Author Topic: Old age care  (Read 18734 times)

NewPerspective

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Old age care
« on: February 19, 2018, 02:51:43 PM »
Hello!


Long (long!) time lurker, very occasional poster here.   Love reading the forum, I continue to learn so much from everyone here.

here is my question- what, in general, do you plan to do about old age care?  This is something that worries me a lot and will likely prevent me from retiring super early.   (I don't know that I will ever feel like we have enough money considering the cost of elder care.  In my mind, money = choices.  I hope to have choices when/if I'm in a vulnerable position in life). 

In reading the case studies I don't often see mention of elderly care so just wondering what people's plans are (aside from suicide, I see people mention that a lot but I don't think that is anything I would consider).

Just for background, I'm 41, husband is 45 and we have no kids (I'm an only child, so no big family to take care of me when I'm old either).

Thanks!





wenchsenior

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 03:09:04 PM »
Hello!


Long (long!) time lurker, very occasional poster here.   Love reading the forum, I continue to learn so much from everyone here.

here is my question- what, in general, do you plan to do about old age care?  This is something that worries me a lot and will likely prevent me from retiring super early.   (I don't know that I will ever feel like we have enough money considering the cost of elder care.  In my mind, money = choices.  I hope to have choices when/if I'm in a vulnerable position in life). 

In reading the case studies I don't often see mention of elderly care so just wondering what people's plans are (aside from suicide, I see people mention that a lot but I don't think that is anything I would consider).

Just for background, I'm 41, husband is 45 and we have no kids (I'm an only child, so no big family to take care of me when I'm old either).

Thanks!

I think a lot of the younger people on this board discount health care/LTC costs somewhat in their plans.  That's natural...I didn't grapple with it until my 40s, when I began experiencing increasing health problems at the same time as several grandparents/my families were struggling with LTC.  It was incredibly stressful and damaging to relationships and dynamics on both sides of the family, even though one side was dirt poor and the other side had plenty of assets.  Relationships broke down over $ spent, unequal caregiving and responsibility among various family members, aging family members who refused to go into care when it was unsafe to live alone, and finally one grandparent who had a LONG miserable decline in a nursing home.

Bottom line is, unless you die quick, none of the solutions are very pleasant. 

Personally, DH and I have no kids.  He is not in contact much with his family and has no relationship with his nieces and nephews, and I don't have any nieces and nephews (sisters don't have kids either).  So we don't have any younger family members to lean on (though given how ugly the fallout has been in my family when older generation DID lean on the younger generation, I would not want that to be my main fall back option even if we had kids of our own).

We bought a reasonable LTC policy for my husband (who is older and the higher earner). I was deemed un-insurable (at least by that company, and they do share info with each other) and I suspect I will remain so because of multiple health conditions.  So I am planning to continue working as long as needed to save an additional 200-250K on top of our FI stash. 

We will likely look into moving into a continuing care community type facility when the time comes, if that is feasible.

Quite a few of our friends are in similar positions, with either 1 child or none.  I really think you have to plan to take care of yourself, and that means saving more money, unfortunately.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 03:27:16 PM by wenchsenior »

Yankuba

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2018, 03:18:23 PM »
There are some threads on long term care insurance. I think there was even one a couple of days ago.

rosarugosa

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 03:27:35 PM »
I'm just starting to give this a hard look as we begin dealing with our parents' issues.  I don't have much in the way of answers yet, unfortunately.

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 04:12:20 PM »
Hello!


Long (long!) time lurker, very occasional poster here.   Love reading the forum, I continue to learn so much from everyone here.

here is my question- what, in general, do you plan to do about old age care?  This is something that worries me a lot and will likely prevent me from retiring super early.   (I don't know that I will ever feel like we have enough money considering the cost of elder care.  In my mind, money = choices.  I hope to have choices when/if I'm in a vulnerable position in life). 

In reading the case studies I don't often see mention of elderly care so just wondering what people's plans are (aside from suicide, I see people mention that a lot but I don't think that is anything I would consider).

Just for background, I'm 41, husband is 45 and we have no kids (I'm an only child, so no big family to take care of me when I'm old either).

Thanks!

I think a lot of the younger people on this board discount health care/LTC costs somewhat in their plans.  That's natural...I didn't grapple with it until my 40s, when I began experiencing increasing health problems at the same time as several grandparents/my families were struggling with LTC.  It was incredibly stressful and damaging to relationships and dynamics on both sides of the family, even though one side was dirt poor and the other side had plenty of assets.  Relationships broke down over $ spent, unequal caregiving and responsibility among various family members, aging family members who refused to go into care when it was unsafe to live alone, and finally one grandparent who had a LONG miserable decline in a nursing home.

Bottom line is, unless you die quick, none of the solutions are very pleasant. 

Personally, DH and I have no kids.  He is not in contact much with his family and has no relationship with his nieces and nephews, and I don't have any nieces and nephews (sisters don't have kids either).  So we don't have any younger family members to lean on (though given how ugly the fallout has been in my family when older generation DID lean on the younger generation, I would not want that to be my main fall back option even if we had kids of our own).

We bought a reasonable LTC policy for my husband (who is older and the higher earner). I was deemed un-insurable (at least by that company, and they do share info with each other) and I suspect I will remain so because of multiple health conditions.  So I am planning to continue working as long as needed to save an additional 200-250K on top of our FI stash. 

We will likely look into moving into a continuing care community type facility when the time comes, if that is feasible.

Quite a few of our friends are in similar positions, with either 1 child or none.  I really think you have to plan to take care of yourself, and that means saving more money, unfortunately.

Thanks for your feedback!

I really like the idea of one of those retirement communities that offer different levels of care, from totally independent and on up.  My "plan" would be to move there while still young enough to take advantage of amenities and to make friends.  I don't have a good idea of how much something like this would cost.  I understand you often need a large lump sum (like from the sale of a house) and then there is a monthly fee.  I don't know how much that monthly fee is though and I'm thinking this would be about 30 years away so who knows how much it would cost then.

As you mentioned there do seem be a lot of people that will find themselves in this situation.  So maybe that will mean there will be better or more options to come.

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 04:18:36 PM »
There are some threads on long term care insurance. I think there was even one a couple of days ago.

Thanks. I need to learn more about what LTC insurance covers exactly.  I don't know anything about it, it is probably time to learn!

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 04:20:24 PM »
I'm just starting to give this a hard look as we begin dealing with our parents' issues.  I don't have much in the way of answers yet, unfortunately.

This is something I've always thought about (too much probably) but my grandmother passed away at the age of 98 last year.  She was in good health until about the last year.  She lived with my mom for the last 20 years and it worked out pretty well (she died at home).  It def made me think about what would happen to me.

PBandJelli

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 04:42:38 PM »
This is what keeps me up at night, and something that I've spent a great deal of time on over the last couple of years due to an aging and sick parent that recently passed.

Here's what I've learned, and this is on the pricier end of options:

You can move into an independent living facility that has levels of care all the way through nursing and hospice.  You start in your own apartment, driving, biking, and doing your own thing, there is a cafeteria on site, or you can make your own food in the kitchen, and eventually wind up fully in the care of those in the "community". There are two pricing models for this, and the first is the most expensive model but gives you lots of comfort: you buy in at a chunk of money (like 350k up front) and then pay a monthly fee that never changes regardless of levels of care or inflation.  If you die within a certain period of time (usually one year), some small portion of your up front payment will return to your estate.  These models also include poverty clauses, so if you go broke the community won't kick you out.  To qualify, of course, you go through a health and financial assessment.

The second option works a lot like apartments.  You sign an annual contract and then pay month-to-month.  Fees change depending on service, and you expect costs to increase annually and those increases reflect the cost of inflation and rising medical care costs.

If you become very sick (prognosis is life is less than six months, and you elect to not pursue treatment), hospice is covered under medicare.  In this case, you probably want to be at an inpatient facility.  Florida is amazing about this - lots of options. 

Unrelated: those hospice nurses and orderlies deserve everything good in this world. 

