The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: RusticBohemian on April 16, 2018, 11:44:59 PM
-
I've noticed a number of people on this forum say they don't have kids. Perhaps financial considerations played a role, or it's that simply not having kids makes early retirement easier.
I'm 33 and childless, and am looking for some reflection from those who have decided to not have kids and are now decades into that decision.
Why did you decide not to have kids, and do you regret the decision? Has it made socializing much harder? Do you ever feel like you missed out on a major part of what it is to be human by not experiencing parenthood?
I don't hate kids, and have even liked several of them enough to make me think that perhaps I wouldn't mind having one (the right one) of my own if it came down to it. But most of the kids I've spent time with have just been unappealing. I'm hesitant to have one because I've never once had a strong desire to be a father, and don't really, "get the appeal."
Given this lack of desire, it seems stupid of me to have one and hope that the desire will just kick in. I see it as a moral issue as much as anything else. It would have been very easy for me to give in to a girlfriend I loved very much who did strongly want to be a mother, but I instead decided to end the relationship, as extremely painful as that was to me.
I did this because I not only figured that my own happiness would likely be diminished by being a father, but that child would have to go through life with a father who - however dutiful he would attempt to be - wouldn't really want the child. I had a father who wanted me and loved me, and I can't imagine not being able to give that to a child of my own because I just never developed whatever it is that normal people who want kids do that makes them want them.
But at the same time, I am getting older, and my hopes, in years past, of finding a woman I loved who didn't want to have kids seems like it may have been unrealistic.
I wonder how much happiness I sacrificed with my my past girlfriend, who I was very compatible with in almost every other way. and who I would have been happy to spend my life with.
So...yeah. tell me about your experience. How did you come to your decision, and what have the ramifications been?
-
49, woman, no kids, never wanted them, no regrets. Have dogs.
The choice never had anything to do with money, it was all about free time and just not wanting to raise children. It never made socializing harder. I have lots of friends with kids. But the friends with kids that we enjoyed also enjoyed a little time away from the kids, or they had well-behaved kids. And we have a lot of kid-free friends.
I never ever imagined I wanted kids, even when I was young. My ideas of my future life were more about travel and having time to do all the things I wanted to do. I would try the idea on and it just seemed off. DH and I agreed on this before we were married but (because we married youngish) agreed to revisit the idea every few years. We'd throw the idea out there, "Still ok with no kids?" "Yep, you?" "Yep" and move on.
When I was in my 20s I read a lot of books about being childless by choice because I was concerned there was something "wrong" with me; I wanted to see if I was alone in this feeling of not wanting kids. The answer was nope, not alone and not so unusual at all. Now I don't think about it much. Some people say they are reassured that their kids will take care of them in old age. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
ETA: I feel for you and your tough decision. +1 to the stepfather advocacy. I have a marvelous stepfather who came into my life at age 11. Maybe there's a woman for you who doesn't want any more children.
-
I'm only 40, so this isn't decades down the road, but I am at the age where having children would come with added risks.
I love kids, but I have never felt the desire to have any of my own. I didn't even play with dolls! I told my mom when I was 4 or 5 that I didn't want to have kids. She told me I'd meet the right person and want them. Instead, I met my husband who also didn't want kids, and I had a tubal ligation. By then, my mother was not surprised.
I am a dedicated aunt. I adore my nieces and nephews and can spend hours with my newest little niece in absolute joy, but when I come home, I have zero desire to have a baby of my own. As a teacher, I've dedicated my life to caring for other people's children. I love it. I also love coming home to just my husband and our pets.
No regrets here. Most of my friends and family have kids; that's never been a problem.
I strongly believe children should be wanted.
-
41, male, no kids. Never had a desire to have kids. When people tell me I'm "missing out" because I don't have kids I just ignore it. It's not financial though, it's just not something I want. I had a friend that didn't like ice cream. Sure, most people find ice cream to be very enjoyable and would "miss" it if they couldn't have it ever again, but he wasn't going to miss it because it wasn't something he wanted. I'm the same way with kids, I just don't want them. I have no regrets regarding my lack of desire to have kids though.
-
From what I see it is not such an issue for men. Maybe because having children is traditionally a woman's thing and society expects it of them more. Or maybe because men don't really lose their ability to have kids as they age so there is no specific end point. As a guy I think you can get by without much regret. The risk for men is more to get themselves isolated outside work as their kids having friends grow apart and their hobbies are flooded with younger people who they don't connect with. Especially after their parents die they regret being alone in their house. But it is quite possible to mitigate these risks and regrets.
I have to say though that your own kid is very different than other people's kids. And especially if your wife/girlfriend is doing most of the work it can be very nice also for non-kid lovers. I think the most important obstacle would be you maintaining a relationship with a woman who is pre-occupied with the child. There will be a lot of unmet expectations on both sides to do more with the kids on the one hand and to do more fun stuff on the other.
-
I'm only 40, so this isn't decades down the road, but I am at the age where having children would come with added risks.
I love kids, but I have never felt the desire to have any of my own. I didn't even play with dolls! I told my mom when I was 4 or 5 that I didn't want to have kids. She told me I'd meet the right person and want them. Instead, I met my husband who also didn't want kids, and I had a tubal ligation. By then, my mother was not surprised.
I am a dedicated aunt. I adore my nieces and nephews and can spend hours with my newest little niece in absolute joy, but when I come home, I have zero desire to have a baby of my own. As a teacher, I've dedicated my life to caring for other people's children. I love it. I also love coming home to just my husband and our pets.
No regrets here. Most of my friends and family have kids; that's never been a problem.
I strongly believe children should be wanted.
This. I adore my nieces and nephew and my friends’ kids, but the more time I spend with them, the more certain I am that I don’t want one of my own. Husband and I married when I was 25 and at that time he claimed to want kids. I would have had one to make him and our parents happy (and it would have been a mistake), but fertility was going to be a problem and as it turned out, neither of us had a strong enough parental drive to want to explore our options. Extended time with the nieces and nephew was also a major eye opener for husband. We’re much happier with our peaceful house and pets.
-
I'm 51 and DW is 46. No kids for us and couldn't be happier about it. We get our kid fix through our nieces and nephews. Then....we get to go back to our clean, quiet home ;-).
-
32, female, single and childfree. I like kids in small doses and really like giving them back to their parents. There are whole age groups that I have absolutely no patience for. I also like my life as it is currently. I'm quite happy with my house and cats and friends. Adding a spouse is not really appealing, much less a baby.
2cent - while having and raising children was traditionally the women's job, that is changing. There are PLENTY of women who absolutely will not accept anything less than full and equitable participation from the father. Society is changing as well. Fathers who are not involved in their children's daily lives are beginning to be looked at as bad fathers. While it's not universal, it is headed that direction. If a man fundamentally isn't interested in being a father, he would be wise to skip that role.
If you don't have children, there are ways to be involved with children if you wish. Friends and family may have kids. You can volunteer, be a mentor, etc.
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
-
57,happily married for 38 years. My husband and I never had children because we never felt any big desire for children. Raising children is a huge commitment and I think every child should be wanted deeply. As a woman, I felt a lot of pressure to have children when I was younger, but it was never something I felt was right for me.
My only regret is, now that I'm older, I do sometimes think it would be nice to have grown children -- I see the relationship friends have with their grown children and I think that would be nice. Also, as we are now taking care of my husband's parents, i think it would be nice to have that kind of safety net for our old age. But those are just vague, wistful feelings, and if I had a time machine to go back and have the opportunity to change my mind about kids, I wouldn't. It just wasn't the right choice for us.
-
I have a two year old son, I'm 32. I plan on having 1 or 2 more.
My view is that a happy and truly joyful life well lived is lived in serving others. Having children guarantees you'll spend a significant amount of time serving others (it's either that or live with the guilt of being a terrible parent).
Many people have already found a passion that benefits others in some way. Science, medicine, technology, business, charity, cooking, etc. Or maybe they have a spouse or family member who is sick or has special needs, and they already spend their days selflessly.
Parenthood also offers you the ability to shape a young person to a certain extent, so it can be a tremendous source of pride and joy - in potentially both healthy and unhealthy ways.
I wouldn't write off parenthood because of how you feel about humans between the ages of 0-16. That's only a fifth or so of their life, and a fifth or so of yours (that really might not be as bad as you might think).
I also wouldn't default into parenthood, which it sounds like you're not in danger of doing. No matter what it's good to be intentional. But if you're intentional about not having kids, I would make sure to be intentional about what it is that you'll be doing to benefit others - because no one can be happy if they can serve others in some way but choose not to. That's my view anyways.
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
-
Just know that you'll feel a lot different about YOUR kids than you will about other people's kids.
As a 33-year old man, you have plenty of time to sire children. My advice is find a younger woman to have kids with. This will pay dividends in many ways. If you start dating 25-year olds, you might eventually find one you'd like to marry, and then she'll still have plenty of fertility and youthful vigor. I would avoid dating women your own age at this point (at least seriously, casual is fine).
-
I've never wanted to have kids but was happy to be a mentor to girls through my alma mater.
My neighbor always wanted kids but never met the right guy. When she was around 40, she saw an ad from the local school system asking for a volunteer for a special needs child. She responded and started when the girl was age 3. Just last weekend, neighbor gave a party for the girl's 12th birthday.
Like others, I think people should only have children if they deeply want them. If you see having children as a way of service but don't want to have kids, there are thousands of ways to contribute to society in other ways.
-
I am a 44 year old women and my husband is 47. When we were pretty young (early twenties), we were both convinced that we didn't want to have children. For me the reason was that there are enough people on this planet already and we don't need more children for environmental reasons. I have always had the impression that the world will not become a better place in the future. I might be terribly wrong, of course. But if I now look at global warming, robots taking over jobs, multiresistant bacteria becoming a thread, plastic in the seas, having world leaders who are pretty unstable and could start a war any time, I think we might have taken a good decision not to have children. I just think we are living in a golden age and it could rapidly go downward from here. But I have been thinking this for decades and so far, it is still going well in my part of the world.
The other reason was that children limit your freedom and immensely increase your responsibility. We both were pretty afraid of that.
When I was in my thirties, I had a flash of "now or never". I pretty much felt an urge to get a baby. But not on my own. I thought about the alternatives:
- Deliberately get pregnant from my husband without his permission. Easy to do, but I think it would ruin the relationship.
- Divorce and find a new life partner that I love. This is a risky business.
- Divorce and get inserted with donor semen and become a single mother.
- Divorce and ask a friend to be biological father, but raise the child as a single mother. My cousin did this.
- Stay with my husband and not get children.
I think being a single mother is a very tough job and I didn't want to do that. I also didn't want to fool my husband into becoming pregnant, after agreeing on not getting children. But I did want to stay with him. So I asked my husband if he still thought about it the same way. He needed some time to think about it, but concluded in the end that he still didn't want children.
Currently I am pretty stressed in my working situation. I think my life would have been a LOT more stressful if we would have had a child as well.
I am also very aware that we save lots of money by not having children. This was never an argument for not getting them. But I do think it helped us to be very close to FIRE. Although I see that my BIL and his GF are raising their child in a very cheap manner, buying lots of stuff second hand.
I once asked an elderly female colleague (60+) without children whether she missed them. She said she didn't.
I sometimes miss not having a child if we are joining an event where lots of people bring children, like celebrating the constitution day on the streets. But generally we do other stuff, instead of going to such events. However, we do notice that it is a bit difficult finding friends who are in their thirties-forties and don't have children. Even the ones who don't, suddenly get pregnant. I hope this will improve when we get older. Then most people of our age should have children who flew the nest.
In general: no I don't regret not having children.
Edit:
My brother and BIL now both have children. It is nice to meet them, but is also very nice to see them leave. I get really exhausted by them. Maybe it is my age. Or maybe it is the way the children are raised, as I think I would have raised them a bit stricter.
-
I've noticed a number of people on this forum say they don't have kids. Perhaps financial considerations played a role, or it's that simply not having kids makes early retirement easier.
I'm 33 and childless, and am looking for some reflection from those who have decided to not have kids and are now decades into that decision.
Why did you decide not to have kids, and do you regret the decision? Has it made socializing much harder? Do you ever feel like you missed out on a major part of what it is to be human by not experiencing parenthood?
But at the same time, I am getting older, and my hopes, in years past, of finding a woman I loved who didn't want to have kids seems like it may have been unrealistic.
I wonder how much happiness I sacrificed with my my past girlfriend, who I was very compatible with in almost every other way. and who I would have been happy to spend my life with.
So...yeah. tell me about your experience. How did you come to your decision, and what have the ramifications been?
I'm 47/DH is 56. We're been together since I was 20 and he was 29. It wasn't so much that we 'decided not to have kids'. Having children always struck us as one of the hugest opt-in decisions of life there was, just like choosing a spouse, deciding to move to another country, we had to actively WANT it and commit to it. Just 'stumbling' into such a life choice b/c it was the next 'step' wasn't how we approached it. Both of us had been around babies and helped care for infant siblings as teenagers, and that was fine. DH was ok with school age kids, I was ok with teenagers in certain settings, but neither of us had much interest in kids in general. Also, human population numbers/ecological impacts of child-bearing, especially beyond replacement rate, we viewed as extremely morally problematic. So it was a default 'no' unless something happened to turn it to a strong 'yes'.
I was told by many that my bio clock would kick in at some point, and did see this happen with some friends, but for me...never. DH and I revisited the topic every few years through our 20s and 30s, and it was always a huge 'meh'. When DH turned 40, he said he did not want to be an 'old dad' and we should make a final decision. He got a vasectomy. At the same time, during all those years, we were confident that if an 'accident' had happened (and we had one serious scare) we'd have taken on parenthood with as much grace as possible, and we suspect it would have been fine.
Is it harder socializing? It's hard to tell...we aren't hugely extroverted to begin with, and our social crowd rapidly became very diverse across age categories b/c of academia and research opportunities. A very large chunk of our friends and family also don't have kids for various reasons; in fact, being childfree/less is so common in our social context as to be unremarkable. We never socialized much with people with young kids, but that was mostly happenstance b/c our close friends of that age range lived mostly in other cities. And now the oldest of THEIR kids are starting college :boggles: One local couple in our circle had twins, but we had never been 'hang out weekly' type friends. So we saw the mother less for a few years as she found other friends with babies and small kids. Makes sense. We see her a bit more now as the kids get older. A number of our friends had high school age kids when we met them, so they were past that time-intensive stage. To sum up: my sense is there is a 5-10-year window when kids are very young, where your friendship with their parents will be affected by their 1) limited time and energy; and 2) their natural desire to seek out people in a similar situation; 3) your intrinsic interest in being around/helping directly with very small kids.
Do we feel we've missed out on a major part of the human experience? Yes, technically speaking, a major experience but certainly NOT an essential one. We don't really experience it as a lack. It would have been a profound experience, for sure, and probably but not necessarily a good one. We're likely slightly different people than we would have been had we parented, but then EVERY life experience alters you a bit. It isn't something we think about much :shrug:. There's a million 'roads not taken' in every life, after all.
There are two elements related to 'no-kids' that I sort of regret: one selfish, one not. The selfish one is simply practical: Aging is going to be somewhat more difficult without kids to call on. However, I watched both sides of my family severely damage formerly close relationships during the 'kids caring for aging parents' phase. I would have hated to put that kind of burden and possible inter-sibling etc. conflict onto kids of mine.
The second element is not selfish, but just general regret that we haven't had much opportunity to been around people of that stage of life (see above), and thus have not experienced being a 'fun aunt/uncle' or a 'auxiliary adult' to a young generation parented by close friends or family...perhaps that would have been to our liking! DH has a lot of nieces and nephews, but he isn't at all close to his family so he doesn't know most of them. Whereas, I'm very close to my siblings, but they are also child free (one of them still has a possible child bearing window...but it's not likely). And as stated above, we were never in proximity to our other close friends with young kids. So that's been kind of sad, though it won't necessarily be YOUR experience.
Finally, you are worried about partnering as a CF person, but remember you are currently in that deadly 'middle window' after the first round of marriages but before the first round of divorces, to put it somewhat jokingly. I know quite a few people in this position. But in a few more years more people will be coming back onto the market, many with alternative views of life paths, past ideal childbearing years, or with older kids from previous marriages. If you are flexible in those terms, and aggressive in putting yourself out there, I would not give up hope of finding a good partner.
-
I am 30 and my wife 24. When we first started dating 6 years ago, I saw how she was around children and in a sense, it was nothing I had ever appreciated in that sense. Children flocked to her. She was one of the most amazing young women I have ever seen with children. Being a young 20’s male, it’s nothing you really think of at the time.. “would she be amazing mother?” You just kind of think most women would at least be “good.”
That was such a huge turn on that I never expected til I met her. Fast forward 6 years and our lives have changed drastically. We took nearly 8-9 months off in 2015/2017 and spent months in Asia, motorcycled 3 weeks though Baja then an 8000 mile 2 month road trip through US and Canada, camping every night.
Looking at our very “seat of the pants” life, I would be more and more Ok not having kids. That being said, I know how my wife has always been, and I love her too much to rob her of that. I know I’ll be a great dad and will still enjoy it, despite feeling more indifferent. I’m glad we have waited, but I’ll still be ok to have a kid(s). Not to mention, my wife doesn’t work, so no childcare and all the other conveniences of her staying at home. She’s a machine around the house already getting stuff done, and I know when we have a kid she will still hold her own weight.
-
I'm 41 and my husband is 46. We have been married for 15 years this year. Before getting married I told him I had never felt I wanted kids and I didn't think it would change. I don't think he had ever given much thought to having kids or not (I also think he would have had them had he of married someone that wanted them). He was fine with not having them.
In my early 30s I ended up reading every single child free by choice book I could get my hands on. I didn't understand why I didn't want children and I was really afraid of regretting my decision not to have them. I found some comfort in the reading the books and knowing I wasn't alone in some of my thoughts.
With that said, yes I think there will be some regret. But it is like that with any decision you make, there is always a road not taken, experiences you won't have, etc. I recognize that by not having children I am giving up the thing that most women feel is the most important thing in their lives. I sometimes wonder how I might be different if I had children. Maybe I would be a better person or less anxious or less stressed. Or maybe just the opposite would be true, maybe I would be MORE anxious and stressed (this is more likely true).
As far as socializing, we actually have several friends that don't have children and we are friends with a few people that have older kids. In general it is probably easier to have more acquaintances if you have kids but I don't think it really makes much of a difference for deep real friendships. In fact, it might be the opposite, I feel like I have more deep/true friendships than people I know that have children (I have more time and energy to devote to friendships maybe). But, I think I would have a better sense of community if I had children.
I do think about the fact that we will be alone in our old age. However, my husband is the youngest of three kids. None of the kids live in the same state as their elderly parents. This isn't because they don't love them or have bad relationships it is just a function of their jobs and life circumstances. Having kids doesn't guarantee that you won't be alone (and aren't we all alone anyway really?). I do plan to save more money than what most MMM followers are saving because I think money will give us more options and choices for old age care.
At the end of the day, in order for me to have a baby, I knew I would have to wake up one day with the feeling of I absolutely want to do this. No question, no doubt. I've never felt like that so I wouldn't do anything different.
-
My personal opinion is that most people are going to maintain roughly the same baseline level of happiness with or without kids.
-
PTF - 2 kids and I'm happy about it.
It's interesting to see the comments from older people especially. While I have the desire for kids, others feel the opposite. No point comparing camps, its not really a choice. While I know with certainty I'd be retired already without kids (numbers are available to back this statement up), it would be the same as telling someone they could FIRE if they only stay at home the rest of their lives; in other words, life would be incomplete. Hopefully no one is so Cheap that they would cut off kids to achieve that goal.
The other way I could have FIRE'd sooner would be to remain single, if I could have ignored my desire for companionship. I wonder if anyone remains deliberately single for the reduced expenses? Not everyone incurs additional cost, but some people do; as seen in couples with wide salary differences in particular.
-
41, male, no kids. Never had a desire to have kids. When people tell me I'm "missing out" because I don't have kids I just ignore it. It's not financial though, it's just not something I want. I had a friend that didn't like ice cream. Sure, most people find ice cream to be very enjoyable and would "miss" it if they couldn't have it ever again, but he wasn't going to miss it because it wasn't something he wanted. I'm the same way with kids, I just don't want them. I have no regrets regarding my lack of desire to have kids though.
You are missing out. At a minimum, on months (years?) of crappy sleep.
-
I didn't really want kids while I was growing up, and married a man who did. We probably should have talked about it more - but honestly, we are both stubborn, so we both probably thought we could sway the other one. In the end, we "compromised" between 0 and 2 at one child. (Then #1 talked us in to #2 - they are 6.5 years apart.)
I have many friends my age and older (late 40s and up) who do not have children. Having spent much of my 20's and 30's not wanting them, I totally get it.
