Author Topic: Obamacare is going to sting a lot  (Read 87003 times)

Numbers Man

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Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« on: August 05, 2013, 05:57:46 PM »
Just a little background. I got tired of overpaying for the family healthcare plan at work and purchased a $10,000 deductible plan from Blue Cross Blue Shield HSA for $350 a month for the family in 2008. I gave up my plan when it reached $650 in 2012. Fortunately my wife had a new job where the high deductible plan (much less than $10k) was $109 a month plus the company kicked in $125 a month contribution to the HSA. In other words, we were paid $16 a month to carry health insurance, a very Mustashian $666 turn around. Now the insurance will cost $284 a month as the company blames Obamacare (still getting the $125 HSA contribution).

So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

MoneyLifeandMore

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 06:25:57 PM »
I have plenty of surplus to cover these increases. I'd rather they not increase, but I won't have to cut any expenses unless I wanted to maintain a certain savings rate.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 06:31:32 PM »
It's too soon to draw that conclusion. 

Yes, your premium went up, allegedly because of Obamacare, but at the same time your policy can't be cancelled or capped because one of you gets sick.  If you change plans, there are no exceptions for pre-existing conditions.  And because many more people will be insured, pay into the system, and get routine care, overall system costs should decline.  If you or your wife decide to retire before you're eligible for Medicare, you will be able to buy insurance on the open market regardless of your health -- free of the need to be employed just to get insurance.  In 2003, when my ex-husband and I divorced, he had to close down his consulting business and take a job with a company big enough to insure him.  He's a Type 1 diabetic and he either couldn't get a policy or it was ridiculously expensive (as in, more than his rent).  Obamacare fixes all these inefficiencies.

There are times when the overall health of the system we're part of has to be considered rather than just thinking about the impact on one individual/ family.  The old system was badly broken and grossly inefficient and very expensive as a consequence.  Will Obamacare fix all of that?  Dunno.  But parts of it certainly are a step in the right direction.

ny.er

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 06:54:19 PM »
$284 for you and your wife sounds like a great deal to me, and you will still pay less than you were paying from 2008-2012. I'm not sure of your age but my high deductible plan is a lot more than that. I'm waiting to see what our cost will be. If higher, extra cost will probably come from savings, since husband is ER, and my work doesn't cover us. I don't blame Obamacare for increases in healthcare expenses, since they've been going up like crazy ever since I can remember. Obamacare is basically a plan devised by someone at MIT and found to work fairly well in MA. I do everything within MY power to keep AWAY from doctors and hospitals. I'm really glad they're there when we need 'em, but I exercise (walk) like crazy and eat well, keep my weight down, and nag my husband to do the same :) One last thing... our readers here from Europe are shocked by our low federal taxes. They pay more in taxes for more healthcare and education benefits. Either way, the expense has to be paid, especially since everyone seems to want to live forever! So, no complainy pants from my household :)

footenote

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 06:54:48 PM »
It's too soon to draw that conclusion. 

Yes, your premium went up, allegedly because of Obamacare, but at the same time your policy can't be cancelled or capped because one of you gets sick.  If you change plans, there are no exceptions for pre-existing conditions.  And because many more people will be insured, pay into the system, and get routine care, overall system costs should decline.  If you or your wife decide to retire before you're eligible for Medicare, you will be able to buy insurance on the open market regardless of your health -- free of the need to be employed just to get insurance.  In 2003, when my ex-husband and I divorced, he had to close down his consulting business and take a job with a company big enough to insure him.  He's a Type 1 diabetic and he either couldn't get a policy or it was ridiculously expensive (as in, more than his rent).  Obamacare fixes all these inefficiencies.

There are times when the overall health of the system we're part of has to be considered rather than just thinking about the impact on one individual/ family.  The old system was badly broken and grossly inefficient and very expensive as a consequence.  Will Obamacare fix all of that?  Dunno.  But parts of it certainly are a step in the right direction.
+1

randymarsh

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 06:56:22 PM »
It's expected that prices for those younger, healthier, or male will rise. With those higher prices though, you're also getting more as TrulyStashin mentioned. Birth control for example is now "free" so that right there is $20-$100 a month couples won't have to pay.

destron

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 06:57:20 PM »
So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

geekette

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 07:01:41 PM »
So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

+1

Our unsubsidized cost for a high deductible plan is $933/mo for two this year.  The OP is getting a deal.

