Ontario electricity prices

[mrgrieves]

Any fellow Ontarians, what are your Hydro bills like?

I live in a ~ 2,000 sqft house, with wife and 2 young kids. My monthly bills tends to be in ~ $170 range (non-summer A/C months). This is after the 8% rebate.

The only thing I can think of that is wasteful is the electric water heater the previous owner had installed. Been considering replacing it with gas but don't know if the math makes sense, and also just haven't gotten around to it.

[Syonyk]

What's your monthly consumption in kWh?  That's a much better metric to compare on, because power prices vary greatly around the planet.

[mrgrieves]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

[Laserjet3051]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

[Syonyk]

See? :)  Now people can compare use regardless of price.

Laserjet - how is your water heated and what kind of stove do you have?

My house (2000 sq ft recent manufactured, Energy Star, pretty well insulated) is entirely electric, and my usage is between 28kWh and 70kWh per day - 28 in the limited climate control months, 70 in Jan/Feb which were brutally cold for the area and involved use of the backup coils a good bit (still not enough to justify the cost of a propane dual fuel setup, though - our power is cheap).  It looks like a "no climate control" day runs around 18kWh.

However, we're pumping our own water from a 300' well, heating it with resistive coils (at some point I'll put some solar hot water collectors on the roof to cover hot water most of the year), and all climate control is electric.  It's a heat pump, but still.

At some point I'll get an energy doctor installed to keep better track of what's using power, but at the low power prices we're paying ($0.08/kWh for the first bunch, a bit more for the upper usage levels), it's simply not worth that much to reduce power use more.  We don't have natural gas in the area, so if I wanted to move away from the heat pump, I'd have to install propane, and the $5k or so for a propane furnace and then a tank on top of it won't be covered by the reduced heating costs in the winter.

[Dora the Homebody]

I'm in northern Ontario.  My last bill shows metered usage 776.15 for 31 day period (billed usage 814.11) which was $126. 1500sqft house with 2 adults.  We don't heat with electricity.  We are on a well so it uses power to run the water pump.

In the winter it was up as high as $160 but I need to run a water trough de-icer for the horses and heated water dish for the chickens, plus the electric fencing and dusk-to-dawn lights on the barn. 

We have an electric water heater.

[RetiredAt63]

Time of use affects electricity prices a lot.  You can look on your bill and see how your usage is for each category.  Avoiding peak prices makes a huge difference.
http://www.hydroone.com/TOU/Pages/default.aspx

[Dora the Homebody]

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

Dehumidifiers burn through a lot of juice, too.

[Laserjet3051]

See? :)  Now people can compare use regardless of price.

Laserjet - how is your water heated and what kind of stove do you have?

My house (2000 sq ft recent manufactured, Energy Star, pretty well insulated) is entirely electric, and my usage is between 28kWh and 70kWh per day - 28 in the limited climate control months, 70 in Jan/Feb which were brutally cold for the area and involved use of the backup coils a good bit (still not enough to justify the cost of a propane dual fuel setup, though - our power is cheap).  It looks like a "no climate control" day runs around 18kWh.

However, we're pumping our own water from a 300' well, heating it with resistive coils (at some point I'll put some solar hot water collectors on the roof to cover hot water most of the year), and all climate control is electric.  It's a heat pump, but still.

At some point I'll get an energy doctor installed to keep better track of what's using power, but at the low power prices we're paying ($0.08/kWh for the first bunch, a bit more for the upper usage levels), it's simply not worth that much to reduce power use more.  We don't have natural gas in the area, so if I wanted to move away from the heat pump, I'd have to install propane, and the $5k or so for a propane furnace and then a tank on top of it won't be covered by the reduced heating costs in the winter.

water heater and stove are both nat gas; super cheap per btu here. otoh, our cost per kwh is one of the highest in the country, so i try to keep electricity use to an absolute minimum

[daverobev]

Two young children certainly makes a difference. The amount of baths and laundry (cloth nappies) we run... Plus the weather is not being kind in terms of line drying yet.

We used to be less than 10 kWh/day, now we're at 20. It should go down once we're past the nappy stage...

[The Fake Cheap]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

Don't forget the OP is in Ontario.  If he/she is in N Ontario, not much point in comparing with SoCal, especially March & April which are still basically winter months.

[daverobev]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

Don't forget the OP is in Ontario.  If he/she is in N Ontario, not much point in comparing with SoCal, especially March & April which are still basically winter months.

Doesn't even have to be N Ontario. We had snow here a week ago. Near Ottawa. (Now it wasn't heavy snow or anything but still).

"Basically" no. Actually.

[Laserjet3051]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

Don't forget the OP is in Ontario.  If he/she is in N Ontario, not much point in comparing with SoCal, especially March & April which are still basically winter months.

