Author Topic: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire  (Read 6105 times)

RH

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Situation:

House is paid off
$400K in 401K
Want to take 2 years off work in the near future to relax

Seems like if I want to do this, I have to save up 2 years worth of expenses. Would be nice if I could instead get it from just taking out 4% from investments...but I can't do that...unless I pay penalties...or do a Roth conversion ladder (which takes 5 years).

Seems like with all the hard work I've done with saving and paying off the house, I still have to work?! Am I missing something?

rpr

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2017, 11:11:16 AM »
Also, how old are you. If >55, then you can withdraw from 401k's without penalties.

Retirement requires planning especially for cash flow. Also, if withdrawals needed are small, it may still be worth it to pay the 10% penalty since taxes may be small as well.     

dandarc

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2017, 11:11:49 AM »
What is 2 years of expenses?

If it is low enough, paying 10% penalty may not be so bad.

You could also open a HELOC or similar and use your home's equity to fund the sabbatical and pay a bit of interest.  Or sell the house.

How long has this 2 year break been on your radar?  Looks to me like you were preparing for a standard ER - work till you have enough dough, then quit.  If you're now changing your plans to "take 2 years off now to recharge", even though you don't have the stache to support indefinitely, then you have to prepare differently - your past preparation sets you up for your past plans, but not the new one.

Eric

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2017, 11:23:09 AM »
You can also consider 72(t) withdrawals from your 401k to avoid the penalty.

Agreed, but only if he's actually going to retire.  Since you can't stop those 72(t) withdrawals until age 59.5, if he goes back to work after 2 years, it's probably going to cost more in taxes during the subsequent years then it would cost to just pay the 10% penalty on 2 years worth of spending.  Of course, without real numbers from the OP, it's all just speculation.

FIreDrill

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2017, 11:24:36 AM »
I would look I into mortgaging the home for 80% LTV and then investing that 80% in the market.  Use the 80% you get from the mortgage to cover your expenses+mortgage over at least the next 5 years.  During those 5 years you would have no earned income which means you would be in the perfect spot to do a Roth conversion ladder.

This is actually an approach that I have considered doing when I FIRE.  Assuming all assets are tied up in tax sheltered accounts and I have enough equity to refinance and pull 5-7 years of living expenses out.

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Classical_Liberal

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 12:00:51 PM »
What is 2 years of expenses?

If it is low enough, paying 10% penalty may not be so bad.


Absolutely this.  Remember, no income for the two years means you will pay a very low tax rate (assuming reasonable expenses).  You can likely withdraw, pay the penalty, and still come in well under a 15% net tax rate.   

Aggie1999

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 12:13:21 PM »
Are you currently living the mustachian lifestyle. If not, start. IF you saved for two years, putting the funds in your Roth 401k/IRA and in taxable accounts then you could probably easy quite the work force for a couple years and live off those funds. Of course if it was me I'd work for another 5 or so years then retire for good.

Cycling Stache

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2017, 01:02:47 PM »
What is 2 years of expenses?

If it is low enough, paying 10% penalty may not be so bad.


Absolutely this.  Remember, no income for the two years means you will pay a very low tax rate (assuming reasonable expenses).  You can likely withdraw, pay the penalty, and still come in well under a 15% net tax rate.

Why do this?  A home equity loan or line of credit is likely to be 5% or less.  That's less than the 10% penalty, plus deductible in the United States if you itemize.  And you avoid the income tax on the money you take out of the 401(k).

If you're determined to do this before saving money in taxable accounts, get a HELOC.  Pick one that has no costs to you up front, or math out the costs versus the interest rate you'll be charged.  You only pay the interest on the amount you've borrowed, so long as it's borrowed.

Or start saving now and push your overage into an after-tax savings account or something similar, then take off when you've saved up 2 years' worth of expenses.

Classical_Liberal

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2017, 01:45:51 PM »
What is 2 years of expenses?

If it is low enough, paying 10% penalty may not be so bad.


Absolutely this.  Remember, no income for the two years means you will pay a very low tax rate (assuming reasonable expenses).  You can likely withdraw, pay the penalty, and still come in well under a 15% net tax rate.

Why do this?  A home equity loan or line of credit is likely to be 5% or less.  That's less than the 10% penalty, plus deductible in the United States if you itemize.  And you avoid the income tax on the money you take out of the 401(k).

If you're determined to do this before saving money in taxable accounts, get a HELOC.  Pick one that has no costs to you up front, or math out the costs versus the interest rate you'll be charged.  You only pay the interest on the amount you've borrowed, so long as it's borrowed.

Or start saving now and push your overage into an after-tax savings account or something similar, then take off when you've saved up 2 years' worth of expenses.