Some friends didn't want children, some were ambivalent - could have gone either way but married someone who didn't want them.
They are all living happy, fulfilled lives. They travel, volunteer, hang out with family and nieces and nephews, work.
Sometimes you want kids and the timing just never works out. I've got a few friends like that, who just didn't marry until late 40's (or ever) and didn't want to be single parents.
-
I cannot provide the perspective you asked for because I'm younger than you, but I feel almost identically to what you typed out. I knew people in high school who simply knew that they wanted kids. It want even a question for them. I didn't have those inclinations but thought as I got older and put my life together that wanting kids would come.
It hasn't. I have absolutely no desire. I'm also cynical enough from seeing many of my peers have unexpected kids or marry because of unplanned pregnancy that I think the "kids are the best" attitude comes by default. Either decide the kid is the best part of your life, or have a really shitty life. Not much of a choice there if you didn't know you wanted a kid beforehand.
That, of course, doesn't apply to someone who wants them. More power to them. I'm not going to have a kid for fear of regretting it later, though. I'll cross that bridge if I ever get there.
-
I'm a 44 yr old single female. I never wanted kids, like knew as a child that I didn't want to be a mother. This also plays a part in the fact that I have never sought out marriage either, always expecting to marry late in life if at all (still hasn't happened, and now although I would be open to the idea of marriage, I am for the most part indifferent). Primarily, I knew I would be able to support myself to a middle class lifestyle on my own, and didn't want to have to defer to anyone else in my decision making. it is a generational thing, and something I might think differently on if I was a millennial instead of gen X. Most of my social circle either doesn't have children, or have grown children.
When I think of regrets of not having kids, it is usually in the context of not feeling or being considered "normal" for not having them, and that only crops up when I am around my numerous siblings and their children. Also of course, there is the fear of aging alone, but again, even with kids there are not guarantees there at all. My recently widowed mother has 6 children, none of them live within a 10 hr drive of her home.
When I live in my day to day, quiet child free life, I don't have any regrets at all.
-
The other way I could have FIRE'd sooner would be to remain single, if I could have ignored my desire for companionship. I wonder if anyone remains deliberately single for the reduced expenses? Not everyone incurs additional cost, but some people do; as seen in couples with wide salary differences in particular.
I would think that the experience of most singles is that it is more expensive for them to live a middle class lifestyle when compared to a normal two income couple, even if there is income disparity. DINKs seem to be able to retire earlier than SINKs for the same lifestyle choices. Kids can change the balance, but that tends to depend on choices made regarding lifestyle spending. Half of my housing expenses should easily cover the costs associated with a child. From observation, people tend to make kids way more expensive than they need to be (from fancy strollers and diaper bags right up to expensive private travelling sports clubs).
-
Older female. No kids. No regrets. As a matter of fact I sometimes get giddily happy about my childfree choice and thank the powers that be that I chose to be childless.
I knew as a kid that I didn't want kids or a traditional 9 to 5, M - F, white picket fence kind of life. I knew that I wouldn't be able to live the kind of life I wanted if I had kids (and maybe married too although I met and married a like-minded guy) so that was the biggest motivator for me to remain childless. I also never had any desire to have kids. I also am not the caretaker type and knew that care taking kids wasn't something I'd find joy or fulfillment in. Just the opposite. Finances had nothing to do with my decision but of course being childless definitely help me get to FI at age 38 and RE at 42.
Hello my doppelganger! Not only the same facts, but I would have typed those exact same words. The feeling of joy I have at being childfree is sometimes so enormous, when I take a mindful moment to appreciate my situation, that I feel like it is, at least, ONE good decision I have made in my life. I definitely did that RIGHT, if nothing else. And my gosh, that feels so good to appreciate and take a moment of gratitude for.
So, as to your situation, OP, like you will and have been told, I was often told I'd feel different about my own children. As a way of inducing me to "give it a try" I suppose. This seems way too risky and terribly unfair (potentially) to the child - like they are just an experiment and what happens if it doesn't work out? Not worth the risk for me. And it doesn't *always* work out. I have definitely read/heard many a story of people that...don't "regret" having children, but it's pretty clear they would make a different choice if given the chance. TBH, my own grandmother probably would have had less than her 8 if she had had access to reliable birth control (and my mom was the last of the 8, so I wouldn't exist) and my mom probably would have made different choices as well. I've never doubted how much my mom actually loves me and her support for me is strong both emotionally and practically, but I can also accept that she has real curiosity and some wistfulness about a life lived with different choices, that probably would not have ended up with kids. So yeah, feel free to be reticent to do an "experiment" to see if it will be different with your own kids.
Here are options that worked well for me: sign up on a dating site and say you are looking for someone childfree that never wants children. I put this (and nontheism) as deal-breakers on my OKCupid profile 5 years ago and it worked awesome. I went on dates with about 9 men in just a few weeks, that all "checked the boxes". I just celebrated my 5th anniversary with one of them. Ok, you are saying, yeah but you're a woman!! Actually, I read a study a few years ago that actually showed men are more likely to want children. I know, I was shocked too. So theoretically it is easier to find a woman that doesn't want children. In any case, I strongly encourage you to maintain some optimism about finding women like that. There are lots of them and you might not even have to look very hard to find them.
I'll also just end with a minor plug not to sort of rest on your laurels assuming you have a lot more time to decide than a woman your age. There are increasing studies on this question and some evidence that increased paternal age can correlate with problems for the child, like autism, etc. Not that I'm trying to lend a sense of urgency to your decision. You can, after all, always adopt or pursue any of various other options if you get older and change your mind. But, just want to remind folks that even men may need to take age into consideration.
-
PTF because this discussion is interesting to me. I've always wanted to have kids, but I'm still thinking not yet. I still have stuff I want to do while I'm relatively unencumbered, but I do plan on having them at some point in the near-ish future. The main questions for me are how many, and when to start. I think everyone who is ambivalent or doesn't want them should be free to make that choice without judgement, there are already enough people on this planet that we don't need to add any more unwanted ones. There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
-
I'm a woman in my 60s. Never had kids. Never wanted them. I had my tubes tied in my mid-20s. Never regretted my decision. Money had nothing to do with it.
n
My DH has two sons. They were grown and out by the time we married. DH is in-charge of social contact with his children and grandchildren so it doesn't happen on a frequent basis. (Stereotypical male behavior with none of them able/willing to organize even a pizza get together.) I don't count of them being any assistance when we get older.
-
I'm only 25, got the snip when I was 23. I've been CF since I realized children are optional, probably around 10 or 11. My husband got a vasectomy at 25 as a wedding gift to me, and because it aligns with his values.
We'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. It mostly comes down to us not wanting to be parents in any way shape or form.
I only regret the way other peoples' words have affected me in the past, making me feel bad for my choices.
-
41, male, no kids. Never had a desire to have kids. When people tell me I'm "missing out" because I don't have kids I just ignore it. It's not financial though, it's just not something I want. I had a friend that didn't like ice cream. Sure, most people find ice cream to be very enjoyable and would "miss" it if they couldn't have it ever again, but he wasn't going to miss it because it wasn't something he wanted. I'm the same way with kids, I just don't want them. I have no regrets regarding my lack of desire to have kids though.
You are missing out. At a minimum, on months (years?) of crappy sleep.
I had years of crappy/no sleep in the Navy, I'm good lol
Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
Totally depends on the parents. My parents could not care less.
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
Totally depends on the parents. My parents could not care less.
Same here and I'm an only child.
-
I'm only 25, got the snip when I was 23. I've been CF since I realized children are optional, probably around 10 or 11. My husband got a vasectomy at 25 as a wedding gift to me, and because it aligns with his values.
We'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. It mostly comes down to us not wanting to be parents in any way shape or form.
I only regret the way other peoples' words have affected me in the past, making me feel bad for my choices.
+100!
Where do you live that you were "allowed" to get snipped at 23? I've always heard women (and even men at your husband's age) are basically told no if they want this before having any children and/or younger than like 35 or something. ETA: whoops, sorry now see that you live in WA. Did you not get push-back? How hard did you have to fight to get this?
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
Totally depends on the parents. My parents could not care less.
Same here and I'm an only child.
I should add that my parents loved me and my siblings, and don't regret having kids. And if any of us HAD grandkids, they would have loved the grandkids, most likely. But they really don't care one way or the other. I do definitely know grandparents who obsessed over grandkids, but I know plenty others for whom it really is not of concern.
-
There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
-
64 and never wanted kids. Ever. I knew it by the time I hit college, and probably before that. Just can't stand being around them, for any number of reasons (same with older people who exhibit kid-like behaviors). So I don't have any regrets, other than waiting until I was close to 30 before getting snipped.
Certainly made the trip to FIRE a whole lot easier.
Larry
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
-
I knew I always wanted kids, DH not quite so sure and probably would not have had one without me, although he loves our child. In his words though, he says, "I like children okay, and I love my own child, but he is a lot of work and this isn't something I particularly enjoy." FWIW, I think he will enjoy the experience a lot more when our child can communicate and he can teach him more complex things. He did go into our relationship with eyes wide open, though, as I told him on our first date that I wanted kids (long story, lol, but we were friends before this, so not quite the shocker).
I do really like what someone wrote above that as parents we focus on the the 0-16 age, but there is a lot more to it than that as you spend hopefully another 20-40 years with them. DH also liked this perspective.
I applaud you greatly for ending your relationship with a woman who really wanted kids- please do the same courtesy to anyone else that you might date because there is the unfortunate ticking biological clock and it's not fair for someone to spend months to years of their life with someone if the end result is already fated.
-
I'm only 25, got the snip when I was 23. I've been CF since I realized children are optional, probably around 10 or 11. My husband got a vasectomy at 25 as a wedding gift to me, and because it aligns with his values.
We'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. It mostly comes down to us not wanting to be parents in any way shape or form.
I only regret the way other peoples' words have affected me in the past, making me feel bad for my choices.
+100!
Where do you live that you were "allowed" to get snipped at 23? I've always heard women (and even men at your husband's age) are basically told no if they want this before having any children and/or younger than like 35 or something. ETA: whoops, sorry now see that you live in WA. Did you not get push-back? How hard did you have to fight to get this?
+2, I'd be curious to hear your experience. I've never heard of that so young. It's not wrong of course, although I don't think health care providers have an obligation to do it when asked at such a young age. They do have an obligation not to be a jerk about it.
-
There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Well it is much easier for men to get vasectomies than for women to get their tubes tied, just ask anyone who asks for those operations in their twenties. In general, men not wanting children is unremarkable, while if women say they don't want them it's like there's something wrong with them. That's the sort of sexism I meant, and I don't think it's just because of fertility windows.
Re: bolded. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have much more to offer than my looks and I would never choose a partner who thought that was my most important characteristic.
-
Spouse & I have been together for 30 years. No kids, no desire for kids, no regrets.
I'm aware that we're on our own as we grow old, but that might be true even if we'd had kids; you never really know who's going to pop out. It's sobering but not a regret.
We are both grateful that we made this decision, despite the enormous societal pressures on both of us to have kids. We love our quiet, peaceful lives.
I know lots of women who are childless by choice and never want kids. It's hard finding a partner period, so adding in a limitation like "no kids" might reduce the pool of options somewhat, but not as much as you think, OP. There are plenty of women who share your mindset.
Plus, as time goes by, women who had kids young end up with kids out of the house, in college, etc., so you could end up with a female partner who has adult children, so you never actually end up doing the parenting thing.
-
I'm only 25, got the snip when I was 23. I've been CF since I realized children are optional, probably around 10 or 11. My husband got a vasectomy at 25 as a wedding gift to me, and because it aligns with his values.
We'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. It mostly comes down to us not wanting to be parents in any way shape or form.
I only regret the way other peoples' words have affected me in the past, making me feel bad for my choices.
+100!
Where do you live that you were "allowed" to get snipped at 23? I've always heard women (and even men at your husband's age) are basically told no if they want this before having any children and/or younger than like 35 or something. ETA: whoops, sorry now see that you live in WA. Did you not get push-back? How hard did you have to fight to get this?
+2, I'd be curious to hear your experience. I've never heard of that so young. It's not wrong of course, although I don't think health care providers have an obligation to do it when asked at such a young age. They do have an obligation not to be a jerk about it.
@sui generis and @gettingtoyes I had a relatively easy time getting this done, compared to many horror stories I've read. To be clear, "snip" means the Essure method, coils inserted into the Fallopian tubes to create a barrier: sperms doesn't go up, eggs don't go down. It's the only sterilization method PP does in my state other than vasectomies (that DH got at PP).
I have been asking for sterilization by my primary doctor since I was 18 and have recorded their "no" responses each year. I expected much more push back, but they essentially asked me why I was doing it, what happens if I change my mind, and are you really sure. I had prepared a 5 page document on why this was my preferred procedure, why I wanted it, the risks associated with pregnancy, and basically any answer to any question I could have been asked. I didn't really need to bust it out, since they were nice to me. About a month later, I got the procedure done. There's a follow-up test that needs to be done too, absolutely don't skip that part. I send the office a Christmas card every year thanking them for helping me out and it's given me great peace of mind since then. That year I had several medical issues that hit my out of pocket maximum so everything was free.
DH had an even easier time than me, they asked him pretty much the same questions and it was done also about a month later.
I realize my experience was not super typical, but r/childfree has excellent resources and has a list of doctors who have helped them on the sidebar.
-
There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Well it is much easier for men to get vasectomies than for women to get their tubes tied, just ask anyone who asks for those operations in their twenties. In general, men not wanting children is unremarkable, while if women say they don't want them it's like there's something wrong with them. That's the sort of sexism I meant, and I don't think it's just because of fertility windows.
Re: bolded. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have much more to offer than my looks and I would never choose a partner who thought that was my most important characteristic.
I agree that looks aren't everything, especially in the context of a long-term relationship. But without any physical attraction, there's not a romantic relationship in the first place. Men judge the attractiveness of women based almost entirely on looks.
-
There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Well it is much easier for men to get vasectomies than for women to get their tubes tied, just ask anyone who asks for those operations in their twenties. In general, men not wanting children is unremarkable, while if women say they don't want them it's like there's something wrong with them. That's the sort of sexism I meant, and I don't think it's just because of fertility windows.
Re: bolded. I'm sorry you feel that way. I have much more to offer than my looks and I would never choose a partner who thought that was my most important characteristic.
I agree that looks aren't everything, especially in the context of a long-term relationship. But without any physical attraction, there's not a romantic relationship in the first place. Men judge the attractiveness of women based almost entirely on looks.
That may be true (or not) but there is no one 'look' that men find more attractive. If all hetero men were only attracted to young supermodels then the species would not continue. My husband thinks I'm hot stuff but I'm 100% average in the looks department. I've never had a shortage of boyfriends despite being normal looking - and same with my female friends who run the gamut in looks and are all different ages.
And I've never believed that myth that men only like younger women. When I was 20 something my then 20 something boyfriend left me for a 46 year old woman (who looked 46). As far as I know, they're still together 20 years later.
-
I'm a soon to be 35 year old woman, and I've never had a strong desire to parent a child (or multiples of them). I LIKE kids, but there's a big difference between enjoying the company of little ones (I have nieces and nephews for that), and wanting to be the little one's primary caregiver, role model, disciplinarian, etc, for a minimum of 18 years. I just...don't really want to do that.
I would like to know the sort of people my hypothetical offspring would turn out to become, but at no point thus far have I ever thought that enough of a trade for 18+ years of parenting.
That said, I have always stood by the decision that if I should ever become pregnant despite use of birth control, I will keep the child. It's not that I 100% don't want to parent a child, it's that I don't want to parent a child. (See the difference there?) I don't want to do anything permanent though, like have my tubes tied, because there's always some small wondering of what if I change my mind? Though at some point in the not too distant future, that won't be a concern.
I think if you deliberately seek to get pregnant, impregnate someone else, or adopt, you should actively want and plan to parent that child, regardless of whether you're its mother, father, or whatever gender neutral term you prefer (maybe just plain "parent.") Basically, I'm saying dads shouldn't get a "free pass" and it not matter so much if they aren't interested in parenting. If YOU, whoever and whatever you are, don't want to parent a child, you probably shouldn't try to create one. If I ever did decide I wanted to parent a child, its father had better want to do so just as badly.
-
I'm heartened to read all these responses from people who are happy with their choice. It's a big decision, either way.
@RusticBohemian , have the responses helped you? Were you specifically looking for childfree people 50+, 60+, etc? (You said "decades into the decision".)
I have children so can't give a firsthand answer to your question but am reading on with interest and am hoping this has been helpful to you.
-
Netsky - that's interesting. I'm friends with a couple who were childfree by choice into their late 30s but then had an oops pregnancy despite using an IUD. Their daughter is 10 now and they both say that it's the best thing that ever happened to them. In fact, they wanted to have a second child but had fertility issues. The husband told me that just "had no idea how amazing parenting would be" when he decided to never have children. So, never say never.
At the same, time, as a parent, I recognize that I've had to become quite stable for my kids. When I was younger I used to move on a whim and lived around the world. It's not quite that easy when you're uprooting two kids. I can see the appeal of the childfree life despite being a happy parent.
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
I’m sure it is quite low. However, I have a brief story I’ll never forget regarding that.
My wife and I were snow skiing for our honeymoon. The big room to eat/warmup was all packed, but we found a table with 5 middle aged women and two open chairs, so we sat. We got to talking to a lady, and omgggggg she bitched about her kids for like 15 minutes. I’d never seen anything like it - a mom so adamantly telling us how much kids has ruined her life and so many things she loved. It was very odd seeing this suburbanite soccer mom have so much strong feelings in that regard, especially to total strangers. Maybe she felt it was the only venue to really get it out.
-
I didn't want kids, until I did, and I'm pretty happy with my/our decision to have them.
(I've seen quite a few studies showing that lots of people do have regrets, both in the toddler years and the teen years.)
Because I am Old, my observation is that people who wanted kids and couldn't have them do have lingering regrets, while people who didn't want kids and didn't have them are just fine with that.
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
Your post is sweetly innocent.
Not all grandparents are like yours. Count yourselves lucky.
Try having 2 sets of grand parents that are generally well meaning and love you and their grandkids but only grudgingly will ever devote their ample free time and also piss you off quite often with passive/aggressive judgements
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
I’m sure it is quite low. However, I have a brief story I’ll never forget regarding that.
My wife and I were snow skiing for our honeymoon. The big room to eat/warmup was all packed, but we found a table with 5 middle aged women and two open chairs, so we sat. We got to talking to a lady, and omgggggg she bitched about her kids for like 15 minutes. I’d never seen anything like it - a mom so adamantly telling us how much kids has ruined her life and so many things she loved. It was very odd seeing this suburbanite soccer mom have so much strong feelings in that regard, especially to total strangers. Maybe she felt it was the only venue to really get it out.
My cousin was telling me how she never wanted kids and she had them for her husband. He ended up cheating on her and leaving her while pregnant with their second. She was talking about how hard it was to do anything or date anyone because of the kids. She was interested in guy who was great except that he didn't want kids, so of course he wasn't interested in pursuing a relationship with her. She didn't quite say she regretted having the kids, but she said she would have been happy being a professional aunt, and I got the feeling she did regret having them, especially considering how her marriage ended up.
-
I didn't like *being* a child and I couldn't imagine *wanting* to be a parent (and be around children all day). However, I assumed that one day I'd get married and have kids because that's what grown-ups did. When I grew up, I guess I continued to assume that some day I would want them--but I never actually *wanted* to be a parent. At times I wanted to cuddle a baby, but nothing more.
The main thing was that there was never a time in my life when having a child would have been a good idea. Looking back, I see that even more clearly. In my 20s, I would have jumped off a bridge. In my 30s, I would have been miserable, and by now I'd be divorced and my kids would be in therapy.
I do sometimes regret the things I've missed. My brother's kids are grown and having kids of their own, and he is so happy and proud, and the little ones are delightful. I miss the Kodak moments. But you can't have two lives, and I'm content with the one I have.
-
I never had kids, never wanted kids, have NO regrets. It was not a financial decision at all, but now that I am retiring this year, my friends with kids are looking on with incredulity and jealousy.
My friends with kids can actually be a bit boring. They need to do kid things and talk about kid events (Disneyland, kids sports, etc.)
There are so many interesting things to do in life that do not involve having kids.
Not to mention the whole overpopulation issue.
Reaching just a bit on the overpopulation issue to further your point as well as your friends "looking on with jealousy". My wife and I have an 18 month old and It's amazing to see the joy she brings to both sets of our parents. There is no greater gift one could give their parents than a child. They have stated multiple times how bored they would have been at this age if they didn't have children. It's an amazing thing to see your parents faces light up each and every time they see or mention their grandchildren.
You also state that parents with kids tend to be "boring". I'd counter that argument with friends I have who are in their early 30's and only talk about women, drinking and sports. I'd argue that their conversations are, in fact, boring.
