Author Topic: Old Age/Afraid of Dying  (Read 17631 times)

smalllife

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Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« on: February 26, 2013, 08:32:28 PM »
Just thinking out loud here, but I think it would be a good topic of discussion and relevant to our desired old-age staches.

Are you afraid of dying, and does that factor into your willingness to pay absurd amounts of money to keep yourself/loved ones alive?  Why do we value "life" in quantity rather than quality when it comes to old age, even though as Mustachians we generally look at life-time in quality - hence our desire to strive for early retirement?  The enormous sums set aside for medical care in old age seem to be at odds with this general outlook.

Everyone will likely have a personal and emotional reaction to this, but please hear me out.  This is the first time in human history where we have been able to artificially prolong life past that individual's ability to fully participate/appreciate/contribute (I couldn't find the right word for this) - both to society and their own life.  But at what cost?  We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on the elderly so that they can putter around, have someone change their diapers, and treat "old age diseases".  What happened to accepting old age and death with grace?

Personal background: I've watched my grandparents take drastically different approaches.  One has been mentally gone for years (just unwilling to put effort into life in general) but is in a nursing home at 5k/month while his body refuses to give out - great genes.  Another has had costly surgeries but continues to live on her own and has a fairly active social life.  A third was kept on costly life support when there was <2% chance of recovery: just prolonging the suffering of their family members.  A great grand parent suffered from Alzheimer's but seemed happy until the end - great planning and an inheritance spent on nursing homes.  None of the above is necessarily better than the others but they definitely reflect different attitudes towards life.

I'm curious how others feel about this.  The current system is unsustainable, but it seems like few people are willing to "sacrifice" their own futures.  Personally, I think I am.  I have no desire to be kept alive by machines, wish assisted suicide were socially acceptable, will sign a DNR when I feel it is time, and while I will plan for increased medical expenses in my older years, I do not expect to have the same level of care given to the current crop of senior citizens.  I love life but don't fear death like most people seem to, so I genuinely don't understand the "keep me alive at all costs to myself, my family, and society" view of most.

unplugged

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2013, 08:59:30 PM »
I think we now know how to be truly healthier longer though. There is a lot of brain research out there and we now can plan decades ahead to protect our brains for example. Like avoiding knocks from things like amusement park rides and falls in our youth. Avoiding hair dye as it supposedly can effect the brain. Another is that we have to keep learning brand new things that we have never learned before to keep the brain healthy. I want to live as long as possible but want to be able to fully enjoy it. For me happiness means  being around family until the end.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 09:45:20 PM by unplugged »

kudy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2013, 09:14:54 PM »
I'll admit I fear death. I hope to no longer have that fear when I am older.

JamesL

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2013, 09:41:36 PM »
I can relate. My grandmother had Dementia and was in an assisted living situation that was $4.5-5k per month, for several years. The estate that my grandfather had built was nearly spent on keeping her alive. He died decades before, and I guess his plan was to ensure she had enough to live off, so his job was done. However that meant a million dollar setup was dwindled down to around $120k (partially due to poor planning from my aunt), which was then split 3 days on her death.

Is it bad to wish she had passed 5 years earlier to save the family the heart ache of Dementia and losing $500k? My dad and I visited her just about every weekend, so it's not like we didn't care, but damn it seems like such a waste, for everyone.

Anyway, I personally don't want to be kept alive with assisted living or other means. I mean, if I'm depending on other people like that and I don't know what's going on, what's the point of "living" (if you can call it that). I'd rather that money go to my family, a donation, or in the case where I don't have the money, I'd rather my family not pay to keep me around.

Great philosophical question.

Nords

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2013, 10:27:30 PM »
Are you afraid of dying, and does that factor into your willingness to pay absurd amounts of money to keep yourself/loved ones alive?  Why do we value "life" in quantity rather than quality when it comes to old age, even though as Mustachians we generally look at life-time in quality - hence our desire to strive for early retirement?  The enormous sums set aside for medical care in old age seem to be at odds with this general outlook.
I've seen enough dying to no longer be afraid of it, but I'm beginning to think that it's inevitable.  It might even happen to me one day. 

I value quantity because every day of it gives me another opportunity to raise the quality.  Perhaps my attitude might change in the face of chronic pain or a terminal disease, but even then I think I'd be curious to see what the next sunrise looks like.  I don't think anyone knows until they get to their breaking point, and by then all you can hope is that someone can fetch your stockpile of Percocet and maybe a nice bottle of cabernet sauvignon.

As for the "enormous sums", how would one be frugal with medical spending?  It all depends on whose grandmother is being treated.  You go first. 

Everyone will likely have a personal and emotional reaction to this, but please hear me out.  This is the first time in human history where we have been able to artificially prolong life past that individual's ability to fully participate/appreciate/contribute (I couldn't find the right word for this) - both to society and their own life.  But at what cost?  We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on the elderly so that they can putter around, have someone change their diapers, and treat "old age diseases".  What happened to accepting old age and death with grace?
My Dad's been living with Alzheimer's since late 2008 but insisted on living independently (as Alzheimer's patients often do at first).  He finally moved to a care facility in March 2011 after his literal near-death experience with a perforated ulcer.  He spent the early part of 2012 dealing with chemotherapy for multiple myeloma (so far so good) and he's currently deep into mid-stage Alzheimer's symptoms.

Yet for perhaps the first time in his life... he's happy.  I don't mean tap-dancing-in-the-halls high-fiving happy, but "content", "relaxed", "mellow", "not worrying about the future", and "at peace" happy.  If it took disabling his hippocampus and wiping out 50 years of memory to help him achieve this, who am I to argue?  Every day he's thrilled to discover that the care facility takes care of his cooking, cleaning, & laundry.  Every day he's thrilled by the surprise of one adult child visiting him and learning that the other is taking care of his finances.  He's tremendously relieved that the facility "lets him work there and stay over on the weekends" so that he doesn't have to figure out how to find his home.  He loves walking the grounds and hanging out in the sunshine with the squirrels & birds.  Dad's life is just like Bob DeMarco's Alzheimer's Reading Room blog.  It seems pretty good.  We're also beginning to realize that he may have been chronically depressed for most of the last 25 years.  So what if this is literally the best part of his life?