You are assuming the OP will never have ANY tax burden on the sheltered accounts.  While this is a possibility visa via Go Curry Cracker, many simply do not have enough years left before SS to convert to Roth's.  Not everyone has been planning for ER since age 22. Some (including the OP?) have been planning for a traditional retirement, hence have too many deferred assets at too late a time in life. At some point, the proverbial bullet must be bitten.  If OP wants two years off now, without income, a 10 percent penalty is a minor tax burden vs paying interest on a variable rate home equity line (recency bias, rates will not stay low forever and CAPE is high suggesting lower 10 yr returns) for an indeterminate number of years AND having to pay a potentially higher tax rate on the deferred account later anyway. 

More specifics r.e. "the plan" for OP are needed to optimize.

rpr

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2017, 01:52:30 PM »
This thread was started by the OP last year.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/payoff-house!/

Then, the OP had $200K in cash and chose to pay off the house. I did not read the entire thread. But given OPs current interest in taking a break from work it would have been better to have kept that money liquid.



Classical_Liberal

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2017, 02:03:01 PM »
This thread was started by the OP last year.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/payoff-house!/

Then, the OP had $200K in cash and chose to pay off the house. I did not read the entire thread. But given OPs current interest in taking a break from work it would have been better to have kept that money liquid.

Woe the tangled webs we weave :)

No offense OP, I dont know what I'm gonna want next week vs next year, plans change.

Goldielocks

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2017, 02:13:18 PM »
If you are MMM follower, then your expenses versus income are likely very low.   If you have a 75% savings rate, you only need to plan to work for 6 months to save enough, now that you are no longer paying off a house or adding to long term retirement savings.

Or -- as other said, just get a loan for the amount you need to tide you over..

runewell

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2017, 02:23:54 PM »
Situation:

House is paid off
$400K in 401K
Want to take 2 years off work in the near future to relax


Who doesn't want to do that?  But it doesn't sound like you are in a position to. 

Maybe you should tell us more about your situation and why you should even consider taking two years off.  Make sure to include in your reasons why not to. 

Then, get back to work.

RH

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 03:13:12 PM »
I think the lesson to all MMM's is that you can be a millionaire and not be able to retire if you haven't structured your cash flow correctly. Many posts on the forum here preach to maximize your 401K and then Roth....but if you can't do both and want to retire early, you should be careful and set also aside funds to bridge the gap between when you can access the 401K funds/roth conversion ladder.

It does sound odd, but maybe I did make a mistake by paying off the house and having a fully funded retirement account?!! I like simple...and doing this sounded very simple to me.

I'll just suck it up and save until I have 2 years worth of expenses saved. Shouldn't take too long.


Eric

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 03:23:49 PM »
I think the lesson to all MMM's is that you can be a millionaire and not be able to retire if you haven't structured your cash flow correctly. Many posts on the forum here preach to maximize your 401K and then Roth....but if you can't do both and want to retire early, you should be careful and set also aside funds to bridge the gap between when you can access the 401K funds/roth conversion ladder.

No, because if you were actually retiring, you could use the 72(t) withdrawals to avoid any penalties and have the cash flow you need.  While having funds outside of retirement accounts makes it easier, it's hardly necessary.

rpr

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 03:25:53 PM »
I think the lesson to all MMM's is that you can be a millionaire and not be able to retire if you haven't structured your cash flow correctly. Many posts on the forum here preach to maximize your 401K and then Roth....but if you can't do both and want to retire early, you should be careful and set also aside funds to bridge the gap between when you can access the 401K funds/roth conversion ladder.

It does sound odd, but maybe I did make a mistake by paying off the house and having a fully funded retirement account?!! I like simple...and doing this sounded very simple to me.

I'll just suck it up and save until I have 2 years worth of expenses saved. Shouldn't take too long.

More than likely salaried people who become millionaires (via saving out of their employment incomes) at an early age are likely to have a significant fraction in ordinary taxable accounts. This is because of reasonably low contribution limits ($18K for the 401k). In your case, it appears that you too did save significantly outside of 401k accounts. You just ended up paying off your house.

And as a number of people have pointed out, even if you have a significant amount in 401Ks, it is still possible to retire early by making withdrawals and paying penalties, provided your expenses are low.

At this point, with $400K in 401k accounts, unless your desired withdrawal amounts including taxes and penalties are below $16K (=400/25), you are not in a position to retire early.

rpr

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2017, 03:35:59 PM »
I think the lesson to all MMM's is that you can be a millionaire and not be able to retire if you haven't structured your cash flow correctly. Many posts on the forum here preach to maximize your 401K and then Roth....but if you can't do both and want to retire early, you should be careful and set also aside funds to bridge the gap between when you can access the 401K funds/roth conversion ladder.