Coneal

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 07:22:04 PM »
So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

+1

Our unsubsidized cost for a high deductible plan is $933/mo for two this year.  The OP is getting a deal.

Wow who is the insurer?  BCBSNC cost me $140/mo this year 7500 deductible.

Dr.Vibrissae

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 07:25:35 PM »
On the other hand the amount I have to pay this year went down significantly and I save over $300 on BC.  The OP is stil paying less for the Whole family than I did for just covering myself on a high deductible plan ( that did't even cover pregnancy, that would have doubled my premium.)

I guess I'm saying it's not clear to me that prices have gone up across the board due to implementation.

AJ

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 07:25:56 PM »
I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

At the risk of devolving into yet another healthcare debate - sick people need healthcare, not health insurance. It is a non-trivial distinction. Saying sick people need health insurance is like saying someone whose home just burnt to the ground needs hazard insurance. That is most certainly not what insurance is for. Health insurance is not for sick people. It is for all people to spread the risk of potential high cost events out among a group of people so that they may each pay a known premium rather than risk an unknown expense.

olivia

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 07:26:39 PM »
So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

+2 

mpbaker22

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 07:50:43 PM »
It's expected that prices for those younger, healthier, or male will rise. With those higher prices though, you're also getting more as TrulyStashin mentioned. Birth control for example is now "free"built into the cost of the plan so that right there is $20-$100 a month couples won't have to payyou'll have to pay cost plus profit for to your insurance company.

I fixed the errors in this post with the strike through text.

bogart

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 08:18:32 PM »
I'll count my blessings that my (adult) stepkid with an autoimmune condition will finally be able to buy health insurance even if she chooses not to work (you know, does something crazy like RE) or finds herself out of work.  And that my other stepkid (self-employed) and SK's fiancee (employed by a small business) will be able to buy insurance even if they get sick.  Thanks for asking :)!

TrulyStashin

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2013, 08:21:57 PM »
So will everyone just grin and bear the price increase? Increase Income or just find expenses to cut? And/Or better yet, call your elected representatives and voice your displeasure.

I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

Or at least add the "public option" to force profit-driven health companies to lower their costs in order to compete.  The fact that some health insurance companies are publicly traded on the stock market acts as an upward lever on health care costs.  Someone has to pay those fat officer salaries.

Two more benefits -- insurers can't charge women more (previously common to charge up to 150% more than men) and if administrative costs exceed a set amount, then insurers have to rebate part of the premium to customers.   U.S. administrative costs for healthcare are astronomical compared to other developed nations (3 or 4x as much -- so much for the "efficiency" of the private sector) and this provision reins those costs in.

MoneyCat

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 08:43:13 PM »
The health insurance premiums from the marketplace opening in New York under Obamacare are less than 1/2 the current cost.  Meanwhile, people are finally going to be able to afford to go to the doctor -- people like my brothers who have been without health insurance for their entire adult lives because they work low wage jobs.

So a few isolated cases are going to involve people paying a small increase in premium.  Boo freakin' hoo!  For 99.9% of people, it's going to be a price decrease.  I'd say that's pretty good.

olivia

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 08:48:16 PM »
It's expected that prices for those younger, healthier, or male will rise. With those higher prices though, you're also getting more as TrulyStashin mentioned. Birth control for example is now "free"built into the cost of the plan so that right there is $20-$100 a month couples won't have to payyou'll have to pay cost plus profit for to your insurance company.

I fixed the errors in this post with the strike through text.

Actually insurers are happy to offer contraception with no copay-it's a shit ton cheaper than paying for a woman to have a baby.  The anti-birth control crowd that also happens to be anti-food stamps/WIC/welfare should really think that through a little better.

renbutler

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 08:54:07 PM »
The health insurance premiums from the marketplace opening in New York under Obamacare are less than 1/2 the current cost.  Meanwhile, people are finally going to be able to afford to go to the doctor -- people like my brothers who have been without health insurance for their entire adult lives because they work low wage jobs.

