Author Topic: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions  (Read 5403 times)

vand

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Despite the apparently healthy job numbers coming out each month, we've all see all these jobseekers videos telling us how broken the job market seems, how they've been laid off and haven't been able to get rehired for months, with candidates have to jump through hoops and navigate ridiculous hiring processes to get interviews.

Well, we've just got confirmation

"The department's estimate for total payroll employment for the period from April 2023 to March 2024 was lowered by 818,000. The revision represented a total downward change of about 0.5% and means that monthly job gains during the period averaged roughly 174,000, compared to the previously reported figure of 242,000."

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-job-growth-year-through-march-was-far-less-than-estimated-2024-08-21/


That's more than just a rounding error. US Labor Department should be renamed US Propaganda Department imo. 

I've been one of those saying that the job market is nowhere near as good as the headline numbers would suggest.  Getting hired is difficult even in a good job market; in a difficult one which may be about to get more difficult yet it can be really tough. I do sincerely wish anyone looking for work "in this economy" the best of luck, because the market is, if not broken, certainly dysfunctional.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 04:09:59 AM by vand »

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2024, 08:58:52 AM »
https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/whats-up-with-those-revised-job-numbers?

Quote
First of all, I highly, highly doubt anyone in the government is faking the jobs numbers. This would be really hard to do, since it would involve a whole bunch of government workers acting in collusion, which would require a paper trail. But more importantly, there’s just no motive for doing that. Why would the Bureau of Labor Statistics publish deliberately fake numbers in March and then tell you the real ones in August? “Aww darn it! We tried to fake the numbers, and we almost got away with it, but our master plan was foiled by our own regularly scheduled revision process! CURSES!” That is not how things work.

So if it’s not a conspiracy, is it the result of gross incompetence? Probably not — the U.S. government statistical agencies are generally regarded as the best in the world, either in the public or the private sector. But getting accurate data in a country of 330 million people is a tough undertaking for even the best team. This year’s revisions are bigger than in recent years, but they’re hardly unprecedented

Propaganda department? Really? Cut the conspiratorial nonsense.

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2024, 09:26:31 AM »
https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/whats-up-with-those-revised-job-numbers?

Quote
First of all, I highly, highly doubt anyone in the government is faking the jobs numbers. This would be really hard to do, since it would involve a whole bunch of government workers acting in collusion, which would require a paper trail. But more importantly, there’s just no motive for doing that. Why would the Bureau of Labor Statistics publish deliberately fake numbers in March and then tell you the real ones in August? “Aww darn it! We tried to fake the numbers, and we almost got away with it, but our master plan was foiled by our own regularly scheduled revision process! CURSES!” That is not how things work.

So if it’s not a conspiracy, is it the result of gross incompetence? Probably not — the U.S. government statistical agencies are generally regarded as the best in the world, either in the public or the private sector. But getting accurate data in a country of 330 million people is a tough undertaking for even the best team. This year’s revisions are bigger than in recent years, but they’re hardly unprecedented

Propaganda department? Really? Cut the conspiratorial nonsense.

You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

And, this on top of the monthly revisions they do each month to the previous 2 months - of which something like 11 of the last 12 have been negative.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 09:32:42 AM by vand »

bacchi

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2024, 09:34:32 AM »
https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/whats-up-with-those-revised-job-numbers?

Quote
First of all, I highly, highly doubt anyone in the government is faking the jobs numbers. This would be really hard to do, since it would involve a whole bunch of government workers acting in collusion, which would require a paper trail. But more importantly, there’s just no motive for doing that. Why would the Bureau of Labor Statistics publish deliberately fake numbers in March and then tell you the real ones in August? “Aww darn it! We tried to fake the numbers, and we almost got away with it, but our master plan was foiled by our own regularly scheduled revision process! CURSES!” That is not how things work.

So if it’s not a conspiracy, is it the result of gross incompetence? Probably not — the U.S. government statistical agencies are generally regarded as the best in the world, either in the public or the private sector. But getting accurate data in a country of 330 million people is a tough undertaking for even the best team. This year’s revisions are bigger than in recent years, but they’re hardly unprecedented

Propaganda department? Really? Cut the conspiratorial nonsense.

You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

Looking at total payroll employment numbers is nowhere near the same as revenue or cash flow. There's not a central database where every business in American records their job listings. It's an inherently squishy process. These numbers are always adjusted.

Second, as mentioned, if this was a propaganda department, it's the worst one ever. No propaganda department would adjust their numbers 2.5 months before an election.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 09:36:57 AM by bacchi »

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2024, 09:45:06 AM »
Here's the backward revisions they made for since Jun 2023 - by the 2nd revision they had revised down by an average of 14%




vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2024, 09:48:41 AM »
https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/whats-up-with-those-revised-job-numbers?

Quote
First of all, I highly, highly doubt anyone in the government is faking the jobs numbers. This would be really hard to do, since it would involve a whole bunch of government workers acting in collusion, which would require a paper trail. But more importantly, there’s just no motive for doing that. Why would the Bureau of Labor Statistics publish deliberately fake numbers in March and then tell you the real ones in August? “Aww darn it! We tried to fake the numbers, and we almost got away with it, but our master plan was foiled by our own regularly scheduled revision process! CURSES!” That is not how things work.

