Author Topic: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...  (Read 15030 times)

Syonyk

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On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« on: January 03, 2018, 10:22:46 AM »
Those paying attention to interesting corners of tech news might have noticed that there's a rather significant bug in Intel chips, at least, that basically means without a rather significant kernel change, you have no security at all.  Arbitrary user code can read kernel memory.  That's Bad.

I know quite a few people on this forum like to brag about using ancient computers with no longer updated operating systems.

May I suggest that not getting OS updates is an especially bad idea at this point in time?

nereo

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 10:32:29 AM »
sounds like a conversation I had with my father recently:
him: I never do any of those updates - every time one comes up I just hit "ignore." I don't want them changing anything on my computer.

him literally 5 minutes later: why is my computer constantly infested with malware?

Schaefer Light

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 10:38:32 AM »
On a related note, I keep hitting ignore when the IOS update pops up on my iPhone.

Sibley

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 11:02:50 AM »
I find that the people who have trouble with computers generally fall into two categories:

1. They don't know how to use/maintain it, including updates, etc.
2. They have knowledge, but do things, or try to do things, that will likely cause problems. Overclocking your CPU is one of those. Not doing OS updates is another.

I feel sorry for #1 and will try to help. #2 - you're on your own and you deserve whatever you get.

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 12:43:19 PM »
I find that the people who have trouble with computers generally fall into two categories:

1. They don't know how to use/maintain it, including updates, etc.
2. They have knowledge, but do things, or try to do things, that will likely cause problems. Overclocking your CPU is one of those. Not doing OS updates is another.

I feel sorry for #1 and will try to help. #2 - you're on your own and you deserve whatever you get.

I used to have trouble with malware, until I learned these 5 amazing tricks (number 4 will shock you).

nereo

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 12:46:26 PM »

EnjoyIt

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 04:27:59 PM »
Those paying attention to interesting corners of tech news might have noticed that there's a rather significant bug in Intel chips, at least, that basically means without a rather significant kernel change, you have no security at all.  Arbitrary user code can read kernel memory.  That's Bad.

I know quite a few people on this forum like to brag about using ancient computers with no longer updated operating systems.

May I suggest that not getting OS updates is an especially bad idea at this point in time?

Certain things get updates while others do not.
My iPhone 6 has not been updated in years and works just as the day I got it.  Compared to others who update regularly and now find their phone too slow and their battery almost useless.

I update my OSX with every update.
My media server in the house has been running windows 7 for years and will likely stay that way until its stops functioning and I am forced to build a new server.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2018, 04:58:01 PM »
So, anyway.

https://meltdownattack.com/

Feel free to decide if you want to keep running non-updated OSes.

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2018, 05:05:26 PM »
So, anyway.

https://meltdownattack.com/

It's a trap? I've got a terrible case of paranoia now.

Indexer

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2018, 05:36:00 PM »
So, anyway.

https://meltdownattack.com/

It's a trap? I've got a terrible case of paranoia now.

It appears safe, its information about the bugs. meltdownattack.com is a scary URL.


+Traveled to the site on my Chromebook. If you want security and low prices, I vote Chromebook.

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2018, 05:44:00 PM »
It appears safe, its information about the bugs. meltdownattack.com is a scary URL.

Not sure I can trust you. Who are you and who do you work for?

(Waiting until I get home to my bunker and can run in a VM.)

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2018, 05:52:53 PM »
(Waiting until I get home to my bunker and can run in a VM.)

Shouldn't matter.  These can collect information cross-VM as well.

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2018, 06:05:13 PM »
Crap. Well, might as well get this over with...

My SSN is 683-85-3381. I'm 42, live with my parents, and have a peculiar fondness for duck feet. Oh yeah, and I'm a dog.

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2018, 06:11:37 PM »
I used to have trouble with malware, until I learned these 5 amazing tricks (number 4 will shock you).

that's way better than Rick...    er wait, way worse than Rick?

channtheman

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2018, 02:39:24 AM »
I don't update my MacBook Pro to the newest OSX.  I bought mine in October 2013 and initially was super excited about new OSX updates and would update to Yosemite or whatever was newest.  I quickly found my 1.5 year old computer barely functioning.  This is a $1500 computer (yeah, pre mustachian days, won't be buying another Apple computer again) and should last me 10 years easily.  Since downgrading back to the OSX version that it came with, the speed came back and I haven't had problems since.  Occasionally, when I open Numbers (Apple version of Excel), it will harass me about updating to a newer version but I just ignore it.  Otherwise, Apple leaves me alone.