So a few isolated cases are going to involve people paying a small increase in premium.  Boo freakin' hoo!  For 99.9% of people, it's going to be a price decrease.  I'd say that's pretty good.

I'm certain that it's far less than 99.9%. Unless you have access to information that I haven't seen in several years of playing close attention.

Link?

renbutler

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 08:57:45 PM »
At the risk of devolving into yet another healthcare debate - sick people need healthcare, not health insurance. It is a non-trivial distinction. Saying sick people need health insurance is like saying someone whose home just burnt to the ground needs hazard insurance. That is most certainly not what insurance is for. Health insurance is not for sick people. It is for all people to spread the risk of potential high cost events out among a group of people so that they may each pay a known premium rather than risk an unknown expense.

This is an outstanding point that should not be glossed over.

There are bits and pieces in the legislation that were long overdue. Unfortunately, the manner in which it was passed (in which Congressional leaders acknowledged that they didn't know what was in it) packed it full of wholly regrettable and disasterous things that will make (and in some cases already have made) many people very unhappy -- and not just the "rich," whom some people wrongly believe will get stuck with the bill.

destron

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »
I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

At the risk of devolving into yet another healthcare debate - sick people need healthcare, not health insurance. It is a non-trivial distinction. Saying sick people need health insurance is like saying someone whose home just burnt to the ground needs hazard insurance. That is most certainly not what insurance is for. Health insurance is not for sick people. It is for all people to spread the risk of potential high cost events out among a group of people so that they may each pay a known premium rather than risk an unknown expense.

One needs health insurance to get comprehensive health care.

bogart

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2013, 09:40:44 PM »
Actually insurers are happy to offer contraception with no copay-it's a shit ton cheaper than paying for a woman to have a baby.  The anti-birth control crowd that also happens to be anti-food stamps/WIC/welfare should really think that through a little better.

Not in my state they're not, because if you're buying a policy as an individual, you're not necessarily getting maternity coverage.  For reference, I just priced an individual BCBS plan for a 32 year old female; a $5K deductible plan would run $158 per month with no maternity coverage and $282 with maternity coverage (an extra $124/month).  That will, of course, change with the ACA.  Right now, the same plan for a man (with no maternity coverage, obviously...) would run $103/month.

olivia

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013, 09:44:47 PM »
Actually insurers are happy to offer contraception with no copay-it's a shit ton cheaper than paying for a woman to have a baby.  The anti-birth control crowd that also happens to be anti-food stamps/WIC/welfare should really think that through a little better.

Not in my state they're not, because if you're buying a policy as an individual, you're not necessarily getting maternity coverage.  For reference, I just priced an individual BCBS plan for a 32 year old female; a $5K deductible plan would run $158 per month with no maternity coverage and $282 with maternity coverage (an extra $124/month).  That will, of course, change with the ACA.  Right now, the same plan for a man (with no maternity coverage, obviously...) would run $103/month.

Right, that's the case currently, but with the implementation of the ACA, maternity coverage and birth control are required to be included.  And paying for birth control is a lot cheaper than paying for the delivery of a baby. 

geekette

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2013, 09:50:49 PM »
Our unsubsidized cost for a high deductible plan is $933/mo for two this year.  The OP is getting a deal.

Wow who is the insurer?  BCBSNC cost me $140/mo this year 7500 deductible.

This is a company/group plan, with an HSA and a $2500pp deductible through United Health Care.  Husband got laid off, so we're on COBRA, and thus paying on our own.  When he was working, it was $130/mo.

One thing that probably drives up the price is that it covers preventive care in full (physical, labs, bone density, colonoscopy), and preventive meds in full as well. 

bogart

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2013, 10:03:30 PM »
...paying for birth control is a lot cheaper than paying for the delivery of a baby.