So if it’s not a conspiracy, is it the result of gross incompetence? Probably not — the U.S. government statistical agencies are generally regarded as the best in the world, either in the public or the private sector. But getting accurate data in a country of 330 million people is a tough undertaking for even the best team. This year’s revisions are bigger than in recent years, but they’re hardly unprecedented

Propaganda department? Really? Cut the conspiratorial nonsense.

You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

Looking at total payroll employment numbers is nowhere near the same as revenue or cash flow. There's not a central database where every business in American records their job listings. It's an inherently squishy process. These numbers are always adjusted.

Second, as mentioned, if this was a propaganda department, it's the worst one ever. No propaganda department would adjust their numbers 2.5 months before an election.

I accept its not as easy, but to suggest their model is adequate or accurate is misguided. If the model underreported job creation, you could be sure that they would immediately fix that, but if it over-reports it.. well, let's not worry too much about that, and instead just revise it down at a later date. There's no economic grounds to justify that - it's political.

bacchi

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2024, 09:57:19 AM »
https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/whats-up-with-those-revised-job-numbers?

Quote
First of all, I highly, highly doubt anyone in the government is faking the jobs numbers. This would be really hard to do, since it would involve a whole bunch of government workers acting in collusion, which would require a paper trail. But more importantly, there’s just no motive for doing that. Why would the Bureau of Labor Statistics publish deliberately fake numbers in March and then tell you the real ones in August? “Aww darn it! We tried to fake the numbers, and we almost got away with it, but our master plan was foiled by our own regularly scheduled revision process! CURSES!” That is not how things work.

So if it’s not a conspiracy, is it the result of gross incompetence? Probably not — the U.S. government statistical agencies are generally regarded as the best in the world, either in the public or the private sector. But getting accurate data in a country of 330 million people is a tough undertaking for even the best team. This year’s revisions are bigger than in recent years, but they’re hardly unprecedented

Propaganda department? Really? Cut the conspiratorial nonsense.

You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

Looking at total payroll employment numbers is nowhere near the same as revenue or cash flow. There's not a central database where every business in American records their job listings. It's an inherently squishy process. These numbers are always adjusted.

Second, as mentioned, if this was a propaganda department, it's the worst one ever. No propaganda department would adjust their numbers 2.5 months before an election.

I accept its not as easy, but to suggest their model is adequate or accurate is misguided. If the model underreported job creation, you could be sure that they would immediately fix that, but if it over-reports it.. well, let's not worry too much about that, and instead just revise it down at a later date. There's no economic grounds to justify that - it's political.

So someone messed up and reported the revised numbers early, which in turn makes the current administration look bad? Or are you suggesting that someone at BLS is working for the Republicans and did this deliberately?

You really need to look at other periods to see how those were revised, both post-contraction and at the tipping point of a recession. Also, looking at a period when interest rates were similarly rising would be helpful.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 10:01:09 AM by bacchi »

bacchi

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2024, 10:23:51 AM »

Quote from: https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2022/01/revisions-to-employment-data-during-2020-and-2021/
Consider January 2021: While employment growth was initially estimated at 49,000 persons, during the next two months that figure was revised first to 166,000 and then to 233,000 persons. Revisions to employment data are a matter of common practice. As the BLS states: “Monthly revisions result from additional reports received from businesses and government agencies since the last published estimates and from the recalculation of seasonal factors.” In fact, during 2021, the BLS revised up eight monthly employment figures and it revised both up and down two monthly figures.

Numbers were revised upwards in 2021 during the covid recovery. Is that biased? How does that square with the revision downward?

The 2020 numbers were revised upwards also. Is that a pro-Trump bias?

More important is that BLS quote in the middle. It's also here:

Quote from: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
(Monthly revisions result from additional reports received from businesses and government agencies since the last published estimates and from the recalculation of seasonal factors.

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2024, 12:25:46 PM »

Quote from: https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2022/01/revisions-to-employment-data-during-2020-and-2021/
Consider January 2021: While employment growth was initially estimated at 49,000 persons, during the next two months that figure was revised first to 166,000 and then to 233,000 persons. Revisions to employment data are a matter of common practice. As the BLS states: “Monthly revisions result from additional reports received from businesses and government agencies since the last published estimates and from the recalculation of seasonal factors.” In fact, during 2021, the BLS revised up eight monthly employment figures and it revised both up and down two monthly figures.

Numbers were revised upwards in 2021 during the covid recovery. Is that biased? How does that square with the revision downward?

The 2020 numbers were revised upwards also. Is that a pro-Trump bias?

More important is that BLS quote in the middle. It's also here:

Quote from: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
(Monthly revisions result from additional reports received from businesses and government agencies since the last published estimates and from the recalculation of seasonal factors.

I'm just pointing out how the job market is much weaker than many people would assume if they look at the numbers that initially come out and grab the most attention and the politicians would have you believe.  Things are tough out there, and only getting tougher.

Yes, there have been revisions in the past, both up and down, but the current downward revision is the largest since 2009 - a fairly watershed year for employment.

FIRE 20/20

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2024, 12:28:03 PM »

That's more than just a rounding error. US Labor Department should be renamed US Propaganda Department imo. 