soccerluvof4

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 03:34:20 AM »
I am one of those peeps that are not tech savy but I do do all the updates. Between the computer, Java, an our security one it seems every other day there is something that needs an update. I havent notice any slowdown but then again maybe I just slowed down. My computer about 2 years ago maybe 3 needed to be updated to Microsoft 10 and that was something new to get use to but I also only use it for search, emails, reading , pretty much thats it. I believe its 6 years old. On it most everyday so hope its safe and lasts. Its a Toshiba Satellite.

barbaz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2018, 10:14:11 AM »
While I agree with the general message (update your systems!), as end users you don’t need to be too concerned about meltdown and spectre. These bugs are very difficult to exploit in practice.

What makes them so scary for experts is that they are hardware bugs that can’t be fixed with software (the upcoming updates are just workarounds that prevent exploitation), that almost all processors from the past ~20 years are affected, and that side channel attacks are always 7.83 times more scary than other exploits.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2018, 10:52:58 AM »
No, Meltdown is trivial to exploit without an updated OS.

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2018, 11:14:26 AM »
+1 to all of this.  I work in IT, and an unpatched/unsupported OS is not something to fuck with if you're connected to the internet in any capacity.

I keep all our computers up to date (three Win10 machines at home and one Win7), I update my iPhone as soon as it asks me.  This doesn't have to be expensive.  One of my laptops is from 2010 (bought on eBay for cheap in 2014) and runs just fine with up-to-date Windows.  iPhones are supported by iOS updates for five years now, and Android phones can be updated past a few years if you know what you're doing.

Windows 10's forced-update model is often annoying in practice (especially for those with metered/crappy internet), but I 100% get MS's approach on it.  It's a pretty big deal.

And this is a bad one.  Update your stuff!  And back your shit up if you're not already.

barbaz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2018, 01:00:15 PM »
No, Meltdown is trivial to exploit without an updated OS.
No it's not. First, you need to be able to execute code on the target machine (at which point you don't need meltdown to do evil things).
Then, you need to make the exploit work. Here's a post from a guy who tried but couldn't. He's even quoted from the Google guys, so it's not just some random idiot. Both attacks depend on the exact timing difference of very short intervals that are affected by a lot of other messy factors.
Finally, you need to know what you are looking for. One source said you can read about 1.5kB per second, so you can't just scan the entire system memory and hope there's a password.txt opened somewhere.

So when your bank account gets hacked in the next year or two, it's probably not because of meltdown or spectre, regardless of whether you updated your system or not.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2018, 01:02:35 PM »
Isn't this why two part authentication exists? I pretty much expect everything I do with computers to be public knowledge anyway, because this is the 21st century.

FiftyIsTheNewTwenty

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2018, 01:17:38 PM »
Linux updates with most distributions/brands are timely, fast, and free forever.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2018, 01:27:29 PM »
No it's not. First, you need to be able to execute code on the target machine (at which point you don't need meltdown to do evil things).

Sceptre is specifically demonstrated to work in browsers, with Javascript.  It can read the process memory outside the Javascript sandbox.

And plenty of people run code on their machines, assuming that the OS will do the correct thing and sandbox the kernel memory and memory of other processes properly.

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Then, you need to make the exploit work. Here's a post from a guy who tried but couldn't. He's even quoted from the Google guys, so it's not just some random idiot.

Quite old post, on this timeline, and if I'm not mistaken, the things that actually work are an evolution of that design.  He didn't get it, but someone else was able to.

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Both attacks depend on the exact timing difference of very short intervals that are affected by a lot of other messy factors.

Yes, and the RDTSC instruction, which is unprivileged on x86, offers more than enough resolution to get you that data.

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Finally, you need to know what you are looking for. One source said you can read about 1.5kB per second, so you can't just scan the entire system memory and hope there's a password.txt opened somewhere.

That's Sceptre.  Meltdown gets you around 100kb/s without TSX, and north of 500kb/s with TSX support (admittedly not terribly relevant in the context of older systems that aren't getting updated, since working TSX is Broadwell and newer).

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So when your bank account gets hacked in the next year or two, it's probably not because of meltdown or spectre, regardless of whether you updated your system or not.

*shrug*  Ok.  Run whatever you want.  I don't care.  However, I still think it's quite stupid to run non-updated hardware.  And I do think we'll see both Sceptre and Meltdown in the wild.  If we're not already.  They don't exactly leave good logs behind, 'ya know?

