument for an electrician or plumber . . . But it's pretty hard to argue that general construction labour is a great career.  They're all trades.

[dignam]

For sake of argument, I think of plumber/electrician/HVAC as trades here.

[WhiteTrashCash]

There are some exceptions. Some of them switch to being business owners. I hired a tree guy who climbed on a 50-ft tree himself. He was 68 at that time and way more physically capable than I will ever be, AND he owned a multi-million-$$ rental properties portfolio!! People probably tend to see the outliers and glorify trades. Similarly outlying “college educated” would far outperform the outlying tradies! At the lower end of the distribution, a back issue is less of a problem for an office worker than a tradie + the minimally health conscious office worker has much lower chances of getting it.

This is a very good point.  I have a friend who likes to boast on FB that he makes six figures without a college education and likes to take shots at people who do go to school.  He conveniently leaves out the fact that his family's business gave him an "in" to make that kind of money.  He is very certainly an outlier but he thinks he's just the shit.

Not saying you can't make a good living as a tradesman, but putting the median income of a tradesman vs. median income of a college grad with a STEM degree (among others) will show that in general you will make more with a degree (a useful degree that is).  Otherwise, why are people doing it?  Plus, as stated, the physical burnout is real for certain trades.

Some of the people who brag about doing well in the trades are people who picked up the education of a business school by working for a family business. Others had a business school degree paid for by their families. Very few did it with innate knowledge or by picking it up working for someone else.

[ender]

The "trades" also mean a lot of different things.

It's unclear to me that everyone is using a shared definition of what types of jobs are included.

Yep.  There may be an argument for an electrician or plumber . . . But it's pretty hard to argue that general construction labour is a great career.  They're all trades.

The flip side is true of college degrees too, though. Not all college degrees are equally useful in "fasttracking" someone for success.

[Metalcat]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

Yes, and the vast, overwhelming majority of people I've seen who started or bought a business had a completely shit business sense.

Obviously just knowing what you are doing isn't a guarantee, I already said above that on average being an educated employee is far more probable to result in financial stability, but I also come from a social and familial background where starting businesses is the norm, and frequently works out well when planned and executed reasonably.

However, as I said previously, what I meant by the word "easily" was that if someone is successful in business, they can easily outperform someone with a university degree, and often with less effort once things are up and running.

My father was making more than I make as a medical professional running a little gift shop in a tourist town, and his work and hours were far less demanding than mine.

Is that the norm? No, but in my personal circle entrepreneurial success is far more prevalent than failure.

[ctuser1]

The "trades" also mean a lot of different things.

It's unclear to me that everyone is using a shared definition of what types of jobs are included.

Yep.  There may be an argument for an electrician or plumber . . . But it's pretty hard to argue that general construction labour is a great career.  They're all trades.

Electricians and plumbers do plenty of hard physical labor on a regular basis.

When I need to replace my Freon based AC unit, I will fully expect the electrician I hire to perform quite dangerous work in extremely confined spaces in the attic, for hours. Last time I hired a plumber, he carried this toilet seat up the stairs - https://www.samsclub.com/p/het-2-piece-toilet-finisia-toilet/prod9570001. It is NOT lightweight and I, personally, couldn't carry the package up the stairs (I tried).   

[bigblock440]

If a college degree was the key to wealth, why the big push to have student loans paid back by the taxpayer?

Average salary for someone with a degree is about $50k.  At a 50 hour work week (lets be honest, 50 hours+ is normal for many college degree'd professionals) you'd only need an hourly rate of $17.50 to exceed that.  That's a basic, button pushing, manufacturing floor job.  My maintenance techs are all clearing 60k, some significantly more, and this is all at the lowest paying plant I've worked at, others had many hourly employees making 22-26/hr, add in OT and you're right there for your 80k "middle class" income.

[Tigerpine]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

Yes, and the vast, overwhelming majority of people I've seen who started or bought a business had a completely shit business sense.

Obviously just knowing what you are doing isn't a guarantee, I already said above that on average being an educated employee is far more probable to result in financial stability, but I also come from a social and familial background where starting businesses is the norm, and frequently works out well when planned and executed reasonably.

However, as I said previously, what I meant by the word "easily" was that if someone is successful in business, they can easily outperform someone with a university degree, and often with less effort once things are up and running.

My father was making more than I make as a medical professional running a little gift shop in a tourist town, and his work and hours were far less demanding than mine.

Is that the norm? No, but in my personal circle entrepreneurial success is far more prevalent than failure.