The majority of the posts in this thread were insightful and helpful, but this one seemed to be a bit self serving...
Totally depends on the parents. My parents could not care less.
Same here and I'm an only child.
Ditto. Also an only child. My mom stayed home to raise me while dad worked 80-hour weeks and says she’s very glad she had me but also glad she stopped at one. She’s worked full time since I started middle school and informed me (while I was a teenager) that she had no intention of quitting her career to care for future grandchildren so I’d better keep that in mind (of course looking back, that might have been around the time of my cousin’s teen pregnancy). I know that my dad loves me and we get along well as adults, but I also know that he saw me as a burden for much of my childhood/adolescence.
They both remember how hard it is, and they’ve watched their siblings struggle as several of my cousins had kids that they were not ready or willing to raise properly. They would never consider it a gift for me to have a child that I don’t want.
-
No regrets. I never wanted kids, and I'm thankful that I never had any. Yes, there's a financial perspective also, especially if you end up having to pay child support for a child that doesn't live with you and that you might not even see very often.
I had a dog before - that was enough for me. And why would I want to bring a person into this world we live in? It's a selfish thing doing that to someone.
You never know what you're going to get having a child. People only think about having a healthy normal child, but if the child has some sort of health issue, mental or physical, it will be a major burden to you for the rest of your (or child's) life.
So you think your child will take care of you when you're old? Don't count on it. The population is very mobile these days. The kids will probably move away as far as they can from you and will be counting the days until they get their inheritance.
Someone here mentioned instincts. I had/have instincts for having sex, not for having kids.
Having kids, going to soccer practice, teacher meetings, etc. wasn't for me... boring! I love the freedom of not having kids and only having to worry about myself. I doubt I would be planning to FIRE in 2019 if I had kids!
-
I am 61, female, no regrets. I do have 3 stepdaughters, 7 step grandchildren, 1 niece, 3 nephews, 9 (soon to be 10) grandnieces and nephews, and 2 goddaughters, so there have been plenty of kids in my life. I am always delighted to see them and delighted when they go home. Having children around full time would have driven me batty.
-
I had a dog before - that was enough for me.
This reminds me of a quote I used to hear a lot - If you want a kid, get a dog, if you want a dog, get a cat, and if you want a cat, get a fish. I feel like that's about right.
Re: @spartana's question I never wanted step kids at all, either. Although when I was in the market anyone I would have met up with wouldn't have had adult age kids, so that's something I never had to consider. If I ever go back on the market now, I'd be up for adult age step children. Back when I was on the market, I not only stated that wanting children was a deal breaker on my profile, but that already having them was too (although I tried to be nice about it). Several men messaged me anyway that had kids and one or two even (disingenuously? likely based on the prominent text I displayed) messaged me a bit later saying, "Oops! Sorry, I see you said you don't want to connect with someone with kids! But mine are awesome, so I hope you'll consider!" I felt pretty bad holding the line, but I'm confident it would have been a waste of both of our time and that person would have been offended by how I did NOT fall in love with their child!
-
And why would I want to bring a person into this world we live in? It's a selfish thing doing that to someone.
Wow, that's awfully dark. And I say that as someone who is naturally cynical and not impressed with the trajectory of the world.
-
I'm not sure if they're making me feel less conflicted, but I do appreciate the answers and find them very informative. The perspective of others who have been where I am is super useful, and I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to chime in.
I'm heartened to read all these responses from people who are happy with their choice. It's a big decision, either way.
@RusticBohemian , have the responses helped you? Were you specifically looking for childfree people 50+, 60+, etc? (You said "decades into the decision".)
I have children so can't give a firsthand answer to your question but am reading on with interest and am hoping this has been helpful to you.
-
I'm 41, male, and childless. Having children was never a realistic option for me. However, most of my acquaintances have children, so I will sometimes feel I don't belong with the group. At work, I'm most likely to see my schedule altered wildly, because they know I don't have immediate family considerations.
-
I had a dog before - that was enough for me.
This reminds me of a quote I used to hear a lot - If you want a kid, get a dog, if you want a dog, get a cat, and if you want a cat, get a fish. I feel like that's about right.
Re: @spartana's question I never wanted step kids at all, either. Although when I was in the market anyone I would have met up with wouldn't have had adult age kids, so that's something I never had to consider. If I ever go back on the market now, I'd be up for adult age step children. Back when I was on the market, I not only stated that wanting children was a deal breaker on my profile, but that already having them was too (although I tried to be nice about it). Several men messaged me anyway that had kids and one or two even (disingenuously? likely based on the prominent text I displayed) messaged me a bit later saying, "Oops! Sorry, I see you said you don't want to connect with someone with kids! But mine are awesome, so I hope you'll consider!" I felt pretty bad holding the line, but I'm confident it would have been a waste of both of our time and that person would have been offended by how I did NOT fall in love with their child!
I had the added problem of "I'm also going to quit my job once I'm 42 to be a beach bum and looking for similar minded unemployed (but FI) slacker dude with no kids and who does want any". As you can imagine I had SO many dates (not ;-)). Throwing FIRE into the mix didn't help. Now that I'm older and the kid thing isn't an issue any longer its easier.
Just thinking.... at 42, I wouldn't have been anywhere near FI. I had less than 20% of my current net worth at that age, and that was better than most people I knew around my age.
-
^Makes me think of a Step kid question for the OP to ponder. For those of you who choose not that have kids and weren't interested in raising kids would that include step kids too?
Now ex-DH and I both agreed we didn't want kids before we got married in our early 20s. But once we divorced in our late 30s and I started dating it was if every guy around my age had young kids (or wanted to have kids). I had a couple of serious relationships with guys with young kids, and while the kids were great I just had even less interest in being a step-parent (even just a semi-involved one) then I was having and raising my own kids. Step Kids, especially the young ones but I imagine even older or adult ones, still would have been a big lifestyle changer for me and something I wasn't interested in at all.
I eventually met someone (younger than me) who was also divorced with no kids and didn't want any. He had the same issues I did when dating - either the women he met already had kids or they wanted them and he just wasn't interested in raising kids, even step kids, or changing his lifestyle to accomadate kids. So finding a compatible single person who doesn't have or want kids can.be difficult.
It was not a problem for me. My stepdaughters were all teenagers when DH and I got together, and I really enjoy that age. They were all (and continue to be) interesting, intelligent, good-humored women. I told them that I had no maternal instincts and that all parenting would come from their mother and father. I have always felt like an aunt rather than a stepmother, and that’s how they see me, too. So I have an aunt relationship with a lot of people.
As far as the “who will take care of me when I get old” stuff that always gets mentioned with childless people, I plan to pay for those services. There is also a possibility, if DH predeceases me, that I will arrange cohousing with friends similarly situated. My sorority sisters, friends for more than 40 years, and I have talked about this in some detail. We lived together happily then and are essentially the same people, why not again?
-
[Disclaimer: Some of my best friends, mentors and the like have kids and they have my great respect. Therefore I'm not bashing those who have kids.]
I am mid-40s, male, happily married for 20+ years. Haven't read every post here, but I have never, even for a minute, felt the desire for a kid. I think kids can be cute/charming at times when they are not screaming, crying, having tantrums, spewing bodily fluids out of their orifices, breaking things, making a huge mess, waking you up in the middle of the night, etc. But in general, I am not a fan, and I actually feel uncomfortable around them. (I am not really sure how to act around them. I actually believe that they probably hate the stupid baby talk and other stupid stuff most adults do around them.)
The funny thing is that all my male friends with kids encourage(d) me to have my own, but they all seem miserable, and incessantly complain about the noise, hassle, etc. One of my mentors loved his daughter, but actually seemed to hate spending any time with her (especially alone). It's almost like a pyramid scam--we're suffering parents, so we want everyone else to suffer too!
However, no one has ever given me crap about it. My wife has gotten some crap from some of her (dumb) friends, but, my response was to ask her whether she forgot that she possesses two perfectly functional middle fingers.
Aside from not being a fan of kids in general, I do not think it is fair to bring them into the world when I am well cognizant of this fact; I would not have made a very good or patient father. Not fair to them, to my wife, and to me. And also, overpopulation (don't argue with me; you know I'm right). (http://www.planetsrk.com/community/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/custom/batch1/bounce.gif)
IN ADDITION, we have so much free money and TIME as a result. I put in my less than 40 hrs per week at my job, and have tons of time left over for hobbies, yoga, meditation, vacations, daydreaming, leisurely dinners lingering over wine, and other creative activities (including photography and the book I'm writing).
Meanwhile my friends with babies are telling me horror stories about how they have zero free time, never sleep, and are constantly covered in various bodily fluids. No Thanks.
One friend with an infant told me that they buy everything at Safeway (a big overpriced sucky chain supermarket), because they have zero energy to go anywhere else, even they know they are getting royally screwed on the prices, and the selection sucks. It takes 30 minutes to get the little snowflake out of her carseat, into her carrier, and gather up all the diapers, ointments, creams, powders, teddy bears, dolls, blankies, binkies, iPhones (she had one at 2) etc, etc, etc. And THEN another 30 minutes packing everything back in after they are done shopping. So exhausting--
Now, where was I? Listening to some pre-dinner jazz and sipping a little dry Sherry.
-
Some of my favorite teachers and relatives are childfree. Most had no regrets. One of my aunts had largely decided against kids because she had a difficult relationship with her mother and didn't want to pass on any bad habits. She mentioned having slight regret, since once she matured enough to avoid the pitfalls, it was too late. Overall she is happy with her husband and pets, though. It's more "what if?" than "my life is incomplete."
-
I am really surprised to see how many people are childless and no regrets. I wonder if that would still be the case for some people later in life (60's/70's)?. My neighbor, a single lady in her 60's was very lonely after her mother and brother died, and she told my mom that her biggest regret was not having a child. Also, I have friends in their 40's that are actually really sad as they did not have children younger and it is hard now.
I did not really care if I had kids or not, but I ended up having 2. For me, after having children, even though the challenges, I find my life is never dull, I have no time to get bored, my children fill my life with happiness. I am glad I have children.
I cannot imagine my life without them.
-
I couldn't handle a 9-5 work week for very long without losing it. Toss in a child, with some ambivalent feelings about it in the first place, and I would've been impatient, stressed, and angry all the time. That's fair to no one.
I do wonder about what happens when I/we get older. Having children likely increases the odds of loving (vs indifferent) care but is no guarantee. SO has an aunt in a nursing home who is ignored by her 2 sons, and I have a friend whose son is an addict in-and-out of rehab. Like the poster above, that is one conversation that sticks with me. She feels strongly enough about her addict son to regret having him.
-
I am really surprised to see how many people are childless and no regrets. I wonder if that would still be the case for some people later in life (60's/70's)?. My neighbor, a single lady in her 60's was very lonely after her mother and brother died, and she told my mom that her biggest regret was not having a child. Also, I have friends in their 40's that are actually really sad as they did not have children younger and it is hard now.
Loneliness is brutal. And I think she could have been just as lonely with a child. Big assumption to make that your child will rescue you from that. Better to cultivate your network and volunteer.
I'm 47, childless by choice, never wanted kids, didn't need a reason. I had resigned myself to probably being a stepmother at some point, since all the single guys my age were divorced with kids, BUT, then I met my bf, who was also childless and didn't want any, and for his part had accepted that he would probably end up in a stepdad role for similar reasons. So it was icing on the cake that we were both childless.
Where I see resentment and whinging about having kids, it is inevitably parents who were not wholehearted in their decision. They felt pressured by family/their religion/cultural judgement and expectations. The complainy ones are always the ones badgering others to have children; misery loves company. Anyone who goes on about how selfish childless people are, I automatically put them in the 'didn't really really want their kids' category.
The people I know with kids who heart of hearts deeply wanted them, knew it was their path, never say such things. They are the first ones to say that having children is not for everyone.SO has an aunt in a nursing home who is ignored by her 2 sons, and I have a friend whose son is an addict in-and-out of rehab. Like the poster above, that is one conversation that sticks with me. She feels strongly enough about her addict son to regret having him.
Yeah, exactly. No guarantee there.
-
I feel there's a reporting bias in that parents who regret having kids won't speak up because of the huge taboo and for fear of hurting their kids.
Also, how much time does it really take to raise kids? I feel like parents often take too much time and are overprotective. I often think I'd have grown up faster without overprotective parents watching my back from 0 to 18. Being left to my own devices would have been beneficial. Given this, why take such a huge burden with the kids?
I'd like to have kids but minimally take care of them, except maybe at a very young age (0-5). Play with them, take care of the necessities, but otherwise get them with friends and let them do their thing. Also have the mom take the lion share of the raising, and myself escape into work or travel. Does that result in bad kids?
I honestly can't see myself held back by those fuckers for 18 years non stop. But then, if my GF wants, I don't mind making her happy with it provided that she'll spend more time than me raising them. Isn't that fair? Otherwise we can just not have them and I wouldn't mind that much.
-
I'm 60 and never had children of my own. I've posted this twice before and both times someone has put it up on the "Best post..." thread, so I apologize if you've seen it before, but it must have resonated, so perhaps it will be useful here, too.
Posting as a placeholder while go I dig it up... Okay, got it. Though it's written from a woman's POV, I hope you will find it helpful. Your situations are not identical, but the central question is the same.
Dear [person with a similar question],
[Snip]... I am the oldest of six children. When I grew up, I had no interest in marrying young or having a family. Then I had a rare form of cancer. I realized what matters in life is the quality of the relationships you build. Not job status, not money. Well, not quite. Money was what was going to protect me from a recurrence of cancer, or at least make any future treatment decisions easier. So I set out to make myself financially independent before FI was a "thing", and to find myself a spouse and then have four children. Yup, four.
I worked at this for decades. I dated tons of men of every stripe. Eventually, I decided to step out of my career position and work at Nordstrom in the Men's Department, just to meet more men! I took a huge pay cut, but damn, it worked! It was great meeting new people of the male persuasion every single day. I met tons of guys with great careers and a wide variety of interests. It was fun, and several became long term relationships, but none of them was "the one". The older I got, the more it bothered me. I knew I was not a candidate for single motherhood, primarily because it costs so damn much to live in LA and my income wasn't high enough to go it alone.
Finally, as I got a little too old for childbearing, I said "Fuck this, I need to earn more money." I got the hell out of retail and never looked back. I still dated, but since they weren't coming to me every day any more, I tried online dating, word of mouth, community activities, everything I could thing of. I really, really thought the lesson of cancer was to slow me down and re-focus me in time to be able to find a great partner, build a strong marriage and have a family. Apparently God was busy laughing at my plans.
I was sad, but determined not to be Debbie Downer about what I didn't have. I traveled, did fun stuff, and enjoyed what I could do without dwelling on my dreams that clearly were not coming to fruition. Pretty soon my friends, single and married, were saying that they wanted to have my life. Huh.
Fast forward to 2012. I was 54 and all hopes of children were long gone. Thoughts of marriage were pretty dim, too. However, FI was finally on the very near horizon. I had everything figured out but health insurance (this was pre-Obamacare + pre-existing conditions). I had a chat with a guy I'd known for years. (I let his family use my address to get their kids into a better school district years before, after their house sale in the district fell through.) He was a recent widower. I asked him if he'd consider letting me be his imagionary domestic partner so I could quit my job, buy a motorhome and travel the country.
He readily agreed and then shocked the hell out of me by saying he'd even marry me on paper if that would help, because of what I'd done for his kids. He then said his healthcare plan covered his whole family for the same (almost zero) cost. Plus, he had a motorhome! What the hell??? We went out to dinner to discuss what a crazy-ass idea it was. One dinner led to another, and then dinners somewhere became dates, then we fell in love. We eloped a few months later.
Fast forward five years. We are happy beyond our wildest imagination. His daughter got married and had a baby, making us grandparents! Remember that line, "If we'd known how much fun grandkids are, we'd have had them first"? It's completely true! I was never a mom, but now I get to be a grandmother. I'm here to tell you, it is awesome. I never dreamed any of this, but I am ridiculously glad it turned out this way. I am actually completely comfortable now that I did not have kids of my own, because I don't think I would have been a great mother, much as I was sure it was my destiny.
So that's the short version of my story. Here is my advice: The kid thing is going to sort itself out one way or another and either result will be something you can live with. For now, take care of the relationship that appears to be ending. Figure out your new housing arrangements. Decide if your job pays enough for what you give up. Fix your credit. (Can you become an Authorized User on someone's credit long enough to shape up your own credit?) Work on being the best "YOU" you can possibly be. Everything will fall into place in its own time. And it will be good, even if it is nothing like anything you ever imagined.
Best wishes,
Dicey
-
The question as give implies a child centrism.
In my life I have many regrets. But not having children is not one of them. While I understand why people love their own children; I’ve never understood the warm and fuzzy feels people have about children in general. It’s a weird idealization not connected to actual children. Maybe because I moved so much growing up and remember other children as the insufferable little assholes they were. Including, at times myself, who despite being bullied would just as soon bully a weaker child if given the chance. I loathe the western Cult of the Child, where everything must be sacrificed for “teh childrens” and the accompanying helicopter parents.
Meh. Either I’m right and people should stop that shit or I’m wrong and unfit to parent. On a personal level it’s a win either way.
-
After all the seriousness, just some fun from The Oatmeal.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/header.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_2.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_3.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_4.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_5.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_6.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_7.png)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/comics/christmas/2017_8.png)
-
A few more random thoughts I have about this thread:
I moved to another country many years ago. No problem at all when you are CF. My brother lives 45 minutes driving away from my mother. My mother is a widow. I visit her once a year, at Christmas. She very much wanted grandchildren and has been making me feel bad for not wanting them. This stopped when my brother produced some. However, my mother doesn't see her grandchildren that often. Recently, when the oldest child was 7, she was allowed to look after her grandchildren for the very first time. She is always commenting to me in a harsh way that my brother doesn't let her look after the kids.
My mother is pretty good in making herself feel good and appreciate what she does have: carpe diem. She is also joining the daily gym on TV. On the other hand, she is not very social and is not a member of any clubs. She does have a few friends.
I don't think that the fact that I have children would have made an enormous difference, as we live so far away. But maybe it would have been more lively when visiting her.
When we meet with brother or BIL, it is very difficult to have a conversation with them about anything else then their children. This is what their lives now evolve around. This is a bit boring for us.
My brother, who has been unemployed and part time employed many times (and still is) always buys everything new for his kids. BIL, who has a job, is buying everything second hand. BIL has parents who FIRED at 50 after being very frugal, so that might have helped. BIL and his GF have both been working part time all the time.
I like the cute baby/children part of children. But I can go nuts when kids start behaving in an annoying way, like smearing food on the couch, or throwing the same thing on the floor many times, or start screaming for no reason. I don't really have the patience for that. But I do like to play with a child or read a book with them. I also very much like to have a tidy house. I know people with children who also like that and who tidy up every evening.
I think DH sometimes misses not having a child to teach his skills, like fly fishing. He sometimes fantasizes on teaching this to his brother's child. But as mentioned above, we live in another country, so we don't see our nephews very often. We hope they will visit us more during summer vacations later, as BIL likes to visit our country in general. DH did get the chance to teach fly fishing to a friend's teenage son and his mate.
I would hate many aspects of parenthood, like the school instructing you to invite all boys or girls in the class for birthdays. And having to work in the cafeteria of the football club, because the child plays football. Maybe things would be different for not full-time working parents. My mother stopped working for many years when she got children.
When I was a teenager, I was quite depressed for many years. I am not sure whether I would have made a lucky child with my genes. And I certainly don't want to make an unlucky child.
One of my friends has a daughter who got anorexia. It is a very difficult situation to see your daughter starving herself and not being able to do anything about it (it is getting better now). If you get children, you better mentally prepare to handle any kind of situation that might appear.
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
I don't know about the actual numbers, but I remember a number of years back when I found myself in a pickle re: having kids/not having kids, I discovered a website that was pages and pages of confessions from people who greatly regretted having kids. It was horrifying, heart-wrenching, and sobering. There are many out who regret having them if that website was any indication.
My situation -- thought I wanted kids when I was younger, but took a non-traditional path to my career that ate up 13 years of my life (Navy --> college --> law school). Got married at 41 because my S.O. wanted to have a kid/kids. But we moved to a new city shortly thereafter, wife got busy with new career and getting a Master's degree and time just kept slipping away. We both just kind of dropped the whole having kids business. That is, until my wife turned 40 and her biological clock began ticking loudly. She freaked out and tearfully informed me that she wanted kids. At that point, I was nearly 48, so looking at being a dad at 49 or 50. I just could not bring myself to do it. I shuddered at the thought of being 65 years old with a 15-year old child, not to mention I worried very much about the high risk nature of a pregnancy with an over-40 woman and a 50 year old man., and frankly, I've always thought there are just too damn many people in the world (it's the underlying cause of all our environmental and social ills, IMHO). We had to seek counseling, and it took some time. It seemed her biggest reason for wanting a child was her fear of dying alone. I'm 7 years her senior so statistically I'll pre-decease her, and she's an only child. There were some tough conversations and counseling sessions.