Can you expand on this statement a bit?  Do you really, actually believe that there are people in the US Labor Department who are intentionally reporting incorrect employment data for political purposes?  If so this is a significant claim that has been debunked many times.  If you have information that contradicts that, you should get in contact with an investigative journalist with your evidence to expose it.  Or file to claim your whistleblower payment for exposing waste, fraud, and abuse.  If you don't have any actual evidence, then you might want to do a little research to see why this is such an easily debunked conspiracy theory.
Here are just a small sample of sources for information on whether or not the Bureau of Labor Statistics manipulates their numbers (tldr; they don't):

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/business/economy/unemployment-labor-department-data-politics.html
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/jul/25/donald-trump-jr/donald-trump-jr-says-unemployment-rates-are-manipu/
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/did-the-census-bureau-really-fake-the-jobs-report/281648/
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/no-evidence-jobs-data-was-manipulated/
https://x.com/NickTimiraos/status/1825966091354648849
https://x.com/NickTimiraos/status/1825979550985040279

If you're just saying, "the BLS could do a much better job of capturing US employment data", then you're in good company!  There are many economists who have decades-old proposals for improving the accuracy and timeliness of the data.  You could take a look at their proposals and add your thoughts.  But that's very different from saying that they're propagandists.  That's just slander against good, hard-working people doing a difficult job. 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 12:33:21 PM by FIRE 20/20 »

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2024, 12:47:34 AM »
Your government does a lousy job but rather than have a problem with that you have a problem with my pointing it out?  What the fuck is that about?

Do I believe they are actual propagandists? No of course not. Do I believe at least part of their role is to cheer-lead whoever is incumbent by ignoring inconvenient shortcomings in their models, acquiescencing to whatever political and economic narrative is prevalent (lower for longer Vs inflation is the evil that must be fought Vs whatever we are shifting to now) , and working as a tool to extend the systematic expansion of government? You fucking better believe I do.

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2024, 01:23:40 AM »
Companies increasingly gaming the system to appear more successful and busy recruiting that they really are resulting in the rise of Ghost jobs ads are one important aspect of the systematic overestimation of the strength of the labour market ; over the last 5 years the hiring rate has halved, falling from 0.8 hires per job posting to 0.4.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-FAYkoAeTVU

Ron Scott

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2024, 05:54:07 AM »
Do I believe at least part of their role is to cheer-lead whoever is incumbent by ignoring inconvenient shortcomings in their models, acquiescencing to whatever political and economic narrative is prevalent (lower for longer Vs inflation is the evil that must be fought Vs whatever we are shifting to now) , and working as a tool to extend the systematic expansion of government? You fucking better believe I do.

I see that you’ve gotten yourself all apoplectic and i get that you think there’s political bias involved. But i don’t get your logic.

I don’t see how you’re claim that the number are overstated are the result of “political” bias when they support the incumbent (vs. supporting a D or an R, which would typically be the case with political bias). And even if it were political, why are political operatives, who pushed the false narrative of higher job creation, now changing stripe and saying they were wrong—as stated above, a couple months before the election? You and i know they would simply continue the false narrative of happy job numbers.

Your theory doesn't make sense and should be rejected.

twinstudy

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2024, 06:08:55 AM »
Do I believe at least part of their role is to cheer-lead whoever is incumbent by ignoring inconvenient shortcomings in their models, acquiescencing to whatever political and economic narrative is prevalent (lower for longer Vs inflation is the evil that must be fought Vs whatever we are shifting to now) , and working as a tool to extend the systematic expansion of government? You fucking better believe I do.

I see that you’ve gotten yourself all apoplectic and i get that you think there’s political bias involved. But i don’t get your logic.

I don’t see how you’re claim that the number are overstated are the result of “political” bias when they support the incumbent (vs. supporting a D or an R, which would typically be the case with political bias). And even if it were political, why are political operatives, who pushed the false narrative of higher job creation, now changing stripe and saying they were wrong—as stated above, a couple months before the election? You and i know they would simply continue the false narrative of happy job numbers.

Your theory doesn't make sense and should be rejected.

Yes. Occam's Razor and all that.

bacchi

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2024, 09:59:52 AM »
Another possibility is that anti-bureaucracy staff have taken control of the BLS. By releasing dramatically revised numbers, they convince people that the entire system is rigged and biased. This leads to calls to audit or get rid of the entire department. This will of course cause lay offs but these operatives are convinced enough to accept unemployment. Think of it as an inside hit job working alongside the starve-the-beast strategy*.



The BLS uses surveys, from both employers and households, that are eventually trued up with state unemployment insurance numbers. The business survey doesn't include contractors, while the household survey does, and responding to a business survey is not required except in a few states. The numbers get more accurate (but never exact) as the states report and the surveys arrive.





* "the most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history" -- Bruce Bartlett

Telecaster

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2024, 10:05:27 AM »
Your government does a lousy job but rather than have a problem with that you have a problem with my pointing it out?  What the fuck is that about?

Do I believe they are actual propagandists? No of course not. Do I believe at least part of their role is to cheer-lead whoever is incumbent by ignoring inconvenient shortcomings in their models, acquiescencing to whatever political and economic narrative is prevalent (lower for longer Vs inflation is the evil that must be fought Vs whatever we are shifting to now) , and working as a tool to extend the systematic expansion of government? You fucking better believe I do.