The sequel to The Millionaire Next Door is quite interesting.  It's called The Millionaire Mind by Thomas J. Stanley.  He spends a good amount of time on describing the successful in a number of walks of life.  You absolutely do not NEED a college education to be successful.  But you do need to work hard and be able to see opportunities as they present themselves.

[Samuel]

It's worth remembering that population level statistics, such as those showing higher income and wealth levels for people with college degrees, are aggregations of the experience of millions of people and actually have pretty limited applicability to individual level career decisions. What holds true at a population level does not necessarily hold true at the individual level where variations in circumstances, aptitudes, interests, ambitions, etc, are much more relevant factors to your potential success than whether you graduate from a four year college or not. Many people economically thrive in non-college path careers and many flounder with a college degree despite the population level outcomes.

[WhiteTrashCash]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

Yes, and the vast, overwhelming majority of people I've seen who started or bought a business had a completely shit business sense.

Obviously just knowing what you are doing isn't a guarantee, I already said above that on average being an educated employee is far more probable to result in financial stability, but I also come from a social and familial background where starting businesses is the norm, and frequently works out well when planned and executed reasonably.

However, as I said previously, what I meant by the word "easily" was that if someone is successful in business, they can easily outperform someone with a university degree, and often with less effort once things are up and running.

My father was making more than I make as a medical professional running a little gift shop in a tourist town, and his work and hours were far less demanding than mine.

Is that the norm? No, but in my personal circle entrepreneurial success is far more prevalent than failure.

I view entrepreneurship vs. wage working in sort of the way that John Bogle viewed stockpicking vs. index fund investing. Is it possible to obtain great wealth through entrepreneurship? Sure, it happens. It's within the realm of possibiliity. Is it likely to happen? Not at all. Wage working has lower risk and usually higher reward, especially when you combine it with index fund investing, where you end up getting a share of the company profits anyway.

I think if you honestly measure all the probabilities between various kinds of employment, then wage earning college graduates come out on top in the vast majority of scenarios. Will they always win? Of course not. But this is not a forum for gambling.

[Paper Chaser]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

[mm1970]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

I think the point of wear and tear in trades is the constant, repetitive nature of it all.

Yes, plumbers and electricians do a lot of physical labor.  My BIL was in trades (building manufactured homes) and a lot of people turn into physical wrecks really young (like, 50), because of the repetitive nature of the physical movements.  (Vs desk jobs which are the opposite - physical wreck from sitting on your butt all day).

[Kris]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

I think the point of wear and tear in trades is the constant, repetitive nature of it all.

Yes, plumbers and electricians do a lot of physical labor.  My BIL was in trades (building manufactured homes) and a lot of people turn into physical wrecks really young (like, 50), because of the repetitive nature of the physical movements.  (Vs desk jobs which are the opposite - physical wreck from sitting on your butt all day).

Exactly. It’s a bit shocking to see that kind of physical labor compared to recreational exercise.

[Metalcat]

It usually requires a good entrepreneurial sense, but someone business savvy can easily out perform someone formally educated in terms of earnings.

Could you elaborate on this? I've been under the impression that entrepreneurship has a 90% "crash and burn" rate.

Yes, and the vast, overwhelming majority of people I've seen who started or bought a business had a completely shit business sense.

Obviously just knowing what you are doing isn't a guarantee, I already said above that on average being an educated employee is far more probable to result in financial stability, but I also come from a social and familial background where starting businesses is the norm, and frequently works out well when planned and executed reasonably.

However, as I said previously, what I meant by the word "easily" was that if someone is successful in business, they can easily outperform someone with a university degree, and often with less effort once things are up and running.

My father was making more than I make as a medical professional running a little gift shop in a tourist town, and his work and hours were far less demanding than mine.

Is that the norm? No, but in my personal circle entrepreneurial success is far more prevalent than failure.

I view entrepreneurship vs. wage working in sort of the way that John Bogle viewed stockpicking vs. index fund investing. Is it possible to obtain great wealth through entrepreneurship? Sure, it happens. It's within the realm of possibiliity. Is it likely to happen? Not at all. Wage working has lower risk and usually higher reward, especially when you combine it with index fund investing, where you end up getting a share of the company profits anyway.

I think if you honestly measure all the probabilities between various kinds of employment, then wage earning college graduates come out on top in the vast majority of scenarios. Will they always win? Of course not. But this is not a forum for gambling.

I literally never claimed that.

I believe you were the one who claimed that a university degree was necessary for financial success and I simply argued against that assertion as an absolute.

I said REPEATEDLY that university education and being a corporate employee is the far more reliable path. So I really don't see why you are arguing with me.