I'm curious how others feel about this.  The current system is unsustainable, but it seems like few people are willing to "sacrifice" their own futures.  Personally, I think I am.  I have no desire to be kept alive by machines, wish assisted suicide were socially acceptable, will sign a DNR when I feel it is time, and while I will plan for increased medical expenses in my older years, I do not expect to have the same level of care given to the current crop of senior citizens.  I love life but don't fear death like most people seem to, so I genuinely don't understand the "keep me alive at all costs to myself, my family, and society" view of most.
On the practical side, Dad's been signing DNRs for over two decades.  My brother and I were willing to go along with his chemotherapy the first time, and Dad came through it like the iron man that he used to be, but he can't handle that again if the myeloma comes out of remission.  He wouldn't be able to endure the physical or emotional stress, and the chemo would cause more pain & suffering than the hospice.  However last year's chemotherapy was definitely worth having the additional year of his life, even if he can't remember any of it. 

The book "When The Time Comes" is an excellent read about families coping with this decision.  (http://the-military-guide.com/2012/02/09/book-review-when-the-time-comes/)  It turns out that the current system is more sustainable than the media claims, because more families are stepping up with home/assisted/respite care.  Nursing home populations are actually dropping even as the Boomers are "aging in" to this phase of life.  More doctors are comfortable with DNRs, and hospice is accepted as the next step instead of an admission of failure. 

If (or more likely, "when") Alzheimers affects my cognition, I'll probably be a happy patient.  I'd like to think that I'd be able to continue surfing as long as I'm able, and hopefully I'll be able to enjoy some kind of media-- the Internet, reading, movies, or music.  I'll buy a long-term care insurance policy in the next 10-15 years, and I'll self-insure whatever exceeds that.  However I doubt that I'll be aware of the time when I can't handle my activities, let alone my finances, and I'll probably continue to be a happy guy until I die. 

The real stress and difficulty will be borne by my spouse and daughter, but I'm not sure that my euthanasia would be regarded as a socially acceptable means of easing their burden.  My spouse and I will probably continue having that conversation until I'm no longer able to remember having it... or until she brings me a nice bottle of cabernet sauvignon.

tmac

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2013, 06:46:14 AM »
My family culture includes two ideas: 1) You don't impose on others. 2) "It is what it is."

My grandmother did things in the way that I hope to. She was living on her own and healthy until she was 92, a few states away from anyone else. Things started to take a turn, and the rest of us worried, so she moved herself into a good assisted living place near my parents.

Two years after that, she decided she'd done everything she wanted to do, and there were more bad days than good, so she procured a prescription from her doctor. She had already asked her three children if they wanted a phone call to say goodbye: my two uncles said yes, so they got a call. My mother said no, because she worried that she wouldn't be able to let her go, so my grandmother wrote her a letter. She was found the next morning in bed by the nursing staff.

Her apartment was clean, her papers were in order, and she had long ago noted which of her few belongings should pass on to which family members and friends, and what should be donated or disposed of. There was no discussion about the sentimental value of things that were really just "things." She specifically requested no funeral or memorial, but we did gather to toast her and comfort each other.

It was sad, but not tragic, for most of us. The few family members who are religious, however, were traumatized because they knew she was an atheist and were sure she was going to hell. They went so far as to insinuate that she had probably accepted Jesus on her deathbed, an idea was was promptly shot down by the rest as disrespectful. The decision was made to withhold from them that it was a planned death, because they wouldn't have been able to accept it. As far as they know, she died in her sleep.

We tell our kids that, although we don't believe in an afterlife, we know that our atoms will reappear in the plants, animals, soil, and rocks all around us. It's kind of nice to think of parts of us living on in flowers, trees, birds, worms, etc. When someone dies, we're sad for them, but really, we're sad for ourselves. Life will go on.

GuitarStv

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2013, 06:51:11 AM »
I'm more afraid of senility or infirmity.

Being unable to move about freely, or being confined to sitting in a particular location for 12 hours a day without the ability to do what you want to do?  That's hell.

Being unable to remember your loved ones, or being unable to convey the ideas in your head?  That's hell.

Death is not as scary as either of those scenarios.

arebelspy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 07:00:01 AM »
I just had a long discussion with my best friend about this very topic over email maybe a week ago, so I'm just going to cut and paste some of those comments I made there, you can read or not (this will be wordy).

It started with this quote:
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I've read that the philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein believed that "no matter what happened in the world, nothing bad could happen to [him—he] was independent of fate and circumstance." Ray Monk, Wittgenstein's biographer, says this thought sustained the philosopher when he was a forward artillery observer on the Eastern Front during the First World War, rewriting his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus in a trench—which is an extraordinary fact, if true. I've remembered Wittgenstein's dictum when challenged by far less trying circumstances. No matter what happens in the world, nothing bad can happen to me. It's a recipe for courage and perseverance, don't you think?

And how I feel the same way.  Then he mentioned death as inevitable and not being independent from that fate.  He mentioned Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl.

Then I said:
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The choice we can make in our reactions to things, that ultimate freedom, is what can make us free from fate.

I think my thoughts on death are different than most people's.  And probably result from the same attitude that makes me feel that nothing bad can happen to me.

Call no man happy until he is dead, but I don't think death is a thing to fear, at all.  Thus, when I think about being independent from fate and circumstance, with that comes an independence from death.  Not because I won't die.  I will, in 0-70 years or so.  But because whenever death comes, I am at peace with it.  Death ultimately has as little power over anyone as they choose to give it.

I could die tonight in my sleep and be happy with the choices I've made and life I've lived.  Or I could live another 50 years and (I feel now that I will) feel the same then.  If nothing bad can happen to me, why would death, something that will happen to me, be bad?

(Among some other stuff.)

He's quite religious, so attacked it from that angle, and then brought up life after death, to which I replied:
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Regarding the comment you made at the end: "I'm not sure what your thoughts are on the specifics of after death" - I guess my off the cuff answer would be I'm not too concerned about it, if it happens.

Think of the movie Groundhog Day.  Despite the fact that he'll have to start all over the next day, eventually he reaches the realization that he wants to live one perfect day, and he tries over and over, tweaking and improving, in order to live a perfect day.  Tomorrow doesn't matter to him (literally, because there is no tomorrow), all he can affect is that one day.

Life, to me, is like this.  Whatever there is after it, if anything, will happen.  That's good with me.  But "today" (this life), I want to live it as perfectly as I can.  Will I always succeed?  Heck no!  But I look at what is in my influence and control and see what can I do to make my life better and the lives of those around me better.  Because I have this life, like he had that day, regardless of a "tomorrow" (or afterlife).

He mentioned in part of his reply:
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As far as not being concerned about what happens after death,again I think that contains great value to a certain point, but ultimately finds greatest truth in a type of balance, like the pause of breath between the answer and the question, for that is one of the greatest places we can hope to be, and the one where wisdom often seems to hide.  I think also in our day in age it is much easier to have a sense of removal from death, one that does not seem correct or familiar to generations past, one that is almost sly and deceiving, like a feeling death perhaps may just not happen.