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 01:38:17 PM »
And I do think we'll see both Sceptre and Meltdown in the wild.  If we're not already.  They don't exactly leave good logs behind, 'ya know?

Well, I dunno. I did notice that reading address 0xfffabee00 was a little faster than it should have been a moment ago. I'm pretty sure I got hacked.

The JS PoC is quite impressive. This is a way worse deal than I had thought yesterday.

CharlesBronzee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2018, 02:03:06 PM »
Still running my Windows 7 laptop that I bought in 2012.

I have no interest in upgrading to a new operating system unless I have to.  To me a computer's operating system is like plumbing.  As long as its working, I'm not going to change it.  I see no benefit in a new search feature functionality etc. that Microsoft tries to sell me every couple of years.

Syonyk

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2018, 02:06:33 PM »
Do you do anything you care about?

Email, banking, anything?

barbaz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2018, 02:10:55 PM »
Sceptre is specifically demonstrated to work in browsers, with Javascript.  It can read the process memory outside the Javascript sandbox.
People have shown that you can produce the necessary assembly code with a JS JIT, but you still have to prepare the necessary preconditions and then do something useful when you're in. Both things are not trivial.

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And plenty of people run code on their machines, assuming that the OS will do the correct thing and sandbox the kernel memory and memory of other processes properly.
The same people will also enter their passwords when UAC asks them to.

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I still think it's quite stupid to run non-updated hardware.  And I do think we'll see both Sceptre and Meltdown in the wild.
Yeah just that you can't update your hardware. This is what makes these bugs so annoying, not the actual attack risk. When we see them in the wild, it will be something like NSA trying to get into Iranian nuclear plants, but not phishers looking for your banking credentials.

BTW I did not say you should ignore updates or PC safety. I just said that these exploits in particular are not a big threat to the average user. So as a peace offering let's just together shake our heads about the post by Charles who apparently hasn't read a single word in this thread except for the title.

FiveSigmas

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2018, 02:26:27 PM »
Still running my Windows 7 laptop that I bought in 2012.

I have no interest in upgrading to a new operating system unless I have to.  To me a computer's operating system is like plumbing.  As long as its working, I'm not going to change it.  I see no benefit in a new search feature functionality etc. that Microsoft tries to sell me every couple of years.

Charles, respectfully: this is the same reasoning that caused the levee breaches in Katrina. If we don't perform routine maintenance, problems will build up. Things might look like they're working "fine", but once a trigger event happens, the damage is done.

Just like we need to periodically replace worn connectors under our sinks, our computers need routine maintenance. Not keeping up to date is asking for trouble.

techwiz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2018, 02:31:13 PM »
Always update if there an update available!

By the time an update is published the issue or security hole has been widely documented and could be incorporated in the latest threat/malware.   

I also think it's a good idea to rebuild from scratch your machines every so often. Great way to try out other OS's and learn something new and get rid of old files and crap which end up slowing down your machines. 

Recently had some issues with an old machine which was upgraded to Windows 10 from Windows 7 the Microsoft updates were taking hours to install. I backed up the data, formatted the drive and did a fresh install of the latest build of Windows 10 and it's like a new machine.  Never had much luck with upgrades always better doing a fresh install.   
 

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2018, 02:36:17 PM »
Still running my Windows 7 laptop that I bought in 2012.

I have no interest in upgrading to a new operating system unless I have to.  To me a computer's operating system is like plumbing.  As long as its working, I'm not going to change it.  I see no benefit in a new search feature functionality etc. that Microsoft tries to sell me every couple of years.
This isn't about updating to Windows 10 or whiz-bang new features.  This is about having the most recent security updates to Windows 7.  Those will stop coming in January 2020, but for now, you should still be installing critical patches such as the ones being discussed in this thread.  Once Jan 2020 rolls around, yes, you should update to Win10 since Windows 7 won't be getting updates anymore (you won't "have to," but you should).  I think eleven years (five years after its successor was released, and was offered for a year as a free upgrade and has similar system requirements) is a reasonable amount of time to support an OS.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 02:39:37 PM by ketchup »

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2018, 03:33:01 PM »
Well, it's pretty reasonable from Microsoft's perspective.

From our perspective, Windows 7 is working perfectly well as it is, except for all the bugs Microsoft keeps fixing via Windows Update.    Microsoft should fuck off and keep fixing the bugs until THEY ARE ALL GONE, instead of dropping support.   (yes, I know they will never be all gone)

Or is there some reason I should upgrade to Windows 10 other than Microsoft has decided they can't be bothered to fix bugs in Windows 7 any more?