[ctuser1]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

A racehorse winning a Triple Crown is phenomenal because it is so exceptionally difficult!

The horses generally need a long time to recover because:
https://slate.com/technology/2015/06/american-pharoah-cant-win-according-to-science-racing-physics-muscle-fatigue-chemistry-of-recovery.html

As the animal blows through its glycogen, something else happens: Its muscles produce lactic acid. The enzymes that break glycogen into glucose that the body can metabolize are sensitive; if tissue becomes too acidic, the metabolic pathways can’t function properly. In other words, the horses are running out of fuel and they have a harder time processing the fuel they still have. “They start shutting down,” Thunes says.

Now imagine being such a "horse" running races day in and day out, every day, on demand, and having zero option of stopping even when injured!!

That is an entirely different beast (pun intended) compared to "300 minutes a week" recreational exercise!

[WhiteTrashCash]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

I think the point of wear and tear in trades is the constant, repetitive nature of it all.

Yes, plumbers and electricians do a lot of physical labor.  My BIL was in trades (building manufactured homes) and a lot of people turn into physical wrecks really young (like, 50), because of the repetitive nature of the physical movements.  (Vs desk jobs which are the opposite - physical wreck from sitting on your butt all day).

Exactly. It’s a bit shocking to see that kind of physical labor compared to recreational exercise.

Me too. I wonder if that’s the kind of work that someone needs to actually experience in order to understand it. Manual labor really wears on the body.

[mizzourah2006]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50. Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20. Most of my friends that didn't go to college had purchased homes by the time they were ~22ish. I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

I guess all my friends are the anomaly then. Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

[researcher1]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

[Villanelle]

It seems like there an implicit argument that because most tradespeople are struggling financially, that's proof that it's not a financially stable and attractive career.  Um, aren't most *Americans* struggling financially, including those with college degrees?  So I guess that means being an American means one can't get ahead financially?  And aren't most people with college degrees struggling as well?  So I guess that means having a college degree means one can't get ahead financially.

My uncle got to be upper middle class in the construction business.  It's a niche corner, but he rents out a specific piece of equipment used in homebuilding.  Initially, he did all of the delivering and pickup up, though eventually I believe he hired a few employees.  I know someone who got a mechanic's certification and has since moved up (so he is no longer turning wrenches, though I admit I don't know exactly what he does, but he does not have a bachelor's degree) and done very well (upper middle class) for himself and his family, though my impression is that they spend every dollar they make.   

Both are at about the same level of financial success, as far as I can tell, as all of my college-educated friends.  That second one likely is living close to paycheck to paycheck, as are several dual college-educated couples I can think of off the top of my head.

So yeah, the trades aren't a near-guaranteed path to financial freedom.  Neither is a college degree.  If you spend everything, don't plan ahead, don't work your way up, and don't anticipate what future-you might want and need, you are screwed whether you have that degree or not.  But mechanics and plumbers and HVAC experts and welders and police officers (some of which require degrees, others don't) and firefighters can all live middle or even upper middle class lives fairly easily, sans college.  They can have middle and upper middle class incomes fairly easily.  (After a few years, but it usually takes a few years for most college graduates to start making really good money, too.) 

Most of my friends are college educated, because I am and there are many filters in our lives that tend to sort us accordingly.  But to be so out of touch that one doesn't even know any tradespeople who are doing okay?  That's astounding to me. 

[WhiteTrashCash]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

[Tigerpine]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

I though the forum was about living well within your means whatever they may be and being more mindful of both your life and every day choices with the goal of being FI or FIRE in the long run.

I certainly didn't make six figures when I started following this forum.  My job still doesn't pay that much.  But I'm well on my way to achieving my financial goals.

[WhiteTrashCash]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

I though the forum was about living well within your means whatever they may be and being more mindful of both your life and every day choices with the goal of being FI or FIRE in the long run.

I certainly didn't make six figures when I started following this forum.  My job still doesn't pay that much.  But I'm well on my way to achieving my financial goals.

Everybody starts somewhere. I started on welfare. But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65, which is less likely in one of those professions.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here about the value of a college education. It is absolutely the single biggest factor out there that transforms the lives of the underclass to becoming middle-class or upper middle-class like me. (Upper class on Hillbilly Mountain.)

It makes me upset when I think of all the bright minds out there who never get to realize their potential because people tell them they are only good enough to go into trades. I often wonder how many people on Hillbilly Mountain could have been the next Nobel Prize Winner or develop the next big tech or go on to create some of the world’s best literature, but they don’t get to accomplish these things because of attitudes toward college education I’ve seen on this thread.

[Metalcat]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

Why on earth are you reacting this way?