And I said:
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I think you're right.  For myself though, I know I will die, but I'm not unhappy about it.  I think my saying I'm not "concerned" about what happens almost implies that I don't care.  That's not the case, but when I say I'm not concerned I mean that I don't fear it or worry about it.  As they say in Hook, death is but the next great adventure.  But while I have this life, I want to live it as perfectly as I am able.

I am ready to die, be it tonight in my sleep, next year in a car crash, or in 60 years.

I had a dream once where I died.  I was in a car, driving, and a big wall of water came up.  I was in a canyon, and there was no where to go.  The water washed over the car, burst through the windshield, and I died.

It was the most blissful and peaceful moment I've ever experienced.  The burst of pure happiness I experienced in the moment I died in that dream was unlike anything else I've ever felt.  I was at peace. 

I think the reason that is is because I'm happy with my life.  I know that when death comes, even if it's today, I won't regret anything.   So, although I know it was just a dream, and death can be terrible (so many people die from starvation that it makes me sick), I also know that I don't fear death, because it has no power over me.  As long as I continue living to my standards, I have no reason to fear death.

Failure in this life - doing wrong, or not doing what I could have - is much more worrisome to me than death.  Because I can control the former, but not the latter.  So I worry about what I can control, making my life and others lives better, rather than what I can't, death.

It went back and forth for awhile, but those are some of my main thoughts on death.

Given that perspective, naturally there is no reason to try and prolong anything past the point of ridiculousness.  tamara's grandmother sounds like good way to handle it, IMO.
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boy_bye

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 08:16:41 AM »
great discussion here. i am dealing with this now with my grandmother, who was doing perfectly well on her own until about 2 years ago. i helped a bit -- drove her to doctors appointments, took her to target, etc. -- but she was really quite independent.

then she had a heart attack, and it's been like a roller coaster ever since. she's always been a trooper -- i don't think you make it to age 89 unless you are -- but she's had some seriously bad times in the last few years. her short and medium term memory have really suffered, as has her ability to move around and do things for herself. and she knows, and it makes her quite sad.

this last round in the hospital, after she broke her hip in january, was the worst. one night in ICU she told me she just wanted us kids to come say goodbye, then take a pill and be done with this life. and she cried when i explained that that's not possible or legal right now.

since then, she's bounced back a bit, but yeah. it's hard. we've signed several living-will-type documents, and i've spoken to each of the dozens of caretakers she's had over the last two years about her wishes to not be resuscitated, etc. and still, last time i talked to the nursing home staff, she was listed as a "full code." i filled out the forms again and they have changed her paperwork, but i don't have a lot of faith that the changes are going to stick.

it's really frustrating, and my worst nightmare is that in the last moments of her life she is having her ribs crushed by someone doing useless CPR on her, or something awful like that.

it is hard for her, and it's also hard for me because i am basically her only emotional support. i just want her to have some peace, but it's hard to come by.

i have been pleasantly surprised by the care she gets in manor care, though. i haven't checked out any of the long term medicare facilities yet, but the short term ones she's been in have been pretty nice and receptive to requests overall.

Cid47

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 09:00:22 AM »
Here are a couple of articles that I came across a while back and bookmarked. They are from the perspective of an ER doctor and deal with the issue of quality vs quantity of life. They also touch on the topic of having to make that choice from the outside (i.e. relatives choosing to end life support) when an individual does not have measures already put in place.

As for me: I'm still too young to feel one way or another about my death (I'm 33 and still invincible in my own mind), but when I look at it objectively, I certainly agree with the quality over quantity side of the house. I mean, what good is extra time at the end if you are not in a condition to enjoy it? Of course, this is much easier to say when the odds are that you still have 50-60 good years ahead of you...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-unrealistic-views-of-death-through-a-doctors-eyes/2012/01/31/gIQAeaHpJR_story.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/09/AR2009010902298.html

sherr

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2013, 09:04:15 AM »
I generally agree with the comments so far in this thread. It may be unusual for a religious person (in my case Christian), but I don't think there is anything wrong with choosing to end your life if you are in constant pain or are a burden on others. It would probably take some pretty strong circumstances for me to arrive at that decision myself, but I think that is greatly preferable if the alternatives are terrible chronic pain or senility. I really hope that by the time I'm old enough for this to be an issue for me that euthanasia has become more socially acceptable.

 
I'm more afraid of senility or infirmity.

Being unable to move about freely, or being confined to sitting in a particular location for 12 hours a day without the ability to do what you want to do?  That's hell.

Being unable to remember your loved ones, or being unable to convey the ideas in your head?  That's hell.

Death is not as scary as either of those scenarios.

I'm 100% with you there GuitarStv.

The decision was made to withhold from them that it was a planned death, because they wouldn't have been able to accept it. As far as they know, she died in her sleep.

I actually strongly disagree with that course of action tamara. I have been the recipient of withheld information in almost the exact same scenario. In my case it was my grandfather, and my parents were the ones that didn't tell me it was planned. I didn't find out until a couple of years later, and that was by accident. I was furious with my parents. That is my grandfather, how dare they withhold information about his death from me! Once I cooled down a bit I realized that their relationship to him was a lot closer than mine and they were only trying to look out for my best interest, however misguided that might be.

I'm not sure if in your case it was the children or grandchildren who were not told, and I'm sure you had very little say in the matter. However I think not telling the grandchildren is bad, but arguably a decision that should be left up to their parents. Not telling the children though is inexcusable. No one has the right to make the decision to withhold information about your own parent's death, regardless of how they think you'll take it.

A mildly related topic:
A lot of the stigma in the Christian circles about planned death is vestigial holdovers from Catholicism (unless of course you are Catholic, in which case it's not really vestigial). The reasoning goes that:
1) Suicide is self-murder.
2) Murder is a sin
3) You must confess / repent of every sin to be forgiven of it
Therefore: Suicide is an unforgivable sin and you'll go straight to hell for it.

I disagree with #3, but that is a different topic entirely. What is more relevant is that I disagree with #1. Suicide is not self-murder in the same way that spending your own money is not self-theft. It is a different situation entirely if you choose what to do with your own resources than if someone else chooses for you and forces a decision on you.