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 04:48:09 PM »
This is what keeps me up at night, and something that I've spent a great deal of time on over the last couple of years due to an aging and sick parent that recently passed.

Here's what I've learned, and this is on the pricier end of options:

You can move into an independent living facility that has levels of care all the way through nursing and hospice.  You start in your own apartment, driving, biking, and doing your own thing, there is a cafeteria on site, or you can make your own food in the kitchen, and eventually wind up fully in the care of those in the "community". There are two pricing models for this, and the first is the most expensive model but gives you lots of comfort: you buy in at a chunk of money (like 350k up front) and then pay a monthly fee that never changes regardless of levels of care or inflation.  If you die within a certain period of time (usually one year), some small portion of your up front payment will return to your estate.  These models also include poverty clauses, so if you go broke the community won't kick you out.  To qualify, of course, you go through a health and financial assessment.

The second option works a lot like apartments.  You sign an annual contract and then pay month-to-month.  Fees change depending on service, and you expect costs to increase annually and those increases reflect the cost of inflation and rising medical care costs.

If you become very sick (prognosis is life is less than six months, and you elect to not pursue treatment), hospice is covered under medicare.  In this case, you probably want to be at an inpatient facility.  Florida is amazing about this - lots of options. 

Unrelated: those hospice nurses and orderlies deserve everything good in this world.

Thank you!!!  I like the first option you mentioned (and that is the one I've heard about).  Do you have any idea what the monthly cost is?

My grandmother had at home hospice care the last six months or so.  She was totally with it up until the very end (we were even talking politics the day before she died) and she really enjoyed the visits by the nurse each week.  There was something very comforting in that to me.  I think if she had of lived in a nursing home or assisted environment she would have been just as happy or maybe even happier.  I think the key is moving into that type of environment when you are younger though.  She would have HATED it if she had to live in there at the end.  But the fact that she really enjoyed the company of her care takers struck me.  She was happy to see them and it seemed to make her happy.

Padonak

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 04:49:09 PM »
following

PBandJelli

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 05:04:33 PM »
Hi- On your question regarding prices of the options I mention:

The month-to-month style apartments depend on which apartment you choose and your "level of care".  The baseline is the apartment, some number of meals (like breakfast, lunch, and dinner 6 days a week), housekeeping and laundry a few times a week, and a nurse that calls you to remind you to take meds, plus participating in any activities.  The place I found for my father is in Florida and that service cost about 5500 a month as of three months ago.  That place was state-of-the art.  We aren't talking about 60 minutes nursing homes.  This is the Cadillac, not the Honda.  The Honda is also very nice, but to get my father to agree I had to dangle a gilded carrot.  The risk is the costs increase each year, but those costs historically (for the places I looked) were around 2-5% per year.

The buy-in up front for my in-laws who have the other model was 400k up front.  They moved in about four or five years ago.  They've paid 4k each month since then.  Now, my father in law is in a nursing home apartment in the community, and my mother-in-law still bikes every day and has her own one bedroom apartment (previously she had a 2 bdr).  Their costs will never go up.  This is also a Cadillac facility with every beautiful option.

If you PM me, I can give you the names of the facilities so you can poke around online and see what they're like.

:)

PBandJelli

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 05:06:16 PM »
Also- remember supply and demand when you're planning your last years.  As one might expect, pricing is better where there is lots of competition.  And because demand is consistently high in Florida, you get the range of high quality options that I will want in my later years.

damnedbee

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 02:34:12 PM »
This is the piece of my FIRE plan that I bury my head in sand about. My general plan is to overshoot my FI number by about $200,000 to self-insure against eventual decline or the need for short-term nursing care. I don't expect to have dependents, so I'm being sure to get really close to my nieces.

Ideally, I'd like some sort of private group home with a few roommates (think Golden Girls) supplemented with part-time assistance as needed. If things get really, really bad, my "plan" is to take a bunch of meds, have some margs, and walk into the ocean. If I get to the point where I need 24/7 care, that's probably not a life I'd enjoy living.

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 08:13:27 PM »
This is what keeps me up at night, and something that I've spent a great deal of time on over the last couple of years due to an aging and sick parent that recently passed.

Here's what I've learned, and this is on the pricier end of options:

You can move into an independent living facility that has levels of care all the way through nursing and hospice.  You start in your own apartment, driving, biking, and doing your own thing, there is a cafeteria on site, or you can make your own food in the kitchen, and eventually wind up fully in the care of those in the "community". There are two pricing models for this, and the first is the most expensive model but gives you lots of comfort: you buy in at a chunk of money (like 350k up front) and then pay a monthly fee that never changes regardless of levels of care or inflation.  If you die within a certain period of time (usually one year), some small portion of your up front payment will return to your estate.  These models also include poverty clauses, so if you go broke the community won't kick you out.  To qualify, of course, you go through a health and financial assessment.

The second option works a lot like apartments.  You sign an annual contract and then pay month-to-month.  Fees change depending on service, and you expect costs to increase annually and those increases reflect the cost of inflation and rising medical care costs.

If you become very sick (prognosis is life is less than six months, and you elect to not pursue treatment), hospice is covered under medicare.  In this case, you probably want to be at an inpatient facility.  Florida is amazing about this - lots of options. 

Unrelated: those hospice nurses and orderlies deserve everything good in this world.

See, I don't find the hospice services all that helpful.  Maybe if my mother were still being cared for at home, or my father had been on it longer than a week, I'd feel differently.  I mean, they were nice, but really didn't provide enough time with them to make that much of a difference.  It hasn't seemed to save my mom any money at all for nursing home services, but it does help a bit so that she doesn't get overlooked in the large nursing home population.

Bateaux

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2018, 08:35:15 PM »
I adjusted my FIRE goal total based on health care and elder care.  I hope it's enough.

FIRE total needed 2.5 Million

Amount for daily living.  1.5 Million @ 3% withdrawal rate. 

Amount for healthcare.  500k

Amount for elder care.   500k

I'm leaning towards a 3 million dollar total Fire number.  50% daily expenses and 50% for health/elder care.

boarder42

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2018, 07:09:23 AM »
I adjusted my FIRE goal total based on health care and elder care.  I hope it's enough.

FIRE total needed 2.5 Million

Amount for daily living.  1.5 Million @ 3% withdrawal rate. 

Amount for healthcare.  500k

Amount for elder care.   500k

I'm leaning towards a 3 million dollar total Fire number.  50% daily expenses and 50% for health/elder care.

how old are you b/c this its isnt even boarderline conservative its insanely conservative. you have a 3% SWR - this makes money grow to the sky - then you have an extra 1.5MM dollars just sitting around making you more money - you're going to die with 10's of Millions of dollars.

OP i'm not sure your age but the younger you FIRE the less of a concern this is - WHY?

b/c you have tons of safety nets and time prior to reaching any of these needs -
1st if you FIRE at a 4% SWR more than 50% of the time your money grows to ridiculous amounts - you'll know in the first 4-5 years if you're going to be in the insane amount of money boat typically or if you need to cut back or get a new job.

2nd healthcare rising as it is - its not sustainable - technology and new ways to acquire care with out insurance are advancing quickly

3rd medicare and medicaid are things albeit last resorts but 1 and 2 will likely save you before any insurance or insanely over saving and way over working your life will. 

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2018, 07:41:20 AM »
I don't have any specific plans for old age care yet. But I think the best thing to remember that although there is the doomsday scenario for old age care and we all probably know someone who gets sick when they're old, it's best to remember that that is the exception. Best thing to do within your circle of influence is to live as healthily now as you are able.

I think one of the most important issues is writing down your end of life plans (you know, death panels) for basically any age. Your family can end up screwing you around towards the end, but at least they'll know what you would have wanted when you were in sound mind.

As it stands right now,ignoring any better future technology or alien intervention, by the time I get old the world climate is probably going to suck bad enough that old age care is something that I wont have to plan for. Because we wont live that long. No, seriously.

wenchsenior

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2018, 08:28:04 AM »
I don't have any specific plans for old age care yet. But I think the best thing to remember that although there is the doomsday scenario for old age care and we all probably know someone who gets sick when they're old, it's best to remember that that is the exception. Best thing to do within your circle of influence is to live as healthily now as you are able.