Sure.  But count me among those glad that (as you note) the ACA requires coverage for both.  I'd like to imagine that with the requirement of maternity coverage would come a willingness to cover contraception, but I don't actually believe that would have happened across the board (as witness the opposition to same). 


5oclockshadow

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2013, 10:04:22 PM »


I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.
[/quote]

I am of the mind that absurd claims should not go unchallenged.  We get worse results?  Than whom?  Yes, we have poor life expectancy, but that's because we kill each other in car accidents and with guns far more than most other countries, and we eat, drink, and smoke ourselves to death more avidly than most other countries. 

But, our healthcare is AWESOME!  You are more likely to be cured of breast cancer in the US than any other country on earth (this stat includes all our uninsured and underinsured.  Among the insured, the number is even better).  You are more likely to survive to 5 years with prostate cancer than on any country on earth.  Colorectal cancer?  The same.  You are more likely to survive in the US than any country with socialized medicine.  If you have made it to age 70, you are more likely to live to 100 in the US than any other nation on the planet.  Preventative care is worth every bit of the debate it is receiving, but no nationalized system can deliver the results of the American system when it comes to treating disease burden.

In fact, if you can avoid dying in a car accident or at the end of a pistol (which are most certainly not the fault of any nation's healthcare system), YOUR LIFE EXPECTANCY AS AN AMERICAN IS GREATER THAN THAT OF ANY OTHER NATIONALITY (assuming the same "no trauma" stats)!  This assumes you roll the dice as to whether you are insured or not.  This assumes you still eat, smoke, drink, drug, and sit on a couch like an average American.  All you have to do is not die due to trauma and you will, on average, outlive your cohorts of every other nationality.  Our healthcare is awesome!  If you look not at life expectancy (after all, we could always improve our life expectancy numbers by doing what Cuba does and forcibly abort the 60% of our fetuses we think are most likely to have defects) but at treatment of disease, we have the best outcomes in the world.

I am a doctor.  I see this every day.  We do the medical research for the entire world.  We discover over 65% of all the drugs for the world.  We treat the refugees of the world, mostly for free.  We treat our own system abusers who have no financial skin in the game and call 911 weekly to get the free ham sandwich in the ER.  I have treated patients who fled North Korea and Burundi for medical care, but I've also cared for a woman who "fled" the UK 26 years ago because the vaunted socialized medicine NHS algorithm said she was too old for the procedure she needed to save her life.  Twenty-six years after being "too old to save," she's still working in her garden in her adoptive country, all because she made it out of her socialized healthcare and to the US in time.

We have "worse results" only if you're cherry-picking your stats.

To the OP: If you think the cost of Obamacare is going to sting a lot, just wait to see what happens to our outcomes over the next 20 years...


Another Reader

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2013, 10:19:44 PM »
I have treated patients who fled North Korea and Burundi for medical care, but I've also cared for a woman who "fled" the UK 26 years ago because the vaunted socialized medicine NHS algorithm said she was too old for the procedure she needed to save her life.  Twenty-six years after being "too old to save," she's still working in her garden in her adoptive country, all because she made it out of her socialized healthcare and to the US in time.

Yep.  The outcomes will be the same as the NHS, except a little more uneven because insurance companies will make more of the decisions and every company's algorithm will be different.  As my Dad used to say, engineered low quality.  Although at the time he was talking about McDonalds' food, not health care....

randymarsh

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2013, 05:27:38 AM »
I fixed the errors in this post with the strike through text.

Seriously? Free was in quotes for a reason. Free as in "no charge at time of service". I know it's being paid for by premiums. Next you'll be telling us how Canada's healthcare isn't free. Yes, I know. Taxes. But it's free when you need it which is the point.

mpbaker22

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2013, 05:52:39 AM »
I fixed the errors in this post with the strike through text.

Seriously? Free was in quotes for a reason. Free as in "no charge at time of service". I know it's being paid for by premiums. Next you'll be telling us how Canada's healthcare isn't free. Yes, I know. Taxes. But it's free when you need it which is the point.

The entire point is that type of payment is completely anti-mustachian.  It's like having auto insurance with a $250 deductible and monthly premiums that are $75 higher than the $1000 deductible.  Or like any 'service' that gives you the same monthly charge every month, so people buy in even though it ought to be part of any reasonably planned budget.