If their job is to present fake data to help the incumbent, then why would they revise their figures downward right before the election?


lhamo

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2024, 10:14:59 AM »
Another possibility is that anti-bureaucracy staff have taken control of the BLS. By releasing dramatically revised numbers, they convince people that the entire system is rigged and biased. This leads to calls to audit or get rid of the entire department. This will of course cause lay offs but these operatives are convinced enough to accept unemployment. Think of it as an inside hit job working alongside the starve-the-beast strategy*.



The BLS uses surveys, from both employers and households, that are eventually trued up with state unemployment insurance numbers. The business survey doesn't include contractors, while the household survey does, and responding to a business survey is not required except in a few states. The numbers get more accurate (but never exact) as the states report and the surveys arrive.





* "the most pernicious fiscal doctrine in history" -- Bruce Bartlett

Maybe there are people below her throwing spanners in the gears, but the current Commissioner of the BLS does not seem the type to be engineering the dissolution of the agency or government in general -- career in public service (mostly at the census bureau) with a PhD in labor economics

https://www.bls.gov/bls/senior_staff/mcentarfer.htm
https://erikamcentarfer.net/cv/

She was only confirmed in January so maybe these revisions to the stats are because she came in and found some questionable stuff that needed to be cleared up, and it took a few months to do so.  Not atypical in a big bureacracy.

Telecaster

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2024, 10:28:46 AM »
She was only confirmed in January so maybe these revisions to the stats are because she came in and found some questionable stuff that needed to be cleared up, and it took a few months to do so.  Not atypical in a big bureacracy.

Another thing that is getting lost is the job report was still really good.  Job growth was still much stronger than pre-pandemic.   The notion the job market is weak is nonsense.   

Something that needs to be pointed out is the employers don't send employment data to the government.  All they provide is the amount of payroll tax paid.  There is nothing about full time, hourly, full time, part time, etc. None of that.  The government has to estimate the employment data.   There is nothing wrong with changing your estimate based on new information.   In fact, that's how it is supposed to work.


Ron Scott

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2024, 10:54:20 AM »
Another possibility is that anti-bureaucracy staff have taken control of the BLS.

So there’s an “anti-bureaucracy” faction WITHIN THE “BUREAU”, who somehow gains managerial control of the bureau, creates a furor—-and no one knows of the takeover or reports on it?

These stories just get weirder…

bacchi

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2024, 01:52:54 PM »
Another possibility is that anti-bureaucracy staff have taken control of the BLS.

So there’s an “anti-bureaucracy” faction WITHIN THE “BUREAU”, who somehow gains managerial control of the bureau, creates a furor—-and no one knows of the takeover or reports on it?

These stories just get weirder…

It was a tongue in cheek explanation of how an agency could be both pro and anti administration during the same administration.

partgypsy

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2024, 09:38:41 PM »
I do feel there was a employee staff shortage during and post COVID, a lot of hiring, and now there may be an adjustment period coming. And I do wonder (worry) how ai, chatgpt may be used to shrink the actual job pool.

twinstudy

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2024, 09:44:35 PM »
I do feel there was a employee staff shortage during and post COVID, a lot of hiring, and now there may be an adjustment period coming. And I do wonder (worry) how ai, chatgpt may be used to shrink the actual job pool.

There's no evidence of AI (or any technology in the past) shrinking the job pool. Typewriters didn't make secretaries extinct; nor did Dragon Dictation. Their job role just changes to embrace the new technologies. AI-assisted discovery hasn't made junior lawyers extinct; they can now do more work overall, making discovery disputes scale up in complexity (and cost!) but without costing any jobs.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2024, 10:29:31 AM »
I'd like to believe that, twinstudy, but I don't have that same optimism.  I watched a panel of experts discuss the future of AI, and one was very frank:  he said the first question business executives always ask him is, How many employees can I fire?

I think business is very pro-AI for that very reason.  I think the next decade is going to be tough for those seeking good paying jobs with benefits because those are the most coveted but quickly disappearing.

MrGreen

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2024, 10:45:03 PM »
BLS routinely has yearly revisions of half a million jobs. That's why they're estimated. Yawn.

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2024, 04:41:48 AM »
I'd like to believe that, twinstudy, but I don't have that same optimism.  I watched a panel of experts discuss the future of AI, and one was very frank:  he said the first question business executives always ask him is, How many employees can I fire?

I think business is very pro-AI for that very reason.  I think the next decade is going to be tough for those seeking good paying jobs with benefits because those are the most coveted but quickly disappearing.

Agreed.  In my industry we are trying to automate jobs away and also going through another cycle of outsourcing and undercover monthly layoffs (every other Thursday for the past year now spread out just enough to avoid WARN so as not to alarm the shareholders).  I don't think the numbers are deliberately fudged by BLS, but I also believe the job market is very weak for a specific sector - and companies are trying to disguise layoffs and posting and re-posting positions that will never be filled.  White collar professional jobs with tech skills are in very short supply and have been for the past year. 

Ron Scott

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2024, 07:52:51 AM »
I'd like to believe that, twinstudy, but I don't have that same optimism.  I watched a panel of experts discuss the future of AI, and one was very frank:  he said the first question business executives always ask him is, How many employees can I fire?