I think that forcing life upon people that do not want it is almost as bad as forcing death on people that don't want it. I don't think there is any person or entity on this planet that has the right to make that decision for someone else, the government included. I think that it is extremely unfortunate that so much of the legal system in place in the US is based on "Christian" values, and have high hopes that the continued secularization of the country will lead to laws like these getting repealed. Unfortunately that doesn't help the people who are suffering now. :(

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2013, 09:10:47 AM »
 This is the first time in human history where we have been able to artificially prolong life past that individual's ability to fully participate/appreciate/contribute (I couldn't find the right word for this) - both to society and their own life.  But at what cost?  We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on the elderly so that they can putter around, have someone change their diapers, and treat "old age diseases".  What happened to accepting old age and death with grace?


[/quote]

The truth is that we, in the US, spend an enormous portion of our health care dollars on the last days or weeks of life, on intensive care, life support, etc.  If we could only redirect some of that to increasing the quality of life for all instead we could solve some of our healthcare problems.  We should be focusing more on basic healthcare and health education - getting people to take responsibility for their health through diet and exercise for instance.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2013, 09:38:49 AM »
I kind of feel like spending any of my time worrying about my own death is ... a small death.  The death of THAT precious minute, anyway.  We're all on our way to the great beyond.  I'll worry about that when I get there.  :)  I've held someone's hand as they died and I haven't worried about my own death since.  Not in a philosophical sense, anyway.

I just typed up and deleted a huge rant on medical spending.  I'd offend someone or other.  :)  The abbreviated version, we should be spending more on kids healthcare issues and less on shovelling adult dollars back and forth to each other for petty adult "medical" issues.  Also, we root and cheer and raise money for boobs and prostates, because we ourselves have boobs and prostates to worry about.  Small ones can't do that for themselves, we need to raise kids cancers up to the same level, in my opinion.  Having recently lost a very young friend to Neuroblastoma, which you should go and google right now and then donate a few of your employee$ to help cure, I would say we NEED to throw a (expletive deleted) ton of healthcare dollars at that (expletive deleted) disease, and others like it.  When I'm old, you can take my palliative care costs and shove it straight into research for childhood diseases.  I should be the one wasting away, not some little kid.  End abbreviated rant. 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2013, 09:46:12 AM »
Nords, I enjoyed reading about your Dad. If that happens to me, I figure I may not remember my kids, but they will remember me! What if I am happy that way? If this happens to me,  my kids should just buy the Duck Dynasty DVD set. I wont need much else because every day the episodes would be brand new for me :D That and watching birds and squirrels all day sounds pretty fun to me. I know a man with this condition and this is literally his life and he is happy. His family lives upstairs so he feels like he has his own home too. Though they do have a maid come in once a week to help with the basic cleaning.


savingtofreedom

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2013, 01:01:56 PM »
My family culture includes two ideas: 1) You don't impose on others. 2) "It is what it is."

My grandmother did things in the way that I hope to. She was living on her own and healthy until she was 92, a few states away from anyone else. Things started to take a turn, and the rest of us worried, so she moved herself into a good assisted living place near my parents.

Two years after that, she decided she'd done everything she wanted to do, and there were more bad days than good, so she procured a prescription from her doctor. She had already asked her three children if they wanted a phone call to say goodbye: my two uncles said yes, so they got a call. My mother said no, because she worried that she wouldn't be able to let her go, so my grandmother wrote her a letter. She was found the next morning in bed by the nursing staff.

Her apartment was clean, her papers were in order, and she had long ago noted which of her few belongings should pass on to which family members and friends, and what should be donated or disposed of. There was no discussion about the sentimental value of things that were really just "things." She specifically requested no funeral or memorial, but we did gather to toast her and comfort each other.

It was sad, but not tragic, for most of us. The few family members who are religious, however, were traumatized because they knew she was an atheist and were sure she was going to hell. They went so far as to insinuate that she had probably accepted Jesus on her deathbed, an idea was was promptly shot down by the rest as disrespectful. The decision was made to withhold from them that it was a planned death, because they wouldn't have been able to accept it. As far as they know, she died in her sleep.

We tell our kids that, although we don't believe in an afterlife, we know that our atoms will reappear in the plants, animals, soil, and rocks all around us. It's kind of nice to think of parts of us living on in flowers, trees, birds, worms, etc. When someone dies, we're sad for them, but really, we're sad for ourselves. Life will go on.

This whole post is so beautiful. I also don't believe in the afterlife and when I have kids I hope to explain death in a similar manner.

I do fear death now though - especially as I am still a working mustachian and the idea of passing before early retirement is depressing.

arebelspy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2013, 02:01:53 PM »
This whole post is so beautiful. I also don't believe in the afterlife and when I have kids I hope to explain death in a similar manner.

I do fear death now though - especially as I am still a working mustachian and the idea of passing before early retirement is depressing.

Might want to start working on it now then.

A quote I have saved in my good quotes notebook is: "Do you want to die today?  You won't tomorrow either."
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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2013, 02:19:53 PM »
The decision was made to withhold from them that it was a planned death, because they wouldn't have been able to accept it. As far as they know, she died in her sleep.

I actually strongly disagree with that course of action tamara. I have been the recipient of withheld information in almost the exact same scenario. In my case it was my grandfather, and my parents were the ones that didn't tell me it was planned. I didn't find out until a couple of years later, and that was by accident. I was furious with my parents. That is my grandfather, how dare they withhold information about his death from me! Once I cooled down a bit I realized that their relationship to him was a lot closer than mine and they were only trying to look out for my best interest, however misguided that might be.

I'm not sure if in your case it was the children or grandchildren who were not told, and I'm sure you had very little say in the matter. However I think not telling the grandchildren is bad, but arguably a decision that should be left up to their parents. Not telling the children though is inexcusable. No one has the right to make the decision to withhold information about your own parent's death, regardless of how they think you'll take it.

Sherr, I respect your position, and how you came to it.

You are correct that it wasn't my decision to make. See family culture above: I try not to impose my opinions, and it is what it is. :)

For clarification: My grandmother's three children were all told (two ahead of time, one after the fact). Two of those children (my mother and one of her brothers) opted to tell all of their own children. She'd already discussed it with many of us, so it wasn't a surprise.

Her oldest son told his oldest daughter but chose not to tell his wife and their three younger children, who are all fundamentalist Christians. I'm not very well versed in Christianity as a whole, but my experience with them is that their particular type of belief is quite unforgiving of transgression of any sort. He made the judgement based on his belief that the knowledge would tarnish their memory of her and they would be unable to remember her with love and joy.

This whole post is so beautiful. I also don't believe in the afterlife and when I have kids I hope to explain death in a similar manner.

I do fear death now though - especially as I am still a working mustachian and the idea of passing before early retirement is depressing.