Doesn't even have to be N Ontario. We had snow here a week ago. Near Ottawa. (Now it wasn't heavy snow or anything but still).

"Basically" no. Actually.

Think this is the key. Even if it were 100 below zero here, wouldnt impact our electric bill as home heat is nat gas. I think the point may be that home heating use electricity can be very expensive, with cheaper alternatives available in some cases.

[Dora the Homebody]

There is no way OP is heating a 2000sqft house with electricity and only paying $170/month.

[daverobev]

good point! For April, 877 kwh used over a 36 day period (24.36 kwh/day), but was out of town for a few of those days. For March, 797 kwh used over a 26 day period (30.65 kwh/day). And for Feb, 875 kwh over a 29 day period (30.17 kwh/day). So around the 30 kwh/day point seems to the average.

30.17 kwh/ day is an insanely high electric usage. We live in a 2100 ft2 house and consume between 7-10 kwh / day in non-AC months which is almost all 12 months. We only use the AC a few weeks each year and even then, our monthly usage is only marginally higher than that reported above. How many swimming pools and jacuzzis are you running over there?

Don't forget the OP is in Ontario.  If he/she is in N Ontario, not much point in comparing with SoCal, especially March & April which are still basically winter months.

Doesn't even have to be N Ontario. We had snow here a week ago. Near Ottawa. (Now it wasn't heavy snow or anything but still).

"Basically" no. Actually.

Think this is the key. Even if it were 100 below zero here, wouldnt impact our electric bill as home heat is nat gas. I think the point may be that home heating use electricity can be very expensive, with cheaper alternatives available in some cases.

Not true. When it is cold out, even if you heat with gas (which we do), several things happen:

Laundry tends to be tumble dried rather than line dried (now, if it was a clear blue sunny day I would hang stuff out if there wasn't TOO much snow between the back door and the line, but most of the time...). Plus you tend to wear more clothes, which means there is more laundry. Assumes you have electric rather than gas dryer.

The water going in to the hot water tank is cold, which means the hot water tank has to work harder. Again of course this assumes you have an electric hot water tank, which you may not.

Your furnace fan runs a lot (minor)

It is darker longer, so the lights are on more (minor)

If it is REALLY cold you may use your engine block heater to pre-warm the... engine block (the oil, so that the engine is much easier to start). Again, minor.

Now, in the summer if you're running a/c all day... it'll probably be cheaper in the winter. YMMV. It gets pretty hot here in the summer, and I have a 'hang out' window a/c as well as a movable one. Winter is definitely more expensive than summer.

[Syonyk]

There is no way OP is heating a 2000sqft house with electricity and only paying $170/month.

I was this winter. It was about $200/mo in power with cheap power and a heat pump.

[human]

I live in a 1000 square foot condo in Ottawa, the bill is usually under 100 bucks. We have gas heat but electric fridge, stove-oven and hot water. I swapped the shower head to one that pushes 1 gpm only and tried line drying for a couple of months. This got the bill under 10kwh a day for a while but I started using the dryer again We average 400kwhs a month now.

Oh and we have a dishwasher and use it every other day or so. We have a smart meter and I can tell the culprits are showers (even with 1gpm shower, but much better than before), dishwasher and dryer. We also have at least 1-2kwh in just phantom stuff, DVRs take a lot of juice when left on all day. My gf would kill me if I turned it off  the DVR during the day and forgot to turn it on at night so it stays on.

So the trend is, line dry, use minimal hot water and try to wash dishes by hand, turn off phantom loads.

[Dora the Homebody]

There is no way OP is heating a 2000sqft house with electricity and only paying $170/month.

I was this winter. It was about $200/mo in power with cheap power and a heat pump.

Where? (And what's a heat pump?) If that is honestly do-able in my climate I'd switch my house to electric heat in a heartbeat!  We heat with oil and it costs a bloody fortune. 

[Syonyk]

It's like a reversible air conditioner.

They work down to about 0F. Below that you need a furnace or the electric backup coils.

[Dora the Homebody]

It's like a reversible air conditioner.

They work down to about 0F. Below that you need a furnace or the electric backup coils.

Hmm.  That would be at least several weeks out of the winter (where temps don't even get above 0F).  I should look into this, though.  I've never heard of heating a house this way.

[wienerdog]

There is no way OP is heating a 2000sqft house with electricity and only paying $170/month.

I heat 2400 sqft on all electric on a not so well insulated house.  Used 1782 kWhs from mid Dec to mid Jan this year (1156 heating degree days)
.  That was the largest winter bill at $200.70 total bill.  Actual electric charges were $187.  This also includes lighting, cooking, hot water and water supply.  Average about 1000 kWh a month for the last 2.5 years and ~$125/month for the bill.

Would like to install around a 10kW DC solar system and it should cover it but really should do envelope upgrades first as that is much cheaper.  Also can't sell excess back to the power company so should make it as small as possible to cover my usage.