I cannot understand why.

[mizzourah2006]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

I though the forum was about living well within your means whatever they may be and being more mindful of both your life and every day choices with the goal of being FI or FIRE in the long run.

I certainly didn't make six figures when I started following this forum.  My job still doesn't pay that much.  But I'm well on my way to achieving my financial goals.

Everybody starts somewhere. I started on welfare. But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65, which is less likely in one of those professions.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here about the value of a college education. It is absolutely the single biggest factor out there that transforms the lives of the underclass to becoming middle-class or upper middle-class like me. (Upper class on Hillbilly Mountain.)

Thanks for your wonderful words of wisdom. I'll text all my buddies and tell them that maybe they can retire at 65 if they aren't dead from being overworked...you know 10 years after their pensions all fully vest because some guy on the internet said they're job is a joke and it's more for entry level people. Maybe they'll turn around and go get a degree in history or something. I'm sure that'll pay better than their $70-$80k/yr income and they'll just have to give up 4 years of earnings and pay $20k/yr to get the degree. Only a $400k investment for them.

As others have said I'd suggest expanding your horizons. My dad didn't have a college degree and retired 5 years ago at 55 with a pension that pays him almost $100k/yr and a NW of over 1 million. My wife's parents didn't have college degrees and they retired about 7 years ago at 55 with ~$75k/yr pensions (so $150k/yr combined) and about 1.5 million in NW. You're delusional if you think you can't become FI before 65 without a college degree.

[By the River]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50. Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20. Most of my friends that didn't go to college had purchased homes by the time they were ~22ish. I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

I guess all my friends are the anomaly then. Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

The thread is funny in where its gone.  The article centers on 5 people.  One has a couple of master's degrees, her husband started college but went into IT before finishing (and was successful), 1 attended college then culinary school, 1 attended massage school and it doesn't mention schooling for the fifth.  So the majority in the article attended college but are now living paycheck to paycheck.  But the discussion has evolved to a question of "do you have to go to college to have a good life?". 

[WhiteTrashCash]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

Why on earth are you reacting this way?

I cannot understand why.

Should be fairly obvious from what I’ve said why I am reacting this way.

[Tigerpine]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

I though the forum was about living well within your means whatever they may be and being more mindful of both your life and every day choices with the goal of being FI or FIRE in the long run.

I certainly didn't make six figures when I started following this forum.  My job still doesn't pay that much.  But I'm well on my way to achieving my financial goals.

Everybody starts somewhere. I started on welfare. But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65, which is less likely in one of those professions.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here about the value of a college education. It is absolutely the single biggest factor out there that transforms the lives of the underclass to becoming middle-class or upper middle-class like me. (Upper class on Hillbilly Mountain.)

It makes me upset when I think of all the bright minds out there who never get to realize their potential because people tell them they are only good enough to go into trades. I often wonder how many people on Hillbilly Mountain could have been the next Nobel Prize Winner or develop the next big tech or go on to create some of the world’s best literature, but they don’t get to accomplish these things because of attitudes toward college education I’ve seen on this thread.

I understand your point and agree that having a college degree is very helpful in getting ahead in the US.  Ultimately, though, it's not the simple fact of having the degree, but what you do with it that matters.  Having a job in the trades doesn't determine a mean existence.  It's the choices you make along the way.  You can start out in the trades, make decent money, and then make good choices to become FIRE.  I've never worked in the trades myself, but I do know people who started in the trades and went on to engineering and/or sales and do quite well for themselves. 

And I think that's the point that others are trying to make, that the trades are not a one way path to oblivion.  Your chances may be better if you have a college degree, but even with a college degree nothing is guaranteed.  It's the choices one makes along the way that add up over time.

For the so-called "average" person, being able to retire at 65-67 with social security and enough money saved up to make it through reasonably comfortably is good enough, I'd wager.  This forum strives for something more, as you say, which is one of its strongest merits.

Seeing people not living up to their potential is very depressing.  Sadly, it's all around us.  But not everyone is cut out for college and formal education.  Some people would actually wither on the vine in such a setting.  There is no one size fits all for humanity.

[Metalcat]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

Why on earth are you reacting this way?

I cannot understand why.

Should be fairly obvious from what I’ve said why I am reacting this way.

No, it really isn't. I'm am truly struggling to understand your reactions and where you've gone with this point. It's not intuitive at all, especially the pattern it's taken in response to people's replies.

I'm rarely confused by people, and you've got me thoroughly confused.

[researcher1]

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals.

The more you post, the more you expose yourself as a smug asshole with contempt and disdain for non-college educated people.