Thanks so much, savingtofreedom. It's hard for me to be afraid of something that I won't even be aware of if it happens. My only real fear is that I'll die before my family is ready to thrive without me. So I try to make sure that the kids are as independent as possible, that our financial and other papers are in order, that there's enough life insurance for a mourning period, child care, and college, and that my husband knows I expect him to marry again if he wants to.

He already has permission already to leave me for Sofía Vergara if she's ever willing. :)

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2013, 03:57:20 PM »
tamara, your grandmother' story is absolutely beautiful.  That is exactly how I would like to go.

Quote from: sherr
I think that forcing life upon people that do not want it is almost as bad as forcing death on people that don't want it. I don't think there is any person or entity on this planet that has the right to make that decision for someone else, the government included. I think that it is extremely unfortunate that so much of the legal system in place in the US is based on "Christian" values, and have high hopes that the continued secularization of the country will lead to laws like these getting repealed. Unfortunately that doesn't help the people who are suffering now.

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

@KulshanGirl: I had to hold back on that topic myself, except that I don't think kids should be prioritized above adults.  Adults are humans worthy of medical attention just as much, and perhaps even more so, then children.  Another thread perhaps.

Do we think that society can get over the fear of dying?  My hope is that if religion keeps waning that perhaps we can (religion making death the bogeyman in many instances).  Do you expect the same entitlement as the current crop of seniors when you get to old age?  I'd almost be embarrassed of my country if we still spent so much keeping people alive just because we can sixty years from now.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2013, 05:25:55 PM »
@smalllife, I agree completely.  I am saying that kids should get AS MANY research dollars as adults, proportionally.  Not more, necessarily.  Right now there is a huge imbalance.  I don't think kids are more entitled to care, I just think that they should be assured care at the expense of some of the more elective sorts of things that insurance covers these days. 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 06:49:30 PM »
Some may find it morbid, but I already have a "Project Death" folder in my ToDo list. Over the next 5 years I'd like to have my will/estate in order, as well as some written instructions on what to do with my things / release my stuff after I day.

I'm also working on the morbid mustachian project of saving for my own grave plot! My mother already offered me a spot in the small town where they live, but it's not really my style.

So yeah.. unless I die soon (please no, I wanna make 100!) I'll have my funeral service, grave, will and testament, etc, all in place well before I'm dead.

I watched my stepfather die of pancreatic cancer last year in his final week and I think there are some experiences that are definitely worse than death.

I may take myself out when I'm old and feeling like it should be the end of my life. If it's good enough for the samurai, it's good enough for me. I don't think there's any shame in it, under those circumstances.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2013, 06:50:00 PM »
I hope that when it's my time, I'll know, and I'll graciously let go. But I don't know. It's easy to say that now when I'm healthy and young, but how will I feel when I'm older? Or what if my body quits before my mind? Or my mind before my body? Ugh. I... really like being alive, guys.

Anyway, all of this is foremost on my mind because we might need to deal with it sooner than expected with my fiance's mother. We don't know anything definitive yet, so it could all be nothing... But trying to prepare for the emotional and financial dimensions of assisted living and/or rapid decline is no fun. 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2013, 09:00:46 PM »
... so she procured a prescription from her doctor.
Every time I've seen this situation described, it lacks details.

What was in the prescription, what was the recommended dose, and is this legal in the state of Hawaii?

When my mother (a RN) was at home dying of cancer, she stockpiled Demerol and hid some in every nook & cranny of every room where she spent her time.  We were finding Demerol stashes for six months after she passed away. 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2013, 05:15:01 AM »
... so she procured a prescription from her doctor.
Every time I've seen this situation described, it lacks details.

Yeah, that's because I don't know. My understanding is that the doctor knew what she was going to do, and gave her something adequate for the job.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2013, 06:07:50 AM »
I'm afraid of old age..more because I'm 25 and already live in severe pain nearly every day thanks to arthritis in my spine. :( It's hard to imagine what life may look like for me in 20-60 years.
When it comes to death, I believe in natural birth..natural death.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2013, 12:10:44 PM »
I don't fear death, I fear not being here for my family.  The financial part is mitigated by our savings and life insurance and I have told my wife that I will go willingly if the alternative is financial uncertainty for them and for the disposal (funeral) do whatever is cheapest - prefeferably just dump my body at sea (I like to swim).

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2013, 08:11:48 AM »
My grandmother had Dementia and was in an assisted living situation that was $4.5-5k per month, for several years. The estate that my grandfather had built was nearly spent on keeping her alive. He died decades before, and I guess his plan was to ensure she had enough to live off, so his job was done. However that meant a million dollar setup was dwindled down to around $120k (partially due to poor planning from my aunt), which was then split 3 days on her death.


And this is why you pony up for long term care insurance when you hit 60.  If things go as normal, I'll hit the old folks home long before my wife.  I have no intention of blowing my Stache and leaving her in poverty just because my body and brain wears out.

smalllife

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2013, 08:18:43 AM »
And this is why you pony up for long term care insurance when you hit 60.  If things go as normal, I'll hit the old folks home long before my wife.  I have no intention of blowing my Stache and leaving her in poverty just because my body and brain wears out.

But why get long term care insurance at all?  That is still perpetuating extreme levels of spending on old age, even though now it's the insurance company paying instead of you. 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2013, 11:00:53 AM »
But why get long term care insurance at all?  That is still perpetuating extreme levels of spending on old age, even though now it's the insurance company paying instead of you.
It seems to me that your choices are:
1.  Buy LTC insurance to defray the expenses,
2.  Spend your own money,
3.  Spend Medicaid's money (in the U.S.), or
4.  Euthanasia.

I've known families that used more than one of those four options, and one family that hit all four. 

As a more concrete example, my father's finishing up his second year in a care facility.  Over the 18 years before that he spent approximately $11K on the premiums for his long-term care insurance policy.  His max payout is approximately $318K.  John Hancock pooled the risk, and now they're paying for it. 

Is there another alternative to the four I've listed?  What would you prefer to do?

smalllife

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2013, 03:42:41 PM »
It seems to me that your choices are:
1.  Buy LTC insurance to defray the expenses,
2.  Spend your own money,
3.  Spend Medicaid's money (in the U.S.), or
4.  Euthanasia.

Is there another alternative to the four I've listed?  What would you prefer to do?