I think business is very pro-AI for that very reason.  I think the next decade is going to be tough for those seeking good paying jobs with benefits because those are the most coveted but quickly disappearing.

Agreed.  In my industry we are trying to automate jobs away and also going through another cycle of outsourcing and undercover monthly layoffs (every other Thursday for the past year now spread out just enough to avoid WARN so as not to alarm the shareholders).  I don't think the numbers are deliberately fudged by BLS, but I also believe the job market is very weak for a specific sector - and companies are trying to disguise layoffs and posting and re-posting positions that will never be filled.  White collar professional jobs with tech skills are in very short supply and have been for the past year.

It seems we are just starting to see AI-led changes in the job market.

AI tools perform and assist in data entry, entry-level financial annalysis, and customer service. And they are improving productivity in marketing departments with automated consumer analytics and content generation. The work of many business “creatives” will increasingly be augmented and replaced by AIs that generate text and images at massive scale and speed.

Many industries employ “professional experts” and AI is making headway there because, as we all know, experts often disagree and behave inconsistently. This is true in insurance underwriting and paralegal work. Watch for AI to give vastly more consistent work output that keeps getting more and more accurate as errors are detected and coded out.

A buddy, a radiologist, told me most of his work will be done better by AIs in 5 years. These tools can detect abnormalities in x-rays, CAT scans and MRIs. Assist doctors (with “second opinions”) at first, replace them for routine work next…then what? (Also, AI is pretty good with basic diagnosis…and getting really good at many aspects of drug discovery.)

I’m guessing today’s better educators become educational managers, while AI takes the critical job of educating and training individuals with individual programs designed specifically for varying learning styles.

It’s gonna be wild.

mathlete

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2024, 09:35:16 AM »
We should applaud the adjustment. It shows transparency. If it were propaganda, why would they correct it?

The BLS, and the Census Bureau produce some of the best data out there. And they put it out for free. If you have access to better data, call up every Fortune 500 company and offer to sell it to them. I guarantee you, they'd be very interested.

theninthwall

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2024, 10:00:25 AM »
We should applaud the adjustment. It shows transparency.

^ This. Critics seize on any imperfection, correction or change in direction as incompetency. The classic example is the 'flip-flopping' politician, when critics will be so aghast that a person could change their mind. I want representatives who move with the latest data, attitudes and expectations of their constituency.

twinstudy

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2024, 10:30:17 AM »
I'd like to believe that, twinstudy, but I don't have that same optimism.  I watched a panel of experts discuss the future of AI, and one was very frank:  he said the first question business executives always ask him is, How many employees can I fire?

I think business is very pro-AI for that very reason.  I think the next decade is going to be tough for those seeking good paying jobs with benefits because those are the most coveted but quickly disappearing.

Agreed.  In my industry we are trying to automate jobs away and also going through another cycle of outsourcing and undercover monthly layoffs (every other Thursday for the past year now spread out just enough to avoid WARN so as not to alarm the shareholders).  I don't think the numbers are deliberately fudged by BLS, but I also believe the job market is very weak for a specific sector - and companies are trying to disguise layoffs and posting and re-posting positions that will never be filled.  White collar professional jobs with tech skills are in very short supply and have been for the past year.

It seems we are just starting to see AI-led changes in the job market.

AI tools perform and assist in data entry, entry-level financial annalysis, and customer service. And they are improving productivity in marketing departments with automated consumer analytics and content generation. The work of many business “creatives” will increasingly be augmented and replaced by AIs that generate text and images at massive scale and speed.

Many industries employ “professional experts” and AI is making headway there because, as we all know, experts often disagree and behave inconsistently. This is true in insurance underwriting and paralegal work. Watch for AI to give vastly more consistent work output that keeps getting more and more accurate as errors are detected and coded out.

A buddy, a radiologist, told me most of his work will be done better by AIs in 5 years. These tools can detect abnormalities in x-rays, CAT scans and MRIs. Assist doctors (with “second opinions”) at first, replace them for routine work next…then what? (Also, AI is pretty good with basic diagnosis…and getting really good at many aspects of drug discovery.)

I’m guessing today’s better educators become educational managers, while AI takes the critical job of educating and training individuals with individual programs designed specifically for varying learning styles.

It’s gonna be wild.

People make the claim about every technological development, yet unemployment has stubbornly refused to go up.

Big tech is a good thing overall - it allows those with skill and resources to better leverage their own productivity.

And it helps people all down the spectrum of employment too. Plenty of people who are efficient at turning a profit as Uber drivers - at least, they make more than min wage.

What tech does is it rewards efficiency, which at the end of the day can only be a good thing.

GilesMM

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2024, 10:54:36 AM »
A government report with errors?? How can this be???