In the end, the clock stopping ticking so loudly and faded away. I suspect she still has some minor regrets, but I think she's generally okay with it (she would have been a fantastic mom). I don't have any regrets, though from time to time, I wonder what our child would have looked like and how he/she would have done in life. I'm confident I would have been a great father, unlike my own, and I'm happy to have witnessed both of my brothers become amazing dads. And though finances were never a consideration, I know our finances have benefited tremendously from not having had the expense of raising kids.
Edited to add: Google "regret having kids" and you'll find dozens of articles on the subject, and there's even a Facebook group for such parents. Here's one such article:
http://www.macleans.ca/regretful-mothers/
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
I don't know about the actual numbers, but I remember a number of years back when I found myself in a pickle re: having kids/not having kids, I discovered a website that was pages and pages of confessions from people who greatly regretted having kids. It was horrifying, heart-wrenching, and sobering. There are many out who regret having them if that website was any indication.
...
Edited to add: Google "regret having kids" and you'll find dozens of articles on the subject, and there's even a Facebook group for such parents. Here's one such article:
http://www.macleans.ca/regretful-mothers/
I’ve seen those before, and they are heartbreaking. For someone who thinks they don’t want kids, I’d imagine later regret about not having them would be far easier to handle (and less damaging) than regret about having them. Kids tend to know when they aren’t wanted.
-
We are kid free and don't regret the decision at all (me 39 year old female, husband 41). I just don't have that innate mothering gene. Kids are fine but I really don't want to raise my own. My husband and I sometimes fist bump whenever a friend or coworker has some kid related issue, which is pretty frequent with my coworker (missed yesterday for one sick kid and will miss tomorrow for a procedure for one of the others). Both kids and therefore parents seem to be sick all the time, insane expenses (hundreds of dollars for summer camps is what my coworker was dealing with last week), kids that scream for no reason, the constant mess, etc. I am sure there is joy when raising kids but the daily issues would drive me nuts and I know I don't have the patience. I actually recently had a scare where I thought I was pregnant and it was hard not to completely panic. This scare ever solidified our decision even more. It is just not the life that I want. We chose our kid free life well before discovering FIRE so there was no correlation there but I do see it makes the FIRE lifestyle much easier.
-
^Makes me think of a Step kid question for the OP to ponder. For those of you who choose not that have kids and weren't interested in raising kids would that include step kids too?
Now ex-DH and I both agreed we didn't want kids before we got married in our early 20s. But once we divorced in our late 30s and I started dating it was if every guy around my age had young kids (or wanted to have kids). I had a couple of serious relationships with guys with young kids, and while the kids were great I just had even less interest in being a step-parent (even just a semi-involved one) then I was having and raising my own kids. Step Kids, especially the young ones but I imagine even older or adult ones, still would have been a big lifestyle changer for me and something I wasn't interested in at all.
I eventually met someone (younger than me) who was also divorced with no kids and didn't want any. He had the same issues I did when dating - either the women he met already had kids or they wanted them and he just wasn't interested in raising kids, even step kids, or changing his lifestyle to accomadate kids. So finding a compatible single person who doesn't have or want kids can.be difficult.
Shout out to all the good step-parents out there. My mom, divorced from my philandering father when I was 12, raised myself and two brothers (11, 7) for four years on her own before she met and married the man who became my step-father. To this day, I don't know what he was thinking. He was in his mid-30's at the time, with two kids of his own from a previous marriage (who lived with their mother). We didn't always see eye-to-eye on things, and he was a tough sonofagun, but I think God every day for bringing that man into my life. He was a saint to have willingly taken on the burden of providing for us kids. He passed suddenly last year, and even though our political viewpoints had diverged greatly over the past decade and it caused some minor rifts between us, I miss the guy every day. He was a good man. Flawed like the rest of us, but just a good and decent human being.
-
Fifty-somethings here with no kids - no regrets, but I'll admit to a few concerns about later life. I'm much more likely to pre-decease my DH, and he's not social at all. Not that having kids would be a panacea!
Neither of us wanted kids when we married, but I will admit to having very strong baby cravings in my mid-30's. $10k worth of medical procedures and a number of miscarriages killed that pretty darn well. By 40 I was back to being just fine without kids. Hormones are funny things.
We've been lucky to have a group of friends, all of whom have kids, who stayed sane and took time every month for dinner as a group (going on 35 years now!) Now their kids are mostly grown, but it really hasn't changed things much.
-
I think it is extremely hard for someone that did not have kids to say they regret it. This is the life they have always lived, usually it is a happy life for them. It is like asking someone that has never traveled "do you miss travelling?" If you never did it, you are happy with your comfortable life and that is that. However, to someone who LOVES to travel and knows the amount of adventure, excitement, etc. that comes with it, a life without travel seems like a missed opportunity. Doesn't mean you can't be perfectly happy without it and I doubt people would regret it. And yet...
Full disclosure: I never wanted or liked kids, but did feel like going for it (on a whim) at 35. Had another at 39. The joy is indescribable (and yes tons of work). BTW still don't like kids (only LOVE mine). So the argument that you get your fix from nieces, etc.. meh..
And I love to travel and we take our kids with us in all our amazing trips. It will delay FIRE for sure, but so worth it.
-
I think it is extremely hard for someone that did not have kids to say they regret it.
I think it is generally harder for people who have had kids to admit that they regret it. Luckily, humans in general can talk themselves into loving pretty much anything "my kids are the best thing I ever did", is no different, better or worse than "I am happy I am child free".
-
I think it is extremely hard for someone that did not have kids to say they regret it. This is the life they have always lived, usually it is a happy life for them. It is like asking someone that has never traveled "do you miss travelling?" If you never did it, you are happy with your comfortable life and that is that. However, to someone who LOVES to travel and knows the amount of adventure, excitement, etc. that comes with it, a life without travel seems like a missed opportunity. Doesn't mean you can't be perfectly happy without it and I doubt people would regret it. And yet...
Full disclosure: I never wanted or liked kids, but did feel like going for it (on a whim) at 35. Had another at 39. The joy is indescribable (and yes tons of work). BTW still don't like kids (only LOVE mine). So the argument that you get your fix from nieces, etc.. meh..
And I love to travel and we take our kids with us in all our amazing trips. It will delay FIRE for sure, but so worth it.
I think a lot of people who still want to remain child free really enjoy being an aunt/uncle or stepparent, not because they need to get any type of "fix." On the other hand, I love my own children (and can admit that parenting is very difficult) and really enjoy being around other children in limited doses. I think kids are a fascinating type of human and watching them grow cognitively and adjust to the world blows my mind unlike anything else that I have experienced. I like kids a heck of a lot more than most adults. I also have to chuckle at the posters who hate it when kids "scream for no reason." They certainly have their reasons, right?
-
I have two who are now 7 and 6. It might be that I usually look forward rather than evaluate past decisions, but I think it is difficult for either 'side' to know whether they would have had better lives, whatever that means, had they decided to have/not have children.
For me FIRE is very relevant to this discussion because I think it all boils down to time.
I am pretty sure I would eventually resent my children if I knew I was working for the next 20-30 years and when not working my free time was taken up ferrying around children to the next scheduled event in their lives. I can understand getting to a point of feeling 'regret' if you lose the fact that its your life and you only have one. You see too many parents who seem to only live to provide the perfect conditions for their 'precious ones' to thrive - and they can indeed be very boring as someone has pointed out.
Thankfully though, at 11 months from FIRE, I am looking forward to having enough free time for the things I want to do, without it competing with time for my kids. It already feels completely different driving the kids to some swimming gala, blowing up half a Saturday, as I know in 11 months I will have just spent the Friday doing whatever the hell I wanted rather than sat in an office.
I hope and believe this will be the best of both worlds - but we are all mental gymnasts when it comes to convincing ourselves that we made the right decision!
So for me it is all about time.
-
I think it is extremely hard for someone that did not have kids to say they regret it.
I think it is generally harder for people who have had kids to admit that they regret it. Luckily, humans in general can talk themselves into loving pretty much anything "my kids are the best thing I ever did", is no different, better or worse than "I am happy I am child free".
Yes. It would probably be harder to admit that, and very sad. But if you don't have the experience you truly have no idea what you are missing. Whereas I know exactly how my life would be without kids (spoiler: it would still be great). But high risks do come with high rewards (and yes, no guarantees).
-
I'm 48, female, childfree by choice, and don't regret my decision at all. I have friends and family with kids and don't envy their lives in the least. I see their family pictures on FB and hear about their lives and never, ever think to myself, "Oh, I wish I had that." Instead, I frequently think to myself, "I am so, so relieved I don't have kids." Like Missy B., I met a man my age who doesn't have kids either, and we lead active, fulfilling lives just the two of us. I also frequently think to myself, "I am so, so relieved that (bf) doesn't have kids."
-
I’m not sure if my perspective is relevant to this thread, because I am both younger than the OP and have a child by choice. But I’m going to add it regardless.
I knew from a very young age that I wanted to adopt. I got married t 19 without adequately discussing this desire and we both really struggled with our conflicting desires. He wanted biological kids, and while I wasn’t 100% against it, the truth was that I really didn’t want them. Here’s where I feel my experience has some relavemce. I cannot even count the number of people who have told me I would change my mind, would miss out on what it is to be a woman, was being selfish, would regret it, etc. It seemed almost nobody could fathom why I didn’t want to get pregnant and bring an entire human into existence.
I’m 30 now, have been divorced for about 6 years, am in the process of adopting my foster daughter, and am completely happy and confident in my choices. Obviously my path is not that of the OP or other childless by choice posters and I’m not advocating that people should do what I’m doing. I’m merely sharing that making intentional reproductive choices that go against very vocal societal norms didn’t cause any regret whatsoever for me. My life is exactly the one I chose and that brings me a lot of joy.
Have kids, don’t have kids, adopt kids or marry someone with kids... it’s totally up to you. I believe that living a life without regrets has more to do with being intentional with our choices than anything else.
-
I feel there's a reporting bias in that parents who regret having kids won't speak up because of the huge taboo and for fear of hurting their kids.
Also, how much time does it really take to raise kids? I feel like parents often take too much time and are overprotective. I often think I'd have grown up faster without overprotective parents watching my back from 0 to 18. Being left to my own devices would have been beneficial. Given this, why take such a huge burden with the kids?
I'd like to have kids but minimally take care of them, except maybe at a very young age (0-5). Play with them, take care of the necessities, but otherwise get them with friends and let them do their thing. Also have the mom take the lion share of the raising, and myself escape into work or travel. Does that result in bad kids?
I honestly can't see myself held back by those fuckers for 18 years non stop. But then, if my GF wants, I don't mind making her happy with it provided that she'll spend more time than me raising them. Isn't that fair? Otherwise we can just not have them and I wouldn't mind that much.
what happens if your wife gets sick or dies and can't take care of the kids (or you) any longer? What happens if she decides she wants to work and travel and have you be the homemaker and caregiver? What happens if she walks out the door with some young stud and leaves the kids with you fu'll time?
Uh, yes. My dad was left with 6 kids aged 11 to 6 months when his wife died. After all the dust settled, he had four (the youngest two were adopted by uncles). He didn't meet/ marry my mother until 6-7 years later.
Interestingly, he was a very "hands off" (and honestly, not a great) parent with me and my younger brother. A few years ago, my eldest sister was telling me about how he was after their mother died - and it was completely the opposite. He was super involved, loving, patient. The kind of thing you'd expect a father to be these days (in the 2010's), but was less expected back in the 1960s. After I was born he reverted back to the way it was then.
Just about anything can result in bad kids, but I'd say to gerardc you don't want to be involved with them, then don't have them? The song "Cat's in the Cradle" comes to mind.
As far as "getting them their own friends", don't worry about that...that starts around age 6. After that, parents are "boring" and "I want a play date", and seriously - any vacation or weekend WITHOUT hooking up with friends is the worst.weekend.ever. (Or vacation).
I think it's important to stand your ground if you don't want kids. I'm an engineer, and a lot of my friends are engineers and many of them PhDs in academia. Needless to say, that's a tough environment to have kids in when you are chasing tenure. And thus, many of them don't have children (I'm 47, and my friends are 45-50, most of the profs don't have children.)
-
My DH is 54 and I'm 51, been married for 27 years, so I think we qualify to answer!
We married in our 20s and were going down the path of having kids (because... well, didn't everybody?). I was working full time and going to college at night/weekends (late bloomer). We started talking about the logistics of daycare. It dawned on me then that it didn't seem right to intentionally have a child and then not be with it all day. I was just starting my career path and he certainly didn't want to stay home. I then asked the question, 'what if we didn't have kids?', he said he'd be okay with that. We like kids overall, but when we started to think about what we'd have to give up, and the actual work that would be devoted, and the fact that most of that work would fall to me, we realized that we didn't want kids THAT bad. We liked the idea of having kids, but honestly, didn't want to put in the work we think they deserve. We agreed to say no for now, but we could re-visit. We never re-visited. We both have zero regrets as we know that it was the right decision for us. Sometimes, I think, maybe we're just selfish.... but then I am glad that we were self-aware enough to make this decision thoughtfully.
As we worked our way through our 20s - 40s we did find it harder to socialize. Our friends were generally our neighbors who all had small kids and evenings out were always interesting, but it was hard to connect. We also tended to have older friends who's children were grown. We had only 1 CF couple as friends.... just didn't know any. Now, with things like Meet-up, and the internet at large, we find it pretty easy to socialize and make friends.
Since we know that children won't be there for us in our old age (no guarantees either way), we're making sure that we're financially covered. We would want to do this whether we had kids or not, as we wouldn't want to be a burden to our kids.
I'm sometimes asked if I think I missed out.... but, you know, there are plenty of opportunities to get involved with children (including plenty of nieces and nephews) and the fact that we never sought out any of those opportunities, tells me that being heavily involved with children just isn't something we gravitate towards. We're both really great around children (well, except the assholes), but that's because it is in small doses....it's very different when you're raising them.
I also think that we've had an easier marriage, because we don't have the stress of children. (also family doesn't live near so no drama there either). I'd like to think that we could weather anything, but honestly, our marriage has never really been tested by stress - it's been pretty chill.
So for us, having children wasn't a "Hell Yeah!".... so we said no.
-
We made the decision not to have kids when I was 25 (a decade ago) and I got cut. There were a number of reasons but the biggest were the cost and not really having any desire to have kids. At the time of the decision we had agreed that if we changed our minds there were lots of really great kids we could adopt and would choose to go that route. We don't have anything against kids, but we legitimately have no parental desire at all to have them, 10 years later we still don't. We have nieces and nephews that we love, spoil, and we take them whenever we can. But after a few days it's nice to load them up on sugar and toss them back to the parents!
We sit and listen to all our friends and family talk about the financial implications of having kids and our jaws drop. Soccer season, football, baseball, softball year round, band, etc... and I have no idea how this is possible. Not knocking anyone that makes that choice, but that isn't for us. It does impact us a bit socially with some of our friends. Once a certain sport season comes around pretty much every weekend they are gone. I suppose if we had kids we would still be in those social circles but who knows.
The great thing is being able to drop whatever we are doing and going somewhere. Glacier Nation Park for a week? Put in vacation time and go. Weekend trip to Toronto? Drive to and fly from Chicago within a few hours. We are very spontaneous in those regards and it is really great to have that flexibility.
-
The question as give implies a child centrism.
In my life I have many regrets. But not having children is not one of them. While I understand why people love their own children; I’ve never understood the warm and fuzzy feels people have about children in general. It’s a weird idealization not connected to actual children. Maybe because I moved so much growing up and remember other children as the insufferable little assholes they were. Including, at times myself, who despite being bullied would just as soon bully a weaker child if given the chance. I loathe the western Cult of the Child, where everything must be sacrificed for “teh childrens” and the accompanying helicopter parents.
Meh. Either I’m right and people should stop that shit or I’m wrong and unfit to parent. On a personal level it’s a win either way.
This post made me giggle.
I agree about the cult of kids. Kids are just small humans, and about half the humans I've ever met are stupid as shit; another large percentage have some kind of personality problem that make them difficult to deal with; and then there is another whole set that have parents that suck at parenting, and screw them up in some way. I'm not sure how the venn diagram overlap works for these sets, but the bottom line is people are people and a lot of people are just kind of unpleasant to be around. Kids are the same, except without self awareness, self control, or long term societal conditioning to properly curb their worst characteristics. They can't help it! So I don't understand why our culture glorifies either kids or parenting. If you want to have kids, that's fine, and hopefully you take it seriously and try to do it well, but even when you mostly do it well there is no guarantee of raising a functional, nice, good person (however you might define it).
-
The question as give implies a child centrism.
In my life I have many regrets. But not having children is not one of them. While I understand why people love their own children; I’ve never understood the warm and fuzzy feels people have about children in general. It’s a weird idealization not connected to actual children. Maybe because I moved so much growing up and remember other children as the insufferable little assholes they were. Including, at times myself, who despite being bullied would just as soon bully a weaker child if given the chance. I loathe the western Cult of the Child, where everything must be sacrificed for “teh childrens” and the accompanying helicopter parents.
Meh. Either I’m right and people should stop that shit or I’m wrong and unfit to parent. On a personal level it’s a win either way.
This post made me giggle.
I agree about the cult of kids. Kids are just small humans, and about half the humans I've ever met are stupid as shit; another large percentage have some kind of personality problem that make them difficult to deal with; and then there is another whole set that have parents that suck at parenting, and screw them up in some way. I'm not sure how the venn diagram overlap works for these sets, but the bottom line is people are people and a lot of people are just kind of unpleasant to be around. Kids are the same, except without self awareness, self control, or long term societal conditioning to properly curb their worst characteristics. They can't help it! So I don't understand why our culture glorifies either kids or parenting. If you want to have kids, that's fine, and hopefully you take it seriously and try to do it well, but even when you mostly do it well there is no guarantee of raising a functional, nice, good person (however you might define it).
I'm not really "into kids" like some people are, but of course, I love mine. And I've gotten connected with nieces and nephews and friends' kids. Because, they are attached to my friends. They are their own little people. But I don't gravitate to kids in general, and never have.
Our culture does not glorify kids and parenting. You only have to read some complainy-pants anywhere talking about kids on planes or in restaurants (even if they are well-behaving!) to know that. Especially compared to other places and cultures like Latin America or Europe, which are much more family and kid friendly and accepting.
-
I think it is extremely hard for someone that did not have kids to say they regret it.
I think it is generally harder for people who have had kids to admit that they regret it. Luckily, humans in general can talk themselves into loving pretty much anything "my kids are the best thing I ever did", is no different, better or worse than "I am happy I am child free".
Yes. It would probably be harder to admit that, and very sad. But if you don't have the experience you truly have no idea what you are missing. Whereas I know exactly how my life would be without kids (spoiler: it would still be great). But high risks do come with high rewards (and yes, no guarantees).
One could say that about many other major life experiences. However, parenting is unique in that if you do end up with major regrets, you can't reverse your decision and may end up damaging an innocent child in the process.
If someone genuinely wants children and is in a position to care for them, then they should absolutely have kids! I think that's great because kids are great, and happy, engaged parents will likely raise their children to be good adults. But the argument that "you truly have no idea what you are missing" isn't going to change the minds of those of us who really don't want to raise children.
-
FWIW, I don't know if I qualify since I turned in my childfree card when I adopted a teenager out of foster care, but I can tell you for certain that no matter how much you love a kid it's still a massive sacrifice.
Becoming a parent, for me, turned out to be a net loss physically, emotionally, socially, and financially. Prior to finalization there were a few moments of shared fun and laughter in between the drama and the mystery illnesses. She did make an effort to succeed in school and not be abusive. There was no up-side after finalization because her behavior changed radically to the point where she became not just financially abusive but verbally, physically, and emotionally abusive. What we ended up with, thanks to a phenomenon called Reactive Attachment Disorder, is a one-sided bond. I love the kid with all my heart, but she behaves although she hates my guts and regards me as nothing more than someone to be used and manipulated for profit. Although she occasionally makes mouth noises to the contrary when she wants something out of me, after finalization she turned into an epic drama machine out of a badly written Lifeline movie. Nothing I did was ever good enough, she trashed pretty much everything she was given, and really she would have been far better off in an institutional setting. Her behavior problems made her ineducable in a school setting even with Special Ed.