I would prefer to rework the existing old age care framework.  Most seniors can get by with a weekly or daily check up to make sure they didn't fall - why pay for an assisted living facility when you don't need it?  You could hire a live in or full time caretaker for less than those places cost.  I'd rather more people took that approach.  By the time it gets to the point where you really need the assisted living (on tremendous amounts of medication, need a doctor at a moment's call), that's when you have the serious discussion about euthanasia and/or dying with dignity.

5. Live in your own space with check ins from a nurse/caretaker.
6. Rethink the value in spending so much money on end of life care and adjust expectations of old age accordingly

Who says you have to spend the money at all?

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 05:30:49 PM »
I'm afraid of old age..more because I'm 25 and already live in severe pain nearly every day thanks to arthritis in my spine. :( It's hard to imagine what life may look like for me in 20-60 years.
When it comes to death, I believe in natural birth..natural death.
I'm in a similar boat. I'm 24 and I've been dealing with terrible chronic back pain for 14 years now (yes you read that right). The doctors can't figure out what it is and it really decreases my quality of life. I think science will figure something out (soon?) to help us and we won't be in even worse pain when we're older.
I have a hard time supporting strictly natural death though because there are people with even worse health/pain issues (many of which are elderly) than I have. I couldn't imagine living like that and can understand why they wouldn't want to wait for a natural death.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2013, 07:19:05 PM »
The women in my family (my mother and both grandmothers) have all had the good fortune to die very quickly (within a day or minutes of getting "sick.")  I hope to be the same way.  At this point my worries about dying are all about my son and how he would deal with it, and my wife and how she would deal with our son.  I don't feel "allowed" to die at this point in my life , as in, I am not allowed to refuse chemotherapy, I am not allowed to choose to not treat a disease, etc.  Within the next 20 years (he is 17) I think that will change.  At that point, bungee jumping here I come (or any other equivalent that attracts me more.)

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2013, 07:52:11 PM »
I would prefer to rework the existing old age care framework.  Most seniors can get by with a weekly or daily check up to make sure they didn't fall - why pay for an assisted living facility when you don't need it?  You could hire a live in or full time caretaker for less than those places cost.  I'd rather more people took that approach.  By the time it gets to the point where you really need the assisted living (on tremendous amounts of medication, need a doctor at a moment's call), that's when you have the serious discussion about euthanasia and/or dying with dignity.
I hear you, and it reads great on paper, but my experience has been different.

When my Dad got out of the ICU and resumed the "I want to go home" tactic, it turned out that live-in/full time caregivers cost at least twice as much a care facility (unless the majority of the live-in care comes from a family member).  It seems straightforward until care standards, caregiver performance, and litigation concerns rear their ugly heads.  Caregiver stability (skills & availability) is a growing concern.

A huge benefit of the care facility has been socialization and group activities (with a good ratio of caregivers to residents).  There's also a significant issue of safety and routine problem-solving.

5. Live in your own space with check ins from a nurse/caretaker.
6. Rethink the value in spending so much money on end of life care and adjust expectations of old age accordingly
Who says you have to spend the money at all?
I think tech is making #5 much more affordable for those who have cognition but are otherwise in poor health or frail.  We have a local company doing amazing things with wireless home medical equipment (scales, sphygmomanometers, glucosimeters) and touchscreen tablets on 3G.  Best of all the elder feels that they're in charge of the gear and the decision process.

As for #6, well, the usual debate is to suggest that we try it on your grandmother first.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2013, 06:09:16 AM »
I would prefer to rework the existing old age care framework.  Most seniors can get by with a weekly or daily check up to make sure they didn't fall - why pay for an assisted living facility when you don't need it?  You could hire a live in or full time caretaker for less than those places cost.  I'd rather more people took that approach.  By the time it gets to the point where you really need the assisted living (on tremendous amounts of medication, need a doctor at a moment's call), that's when you have the serious discussion about euthanasia and/or dying with dignity.
I hear you, and it reads great on paper, but my experience has been different.

When my Dad got out of the ICU and resumed the "I want to go home" tactic, it turned out that live-in/full time caregivers cost at least twice as much a care facility (unless the majority of the live-in care comes from a family member).  It seems straightforward until care standards, caregiver performance, and litigation concerns rear their ugly heads.  Caregiver stability (skills & availability) is a growing concern.

A huge benefit of the care facility has been socialization and group activities (with a good ratio of caregivers to residents).  There's also a significant issue of safety and routine problem-solving.

5. Live in your own space with check ins from a nurse/caretaker.
6. Rethink the value in spending so much money on end of life care and adjust expectations of old age accordingly
Who says you have to spend the money at all?
I think tech is making #5 much more affordable for those who have cognition but are otherwise in poor health or frail.  We have a local company doing amazing things with wireless home medical equipment (scales, sphygmomanometers, glucosimeters) and touchscreen tablets on 3G.  Best of all the elder feels that they're in charge of the gear and the decision process.

As for #6, well, the usual debate is to suggest that we try it on your grandmother first.

The big issue that I didn't anticipate with my grandma is her medication. When she's at home, she has helpers that spend 8 hours a day with her, doing her housework and helping her get a bath and making her meals. This is paid for by Pennsylvania's keep-people-out-of-nursing-homes program.

She also has a fancy medicine box that a nurse comes in to set up every 2 weeks, that beeps and tells her "TIME FOR YOUR MEDICATION" and shoots the pills out in a little cup for her to take.

The problem is she doesn't take them consistently. I find little cups with pills in them all over her apartment. And the sketchy med taking makes her frailer. Dizzy. Irritable and cognitively not all there. And then she does something that's beyond her abilities and falls down.

When she's in the nursing home, they stand there and make her take the pills. This is and of itself makes her 1000% better. To the point that she then starts making noises about wanting to go home, and they send her home again, and then the whole cycle begins again. This is the 4th time in 2 years.

So, we're sort of in a catch 22. If her helpers at home could make her take her medicine, or if I could, then she'd be OK at home, I think. But the helpers make very little money, and are generally like 22 year old girls, so forcing my gran to take her pills is above their pay grade.

And I am not going to harangue my grandma anymore. I made this decision a while ago. Unfortunately I am also going to have to be the one to make the decision to either let her go home and start the cycle again, or place her in a long term Medicare facility that is like something out of the nightmare version of "Cocoon." Which she will be fully cognizant of.

All because of the simple issue of not taking her pills.

