New Climate Legislation: Solution for what?

[mathlete]

I still don't understand how the money is being spent. Apparently I'm not alone:

https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2022/08/climate-policy-numbers.html

Haha, grumpy is right.

IMO starting out with the WSJ quote about projected global temp reductions is extremely uncharitable. This bill is projected to be responsible for about a quarter of the US's planned 2030 carbon emissions reductions. And the US emits only about 14% of the world's carbon.

Stemming the tide of global climate change requires global cooperation. The US can't pass legislation to fix it for everyone. This is why the Paris agreement is so important. Countries come together, set and agree to targets, and then try to hit those targets. If the US bails, it gives everyone else permission to bail. Especially countries that haven't yet reaped the benefits of industrialization like the United States has.

It is astounding that we are asked to spend gargantuan amounts of money, and severely reduce economic prosperity

Weird that someone complaining that we don't have enough of the "right" numbers to look at here would demure when it comes to defining what a gargantuan amount of money is, or a severe reduction in economic prosperity is.

Even pro small-government think tanks don't think this has a huge impact on GDP in the long term. And it's what? $25b-$35b a year over ten years? And it's more than paid for (this bill reduces the federal deficit - which should be shouted from the rooftops at every opportunity IMO). And it's paid for by mega corps and an increased IRS budget going after people who avoid taxes. So if the GDP is barely affected, and middle class people get tax rebates, and it's paid for by mega corps and people who were previously shorting Uncle Sam, and it helps us march towards a cleaner and more energy independent future, who is less prosperous?

[achvfi]

I highly recommend following video if you are trying to understand it, it analysis various provisions of the bill. This bill is quite comprehensive and well put together.  Most of these details are not well covered in the media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw5zzrOpo2s

Quote from video :
"The thing about this bill is that it's going to keep having a huge impact on the country for many many years and, mostly, we will not even notice. That's what happens with almost all good legislation. Of course, there will also be some bits of this that won't work as intended and they'll probably be big news stories. When you've got like 150 different pieces of a bill, not everything will be perfect! But it is quite a big deal for me to see America making these investments...even if I'm not gung-ho on all of them, and some of them legit piss me off...it's an amazing step that I did not think we would be making.
"

[mathlete]

I highly recommend following video if you are trying to understand it, it analysis various provisions of the bill. This bill is quite comprehensive and well put together.  Most of these details are not well covered in the media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw5zzrOpo2s

Quote from video :
"The thing about this bill is that it's going to keep having a huge impact on the country for many many years and, mostly, we will not even notice. That's what happens with almost all good legislation. Of course, there will also be some bits of this that won't work as intended and they'll probably be big news stories. When you've got like 150 different pieces of a bill, not everything will be perfect! But it is quite a big deal for me to see America making these investments...even if I'm not gung-ho on all of them, and some of them legit piss me off...it's an amazing step that I did not think we would be making.
"

Good video. And I agree that it is both big, and also that we may not even notice what it's doing. Sometimes I'll be at some public place and there will be a badge stamped on the side of a building or on some other structure that says that this was built under the Works Progress Administration. Sometimes I think we should bring that kind of stuff back. So that people are reminded that what they take for granted in every day life came about because we all came together and decided to fund the solution to a problem. But we seldom think of things that way. In the view of many, the state of the world is just a natural consequence and all government (or other people in general) does is just get in the way. The ACA was huge and flawed, imperfect, and for a long time, unpopular. But in 2010, we took for granted that 18% of people lacked insurance, and today, we take for granted that only 11% lack insurance. That 7% decline, representing millions of people getting healthcare, is the result of funding a big, imperfect project.

As an aside; as frustrating as it can be that you need a supermajority to get anything more than revenue changes done in the US, I actually kind of love this in some sense. American companies are truly fantastic at innovating and solving problems. And often times, innovating and solving problems goes hand in hand with making a lot of money. But sometimes, it doesn't. Sometimes, buying back shares or paying smart people to come up with complex tax avoidance ideas is the mathematically superior way to return value to shareholders. It isn't a capital investment that makes society better, or provides more value to their customers. I don't blame corporations for this, because it's their job to make money. What tax credits do though, is dangle a whole hell of a lot of money out there and says, "If you solve these problems that we know you're smart enough to solve, there's a huge reward in it for you."

[jpdx]

Thank you for sharing that video. It's well worth watching. Also, that's the guy from Sci Show!

[Fomerly known as something]

The problem is America was designed too late.  In some places there are things they can do to meaningfully help.