I think one of the most important issues is writing down your end of life plans (you know, death panels) for basically any age. Your family can end up screwing you around towards the end, but at least they'll know what you would have wanted when you were in sound mind.

As it stands right now,ignoring any better future technology or alien intervention, by the time I get old the world climate is probably going to suck bad enough that old age care is something that I wont have to plan for. Because we wont live that long. No, seriously.

Huh.  I wonder if this is as rare as you are implying.  One of my grandparents died young.  All of the other three required extensive and long end of life care, in two cases lasting for more than 5 years.  Granted, that was two generations ago.  Three generations ago, the men tended to die in their 60s or 70s, usually cared for by their wives until near the very end.  But the wives  required extensive and long end of life care in all cases, longer than 1 year.  This is just my anecdotal experience within my own family.  Projecting forward into my parents generation, it's hard to guess, and harder still for my generation.

But I suspect statistics might be skewed by gender.  Women tend to live a lot longer, and I'll bet they make up the majority of the LTC population then and now, and are far more likely to need to plan for it.  Single men, perhaps, not so much.

Also, I'm sardonically amused to see that someone on the board actually has a more pessimistic outlook on climate change than I do.

Mezzie

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2018, 08:31:24 AM »
My grandmother recently moved into one of those apartments and loves it. Her payment is the month-to-month type.

I'd like to stay in my home as long as possible, and I hope that selling my house will cover the end-of-life care costs as needed. Ideally one of my grand-nieces or nephews or cousins will be willing to be roommates for a bit in exchange for inheriting the house, but that assumes that I'll be in relatively good health until the end or can afford in-home nursing. It would be nice for all these mortgage payments to benefit the next generation in some way.

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2018, 08:54:29 AM »
My grandmother lived with my mom for the last 20 years or so.  She was 98 when she passed away.  She was bed ridden for about the last month of her life.  While she was mentally and physically pretty fit, I would say that she would have needed some kind of assistance for the last 3-4 years of her life for sure.  I don't think she could have safely lived alone (she fell a few times over the years, while she never broke any bones, it wouldn't have been good if she lived alone).

Aside from the physical needs I may have, I also like the idea of having some sense of  community that might come built in with a retirement community environment.

I appreciate all of the feedback you guys have given.  It sounds like the best path for us is to save as much as we can in order to feel secure.  We aren't mustachian by most standards but we do better than average with saving.   Our house is paid for and we don't have any debt at all.  We have about 1.4 million in taxable and pre tax accounts now.   With that said, I don't see us retiring anytime soon.  I love the idea of quitting in the next five years but I just don't think I would feel comfortable.

boarder42

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2018, 09:03:43 AM »
My grandmother lived with my mom for the last 20 years or so.  She was 98 when she passed away.  She was bed ridden for about the last month of her life.  While she was mentally and physically pretty fit, I would say that she would have needed some kind of assistance for the last 3-4 years of her life for sure.  I don't think she could have safely lived alone (she fell a few times over the years, while she never broke any bones, it wouldn't have been good if she lived alone).

Aside from the physical needs I may have, I also like the idea of having some sense of  community that might come built in with a retirement community environment.

I appreciate all of the feedback you guys have given.  It sounds like the best path for us is to save as much as we can in order to feel secure.  We aren't mustachian by most standards but we do better than average with saving.   Our house is paid for and we don't have any debt at all.  We have about 1.4 million in taxable and pre tax accounts now.   With that said, I don't see us retiring anytime soon.  I love the idea of quitting in the next five years but I just don't think I would feel comfortable.

you just need to determine what you spend.  1.4MM is a ton of money with no mortgage.  56k in spending annually - and it should grow at around 7% a year while you're still putting money away.  in 5 years its 2MM -

by the sounds of it you're probably older - meaning every year you delay FIRE your odds of dying go up dramatically - more dramatically than your odds of running out of money. @Retire-Canada has a good take on this.

bluebelle

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2018, 09:10:13 AM »
The thing that terrifies me about getting older is the cognitive decline rather than the physical.   I'm talking about the natural decline in cognitive abilities, not the impact of dementia or Alzheimer’s.  My mother is 96, and 'with it' for a 96 year old, but I've seen a natural decline in her ability to manage her affairs.   She couldn't look after her taxes for example. 
I worry about who will look after that portion of my life as I age (no children, not super close to nieces and nephew).  I fear it will be easy to rip me off.  Heck, if children steal from their parents, it's hard to not assume that paid-for services won't.  That's what keeps me up at night.
I know I'm starting from a higher point (I love my mother dearly, but to be honest, Dad was the brains of the operation), but I know that many studies have shown that it is easier for scammers to prey on the elderly, that they can be more trusting.
That's what keeps me up at night.....I know I'll have enough to buy the physical care I need, it's the emotional/intellectual support I'm worried about.

wenchsenior

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 10:34:25 AM »
accolay's supposition (above) that the need for some kind of notable continuing care in old age is the exception rather than the rule did not sound right to me, so I started googling. 

Statistics were sobering, and all the pages I came up with on a quick search had numbers roughly in agreement.

Approximately 65-70% of ALL people who reach age 65 will suffer some sort of functional disablement and thus require some form of long term care.  Statistics show about 35-45% of people have historically gone into nursing homes, with the rest presumably cared for at home by staff or family.  Average time in nursing home is reported to be ~2.5-3 years (not sure of median).

Personal side note: I will speculate that the percentage being cared for by family at home is going to decrease going forward by necessity as number of children per family continues to drop, but that is just a guess. Could be biased by the incredible drop-off in number of children per generation over the last 3 generations in my own family and my husband's family, the relative lack of increase in financial and location stability of the younger generation compared with the older, and the current requirement that both members of a couple work rather than one being available for full time parenting and later elder care-giving.

Of those people in nursing homes, most cannot afford private care payments or long term care insurance, thus ~70% of them have care covered by (mostly) Medicaid  and (if stay is very short after  hospitalization) Medicare.

Personal side note: GOP pressure to cut Medicaid funding is currently intense, and is liable to become more intense as the budget deficit increases, so personally I would not count on Medicaid being available to fund as much LTC in the future as it is now.  Pressure to cut Medicare will also likely ramp up over the next 20 years.

Ugh...those are some ugly numbers.

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 11:21:33 AM »
The thing that terrifies me about getting older is the cognitive decline rather than the physical.   I'm talking about the natural decline in cognitive abilities, not the impact of dementia or Alzheimer’s.  My mother is 96, and 'with it' for a 96 year old, but I've seen a natural decline in her ability to manage her affairs.   She couldn't look after her taxes for example. 
I worry about who will look after that portion of my life as I age (no children, not super close to nieces and nephew).  I fear it will be easy to rip me off.  Heck, if children steal from their parents, it's hard to not assume that paid-for services won't.  That's what keeps me up at night.
I know I'm starting from a higher point (I love my mother dearly, but to be honest, Dad was the brains of the operation), but I know that many studies have shown that it is easier for scammers to prey on the elderly, that they can be more trusting.
That's what keeps me up at night.....I know I'll have enough to buy the physical care I need, it's the emotional/intellectual support I'm worried about.

I just read a really interesting book called the Alzheimer's Solution but Drs. Sherzai.  I found it very motivational. They address the cognitive issues that commonly go along with aging (not just Alzheimers).  I also worry about being vulnerable to scammers.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 11:31:27 AM by NewPerspective »

NewPerspective

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 11:29:39 AM »
Personal side note: I will speculate that the percentage being cared for by family at home is going to decrease going forward by necessity as number of children per family continues to drop, but that is just a guess. Could be biased by the incredible drop-off in number of children per generation over the last 3 generations in my own family and my husband's family, the relative lack of increase in financial and location stability of the younger generation compared with the older, and the current requirement that both members of a couple work rather than one being available for full time parenting and later elder care-giving.