It's easy to philosophize, but as Nords says, it's a whole different thing when it's your grandma. Sure, it makes logical sense to have her stay in a nursing home -- she's physically and mentally better off there. But when she is looking at me with her big blue eyes full of tears begging me to take her home, I'm not sure what my decision will be. I'm inclined to give her what she wants as much as I can for the last stretch of her life, even if that means we get into cycles 5, 10, or 20 of this home-->accident-->hospital-->rehab nightmare.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:10:53 AM by madgeylou »

smalllife

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 07:43:50 AM »
My grandma is still living on her own and perfectly functional, but we'll see how she is when her pets are gone.  The social factor of the nursing home my grandpa is in is completely lost on him - he has refused to be social for the last five years and sits in his room all day by himself. I don't have to make that decision for either of them though.  This discussion was about how we personally will handle end of life care - at which point I fully intend to act exactly as I described.  If I got a terminal illness tomorrow I think I would be the same: if there was no cure why waste time in painful and expensive treatments for a few more months of life? 

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2013, 02:17:27 PM »
This discussion was about how we personally will handle end of life care - at which point I fully intend to act exactly as I described.  If I got a terminal illness tomorrow I think I would be the same: if there was no cure why waste time in painful and expensive treatments for a few more months of life?
I agree that's a fairly straightforward decision.  On the other hand, we're dealing with parents/grandparents who may have lost the cognition to assess the situation in a rational manner, assuming that emotions and spiritual beliefs are not already an obstacle.

I'm not going to pretend that I have any answers for these questions, but the situation can be far more complicated than it appears with our 20/20 foresight.

Here's another example, well known among submariners.  ADM Nimitz of WWII had a son, Chester Jr., who acquitted himself with distinction in the submarine force and retired as an admiral.  By all accounts he and his spouse had a great life:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Nimitz,_Jr.

When they grew frail in 2001, they made a mutual euthanasia pact.  It was an open secret with their adult children-- they spent the holidays together and then on 1 January 2002 he and his spouse said their goodbyes.  He actually wrote them a new batch of gift checks for the new tax season to reduce the size of their estate.  Then the next day he helped his spouse kill herself before he did the same to himself.

Depending on who you read, he was one or more of the following:
1.  A supremely rational being who exited life on his terms in a manner to be emulated by all who feel the same.
2.  Demented and no longer capable of adequate cognition.
3.  Out of his mind with pain & painkillers and no longer capable of rational thought.
4.  A perpetrator of domestic violence and a murderer.
5.  A control freak who coerced his spouse into his manipulative plan.
6.  Terrified that their kids would put them in a nursing home.
7.  A sinner doomed to burn in hell forever.

Nobody accused him of being wimpy, wussy, or a complainypants.  But even when you do it well, you're still castigated.

Personally, when my cognition starts to decline then I'd prefer to have a way to minimize my spouse's suffering.  (I can't suffer much if I don't have the cognition to be aware of it.)  One way to do that would be to move me into a care facility where she can come & go as she pleases without subjecting herself to (too much) caregiver stress.  But at some point I'd be unable to comprehend my situation while she'd be fully aware of it.  I think that would upset her and cause her to feel a lot of stress even if she was on the beach while I was happily drooling on myself somewhere in a corner of the care facility.

Would it be fair to euthanize me when I can no longer form a memory?  At what point do I cross the line between "live another day" and "last meal"?  When I can no longer pass the mini-mental state exam?  When two doctors declare me unable to live independently?  When I lose my speech ability, or my bowel/bladder control, or the ability to swallow?  When the long-term care insurance claim runs out?  What if I have "good days" and "bad days"?  What if a cure is discovered the day after I'm euthanized?

As I said, I'm pretty good with the questions (so far) but not so much on the answers.  Bob DeMarco's Alzheimer's Reading Room has enabled me to achieve confusion at a much higher level.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2013, 04:02:58 AM »
I do not fear death - I have accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of life.

Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2013, 06:54:05 AM »
I do not fear death - I have accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of life.

Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.

What a horrible idea.  Life has meaning because it's finite.  I don't want to live forever.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 06:58:25 AM »
I do not fear death - I have accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of life.

Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.

What a horrible idea.  Life has meaning because it's finite.  I don't want to live forever.

Not disagreeing with you, but how long of a life would you say life becomes optimal?
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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 08:00:53 AM »
I'm afraid of old age..more because I'm 25 and already live in severe pain nearly every day thanks to arthritis in my spine. :( It's hard to imagine what life may look like for me in 20-60 years.
When it comes to death, I believe in natural birth..natural death.
I'm in a similar boat. I'm 24 and I've been dealing with terrible chronic back pain for 14 years now (yes you read that right). The doctors can't figure out what it is and it really decreases my quality of life. I think science will figure something out (soon?) to help us and we won't be in even worse pain when we're older.
I have a hard time supporting strictly natural death though because there are people with even worse health/pain issues (many of which are elderly) than I have. I couldn't imagine living like that and can understand why they wouldn't want to wait for a natural death.

Oh yes, I have lived in chronic pain as long as I can remember. It sucks. Now that I have a diagnosis/prognosis/treatment plan I feel stuck because I'm also 9 months pregnant, lol. Gotta wait until the kid is born, then recovery, then treatment for my pain.

When I say "natural death" I don't mean making people live until they die naturally..I believe no one should have to live who doesn't want to. What I mean by "natural death" is not prolonging life for the sake of quantity. If I'm 80 years old with stage 4 cancer, why would I do chemo? Just let me have the last few weeks/months of quality life.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2013, 08:08:14 AM »
I do not fear death - I have accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of life.

Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.

What a horrible idea.  Life has meaning because it's finite.  I don't want to live forever.

Not disagreeing with you, but how long of a life would you say life becomes optimal?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question, that's a personal decision that's dependant on many factors.

arebelspy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2013, 08:41:51 AM »
I do not fear death - I have accepted it as a natural and unavoidable part of life.

Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.

What a horrible idea.  Life has meaning because it's finite.  I don't want to live forever.

Not disagreeing with you, but how long of a life would you say life becomes optimal?

I don't think there's an easy answer to that question, that's a personal decision that's dependant on many factors.

Can you generalize, or try and answer for yourself or the average person you know?

40 years?  60?  80? 100?  150?

I guess my point is .. if life span used to be shorter, and is now longer, and you're okay with that, it seems like you'd be okay with it being even longer.  Unless, by some happy coincidence, you think now (85ish years) is the perfect amount of time, or perhaps too long.

I agree with your point that it should be finite, but how finite?  At what point is it too long?  1000 years?  More?  Less?