Paper Chaser

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2024, 11:03:59 AM »
My understanding is that the jobs number is then used in other data calculations like personal savings rate, productivity, and Gross Domestic Income, etc. So, there should be other revisions in these downstream categories which changes the overall economic picture outside of simply an error with jobs calculation.

vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2024, 03:26:25 PM »
Job market deterioration shows little sign of stopping

Aug 23:
"We do not seek or welcome further cooling in labor market conditions."  - J Powell

https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/powell20240823a.htm

Sept 4:
JOLTs report comes in below consensus, with downward revision to prior month

Job openings, a measure of labor demand, had fallen by 237,000 to 7.673 million on the last day of July, the lowest level since January 2021, the Labor Department's Bureau of Labor Statistics said in its Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey, or JOLTS report, on Wednesday. Data for June was revised lower to show 7.910 million unfilled positions instead of the previously reported 8.184 million.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-job-openings-fall-3-12-year-low-july-2024-09-04/


Sept 6:
NFPs comes in below consensus again, with more large downward revision to June and July:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-job-growth-misses-expectations-august-unemployment-rate-slips-42-2024-09-06/
Aug 142k vs 160k initial

I'm just looking at the revisions they've made and they are absolutely shocking, especially to the original June 2024 number.


Jul 114k -> 89k 1st revision

The Jun 2024 number was originally reported as 209k, then revised to 199k on first revision, then down to 108k as part of the annual adjustment, then just revised down to 61k..

I mean, how do you go from an initial estimate of 209k down to an new revision of 61k..

Pretty clear that in spite Powell's wishes, the Labor market is continuing to worsen.


vand

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2024, 02:38:20 AM »
Another massive miss - Just 12k jobs added in Oct as an initial estimate
Sept first revision takes off 31k from the initial estimate
Aug 2nd revision takes off a huge 81k - more than 50%

https://www.forexfactory.com/news/1312097-the-us-employment-situation-october-2024

But I'm being paranoid and there's nothing to see, so move along!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 02:51:57 AM by vand »

GilesMM

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2024, 08:01:33 AM »
The latest jobs report is skewed by strikes and storms. The job market is still almost overheating. Glad to see some lower numbers.

obstinate

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2024, 09:13:44 AM »
People will really be like, "I don't like inflation" and also "If unemployment is north of 0.25% the economy is doomed" at the same time.

MasterStache

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2024, 09:25:07 AM »
Another massive miss - Just 12k jobs added in Oct as an initial estimate
Sept first revision takes off 31k from the initial estimate
Aug 2nd revision takes off a huge 81k - more than 50%

https://www.forexfactory.com/news/1312097-the-us-employment-situation-october-2024

But I'm being paranoid and there's nothing to see, so move along!

I think your reaction(s) seem more inline with an argument from incredulity. If you want a more in-depth understanding of how estimates are made and why revisions are necessary and sometimes very large this does a pretty good of detailing it.

vand

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2024, 02:03:30 PM »
The latest jobs report is skewed by strikes and storms. The job market is still almost overheating. Glad to see some lower numbers.

The fallout from the storms and strikes were already reflected in the heavily reduced estimates, which were then still missed

If you mean the job market for government positions is overheated then you might be right, but actual real private sector jobs fell last month. The only jobs that were created last month were government jobs.

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2024, 05:19:28 PM »
That probably means the nongovernment jobs take a month to be added in.

vand

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2024, 01:38:11 AM »
That probably means the nongovernment jobs take a month to be added in.

Nope.
The birth/death model is what drives the numbers, and it seems increasingly unfit for purpose.

swashbucklinstache

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2024, 08:34:06 AM »
Edit: To soften this and give grace, on reflection, let me acknowledge up front that OP actually reads like: nervous about the job market and exasperated at accuracy of models expressed through a lens of distrust or lack of faith in government instead of base conspiracy theorist.
--
We can have conversations about if the models are good enough, should change directionally, and if the labor market is good but I mean no one is going to be eager to engage with statements like this.
Quote
That's more than just a rounding error. US Labor Department should be renamed US Propaganda Department imo.

Quote
You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

I know people who work on these models and have worked alongside them in similar roles. They use their education and decades of experience to constantly improve them and are always open to feedback and improvement ideas. Conspiratorial nonsense from people seemingly unqualified to speak on the matters barely merits an eyeroll.

Just for funOthers gave you links to how these numbers are created, which makes estimates much harder than financials modeling, and why revisions are necessary. From random googling there are more than a thousand people in the US job market for every Alphabet employee in the world. If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 19.992%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

It's admittedly just accounting magic, but it hasn't been 2 weeks since Alphabet did just this.https://archive.ph/tZdJk
Quote
Alphabet Revises 2022 Financials, Cutting Google Cloud’s Reported Losses 35%... As a result of the changes, Alphabet filed revised historical numbers for the divisions. Google Cloud’s operating loss for 2022 was reduced by 35% to $1.9 billion from $2.9 billion...While the accounting changes don’t improve Google Cloud’s reported revenue, which reflects its market share in cloud, the lower losses could improve its reputation on Wall Street and within the company.

Zillow just got done losing 1/3 of a billion dollars in one quarter and firing 25% of their staff because their staff got a model wrong. Maybe we should screech about how zestimates are propaganda and the private industry can't be trusted to make models!!!!!11!!!1!!!!!

You're always welcome to use https://www.bls.gov/bls/api_features.htm to suggest better models and share with the class. If you can use even just their reported data to predict the future better than they can you'll be rich.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2024, 02:21:30 PM by swashbucklinstache »

vand

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2024, 02:48:44 PM »
Edit: To soften this and give grace, on reflection, let me acknowledge up front that OP actually reads like: nervous about the job market and exasperated at accuracy of models expressed through a lens of distrust or lack of faith in government instead of base conspiracy theorist.
--
We can have conversations about if the models are good enough, should change directionally, and if the labor market is good but I mean no one is going to be eager to engage with statements like this.
Quote
That's more than just a rounding error. US Labor Department should be renamed US Propaganda Department imo.