[human]

125$ for 1000kwh in Ontario?? we pay 85-90 for 400-450kwh. I know there are peak hours but we do a lot of stuff off peak.

[wienerdog]

125$ for 1000kwh in Ontario?? we pay 85-90 for 400-450kwh. I know there are peak hours but we do a lot of stuff off peak.

Sorry I am in the US.  Didn't mean to imply I was in Ontario.  I am not familiar with residential but I know the commercial Ontario peak rates seem very odd at how they bill.  Our electricity rate goes down as you use more.  In the winter I hit the third and final tier but I don't use that many kWh in that tier.

[human]

Weird that you get a discount for using more, they try to discourage use here. Prices are the same same for all residential regardless of the amount consumed, prices are based on time of day. They should start charging more for those that hit a certain threshold if you ask me.

[Prairie Stash]

Weird that you get a discount for using more, they try to discourage use here. Prices are the same same for all residential regardless of the amount consumed, prices are based on time of day. They should start charging more for those that hit a certain threshold if you ask me.

The energy company sells energy. Why would they charge more to their best customers and less to their worst customers?

If you really want to get irate check out the prices the industrial users pay, its a lot less than residential.

[Syonyk]

If you really want to get irate check out the prices the industrial users pay, its a lot less than residential.

Well, per kWh, yeah.  But residential customers don't have to pay demand charges, which are a rather expensive per-kW charge based on your peak (15, 30, or 60 minutes, usually) during the month.  So if you use no energy but pull 100kW for 15 minutes, your bill is stunningly expensive.

[jambongris]

The current prices for electricity in Ottawa, Ontario range from nearly $0.11/kWh to just under $0.19/kWh when you factor in all the other charges (transmission, regulatory, etc). This is on top of $17.41 in fixed fees each month. I'm definitely glad than I'm not stuck trying to heat our house with electricity during the winter.

[Prairie Stash]

If you really want to get irate check out the prices the industrial users pay, its a lot less than residential.

Well, per kWh, yeah.  But residential customers don't have to pay demand charges, which are a rather expensive per-kW charge based on your peak (15, 30, or 60 minutes, usually) during the month.  So if you use no energy but pull 100kW for 15 minutes, your bill is stunningly expensive.

Except who would do that? That kind of random intermittent draw could cause power flickers on the grid.  You would require a substation for the delivery of that much power, static capacitors to even the load, filters to balance the power and more. Your bill would be high because of the immense amount of additional equipment needed to deliver 100 kwh for 15 minutes, its the same amount of equipment needed to do it for the rest of the month.

Maybe the demand charges are there to compensate for the equipment the utility needs to install, not for the power used.

[Syonyk]

Except who would do that? That kind of random intermittent draw could cause power flickers on the grid.  You would require a substation for the delivery of that much power, static capacitors to even the load, filters to balance the power and more. Your bill would be high because of the immense amount of additional equipment needed to deliver 100 kwh for 15 minutes, its the same amount of equipment needed to do it for the rest of the month.

Maybe the demand charges are there to compensate for the equipment the utility needs to install, not for the power used.

Actually, 100kWh isn't that much - it's only about 400A of 240V, or around 200A at 480V.

But that's exactly what demand charges are for - delivering 100kWh for 15 minutes or 24/7/365 requires about the same amount of equipment.

I'm just pointing out that you're missing a large part of the industrial rate schedule if you just look at the per-kWh cost.  They pay for infrastructure and generated power separately.

[Rightflyer]

Billing period Mar 15-April 12

313.68 kWh = $84.25

That's for 2 people in approx 2000 ft2 house in Eastern Ontario
(our average is 10-12 kWh a day throughout the year)




 

[human]

Weird that you get a discount for using more, they try to discourage use here. Prices are the same same for all residential regardless of the amount consumed, prices are based on time of day. They should start charging more for those that hit a certain threshold if you ask me.

The energy company sells energy. Why would they charge more to their best customers and less to their worst customers?

If you really want to get irate check out the prices the industrial users pay, its a lot less than residential.

Hydro One isn't completely privatized yet and from what I understand they will retain 40% ownership and probably control (sell off was stupid if you ask me, forgoing 750 mill in profit a year to get some quick cash now makes no sense). The province still controls generation (Ontario Power Generation). They'd rather avoid creating new reactors and dams.

[Prairie Stash]

Except who would do that? That kind of random intermittent draw could cause power flickers on the grid.  You would require a substation for the delivery of that much power, static capacitors to even the load, filters to balance the power and more. Your bill would be high because of the immense amount of additional equipment needed to deliver 100 kwh for 15 minutes, its the same amount of equipment needed to do it for the rest of the month.

Maybe the demand charges are there to compensate for the equipment the utility needs to install, not for the power used.