Of those people in nursing homes, most cannot afford private care payments or long term care insurance, thus ~70% of them have care covered by (mostly) Medicaid  and (if stay is very short after  hospitalization) Medicare.

Personal side note: GOP pressure to cut Medicaid funding is currently intense, and is liable to become more intense as the budget deficit increases, so personally I would not count on Medicaid being available to fund as much LTC in the future as it is now.  Pressure to cut Medicare will also likely ramp up over the next 20 years.

Ugh...those are some ugly numbers.

I agree with all of this.  It feels really important to me to have some options when I'm likely at my most vulnerable (due to physical or mental limitations).  Although I'm healthy and very health conscious, I feel like I need to plan on needing some kind of care.   Of course, as an only child with no children, I don't have family that I can plan to take care of me anyway. 

Someone mentioned 1.4 million being a lot of money, I don't know, it doesn't feel like a lot for some reason.  I'm 41 so not exactly old but not young either (although I like to think of being more on the young side rather than the old side.  :-) ) 

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 01:59:40 PM »
Approximately 65-70% of ALL people who reach age 65 will suffer some sort of functional disablement and thus require some form of long term care.  Statistics show about 35-45% of people have historically gone into nursing homes, with the rest presumably cared for at home by staff or family.  Average time in nursing home is reported to be ~2.5-3 years (not sure of median).

Whoa! Where are you finding your numbers? I'm pretty sure the actual number of nursing home population in the US is close to 5% and higher when you get closer to the centenarians. Unsure if the "functional disablement" you've found includes shorter stays for a major operation or injury such as in Transitional Care Units, Long Term Acute Care Hospitals or other skilled nursing facility. Unsure about assisted living facilities either, as those vary in scope.

But it doesn't really matter what we do. On the bright side, in 40 years everyone will be retired.... only to be reemployed in loosely conscripted militias to fight off the invading hoards from the flooded coastlines and uninhabitable equatorial regions. May I win the favor of The Lord Humungus.

Edit to add: I think we'll have Alzheimer's disease and dementia figured out by then. Only means more bodies for the resistance!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:03:04 PM by accolay »

wenchsenior

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 02:29:20 PM »
Approximately 65-70% of ALL people who reach age 65 will suffer some sort of functional disablement and thus require some form of long term care.  Statistics show about 35-45% of people have historically gone into nursing homes, with the rest presumably cared for at home by staff or family.  Average time in nursing home is reported to be ~2.5-3 years (not sure of median).

Whoa! Where are you finding your numbers? I'm pretty sure the actual number of nursing home population in the US is close to 5% and higher when you get closer to the centenarians. Unsure if the "functional disablement" you've found includes shorter stays for a major operation or injury such as in Transitional Care Units, Long Term Acute Care Hospitals or other skilled nursing facility. Unsure about assisted living facilities either, as those vary in scope.

But it doesn't really matter what we do. On the bright side, in 40 years everyone will be retired.... only to be reemployed in loosely conscripted militias to fight off the invading hoards from the flooded coastlines and uninhabitable equatorial regions. May I win the favor of The Lord Humungus.

Edit to add: I think we'll have Alzheimer's disease and dementia figured out by then. Only means more bodies for the resistance!

I essentially looked at the first 5 or 6 links that didn't look to be by insurers when I googled "Long Term Care statistics".  I picked out the stats that more or less agreed across all the pages I looked at.  Doesn't mean the stats are foolproof by any means, but I'm curious why they seem unbelievable to you?  My anecdotal experience on both sides of the family supports these stats, so I realize I am somewhat predisposed to believe them.  Do you have different statistics? Or is your anecdotal experience of nearly every old person you know living independently up to within weeks of death, then falling ill and quickly dying at home or in the hospital?   I'm not being snarky; I'm legit asking.  It might be that my family is very unusual, but given a lot of postings on this site on many threads like this one, I doubt it.

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 04:47:34 PM »
I essentially looked at the first 5 or 6 links that didn't look to be by insurers when I googled "Long Term Care statistics".  I picked out the stats that more or less agreed across all the pages I looked at.  Doesn't mean the stats are foolproof by any means, but I'm curious why they seem unbelievable to you?  My anecdotal experience on both sides of the family supports these stats, so I realize I am somewhat predisposed to believe them.  Do you have different statistics? Or is your anecdotal experience of nearly every old person you know living independently up to within weeks of death, then falling ill and quickly dying at home or in the hospital?   I'm not being snarky; I'm legit asking.  It might be that my family is very unusual, but given a lot of postings on this site on many threads like this one, I doubt it.

I'm not being snarky either, but I'm pretty sure the number I quote is correct. Honestly don't have time to look it up right now. I don't think that people all live within weeks of death without decline, unsure if hospice care/end of life care factors into the stats I got.

But I still stand by Humungus.

wenchsenior

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 05:08:18 PM »
I essentially looked at the first 5 or 6 links that didn't look to be by insurers when I googled "Long Term Care statistics".  I picked out the stats that more or less agreed across all the pages I looked at.  Doesn't mean the stats are foolproof by any means, but I'm curious why they seem unbelievable to you?  My anecdotal experience on both sides of the family supports these stats, so I realize I am somewhat predisposed to believe them.  Do you have different statistics? Or is your anecdotal experience of nearly every old person you know living independently up to within weeks of death, then falling ill and quickly dying at home or in the hospital?   I'm not being snarky; I'm legit asking.  It might be that my family is very unusual, but given a lot of postings on this site on many threads like this one, I doubt it.



I'm not being snarky either, but I'm pretty sure the number I quote is correct. Honestly don't have time to look it up right now. I don't think that people all live within weeks of death without decline, unsure if hospice care/end of life care factors into the stats I got.

But I still stand by Humungus.

Ok, possibly the confusion is that you seem to be quoting a flat percentage of current numbers actually IN a nursing home (taken from the all-ages current population).  Whereas, I was quoting a stat that indicates probability of needing some sort of long term care in the event one makes it to 65. So my percentage would indicate that, for those of us who plan to live that long and do so, somewhere between half and two-thirds of us will need some form of long term care. 

However, I dug around a bit more, and figured the AARP is probably a good source of info. Their numbers are slightly less alarming, though much larger than 5%.  They also match up more with what I vaguely remember from when I was researching LTC policies a few years ago.

AARP reports that, of people who reach age 65, 48% (43% of men, 53% of women) will require some form of LTC in their lifetime (because of illness and/or disablement that interferes with daily activity). Of these 27% will need care for 2 years or less; 12% will need care for 2-5 years; and 14% will require at least 5 years of care...numbers all slightly higher for women/lower for men...esp higher for women needing care longer than 5 years (18%)).

So, more manageable numbers, phew.  Still not exactly reassuring, but you can flip a coin 50/50 as to your rough odds, and then try to plan for how long you might need care.

ETA: AARP reports average nursing home cost as 92K/82K per year for private/shared room; assisted living 46K/year; home health aid at ~30 hours per week 31K/year. Median values might have been more informative, but there's the ballpark for financial planning.   
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 05:15:34 PM by wenchsenior »

EnjoyIt

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2018, 12:06:03 AM »
AARP reports that, of people who reach age 65, 48% (43% of men, 53% of women) will require some form of LTC in their lifetime (because of illness and/or disablement that interferes with daily activity). Of these 27% will need care for 2 years or less; 12% will need care for 2-5 years; and 14% will require at least 5 years of care...numbers all slightly higher for women/lower for men...esp higher for women needing care longer than 5 years (18%)).

So, more manageable numbers, phew.  Still not exactly reassuring, but you can flip a coin 50/50 as to your rough odds, and then try to plan for how long you might need care.

ETA: AARP reports average nursing home cost as 92K/82K per year for private/shared room; assisted living 46K/year; home health aid at ~30 hours per week 31K/year. Median values might have been more informative, but there's the ballpark for financial planning.