A few days after she turned 18, after several months of gallivanting, blatant disobedience, and routine runaway behavior and emotional abuse that was deliberately enabled by her lowlife friends and her bio-family, my daughter finally moved out for good. She threw a gigantic tantrum when I asked her to do some housework for the gas money she wanted, and she decided to move out for good. I helped her do it and saw to it she had all her belongings, title to a car that was in good running order, her furniture which had been new less than 3 years before (but which she'd trashed), and the last of the college savings I'd set aside for her that she hadn't managed to steal. Naturally she blew through all the money in a few weeks. When the money ran out, so did her lowlife friends, boyfriend, and bio-family.
She's asked twice to move back home, but I haven't allowed her to do so. It took several weeks to repair the holes she'd pounded into the walls, the carpet she'd trashed, the doors she'd bashed holes into or ripped the jambs out of the wall, and the rest of what she'd done to my home with her violent tantrums and overall refusal to clean up after herself due to her commitment to pig-culture. I simply can't afford to re-replace the things she broke, gave away to lowlifes (why were my spoons always gone?) or damaged permanently because she couldn't be bothered to come home when I was there and ask how to use things like the laundry rack, so stomping on it and smashing part of it seemed like a better idea. If I let her move back in, all that would happen is that she'd bash her way through the repairs I made to my home while shrieking at me, throwing things at me, hitting me, cussing me out, disappearing for days at a time, having another pregnancy scare, dropping out of even more high schools because three wasn't enough, and lying to people about how badly I supposedly treat her so that I'd be fending off accusations of abuse and neglect all over again. I can't deal with the daily interruptions at work or with being woken up at 2 AM on a work night by her standing over me in my bedroom, demanding to use my phone. She refuses to address the behaviors that are consistent with a galloping personality disorder or full-on mental illness, so allowing her a continued entitlement to my home just doesn't seem wise. I do help her by providing for her medical insurance and paying her medical expenses such as her wisdom tooth removal in January, and I've bought her some toiletries last time we were at the drugstore when she needed me for a co-pay on a prescription. Other than that, I haven't seen her.
As a result of the tough love approach, she's made forward progress: she's been actually working and holding down a full-time job, which was something she refused to do while she lived with me. She's also learning to live within her means instead of spending like a Kardashian and then demanding that everyone else around her fork out money for her necessities. She's renting a room from a relative who is struggling with an addiction and now understands the value of a drama-free household.
Initially my parents were thrilled about getting a grandchild, but my daughter has treated both of them with such disrespect that they no longer acknowledge her existence. It kind of sucks because she was in a position to inherit millions: all she had to do was be halfway decent to people. From my perspective the only good things to come out of this adoption have been my niece (one of my daughter's cousins, whose parents are deceased, is going to college and is a regular part of my life) and the Venomous Spaz Beast. All the positive emotions I thought I might have experienced through parenthood have come to me as a direct result of the VSB. Had I known dogs were so amazing, I'd have skipped the whole adoption thing and gone straight to the Chihuahua.
I cannot legally reverse the decision to adopt my daughter however now that she's legally an adult I am no longer required to tolerate her abuse and can keep enough distance between her and me to ensure that such interactions we have are mostly positive. Tough love is actually working: she's maturing and doing some of the things she should have been doing for years, such as working and putting a lid on her temper.
If you've never been physically attacked in your own living room or had to completely renovate a third of your house due to massive damage by a violent mentally ill person who has the legal right to enter your home at any time, you have no idea what you're missing. You can be as happy, engaged, well prepared, and proactive as you want, and you will still be treated (by the kid, the system, and all the flying monkeys) as something to be scraped off the bottom of one's shoe. Any childfree people out there who are being swayed by the notion that becoming parents, particularly by adopting out of foster care... DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!
The only foster care adoptions that are successful are the ones that come naturally out of the fostering process, when the kid and the foster family click, the kid actually likes and cares for the foster family and wants to be part of the family, and parental rights are terminated. If you're into fostering as a lifestyle (and I know dozens of people who are), then yes, sometimes you'll get to keep the kid for yourself and it will be good. Otherwise, it's kind of like reaching into a garbage disposal when it's running because you heard a rumor that someone dropped a diamond ring down there. I'm still recovering from the cluster fuck abomination that my adoption turned out to be. Sickeningly, I still love my daughter, enjoy her company when she's not throwing a tantrum or acting like a manipulative velociraptor, and want her to succeed.
-
I'm 46 and DH is 44. We've been married 21 years and are happily childfree. I was pretty sure I never wanted kids. even as a child. My parents had to get married because my mom got pregnant with me, and my parents (especially my dad) made me feel like an unpleasant burden. We are estranged now, so an example that just because one has children it is no guarantee that they will be there later in life. I don't think they understood that treating me poorly for the first 18 years would mean that at some point I would cut them off.
I will say that I've gotten passive aggressive grief from my in-laws for not having kids. For instance, at a wedding my FIL introduced me as his son's wife and childless. Or he will refer in Christmas letters to my SIL (that has given them grandkids) as his daughter-in-law, whereas I am only his son's wife.
-
I don't have kids. I thought I would when I was younger. I kind of had a loose plan on what I wanted to accomplish and in what steps, and it took me longer than I expected I guess. I can't imagine having them now. I enjoy the freedom to do whatever I want. If I want a dose of kids, I visit with my 3 nephews who live down the street.
This leaves me with my pets, who I cherish.
No regrets. Especially when my buddy over the weekend calculated what he will spend on his single kid over the first 18 years. Ouch.
I know I am missing out on parenthood, but then, maybe I am not.
-
I will say that I've gotten passive aggressive grief from my in-laws for not having kids. For instance, at a wedding my FIL introduced me as his son's wife and childless. Or he will refer in Christmas letters to my SIL (that has given them grandkids) as his daughter-in-law, whereas I am only his son's wife.
WTH? That's fucked up and very light on the passive part of passive-aggressive!
-
*snip*
I think of you a lot when these discussions come up. What heartbreak. I know others who have adopted teenagers from foster care, and they recognize that the attachment from child to parent is unlikely to happen.
It is encouraging, however, that your daughter seems to be getting her act together a bit.
Oh boy what people can really do to screw up their kids forever. It's a shame.
-
I decided to not have children. I was very happy with this decision. However, you may change your mind when you get older, and hopefully its not too late. It's funny, as I get older, particularly around the holidays, sometimes I wish I had kids and eventually grandkids to spend it with. I do think as you get older this becomes more of a concern, particularly after your own immediate family begins to die off. All that said, my fiance has a child, which has been nice.
-
I feel there's a reporting bias in that parents who regret having kids won't speak up because of the huge taboo and for fear of hurting their kids.
Also, how much time does it really take to raise kids? I feel like parents often take too much time and are overprotective. I often think I'd have grown up faster without overprotective parents watching my back from 0 to 18. Being left to my own devices would have been beneficial. Given this, why take such a huge burden with the kids?
I'd like to have kids but minimally take care of them, except maybe at a very young age (0-5). Play with them, take care of the necessities, but otherwise get them with friends and let them do their thing. Also have the mom take the lion share of the raising, and myself escape into work or travel. Does that result in bad kids?
I honestly can't see myself held back by those fuckers for 18 years non stop. But then, if my GF wants, I don't mind making her happy with it provided that she'll spend more time than me raising them. Isn't that fair? Otherwise we can just not have them and I wouldn't mind that much.
what happens if your wife gets sick or dies and can't take care of the kids (or you) any longer? What happens if she decides she wants to work and travel and have you be the homemaker and caregiver? What happens if she walks out the door with some young stud and leaves the kids with you fu'll time?
If the wife dies, I would hire a nanny with the life insurance policy. If my spouse gets sick, regardless of kids, the outcome is the same, kids really don't change the fact that a major illness in a spouse is devastating. If she wants to work and travel, again, hire a nanny with some of each of your wages (delay FIRE). If she walks out, take care of them or hire a nanny (at least with kids I might not be expected to give up 50% in the ensuing divorce, particularly the house). These are exactly the responses I would make to each of those scenarios, not terribly exciting or difficult to answer.
As a counterpoint, what would anyone do if their spouse became critically ill or walked out on them? Is it easier for you simply because you're CF? A lot of experiences aren't different for any of us just because some people have kids.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized. Then the decision is made and you'll never need to agonize about it. Early-ish in relationship that fact can be mentioned in passing. The person you're dating can decide wheher that's a deal breaker. Sometimes potential partners think that you'll change your mind or that they can change you mind.
A male relative of mind is a serial monogamous (well, mostly monogamous) who decided early on that he didn't want kids. A succession of women thought that he would change his mind because, of course, he would want their child. His life (and potential partners) became easier once he had a vasectomy and they knew he was serious.
I got a tubal ligation in my 20s - 40 years ago so it is possible at all ages.
-
My point was that he didn't apparently want the life and responsibility of being a parent, but would do it (at least get spouse pregnant and financially support her and kids) if she did the majority of the care giving and child raising and he can just go work and play.
I was just saying that sometimes s hit happens and he might find himself alone as both the financial provider AND only parent (or possibly caring for a sick spouse and/or sick kid(s) as well long term) and would he be OK with that. For those of us who grew up in one parent/divorced household its a fuck-ton of work for the single parent. Even if you get full time 24/7 care for the kids with a live-in nanny, I would imagine most kids will still need some parental care and love and time.
I agree that stuff happens, but using an example of a spousal death as a reason to avoid kids is off the mark. Not every calamity is kid centric, lots of stuff sucks regardless. You could have made the exact same arguments for remaining single; what if you get divorced? what if they get sick? what if they die and leave you wracked with grief? Is that easier for you than it is for me, I doubt it, I imagine your pain would be equally large.
Life insurance or long term diability insurance is readily available and can be the primary financial provider in the case of death or illness. If I die or become diagnosed with a terminal disease today, my spouse doesn't become the main provider for our family, the insurance company will be.
If you feel the OP needs to think about your questions, I agree with you. I have also thought through the answers in my situation and feel they are valid responses. How would you recommend dealing with each of those situations? I think you should go a step farther and answer your questions as well, how would you handle a sick spouse, are you prepared?
Attempting to illicit a fear response to avoid kids is heavy handed. You could do the same for making the case of remaining single, an equally valid way of living.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized.
I'd caution against this at a young age. How you think about this at 25 can change drastically by the time you hit 35.
-
My point was that he didn't apparently want the life and responsibility of being a parent, but would do it (at least get spouse pregnant and financially support her and kids) if she did the majority of the care giving and child raising and he can just go work and play.
I was just saying that sometimes s hit happens and he might find himself alone as both the financial provider AND only parent (or possibly caring for a sick spouse and/or sick kid(s) as well long term) and would he be OK with that. For those of us who grew up in one parent/divorced household its a fuck-ton of work for the single parent. Even if you get full time 24/7 care for the kids with a live-in nanny, I would imagine most kids will still need some parental care and love and time.
I agree that stuff happens, but using an example of a spousal death as a reason to avoid kids is off the mark. Not every calamity is kid centric, lots of stuff sucks regardless. You could have made the exact same arguments for remaining single; what if you get divorced? what if they get sick? what if they die and leave you wracked with grief? Is that easier for you than it is for me, I doubt it, I imagine your pain would be equally large.
Life insurance or long term diability insurance is readily available and can be the primary financial provider in the case of death or illness. If I die or become diagnosed with a terminal disease today, my spouse doesn't become the main provider for our family, the insurance company will be.
If you feel the OP needs to think about your questions, I agree with you. I have also thought through the answers in my situation and feel they are valid responses. How would you recommend dealing with each of those situations? I think you should go a step farther and answer your questions as well, how would you handle a sick spouse, are you prepared?
Attempting to illicit a fear response to avoid kids is heavy handed. You could do the same for making the case of remaining single, an equally valid way of living.
My husband did die when my biological kids were very young and I became the adoptive parent of my teenaged stepdaughter because her birth mother was unable/unwilling to provide even basic care for her. Basically every decision I've had to make in the past 10 years has been child-centric because, well just because. There's no handing them off for the weekend to the other parent because that's not an option. And I get it. It's the price of love and the price of having children and it's how it is.
My best friend is child free by choice. We completely accept each other. I temper somewhat things that are understandably boring to her like carpools and parent-teacher meetings. She slightly dials back on things like lounging in bed on Sunday mornings with her rugby player husband, but I did listen with interest (and ok a little envy) when they flew off to Cabo for a weekend to escape the rain. She and I love and respect each other, and issue of having kids/not having them is there, but in no way an obstacle to our friendship. We all don't have the same choices in life.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized.
Most breeders should be be sterilized also. Many of the rejects are the ones having kids, putting the burden on the rest of society. Just look around. I'm not referring to anyone reading this forum of course.
-
No kids here.
A friend once asked me "Was not having kids your choice or God's choice for you?" I'm not religious, but I knew what she meant. She was asking whether we didn't have kids because we were not biologically able to, or if we just made the decision not to. The question did not feel at all inappropriate coming from her; she has four kids she adores, so she was just exploring the ways other people think and make decisions about the topic.
I told her God and I (and my husband) agreed on the issue.
I have absolutely zero maternal urges or instinct. Never have. And I agree with the other posters who have said something to the effect of "You should REALLY want kids if you decide to have them." I never really felt that sense of "want."
-
No kids here.
A friend once asked me "Was not having kids your choice or God's choice for you?" I'm not religious, but I knew what she meant. She was asking whether we didn't have kids because we were not biologically able to, or if we just made the decision not to. The question did not feel at all inappropriate coming from her; she has four kids she adores, so she was just exploring the ways other people think and make decisions about the topic.
I told her God and I (and my husband) agreed on the issue.
I have absolutely zero maternal urges or instinct. Never have. And I agree with the other posters who have said something to the effect of "You should REALLY want kids if you decide to have them." I never really felt that sense of "want."
Only people who really want kids should have them, but nobody should think that just really wanting them is enough to have them.
-
50 is around the corner for me. My spouse and I got together late in life and while we did want children, it wasn’t in the cards for us. I suppose adoption was an option, but my then we were exhausted by the process and didn’t have the desire to start that. Looking back now, I can’t say we wouldn’t have been happy with kids, but we are not happy without. We have been able to travel and enjoy our rewarding but demanding careers in a way that we probably wouldn’t have otherwise.
About regrets. I remember once my grandmother saying it is never possible to live a life without regrets. One choice may close the door to another. The key is to make sure the regrets are worthwhile. When someone asks me (a woman) if I regret not having kids, I ask them: do you regret not living in Rome for a year or writing theee books? The point is we all make choices and they all are good if we embrace then and our lives.
-
Someone asked above about the difficulty getting tubes tied. I was denied until I got married, and then it took three years of arguing with hesitant doctors to finally get it done. It was a really frustrating process.
-
I'm a woman in my forties and I have never wanted children of my own. I've been a preschool teacher for my entire career and I love kids... I also love saying goodbye to them at the end of the school day and handing them back to their parents :)
At one point in my mid thirties I thought I should freeze my eggs or something, just in case I changed my mind about the whole baby thing one day. However, with every passing year I am more and more certain of my decision to stay childless. Zero regrets so far.
-
My point was that he didn't apparently want the life and responsibility of being a parent, but would do it (at least get spouse pregnant and financially support her and kids) if she did the majority of the care giving and child raising and he can just go work and play.
I was just saying that sometimes s hit happens and he might find himself alone as both the financial provider AND only parent (or possibly caring for a sick spouse and/or sick kid(s) as well long term) and would he be OK with that. For those of us who grew up in one parent/divorced household its a fuck-ton of work for the single parent. Even if you get full time 24/7 care for the kids with a live-in nanny, I would imagine most kids will still need some parental care and love and time.
I agree that stuff happens, but using an example of a spousal death as a reason to avoid kids is off the mark. Not every calamity is kid centric, lots of stuff sucks regardless. You could have made the exact same arguments for remaining single; what if you get divorced? what if they get sick? what if they die and leave you wracked with grief? Is that easier for you than it is for me, I doubt it, I imagine your pain would be equally large.
Life insurance or long term diability insurance is readily available and can be the primary financial provider in the case of death or illness. If I die or become diagnosed with a terminal disease today, my spouse doesn't become the main provider for our family, the insurance company will be.
If you feel the OP needs to think about your questions, I agree with you. I have also thought through the answers in my situation and feel they are valid responses. How would you recommend dealing with each of those situations? I think you should go a step farther and answer your questions as well, how would you handle a sick spouse, are you prepared?
Attempting to illicit a fear response to avoid kids is heavy handed. You could do the same for making the case of remaining single, an equally valid way of living.
I was not intending to illicit a fear response in @gerardc (not OP) but a responsibility response. He said " the little fuckers wont hold me back [from living his dream life of no or little parental responsibility the way he wants] for 18 years" (paraphrasing a bit) and I was just saying that they may if something happens to his SO or she chooses a different life path. So if his only reason for choosing to have kids is to appease his SO he needs to consider he may end up in a full time parental caregiver roll.
In the off chance I become the only parent, it should be fine. I only want 1-2 kids anyway, and I'm flexible with what happens. I also wouldn't get married. I'm mostly FIRE so if my GF walks or tries to pull a fast one, I should be able to handle my part of the child care without too many repercussions.
As a result of the tough love approach, she's made forward progress: she's been actually working and holding down a full-time job, which was something she refused to do while she lived with me. She's also learning to live within her means instead of spending like a Kardashian and then demanding that everyone else around her fork out money for her necessities. She's renting a room from a relative who is struggling with an addiction and now understands the value of a drama-free household.
I still think less parental supervision would be beneficial. Kids these days mature so late in life, and only when they need to (during their twenties, careers taking off in their 30s), i.e. only when they're not backed by their parents anymore. Why delay this? Why not getting them take responsibility much earlier in life? This whole pampering from 0-18 is wasted time.
Of course, it's a society problem. The law gives kids all the rights in the world, so they abuse it. As a parent, you can't do anything against this abuse, as demonstrated by the story above. It's ridiculous.
-
I'm not qualified to answer the OP's question as someone who is still at an age where I can have a kid if I want, but...
I don't know about the actual numbers, but I remember a number of years back when I found myself in a pickle re: having kids/not having kids, I discovered a website that was pages and pages of confessions from people who greatly regretted having kids. It was horrifying, heart-wrenching, and sobering. There are many out who regret having them if that website was any indication.
I’ve seen those before, and they are heartbreaking. For someone who thinks they don’t want kids, I’d imagine later regret about not having them would be far easier to handle (and less damaging) than regret about having them. Kids tend to know when they aren’t wanted.
Yep, this. I think I might maybe feel a bit of wistfulness about not having kids, but as someone who has never felt passionately about it, it would be more of a "it could be nice I guess, except I really don't want to do the work of childrearing lol" which is way more manageable than how trapped I'd feel if I have kids and regretted the loss of my freedom and was just counting down the days till they can be independent... and that's if you're lucky. I used to work in a restaurant and often on Sundays there was this old guy who would come in with his physically and mentally impaired adult daughter. He has to support her when she walks, he has to feed her before eating his own meal. She can maybe speak just a few words with great difficulty, so it's not as if you could at least explore the joy of conversation together. I know the risk of that is tiny, but. I read a Reddit thread once about people who are in situations like that: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/sl93q/get_out_the_throwaways_dear_parents_of_disabled/
People who really want to have kids are willing to take that risk. I'm not curious enough about the experience to take that risk.
-
@TheGrimSqueaker: Wow, what an incredible story! I am so sorry for what you have been through. I am in awe of all you have dealt with. Beyond that, words utterly fail me...
-
FWIW, I don't know if I qualify since I turned in my childfree card when I adopted a teenager out of foster care, but I can tell you for certain that no matter how much you love a kid it's still a massive sacrifice.
Becoming a parent, for me, turned out to be a net loss physically, emotionally, socially, and financially. Prior to finalization there were a few moments of shared fun and laughter in between the drama and the mystery illnesses. She did make an effort to succeed in school and not be abusive. There was no up-side after finalization because her behavior changed radically to the point where she became not just financially abusive but verbally, physically, and emotionally abusive. What we ended up with, thanks to a phenomenon called Reactive Attachment Disorder, is a one-sided bond. I love the kid with all my heart, but she behaves although she hates my guts and regards me as nothing more than someone to be used and manipulated for profit. Although she occasionally makes mouth noises to the contrary when she wants something out of me, after finalization she turned into an epic drama machine out of a badly written Lifeline movie. Nothing I did was ever good enough, she trashed pretty much everything she was given, and really she would have been far better off in an institutional setting. Her behavior problems made her ineducable in a school setting even with Special Ed.
A few days after she turned 18, after several months of gallivanting, blatant disobedience, and routine runaway behavior and emotional abuse that was deliberately enabled by her lowlife friends and her bio-family, my daughter finally moved out for good. She threw a gigantic tantrum when I asked her to do some housework for the gas money she wanted, and she decided to move out for good. I helped her do it and saw to it she had all her belongings, title to a car that was in good running order, her furniture which had been new less than 3 years before (but which she'd trashed), and the last of the college savings I'd set aside for her that she hadn't managed to steal. Naturally she blew through all the money in a few weeks. When the money ran out, so did her lowlife friends, boyfriend, and bio-family.