Sparafusile

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2013, 06:05:42 AM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.

randymarsh

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2013, 06:41:48 AM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.

I never understand why people against universal healthcare don't think about this. Isn't America supposed to be so great for starting your own business and entrepreneurship? Who knows how many people want to go out on their own, but are chained to their corporate jobs just because of insurance.

CorpRaider

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2013, 06:47:17 AM »
Yeah, I've seen the BCBS adds trying to blame poor health outcomes on increased smoking and drinking in the US.  I don't buy it for one minute.  The incentives are screwed up.  Fee for service is guaranteed to generate more service and more fees.  Have they been outside the country?  You can smoke in freaking airports in europe.  Also, Dr's there aren't rich.  I've seen hospitals spend hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to block a competitor hospital from getting approval to compete in providing a certain service.  The whole system is entirely indefensible.

footenote

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2013, 07:11:36 AM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.
My reading is that the delay impacts employers only. If you are unemployed and cannot get other coverage because of pre-existing condition, you can get coverage through an Indiana exchange starting Jan 2014. (I don't know when your exchange goes live; most will be operational this October.)

Hope you can pursue your entrepreneurial goals starting in January!

PS I'm not sure how COBRA availability will affect your ability to get coverage through an exchange. It's conceivable you will be required to exhaust COBRA before being eligible for an exchange health plan. Definitely do your research on that before you jump.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 07:58:12 AM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.

I never understand why people against universal healthcare don't think about this. Isn't America supposed to be so great for starting your own business and entrepreneurship? Who knows how many people want to go out on their own, but are chained to their corporate jobs just because of insurance.

The burden on employers is also significant.  The estimated the cost of providing health insurance to workers added $1500 to $2000 to the cost of every new car produced in the U.S.  http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/03/18/skyrocketing-health-care-costs-hamper-u-s-competitiveness/.  When U.S. employers have to carry this burden and compete against German employers (for instance) who don't have this burden, I'm amazed that the corporate world continues to put up with it.

Regarding the quality of U.S. health care . . . yes, the quality of our care is outstanding.  If you can get it.   Before Obamacare, about half of Americans had no insurance and thus no reliable access.   To 150 million Americans, high quality didn't mean much.

sulaco

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2013, 08:04:01 AM »
I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

At the risk of devolving into yet another healthcare debate - sick people need healthcare, not health insurance. It is a non-trivial distinction. Saying sick people need health insurance is like saying someone whose home just burnt to the ground needs hazard insurance. That is most certainly not what insurance is for. Health insurance is not for sick people. It is for all people to spread the risk of potential high cost events out among a group of people so that they may each pay a known premium rather than risk an unknown expense.

One needs health insurance to get comprehensive health care.

Somehow that seems to be true primarily in the US.

Decoupling the cost of something (insurance, subsidized mortgages and student loans, subsidized phones) has a tendency to increase cost for the payer. The idea that major healthcare reform almost undoubtedly includes the word insurance in the solution should be enough evidence to indicate who has the most money at risk in the situation. A bill was passed that requires everyone in the country to pay a third party for services unrelated to the physical act of health care. Certainly there is some inefficiency there.

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2013, 08:12:53 AM »
I pay $714 a month for a family of 4 through BCBS. Our deductible is $2500 each. It used to be a LOT cheaper.

Doctors need to just start taking cash payments and not involve insurance. Some already are and they dropped their prices in half.

Oklahoma Surgery Center does this. They list their prices for services and do not take insurance, thus they're prices are MUCH cheaper.

Luck better Skill

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2013, 08:28:26 AM »

<snip>
We have "worse results" only if you're cherry-picking your stats.

To the OP: If you think the cost of Obamacare is going to sting a lot, just wait to see what happens to our outcomes over the next 20 years...

