Author Topic: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting  (Read 36920 times)

jinga nation

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2022, 05:35:04 PM »
there's a sense of quiet quitting at my customer site. it has always been, but wasn't formally called "Quiet Quitting".
consists of the gov civilians doing just enough to get to retirement. most of the QQs are within a couple of years of final exit.

the reason, one of the oldies mentioned, is the promotion process is bureaucracy central, plus a lot of sucking up to superiors. then you have to sell yourself in words, and how the impact of your actions benefits the self, the team, the division, the agency, etc. the process starts 90 days in advance of the promotion day. the contractors immediately sense when the govy goes into IDGAF mode on the projects and starts asking for metrics to incorporate into promotion cycle. It used to be a very simple process, but over the last decade, it has become increasingly sycophantic, as in the corporate world (I know because I used to work on that side prior). The old ones are tired of the shit, they are technically very good, and there's going to be a brain drain, because the younger ones don't care about being technically good, just want to move fast up the ladder. Oldies won't get fired, haven't done anything wrong, and several are single points of failure. And they aren't training replacements because superiors don't want the youngins to learn the technical skills.

Which means, they have to get contractors to do the technical heavy lift, pay them more, and also get to bitch about the contractors getting paid seemingly obscene amounts (which isn't true).

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2022, 06:41:03 PM »
Also, it's not that the businesses "require" 10s, it's that only a perfect or near perfect score represents a satisfied customer, because that's just how people reply.

They don't reply with a 3 when they're satisfied, but there's room for improvement. If they did, then the businesses would be happy with a 3/5 or above, but that's just not how customers respond.

It's exceedingly rare that I rate anything 10/10 or 5/5.  To get that rating, you must exceed all expectations.  Usually when reading online reviews due to the common practice of paying people to fake reviews, I ignore anything that shows perfect look for real ones.

But now I'm stuck with a conundrum.  Do I conform to the current stupidity of perfect ratings for average performance (knowing that employers appear to view perfection as 'acceptable' . . . or do I keep performing sensible ratings in the hope that at some point the world will return to some semblance of sanity?

Lol, IIRC you're an engineer, right?

Then yeah, you're one of the outliers who rates that way, and yes, it likely hurts whomever is being reviewed.

Yes, engineer.  I feel like we need to publicize correct metrics to the public for decision making.

5 - You are considering murdering your spouse to purchase from here again.  It's that good.
4 - You were shocked at how good this thing/service was.
3 - Things were at the expected high quality.
2 - Below average
1 - Shit.

A solid 3 with some 4s means that you've had some pretty damned good service.  Which sounds about right.

It makes more sense than what appears to be going on right now where it's not possible to indicate good service:
5 - Average
4 - Shit
3 - Shit
2 - Shit
1 - Shit

Dude, you can believe that all you want, but it's simply not how people behave.

We can only interpret what the data tell us, and that's that people respond the second way, not the way you prefer.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2022, 06:43:04 PM »
It's quite a shitty system where a sensibel rating get's someone in trouble.

Well yeah, but that's how people rate things. We don't design it to be used that way, that's just how people use it.

Note, I'm not defending how people use it, I'm defending the practice of interpreting the data accurately.

The data don't support that 3/5 means satisfied customers. It just doesn't, no matter how many engineers believe it should, lol.

LD_TAndK

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #153 on: September 07, 2022, 05:43:37 AM »
Quiet quitting similarities in this "lying flat" and "let it rot" documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ7S-nKmAr4&ab_channel=CNAInsider

From the video, the difference between the "let it rot" interviewees and the ones who embrace 996 (9am-9pm six days a week) seems to be if they feel they have real opportunity. The "let it rot" have generally worked hard in the past and feel they have nothing to show for it.

havregryn

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2022, 06:01:08 AM »
Also, it's not that the businesses "require" 10s, it's that only a perfect or near perfect score represents a satisfied customer, because that's just how people reply.

They don't reply with a 3 when they're satisfied, but there's room for improvement. If they did, then the businesses would be happy with a 3/5 or above, but that's just not how customers respond.

It's exceedingly rare that I rate anything 10/10 or 5/5.  To get that rating, you must exceed all expectations.  Usually when reading online reviews due to the common practice of paying people to fake reviews, I ignore anything that shows perfect look for real ones.

But now I'm stuck with a conundrum.  Do I conform to the current stupidity of perfect ratings for average performance (knowing that employers appear to view perfection as 'acceptable' . . . or do I keep performing sensible ratings in the hope that at some point the world will return to some semblance of sanity?

My husband, also an engineer, used to do this but I got him to stop. I agree in principle that it's ridiculous, but it's true that less than perfect reviews hurt providers because new users expect either (near)perfect 5 stars or expect serious issues. Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.


In my opinion, the best way to handle these things fairly is to sort your own less than pefect experience into one of these categories:

1. You didn't think the product/experience/service was worthy of unequivocally positive feedback, but none of your complaints are truly worth causing damage to the provider nor super relevant to point out (I imagine this would apply in the case where you think the experience was average). In that case you just don't write a review and move on.

2. Your experience was generally fine, but some issues should be pointed out for the sake of feedback to the provider and other potential customers. In that case you give a 5 star numerical review but mention the issues in your text review, so that anyone who actually cares to do their research can find this information, but without creating a disproportionate negative impact on the numerical rating.

3. There was something actually wrong with the whole thing that absolutely deserves to draw attention to, like cases of blatant false advertising, legit safety issues etc - in that case you give a lower numerical rating and explain.

But giving 3 stars for average experiences is a bad thing to do, because it hurts the provider more than it helps you rebuild a world of common sense.

HawkeyeNFO

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #155 on: September 07, 2022, 08:37:36 AM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 08:40:14 AM by HawkeyeNFO »

ATtiny85

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #156 on: September 07, 2022, 09:06:44 AM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

Agree. Not sure why there is so much interest in bringing extremism to ratings. Seems like there is already enough of that around.

Whenever someone makes a show of asking for a top rating I normally simply abstain and not even play the game. I consider most services very transactional, and if the survey/review was not part of my contract I feel no obligation to play.

havregryn

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #157 on: September 07, 2022, 09:49:16 AM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.


HawkeyeNFO

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #158 on: September 07, 2022, 09:58:52 AM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.
The point is to be honest.  If you can't be honest, then don't fill out a review.  Being honest doesn't mean you're an asshole.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 10:43:34 AM by HawkeyeNFO »

Villanelle

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #159 on: September 07, 2022, 10:35:41 AM »
It's interesting to me that I may have been giving service providers anxiety with my ratings.  To me, a 4 is a good rating.  That's basically, "there was nothing wrong and it was overall a nice experience, but there wasn't anything exceptional, either."  Put another way, it's "I will definitely keep my business with you and if anyone asks me about you I'd tell them I'm happy, but I'm not going to scream from the rooftops, unsolicited, about how utterly fantastic you are."