Many communities are too spread out on a practical level.  And several cities now, or places that a walkable/bikeable lifestyle could exist are simply beyond the practical means of many people living there, certainly those who are trying to save substantial sums of money.  There are some exceptions to that, but it is true.

You are ignoring the part where be bulldozed a bunch of density after WW2, tore up the largest electric streetcar network on the planet, and then made it illegal rebuild the density. The USA wasn't "designed too late." It was re-designed poorly with Euclidean zoning and massive subsidies for GM.

EDITed to add - and almost everyone across the political spectrum is the problem and standing in the way of progress. For every YIMBY you can find 100 NIMBYs. Even with an army of lawyers and PR consultants I probably couldn't build a 5-over-1 in my neighborhood. If I did by some miracle succeed the cost of the lawyers and PR firms would only drive up the price for no benefit.

Oh yes.  I live in NIMBY land.  Marin County (north of the golden gate) where people post about how it’s the deer’s land and how 4 plexs are evil on my next door constantly.

[partgypsy]

The problem is America was designed too late.  In some places there are things they can do to meaningfully help.

Many communities are too spread out on a practical level.  And several cities now, or places that a walkable/bikeable lifestyle could exist are simply beyond the practical means of many people living there, certainly those who are trying to save substantial sums of money.  There are some exceptions to that, but it is true.

You are ignoring the part where be bulldozed a bunch of density after WW2, tore up the largest electric streetcar network on the planet, and then made it illegal rebuild the density. The USA wasn't "designed too late." It was re-designed poorly with Euclidean zoning and massive subsidies for GM.

EDITed to add - and almost everyone across the political spectrum is the problem and standing in the way of progress. For every YIMBY you can find 100 NIMBYs. Even with an army of lawyers and PR consultants I probably couldn't build a 5-over-1 in my neighborhood. If I did by some miracle succeed the cost of the lawyers and PR firms would only drive up the price for no benefit.

. Really good point. In my town the former trolly stops are now wide medians. It would be so cool if we got the trolleys back..

[mathlete]

Oh yes.  I live in NIMBY land.  Marin County (north of the golden gate) where people post about how it’s the deer’s land and how 4 plexs are evil on my next door constantly.

Ahaha! Marin County is truly beautiful. But I love the implication from NIMBYs that they were the absolute LAST people who got to move in before the beauty was ruined. One more 4Plex and it's all over! Incidentally this all makes their homes really really valuable. Much more than the price they purchased at. But I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with it. :)

[JupiterGreen]

I highly recommend following video if you are trying to understand it, it analysis various provisions of the bill. This bill is quite comprehensive and well put together.  Most of these details are not well covered in the media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw5zzrOpo2s

Quote from video :
"The thing about this bill is that it's going to keep having a huge impact on the country for many many years and, mostly, we will not even notice. That's what happens with almost all good legislation. Of course, there will also be some bits of this that won't work as intended and they'll probably be big news stories. When you've got like 150 different pieces of a bill, not everything will be perfect! But it is quite a big deal for me to see America making these investments...even if I'm not gung-ho on all of them, and some of them legit piss me off...it's an amazing step that I did not think we would be making.
"

Exceptional video, I'll definitely do my part and pass this video along to others. Thank you!

[lifeisshort123]

I hope the tax credits will actually make enough sense that they motivate positive changes and behavior.  As I recall some of these things were tried in the 2009 Obama Stimulus bill and some were runaway hits, and others were mixed successes. 

[PDXTabs]

I hope the tax credits will actually make enough sense that they motivate positive changes and behavior.  As I recall some of these things were tried in the 2009 Obama Stimulus bill and some were runaway hits, and others were mixed successes.

There are waiting lists for electric cars right now. There are more people that want electric cars than there are electric cars to buy. People don't need tax credits to incentivize this behavior. Why, the fuck, should the US government subsidize them with taxpayer money?

The way that the tax credits are written will however incentivize the US manufacture of batteries, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how you look at trade wars. EDITed: I guess that this changed in the final language: https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/17/business/electric-vehicle-tax-credit-how-qualify/index.html

[TomTX]

I'm noticing at the bottom of the CNBC link: "Up to $14,000 in rebates for efficient appliances." Is the government really going to buy me an induction stove?

Up to $840 toward an induction stove, presuming you meet the income limits. A quick search around here shows starting prices for a standalone induction oven/range at around $1100, where an otherwise similar conventional electric costs under $500.

Since I can pick up a single-hob induction hotplate for around $50 (retail) - going induction should add less than $200 to the retail cost of the induction oven/range.  Someone is making big profits off the induction oven/range.