OP,
The above is where you do your research and your math. Knowing the facts makes the decision much more mathematical.   At some point in your life you will be collecting Social Security and by the time you need a nursing home you will basically be spending just about 100% of your finances there.  Just to keep math simple lets assume the nursing home costs $100k/yr and you will be receiving $20k/yr from social security.  You will now need to come up with $80k/yr. Lets also assume that you saved up $1 million dollars in your nest egg which you maintained right up until the point you needed a nursing home.  Based on the statistics from AARP if you end up in a nursing home you have a 27% chance of needing 2 years or less of care before you die.  That is worth $160k and you are left with $780k to give to your heirs.  You have a 12% chance of needing nursing home care for 2-5 years or $160k-$400k.  You still have plenty of money to cover those costs.  Lastly the horrific long long long term nursing home care.  Lets look at the math. 48% of people will requirer nursing home care and 14% of them will require care for more than 5 years.  That comes out to a 6.72% chance. Your $1 million will last you 12.5 years. Plus if you had a house prior to ending up in a nursing home just add in a few more years.  The odds of you being debilitated in a nursing home and surviving over a decade is a fraction of 1%. This is especially true if you were to have a DNR (No CPR and no breathing tube directive) in place.

If you are married then you have 2 social security funds to work with and the healthier spouse ends up taking care of the sicker one for a few years before ending up in a nursing home.

I hope this helps you work out the math a little better for yourself.  Personally we plan on retiring with a bit more than $1 million in savings and I have absolutely no worry about funding a nursing home. 

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2018, 02:08:06 AM »
ETA: AARP reports average nursing home cost as 92K/82K per year for private/shared room; assisted living 46K/year; home health aid at ~30 hours per week 31K/year. Median values might have been more informative, but there's the ballpark for financial planning.

That AARP pricing is pretty accurate for basic-level-of-care-run-of-the-mill nursing home at about $7-8k /month.

Anything cheaper and it will be a facility that provides a lower level of care. If they still provide a higher level of care at a cheaper price, you'd better do the smell test. The smell test is if you walk into a nursing home and it smells bad (usually a urineish odor) walk away and don't come back.

Evgenia

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2018, 11:16:28 AM »
That AARP pricing is pretty accurate for basic-level-of-care-run-of-the-mill nursing home at about $7-8k /month.
That's definitely correct pricing. I've visited a lot of rehab and assisted living centers in two states in the past few years, and anything that costs less is not a place you'd want to be.

This is an important thread, and a topic much on my mind. I managed my grandfather's care until his death in 2014, and moved my grandmother to California last year after a medical emergency. She is now in a very nice assisted living facility at just under $8k/month. I could write a book and that wouldn't be enough, but...

An important consideration is that *all* assisted living costs (including rent, meals - everything) are tax deductible as qualified medical expenses, in the current tax code. See IRS publication 502 for details. But, in brief, if you're admitted for a medical reason (vs. personal choice) or are chronically ill (an easy criteria for most elderly folks to hit), virtually all of your living expenses become a write off. This is also true for in-home care, and includes care provided by all sorts of caregivers, not just nurses.

My grandmother is as well positioned as can be (yes, I learned from her). At 87, she had a fulltime, high paying, college administration career in accounting and finance. She gets a pension of $70k/year, Social Security and minimum distributions, and still has about $500k in additional savings. She has Medicare and supplemental Blue Cross. And last year, her share of total medical expenses was over $76k. That's a heck of a drawdown rate without pension income continuing to appear.

My grandfather did not enter assisted living, but we did have a huge helping of home care. Getting that set up was interesting, because it was more cost effective (~$3-4k/month) and, I thought, higher quality in general. There seemed to be more competition: If you don't like one home care company, you can hire another, and do so more easily than you can switch facilities.

Both experiences have me in cold terror about aging in this country. I never thought I'd choose suicide upon one diagnosis or another but, after the past year, I absolutely will. Everyone is out to get elderly people's money, and the sheer scale and creativity around this industry (and it is an industry) is overwhelming and astonishing. Medicare fraud is rampant. Last year alone, I saved my grandmother at least $5k by fighting totally fraudulent bills and filing Medicare fraud complaints for companies, like physical therapy and rehab folks, who never showed. When I called to inquire, they blamed Grandma for forgetting...even though I was there waiting, too.

Stuff like this is constant, unending, and a total grind to stay on top of and monitor. Fraud IS the dominant elder care business model. If we had not already been FIRE, I would have had to quit my job just to manage and track everything, even though she's in the best facility there is. From the bills, to her taxes, to appointments, to actually getting her minimum distributions, is absolutely a part-time job every single week.

Financially, I have no idea what most of this country is going to do, after this generation of pension earners passes on, because the financial models of all of these facilities are pegged to pension income (per the director at Grandma's facility). Perhaps assume that folks sell houses worth over $1m to finance their care?

I have no answers, but $100k/year is a safe assumption and today's rates, and more in the future.

EnjoyIt

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2018, 12:50:01 PM »
That AARP pricing is pretty accurate for basic-level-of-care-run-of-the-mill nursing home at about $7-8k /month.
That's definitely correct pricing. I've visited a lot of rehab and assisted living centers in two states in the past few years, and anything that costs less is not a place you'd want to be.

This is an important thread, and a topic much on my mind. I managed my grandfather's care until his death in 2014, and moved my grandmother to California last year after a medical emergency. She is now in a very nice assisted living facility at just under $8k/month. I could write a book and that wouldn't be enough, but...

An important consideration is that *all* assisted living costs (including rent, meals - everything) are tax deductible as qualified medical expenses, in the current tax code. See IRS publication 502 for details. But, in brief, if you're admitted for a medical reason (vs. personal choice) or are chronically ill (an easy criteria for most elderly folks to hit), virtually all of your living expenses become a write off. This is also true for in-home care, and includes care provided by all sorts of caregivers, not just nurses.

My grandmother is as well positioned as can be (yes, I learned from her). At 87, she had a fulltime, high paying, college administration career in accounting and finance. She gets a pension of $70k/year, Social Security and minimum distributions, and still has about $500k in additional savings. She has Medicare and supplemental Blue Cross. And last year, her share of total medical expenses was over $76k. That's a heck of a drawdown rate without pension income continuing to appear.

My grandfather did not enter assisted living, but we did have a huge helping of home care. Getting that set up was interesting, because it was more cost effective (~$3-4k/month) and, I thought, higher quality in general. There seemed to be more competition: If you don't like one home care company, you can hire another, and do so more easily than you can switch facilities.

Both experiences have me in cold terror about aging in this country. I never thought I'd choose suicide upon one diagnosis or another but, after the past year, I absolutely will. Everyone is out to get elderly people's money, and the sheer scale and creativity around this industry (and it is an industry) is overwhelming and astonishing. Medicare fraud is rampant. Last year alone, I saved my grandmother at least $5k by fighting totally fraudulent bills and filing Medicare fraud complaints for companies, like physical therapy and rehab folks, who never showed. When I called to inquire, they blamed Grandma for forgetting...even though I was there waiting, too.

Stuff like this is constant, unending, and a total grind to stay on top of and monitor. Fraud IS the dominant elder care business model. If we had not already been FIRE, I would have had to quit my job just to manage and track everything, even though she's in the best facility there is. From the bills, to her taxes, to appointments, to actually getting her minimum distributions, is absolutely a part-time job every single week.

Financially, I have no idea what most of this country is going to do, after this generation of pension earners passes on, because the financial models of all of these facilities are pegged to pension income (per the director at Grandma's facility). Perhaps assume that folks sell houses worth over $1m to finance their care?

I have no answers, but $100k/year is a safe assumption and today's rates, and more in the future.

Thank you for sharing your experience.  It is extremely valuable.  May I ask, you said her share of medical expenses was $76k. is that above her pension and social security or did it come from there?  Outside of living expenses and supplemental health insurance was there anything else in that budget?

Also, I think you make a very good point about pensions.  People rarely have a pension these days.  Almost everyone will need to fund their own long term care from social security and savings. Since most of the US has almost no savings I suspect the following will have to occur.