The idea that someone would see my 4s and wonder what went wrong is surprising.  But probably won't change my behavior as ti feels dishonest to me to give a 5 for "not any problems, nothing to worry about, job well done" type experiences. 

I suppose in a perfect work, 3 would be average, but I can't make the leap to 5/5 being average.  Average or average+ gets a 4. 

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #160 on: September 07, 2022, 01:04:03 PM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.
The point is to be honest.  If you can't be honest, then don't fill out a review.  Being honest doesn't mean you're an asshole.

You're assuming that your interpretation of the ratings though defines what is "honest."

You can intend to be honest, but if how you say something is interpreted differently by the vast majority of people, are you really expressing yourself honestly?

I have many, many times said something here that I meant to be respectful, but that people interpreted as judgemental. Thankfully, in forum world, I have an opportunity to clarify my meaning. If you give a 3 star rating because you believe that best represents your honest assessment of the business as "satisfactory" but you know most of the world will interpret it "this business is shit," then how honestly are your opinions really being expressed?

Now, you can argue that your truth is the only truth that matters to you. But when someone says it's an asshole thing to do, what they are saying is that they believe it's an asshole thing to focus only on how you perceive the truth, and not the facts of how that perception impacts others.

Communication isn't just about the person expressing themselves, how that messaging is interpreted matters as well. That's where just focusing on your own interpretation because you prefer it, to the detriment of others, can be seen as self-absorbed.

Now I say this as an unusual blunt person from a Nordic family who is very prone to saying what I perceive to be benign facts that frequently piss people off. I often have to put effort into understanding why someone would be offended by something I've said. But I *do* value the meaning that others perceive from the things I've said.

Raenia

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #161 on: September 07, 2022, 01:50:43 PM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.
The point is to be honest.  If you can't be honest, then don't fill out a review.  Being honest doesn't mean you're an asshole.

You're assuming that your interpretation of the ratings though defines what is "honest."

You can intend to be honest, but if how you say something is interpreted differently by the vast majority of people, are you really expressing yourself honestly?

I have many, many times said something here that I meant to be respectful, but that people interpreted as judgemental. Thankfully, in forum world, I have an opportunity to clarify my meaning. If you give a 3 star rating because you believe that best represents your honest assessment of the business as "satisfactory" but you know most of the world will interpret it "this business is shit," then how honestly are your opinions really being expressed?

Now, you can argue that your truth is the only truth that matters to you. But when someone says it's an asshole thing to do, what they are saying is that they believe it's an asshole thing to focus only on how you perceive the truth, and not the facts of how that perception impacts others.

Communication isn't just about the person expressing themselves, how that messaging is interpreted matters as well. That's where just focusing on your own interpretation because you prefer it, to the detriment of others, can be seen as self-absorbed.

Now I say this as an unusual blunt person from a Nordic family who is very prone to saying what I perceive to be benign facts that frequently piss people off. I often have to put effort into understanding why someone would be offended by something I've said. But I *do* value the meaning that others perceive from the things I've said.

To put it even more bluntly, if your waitress gets fired for your 3/5 "Satisfactory" review, she's not going to care much that you didn't mean to cause her harm.  Your intention is irrelevant when your actions have consequences to other people's livelihoods.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #162 on: September 07, 2022, 02:06:12 PM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.
The point is to be honest.  If you can't be honest, then don't fill out a review.  Being honest doesn't mean you're an asshole.

You're assuming that your interpretation of the ratings though defines what is "honest."

You can intend to be honest, but if how you say something is interpreted differently by the vast majority of people, are you really expressing yourself honestly?

I have many, many times said something here that I meant to be respectful, but that people interpreted as judgemental. Thankfully, in forum world, I have an opportunity to clarify my meaning. If you give a 3 star rating because you believe that best represents your honest assessment of the business as "satisfactory" but you know most of the world will interpret it "this business is shit," then how honestly are your opinions really being expressed?

Now, you can argue that your truth is the only truth that matters to you. But when someone says it's an asshole thing to do, what they are saying is that they believe it's an asshole thing to focus only on how you perceive the truth, and not the facts of how that perception impacts others.

Communication isn't just about the person expressing themselves, how that messaging is interpreted matters as well. That's where just focusing on your own interpretation because you prefer it, to the detriment of others, can be seen as self-absorbed.

Now I say this as an unusual blunt person from a Nordic family who is very prone to saying what I perceive to be benign facts that frequently piss people off. I often have to put effort into understanding why someone would be offended by something I've said. But I *do* value the meaning that others perceive from the things I've said.

To put it even more bluntly, if your waitress gets fired for your 3/5 "Satisfactory" review, she's not going to care much that you didn't mean to cause her harm.  Your intention is irrelevant when your actions have consequences to other people's livelihoods.

To be fair, it's a little more realistic that your waitress won't get a bonus if she doesn't get a certain percentage of perfect ratings. I doubt anyone is being fired over a single bad review, but many, many customer service businesses tether bonus pay to perfect reviews, which is still a substantial negative consequence for someone trying to leave an "honest" positive review, when less harm would be done by just *not* leaving a review at all.

Psychstache

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2022, 02:12:53 PM »

To put it even more bluntly, if your waitress gets fired for your 3/5 "Satisfactory" review, she's not going to care much that you didn't mean to cause her harm.  Your intention is irrelevant when your actions have consequences to other people's livelihoods.

To be fair, it's a little more realistic that your waitress won't get a bonus if she doesn't get a certain percentage of perfect ratings. I doubt anyone is being fired over a single bad review, but many, many customer service businesses tether bonus pay to perfect reviews, which is still a substantial negative consequence for someone trying to leave an "honest" positive review, when less harm would be done by just *not* leaving a review at all.

Real life example: bought a new car recently. The sales guy was fine, we negotiated a reasonable agreed upon price, he was a good communicator, and mostly everything was fine (transaction was a little slow, but I'm pretty sure that as the manager's fault).

If I give him anything other than 10/10 on all areas of ratings, he gets dinged by the dealership system. Was the service above and beyond perfect that I might naturally assign to a rating of 10/10? No. Was there anything that happened in the car buying process that meant I wanted him to get limited on any possible bonus and/or chewed out by his manger later? No. So 10/10 he gets and the nonsense continues.