It's an interesting philosophical question.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 08:43:29 AM by arebelspy »
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GuitarStv

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2013, 10:59:59 AM »
I think that the entire ageing process is important.  Attempting to freeze yourself into a single part of that natural rhythm, or remove yourself entirely is simply not appealing to me.  Personally, I figure that about 70 - 80 years is plenty for me.

arebelspy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2013, 11:07:20 AM »
I think that the entire ageing process is important.  Attempting to freeze yourself into a single part of that natural rhythm, or remove yourself entirely is simply not appealing to me.  Personally, I figure that about 70 - 80 years is plenty for me.

I don't disagree with you, but I also don't find it surprising that the current lifespan happens to coincide with what you think.  It's quite convenient.
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tmac

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2013, 11:22:30 AM »
My grandmother and I had several conversations about this over the years. When she was 70, she told me that 80 was enough. She even wrote her autobiography, titling it "The First 80 Years" as a joke. Then she was 80 and things were OK, so she stuck it out. Then she hit 90, and said, yeah, that's too much.

The only reason she waited until she was 94 is that she felt that her grandchildren needed her, which was true. We had some troubled kids in my generation to be sure. Once everyone had extricated themselves from their bad situations (thanks in part to her wise advice and shoulder to cry on), she headed on out.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2013, 09:58:10 PM »
Still, I cannot help but hope that at some point in the next few decades, they figure out a way to keep our brains alive indefinitely and put them in robot bodies.  That'd be pretty awesome.
Only if I get true high-speed bandwidth.  And a warranty and a really, really good backup service.

Reminds me of a Richard K. Morgan novel...

GuitarStv

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2013, 06:44:45 AM »
I think that the entire ageing process is important.  Attempting to freeze yourself into a single part of that natural rhythm, or remove yourself entirely is simply not appealing to me.  Personally, I figure that about 70 - 80 years is plenty for me.

I don't disagree with you, but I also don't find it surprising that the current lifespan happens to coincide with what you think.  It's quite convenient.


It's not just the current lifespan.  It's around the average lifespan that people throughout history who have led comfortable lives have made it to.

Average life expectancy of aristocracy who survived early childhood:
1200-1300 C.E.: age 64
1400-1500 C.E.: age 69
1500-1550 C.E.: age 71

As a matter of fact, if you remove infant mortality from the average here in Canada your typical person lives to be well over 80.

Either way, it's not going to matter much to me.  There are severe congenital heart problems that run on both sides of my family among the men, and few of them have lived past 50.

arebelspy

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2013, 07:20:27 AM »
64->69->71->76 certainly seems like an upward trend to me, but regardless, replace my "current" with "average lifespan that people throughout history who have lead comfortable lives have made it to" and my point remains the same.

If the average person throughout history had lived to 250, and it was now 280, I think you'd be saying 280 instead of 80.

Do you follow me?  And see what that means to a "good" length of life?
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GuitarStv

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2013, 07:45:46 AM »
64->69->71->76 certainly seems like an upward trend to me, but regardless, replace my "current" with "average lifespan that people throughout history who have lead comfortable lives have made it to" and my point remains the same.

If the average person throughout history had lived to 250, and it was now 280, I think you'd be saying 280 instead of 80.

Do you follow me?  And see what that means to a "good" length of life?

Yes, I follow what you're saying.  I just don't agree with the conclusions you're drawing.  Your whole premise appears to be that I think that 70-80 years is a reasonable length of time to live because it's close to the average life expectancy at the moment.

Your premise is wrong though.  If you take out those who die from freak accidents and infant death, the average person lives much more than 80 years right now.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 08:02:16 AM by GuitarStv »

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2013, 08:01:37 AM »
64->69->71->76 certainly seems like an upward trend to me, but regardless, replace my "current" with "average lifespan that people throughout history who have lead comfortable lives have made it to" and my point remains the same.

If the average person throughout history had lived to 250, and it was now 280, I think you'd be saying 280 instead of 80.

Do you follow me?  And see what that means to a "good" length of life?
It might be an upward trend, but it still has more to do with causes of death (mainly disease, and a decreasing mortality therefrom) than any real increases in lifespan. That is, the maximum single lifespans (rather than average maximum) seen in any given generation seem to have been just about constant, whenever there are written records to attest to such things. Octogenarian cancer-sufferers who chose to euthanasise themselves by starvation were common enough in ancient Rome that when they aren't reported as awesome, freakish cases. We just now have a much higher chance of 'maxing out'. This is actually a digression from the main point, however.

I cannot answer it, though. The ideal length of a life isn't something I (or, probably you) have enough life experience to determine. I've only been around a quarter-century, and more than once already I've decided I had had enough. Perhaps do a survey of octogenarians--you'd need to chose healthy ones, because those suffering from illness might welcome a release-- and ask them if they thought they'd lived enough yet. If they say "no," well, that goes to show that the optimal lifespan (if you stay healthy) could be longer. If they say "yes," would you tell them they're only answering that way because of historical norms?
Is the teen suicide who decides his optimal lifespan is "as short as possible" allowed a vote?
I don't think it is something anyone can tell anyone else. If you have the means to live to 260, or 280 (which I find massively unlikely) and the will to do so, more power to you! Just don't expect everyone else to join you in your second century.

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Re: Old Age/Afraid of Dying
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2013, 08:07:04 AM »
For our own life expectancy & healthcare costs, I think it is one of those we-can't-know-for-certain topics.

My view: I am not looking forward to death, but I do accept it as an integral part of human life.  So not a huge fear.  Health care costs, hoping for an end-of-life scenario more similar to 3 of 4 grandparents and my mother (pretty healthy lives, short final illnesses - ages at death ranged from 65 to 102), and less similar to my maternal grandfather (stroke at 88, 8 years of mostly-out-of-it nursing home care - with daily family visits & $ weren't an issue but still not what I'd call ideal...). 

Wondering if I can pretend it's more like the year 1900 medical world and focus on simple quality of life and avoid high intervention stuff...basically think slightly more palliative, less life-extension-at-any-quality.  But those are hard things to predict and/or set up rules to work if I am unable to share my views.  I'm not completely anti health-care, just a skeptic.  For example, if I am healthy, active 87yo with no prescrips & no chronic health conditions, would I have an elective hip replacement to regain full mobility?  My FIL did and it has worked great. 

Lots of conversations with lots of family members can help everyone understand (or at least know & possibly accept) each others wishes and help prepare for health crises.

From a $ perspective, it may be kind of self-correcting...either I'm healthy and there's no extra cost, or I'm not healthy and if the costs outstrip my resources - hey, if I'm that sick will I even notice my bank balance?

Random ancient life expectancy insight, from Psalms 90:10 "We live at best to be seventy years old, maybe eighty, if we're strong." (Common English Bible).  Plenty of paleo diet folks have opined about ancient life expectancy...