She's asked twice to move back home, but I haven't allowed her to do so. It took several weeks to repair the holes she'd pounded into the walls, the carpet she'd trashed, the doors she'd bashed holes into or ripped the jambs out of the wall, and the rest of what she'd done to my home with her violent tantrums and overall refusal to clean up after herself due to her commitment to pig-culture. I simply can't afford to re-replace the things she broke, gave away to lowlifes (why were my spoons always gone?) or damaged permanently because she couldn't be bothered to come home when I was there and ask how to use things like the laundry rack, so stomping on it and smashing part of it seemed like a better idea. If I let her move back in, all that would happen is that she'd bash her way through the repairs I made to my home while shrieking at me, throwing things at me, hitting me, cussing me out, disappearing for days at a time, having another pregnancy scare, dropping out of even more high schools because three wasn't enough, and lying to people about how badly I supposedly treat her so that I'd be fending off accusations of abuse and neglect all over again. I can't deal with the daily interruptions at work or with being woken up at 2 AM on a work night by her standing over me in my bedroom, demanding to use my phone. She refuses to address the behaviors that are consistent with a galloping personality disorder or full-on mental illness, so allowing her a continued entitlement to my home just doesn't seem wise. I do help her by providing for her medical insurance and paying her medical expenses such as her wisdom tooth removal in January, and I've bought her some toiletries last time we were at the drugstore when she needed me for a co-pay on a prescription. Other than that, I haven't seen her.
As a result of the tough love approach, she's made forward progress: she's been actually working and holding down a full-time job, which was something she refused to do while she lived with me. She's also learning to live within her means instead of spending like a Kardashian and then demanding that everyone else around her fork out money for her necessities. She's renting a room from a relative who is struggling with an addiction and now understands the value of a drama-free household.
Initially my parents were thrilled about getting a grandchild, but my daughter has treated both of them with such disrespect that they no longer acknowledge her existence. It kind of sucks because she was in a position to inherit millions: all she had to do was be halfway decent to people. From my perspective the only good things to come out of this adoption have been my niece (one of my daughter's cousins, whose parents are deceased, is going to college and is a regular part of my life) and the Venomous Spaz Beast. All the positive emotions I thought I might have experienced through parenthood have come to me as a direct result of the VSB. Had I known dogs were so amazing, I'd have skipped the whole adoption thing and gone straight to the Chihuahua.
I cannot legally reverse the decision to adopt my daughter however now that she's legally an adult I am no longer required to tolerate her abuse and can keep enough distance between her and me to ensure that such interactions we have are mostly positive. Tough love is actually working: she's maturing and doing some of the things she should have been doing for years, such as working and putting a lid on her temper.
If you've never been physically attacked in your own living room or had to completely renovate a third of your house due to massive damage by a violent mentally ill person who has the legal right to enter your home at any time, you have no idea what you're missing. You can be as happy, engaged, well prepared, and proactive as you want, and you will still be treated (by the kid, the system, and all the flying monkeys) as something to be scraped off the bottom of one's shoe. Any childfree people out there who are being swayed by the notion that becoming parents, particularly by adopting out of foster care... DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!
The only foster care adoptions that are successful are the ones that come naturally out of the fostering process, when the kid and the foster family click, the kid actually likes and cares for the foster family and wants to be part of the family, and parental rights are terminated. If you're into fostering as a lifestyle (and I know dozens of people who are), then yes, sometimes you'll get to keep the kid for yourself and it will be good. Otherwise, it's kind of like reaching into a garbage disposal when it's running because you heard a rumor that someone dropped a diamond ring down there. I'm still recovering from the cluster fuck abomination that my adoption turned out to be. Sickeningly, I still love my daughter, enjoy her company when she's not throwing a tantrum or acting like a manipulative velociraptor, and want her to succeed.
HOLY. SHIT. Wow. That was a very sobering post. Thank you for your honesty and sharing it here. My wife and I discussed fostering/adopting a foster kid (as a way to address my concerns about being an old dad -- if we adopted a kid who was 6 - 8, it would be like having had a kid at 40 instead of nearly 50), and after researching it quite a bit, I just came away with the impression that the vast majority of these kids are just too damaged to live normal lives (your reaching into the garbage disposal analogy(!)), and I was honest enough with myself to say that I didn't want the burden of trying to rehabilitate a damaged human being. It's an honorable thing for one who is so inclined to do, but I wasn't that person. I feel terrible for these kids, but I had no desire to beat my head against a brick wall for a decade or more. Not worth it to me.
-
47 years old, single and child free by choice. I knew from around the age of 12 I didn't want children, and have zero regrets, other than being unable to find a partner who didn't want or have children (yet!).
I grew up in a large extended family, and as virtually the only girl was expected to babysit my brother and cousins. I found that children are, on the most part, annoying, dirty, repetitive, destructive and exhausting (they can also be cute and funny occasionally). Plus, my mother and her mother were definitely not maternal, so I never felt like I wanted to bring a child in to this world on the off chance some mysterious maternal glow would kick in.
My brother has three of his own, and is stepdad to another three, and loves it. I always joke he got my maternal genes. Frankly, I don't even really enjoy spending time with them either, and am always glad to get back to my tidy, quiet little flat. I have dated guys with kids - one had a teenager who barely spoke and did his own thing, the other had two younger boys he saw regularly but acknowledged to me he found it boring. Most of my friends have kids, one who has three loves it, but another - who tried for years to conceive - has said that while she adores her son it has been much more challenging for her than she ever thought it would be, and has impacted greatly on her life and relationship with her husband.
I never really had any negative reactions to being child free, most people were curious but they don't even ask now I'm a bit older. I think I'm essentially pretty selfish, and that's why I am on the path to FIRE - it enables me to do what the fuck I want, when I want. I enjoy sleeping, and reading, and Yoga, and travelling on my own and with friends. I like spending money on books or eating out sometimes or saving it all. I have some regrets but not having kids is definitely not one of them.
-
I've said it on other posts on this perennially popular MMM forum topic, but I strongly believe, contrary to many comments here, ambivalence or uncertainty about having a child is not an indicator of how much you will like being a parent or how good you will be at it. In fact, I think those with a lot of uncertainty sometimes like it more than others because prior to kids they probably were hyper-aware of all the downsides of parenting and less aware of all the upsides. If you are 100% certain you would hate being a parent, that is different, but my observations and personal experience tell me that you can be deeply unsure going in to it and yet find it to be the best decision of your life. Since this is based on my experience and not data, I could be wrong, but I think it is an important counter-perspective to idea that "you should only have kids if you are 100% sure." I think most people who choose to become parents are not 100% sure going in to the decision, and only a tiny portion report anything like regret.
Someone in another post shared actual data about regret with having/not having a child that was really interesting, but I can't find it (and I haven't read all of this post so maybe it appears here too).
-
I feel a bit sad about the whole re-branding of not having kids as being "child free" or even calling people with kids breeders. It's like a single guy calling himself wife free and going on about how happy he is not to have to put up with a woman in his life. Especially if he never had a serious relationship. Or like someone who proudly decides to close the family business that has been running for generations because they want to use the money for having fun.
I am no one to judge their choice, but it feels like a waste. Especially if the people are very capable and smart and just don't want to impede their parties and holidays. Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
-
I've said it on other posts on this perennially popular MMM forum topic, but I strongly believe, contrary to many comments here, ambivalence or uncertainty about having a child is not an indicator of how much you will like being a parent or how good you will be at it.
I agree. Humans are terrible at predicting what they'll enjoy.
-
I feel a bit sad about the whole re-branding of not having kids as being "child free" or even calling people with kids breeders.
I view it primarily as how to differentiate between 'childless' people, who by implication did want kids and were unable to have any, and for whom it might be an extremely sensitive topic. One might approach the topic pretty differently with them, or they probably view themselves somewhat differently from, e.g., 'childfree' people like me, who never had any interest in having kids. If someone comes up with a better descriptor, I'm all ears.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized.
I'd caution against this at a young age. How you think about this at 25 can change drastically by the time you hit 35.
+1 to this. Things can change more than you'd imagine.
I was always absolutely dead set against having kids and very clear about it to my wife. She decided to marry me anyway as she didn't have strong feelings either way. 12 years later she let me know that with her clock ticking she had begun to really want kids and would I be up for it? With much trepidation I agreed and a while later we had a son. Roughly a year after that I suggested to her that we should have another one. If we hadn't waited so long to start we would probably have had a third too. What was really weird was that I even started to quite like other people's kids once I had some of my own.
-
I feel a bit sad about the whole re-branding of not having kids as being "child free" or even calling people with kids breeders.
I view it primarily as how to differentiate between 'childless' people, who by implication did want kids and were unable to have any, and for whom it might be an extremely sensitive topic. One might approach the topic pretty differently with them, or they probably view themselves somewhat differently from, e.g., 'childfree' people like me, who never had any interest in having kids. If someone comes up with a better descriptor, I'm all ears.
+1
I almost always tell people we don't have kids by choice so there is no awkward wondering if we couldn't or whatever. I'm very happy to discuss it with people and freely acknowledge that I know there are things I'm giving up by not being a parent. I personally don't like the term breeders and all the animosity that goes along with it.
-
Whereas I know exactly how my life would be without kids
I would argue that you don't know exactly how life would be without kids. If a person has kids at 25, you know how life is without kids in your early 20's, but certainly don't know what life can be like without kids at 30, 40, 50 and onwards.
-
My point was that he didn't apparently want the life and responsibility of being a parent, but would do it (at least get spouse pregnant and financially support her and kids) if she did the majority of the care giving and child raising and he can just go work and play.
I was just saying that sometimes s hit happens and he might find himself alone as both the financial provider AND only parent (or possibly caring for a sick spouse and/or sick kid(s) as well long term) and would he be OK with that. For those of us who grew up in one parent/divorced household its a fuck-ton of work for the single parent. Even if you get full time 24/7 care for the kids with a live-in nanny, I would imagine most kids will still need some parental care and love and time.
I agree that stuff happens, but using an example of a spousal death as a reason to avoid kids is off the mark. Not every calamity is kid centric, lots of stuff sucks regardless. You could have made the exact same arguments for remaining single; what if you get divorced? what if they get sick? what if they die and leave you wracked with grief? Is that easier for you than it is for me, I doubt it, I imagine your pain would be equally large.
Life insurance or long term diability insurance is readily available and can be the primary financial provider in the case of death or illness. If I die or become diagnosed with a terminal disease today, my spouse doesn't become the main provider for our family, the insurance company will be.
If you feel the OP needs to think about your questions, I agree with you. I have also thought through the answers in my situation and feel they are valid responses. How would you recommend dealing with each of those situations? I think you should go a step farther and answer your questions as well, how would you handle a sick spouse, are you prepared?
Attempting to illicit a fear response to avoid kids is heavy handed. You could do the same for making the case of remaining single, an equally valid way of living.
My husband did die when my biological kids were very young and I became the adoptive parent of my teenaged stepdaughter because her birth mother was unable/unwilling to provide even basic care for her. Basically every decision I've had to make in the past 10 years has been child-centric because, well just because. There's no handing them off for the weekend to the other parent because that's not an option. And I get it. It's the price of love and the price of having children and it's how it is.
My best friend is child free by choice. We completely accept each other. I temper somewhat things that are understandably boring to her like carpools and parent-teacher meetings. She slightly dials back on things like lounging in bed on Sunday mornings with her rugby player husband, but I did listen with interest (and ok a little envy) when they flew off to Cabo for a weekend to escape the rain. She and I love and respect each other, and issue of having kids/not having them is there, but in no way an obstacle to our friendship. We all don't have the same choices in life.
Thank you for the reply. As you point out, not everyone, such as your step-daughters bio-mom wants to be a parent. The Bio-mom (dad too?) made her choice to not be a parent after having kids, they will have to live with the choice. They will have a messed up relationship with your daughter forever, my guess, because of all the issues. However, I hope your daughter turns out fine because of your support and I bet she will. As you point out, you have first hand experience with both sides, taking in kids and giving up kids.
I'm not saying its an easy choice, quite the opposite. Its one of the toughest choice a person can make and should never be taken lightly. I would get a nanny in your situation because I don't think I could handle it alone, that's why there's life insurance, it's for people like me. I would be a wreck for a long time if my spouse died, I don't think I'd be a fit parent and I can admit it. There's nothing wrong with getting help or outsourcing care if its in the childs best interests. It was in your stepdaughters best interest to come to you, I bet she is much better off.
In your post I read both sides of the argument, keeping the kids and letting someone else do a better job. Life is messy, I read three choices by three different people (you, bio-mom, bio-dad).
-
Whereas I know exactly how my life would be without kids
I would argue that you don't know exactly how life would be without kids. If a person has kids at 25, you know how life is without kids in your early 20's, but certainly don't know what life can be like without kids at 30, 40, 50 and onwards.
Does a person who has kids in their late 30's know what life would be like without kids? :) I had an awesome life pre-kids. Traveled to dozens of countries, had fun hobbies, did what I wanted, when I wanted, had all kinds of disposable income... truly it was great. But I wanted kids, assuming I met the right partner. I did meet the right partner, we got married, and had kids when I was 38 and 40. Very different life now - quite consuming and kid-focused, yes - but no regrets. I have a good sense of what my life would be like without them, and I'm happy with the decisions we've made. These days I have a bit of BTDT feeling about my single lifestyle. Or maybe it's just that I'm too tired to imagine keeping up the pace and activities that I used to.
Anyway, I think it's great to choose a life without kids, it's great to choose a life with kids... pejoratives going in either direction don't make sense to me.
Having said that, life is weird and people's perspectives can change. We have friends where the husband always wanted kids and his wife definitely did not. She has a special needs sibling and worried she might be genetically predisposed to having a special needs child herself...and was not interested in the amount of work and sacrifice involved. Then, all of their vigilant birth control efforts failed and she got pregnant. I'm not privy to whether they discussed abortion but they kept that baby and he was born in January w/ no health issues. The wife is totally delighted and in love, and is now saying she wants 8 more kids -- as big a turnaround in perspective as I've ever seen. The husband is of course delighted as well, but man you can't predict or rely on someone having this kind of sea change. It so easily could have become a bad situation for one of the spouses - the husband never having kids if their BC had worked; or the wife resenting having the baby.
-
I decided to not have children. I was very happy with this decision. However, you may change your mind when you get older, and hopefully its not too late. It's funny, as I get older, particularly around the holidays, sometimes I wish I had kids and eventually grandkids to spend it with. I do think as you get older this becomes more of a concern, particularly after your own immediate family begins to die off. All that said, my fiance has a child, which has been nice.
I have a friend with grown children and no grandchildren, and they aren't likely to get grandchildren.
They've sort of "adopted" a grandchild. They've met people in this town and made good friends, and his wife (age: early 60s), is basically "grandma". Babysits, takes the kid to the park, etc.
-
Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
"They" are taking over the Earth and coming to our countries? That's it, I changed my mind, I'm popping out babies tout de suite with my (working, educated, immigrant PoC) husband so the kiddos can join the border patrol.
Oh you don't need to worry since "they" will all die by 20 due to massive poverty, disease, civil war, genocide and starvation so probably won't be taking all the jobs so "we" are safe. Oh but you should have kids anyways 'cause...something something...your life is wasted without kids....something something ...you won't be complete without them...something something...your selfish not to...something something...God says ya gotta...something something...
I loved this whole post.
-
Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
"They" are taking over the Earth and coming to our countries? That's it, I changed my mind, I'm popping out babies tout de suite with my (working, educated, immigrant PoC) husband so the kiddos can join the border patrol.
Oh you don't need to worry since "they" will all die by 20 due to massive poverty, disease, civil war, genocide and starvation so probably won't be taking all the jobs so "we" are safe. Oh but you should have kids anyways 'cause...something something...your life is wasted without kids....something something ...you won't be complete without them...something something...your selfish not to...something something...God says ya gotta...something something...
Hmm. I think you're projecting things here... What I meant was "They" have a huge population growth problem, but we have a decline problem. Japan, which is the worst, is projected to have a working to elderly ratio of 80% in 2060. So one worker for every 4 elderly.
...
+2. I also prefer the term childfree for all your reasons listed (and massively hate the term breeder as if choosing to parent is nothing more then inseminating a farm animal). I see childfree as no different then carfree or homefree or jobfree - they imply a voluntary aspect more so then using the word "less". I also now am gonna use the word marriage-free rather than single since technically I'm choosing to be single and not planning to marry again (although I'm fine with being in a relationship)
I agree that childless implies you weren't able to have them, so that's no good. But child-free doesn't really imply choice. It implies that you are free of a generally undesirable thing. Carfree or housefree or jobfree aren't words because cars houses and jobs are generally desirable. Stress-free, debt-free, fat-free, etc are words because those things are negative.
Maybe it's better to define yourself by things that you are, instead of by negatives. Like retired instead of job-free. Or walker/biker instead of car-free. Maybe that's also a better way to frame the question. Not, do you want children or not, but what DO you want to do with your life?
-
Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
"They" are taking over the Earth and coming to our countries? That's it, I changed my mind, I'm popping out babies tout de suite with my (working, educated, immigrant PoC) husband so the kiddos can join the border patrol.
Oh you don't need to worry since "they" will all die by 20 due to massive poverty, disease, civil war, genocide and starvation so probably won't be taking all the jobs so "we" are safe. Oh but you should have kids anyways 'cause...something something...your life is wasted without kids....something something ...you won't be complete without them...something something...your selfish not to...something something...God says ya gotta...something something...
Yay, you’re about to hit the parenting-guilt bingo! I’ll add a couple of my personal favorites to push us over the top:
“but you OWE your parents grandchildren! You don’t have siblings who will do it!” (In which case, mom and dad should have had more kids; since they only wanted one, they understand me)
“but aren’t you bored/lonely?!” (from people who need to be entertained by others, cable TV, expensive live sports, and boozy mom parties all the time lest they start whining about boredom on social media)
“you’re a married woman. You shouldn’t be working! The church teaches that your only job now is to have babies and care for your home” (I was working on my PhD at the time. I didn’t stay in that church for much longer.)
-
When I was a child I was mommy to many dolls and loved to dress them up and play with them. Got married at age 19, almost 20, and we never wanted kids at that time. We were having the time of our lives. We both had average, non professional jobs but we saved and built a house when we were 22 and 23 years old. Money was always tight and we still never thought about children. Our best friends that got married two weeks after we did also didn't have children for 10 years. They ended up with a boy and a girl. I never felt the draw of mother hood even though these were close friends. Then in my early 30's we decided maybe we should have a kid and tried for a while and it didn't happen so we found out there was sterility problems. We just didn't pursue it. We thought of adoption but just didn't even do any research. I don't think either of us were that crazy about the idea of having kids. The Hub had been brought up in a hectic household with two sisters and a brother. It was a total looney bin. I was an only child so was used to a quiet household. I was very close to my Mom and we were like best friends. She passed away in 2013. I sometimes think that it would have been nice to have that kind of relationship with a daughter. But, no one can predict if you will have a child who would be very close to you. You can't predict where the kid will end up. You can't predict even if they live in the same town or they will have time for you. We have enjoyed a selfish life of vacations, new cars, buying whatever we wanted. We have saved and are comfortable in retirement. We have had dogs throughout our marriage and they are our furry kids. I never felt the hormones screaming that I needed to have a kid. I will turn 65 in a few months. The one thing that I do regret is that my Hub would have been a wonderful parent because he is so kind and caring. When I used to work there were women with children and they were always comparing notes on diapers, potty training, day care, soccer and kid oriented conversations. It was so boring to me and I couldn't relate to it at all. I was much more comfortable talking to the guys because they would talk about the news, trips, life. To the OP, if you are not a candidate to be a father I would recommend you find a woman with like thinking. Don't marry someone who wants kids and deny her. Also, don't have kids to please a woman if you don't want them. You would probably be a terrible father and regret having the kid later on.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized.
I'd caution against this at a young age. How you think about this at 25 can change drastically by the time you hit 35.
+1 to this. Things can change more than you'd imagine.
I was always absolutely dead set against having kids and very clear about it to my wife. She decided to marry me anyway as she didn't have strong feelings either way. 12 years later she let me know that with her clock ticking she had begun to really want kids and would I be up for it? With much trepidation I agreed and a while later we had a son. Roughly a year after that I suggested to her that we should have another one. If we hadn't waited so long to start we would probably have had a third too. What was really weird was that I even started to quite like other people's kids once I had some of my own.
Yes, but...if you'd had a vasectomy the issue wouldn't have come up and you'd have been fine without kids. If you wife knew that it wasn't possible she would have been wistful but it would have passed. Maybe you chose not to have a vasectomy because it really wasn't a settled issue for you.
-
Yes, but...if you'd had a vasectomy the issue wouldn't have come up and you'd have been fine without kids.