Raenia

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2022, 02:15:24 PM »
...Meaning that, for reviews where you are choosing to give less than 5 stars over small things, you are at great risk of being an asshole.

No.  Being honest on the reviews doesn't make you an asshole.  It's far better than gaming the system as you suggest. 

Sorry, but not all people and/or businesses deserve to succeed.  Success must be earned.

I think you are missing the point. This has nothing to do with success, and also, rating scales have no inherent objective properties. When you rate how much you like something from 1 to 5, you have no way of confirming that the difference between 2 and 3 is the same as the difference between 3 and 4 and also, you have absolutely no way of confirming that your understanding of each of these ratings is the same as the next guy's. Making these numbers more or less meaningless.

However, what you CAN measure is how customers react to ratings, which is widely documented to be ridiculously skewed towards an all or nothing approach. It's either good - 5 stars, or it sucks - anything other than 5. You are not "rigging it" by accepting that this is how it is and that you are causing disproportionate damage to someone if you give them a low rating over something that is essentially a trivial matter and especially if you are literally giving someone a low rating because in your mind, 5 stars is only if it blew you away.

Not giving reviews because you think this is ridiculous is perfectly legit. But deliberately giving poor ratings to businesses that didn't actually do anything wrong is just...come on.
The point is to be honest.  If you can't be honest, then don't fill out a review.  Being honest doesn't mean you're an asshole.

You're assuming that your interpretation of the ratings though defines what is "honest."

You can intend to be honest, but if how you say something is interpreted differently by the vast majority of people, are you really expressing yourself honestly?

I have many, many times said something here that I meant to be respectful, but that people interpreted as judgemental. Thankfully, in forum world, I have an opportunity to clarify my meaning. If you give a 3 star rating because you believe that best represents your honest assessment of the business as "satisfactory" but you know most of the world will interpret it "this business is shit," then how honestly are your opinions really being expressed?

Now, you can argue that your truth is the only truth that matters to you. But when someone says it's an asshole thing to do, what they are saying is that they believe it's an asshole thing to focus only on how you perceive the truth, and not the facts of how that perception impacts others.

Communication isn't just about the person expressing themselves, how that messaging is interpreted matters as well. That's where just focusing on your own interpretation because you prefer it, to the detriment of others, can be seen as self-absorbed.

Now I say this as an unusual blunt person from a Nordic family who is very prone to saying what I perceive to be benign facts that frequently piss people off. I often have to put effort into understanding why someone would be offended by something I've said. But I *do* value the meaning that others perceive from the things I've said.

To put it even more bluntly, if your waitress gets fired for your 3/5 "Satisfactory" review, she's not going to care much that you didn't mean to cause her harm.  Your intention is irrelevant when your actions have consequences to other people's livelihoods.

To be fair, it's a little more realistic that your waitress won't get a bonus if she doesn't get a certain percentage of perfect ratings. I doubt anyone is being fired over a single bad review, but many, many customer service businesses tether bonus pay to perfect reviews, which is still a substantial negative consequence for someone trying to leave an "honest" positive review, when less harm would be done by just *not* leaving a review at all.

I was purposely exaggerating to make the point, but yes.  The main idea is that by sticking to one's beliefs about a "fair" rating system, one is causing material harm to people who one presumable doesn't intend to harm.  It is far better to just not leave a review at all (which is what I do unless something egregiously good or bad occurred).

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2022, 02:25:44 PM »

I was purposely exaggerating to make the point, but yes.  The main idea is that by sticking to one's beliefs about a "fair" rating system, one is causing material harm to people who one presumable doesn't intend to harm.  It is far better to just not leave a review at all (which is what I do unless something egregiously good or bad occurred).

I don't leave a lot of reviews except for product reviews on Amazon and I leave amazing reviews for new service businesses that I want to support that need to build their numbers.

I do, however, write A LOT of emails to companies advising them of my experiences and opinions of their business. I write many, many, many emails commending specific staff on their skills or efforts. Reviews are nice, but since a 5/5 means very little now, an email or phone call directly to someone's supervisor praising their work has a lot more impact.

I often do this with call center staff who solve my problems in a pleasant manner. If I feel really effectively helped by a call center staff person, I will always ask to speak to their manager and praise them profusely for their good work. I often have to wait on hold for awhile to do so, because even if I say it's for praise, an escalation is handled as if it's a complaint. It's worth it though, many of these call centers are located in places where positive feedback from a customer would be highly valuable, and it's something that never happens.

I also always send critical feedback by email instead of review because I know from experience that critical reviews just enrage people and feel unjust, while a polite, constructively critical e-mail can be very well received and even appreciated if it's genuinely helpful.

So yeah, I don't leave a ton of reviews, but I do give an enormous amount of customer feedback, 80% positive because I think most people feel under appreciated and respond really well to praise.

scottish

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #166 on: September 07, 2022, 03:08:38 PM »
This is something that would have really screwed me up if I worked on the customer service side.   "Whaddaya mean I have to get perfect reviews?  Nobody's perfect all the time!"    I'm with Steve on this one - people need to learn basic math.    And not learn it by rote, but actually understand it.

Until that happens - not holding my breath - it is what it is.   I generally only give reviews for really good results and they're five star, or really bad results and they're one star.

solon

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #167 on: September 07, 2022, 03:42:43 PM »
We went on a cruise this summer. Everything was fantastic. We had the same server all week, and at the end of the week he explained that we would be getting a survey, and if we didn't feel we could give him 10/10 on everything, please tell him now so he could fix it. I thought it was odd that he was explicitly asking for 10s.

On the survey we gave him 10s all the way down. The next question was, "Did any staff member ask you to give 10s?" What do you do with that? I didn't want to get him in trouble. If we picked yes, the next question was "Who?" with a dropdown box that listed all the staff members you had contact with!

So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #168 on: September 07, 2022, 05:05:41 PM »
This is something that would have really screwed me up if I worked on the customer service side.   "Whaddaya mean I have to get perfect reviews?  Nobody's perfect all the time!"    I'm with Steve on this one - people need to learn basic math.    And not learn it by rote, but actually understand it.

Until that happens - not holding my breath - it is what it is.   I generally only give reviews for really good results and they're five star, or really bad results and they're one star.

I'm pretty sure most people can count to 5.

This is a behavioural thing. Folks like Steve and many on this forum think about how they engage with the metric in the way that most reasonably represents their opinion. That's not actually the norm. Most people don't think that way, they think A LOT about how their rating will be perceived by the reader.

They want their positive review to be received well, or they want their negative review to hurt, hence extreme scoring.