  I agree we have the best healthcare in the world.  I am sure we can improve it and make it better.  I doubt affordable healthcare act will do so.  Tens of thousands of pages of regulations will not be cheap to implement.  Thousands of non medical personal hired into health care to administer paper work does not sound cost effective.  There are citizens who will gain better care and/or lower cost plus those who will not.  Over the next few years everyone will see how it pans out.  My reservations are with 5oclockshadow, other doctors and nurses I know.   

brewer12345

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2013, 09:01:45 AM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.

I never understand why people against universal healthcare don't think about this. Isn't America supposed to be so great for starting your own business and entrepreneurship? Who knows how many people want to go out on their own, but are chained to their corporate jobs just because of insurance.

To me this is the silver lining and potentially large upside of the implementation of PPACA. 

zhelud

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2013, 09:43:57 AM »
For informed, wonky discussions of ACA and other health issues, this blog, written by doctors, is good:

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/

destron

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2013, 10:56:49 AM »
Quote from: destron
I am of the mind that people who are not healthy should also be able to get health insurance (i.e. the people who need it). That's what it's for.

It's only a shame that we did not go to a fully nationalized plan. Considering we spend far more on health insurance for worse results that many, our system is obviously not working.

Quote from: 5oclockshadow
I am of the mind that absurd claims should not go unchallenged.  We get worse results?  Than whom?  Yes, we have poor life expectancy, but that's because we kill each other in car accidents and with guns far more than most other countries, and we eat, drink, and smoke ourselves to death more avidly than most other countries. 

But, our healthcare is AWESOME!  You are more likely to be cured of breast cancer in the US than any other country on earth (this stat includes all our uninsured and underinsured.  Among the insured, the number is even better).  You are more likely to survive to 5 years with prostate cancer than on any country on earth.  Colorectal cancer?  The same.  You are more likely to survive in the US than any country with socialized medicine.  If you have made it to age 70, you are more likely to live to 100 in the US than any other nation on the planet.  Preventative care is worth every bit of the debate it is receiving, but no nationalized system can deliver the results of the American system when it comes to treating disease burden.

In fact, if you can avoid dying in a car accident or at the end of a pistol (which are most certainly not the fault of any nation's healthcare system), YOUR LIFE EXPECTANCY AS AN AMERICAN IS GREATER THAN THAT OF ANY OTHER NATIONALITY (assuming the same "no trauma" stats)!  This assumes you roll the dice as to whether you are insured or not.  This assumes you still eat, smoke, drink, drug, and sit on a couch like an average American.  All you have to do is not die due to trauma and you will, on average, outlive your cohorts of every other nationality.  Our healthcare is awesome!  If you look not at life expectancy (after all, we could always improve our life expectancy numbers by doing what Cuba does and forcibly abort the 60% of our fetuses we think are most likely to have defects) but at treatment of disease, we have the best outcomes in the world.

Sorry if I am incredulous to your grand claims, but you will need to provide some references for me. Since you are a doctor, I am disappointed that you would make such specific claims without any, but I do trust that you have them. In particular I am curious to see where Americans' life expectancy is greater than any other nation if you take out deaths due to trauma. You also make no mention to quality of life. No other country also boxes up their elderly and keeps them alive on drugs and machines for as long as possible the same way we do.

And for reference, here is a list of the WHO's ranking of worldwide healthcare systems. In particular, note that the US sits at #38 with expenditure at #1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems



Quote
You are more likely to survive to 5 years with prostate cancer than on any country on earth.

Talk about cherry picking data the same way Cuba does to make it seem as if they have a lower infant mortality rate. In the US, you are more likely to be diagnosed early with prostate cancer due to aggressive (and controversial) testing for prostate cancer. This is cancer that is often not treated regardless of diagnosis. You think that might have something to do with it? Also, reference please for your specific claim.

Quote
We have "worse results" only if you're cherry-picking your stats.

We have "better results" only if you are cherry picking your stats. Our medical system is certainly excellent at the very top, but not for the masses. I've lived in a country with socialized medicine and, in my experience, it is far superior. You are also crazy if you think that living with no health insurance in the US is better than having health insurance in Japan. Perhaps you can explain to me why my brother cannot get health insurance in this oh so wonderful system that you love so much?

Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data.