A substantial portion of the US population don't have degrees, yet are able to earn an honest middle-class living working good-paying jobs.
Yet you look down upon them and consider them "low paid peons for their entire lives"?

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

This thread's funny. People pretending that working in the trades is shit work for shit pay and basically everyone is crippled by the time they are 50.

Another thing to keep in mind at least for all my friends is they have far more year's earning a decent living than I do. We're in our mid 30s now and until I was about 28 I never earned more than $30k in a year. Meanwhile they were all earning that by 20.

I find it funny that in a forum started by a person that claims you can live a middle class lifestyle for $25-$30k/yr many are saying that working in the trades is the path to being poor for the rest of your life.

Most of my friends growing up didn't get college degrees and they are all living very solidly middle class lives and like I said my wife didn't get a college degree and she makes what I would consider pretty good money.

+1000.  Well said.

I'm dumbfounded by people like WhiteTrashCash who are so completely oblivious to how people live in this country.
Most of my family, young and old, lack college degrees and live nice long middle-class lives.

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals. If you are fine with that kind of life, then there is always Dave Ramsey.

I though the forum was about living well within your means whatever they may be and being more mindful of both your life and every day choices with the goal of being FI or FIRE in the long run.

I certainly didn't make six figures when I started following this forum.  My job still doesn't pay that much.  But I'm well on my way to achieving my financial goals.

Everybody starts somewhere. I started on welfare. But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65, which is less likely in one of those professions.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here about the value of a college education. It is absolutely the single biggest factor out there that transforms the lives of the underclass to becoming middle-class or upper middle-class like me. (Upper class on Hillbilly Mountain.)

It makes me upset when I think of all the bright minds out there who never get to realize their potential because people tell them they are only good enough to go into trades. I often wonder how many people on Hillbilly Mountain could have been the next Nobel Prize Winner or develop the next big tech or go on to create some of the world’s best literature, but they don’t get to accomplish these things because of attitudes toward college education I’ve seen on this thread.

I've got to echo Malcat.

I'm really confused as to what you're talking about. Do you really think that the views as expressed on this thread are robbing future generations of Nobel Prize winners? What about what anyone is saying is making you think that that line of thought would somehow convince people who are gifted to pursue a trade instead of college? Like seriously, what has made you think that?

Have I benefited tremendously financially from going to college - absolutely. As have numerous of my family and friends. Have numerous of my family and friends made mistakes in going to college - absolutely. The only point on here that I see trying to be made is people explaining that college is not a magic bullet. Yes people go into careers in the trades and make the mistake of wearing their body out, having no exit plan, etc. And yes, an absolute crap ton of people have and are making mistakes of going to college without a plan, incurring tremendous amounts of debt, and coming out with jobs that cannot come close to equalizing with the debt they have incurred (present situation, of course, assuming no massive debt forgiveness). You can make mistakes going into trades. You can make mistakes going to college. Neither one of them is magic. Both can be pathways to lucrative financial situations. Both can end up with financial destitution, and college can make a huge difference but is no guarantee and has its own tremendous potential pitfalls. That's all I believe most people have been trying to say...

[ctuser1]

Everything else being equal (i.e. the child in question has no family business, parent in the same trade etc. etc.), education is the primary driver of social mobility.

http://paa2019.populationassociation.org/uploads/190465

This paper controls for the important factors (socioeconomic status, school quality, geographic), and finds strong causal relationship of education attainment with social mobility.

Where I live, Asians and Jews are obsessed with sending their kids to college. And these are not just the rich/educated Asians and Jews, but semi-educated parents like the mom-and-pop takeout joint I often frequent with two small kids going to the same middle school as my daughter, or my auto mechanic whose son told me his dream is to get to MIT someday.

I don't think it'll be a bad idea to instill such cultural obsession in the Hillbilly Mountains. To me at least, it seems that is kinda'/sorta' what WhiteTrashCash is advocating for.

[GuitarStv]

This forum is about making six figures and spending low five figures so you can be financially independent and retire early. It’s not about being a low paid peon for your entire life. It’s not about risking your health for a low paid job. It’s not about gambling your future on a job that most likely isn’t going to help you reach your financial goals.

As a lifelong low paid peon who has never made 6 figures (not even Canadian!) I'm not sure what to think of this comment.

Am I failing at life, at being a university grad, at the forum, or all of the above?

[researcher1]

But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here.

It makes me upset when I think of all the bright minds out there who never get to realize their potential because people tell them they are only good enough to go into trades. I often wonder how many people on Hillbilly Mountain could have been the next Nobel Prize Winner or develop the next big tech or go on to create some of the world’s best literature, but they don’t get to accomplish these things because of attitudes toward college education I’ve seen on this thread.