It's not a comprehension problem, it's representative of what the most common behavioural motivators are.

ETA: I do find it endlessly amusing though that the more engineering-thinking types would see this as a math comprehension problem, because that's so unbelievably on point as to why their scoring system is so different from the norm.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 05:09:23 PM by Malcat »

gooki

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #169 on: September 07, 2022, 10:31:54 PM »
Quote
So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

I don't understand why anyone would compromise their ethics for a review.

Just be honest. If the business is stupid enough to fire good people, they'll eventually run out of good people to hire and go down the toilet. Not your problem.

From the consumer side, it's really disappointing going to 4.5 rated restaurants and getting average food a service. Same goes when buying products, its getting really hard to tell the difference between average and great products without buying both.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 10:34:55 PM by gooki »

havregryn

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #170 on: September 08, 2022, 12:28:42 AM »
Quote
So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

I don't understand why anyone would compromise their ethics for a review.

Just be honest. If the business is stupid enough to fire good people, they'll eventually run out of good people to hire and go down the toilet. Not your problem.

From the consumer side, it's really disappointing going to 4.5 rated restaurants and getting average food a service. Same goes when buying products, its getting really hard to tell the difference between average and great products without buying both.

So it's "compromising your ethics" if you just play some random social game with clicking some numbers, but treating actual living and breathing people as some kind of expendable material in your quest for accurate food reviews....that's just...no words.

Gremlin

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #171 on: September 08, 2022, 02:12:18 AM »
One problem with this is that I know of at least three organisations that gives "customer service bonuses" to the staff that score highest on these surveys.

Staff that tell customers that "I get reprimanded for any score less than 10" will always score higher than those who tell their customers "please rate my performance".  There's no reprimand - they just simply aren't in the running for the bonus.

It's not always the poor staff that are being stiffed.  Sometimes it's just the ones who are doing the right thing by the customer.

ATtiny85

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #172 on: September 08, 2022, 05:18:18 AM »
Quote
So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

I don't understand why anyone would compromise their ethics for a review.

Just be honest. If the business is stupid enough to fire good people, they'll eventually run out of good people to hire and go down the toilet. Not your problem.

From the consumer side, it's really disappointing going to 4.5 rated restaurants and getting average food a service. Same goes when buying products, its getting really hard to tell the difference between average and great products without buying both.

So it's "compromising your ethics" if you just play some random social game with clicking some numbers, but treating actual living and breathing people as some kind of expendable material in your quest for accurate food reviews....that's just...no words.

Mustachian

That’s one of the words that come to my mind. One tenet of it to me is working to make expenditures worth it. I think gooki hit on a very important point. If I am going to use reviews to help guide my choices on how I use my money, I’d like them to be accurate. The one way I have to help that situation is to ensure my reviews are accurate relative to my experience.


Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #173 on: September 08, 2022, 06:16:39 AM »
Quote
So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

I don't understand why anyone would compromise their ethics for a review.

Just be honest. If the business is stupid enough to fire good people, they'll eventually run out of good people to hire and go down the toilet. Not your problem.

From the consumer side, it's really disappointing going to 4.5 rated restaurants and getting average food a service. Same goes when buying products, its getting really hard to tell the difference between average and great products without buying both.

So it's "compromising your ethics" if you just play some random social game with clicking some numbers, but treating actual living and breathing people as some kind of expendable material in your quest for accurate food reviews....that's just...no words.

Mustachian

That’s one of the words that come to my mind. One tenet of it to me is working to make expenditures worth it. I think gooki hit on a very important point. If I am going to use reviews to help guide my choices on how I use my money, I’d like them to be accurate. The one way I have to help that situation is to ensure my reviews are accurate relative to my experience.

Again though, just because it's accurate to you doesn't mean it will be accurate for others.

If *for you* a 3/5 is satisfactory, that doesn't mean it's accurate for people reading it. Many people will read your review to mean "this place is shit, don't go here."

It's like if you're colour blind and most people aren't. For you it's brown but to almost everyone else it's red.

Reviews of people and businesses aren't going to ever be what you want them to be. 5/5 means good enough not to complain, that's just what it means now.

No one asked for it to be that way. That's just what it is.

Lol, add to that that you can pay for good reviews and to have bad reviews removed with a lot of services. Most notably RateMD, I get emails every month asking me if I want to pay $400/mo to have my bad reviews removed.

I also get emails from website management companies offering a service that sends my review link to patients, and anything below a 4/5 gets flagged and prompts me to contact the patient. Even if they write their review anonymously, I would know who they are because they clicked the link in an email sent from my company. So I would be able to step in and convince them not to post a bad review.

So for the low cost of ~10-15K/yr, I can dramatically improve how patients perceive me if I'm a shitty doctor.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 06:19:37 AM by Malcat »

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #174 on: September 08, 2022, 07:01:48 AM »
Reviews of people and businesses aren't going to ever be what you want them to be.

In the system you're proposing, this is certainly true.


5/5 means good enough not to complain, that's just what it means now.

No one asked for it to be that way. That's just what it is.

If we accept this as the way things are, then that means that we accept that this is what it always has to be.  It can never change . . . because we've changed our definitions to meet  "5 - average, anything else - shit" standard and any attempt to correct course is immediately thrown out.

I don't believe that people always rated average as perfect and considered anything but perfect to be shit.  This had to change over time, and it can change back.  Unless there's a social stigma and group of people fighting to keep things the way they are currently. . .

LennStar

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #175 on: September 08, 2022, 07:21:21 AM »
The last posts about services reminded me that they just got a huge kick in the ass by German judges. Like business model destroying.

Because there was a decision that negative reviews - even if they are detailed down to the chair that was broken - must be deleted if the company says the person writing the review was not their customer.

How do they know that? Well, the reviewer didn't put their real name (and maybe adress) in the review. If the scoring platform cannot get that from the reviewers, they have to remove it.

In short, only bad ratings will be there from people where the company you rated badly knows who you are and where you live.

I am sure that will work great!.

coppertop

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #176 on: September 08, 2022, 07:33:19 AM »
If anything less than "5 out of 5" means lousy service, then there should only be two choices available:  2 = "good" or 1 = "bad."  Otherwise, why have options 2, 3, or 4 at all? 

teen persuasion

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #177 on: September 08, 2022, 07:38:22 AM »
It's interesting to me that I may have been giving service providers anxiety with my ratings.  To me, a 4 is a good rating.  That's basically, "there was nothing wrong and it was overall a nice experience, but there wasn't anything exceptional, either."  Put another way, it's "I will definitely keep my business with you and if anyone asks me about you I'd tell them I'm happy, but I'm not going to scream from the rooftops, unsolicited, about how utterly fantastic you are."