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2018, 03:43:57 PM »
Well, it's pretty reasonable from Microsoft's perspective.

From our perspective, Windows 7 is working perfectly well as it is, except for all the bugs Microsoft keeps fixing via Windows Update.    Microsoft should fuck off and keep fixing the bugs until THEY ARE ALL GONE, instead of dropping support.   (yes, I know they will never be all gone)

Or is there some reason I should upgrade to Windows 10 other than Microsoft has decided they can't be bothered to fix bugs in Windows 7 any more?
By that logic, should they still be patching Windows 95 too?  We have a Windows 95 PC at work (running specialized hardware) that works "perfectly fine."
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 03:45:53 PM by ketchup »

CharlesBronzee

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2018, 03:56:33 PM »
Still running my Windows 7 laptop that I bought in 2012.

I have no interest in upgrading to a new operating system unless I have to.  To me a computer's operating system is like plumbing.  As long as its working, I'm not going to change it.  I see no benefit in a new search feature functionality etc. that Microsoft tries to sell me every couple of years.

Charles, respectfully: this is the same reasoning that caused the levee breaches in Katrina. If we don't perform routine maintenance, problems will build up. Things might look like they're working "fine", but once a trigger event happens, the damage is done.

Just like we need to periodically replace worn connectors under our sinks, our computers need routine maintenance. Not keeping up to date is asking for trouble.

I never said anything about not applying updates, security patches. In fact, I just installed a security update a couple of hours ago. 

 I said I will not move to their next OS eg Windows 8/10 unless I HAVE to because I do not see any meaningful benefit in doing so, especially if I take into account the hassle, time and cost it would take to move my apps.

For the same reason I'm not upgrading my iphone 6 to the next model unless I see any tangible benefit for doing so.  And I'm hoping that tangible benefit won't just be "because this phone is now to dang slow!"  :(

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2018, 04:42:33 PM »
Well, it's pretty reasonable from Microsoft's perspective.

From our perspective, Windows 7 is working perfectly well as it is, except for all the bugs Microsoft keeps fixing via Windows Update.    Microsoft should fuck off and keep fixing the bugs until THEY ARE ALL GONE, instead of dropping support.   (yes, I know they will never be all gone)

Or is there some reason I should upgrade to Windows 10 other than Microsoft has decided they can't be bothered to fix bugs in Windows 7 any more?
By that logic, should they still be patching Windows 95 too?  We have a Windows 95 PC at work (running specialized hardware) that works "perfectly fine."

No, because the Windows 3/95/98/ME line was badly flawed and Windows NT 'technology' corrected that.   Windows 10, however, does not seem to correct anything important in Windows 7.

SC93

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2018, 05:28:04 PM »
When running my large business, our company computer did not have internet hooked up to it. That was the one with all the info on it. On the other desk we had one with internet hooked up to it. That was back in the 200lb monitor days. Nowadays if anyone wants to take anything from my computer the most they will get is.... pretty much nothing. lol They could get in to my facebook but if they want in to that all they have to do is ask..... it's only Facebook..... Other than that they could click my favorites and come to this site. If they want to use my screen name, go ahead.... I'm sure I piss of more people than they can.

Nowadays we get our computers from the museum when they get new ones. I'm on my 3 year old, $300 27" Mac. If we ever have any trouble I just take it to their IT guy and he fixes it by the next day for free. :)

alsoknownasDean

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2018, 06:10:49 PM »
Stuff like this is why I keep operating systems up to date. Even Windows 7 still has a couple more years of support left in it.

Once Apple stop supporting El Capitan, I'll probably put Linux on my Mac.

Running XP on an Internet-connected PC these days is asking for trouble.

Gronnie

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2018, 06:13:59 PM »
Well, it's pretty reasonable from Microsoft's perspective.

From our perspective, Windows 7 is working perfectly well as it is, except for all the bugs Microsoft keeps fixing via Windows Update.    Microsoft should fuck off and keep fixing the bugs until THEY ARE ALL GONE, instead of dropping support.   (yes, I know they will never be all gone)

Or is there some reason I should upgrade to Windows 10 other than Microsoft has decided they can't be bothered to fix bugs in Windows 7 any more?
By that logic, should they still be patching Windows 95 too?  We have a Windows 95 PC at work (running specialized hardware) that works "perfectly fine."