Growing percentage of Americans without health insurance:
http://www.ebri.org/publications/benfaq/index.cfm?fa=hlthfaq10

Countries by life expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy. US total is 79, compared to 83 for Japan and Switzerland. Note that all the top countries have universal health care.

EDIT:

Alcohol consumption per capita:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption

Tobacco consumption per capita:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_cigarette_consumption_per_capita

Note that the US is lower in alcohol consumption and tobacco consumption than most of the countries with a longer lifespan. This is just for reference since you implied that our health care was better despite our alcohol and tobacco use (totally agree with you about the sitting on the couch and eating, though).
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 11:05:28 AM by destron »

Albert

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2013, 11:26:57 AM »
Anyone who has spent any time in UK, preferably outside London, will know that the lifestyle of lower classes there is anything but healthy. They drink like fishes to start with...

AJ

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2013, 12:38:12 PM »
Countries by life expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy. US total is 79, compared to 83 for Japan and Switzerland. Note that all the top countries have universal health care.

Correlation is not causation. The top countries have lower obesity rates than the US - Japan and Switzerland in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obesity_country_comparison_-_path.svg

Switzerland's universal health care has only been around since 1994, so I'm not sure you can say that is the cause of their high life expectancy. They had years on us long before that went into effect.

I'm in favor of properly implemented universal care, but it isn't a panacea that will fix the health problems we've given ourselves. I, too, am interested to see the sources the doc provides :)

Mr.Macinstache

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 12:53:21 PM »
The ACA is nothing more than the result Corporatism. The insurance companies and medical industrial complex benefit along with a central government generating revenue. This is our system, the merger of corporations and the state. It creates dependency at the expense of healthy, productive earners.

destron

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2013, 01:03:08 PM »
Countries by life expectancy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy. US total is 79, compared to 83 for Japan and Switzerland. Note that all the top countries have universal health care.

Correlation is not causation. The top countries have lower obesity rates than the US - Japan and Switzerland in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obesity_country_comparison_-_path.svg

Absolutely. I did not meant to imply it if you felt I did. I am trying to show a data point that contradicts the often thrown around idea that universal health care is inferior and will lead to more negative outcomes.

Huffy2k

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2013, 02:10:12 PM »

To the OP: If you think the cost of Obamacare is going to sting a lot, just wait to see what happens to our outcomes over the next 20 years...


Coming from a doctor, this is the part of the ACA that disturbs me the most...

oldtoyota

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2013, 02:15:25 PM »
My wife and I are both thrilled with the new healthcare changes. She is virtually un-insurable due to a bizarre childhood illness which means I have to remain a slave to the man in order to provide health insurance for both of us. Despite the fact that working a day job is severely decreasing my earning potential by not being able to build my business faster. I was very disappointed to hear the deadline had been pushed back a year. One more year not following a dream because of health insurance.

I never understand why people against universal healthcare don't think about this. Isn't America supposed to be so great for starting your own business and entrepreneurship? Who knows how many people want to go out on their own, but are chained to their corporate jobs just because of insurance.

Thank you!

I've been asking this question for years. I never understood why we did not get universal coverage before because it's actually better for small businesses because you can actually start a small biz and still be covered.


bikeknit

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2013, 04:13:28 PM »
It's too soon to draw that conclusion. 

There are times when the overall health of the system we're part of has to be considered rather than just thinking about the impact on one individual/ family.  The old system was badly broken and grossly inefficient and very expensive as a consequence.  Will Obamacare fix all of that?  Dunno.  But parts of it certainly are a step in the right direction.

+1 from me as well.  Health insurance has been the scariest part of ER and knowing that I WILL be able to buy a plan is worth a lot to me. 

tomsang

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2013, 05:44:54 PM »
But, our healthcare is AWESOME!  You are more likely to be cured of breast cancer in the US than any other country on earth (this stat includes all our uninsured and underinsured.  Among the insured, the number is even better).  You are more likely to survive to 5 years with prostate cancer than on any country on earth.  Colorectal cancer?  The same.  You are more likely to survive in the US than any country with socialized medicine.  If you have made it to age 70, you are more likely to live to 100 in the US than any other nation on the planet.  Preventative care is worth every bit of the debate it is receiving, but no nationalized system can deliver the results of the American system when it comes to treating disease burden.