The idea that someone would see my 4s and wonder what went wrong is surprising.  But probably won't change my behavior as ti feels dishonest to me to give a 5 for "not any problems, nothing to worry about, job well done" type experiences. 

I suppose in a perfect work, 3 would be average, but I can't make the leap to 5/5 being average.  Average or average+ gets a 4.
This is my response, too.
In my use of 5 point scales, 5 is excellent service, not average.  I'm much more likely to give 4 for average to average+.
On a 10 point scale, I'm even more unlikely to give all 10s unless everything was incredibly exceptional.  When I mentioned this thread to DS4 (gen Z) he said he rarely gives all top marks on surveys, too.

The point of a survey is to get feedback from customers on both what you are doing right/well, and where you need change/improvement.  If every response is 5 stars because of fear of hurting staff with a less than glowing review, then the feedback is useless!  You learn nothing from the survey.

Of course, often the individual questions are worded in such a way that I can't give feedback on the things that *need* improvement.  Then I have to assume the point of the survey is not actually to get true feedback, but to use for self promotion - "Look, all 5 star reviews, everyone LOVES us!"  Umm, nope, I'm not going to falsely hype your business for you, I'm going to honestly review your business.

Sibley

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #178 on: September 08, 2022, 07:58:49 AM »
I find this whole discussion hilarious. There are situations in which the actions people take do not make logical sense BECAUSE they're not based in logic. Those actions make a whole lot more sense when you view them from the perspective in which they are based.

To take this to extreme examples:
If you put people in an abusive environment, they develop behaviors that help them survive in that environment. It's a real issue that people who were abused as children have to deal with - they simply do not behave in socially acceptable or advantageous ways BECAUSE those behaviors would have got them additional abuse as children. Therefore, when you're trying to figure out why Suzie is lying about getting all her work done by 5, then staying until 10pm, the answer isn't logical, unless you view it from the perspective of the environment where that behavior was formed. Suzie is conditioned that she can't tell the truth because the truth would have resulted in being beaten or whatever the abuse was. And breaking that conditioning is really hard.

So, all you engineers and those who think like engineers, you will find it easier if you just consciously acknowledge that its not logical and decide if you're going to comply with the illogical rules or not, with the possible consequences in mind. If you decide not to, then you need to accept that you will be triggering consequences for yourself or others as a result, and you need to accept that other people are going to think poorly of you because of it.

slappy

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #179 on: September 08, 2022, 08:09:33 AM »
We went on a cruise this summer. Everything was fantastic. We had the same server all week, and at the end of the week he explained that we would be getting a survey, and if we didn't feel we could give him 10/10 on everything, please tell him now so he could fix it. I thought it was odd that he was explicitly asking for 10s.

On the survey we gave him 10s all the way down. The next question was, "Did any staff member ask you to give 10s?" What do you do with that? I didn't want to get him in trouble. If we picked yes, the next question was "Who?" with a dropdown box that listed all the staff members you had contact with!

So we lied twice: once by giving all 10s, and again by saying no one asked us for 10s.

Technically I suppose he didn't ask you to give the 10. He just explained the process and asked for feedback ahead of time. It's a fine line we walk in the customer service world. It's a very frustrating process because many clients will give an 8 or a 9 thinking that it's a great score, but according to the company it's not. And it's not really the clients responsibility to have to figure out the company's scoring standards. So there has to be some level of educating the client ahead of time, in a somewhat compliant manner.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #180 on: September 08, 2022, 08:26:01 AM »
Reviews of people and businesses aren't going to ever be what you want them to be.

In the system you're proposing, this is certainly true.


5/5 means good enough not to complain, that's just what it means now.

No one asked for it to be that way. That's just what it is.

If we accept this as the way things are, then that means that we accept that this is what it always has to be.  It can never change . . . because we've changed our definitions to meet  "5 - average, anything else - shit" standard and any attempt to correct course is immediately thrown out.

I don't believe that people always rated average as perfect and considered anything but perfect to be shit.  This had to change over time, and it can change back.  Unless there's a social stigma and group of people fighting to keep things the way they are currently. . .

I'M NOT PROPOSING ANYTHING!

This is not my system, I didn't make it, I didn't design it, and I don't like it. But it IS the way the public uses ratings.

Since the dawn of the rating system that I'm part of, people have always rated at the extremes. I've consulted for several medical/dental marketing companies and they all say the same thing.

This is just how people use rating systems, especially when they know the person/business they're rating will see it.

Businesses didn't start this pattern, they responded to it.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2022, 08:42:54 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #182 on: September 08, 2022, 08:45:32 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #183 on: September 08, 2022, 08:52:57 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

No, not at all.  I'm surprised that it bothers me so much to conform to the popular but illogical practice of subverting the whole point of a multi-option ratings system.

When everyone else is doing something differently, it's usually a me problem.

glacio09

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #184 on: September 08, 2022, 08:55:43 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

It's also a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I started by rating things according to how I felt (4s are generally my go to, I'm fairly easy going). Over the past few years, however, I've come across more and more people who get graded on a 5 or nothing scale. Because I'm a classic screw the man millennial, someone would have to spit in my drink before I would want to mess with their lively hood. I now almost exclusively give 5s. Do I cringe at it? Yes. But did we end up in this situation because I gave slightly higher scores to begin with or because companies scrutinized my 4 too much? I don't know.

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #185 on: September 08, 2022, 09:14:53 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

No, not at all.  I'm surprised that it bothers me so much to conform to the popular but illogical practice of subverting the whole point of a multi-option ratings system.

When everyone else is doing something differently, it's usually a me problem.

I'm far more bothered by the corrupt manipulation of ratings myself.

GuitarStv

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #186 on: September 08, 2022, 09:19:52 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

No, not at all.  I'm surprised that it bothers me so much to conform to the popular but illogical practice of subverting the whole point of a multi-option ratings system.

When everyone else is doing something differently, it's usually a me problem.

I'm far more bothered by the corrupt manipulation of ratings myself.

I guess that's the benefit of this new system . . . the ratings are already so corrupt as to be without value.  So damage from bad actors purposely falsifying reviews is limited.  :P

Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #187 on: September 08, 2022, 09:29:24 AM »
This rating extremism hurts my soul.  I had no idea that metrics were so closely tied to my personal identity, but apparently, here we are.  :P

You're surprised that people care about how they're perceived?

This is the most normal, common, predictable human behaviour there is.