Maybe or maybe not. Once I hit late 30s I had some regrets. Wife had a tubal ligation unfortunately (at 32), and we both regret that choice. I strongly caution others against the choice we made until they are older. There is a very good reason doctors are hesitant about this. Just some thoughts from someone who did have regrets. We are now considering reversing the tubal ligation. VERY expensive and odds of success aren't fantastic.
-
But child-free doesn't really imply choice. It implies that you are free of a generally undesirable thing. Carfree or housefree or jobfree aren't words because cars houses and jobs are generally desirable. Stress-free, debt-free, fat-free, etc are words because those things are negative.
Car-free is most definitely a word used by people who consciously choose not to own a car--typically for environmental reasons--and make a point of using cycling, walking, and public transit to get around. Debt-free is not necessarily positive to someone who uses debt as a tool for investment (real-estate investors, for example). These terms are not universally seen as positive or negative.
Child-free means you are free of something *you* don't desire. It does not mean children are inherently a negative thing; they are simply something *you* prefer to be without. Childfree refers specifically to those who don't have kids and are happy about it. It doesn't apply to people who are childless not by choice, nor to people who haven't decided whether to have kids, or haven't had them yet, or whose kids have grown up and moved out.
Choosing not to have children is also not wasteful, selfish, immature, un-serious, or equivalent to squandering one's inheritance, thank you very much.
-
@TheGrimSqueaker: Wow, what an incredible story! I am so sorry for what you have been through. I am in awe of all you have dealt with. Beyond that, words utterly fail me...
So agree. What a terrible situation that came out of what was a selfless noble act. I've been following @TheGrimSqueaker awesome posts for a long time and knew there was difficulty but seeing it in total is so sad. Although I think she has given her daughter something of great value - a safe and stable home life and unconditional love while growing up - which may have molded her for the better in ways yet unseen then she would have gotten in a institutional setting. Glad the VSB isn't quite as much of a hand full.
Thanks for the kind words, both of you.
Becoming a parent can lead to disaster the natural way too. Very few families plan for a child who needs care for life because he or she develops symptoms of autism, muscular dystrophy, or cancer. Nor does anyone ever seem to think *their* child will be the one who gets severe brain damage after being underwater in a swimming pool or is hit by a drunk driver or stray bullet and paralyzed for life. Or who takes the "Tide pod challenge" and suffers permanent medical damage.
In most families teens gradually become more self-sufficient, and there's usually an expectation that less control and supervision is needed (but more information and supportive feedback). Eating disorders, addictions, and mental illnesses put a monkey wrench in that expectation. It turns parenting into an extreme lifetime commitment that drives out any other possibility of a career, a social life, a family life, or even basic order in the home.
-
Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
"They" are taking over the Earth and coming to our countries? That's it, I changed my mind, I'm popping out babies tout de suite with my (working, educated, immigrant PoC) husband so the kiddos can join the border patrol.
Oh you don't need to worry since "they" will all die by 20 due to massive poverty, disease, civil war, genocide and starvation so probably won't be taking all the jobs so "we" are safe. Oh but you should have kids anyways 'cause...something something...your life is wasted without kids....something something ...you won't be complete without them...something something...your selfish not to...something something...God says ya gotta...something something...
Hmm. I think you're projecting things here... What I meant was "They" have a huge population growth problem, but we have a decline problem. Japan, which is the worst, is projected to have a working to elderly ratio of 80% in 2060. So one worker for every 4 elderly.
...
+2. I also prefer the term childfree for all your reasons listed (and massively hate the term breeder as if choosing to parent is nothing more then inseminating a farm animal). I see childfree as no different then carfree or homefree or jobfree - they imply a voluntary aspect more so then using the word "less". I also now am gonna use the word marriage-free rather than single since technically I'm choosing to be single and not planning to marry again (although I'm fine with being in a relationship)
I agree that childless implies you weren't able to have them, so that's no good. But child-free doesn't really imply choice. It implies that you are free of a generally undesirable thing. Carfree or housefree or jobfree aren't words because cars houses and jobs are generally desirable. Stress-free, debt-free, fat-free, etc are words because those things are negative.
Maybe it's better to define yourself by things that you are, instead of by negatives. Like retired instead of job-free. Or walker/biker instead of car-free. Maybe that's also a better way to frame the question. Not, do you want children or not, but what DO you want to do with your life?
Well I was sort of being a bit ridiculous but I do think for many people the word "free" rather then "less" puts a different spin on things. If I were to say I'm a homeless, jobless, carless person it may sound as if I'm in dire need or a penniless bum. Personally IRL I don't use free or less. I just say I chose not to have kids - or a car or a spouse or a job or a home and explain why. Online its just easier to use the word free as to me it conjures up a positive emotion based on a voluntary choice rather than a negative.
Exactly. I don't go around defining myself (outside of internet discussions like this) as 'childfree' b/c my concept of myself doesn't have anything to do with kids at all. If you don't do, and are never interested in taking up, e.g., carpentry, you probably don't think of yourself in relation to carpentry at all, unless it comes up in conversation with someone who wants to talk about carpentry. I don't define myself as a 'non-carpenter' in my head or to anyone else, unless possibly if I were to encounter someone who loved carpentry and asked me if I did.
Similarly with being childfree. I never bring it up to people. Why would I when kids don't interest me in relation to my own identity, either in the having or the lacking? New people I meet, of course, will often ask if I have kids, and I always just say, "no, we never had any interest in having any." That pretty much covers it. It doesn't really require using a term to define myself.
-
TheGrimSqueaker, may I ask how did you come to adopt your daughter? Did you know she had issues before adoption?
Your daughter may have been abused or had a birth mother who was a drug addict.
You definitely went thru hell and you made the right decision to not let her back in the house.
I have never been thru anything like you described and so sad how it all worked out.
Best wishes to you!
-
Yes, but...if you'd had a vasectomy the issue wouldn't have come up and you'd have been fine without kids.
Maybe or maybe not. Once I hit late 30s I had some regrets. Wife had a tubal ligation unfortunately (at 32), and we both regret that choice. I strongly caution others against the choice we made until they are older. There is a very good reason doctors are hesitant about this. Just some thoughts from someone who did have regrets. We are now considering reversing the tubal ligation. VERY expensive and odds of success aren't fantastic.
I'm sorry to hear this. It sounds like a very difficult situation. Best of luck to you.
-
Birth rates of educated people are well bellow the replacement rate. The main reason the world is getting too full is people in Africa are having 6 kids on average. From 2030 onward population in Europe and Japan is set to start declining apart from immigration and the working population is already shrinking.
"They" are taking over the Earth and coming to our countries? That's it, I changed my mind, I'm popping out babies tout de suite with my (working, educated, immigrant PoC) husband so the kiddos can join the border patrol.
Oh you don't need to worry since "they" will all die by 20 due to massive poverty, disease, civil war, genocide and starvation so probably won't be taking all the jobs so "we" are safe. Oh but you should have kids anyways 'cause...something something...your life is wasted without kids....something something ...you won't be complete without them...something something...your selfish not to...something something...God says ya gotta...something something...
Hmm. I think you're projecting things here... What I meant was "They" have a huge population growth problem, but we have a decline problem. Japan, which is the worst, is projected to have a working to elderly ratio of 80% in 2060. So one worker for every 4 elderly.
...
+2. I also prefer the term childfree for all your reasons listed (and massively hate the term breeder as if choosing to parent is nothing more then inseminating a farm animal). I see childfree as no different then carfree or homefree or jobfree - they imply a voluntary aspect more so then using the word "less". I also now am gonna use the word marriage-free rather than single since technically I'm choosing to be single and not planning to marry again (although I'm fine with being in a relationship)
I agree that childless implies you weren't able to have them, so that's no good. But child-free doesn't really imply choice. It implies that you are free of a generally undesirable thing. Carfree or housefree or jobfree aren't words because cars houses and jobs are generally desirable. Stress-free, debt-free, fat-free, etc are words because those things are negative.
Maybe it's better to define yourself by things that you are, instead of by negatives. Like retired instead of job-free. Or walker/biker instead of car-free. Maybe that's also a better way to frame the question. Not, do you want children or not, but what DO you want to do with your life?
Well I was sort of being a bit ridiculous but I do think for many people the word "free" rather then "less" puts a different spin on things. If I were to say I'm a homeless, jobless, carless person it may sound as if I'm in dire need or a penniless bum. Personally IRL I don't use free or less. I just say I chose not to have kids - or a car or a spouse or a job or a home and explain why. Online its just easier to use the word free as to me it conjures up a positive emotion based on a voluntary choice rather than a negative.
Exactly. I don't go around defining myself (outside of internet discussions like this) as 'childfree' b/c my concept of myself doesn't have anything to do with kids at all. If you don't do, and are never interested in taking up, e.g., carpentry, you probably don't think of yourself in relation to carpentry at all, unless it comes up in conversation with someone who wants to talk about carpentry. I don't define myself as a 'non-carpenter' in my head or to anyone else, unless possibly if I were to encounter someone who loved carpentry and asked me if I did.
Similarly with being childfree. I never bring it up to people. Why would I when kids don't interest me in relation to my own identity, either in the having or the lacking? New people I meet, of course, will often ask if I have kids, and I always just say, "no, we never had any interest in having any." That pretty much covers it. It doesn't really require using a term to define myself.
Same for me. I don't say I'm child free IRL. When people ask if we have kids I just say no, that it never felt right for us. Usually that will lead to additional conversation about it but I've never had a bad experience with people saying I'm going to regret it or I'm selfish or anything like that. (Which BTW, I don't think I am selfish. For me personally, I live a life pretty similar to what I would live if I did have kids). I think the only time it ever really feels awkward is in group settings with lots of women that don't know each other well. (Like attending work related events with my husband). Almost immediately conversation is centered around kids. Meh to that! :-)
-
Yes, but...if you'd had a vasectomy the issue wouldn't have come up and you'd have been fine without kids.
Maybe or maybe not. Once I hit late 30s I had some regrets. Wife had a tubal ligation unfortunately (at 32), and we both regret that choice. I strongly caution others against the choice we made until they are older. There is a very good reason doctors are hesitant about this. Just some thoughts from someone who did have regrets. We are now considering reversing the tubal ligation. VERY expensive and odds of success aren't fantastic.
I'm sorry to hear this. It sounds like a very difficult situation. Best of luck to you.
Well it could be worse, at least we don't have to work anymore and can afford the procedure.
-
TheGrimSqueaker, may I ask how did you come to adopt your daughter? Did you know she had issues before adoption?
Your daughter may have been abused or had a birth mother who was a drug addict.
You definitely went thru hell and you made the right decision to not let her back in the house.
I have never been thru anything like you described and so sad how it all worked out.
Best wishes to you!
She had a file a mile long that provided details of every aspect of her early life and family situation. I won't discuss what was in the file here; it's not my story to tell. However, it grossly understated her actual behavior. I got details of it from previous foster parents and from her bio-family. Still, the behavior they described did not come close to the acting-out this last year.
The thing that threw me was that for the previous year and a half prior to her arriving at my place, and the first year or so that she was with me, her behavior was stable. A bunch of shrinks swore up and down that the initial diagnoses were mistaken and that her behavioral improvements (having lasted for years) were evidence of permanent improvement. She even did things that were consistent with wanting to belong to my family, community, and household. What issues we had adjusting to each other (and there were some) were benign enough that I figured I could run out the clock. But no sooner was the ink dry on the adoption order than her personality shifted and her behaviors started to slowly deteriorate, becoming gradually more difficult to deal with due chiefly to significant enabling by her bio-family, a school counselor, and even a former foster parent (all of whom had initially supported the adoption, and some of whom should have known better).
-
Dh was enraged he was not allowed to get a vasectomy at age 19/20. He was thrilled to have (planned) children in his 30's. We have 2, he wanted more, but I wanted to stop at 2. I would recommend everyone hold off on getting sterilized under age 30ish.
Also, we have the kid that people don't want to have if we are being very honest. He has multiple disabilities including High Functioning Autism and Cancer, but a high IQ. He takes an enormous amounts of parenting resources and I have basically no career because of it.
I cringe a little inside when I hear people say they don't want kids b/c they don't want to risk having a kid like mine. I realize it is a lot to ask of anyone and the toll it has taken is no joke. But despite it all he is one of the best things that has ever happened to me and specifically due to his circumstances, he is so warm and loving towards me. He knows how precious life is in a way most teens don't, he is so grateful for me, he knows first hand how petty somethings other teens do are. We argue sometimes, but I can't imagine a day I'll ever hear a "I hate you" from him or him never calling me in his 20's, etc. Disabled kids, even the severely disabled and critically ill ones are not all bad.
-
I'm not really "older", but at 31, I have at least two decades worth of not wanting kids under my belt, including ten years of being sterilized. Zero regrets - it was one of the best things I've ever done. We absolutely love our lives, which involve tons of international travel, doing whatever we want, and saving buckets of money for early retirement.
It's interesting you ask about the decision-making process, OP. There was precisely zero for me. It was the most obvious thing in the world, like my eye colour or height. There has never for a second been any other possibility.
As far as dating, it was much easier to weed out not-childfree people after my sterilization surgery (at 21). Before you have that done, people lie and pretend they don't want kids, hoping you'll change your mind. When there's nothing in there but ashes and scar tissue, not so much. So I definitely recommend getting sliced and diced ASAP (if you know for sure it's what you want, blah blah) and letting dates know early on.
-
Same for me. I don't say I'm child free IRL. When people ask if we have kids I just say no, that it never felt right for us. Usually that will lead to additional conversation about it but I've never had a bad experience with people saying I'm going to regret it or I'm selfish or anything like that. (Which BTW, I don't think I am selfish. For me personally, I live a life pretty similar to what I would live if I did have kids). I think the only time it ever really feels awkward is in group settings with lots of women that don't know each other well. (Like attending work related events with my husband). Almost immediately conversation is centered around kids. Meh to that! :-)
Indeed, meh to that.
I was once in a train sitting beside a person from my village who I am not very acquainted to. She asked me whether I had children. I said no and explained that it was by choice. I thought I'd be polite and ask her the same question in return, as she started the subject. She had no children and said they couldn't get them. That situation was a bit painful. It could have been so avoided if people wouldn't have had the habit of asking about children, out of the blue.
-
There seems to be a lot of pressure on women to procreate, and a whole lot of "you will change your mind later" that doesn't seem to be directed to men to anywhere near the same extent (yay sexism!).
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Do you have any evidence that women primarily use physical attractiveness to reproduce? Or find mates? Last time I checked, that wasn't the case.
Men also have issues as they get older. High quality sperm production drops off:
https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19520630/age-and-risks-of-fathering-a-child/ (https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19520630/age-and-risks-of-fathering-a-child/)
"As a result, your body starts to churn out more defective sperm, which contain DNA mutations that could harm your babies-to-be."
Toque.
-
I would suggest that any one who knows they don't want kids to get sterilized.
Most breeders should be be sterilized also. Many of the rejects are the ones having kids, putting the burden on the rest of society. Just look around. I'm not referring to anyone reading this forum of course.
As always, there's an XKCD for that: https://xkcd.com/603/ (https://xkcd.com/603/)
Toque.
-
I wonder if there have ever been studies on older men 60-75 who father children late in life and the health of the kid down the road. Like is longevity an issue for the children of men with old sperm? Or is sperm just sperm no matter how old the man is?
My grandfather lived to be 110 years old and I always wondered if they took blood samples and bone marrow from him and did studies, would they have found what his fountain of youth was? He never had dementia and had a full head of hair.
-
I'm an Older Childless Mustachian and don't regret it. Glad I don't have to deal with the complications involved with it.
-
This is interesting to read. I'm 26 and am in no hurry to have children, but something tells me I want one or two with the right person. I'm not sure I could live with myself later in life not having created all those unique memories and experiences as a father. Part of what's telling me I should experience being a father is the fact that my dad did an incredible job raising 3 children.. and he still to this day doesn't know who his biological father was. Early on, my mom and dad were extremely strapped for cash and still managed to own a home and provide us with everything we needed, even in periods where my dad was between jobs for a couple different reasons.
If he could do it under those circumstances, I have no doubts about my ability to be a father. BUT, I want to make sure I'm secure financially and I need to be sure I'm creating life with the right person, and I'm optimistic that will happen.
-
I have a 3 year old daughter and a 3 month old son. My wife was the driving force behind having children. I was really ambivalent about it. Now that it's a reality, it has been hard to assume so much responsibility and the loss of freedom that comes with it, but I kind of think of it like the path to FI I'm on: just punting all the leisurely, fun things I want to do until later down the road.
I was pretty wishy washy about most things before having a kid. Having my daughter pushed me to finding MMM and taking my career seriously. I dreamed of being able to take her out of school and to the movies on a whim when she's 10 years old. So she was a catalyst to me getting my shit together. Sometimes I think I wasn't made to be so responsible for others, but I'm also positive I would be worse off without that responsibility.
That's my experience so far, but I never had that thought that I never wanted kids.
-
I find that most people who don't have kids won't regret it because they have nothing to compare it to. And for those that do regret it, you will have a hard time getting them to admit it as much as if it were a blind poll / survey.
I'm not sure you will get the answers you are looking for in this thread...
-
Google 'scary mommy confessions' for a few 1000 pages of parental regret.
There are some here and there that say "I regret having kids", but by and large that is people venting about or admitting things they can't/don't want to IRL.
I have made confessions on that site and I certainly do not regret having kids.
-
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/if-you-had-to-do-it-all-over-again-would-you-have-children.116488/
-
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/if-you-had-to-do-it-all-over-again-would-you-have-children.116488/
Great link. I had forgotten about that Ann Landers story.
I have talked to a number of women IRL who said that they would not do it again, and who were, by my assessment and that of their grown children, great moms. My own mother shared that she was glad I had decided not to have children, as that was her wish for me and my sister. (she has always been great with kids, and even now provides support for one of my cousins with a little one. She just felt it would be better for us not to have)
-
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/if-you-had-to-do-it-all-over-again-would-you-have-children.116488/
Great link. I had forgotten about that Ann Landers story.
I have talked to a number of women IRL who said that they would not do it again, and who were, by my assessment and that of their grown children, great moms. My own mother shared that she was glad I had decided not to have children, as that was her wish for me and my sister. (she has always been great with kids, and even now provides support for one of my cousins with a little one. She just felt it would be better for us not to have)
Just because a person is in a situation they didn't choose, didn't want, would not choose again if they had the option, or hate outright doesn't mean they won't do their duty and find a few bright spots in the process. Also, let's not forget the power of hedonic adaptation. People can get used to gigantic life changes even if they are unwanted or unpleasant.
-
I would guess that the number of people who regret having children is quite low, especially for people in stereotypical MMM financial situations. I'm too lazy to research this—perhaps someone else is more interested.
There is a Facebook Group Started for those that do regret it. We have many friends that do not have kids and we see that there is satisfaction in life either way...knowing who you are is key.
Facebook group “I Regret Having Children,” which has over 7,000 followers and was created only last fall.
-
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Oh look, an MRA. I am curious. Do you currently have a "mate" that was selected by you, based on looks, out of a pool of willing applicants? No? Huh.
-
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
-
MrThatsDifferent, have you considered adoption of a baby? You seem to have so much love to give and there are so many children who end up in the system. I have no idea on adoption and have heard it is a long process. Maybe others here can offer some ideas.
-
Older female. No kids. No regrets. As a matter of fact I sometimes get giddily happy about my childfree choice and thank the powers that be that I chose to be childless.
Hello my doppelganger! Not only the same facts, but I would have typed those exact same words. The feeling of joy I have at being childfree is sometimes so enormous, when I take a mindful moment to appreciate my situation, that I feel like it is, at least, ONE good decision I have made in my life. I definitely did that RIGHT, if nothing else. And my gosh, that feels so good to appreciate and take a moment of gratitude for.
I have these moments too...I'm very fortunate and grateful.
-
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
I'm so sorry for you :( This is my biggest fear. So far I haven't responded to this thread, only read it, because while I'm childless, I'm still young so it might happen, but for medical reasons motherhood isn't a given for me. If motherhood doesn't happen, I just hope I'll be able to handle that.
You're going to get a lot of replies saying you should adopt or foster, but while those things can be great options for some people, it's not the same. There are ethical concerns about intercultural adoption and I don't think fostering is an alternative to parenthood at all. Fostering is something that we would be interested in in the future, but it's a job, not a road to parenthood. That's why you get paid to do it. It's generally temporary and the big decisions are made by social services, not you. The job ends when the child turns 18 and many foster children do not keep in touch with their foster parents. That doesn't mean fostering isn't important, and if you're the nurturing type, it might be very fulfulling, it's just not like being a parent at all.
-
Women have a much shorter fertility window than men, and their physical attractiveness—their primary way of attaining mates—also declines much faster (but not necessarily in a linear fashion). If anything is sexist it's biology. If you wait too long, you may find your choices are involuntarily foreclosed. I don't think politically correct pablum helps anyone in these situations.