You are really embarrassing yourself.
"Bright minds" will "never get to realize their potential" because they didn't get a college degree? 

They won't "develop the next big tech"?
Have you ever heard of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg?

Can't create the "world's best literature?
Have you ever heard of Harper Lee, William Faulkner, Maya Angelou?

Can't be the next Nobel Prize Winner?
There have been 76 Nobel Prize winners that had no academic degree through the year 2000.

[mizzourah2006]

But if you just want to get to the level of average with a retirement at 65 and living off social security and a small amount stashed in a 401k, then what’s the point? That’s what a career in the trades will get you at best — if you can physically make it to 65.

I’m giving people a dose of reality here.

It makes me upset when I think of all the bright minds out there who never get to realize their potential because people tell them they are only good enough to go into trades. I often wonder how many people on Hillbilly Mountain could have been the next Nobel Prize Winner or develop the next big tech or go on to create some of the world’s best literature, but they don’t get to accomplish these things because of attitudes toward college education I’ve seen on this thread.

You are really embarrassing yourself.
"Bright minds" will "never get to realize their potential" because they didn't get a college degree? 

They won't "develop the next big tech"?
Have you ever heard of Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg?

Can't create the "world's best literature?
Have you ever heard of Harper Lee, William Faulkner, Maya Angelou?

Can't be the next Nobel Prize Winner?
There have been 76 Nobel Prize winners that had no academic degree through the year 2000.

Also let's not forget I didn't see anyone express a negative attitude towards college education in this thread. Just simply stating you can make a good living and still get to FI without one. But on the other side we have WTC saying if you don't get a college degree your only future is as a low paid peon. I have a PhD and it ended up being fairly lucrative for me, but I'm not going to pretend I'm somehow a better human being than my wife or friends for that. I honestly think I got pretty lucky in that things I ended up being interested in made me unique in my field, if not I would be making maybe $20-$30k more per year than my friends in the trades and I had to give up 9 years of earnings that they didn't.

[ender]

Everything else being equal (i.e. the child in question has no family business, parent in the same trade etc. etc.), education is the primary driver of social mobility.

http://paa2019.populationassociation.org/uploads/190465

This paper controls for the important factors (socioeconomic status, school quality, geographic), and finds strong causal relationship of education attainment with social mobility.

Are you sure you quoted the right paper here?

I don't understand your conclusion at all based on reading the paper.  What you wrote isn't at all what that paper was getting at.

Just some quotes on the conclusions:
 

For example, results from this paper suggest that proximity to metropolitan areas with large amounts of colleges and universities may be responsible for a large portion of the educational advantage of the children of Korean, Chinese, and Indian Americans.

...
First, these findings demonstrate that Asian American immigrants are generally selected on high levels of socioeconomic status. There is, however, substantial heterogeneity in this selection by ethnicity/country of origin

I have no idea why you chose to quote this paper which doesn't lead to either of your conclusions at all.

[ctuser1]

Everything else being equal (i.e. the child in question has no family business, parent in the same trade etc. etc.), education is the primary driver of social mobility.

http://paa2019.populationassociation.org/uploads/190465

This paper controls for the important factors (socioeconomic status, school quality, geographic), and finds strong causal relationship of education attainment with social mobility.

Are you sure you quoted the right paper here?

I don't understand your conclusion at all based on reading the paper.  What you wrote isn't at all what that paper was getting at.

Just some quotes on the conclusions:
 

For example, results from this paper suggest that proximity to metropolitan areas with large amounts of colleges and universities may be responsible for a large portion of the educational advantage of the children of Korean, Chinese, and Indian Americans.

...
First, these findings demonstrate that Asian American immigrants are generally selected on high levels of socioeconomic status. There is, however, substantial heterogeneity in this selection by ethnicity/country of origin

I have no idea why you chose to quote this paper which doesn't lead to either of your conclusions at all.

Admittedly I did not spend a lot of time reading the paper - but just the abstract and "discussion and conclusion" sections.

These portions caught my eye:

First, analysis revealed that the children of Korean, Chinese, Indian, and Vietnamese American immigrants, but not other Asian American groups, obtained considerably higher levels of educational attainment than 2.5+ generation whites. This pattern persisted even after controlling for sociodemographic and school/geographic characteristics for the children of Koreans, Chinese, and Vietnamese immigrants. In general, more assimilated Asian American ethnic groups (Filipinos and Japanese Americans) obtained lower levels of education than less assimilated ethnic groups (e.g., Korean, Chinese, Indian, and Vietnamese Americans), supporting contemporary assimilation theory.