No, not at all.  I'm surprised that it bothers me so much to conform to the popular but illogical practice of subverting the whole point of a multi-option ratings system.

When everyone else is doing something differently, it's usually a me problem.

I'm far more bothered by the corrupt manipulation of ratings myself.

I guess that's the benefit of this new system . . . the ratings are already so corrupt as to be without value.  So damage from bad actors purposely falsifying reviews is limited.  :P

They're not without value at all. They provide a lot of valuable data, it just doesn't mean what you, personally expect it to mean.

To people who rate that way, the subsequent data results and what they mean are self-evident.

For example,. 4.5/5 star doctor who has 100+ reviews is a doc who has almost entirely perfect ratings with a few terrible ratings here and there.

This is someone who the vast majority of people are quite satisfied with, and who can't please everyone all the time. This is someone who is reliably a solid professional.

If they are having the majority of their bad reviews removed though, then that picture is totally false. Because with their removed reviews, they might be closer to a 3/5, which means that many people aren't at all happy with them.

The intact data might not mean what you expect them to mean, but they are excellent data. They are generally consistent and faithfully represent what most people actually think, except for the rate weirdos who grade 3/5 when they're actually happy with the service. Lol.

Consistent reliable data that reveals unexpected interpretations is not bad data. Corrupted data where results are very picked to generate a inaccurate interpretation? That is bad data.

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #188 on: September 08, 2022, 09:39:15 AM »
I find this whole discussion hilarious. There are situations in which the actions people take do not make logical sense BECAUSE they're not based in logic. Those actions make a whole lot more sense when you view them from the perspective in which they are based.

To take this to extreme examples:
If you put people in an abusive environment, they develop behaviors that help them survive in that environment. It's a real issue that people who were abused as children have to deal with - they simply do not behave in socially acceptable or advantageous ways BECAUSE those behaviors would have got them additional abuse as children. Therefore, when you're trying to figure out why Suzie is lying about getting all her work done by 5, then staying until 10pm, the answer isn't logical, unless you view it from the perspective of the environment where that behavior was formed. Suzie is conditioned that she can't tell the truth because the truth would have resulted in being beaten or whatever the abuse was. And breaking that conditioning is really hard.

So, all you engineers and those who think like engineers, you will find it easier if you just consciously acknowledge that its not logical and decide if you're going to comply with the illogical rules or not, with the possible consequences in mind. If you decide not to, then you need to accept that you will be triggering consequences for yourself or others as a result, and you need to accept that other people are going to think poorly of you because of it.

I guess I'm just not convinced that 4/5 or 9/10 is "triggering consequences" in most environments.  And it seems like enough people responding (though I certainly acknowledge these forums aren't a representative sample of Everyone), that I wonder if that isn't exaggerated, and then also self-enforcing because of that exaggeration.  As more people say, "you just CAN'T give anything less than perfect", more people will move to that essentially binary system of all/shit. 


How I rate also depends on what I'm rating.  On Amazon, I'm happy to give a 4/5 for "nothing wrong with this".  And it seems plenty of other people are as well, despite what this thread suggests, because there are plenty of 4/5 reviews that read exactly like that.  People are saying, "No, this binary system of highest or awful is the way people use the system" are stating that like fact, but I'm not so sure.  This thread actually made me ask on a group chat of 6 friends and only 1 said she does it that way.  Again, not a respresentative sample of The Whole World, but there is a housewife, a woman working on her MFA in writing (so about as far from an engineer as you can get!), a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!), a nurse who is very much a salt of the earth, get-her-hands-dirty type, and someone with a Ivy League masters degree.  So, somewhat diverse, though age and race are similar.   

If I'm rating one person, and that person is an employee (so the receptionist at the Dr.'s office or the restaurant server, not the Dr. herself), I'm more likely to be generous, or to not leave a rating at all unless things were either exceptionally great, or specifically bad. 


Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #189 on: September 08, 2022, 09:45:12 AM »
I find this whole discussion hilarious. There are situations in which the actions people take do not make logical sense BECAUSE they're not based in logic. Those actions make a whole lot more sense when you view them from the perspective in which they are based.

To take this to extreme examples:
If you put people in an abusive environment, they develop behaviors that help them survive in that environment. It's a real issue that people who were abused as children have to deal with - they simply do not behave in socially acceptable or advantageous ways BECAUSE those behaviors would have got them additional abuse as children. Therefore, when you're trying to figure out why Suzie is lying about getting all her work done by 5, then staying until 10pm, the answer isn't logical, unless you view it from the perspective of the environment where that behavior was formed. Suzie is conditioned that she can't tell the truth because the truth would have resulted in being beaten or whatever the abuse was. And breaking that conditioning is really hard.

So, all you engineers and those who think like engineers, you will find it easier if you just consciously acknowledge that its not logical and decide if you're going to comply with the illogical rules or not, with the possible consequences in mind. If you decide not to, then you need to accept that you will be triggering consequences for yourself or others as a result, and you need to accept that other people are going to think poorly of you because of it.

I guess I'm just not convinced that 4/5 or 9/10 is "triggering consequences" in most environments.  And it seems like enough people responding (though I certainly acknowledge these forums aren't a representative sample of Everyone), that I wonder if that isn't exaggerated, and then also self-enforcing because of that exaggeration.  As more people say, "you just CAN'T give anything less than perfect", more people will move to that essentially binary system of all/shit. 


How I rate also depends on what I'm rating.  On Amazon, I'm happy to give a 4/5 for "nothing wrong with this".  And it seems plenty of other people are as well, despite what this thread suggests, because there are plenty of 4/5 reviews that read exactly like that.  People are saying, "No, this binary system of highest or awful is the way people use the system" are stating that like fact, but I'm not so sure.  This thread actually made me ask on a group chat of 6 friends and only 1 said she does it that way.  Again, not a respresentative sample of The Whole World, but there is a housewife, a woman working on her MFA in writing (so about as far from an engineer as you can get!), a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!), a nurse who is very much a salt of the earth, get-her-hands-dirty type, and someone with a Ivy League masters degree.  So, somewhat diverse, though age and race are similar.   

If I'm rating one person, and that person is an employee (so the receptionist at the Dr.'s office or the restaurant server, not the Dr. herself), I'm more likely to be generous, or to not leave a rating at all unless things were either exceptionally great, or specifically bad.

Note, I don't think I've ever said that only perfect scores are counted as positive, I said extreme scores. So very high scores.

I even pushed back when someone jokingly said that people get fired for anything short of a 5/5.

I can say that I have worked with several marketing firms that treat the data this way. If a score is mid-range, it generally indicates client dissatisfaction, as confirmed by marketing research.