No, because the Windows 3/95/98/ME line was badly flawed and Windows NT 'technology' corrected that.   Windows 10, however, does not seem to correct anything important in Windows 7.

I try so hard to hold my tongue at all the Windows 7 supporters, but it's just ridiculous. If you must run Windows, then Windows 10 is superior to Windows 7 in just about every way.

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2018, 07:19:02 PM »
Like what?    Reporting more of my private information back to the mother ship?

scottish

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2018, 07:23:19 PM »
Here is Microsoft's lists of improvements.   Which of these do you think makes Windows 10 worth the trouble?

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Customizable Start experience.
Refreshed icons and graphics
Integration with Microsoft's digital assistant - Cortana, can be used for finding and retrieving information on the Internet and your PC, such as files. You can also use it to control applications such as the Music Player and prepare an email message or track a package.
Task View for managing applications using multiple desktops.
Modern apps can now be windowed and behave just like desktop apps.
Notification Center for centralized management of notifications and quick access to PC settings.
Universal applications that work not only on your Windows 10 PC, but also your mobile phone running Windows 10 and also XBOX One.
XBOX App for Streaming of live games to a PC or Tablet
Touch optimized Office applications (Word, Excel, Outlook, OneNote and PowerPoint). Providing the power of Office on devices with touch support. Users can edit, prepare documents, spreadsheets and presentations with full document fidelity regardless of device.
Continuum Mode - if you own a 2 in 1 form factor that works both as a laptop and tablet, you can easily let Windows 10 decide the best environment for you. Once detached into Tablet mode for instance, you can work in a more touch optimized user interface. Users will also be able to remotely use Windows 10 Mobile apps on their Windows PCs.
Microsoft Edge - Windows 10 will include a next generation web browser called Edge that support advances in Windows 10 such as Cortana for finding information on the web, Annotation, PDF support, superior reading experience.
Music and playlist integration in OneDrive.
Unified messaging using Skype Integration
Windows Hello and Passport for personalized authentication without the use of passwords.
Device Guard for protecting devices against malicious applications.
Support for media formats such as FLAC and MKV

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2018, 08:26:34 PM »
I don't like how Windows 10 makes you pay extra for lots of stuff that came for free with Windows 7. It's like how EA expects people to pay for gear in-game after they purchase new video games. I'm flipping these companies the bird.

Astatine

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2018, 11:14:52 PM »
I was reading this thread in the throes of a hypo (like being drunk but with bonus shakes and no fun) and decided to stop procrastinating the latest Windows update. Huzzah. 2.5 hours later, done.

Always update if there an update available!

By the time an update is published the issue or security hole has been widely documented and could be incorporated in the latest threat/malware.   

I also think it's a good idea to rebuild from scratch your machines every so often. Great way to try out other OS's and learn something new and get rid of old files and crap which end up slowing down your machines. 

Recently had some issues with an old machine which was upgraded to Windows 10 from Windows 7 the Microsoft updates were taking hours to install. I backed up the data, formatted the drive and did a fresh install of the latest build of Windows 10 and it's like a new machine.  Never had much luck with upgrades always better doing a fresh install.   
 

Ah crap, that's me and my 7 year old Toshiba laptop. Unlike you, I am not a tech whizz kid. That sounds like sensible thing to do but I do not want to do it. (I live with an IT nerd but he's an Apple fan boy so minimal experience with Windows/PCs)

ETA showed my post to Apple fan boy, aka DH, and he's willing to research it and see if he can make it happen. Huzzah.
I don't like how Windows 10 makes you pay extra for lots of stuff that came for free with Windows 7. It's like how EA expects people to pay for gear in-game after they purchase new video games. I'm flipping these companies the bird.

I haven't had to pay for anything in Windows 10 and I've been using it for months. I just use Outlook, Word and Excel (obvs steering clear of IE) and it's all been free thus far.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 11:19:46 PM by Astatine »

jim555

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2018, 05:45:38 AM »
Any OS should be updated often.  If you can't update the OS then never put it on the Internet. 

The latest Meltdown issue is a problem with Intel processors and is very serious.  Every OS needs a workaround patch to fix it.

If you are on Windows then Win 10 is the most secure.  Personally I don't use Windows due to it not respecting privacy.

techwiz

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2018, 09:18:37 AM »
Any OS should be updated often.  If you can't update the OS then never put it on the Internet. 

The latest Meltdown issue is a problem with Intel processors and is very serious.  Every OS needs a workaround patch to fix it.