In fact, if you can avoid dying in a car accident or at the end of a pistol (which are most certainly not the fault of any nation's healthcare system), YOUR LIFE EXPECTANCY AS AN AMERICAN IS GREATER THAN THAT OF ANY OTHER NATIONALITY (assuming the same "no trauma" stats)!  This assumes you roll the dice as to whether you are insured or not.  This assumes you still eat, smoke, drink, drug, and sit on a couch like an average American.  All you have to do is not die due to trauma and you will, on average, outlive your cohorts of every other nationality.  Our healthcare is awesome!  If you look not at life expectancy (after all, we could always improve our life expectancy numbers by doing what Cuba does and forcibly abort the 60% of our fetuses we think are most likely to have defects) but at treatment of disease, we have the best outcomes in the world.

I am a doctor.  I see this every day.  We do the medical research for the entire world.  We discover over 65% of all the drugs for the world.  We treat the refugees of the world, mostly for free.  We treat our own system abusers who have no financial skin in the game and call 911 weekly to get the free ham sandwich in the ER.  I have treated patients who fled North Korea and Burundi for medical care, but I've also cared for a woman who "fled" the UK 26 years ago because the vaunted socialized medicine NHS algorithm said she was too old for the procedure she needed to save her life.  Twenty-six years after being "too old to save," she's still working in her garden in her adoptive country, all because she made it out of her socialized healthcare and to the US in time.

We have "worse results" only if you're cherry-picking your stats.

To the OP: If you think the cost of Obamacare is going to sting a lot, just wait to see what happens to our outcomes over the next 20 years...

I would love to see your stats on this.  From the articles that I have read, we have done a terrible job in almost every measured category.  The US has been busy treating the problem vs. keeping us out of having a problem.  Not focusing our dollars on preventative medicine and instead having expensive and mostly ineffective technology and testing has created a skyrocketing healthcare environment compared to the world.  Interesting article that has statistics that may not be acurate, but consistent with what I keep reading about is below.  If you can provide links to statistics that you feel are more accurate that would be helpful.   http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/04/us-healthcare-vs-rest-of-the-world/

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 05:50:18 PM by tomsang »

jawisco

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2013, 07:54:01 PM »
It's expected that prices for those younger, healthier, or male will rise. With those higher prices though, you're also getting more as TrulyStashin mentioned. Birth control for example is now "free"built into the cost of the plan so that right there is $20-$100 a month couples won't have to payyou'll have to pay cost plus profit for to your insurance company.

I fixed the errors in this post with the strike through text.

+1

I do think that is more accurate.

renbutler

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2013, 07:29:11 AM »

randymarsh

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Re: Obamacare is going to sting a lot
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2013, 07:59:43 AM »
Yep, it's gonna sting.

And here's your proof.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/08/06/news/economy/obamacare-premiums/index.html

That article seems like a mixed bag.

"That's because these people live in states where insurers were allowed to sell bare-bones plans and exclude the sick, which has kept costs down. "

So basically healthcare access in Ohio and other lightly regulated states is great...unless you're already sick or want coverage to actually pay for care. And how much did those bare-bones plans actually cover? I suspect not much. Not that it matters because your insurance company would just try to retroactively cancel your policy if you happened to forget to tell them about a headache you had 8 years ago.

"People who are in their 50s with high blood pressure have no coverage options". With Obamacare, now they will.

"All of these rate hikes must still be reviewed by the federal government and do not take into account the fact that Americans with incomes up to $45,960 for an individual and $94,200 for a family of four will be eligible for federal subsidies."

That's something that really needs to be taken into account. Lots of people in my state (and really the entire country) are going to be eligible for subsidies.

"A lot of people will get more for their money," said Sarah Lueck, senior policy analyst for the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. "Even people paying a higher rate will benefit. It will be a big change in most states."



« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 08:01:38 AM by thefinancialstudent »