Actually, 100kWh isn't that much - it's only about 400A of 240V, or around 200A at 480V.

But that's exactly what demand charges are for - delivering 100kWh for 15 minutes or 24/7/365 requires about the same amount of equipment.

I'm just pointing out that you're missing a large part of the industrial rate schedule if you just look at the per-kWh cost.  They pay for infrastructure and generated power separately.

I'm not missing it. I'm sticking with pointing out that preferred customers of any business get preferred rates. Also pointing out that electricity companies sell electricity and not ways to reduce demand.

If you disagree with demand charges, because you only use power for 15  minutes a month, I'm sure an electrician can design a system to charge for a week and then release the power quickly. It will get you around the demand charges, these no reason to complain when you can avoid it very reasonably.

[wienerdog]

Except who would do that? That kind of random intermittent draw could cause power flickers on the grid.  You would require a substation for the delivery of that much power, static capacitors to even the load, filters to balance the power and more. Your bill would be high because of the immense amount of additional equipment needed to deliver 100 kwh for 15 minutes, its the same amount of equipment needed to do it for the rest of the month.

Maybe the demand charges are there to compensate for the equipment the utility needs to install, not for the power used.

Actually, 100kWh isn't that much - it's only about 400A of 240V, or around 200A at 480V.

But that's exactly what demand charges are for - delivering 100kWh for 15 minutes or 24/7/365 requires about the same amount of equipment.

I'm just pointing out that you're missing a large part of the industrial rate schedule if you just look at the per-kWh cost.  They pay for infrastructure and generated power separately.

I'm not missing it. I'm sticking with pointing out that preferred customers of any business get preferred rates. Also pointing out that electricity companies sell electricity and not ways to reduce demand.

If you disagree with demand charges, because you only use power for 15  minutes a month, I'm sure an electrician can design a system to charge for a week and then release the power quickly. It will get you around the demand charges, these no reason to complain when you can avoid it very reasonably.

They are starting to do that in Ontario but I think it might be flawed if it starts to catch on.  Now they look at the 5 peaks of the year in generation and then look at your peak during that time and hit you with demand charges.  Now if you get a device to change your peak because you know when the generation peak is and everyone starts to do it then the peak will no longer be the peak.

[Prairie Stash]

Except who would do that? That kind of random intermittent draw could cause power flickers on the grid.  You would require a substation for the delivery of that much power, static capacitors to even the load, filters to balance the power and more. Your bill would be high because of the immense amount of additional equipment needed to deliver 100 kwh for 15 minutes, its the same amount of equipment needed to do it for the rest of the month.

Maybe the demand charges are there to compensate for the equipment the utility needs to install, not for the power used.

Actually, 100kWh isn't that much - it's only about 400A of 240V, or around 200A at 480V.

But that's exactly what demand charges are for - delivering 100kWh for 15 minutes or 24/7/365 requires about the same amount of equipment.

I'm just pointing out that you're missing a large part of the industrial rate schedule if you just look at the per-kWh cost.  They pay for infrastructure and generated power separately.

I'm not missing it. I'm sticking with pointing out that preferred customers of any business get preferred rates. Also pointing out that electricity companies sell electricity and not ways to reduce demand.

If you disagree with demand charges, because you only use power for 15  minutes a month, I'm sure an electrician can design a system to charge for a week and then release the power quickly. It will get you around the demand charges, these no reason to complain when you can avoid it very reasonably.

They are starting to do that in Ontario but I think it might be flawed if it starts to catch on.  Now they look at the 5 peaks of the year in generation and then look at your peak during that time and hit you with demand charges.  Now if you get a device to change your peak because you know when the generation peak is and everyone starts to do it then the peak will no longer be the peak.

Peaks are bad for the utility and correspond with reduced profits. By lowering the peaks they lower the legal obligation to maintain generating capacity. If everyone does it the utility can achieve greater profits by delaying infrastructure costs that are required only to maintain service during peaks, its real, they want you to change your peaks and its for their benefit if you do. Imagine a gas turbine that only operates during peaks, the rest of the year it sits idle. The maintenance, personnel and capital costs are constant but it might only be used 10-20% of the year, how profitable is that plant? Those units are know as peaking units, which are different than Base Load units (nuclear) that operate 24/7/365 (except for scheduled maintenance). The cost/kwh to produce at base units are cheaper than peaking units because of the utilization factor. However Peaking units are cheaper than base units to build, so they're cheaper for those times when they're needed than building additional base capacity.

I've had the opportunity to watch live time power usage for a grid, its interesting. You can see when people turn on AC, when they cook, when they leave for work even. Most people only use power a few hours/day and they cycle turbines off/on just for those demands. By evening out demand it saves costs on the supply side, please do the utility a favour and take advantage of it.