If you are on Windows then Win 10 is the most secure.  Personally I don't use Windows due to it not respecting privacy.

Well said.
On the issue with Windows privacy there are ways to correct it, here is a link with step by step instructions.  https://www.pcworld.com/article/2971725/windows/how-to-reclaim-your-privacy-in-windows-10-piece-by-piece.html 

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2018, 09:27:56 AM »
Any OS should be updated often.  If you can't update the OS then never put it on the Internet. 

The latest Meltdown issue is a problem with Intel processors and is very serious.  Every OS needs a workaround patch to fix it.

If you are on Windows then Win 10 is the most secure.  Personally I don't use Windows due to it not respecting privacy.

Well said.
On the issue with Windows privacy there are ways to correct it, here is a link with step by step instructions.  https://www.pcworld.com/article/2971725/windows/how-to-reclaim-your-privacy-in-windows-10-piece-by-piece.html
It's also worth mentioning that most (all?) of the telemetry privacy-invading nonsense of 10 has been backported to Win7 as well (and probably 8, but nobody is running 8 if they give a shit).  So that's a bad reason to stick to 7.  If you're going to use Windows, use 10 or have a plan to move to 10 before 7 support ends (Jan 2020).  If you want out of the Microsoft privacy-invasion-fest, figure out how to disable what you can, or jump to Linux.

big_slacker

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2018, 11:01:52 AM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D

ketchup

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2018, 11:38:33 AM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D
Absolutely.  MS supported XP waay longer than truly made sense (April 2014), and I think Jan 2020 is a very reasonable expiration date for Win7.  Eleven years is a pretty good run, especially with giving away Win10 as a free upgrade for a year in there. 

Oldest-case scenario, if you have a PC from 2007 that originally had Vista, you could have upgraded to 7 in 2009 when it came out, and then to 10 in 2015-2016 as a free upgrade, and still be running it today and past 2020.  If you have a PC from before ~2007, sure it's probably time to buy a new system, but thirteen years is a long time in the PC world.  Was anyone advocating using vintage 1994 PCs in 2007?

eaknet

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2018, 12:36:32 PM »
Still running my Windows 7 laptop that I bought in 2012.

I have no interest in upgrading to a new operating system unless I have to.  To me a computer's operating system is like plumbing.  As long as its working, I'm not going to change it.  I see no benefit in a new search feature functionality etc. that Microsoft tries to sell me every couple of years.

Charles, respectfully: this is the same reasoning that caused the levee breaches in Katrina. If we don't perform routine maintenance, problems will build up. Things might look like they're working "fine", but once a trigger event happens, the damage is done.

Just like we need to periodically replace worn connectors under our sinks, our computers need routine maintenance. Not keeping up to date is asking for trouble.

I never said anything about not applying updates, security patches. In fact, I just installed a security update a couple of hours ago. 

 I said I will not move to their next OS eg Windows 8/10 unless I HAVE to because I do not see any meaningful benefit in doing so, especially if I take into account the hassle, time and cost it would take to move my apps.

For the same reason I'm not upgrading my iphone 6 to the next model unless I see any tangible benefit for doing so.  And I'm hoping that tangible benefit won't just be "because this phone is now to dang slow!"  :(
You can thank Apple for the slowdown. “It’s for your own good” is a sorry excuse to me. Talk about planned obsolescence.


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nemesis

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2018, 12:51:11 PM »
I work in IT.  If you think updates will keep you protected from these hardware vulnerabilities, I have some swampland to sell you in Florida.

I've had enough updates mess up systems so badly they had to be restored.  I apply updates, but cautious after ensuring they won't cause worse issues that they fix.

Those who blindly rush to apply an update as soon as it's available, will sooner or later regret it.  I practice a 3 day delay on my Windows updates, a 2 week - 4 week delay on my mobile phone updates.  I'll let other people beta test the update and fuck up their systems before I do it on mine.

Just Joe

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2018, 02:05:44 PM »
I can't understand why people think it's reasonable for the largest software companies in the world to offer support/bugfixes in perpetuity for an ancient OS at no cost. It's just mind blowing. As an infosec guy I'm happy to see that most at least keep up with patching which is nice. But you can shout at clouds all you want, software will still have end of support dates. :D

Hey, if the Linux folks can do it for free, why not Microsoft too? ;)

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: On the downsides of running non-updated computers...
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2018, 03:13:09 PM »
When I was a kid, absolutely nobody hacked my 5th grade classroom's Commodore 64. Just saying.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!