1)  Those who have money will be forced to pay more.
2)  For those with little to no savings medicaid will have to pick up the slack and likely force changes onto the industry that may or may not help.

Personally I think what will help the most is educating our population on end of life care and medical directives.  It will decrease the cost of healthcare dramatically and decrease the nursing home population by their most expensive clients.  This will lead to more open beds/rooms which means increased supply with a lower demand.  Costs should go down.

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2018, 01:10:31 PM »
Going from my mom's experience,  I don't see how medical directives or end of life care would make that much of a difference in regards to time in a nursing home.  She's held on for years with congestive heart failure and chronic kidney disease, despite only taking modest medications. We chose not to do dialysis,  and still it's been years and she's still hanging on. Because I cared for her in her own home for so long, she only went into a nursing home a few months ago.
Oh, and a shared room at a mediocre facility in a LCOLA is running $9624/month + some outrageous pricing for meds. That pisses me off, as there weren't many places to go. The nicer and cheaper place is full.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2018, 01:41:06 PM »
Going from my mom's experience,  I don't see how medical directives or end of life care would make that much of a difference in regards to time in a nursing home.  She's held on for years with congestive heart failure and chronic kidney disease, despite only taking modest medications. We chose not to do dialysis,  and still it's been years and she's still hanging on. Because I cared for her in her own home for so long, she only went into a nursing home a few months ago.
Oh, and a shared room at a mediocre facility in a LCOLA is running $9624/month + some outrageous pricing for meds. That pisses me off, as there weren't many places to go. The nicer and cheaper place is full.

I think like with so many things, in the aggregate they can help, but they don't apply at the individual level.  You may or may not end up with a medical condition that requires a lot of care, and an advance directive may or may not help that.

However, reasonable discussions around mechanical ventilation and artificial hydration and nutrition at end of life certainly can keep some people from prolonged nursing home and skilled nursing facility stays near the end of life.  Same with the decision to place a pacemaker in someone with another terminal condition.  Advance directives can be especially helpful in dementia patients, who sometimes get heroic life saving medical care even if pre-dementia them would not have wanted it, and who are likely to have prolonged stays in nursing facilities.

For myself, my plans are to budget my withdrawal rate to accommodate capital preservation, and allocate the original capital to EOL care expenses.  This means a later FIRE date and a more conservative withdrawal rate, but we're also older and will only be stretching our assets an extra 15 to 20 years, not 30 or 40 like a very early retiree.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2018, 02:30:38 PM »
1st if you FIRE at a 4% SWR more than 50% of the time your money grows to ridiculous amounts - you'll know in the first 4-5 years if you're going to be in the insane amount of money boat typically or if you need to cut back or get a new job.

Boarder42, what's the test for this?

I've heard that you can usually detect a sequence of returns failure if you're at 50% of your initial portfolio value 10 years after retirement (from an interview with either Pfau or Kitces).

I'd love to have some kind of a yard stick to think about after 4-5 years though.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2018, 02:36:41 PM »
accolay's supposition (above) that the need for some kind of notable continuing care in old age is the exception rather than the rule did not sound right to me, so I started googling. 

Statistics were sobering, and all the pages I came up with on a quick search had numbers roughly in agreement.

Approximately 65-70% of ALL people who reach age 65 will suffer some sort of functional disablement and thus require some form of long term care.  Statistics show about 35-45% of people have historically gone into nursing homes, with the rest presumably cared for at home by staff or family.  Average time in nursing home is reported to be ~2.5-3 years (not sure of median).

Personal side note: I will speculate that the percentage being cared for by family at home is going to decrease going forward by necessity as number of children per family continues to drop, but that is just a guess. Could be biased by the incredible drop-off in number of children per generation over the last 3 generations in my own family and my husband's family, the relative lack of increase in financial and location stability of the younger generation compared with the older, and the current requirement that both members of a couple work rather than one being available for full time parenting and later elder care-giving.

Of those people in nursing homes, most cannot afford private care payments or long term care insurance, thus ~70% of them have care covered by (mostly) Medicaid  and (if stay is very short after  hospitalization) Medicare.

Personal side note: GOP pressure to cut Medicaid funding is currently intense, and is liable to become more intense as the budget deficit increases, so personally I would not count on Medicaid being available to fund as much LTC in the future as it is now.  Pressure to cut Medicare will also likely ramp up over the next 20 years.

Ugh...those are some ugly numbers.

Yep. Old Age Care expenses are super scary. Insurance companies are either pulling out of this type of insurance product or dramatically increasing rates because they dramatically underestimated costs.

A short podcast (Planet Money: The Indicator) on the subject.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/01/24/580432527/a-long-term-bet-gone-bust

From that link:

But recently, GE came out and said it was having an "adverse claims experience" with these policies. Basically, the company got the math wrong, and lost billions as a result.

This isn't just about GE. MetLife got out of this business and so has just about everybody else. They all said the same thing: we underestimated how much this was going to cost.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:41:24 PM by NorthernBlitz »

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2018, 03:24:26 PM »
I honestly don't understand why it costs so much for what you are getting.  You are not getting a personal attendant 24/7, not even close, but you are paying as if you are.  I did notice that there are number of social workers that don't do much but process paperwork, so maybe it's that.

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2018, 05:01:10 PM »
I honestly don't understand why it costs so much for what you are getting.  You are not getting a personal attendant 24/7, not even close, but you are paying as if you are.  I did notice that there are number of social workers that don't do much but process paperwork, so maybe it's that.

You're not even close to paying for a personal attendant at $7k. You're forgetting the cost of everything else.

If you do some quick calculations for 30 days including but not limited to:
basic room and board
medication
health care visits
cost of clean linen
daily janitorial services
Supplies

By and large the lion's share is the cost of care staffing 24/7/365. Even with the shitty pay it adds up. Don't forget the cost spread out for all the other background people including HR, the person who makes the schedule, the front desk secretary, security, maintenance people and costs, someone to do the accounting, social work, someone to make sure we're actually compliant with federal state and local laws concerning nursing homes, and on.  Even spread out over the large number of residents that $7k per month doesn't go very far. If you want better staff, you'll end up paying for it, just like in any other industry.

The idea to have a health care directive that states exactly what you want includes things most people wont ever think about. There are some heavy philosophical stuff you could get into, but I'll leave it.

Back to the topic at hand, the percentage of the population that enter a nursing home to live for the rest of their life (not for people who need care on an intermittent basis for accident, injury or rehab) is pretty small. You can't control everything despite how much money you save, so why worry? That's kinda the point of MMM anyway yes? Circle of influence? Enjoy your life while you have it. Otherwise forget MMM style retirement and head over to the Bogleheads forum for their just in case numbers.

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2018, 06:30:05 PM »
I honestly don't understand why it costs so much for what you are getting.  You are not getting a personal attendant 24/7, not even close, but you are paying as if you are.  I did notice that there are number of social workers that don't do much but process paperwork, so maybe it's that.

You're not even close to paying for a personal attendant at $7k. You're forgetting the cost of everything else.

If you do some quick calculations for 30 days including but not limited to:
basic room and board
medication
health care visits
cost of clean linen
daily janitorial services
Supplies

By and large the lion's share is the cost of care staffing 24/7/365. Even with the shitty pay it adds up. Don't forget the cost spread out for all the other background people including HR, the person who makes the schedule, the front desk secretary, security, maintenance people and costs, someone to do the accounting, social work, someone to make sure we're actually compliant with federal state and local laws concerning nursing homes, and on.  Even spread out over the large number of residents that $7k per month doesn't go very far. If you want better staff, you'll end up paying for it, just like in any other industry.

The idea to have a health care directive that states exactly what you want includes things most people wont ever think about. There are some heavy philosophical stuff you could get into, but I'll leave it.