Quote
You think that somehow overestimating your growth by 40% was just a honest shortfall of their model?  If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 12%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

I know people who work on these models and have worked alongside them in similar roles. They use their education and decades of experience to constantly improve them and are always open to feedback and improvement ideas. Conspiratorial nonsense from people seemingly unqualified to speak on the matters barely merits an eyeroll.

Just for funOthers gave you links to how these numbers are created, which makes estimates much harder than financials modeling, and why revisions are necessary. From random googling there are more than a thousand people in the US job market for every Alphabet employee in the world. If Apple or Alphabet came back next year and said "Sorry, our mistake, we didn't grow by 20% like we said, we only grew by 19.992%" last year" what do you think that would do to their reputation?

It's admittedly just accounting magic, but it hasn't been 2 weeks since Alphabet did just this.https://archive.ph/tZdJk
Quote
Alphabet Revises 2022 Financials, Cutting Google Cloud’s Reported Losses 35%... As a result of the changes, Alphabet filed revised historical numbers for the divisions. Google Cloud’s operating loss for 2022 was reduced by 35% to $1.9 billion from $2.9 billion...While the accounting changes don’t improve Google Cloud’s reported revenue, which reflects its market share in cloud, the lower losses could improve its reputation on Wall Street and within the company.

Zillow just got done losing 1/3 of a billion dollars in one quarter and firing 25% of their staff because their staff got a model wrong. Maybe we should screech about how zestimates are propaganda and the private industry can't be trusted to make models!!!!!11!!!1!!!!!

You're always welcome to use https://www.bls.gov/bls/api_features.htm to suggest better models and share with the class. If you can use even just their reported data to predict the future better than they can you'll be rich.

Sure, here's a better model: whatever the initial reported BLS number is, revised it down by a third.

Not even being facetious.

I get that Americans are proud and patriotic about their country and their economy, and there is almost a "fake it till you make it" culture where exageration is deemed acceptable so long as you are on course and heading in the right direction.   

I'm not particularly worried, nervous, or whatever you are implying. I'm just pointing out that the labour market is so much weaker than if you just look at the headline numbers each month coming in and "beating expectations". 

For me a part of self-sufficiency, financial independence, or just being a shrewd person is that you learn to read between the headlines and form your own opinions, regardless of what everyone else might be telling you.

Not to get too political, but it's this bullshit culture that Wall Street cheers while Main Street sneers that swept your incoming President into power despite things - "on paper" - being better than ever.

mathlete

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2024, 08:06:04 AM »
Okay Shrewd guy, back test your 1/3rd revision theory on multiple years of data and report you results back.

We're waiting :)

mathlete

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2024, 10:50:33 AM »
For me a part of self-sufficiency, financial independence, or just being a shrewd person is that you learn to read between the headlines and form your own opinions, regardless of what everyone else might be telling you.

Also just as a more general statement, this kind of talk is basically the most mainstream, popular thing you can say right now.

Spotify packaged together, "you have to read between the headlines and form your own opinions" and gave it a $200 million contract. It's called The Joe Rogan Experience.

I actually *do* read between the headlines. It's just that most of the time, doing so reveals a pretty boring story that largely comports with what very trustworthy institutions like the BLS are saying. Let me show you what this looks like for me:

Spoiler: show
Level Setting

You said that the Labor Department should be renamed the propaganda dept. The reasoning for this is the published preliminary revision below.

Source: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesprelbmk.htm

A downward revision of 818K is bad. But lets make one thing clear: They're estimating total employment, not job growth. Job growth is the first derivative of total employment, so we get that, too. But it's a number that falls out of the true number they're trying to estimate. When we acknowledge that, the revision is 0.5%, not 40%. Still not great, but lets be clear about what we're talking about. You could take a second or third derivative here - say, acceleration in job growth or jerk in job growth, and the numbers could look even more off, but it doesn't really say anything about the whole situation.

It's also worth noting that they published this preliminary revision out of season. Usually, these come out in Jan/February. Why would they do that if they're a propaganda machine? Because they know that the Federal Reserve sets monetary policy, and Congress sets fiscal policy, in part based on what these reports say. Given that we've been managing a pretty tricky economic recovery for 4 years, it's best that policymakers know about this stuff as soon as possible. This is a good thing.

Now lets get Socratic.

Are these revisions consistently bad?

Luckily, the BLS maintains an archive of these annual revisions.

Source: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesbmkarch.htm

I looked at the last 8 years of reports and pulled out the magnitude of the revision. Remember, this is the percentage difference in the total US employment between the monthly, sample based surveys that inform the regular monthly job reports, and the more comprehensive annual survey.

- 0.2%
+0.4%
+0.3%
- 0.2%
- 0.3%
- 0.0%
+0.1%
- 0.1%

So no. The revisions are not consistently negative. Not even during the COVID recovery era. And more importantly, they *are* consistently close to 0%.

Another important question to ask,

If an estimate of a 9 figure number is accurate within +/- 0.5% of the actual number, is this estimate useful for policymaking?

Yes.