Oh look, an MRA. I am curious. Do you currently have a "mate" that was selected by you, based on looks, out of a pool of willing applicants? No? Huh.
On another thread he just implied that most government employees were 'dowdy slobs'. At least he's not trying to hide his sexism.
-
My suggestion is to get a dog. Much better.
-
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
I'm so sorry for you :( This is my biggest fear. So far I haven't responded to this thread, only read it, because while I'm childless, I'm still young so it might happen, but for medical reasons motherhood isn't a given for me. If motherhood doesn't happen, I just hope I'll be able to handle that.
You're going to get a lot of replies saying you should adopt or foster, but while those things can be great options for some people, it's not the same. There are ethical concerns about intercultural adoption and I don't think fostering is an alternative to parenthood at all. Fostering is something that we would be interested in in the future, but it's a job, not a road to parenthood. That's why you get paid to do it. It's generally temporary and the big decisions are made by social services, not you. The job ends when the child turns 18 and many foster children do not keep in touch with their foster parents. That doesn't mean fostering isn't important, and if you're the nurturing type, it might be very fulfulling, it's just not like being a parent at all.
No, it’s not the same, and I never said it was the same, I said that there are many options for parenting in life and if it’s what you really want, you can choose to do one of them instead of just being really unhappy about not being a parent. I mean, when your options are to be dissatisfied with life or try and do something meaningful to fill the void...well...
Someone may have had dreams of having a perfect little kid who they can raise to be an awesome adult, but the truth is that having your own biological child doesn’t guarantee that fantasy coming true and may not be the same as what they wanted either. Plenty of bio-parents end up in realities that they never signed up for and certainly never fantasized about when they dreamed of the perfect little babies that they wanted to have, but they adapt and love and parent and thrive.
My point stands though that there are a ton of kids out there who need love and a lot of different ways to parent and love them.
Personally, for ME, fostering would be an ideal way to engage in parenting because I would prefer to parent only teenagers, especially those who have had it rough and whom no one is lining up to help.
I read an amazing article about a man who fosters terminally ill kids and provides them a really loving home in their end of life. I could see myself doing something like that too.
Just because something didn’t work out ideally in life doesn’t mean you can’t adapt and fill life with meaning, love and joy in other ways... I mean, what’s the alternative??
My hesitation in responding to this thread was knowing I was going to get a whole lot of, why don’t you just...? As if we haven’t explored all the possibilities and ruled them out for various reasons, which I won’t go into because I have no desire to debate something so personal.
I’ll work out whatever I need to do to deal with it. I responded to answer the question, what do you regret? That’s all.
-
Mid-40s, female, marriage-free and child-free.
I do like most kids (not the bratty ones, but I don't think that's the kid's fault), and I adore my nieces and nephews. And I will say that despite not wanting children of my own, that I am very "maternal" and I know I would have been a great mom. But I didn't feel like I needed to create another human to express that - I am maternal to my nieces and nephews, to my friends, to my employees, and to my foster dogs and adopted dog.
I couldn't be happier about about my situation and feel super lucky to have known from a young age that I didn't want kids. Absolutely no regrets. Especially when my SIL makes snotty comments like, "Oh, must be nice to be able to go on ANOTHER vacation this year!" or "Must be nice to go out to dinner and sleep in." or "Must be nice to only work 5 hours a week." And I can respond, "Yes. Yes it is!" :) OK, I don't actually respond that way, because I don't need to rub it in to someone who is miserable and stressed out 90% of the time ;).
-
We’re mid40s, no kids and I hate it. Never thought I wouldn’t be a dad. It tears at me and breaks my heart, daily. I’m jealous of every father and child. Every one. I irrationally hate absent or neglectful or cruel fathers. Yes, there is the singular consolation that are lives are easier and wealthier because of no kids. But I’d happy change everything to be a dad. So I regret, not falling in love younger and not trying for a family before it became too late.
I'm so sorry for you :( This is my biggest fear. So far I haven't responded to this thread, only read it, because while I'm childless, I'm still young so it might happen, but for medical reasons motherhood isn't a given for me. If motherhood doesn't happen, I just hope I'll be able to handle that.
You're going to get a lot of replies saying you should adopt or foster, but while those things can be great options for some people, it's not the same. There are ethical concerns about intercultural adoption and I don't think fostering is an alternative to parenthood at all. Fostering is something that we would be interested in in the future, but it's a job, not a road to parenthood. That's why you get paid to do it. It's generally temporary and the big decisions are made by social services, not you. The job ends when the child turns 18 and many foster children do not keep in touch with their foster parents. That doesn't mean fostering isn't important, and if you're the nurturing type, it might be very fulfulling, it's just not like being a parent at all.
No, it’s not the same, and I never said it was the same, I said that there are many options for parenting in life and if it’s what you really want, you can choose to do one of them instead of just being really unhappy about not being a parent. I mean, when your options are to be dissatisfied with life or try and do something meaningful to fill the void...well...
Someone may have had dreams of having a perfect little kid who they can raise to be an awesome adult, but the truth is that having your own biological child doesn’t guarantee that fantasy coming true and may not be the same as what they wanted either. Plenty of bio-parents end up in realities that they never signed up for and certainly never fantasized about when they dreamed of the perfect little babies that they wanted to have, but they adapt and love and parent and thrive.
My point stands though that there are a ton of kids out there who need love and a lot of different ways to parent and love them.
Personally, for ME, fostering would be an ideal way to engage in parenting because I would prefer to parent only teenagers, especially those who have had it rough and whom no one is lining up to help.
I read an amazing article about a man who fosters terminally ill kids and provides them a really loving home in their end of life. I could see myself doing something like that too.
Just because something didn’t work out ideally in life doesn’t mean you can’t adapt and fill life with meaning, love and joy in other ways... I mean, what’s the alternative??
My hesitation in responding to this thread was knowing I was going to get a whole lot of, why don’t you just...? As if we haven’t explored all the possibilities and ruled them out for various reasons, which I won’t go into because I have no desire to debate something so personal.
I’ll work out whatever I need to do to deal with it. I responded to answer the question, what do you regret? That’s all.
@MrThatsDifferent - thanks for contributing your experience to the thread, despite that bringing out the unsolicited advice. I hope it's helpful to the OP to see that either road taken can lead to regret.
-
Only 31 here, so no decades of experience to draw on. One of the best things about being in my 30's is that people are starting to believe me when I say I don't want children.
My mom called me a "selfish bitch" once when I mentioned I don't plan on having children, but even she seems to be coming to terms with it now. Unlike most childfree people who like kids but don't want any of their own, I actively dislike most kids most of the time. I'll even admit it on the internet.
So far my only real regret is losing friends when they have babies. They seldom have time, and when they do, they don't want to do any activity that doesn't involve children. I'll suck it up and do it just to see them, but sometimes I'd honestly prefer a trip to the dentist. It also sucks to give up relationships or potential relationships over the issue of children, but I imagine we're both happier in the long run for it so I can't really regret it.
-
Late 40's. Husband I and I tried in our late 30's....I was on board but a bit ambivalent. We made it halfway through the pregnancy but had some genetic difficulties. We tried for the next few years but it didn't work out. Do I regret anything? Not really. It was tough. I was sad for awhile but we have a good solid relationship, common dreams and goals unrelated to children and we had those from the start. Kids would have been great but it wasn't what we thought would define us. I'm super happy with our life and we have nieces and nephews to watch and cheer for.
-
We met when we were in our mid-late 40's. It's my first marriage but my wife's second (no children from her first) and neither of us wanted kids at all. Neither of us have any great parental instincts or any regrets either. Hearing people banging on about their kids shits me to tears and I just don't get why most couples seem to think that having kids is part of the marriage licence.
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
-
Only 31 here, so no decades of experience to draw on. One of the best things about being in my 30's is that people are starting to believe me when I say I don't want children.
Haha, this has been my experience as well. I'm turning 31 next month and people are finally starting to believe us.....
Now a lot of our friends are younger, or older empty nesters!
-
31 is still quite young (I know it might not feel that way). You'll be surprised on things you'll change your mind on down the road. Always keep an open mind. Aging tends to change what you value (not that I'm that old myself, but my perspective on things has changed drastically since 30 -- I know that it will continue to change).
-
31 is still quite young (I know it might not feel that way). You'll be surprised on things you'll change your mind on down the road. Always keep an open mind. Aging tends to change what you value (not that I'm that old myself, but my perspective on things has changed drastically since 30 -- I know that it will continue to change).
31 is still plenty mature too. And some people are more mature at 12 than others at 40. At 50 I still believe in a lot of things I believed in at 31. Including that children aren’t for me. Some beliefs will be due to legitimate changes in perspective and accumulated wisdom. Others can be due to inattentive selfishness (beware the poor man who becomes rich). Plenty relate more to middle age depression and can be adjusted by exercise, diet, and medication. I know people with over strident (left and right) political views with that last problem.
-
Certainly I'm not trying to imply that one will definitely have a change of mind. I'm just cautioning that it might happen, as it does with many people very frequently. This is something that happened in my case. I wish I could have cautioned my 30 year old self. Anecdotal examples are probably not that useful as advice.
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
-
45 year old male here. Not sure if 45 is considered older or not. I have known since age 18 that having children was not for me. I've never wavered in that feeling. No regrets. I feel happy that I'm not adding to the world overpopulation problem. I want to give all of my love to my partner, when I find her. :)
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
Me too.
Last year I got the “no offence, but in my experience, single, childless professional women are selfish” from an acquaintance. Needless to say, said acquaintance is no longer being acquainted by me.
My new favourite response to this type of comment is to shrug and say, “we get/have to be since no one else is thinking of us”. Single, middle aged women pretty much take the award for the most invisible people out there.
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
I've always considered it the opposite. People are having kids for their own selfish reasons.
My feelings about having kids hasn't changed over the last 30 years.
Pizzasteve, your post disappeared, but it sounds like you made the right decision despite the gene mix curiosity.
-
I didn't play with dolls as a kid, didn't like many other kids as a kid (always preferred the company of adults...or books), and for a long time thought I would never want kids. That finally started to change around age 30, but it took me another year or two to really want to try to have one instead of just being... interested in the idea. My soon to be spouse is older and already has three (almost adult) children, but when we were first dating I made sure he was open to the idea of having more kids in case I changed my mind. He always says "I love kids, it's adults I have problems with." Good thing, because he got his vasectomy reversed this year --- ouch. And it looks like we might still have to go the IVF route, so it's essential that we are both very much on the same page. That being said, am I 100% certain this is the right choice? Of course not, but I'm a questioner and never really 100% about anything, it's just my nature, and I've been around enough kids that I understand there are obvious downsides. But I'm at the point where I would regret not trying more than the alternative.
All that said I completely understand NOT wanting to have kids and would never begrudge anyone's choice. If IVF doesn't end in success I'm confident we'll have a very fulfilling life without kids of our own. And I think having kids is much more selfish than not (unless you're adopting). Good luck with your decision OP!
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
p
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
I've gotten flamed in the past in this sort of discussion, but you asked, so I will answer once again. If you give primarily selfish sounding reasoning for something (focusing all or mostly upon me, myself and I--aka my freedom, my money, my sleep), then people will think your reasons are selfish. If you are focused primarily on other people or other things, then people will take your reasoning as not or less selfish. I mean, people don't complain that priests are selfish for not having children, right. I don't think that it's just because they aren't allowed to (actually, a former priest at my church became a foster, then adoptive parent). It's because they are devoted to serving people in other ways. They have a different calling. You don't have to be religious to have a different calling, but it does have to be focused on something other than yourself.
..and sometimes things just don't work out, or some have BTDT with other people's kids. That doesn't seem selfish. But there are selfish reasons, I'm sure mentioned earlier in the thread. (They always are.) There are also a few selfish reasons to have kids, but despite claims to the contrary here, I don't think they are the norm either.
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
Me too.
Last year I got the “no offence, but in my experience, single, childless professional women are selfish” from an acquaintance. Needless to say, said acquaintance is no longer being acquainted by me.
My new favourite response to this type of comment is to shrug and say, “we get/have to be since no one else is thinking of us”. Single, middle aged women pretty much take the award for the most invisible people out there.
I'll start by saying that I don't think some degree of selfishness is a bad thing. It is unhealthy to only look after others and not yourself.
I think offspring are traditionally considered a social good and desirable due to the instinct for survival. A species that does not propagate itself does not have much of a foreseeable future. More taxpayers to replenish the tax base, young workers to be productive, etc.
Getting offspring to functional adulthood takes time, effort, and financial resources. Caregiving requires a lot of putting the dependent first, and when their kid is hungry, hurt, needing reassurance, sick, or just wanting to form emotional attachment, generally people don't throw their hands up and walk away because the parent "isn't feeling it" at the moment. Make that near-constant for almost two decades (and sometimes, forever), and that's a lot of putting someone else first, of active selflessness.
I'm a parent of a child who had a period of serious medical problems, and I'm a friend to families with children who have life-limiting disabilities. The kind of support and sacrifice those children deserve isn't something every potential parent wants to or can give. I'm very happy with my choice to have children but it is definitely not right for everyone. I'm glad there's more ability than ever to have or not have children according to each person's wishes. I don't think the "good" of the collective (species propagation, if you consider that a good) should automatically overrule individual wants (those who don't want to parent).
It does get tiresome to witness hostility to others who made different choices than the speaker (non parents scolded as "selfish" or "immature" and parents derided as mindless "breeders" or children talked about as though they're some sort of blight.) It's a divisive and alienating topic.
-
As animals all of us act in our self interest, regardless of whether or not it appears that way. Selfish is a silly word imo since everything we do is for our own interest already (whether directly or indirectly).
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
Me too.
Last year I got the “no offence, but in my experience, single, childless professional women are selfish” from an acquaintance. Needless to say, said acquaintance is no longer being acquainted by me.
My new favourite response to this type of comment is to shrug and say, “we get/have to be since no one else is thinking of us”. Single, middle aged women pretty much take the award for the most invisible people out there.
"No offense, but" is something people say when they know full well they're about to say something deliberately hurtful and generally unwarranted, but wish to avoid the otherwise predictable negative consequences. In this case, the acquaintance was about to barf out a tired and inaccurate stereotype that should have been put to bed decades ago.
"Selfish" is a word, generally applied by a person from a member of a socially powerful or advantaged group to a person from a less advantaged group who aspires to luxuries or freedom above his or her perceived station. It's OK for members of more exalted groups to enjoy things like free time unencumbered by service to others, but when a (gasp!) female has the audacity to want something besides decades of servitude, or to want something that doesn't advance the speaker's interests or ideology, the speaker takes action to stomp on that urge as quickly as possible. "Selfish" generally means "unwilling to want what I have picked out for you" or "unwilling to sacrifice your interests in favor of what I deem a more appropriate use for your time, resources, and flesh". It's just a control play, and a pretty amateur one to boot.
-
And I'm genuinely curious as to why some people think it's selfish to not want/have children, so I'm happy to hear what people think on that one.
I'm also genuinely curious about the "selfish" or "self-serving" label that some people attach to other people who do not want to have children.
The first time I ever heard this was from a friend in college; her mother was a fervent Catholic. Her mother had told my friend, her daughter, that she could understand not wanting to have children but she felt it was selfish (presumably because she felt she had been called to be fruitful and multiply).
Are there non-religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish"?
Religious people who think not wanting children is "selfish", is this a tenant of your religion?
Like Llewellyn2006, I am "genuinely curious", and not wanting to start a flame war.
Me too.
Last year I got the “no offence, but in my experience, single, childless professional women are selfish” from an acquaintance. Needless to say, said acquaintance is no longer being acquainted by me.
My new favourite response to this type of comment is to shrug and say, “we get/have to be since no one else is thinking of us”. Single, middle aged women pretty much take the award for the most invisible people out there.
"No offense, but" is something people say when they know full well they're about to say something deliberately hurtful and generally unwarranted, but wish to avoid the otherwise predictable negative consequences. In this case, the acquaintance was about to barf out a tired and inaccurate stereotype that should have been put to bed decades ago.
"Selfish" is a word, generally applied by a person from a member of a socially powerful or advantaged group to a person from a less advantaged group who aspires to luxuries or freedom above his or her perceived station. It's OK for members of more exalted groups to enjoy things like free time unencumbered by service to others, but when a (gasp!) female has the audacity to want something besides decades of servitude, or to want something that doesn't advance the speaker's interests or ideology, the speaker takes action to stomp on that urge as quickly as possible. "Selfish" generally means "unwilling to want what I have picked out for you" or "unwilling to sacrifice your interests in favor of what I deem a more appropriate use for your time, resources, and flesh". It's just a control play, and a pretty amateur one to boot.
I don’t see that. A lot of privileged people get called out for being selfish. Especially wealthy do nothing CEOs and such. A lot of people in general get called out for being selfish. Without diverting the topic, no criticism of, say, Black Lives Matter mentions their “selfishness” of wanting to walk around without needing body armor when cops are around. Nor do feminist critics rail on about women being “selfish” for not fulfilling traditional gender roles and responsibilities. A lot will even say they suck “but it’s God’s will.”
I’m totally on board with not having children for any reason, selfish or not
-
I don't think the "good" of the collective (species propagation, if you consider that a good) should automatically overrule individual wants (those who don't want to parent).
Parenting is not the only 'good' job in the 'collective'. The hive needs honey bees, nursing bees, as well as the mother bee, to function well.
There are lots of childless folk who live highly productive lives in society, and plenty of parents who add nothing to the collective but trouble.
Here in Norway parents get a lot of government sponsored pregnancy and parenting leave, as well as many free days for staying home with a sick child. The childfree people sponsor all these free days by working and paying taxes. So we contribute to the collective as well.
-
I am actually on vacation with one of our adult children. I always wanted a big family, and started young. My husband didn't think he wanted to have kids or to get married at 30, but 5 kids and 32 yrs later, we've never been happier. We've had a great life, despite financial concerns, illnesses, and issues at different times. So for us, it's been the best choice and we adore our 2 grandchildren.
Nonetheless, if one of our kids chooses not to have children, we'll support that too. My advice would be to make absolutely sure of your decision. As with my husband, what he thought he wanted changed radically when he met me. He is a great dad, and credits our kids with making him a better man. Now we enjoy them as adults, embrace their life choices, and look forward to any additional grandchildren that may come into our lives.
-
I'm only 25, got the snip when I was 23. I've been CF since I realized children are optional, probably around 10 or 11. My husband got a vasectomy at 25 as a wedding gift to me, and because it aligns with his values.
We'd rather regret not having children than regret having them. It mostly comes down to us not wanting to be parents in any way shape or form.
I only regret the way other peoples' words have affected me in the past, making me feel bad for my choices.
As someone who's been contemplating getting a vasectomy for a while now, I hadn't considered that perspective..that's an excellent point.
I'm 34 and have never / still do not want children. I'm hoping that's old enough that I can safely go get snipped with a minimal chance of having regrets later.
-
One of the things that has always worried me about having a child too was having a child with severe disabilities. When was in college I was in a book store on tuesday afternoon, and there was a woman there flipping through music CDs (back when they sold these). She was attractive, probably in her late 30s or so. And with her, was a kid who I think was around 10 maybe 12 in what I can only describe as some kind of robot wheelchair. I can't remember if he was attached to any of it, and I didn't want to stare, but he looked to me like he was in a coma. I didn't see him reacting to anything going on in the environment. I quickly concluded that she was devoted to her son, that her husband was probably a high earner, and she tried to have some kind of normal life even though this boy required around-the-clock care.
What got to me was what would happen to this boy if he grew into a man and out-lived his parents? Who would care for him? Where would he go? These things terrified me imagining if I were in her situation.
I have never forgotten seeing them.
Even if the odds are so remote that I could end up in that situation, the fear of it and some others just added to dragging my feet to the desire to have any. My sister has had three boys are (thankfully) are very healthy, but I do have a couple of friends who deal with various disabilities. None to the degree that the woman I saw in the bookstore, but still I imagine disappointing and challenging to work with.
I guess as a parent I would do whatever it took, but if I had to choose to go take the risk of going down that road, or taking another with no risk at all, I guess I am playing it safe.
-
We are 55 and 52 and happily child free.
The only time I "regret" it is when I'm doing my income taxes. I wish I had about 12 deductions. But then I realize I'd actually have to live with the little monsters to get the deductions, and the "regret" goes away...
-
Oh, and I completely left out that as a kid myself, I was a complete terrorist. Just the notion that I would be passing my genes down to another little me, and that this kid could turn out to be even 1/2 of as bad as I was, should be enough for me to snip myself. I still sit in shame over what I put my parents through sometimes (even though things worked out in the end). I don't know how they did it. I don't think I could deal with a younger version of myself.