My interpretation: "less assimilated" Asians (i.e. those preserving their "native" culture) show high education attainment.

Second, the analysis examined educational mobility patterns among these Asian American ethnic-nativity groups. Although a strong parent-offspring education gradient was observed for 2.5+ generation whites, this gradient is weak to non-existent for the children of Korean, Vietnamese, and Chinese American immigrants. Thus, these three ethnic-nativity groups have high levels of educational attainment and mobility, offering partial support for Lee and Zhou’s theory.

My interpretation: "less assimilated" Asians (with notable exception of Indians) show high education mobility even for parents that have lower education themselves.

The estimates for the children of Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese immigrants converge (B = 1.2-1.7) in the hypothesized model, providing indirect support for the existence of a common schema. Common success schemas among Asian American immigrants and their children link education to success and inter-socioeconomic social networks may lead to a weaker parent-offspring education gradient relative to whites. The weak gradient suggests that materials and schemas associated
with ethnicity-nativity make up for human capital deficits. This pattern does not likely stem—primarily—from increased allocation of financial resources to education (see Table A5 in appendix). In contrast, whites—and other race/ethnic-nativity groups—may have reduced educational mobility because high levels of education are not viewed as the only means to success, and inter-socioeconomic social networks may be less common than among Asian Americans.

My interpretation: Cultural impetus for educational -> socioeconomic mobility.

Don't you think this paper at least supports a more watered down version of my claim? There is a cultural component to higher educational attainment. But the part 2 of my claim, education -> economic mobility, is not examined in this paper. So my statement "finds strong causal relationship of education attainment with social mobility" is misleading in that context.

So yes, that part of the claim likely requires further support (which I am feeling too lazy right now to research).

Or, am I misunderstanding something? I find social sciences to be a little confusing, so that is possible as well! 

[Luck12]

If a college degree was the key to wealth, why the big push to have student loans paid back by the taxpayer?

Average salary for someone with a degree is about $50k.  At a 50 hour work week (lets be honest, 50 hours+ is normal for many college degree'd professionals) you'd only need an hourly rate of $17.50 to exceed that.  That's a basic, button pushing, manufacturing floor job.  My maintenance techs are all clearing 60k, some significantly more, and this is all at the lowest paying plant I've worked at, others had many hourly employees making 22-26/hr, add in OT and you're right there for your 80k "middle class" income.

Where the F did you get the 50K figure?  Because it's just flat out wrong!  Seems like some of you people just like to make shit up, well I'll call you out on it. 

Below is from the BLS, median for those with only a bachelor's degree is 61K (1,173 median weekly * 52) and that was from 2017, bump it up another 5K at least for wage inflation and remember that doesn't even include people with Master's and Doctorates.

And the NE link shows that 2020 median for those with only a bachelor's is 65K.   If you include ALL college grads including those with a master's or higher that would get you to around 70K.  Compare that to HS only median income of 38K or some college but no bachelor's of 43K.  Not to mention the lower unemployment rate associated with earning at least a bachelor's. 

Granted those with at least a bachelor's on average have higher IQ's, come from wealthier backgrounds, etc so the differences reflect that to some degree but I doubt it would fully explain the differences. 

While WTC was wrongly absolute about this it's fucking clear that what he says is true in general. 

https://www.northeastern.edu/bachelors-completion/news/average-salary-by-education-level/

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm

[MudPuppy]

I have two anecdotes here.

I grew up in a socioeconomically disadvantaged family of origin. In school I was wondering where meals and shelter were coming from, not about colleges. I never thought college was attainable for me.  My state instituted a lottery funded scholarship program. It was the only thing that made me bive college was real for me. The ability to go to school changed my entire life trajectory.

My BIL has no education after high school. He worked for a landscape and irrigation company that his dad also worked for. A few years ago he decided to split off and try his luck with his own company. He pulls 250k a year at this point. He is one of the smartest and hardest working people I have ever known, and a great friend to boot. His story isn’t everyone’s story, but his solo income is more than double my household’s income.

[Metalcat]

If a college degree was the key to wealth, why the big push to have student loans paid back by the taxpayer?

Average salary for someone with a degree is about $50k.  At a 50 hour work week (lets be honest, 50 hours+ is normal for many college degree'd professionals) you'd only need an hourly rate of $17.50 to exceed that.  That's a basic, button pushing, manufacturing floor job.  My maintenance techs are all clearing 60k, some significantly more, and this is all at the lowest paying plant I've worked at, others had many hourly employees making 22-26/hr, add in OT and you're right there for your 80k "middle class" income.