No, not everyone rates this way, but the majority do, and many might not even be all that aware that they do it, because it just seems to be a natural thing that people do. If it required much thought, then it wouldn't be common. It's just a reflexive behaviour for most.

Sibley

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #190 on: September 08, 2022, 09:55:50 AM »
I find this whole discussion hilarious. There are situations in which the actions people take do not make logical sense BECAUSE they're not based in logic. Those actions make a whole lot more sense when you view them from the perspective in which they are based.

To take this to extreme examples:
If you put people in an abusive environment, they develop behaviors that help them survive in that environment. It's a real issue that people who were abused as children have to deal with - they simply do not behave in socially acceptable or advantageous ways BECAUSE those behaviors would have got them additional abuse as children. Therefore, when you're trying to figure out why Suzie is lying about getting all her work done by 5, then staying until 10pm, the answer isn't logical, unless you view it from the perspective of the environment where that behavior was formed. Suzie is conditioned that she can't tell the truth because the truth would have resulted in being beaten or whatever the abuse was. And breaking that conditioning is really hard.

So, all you engineers and those who think like engineers, you will find it easier if you just consciously acknowledge that its not logical and decide if you're going to comply with the illogical rules or not, with the possible consequences in mind. If you decide not to, then you need to accept that you will be triggering consequences for yourself or others as a result, and you need to accept that other people are going to think poorly of you because of it.

I guess I'm just not convinced that 4/5 or 9/10 is "triggering consequences" in most environments.  And it seems like enough people responding (though I certainly acknowledge these forums aren't a representative sample of Everyone), that I wonder if that isn't exaggerated, and then also self-enforcing because of that exaggeration.  As more people say, "you just CAN'T give anything less than perfect", more people will move to that essentially binary system of all/shit. 


How I rate also depends on what I'm rating.  On Amazon, I'm happy to give a 4/5 for "nothing wrong with this".  And it seems plenty of other people are as well, despite what this thread suggests, because there are plenty of 4/5 reviews that read exactly like that.  People are saying, "No, this binary system of highest or awful is the way people use the system" are stating that like fact, but I'm not so sure.  This thread actually made me ask on a group chat of 6 friends and only 1 said she does it that way.  Again, not a respresentative sample of The Whole World, but there is a housewife, a woman working on her MFA in writing (so about as far from an engineer as you can get!), a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!), a nurse who is very much a salt of the earth, get-her-hands-dirty type, and someone with a Ivy League masters degree.  So, somewhat diverse, though age and race are similar.   

If I'm rating one person, and that person is an employee (so the receptionist at the Dr.'s office or the restaurant server, not the Dr. herself), I'm more likely to be generous, or to not leave a rating at all unless things were either exceptionally great, or specifically bad.

Of course "triggering consequences" will vary. Every single action, nonaction, and word we speak has consequences. Those consequences may well be inconsequential, but they do exist and sometimes the consequences are significant. The key is to understand, as best you can, what the consequences may be. Most of this happens subconsciously of course.

I also don't like the rating extremes, and I solve that by frequently not rating at all. A nonresponse has a different consequence (usually none) than a response of 3/5 (usually negative in retail situations). I'm also aware that someone who goes to the trouble to leave a review is more likely to be dissatisfied (where leaving a review takes additional effort).

Villanelle

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #191 on: September 08, 2022, 10:10:58 AM »
I find this whole discussion hilarious. There are situations in which the actions people take do not make logical sense BECAUSE they're not based in logic. Those actions make a whole lot more sense when you view them from the perspective in which they are based.

To take this to extreme examples:
If you put people in an abusive environment, they develop behaviors that help them survive in that environment. It's a real issue that people who were abused as children have to deal with - they simply do not behave in socially acceptable or advantageous ways BECAUSE those behaviors would have got them additional abuse as children. Therefore, when you're trying to figure out why Suzie is lying about getting all her work done by 5, then staying until 10pm, the answer isn't logical, unless you view it from the perspective of the environment where that behavior was formed. Suzie is conditioned that she can't tell the truth because the truth would have resulted in being beaten or whatever the abuse was. And breaking that conditioning is really hard.

So, all you engineers and those who think like engineers, you will find it easier if you just consciously acknowledge that its not logical and decide if you're going to comply with the illogical rules or not, with the possible consequences in mind. If you decide not to, then you need to accept that you will be triggering consequences for yourself or others as a result, and you need to accept that other people are going to think poorly of you because of it.

I guess I'm just not convinced that 4/5 or 9/10 is "triggering consequences" in most environments.  And it seems like enough people responding (though I certainly acknowledge these forums aren't a representative sample of Everyone), that I wonder if that isn't exaggerated, and then also self-enforcing because of that exaggeration.  As more people say, "you just CAN'T give anything less than perfect", more people will move to that essentially binary system of all/shit. 


How I rate also depends on what I'm rating.  On Amazon, I'm happy to give a 4/5 for "nothing wrong with this".  And it seems plenty of other people are as well, despite what this thread suggests, because there are plenty of 4/5 reviews that read exactly like that.  People are saying, "No, this binary system of highest or awful is the way people use the system" are stating that like fact, but I'm not so sure.  This thread actually made me ask on a group chat of 6 friends and only 1 said she does it that way.  Again, not a respresentative sample of The Whole World, but there is a housewife, a woman working on her MFA in writing (so about as far from an engineer as you can get!), a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!), a nurse who is very much a salt of the earth, get-her-hands-dirty type, and someone with a Ivy League masters degree.  So, somewhat diverse, though age and race are similar.   

If I'm rating one person, and that person is an employee (so the receptionist at the Dr.'s office or the restaurant server, not the Dr. herself), I'm more likely to be generous, or to not leave a rating at all unless things were either exceptionally great, or specifically bad.

Note, I don't think I've ever said that only perfect scores are counted as positive, I said extreme scores. So very high scores.

I even pushed back when someone jokingly said that people get fired for anything short of a 5/5.

I can say that I have worked with several marketing firms that treat the data this way. If a score is mid-range, it generally indicates client dissatisfaction, as confirmed by marketing research.

No, not everyone rates this way, but the majority do, and many might not even be all that aware that they do it, because it just seems to be a natural thing that people do. If it required much thought, then it wouldn't be common. It's just a reflexive behaviour for most.

Does "mid-range" mean 3/5?  Or 2-4/5? 

LennStar

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #192 on: September 08, 2022, 10:12:47 AM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Villanelle

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #193 on: September 08, 2022, 10:17:03 AM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar


Sibley

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #194 on: September 08, 2022, 11:20:54 AM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar

Ooh, ooh, I know that!!!