No, because if you were actually retiring, you could use the 72(t) withdrawals to avoid any penalties and have the cash flow you need.  While having funds outside of retirement accounts makes it easier, it's hardly necessary.
Indeed, if you were to plug in $400K into a 72t calculator, then the annual withdrawal amounts are about $16K (age 45) and about $17K (age 50). No penalties and no federal taxes, assuming no other sources of income. The only drawback with a 72t is that withdrawals cannot be stopped and must continue for 5 years or till age 59.5, whichever is longer.
 

RH

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2017, 03:51:35 PM »
72T? Maybe that is the missing link I have been seeking. My annual expenses are only $15K year. I'll have to research this. Maybe instead of taking 2 years off, I could be close to retiring.


rpr

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2017, 03:55:16 PM »
72T? Maybe that is the missing link I have been seeking. My annual expenses are only $15K year. I'll have to research this. Maybe instead of taking 2 years off, I could be close to retiring.
At the risk of digression, just make sure that you take expenses properly into account. A big one is obviously health insurance. 

moof

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 04:03:29 PM »
I think the lesson to all MMM's is that you can be a millionaire and not be able to retire if you haven't structured your cash flow correctly. Many posts on the forum here preach to maximize your 401K and then Roth....but if you can't do both and want to retire early, you should be careful and set also aside funds to bridge the gap between when you can access the 401K funds/roth conversion ladder.

It does sound odd, but maybe I did make a mistake by paying off the house and having a fully funded retirement account?!! I like simple...and doing this sounded very simple to me.

I'll just suck it up and save until I have 2 years worth of expenses saved. Shouldn't take too long.

Even if you take the 10% penalty, you are still way ahead maxing your 401k vs. taxable.  Why lock in a 25% income tax on that money so avoid a 10% penalty?  In my case I also avoid state income taxes, so it is 9%+25% I avoid.

sirdoug007

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 04:24:57 PM »
How much per year do you need an what is your filing status?  If you are pulling out a small amount of money you are going to pay nearly $0 in income tax.

So even with the "penalty" you are only paying a 10% tax rate, which ain't bad.  It's not like you have no access to your money.  You just have to pay 10% on it.

Cassie

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 04:38:07 PM »
If you are not working health insurance is going to be a big expense.  We pay out in premiums almost what you spend in an entire year.

Cycling Stache

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Re: Paid off House, fully funded retirement acct, yet can't retire
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 07:11:58 PM »
What is 2 years of expenses?

If it is low enough, paying 10% penalty may not be so bad.


Absolutely this.  Remember, no income for the two years means you will pay a very low tax rate (assuming reasonable expenses).  You can likely withdraw, pay the penalty, and still come in well under a 15% net tax rate.

Why do this?  A home equity loan or line of credit is likely to be 5% or less.  That's less than the 10% penalty, plus deductible in the United States if you itemize.  And you avoid the income tax on the money you take out of the 401(k).

If you're determined to do this before saving money in taxable accounts, get a HELOC.  Pick one that has no costs to you up front, or math out the costs versus the interest rate you'll be charged.  You only pay the interest on the amount you've borrowed, so long as it's borrowed.

Or start saving now and push your overage into an after-tax savings account or something similar, then take off when you've saved up 2 years' worth of expenses.

You are assuming the OP will never have ANY tax burden on the sheltered accounts.  While this is a possibility visa via Go Curry Cracker, many simply do not have enough years left before SS to convert to Roth's.  Not everyone has been planning for ER since age 22. Some (including the OP?) have been planning for a traditional retirement, hence have too many deferred assets at too late a time in life. At some point, the proverbial bullet must be bitten.  If OP wants two years off now, without income, a 10 percent penalty is a minor tax burden vs paying interest on a variable rate home equity line (recency bias, rates will not stay low forever and CAPE is high suggesting lower 10 yr returns) for an indeterminate number of years AND having to pay a potentially higher tax rate on the deferred account later anyway. 

More specifics r.e. "the plan" for OP are needed to optimize.

Not sure about this.  A HELOC is at 4-5% right now.  That's well below the 10% penalty, and it's not going over 10% in the next 4 years, which is presumably how long it would take OP to pay it off.  His current 401(k) balance, while good, does not suggest he'd be forced beyond the 15% tax bracket until well into retirement (if at all), so paying a lower interest rate now (half--current HELOC rate versus 10% penalty) and deferring the potential 15-25% income tax 30 years or so is almost certainly a good call.

OP, if you make good money, fully intend to return to work in 2 years, and can pay off the amount you spend the next 2 years in the 2 working years following that, strongly consider getting a HELOC before your leave work (you need to show income!).  You're taking a 5% loan to finance your two years off.  In essence, you're just undoing the decision you made to pay off the house, with what is effectively a slightly higher mortgage rate.

Of course, if you have any doubt about your ability to return to work, make good pay, and pay off the 2 year balance quickly, then don't do that.  But if so, you probably aren't in great position to take time off anyway unless you're willing to significantly defer your retirement when you return to work.