Where the F did you get the 50K figure?  Because it's just flat out wrong!  Seems like some of you people just like to make shit up, well I'll call you out on it. 

Below is from the BLS, median for those with only a bachelor's degree is 61K (1,173 median weekly * 52) and that was from 2017, bump it up another 5K at least for wage inflation and remember that doesn't even include people with Master's and Doctorates.

And the NE link shows that 2020 median for those with only a bachelor's is 65K.   If you include ALL college grads including those with a master's or higher that would get you to around 70K.  Compare that to HS only median income of 38K or some college but no bachelor's of 43K.  Not to mention the lower unemployment rate associated with earning at least a bachelor's. 

Granted those with at least a bachelor's on average have higher IQ, come from wealthier backgrounds, etc so the differences reflect that to some degree but I doubt it would fully explain the differences. 

While WTC was wrongly absolute about this it's fucking clear that what he says is true in general. 

https://www.northeastern.edu/bachelors-completion/news/average-salary-by-education-level/

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm

Literally no one is saying that on average university grads don't do better.

No one is arguing that.

What WTC originally said was that one can only be successful financially with a university degree and that is what many of us take issue with because it is simply not even remotely consistent with reality.

As for why people who are educated do well? That's a whole other question. Do middle class kids do well because they're educated or because they're middle class kids?

In a society where there's enormous pressure to go to school, is it possible that there's a correlation between the people who don't and why they don't tend to succeed as much professionally?

I used my family and social circle as an example of a lot of people who have done very well in business, many of them without degrees, but these were not working class people pulling themselves up by the bootstraps. These are people raised by successful entrepreneurs who grew up learning how to run successful businesses, this is lifelong business mentorship.

Why do I know so much about running small and medium businesses that I can command a high fee for telling others how to do it? Because by my teen years, both of my parents were very successful in business and also earned extremely high fees for telling people how to manage their businesses and finances.

As I said, I worked for a guy with a highschool degree and some on the job training in finance, who was telling very rich people how to handle their money, and making much more than most of his clients. He made fun of me for how throttled my earnings were as a medical professional, how "non scalable" my chosen work was. I was set to make WAY more money working for him, but I wasn't money hungry enough to enjoy it, I loved my work so wasn't willing to leave it altogether.

Is that the norm? Obviously not, but my point is that coming from a successful family has a huge impact in terms of outcomes.

Is education probably the best bet for someone who comes from a working class background to break the patterns they grew up with? Absolutely. I also don't think anyone would argue that either.

However, that does not negate the concept that many people can make very, very good money without needing a university degree.

Hell, we just had a whole thread about software bootcamps where a bunch of people weighed in that they were very successful despite not having a CS degree.

You simply cannot make an argument that because on *average* that educated people make more, that an education is therefore a prerequisite for financial success.

That's just fucking nonsense. Period.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

A lot of the things being pointed out as physical wear and tear from various trades jobs sound like exercise to me. Isn't fitness and health a big part of the MMM lifestyle? Carrying a 75lb toilet or having to work in a hot attic is surely something that a fit, Mustachian should be able to do no? How is doing something like that occasionally at work significantly more taxing on your body than routinely lifting weights or cycling several miles to work? Shouldn't a good Mustachian be exercising in order to be more capable in their day to day lives anyway? Your body is designed to do work a lot more than it's designed to sit in a cube staring at a screen. I feel like we're just trading one set of physical problems later in life for another in a lot of cases.

There's a difference between doing heavy lifting in a gym for 1 hour every 2 days with good nutrition otherwise and doing repetitive awkward physical labour for several hours a day, every day.

Also there's a difference in doing things at a rate you like for your own enjoyment versus doing labour as part of a job where you're racing against the clock.

[ender]

Don't you think this paper at least supports a more watered down version of my claim? There is a cultural component to higher educational attainment. But the part 2 of my claim, education -> economic mobility, is not examined in this paper. So my statement "finds strong causal relationship of education attainment with social mobility" is misleading in that context.

Where in the paper is there an association between education and economic mobility?

Both your claims were around economic mobility being the "causal relationship" and "primary driver" for economic mobility.

I don't see how the paper supports your claim in any watered down version, when the paper you cite is literally titled "Educational Mobility Among the Children of Asian American Immigrants" (emphasis mine) and not "Economic mobility."

If the paper, for example, even examined the relationship between education and economic mobility then you could say there's some relevance to what you picked.

But you should most definitely not just pick a random research paper a google keyword search matched, use it as evidence without even reading the title, and assume your point is backed up by research.