In certain socio-economic/cultural classes, women are Not to Wear White before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Its basically an exclusionary middle to upper class WASP social rule. If you don't know the rule, or otherwise do not comply with the rule for whatever reason, you could be looked down upon by the arbitrary appointed Important Women.

I grew up with that rule, though not really enforced. No idea if it's a thing in the UK, though decent chance it at least used to be a thing.

ChickenStash

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #195 on: September 08, 2022, 01:10:18 PM »
I've always been in the camp where a 5/5 or 10/10 simply means the product or service met whatever goal was promised. If I buy a widget that promises to do a thing and it does that thing then 5/5. If I hire someone to do a task and they do it then 5/5. When that breaks down, the scores drop.

Most of my ratings lately have been for tickets I've had to open with vendor support desks. If they resolve the issue within the SLA, I've rated a 5/5 because they did exactly what they promised and what I expected. There's been a few that went to a 3/5 because they weren't responsive or didn't read the notes. There's been a few I'd rate with a negative number if the system would allow it.


Metalcat

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #196 on: September 08, 2022, 01:22:37 PM »

Does "mid-range" mean 3/5?  Or 2-4/5?

I can't answer that, it's not exact. For one person a 4/5 is a good score, for another it's an indication that they aren't happy with some specific aspect of their experience, but aren't pissed off. From my experience, it's far more the latter than the former.

If I got a 4/5 for staff, for example, it was pretty much guaranteed that there was some form of tension with the staff, perhaps not all of the staff, but something went wrong enough for them to dock a point.

Every once in awhile, my chronically late colleague gets a 4/5 for punctuality, and usually when she's be egregiously late, like well over an hour.

The reviews almost always come with a written part, so you can often see exactly the attitude that correlates with the score. The data is all there to see.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 01:25:07 PM by Malcat »

havregryn

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #197 on: September 08, 2022, 04:20:24 PM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar

Ooh, ooh, I know that!!!

In certain socio-economic/cultural classes, women are Not to Wear White before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Its basically an exclusionary middle to upper class WASP social rule. If you don't know the rule, or otherwise do not comply with the rule for whatever reason, you could be looked down upon by the arbitrary appointed Important Women.

I grew up with that rule, though not really enforced. No idea if it's a thing in the UK, though decent chance it at least used to be a thing.

Does it mean no white whatsoever, as in, you shouldn't be wearing a white blouse with suit pants, or does it mean no wearing all white? Also, would that mean you would not be able to wear a white coat or jacket during winter at all?
I am asking because I grew up in rural and suburban (suburban = bad in Europe) communities in Eastern Europe but there was also a kinda unspoken rule that you would only wear an all-white or dominantly white outfit like a white dress or white pants during summer.  I can't even explain it, it was just a thing you picked up on.
But white winter coats and winter jackets were seen as "classy".

I just find it interesting, I imagine we would have picked it up from TV, but it was really widespread, I literally remember wondering if white pants were acceptable in September (by October they would most definitely not be, September was still summer weather so it was hard to tell, but we don't have Labour day in September, we have it in May).


charis

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #198 on: September 08, 2022, 05:06:49 PM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar

Ooh, ooh, I know that!!!

In certain socio-economic/cultural classes, women are Not to Wear White before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Its basically an exclusionary middle to upper class WASP social rule. If you don't know the rule, or otherwise do not comply with the rule for whatever reason, you could be looked down upon by the arbitrary appointed Important Women.

I grew up with that rule, though not really enforced. No idea if it's a thing in the UK, though decent chance it at least used to be a thing.

Does it mean no white whatsoever, as in, you shouldn't be wearing a white blouse with suit pants, or does it mean no wearing all white? Also, would that mean you would not be able to wear a white coat or jacket during winter at all?
I am asking because I grew up in rural and suburban (suburban = bad in Europe) communities in Eastern Europe but there was also a kinda unspoken rule that you would only wear an all-white or dominantly white outfit like a white dress or white pants during summer.  I can't even explain it, it was just a thing you picked up on.
But white winter coats and winter jackets were seen as "classy".

I just find it interesting, I imagine we would have picked it up from TV, but it was really widespread, I literally remember wondering if white pants were acceptable in September (by October they would most definitely not be, September was still summer weather so it was hard to tell, but we don't have Labour day in September, we have it in May).

That's actually an outdated, even though unwritten, rule, so if you still follow it, it just means you are old.  If you are young, hot, and or moderately fashionable (not me), you can wear white well after Labor Day even if WASPy.  But white is still generally seen as mostly a warm weather outfit color.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 05:09:08 PM by charis »

Villanelle

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Re: New Work Trend - Quiet Quitting
« Reply #199 on: September 08, 2022, 05:49:49 PM »
Quote
a person who grew up with very traditional values and norms (e.g. would never wear white after labor day!)
Huh? Could you explain that? @Villanelle

Which part?  The bit about wearing white, or the whole thing? @LennStar

Ooh, ooh, I know that!!!

In certain socio-economic/cultural classes, women are Not to Wear White before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Its basically an exclusionary middle to upper class WASP social rule. If you don't know the rule, or otherwise do not comply with the rule for whatever reason, you could be looked down upon by the arbitrary appointed Important Women.

I grew up with that rule, though not really enforced. No idea if it's a thing in the UK, though decent chance it at least used to be a thing.

Does it mean no white whatsoever, as in, you shouldn't be wearing a white blouse with suit pants, or does it mean no wearing all white? Also, would that mean you would not be able to wear a white coat or jacket during winter at all?
I am asking because I grew up in rural and suburban (suburban = bad in Europe) communities in Eastern Europe but there was also a kinda unspoken rule that you would only wear an all-white or dominantly white outfit like a white dress or white pants during summer.  I can't even explain it, it was just a thing you picked up on.
But white winter coats and winter jackets were seen as "classy".

I just find it interesting, I imagine we would have picked it up from TV, but it was really widespread, I literally remember wondering if white pants were acceptable in September (by October they would most definitely not be, September was still summer weather so it was hard to tell, but we don't have Labour day in September, we have it in May).

My understanding is that it is significant white.  IOW, you can wear a print that has a small amount of white in it, but not white pants.

As for that white winter coat, I believe in fashion circles there is a color referred to as "winter white", which is just slightly off-white. 

In defense of my friends, I am certain she wouldn't be judgmental about someone wearing white today.  She may not wear it herself, but she's not snobby about it.  I mentioned it as a brief way of saying, "very old-school, traditional, WASPy values".