Back to the topic at hand, the percentage of the population that enter a nursing home to live for the rest of their life (not for people who need care on an intermittent basis for accident, injury or rehab) is pretty small. You can't control everything despite how much money you save, so why worry? That's kinda the point of MMM anyway yes? Circle of influence? Enjoy your life while you have it. Otherwise forget MMM style retirement and head over to the Bogleheads forum for their just in case numbers.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen many arguments trying to justify the cost from the providers side. I want to see some value from the consumers side. The consumer is sharing an aid amongst 6 to 8 residents. I think it's closer to 6, but sometimes I wonder. That's your 24 hour care. The rest are fill ins.  Room and board should include linens/janitorial and food.  The cost of mefication is in addition to the cost of the home. When i was filling the scrpts for my mother, they ran <$200/month. Somehow, they jumped to over $1200 for the same scripts,  but actually one or 2 less.  I noticed a big ass blister that developed on one of her feet. That would be caused by improper care on their part. They charged  $435 to rub ointment on it and keep it wrapped it up.

So, let's compare this to a golden girls scenario,  having a shared in home aid. Shit, let's be generous and share 2 aids amongst 4 girls--that's twice as much attention as the nursing home, plus provides time for meal prep and cleaning services, while the other attends to various needs. Price it out,  and you get way better room and more dedicated service for the same price or less.  Maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed if the cost were closer to $7-8k like others have quoted here, and perhaps involved enough room in the room for more than 1 visitor at a time.  Like someone else mentioned, it all seems to be designed to draw out money as quickly as possible from the elderly.

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2018, 07:43:16 PM »
Staffing is the big expense.  Say you need one person available 24/7.  Normal working day of 8 hours is 3 people.  But normal working week is only 5 days and the week is 7 days, which is 21 shifts a week which is 4 and a bit people a week.  Then lets add in holidays and public days for those 4 and a bit people, and maybe some sick leave as well and you are getting up to needing 5 full time people in order to have one person available 24/7.

Now add in that for seriously ill or disabled people, which is mostly what you are talking about, and quite often any tasks relating to their personal care will need two people at the same time, for safety and proper care.  That's 10 full time people.

Even for in-home care, while you will probably not have someone on hand 24/7 (which brings with it certain limitations, including limitations on safety and amount of care available), proportionately you are still paying for the same 5 or 10 people to have one person permanently available.

And let's not forget that you need to find the people willing to provide the care.  It can be literally shitty work and a lot of people have other options.  The people who want to do the work or don't have other options may not be suitable.  If there is no-one suitable who is available or willing, or one of the ones who is suddenly stops coming, what then?



Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2018, 08:16:29 PM »
Staffing is the big expense.  Say you need one person available 24/7.  Normal working day of 8 hours is 3 people.  But normal working week is only 5 days and the week is 7 days, which is 21 shifts a week which is 4 and a bit people a week.  Then lets add in holidays and public days for those 4 and a bit people, and maybe some sick leave as well and you are getting up to needing 5 full time people in order to have one person available 24/7.

Now add in that for seriously ill or disabled people, which is mostly what you are talking about, and quite often any tasks relating to their personal care will need two people at the same time, for safety and proper care.  That's 10 full time people.

Even for in-home care, while you will probably not have someone on hand 24/7 (which brings with it certain limitations, including limitations on safety and amount of care available), proportionately you are still paying for the same 5 or 10 people to have one person permanently available.

And let's not forget that you need to find the people willing to provide the care.  It can be literally shitty work and a lot of people have other options.  The people who want to do the work or don't have other options may not be suitable.  If there is no-one suitable who is available or willing, or one of the ones who is suddenly stops coming, what then?
Oh, trust me--I've thought all about that.  I am familiar with someone who has that setup just for herself, for years now. The care is better, and cheaper than my mother's nursing home.
I'm not arguing about the difficulty that you could run into managing that sort of thing. I am arguing that the economies of scale should mean that a shared room in a large nursing home should be a better value in some way, but it is not.

Evgenia

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2018, 09:50:56 PM »
May I ask, you said her share of medical expenses was $76k. is that above her pension and social security or did it come from there?  Outside of living expenses and supplemental health insurance was there anything else in that budget?

Ask away! That $76k was largely covered by her pension and Social Security, which total about $70k/year. Required minimum distributions (RMDs) from her IRAs more than made up the rest, leaving her with about $18k. This is more than fine for now, obviously, but she's probably going to need more care, not less, and one week in the hospital cost more than that earlier this year.

If/when she requires the next level of assisted living care, which could happen any day, her costs will increase by nearly $2k/month. In that scenario she'd barely break even across all sources of income, RMDs included. Me and my unpaid labor are, of course, the reason she doesn't need next-level care yet (i.e. I do a lot of it myself).

I do not mean to be bleak, and realize everyone has their own value systems. But, I believe assisted dying will become much more common than it is today. My grandfather died in 2014, and my grandmother has hoped to die every day since. For four years, she's said "Maybe God will take me tonight" and so on. If she were not Catholic, I think she'd have followed him years ago. I have trouble, now, seeing what could be wrong with that, because her life is a living hell, frankly.

Dementia is misery at more levels than I ever could have conceived: You feel cold, but don't remember the word "cold," so you can't describe the feeling to anyone who might help you. And you don't realize the thing next to you is a blanket, or if you remember the word "blanket," that word does not in any way equate to "a thing I can pick up and put on myself to not feel the way I'm feeling." Likewise the heat dial. It really is like working with an infant, in that you can't expect any language or communication and have to sense and be attendant to all needs. And how many folks are really going to do that, you know?

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2018, 12:50:22 AM »
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen many arguments trying to justify the cost from the providers side. I want to see some value from the consumers side. The consumer is sharing an aid amongst 6 to 8 residents. I think it's closer to 6, but sometimes I wonder. That's your 24 hour care. The rest are fill ins.  Room and board should include linens/janitorial and food.  The cost of mefication is in addition to the cost of the home. When i was filling the scrpts for my mother, they ran <$200/month. Somehow, they jumped to over $1200 for the same scripts,  but actually one or 2 less.  I noticed a big ass blister that developed on one of her feet. That would be caused by improper care on their part. They charged  $435 to rub ointment on it and keep it wrapped it up.

So, let's compare this to a golden girls scenario,  having a shared in home aid. Shit, let's be generous and share 2 aids amongst 4 girls--that's twice as much attention as the nursing home, plus provides time for meal prep and cleaning services, while the other attends to various needs. Price it out,  and you get way better room and more dedicated service for the same price or less.  Maybe I wouldn't be so annoyed if the cost were closer to $7-8k like others have quoted here, and perhaps involved enough room in the room for more than 1 visitor at a time.  Like someone else mentioned, it all seems to be designed to draw out money as quickly as possible from the elderly.

I think this is naïve. First, I don't think your golden girls scenario has them incontinent every two hours. The reason the consumer is sharing an aide among 6-8 residents is because it keeps cost down for the consumer. Are these two aides in your scenario working 12 hour shifts around the clock? Who supervises them? Are the supervisors working for free? Who provides their insurance? Where is the supervising nurse? Etc.

As for the blister problem yes, it could be caused by not having her moved enough. Just because an employee can pass a background check and are willing to do the work doesn't mean they're always going to be the best employee and even good employees can have off days. If you have good people there, a lot of the time they'll move on to something that pays more or finish their education. It comes down to pay rates. You're not always going to find the best people working their ass off for $12.00/hr. Because in a real nursing home in order to do a good job you have to work your ass off day in and day out. If you haven't actually worked in a nursing home, then you can't possibly know what I'm talking about. No offence.

former player

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2018, 02:34:11 AM »
Staffing is the big expense.  Say you need one person available 24/7.  Normal working day of 8 hours is 3 people.  But normal working week is only 5 days and the week is 7 days, which is 21 shifts a week which is 4 and a bit people a week.  Then lets add in holidays and public days for those 4 and a bit people, and maybe some sick leave as well and you are getting up to needing 5 full time people in order to have one person available 24/7.

Now add in that for seriously ill or disabled people, which is mostly what you are talking about, and quite often any tasks relating to their personal care will need two people at the same time, for safety and proper care.  That's 10 full time people.

Even for in-home care, while you will probably not have someone on hand 24/7 (which brings with it certain limitations, including limitations on safety and amount of care available), proportionately you are still paying for the same 5 or 10 people to have one person permanently available.

And let's not forget that you need to find the people willing to provide the care.  It can be literally shitty work and a lot of people have other options.  The people who want to do the work or don't have other options may not be suitable.  If there is no-one suitable who is available or willing, or one of the ones who is suddenly stops coming, what then?
Oh, trust me--I've thought all about that.  I am familiar with someone who has that setup just for herself, for years now. The care is better, and cheaper than my mother's nursing home.
I'm not arguing about the difficulty that you could run into managing that sort of thing. I am arguing that the economies of scale should mean that a shared room in a large nursing home should be a better value in some way, but it is not.
But it's two completely different things which are being compared, isn't it?  A lot of it is that your "one aide between 6 to 8 residents" is more like 5 or 10 aides between 6 to 8 residents, because they are needed 24/7 and providing a higher level of care to more significantly disabled people who can do much less for themselves.  Quite possibly a lot of the rest is that the person with in-home care isn't accounting for housing, utility and food costs out of the care budget whereas the nursing home is.  So the cost comparison is apples and oranges.  Which is not to say that home care often isn't preferable, for personal reasons as well as financial ones, but people usually go into care because home is no longer possible and there is no other choice compatible with staying alive in some sort of basic level of comfort. 

It's always possible that where you are the level of personal need involved and the lack of other options creates a captive market for the nursing home and they are profiting from that.  Part of the price of old age I'm afraid.  Everything I've seen tells me that old age is not for wimps.

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2018, 10:28:10 AM »
Staffing is the big expense.  Say you need one person available 24/7.  Normal working day of 8 hours is 3 people.  But normal working week is only 5 days and the week is 7 days, which is 21 shifts a week which is 4 and a bit people a week.  Then lets add in holidays and public days for those 4 and a bit people, and maybe some sick leave as well and you are getting up to needing 5 full time people in order to have one person available 24/7.

Now add in that for seriously ill or disabled people, which is mostly what you are talking about, and quite often any tasks relating to their personal care will need two people at the same time, for safety and proper care.  That's 10 full time people.

Even for in-home care, while you will probably not have someone on hand 24/7 (which brings with it certain limitations, including limitations on safety and amount of care available), proportionately you are still paying for the same 5 or 10 people to have one person permanently available.

And let's not forget that you need to find the people willing to provide the care.  It can be literally shitty work and a lot of people have other options.  The people who want to do the work or don't have other options may not be suitable.  If there is no-one suitable who is available or willing, or one of the ones who is suddenly stops coming, what then?
Oh, trust me--I've thought all about that.  I am familiar with someone who has that setup just for herself, for years now. The care is better, and cheaper than my mother's nursing home.
I'm not arguing about the difficulty that you could run into managing that sort of thing. I am arguing that the economies of scale should mean that a shared room in a large nursing home should be a better value in some way, but it is not.
But it's two completely different things which are being compared, isn't it?  A lot of it is that your "one aide between 6 to 8 residents" is more like 5 or 10 aides between 6 to 8 residents, because they are needed 24/7 and providing a higher level of care to more significantly disabled people who can do much less for themselves.  Quite possibly a lot of the rest is that the person with in-home care isn't accounting for housing, utility and food costs out of the care budget whereas the nursing home is.  So the cost comparison is apples and oranges.  Which is not to say that home care often isn't preferable, for personal reasons as well as financial ones, but people usually go into care because home is no longer possible and there is no other choice compatible with staying alive in some sort of basic level of comfort. 

It's always possible that where you are the level of personal need involved and the lack of other options creates a captive market for the nursing home and they are profiting from that.  Part of the price of old age I'm afraid.  Everything I've seen tells me that old age is not for wimps.
It's not 5-10 aides per 6-8 residents, they would make no money if it were that way!
1 aide:6-8
1 nurse for 20-50 im not even sure. They pretty much just dispense medications
1 doc for 100's
Therapists that don't count as it's a completely different service
1 janitor/housekeeper for perhaps 50
1 food service per perhaps 50.
Look. I've been there at home.  I'm constantly at the nursing home. The in home aide can do everything.  If 2 people could share 1 aide, perhaps paying slightly more, it would be a great savings. The housing is variable, but last time I checked,  a studio apartment is way cheaper than an entire house. Having roommates is cheaper yet. You can try to justify the costs for just about anything, but as a consumer, I want to see the value, and I don't.  Giving, the specific example I have in mind, and the price that is being extracted for it. I know what I was paying for everything for my mother, and I can easily extrapolate it to paying an aide 24-7. It was one on one care, catered to her, in an entire home, for significantly less money. It should not be.

FI4good

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2018, 10:54:11 AM »
I can see a mustache care home happening.

lots of complainy-pants stealth weathers asking for the heating to be turned down, socks to be darned and re-useable nappies . you'd probably all collectively run a side hustle doing child care or growing medical cannabis.     

rosarugosa

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2018, 05:33:30 PM »
I can see a mustache care home happening.

lots of complainy-pants stealth weathers asking for the heating to be turned down, socks to be darned and re-useable nappies . you'd probably all collectively run a side hustle doing child care or growing medical cannabis.     

Great ideas for the side hustles!

accolay

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2018, 06:12:53 PM »
It's not 5-10 aides per 6-8 residents, they would make no money if it were that way!
1 aide:6-8
1 nurse for 20-50 im not even sure. They pretty much just dispense medications
1 doc for 100's
Therapists that don't count as it's a completely different service
1 janitor/housekeeper for perhaps 50
1 food service per perhaps 50.
Look. I've been there at home.  I'm constantly at the nursing home. The in home aide can do everything.  If 2 people could share 1 aide, perhaps paying slightly more, it would be a great savings. The housing is variable, but last time I checked,  a studio apartment is way cheaper than an entire house. Having roommates is cheaper yet. You can try to justify the costs for just about anything, but as a consumer, I want to see the value, and I don't.  Giving, the specific example I have in mind, and the price that is being extracted for it. I know what I was paying for everything for my mother, and I can easily extrapolate it to paying an aide 24-7. It was one on one care, catered to her, in an entire home, for significantly less money. It should not be.

This is unrealistic. Labor for 24-7 = 720 hours for 30 days at a generous $10/hr pay rate = $7200 not including what the employer pays. That's why the cost is spread over 6-8 people.

Until you find some free labor, you're not going to see the price go down.

Or have all the old people tend your weed plants.
Quote
Now your back's going to hurt 'cause you just pulled landscaping duty

Milizard

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Re: Old age care
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2018, 06:52:49 PM »
It's not 5-10 aides per 6-8 residents, they would make no money if it were that way!
1 aide:6-8
1 nurse for 20-50 im not even sure. They pretty much just dispense medications
1 doc for 100's
Therapists that don't count as it's a completely different service
1 janitor/housekeeper for perhaps 50
1 food service per perhaps 50.
Look. I've been there at home.  I'm constantly at the nursing home. The in home aide can do everything.  If 2 people could share 1 aide, perhaps paying slightly more, it would be a great savings. The housing is variable, but last time I checked,  a studio apartment is way cheaper than an entire house. Having roommates is cheaper yet. You can try to justify the costs for just about anything, but as a consumer, I want to see the value, and I don't.  Giving, the specific example I have in mind, and the price that is being extracted for it. I know what I was paying for everything for my mother, and I can easily extrapolate it to paying an aide 24-7. It was one on one care, catered to her, in an entire home, for significantly less money. It should not be.

This is unrealistic. Labor for 24-7 = 720 hours for 30 days at a generous $10/hr pay rate = $7200 not including what the employer pays. That's why the cost is spread over 6-8 people.

Until you find some free labor, you're not going to see the price go down.

Or have all the old people tend your weed plants.
Quote
Now your back's going to hurt 'cause you just pulled landscaping duty

You're not understanding the argument.  When you are sharing those services amongst so many people, shouldn't your costs go down significantly? 1/6 of an aide at $7200 = $1200/month.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!