But maybe the revision is inaccurate, too. Maybe the numbers are all garbage and they've been cooking the books at the BLS forever. Ever considered that?

Okay, if the employment situation is dramatically worse than the numbers implied by the jobs report, it should show up in other places, right? How about in weekly new unemployment claims:



This chart basically tells the commonly reported story - lots of people went on unemployment during COVID, but the situation has really been pretty good for the past 2 or 3 years, with weekly unemployment claims consistently below 250K.

For reference, the current weekly unemployment claim numbers are basically the same as what they were before the pandemic. In 2008-2010, the last time that pretty much everyone agreed the economy was really bad, the weekly numbers were consistently 2X-3X higher than they are today.

But isn't this just more government data? They're also cooking the books, right?

I suppose so. The numbers do come from the Department of Labor Propaganda, after all. But at the very bottom of their weekly report on unemployment claims, it says this:

Quote
This news release presents the weekly unemployment insurance (UI) claims reported by each state's unemployment insurance program offices.

So this means that 50 separate State unemployment offices have to also be in on the conspiracy. Still technically possible, but it's really hard to keep a secret between 50 people, let alone, 50 departments that are made up of dozens of people.

Maybe - But it's still government data. What is the private sector and third parties saying?

The Kaiser Family Foundation says that we have a little bit more people covered today under employer sponsored health plans than we did in 2019. This comports with the idea that employment has basically recovered to pre-pandemic levels.

Source: https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-population/?dataView=1&activeTab=graph&currentTimeframe=0&startTimeframe=14&selectedDistributions=employer&selectedRows=%7B%22wrapups%22:%7B%22united-states%22:%7B%7D%7D%7D&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

---

The following report from HiringLab (the research arm of Indeed) concludes that 2023 was surprisingly robust.

Source: https://www.hiringlab.org/2023/11/15/indeeds-2024-us-jobs-hiring-trends-report/

Another from September of this year, describing the latest on the employment situation.

Source: https://www.hiringlab.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/sep-2024-us-labor-market-overview.pdf

The latest report is from HiringLab is lukewarm, but the key thing I want to point out here is that many of their slides directly use BLS data. Does that mean the BLS data is rock solid? No, not in and of itself. But it does tell us that the research arm of Indeed, a subsidiary of Recruit Holdings (a publicly traded company with $20b in annual revenue) thinks its pretty good.

They have a lot of reasons to want the best and most accurate data possible.

---

Here is one of my favorite examples from the Door Dash quarterly earnings report:



600 million door dash orders a quarter! Consistent year over year growth of around 20% for five consecutive quarters. Paying 2-4X to get cold McDonalds delivered to you in 38 minutes doesn't seem like something people would spring for in a lackluster economy.

So why do people feel so crappy about the economy?

That's an excellent question. I have a couple of guesses.

1.) People accept 100% of the credit for wage growth and 0% of the blame for inflation.

We just came through an inflationary period due to the COVID pandemic. But in the US, inflation adjusted wages are actually up! People are making more money on a real dollar basis than they were before the pandemic.

Source: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

But people don't see it that way. They see themselves working really hard, their wages going up X%, but prices going up Y%. It doesn't matter that X>Y. They deserve to earn X, and Y is eating into that.

2.) Just imagine what MMM would say.

It's the fucking phones. It's social media. And it's overconsumption.

Yes it is an empirical fact that fast food is more expensive than it used to be. But also, see above. 600 million quarterly door dash orders. This is one of many gold plated luxuries that people are increasingly opting into. It affects their perception of affordability and is generally just a poor personal finance decision.

3.) Partisan Hackery



Republicans feelings on the economy were extremely low under Obama, then skyrocketed under Trump. They crashed back down under Biden.

I'll just be frank and direct with this one: This is a completely nonsensical and incoherent opinion. If people truly feel the economy was better during the pandemic, with large sectors shut down, and 20% unemployment, than it is right now, there is nothing I can say to them or show to them to convince them otherwise.


I do about this level of reading and research for every strongly held opinion I have. And I'll be frank here and say I'm willing to bet it's an order of magnitude more research than OP does.

There is, what I would describe as a pathological distrust in institutions right now. And a pathological obsession with wanting to out-think the room on something.

Of course, it's good to be critical of institutions. But be fair. I'm losing track of the massive eye-rolls I do when people say that they're doing their own research, but then just end up parroting extremely popular, anti-establishment talking points.

bacchi

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2024, 11:01:13 AM »

roomtempmayo

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2024, 11:10:33 AM »
Thanks, @mathlete

wageslave23

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2024, 12:47:42 PM »
Now do all the polls that said Kamala was ahead and Hillary was ahead 🤣

mathlete

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2024, 01:47:40 PM »
Now do all the polls that said Kamala was ahead and Hillary was ahead 🤣

The 2016 polling averages said that Clinton was ahead, but Trump was within a standard normal polling error of winning. There was a standard polling error and he won.

The 2024 polling averages said that it was a very close election and that Trump was narrowly favored. There was a very close election and Trump narrowly won.

What else would you like to know? :)

mathlete

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Re: Labor market - backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2024, 01:19:09 PM »
Another massive miss - Just 12k jobs added in Oct as an initial estimate
Sept first revision takes off 31k from the initial estimate
Aug 2nd revision takes off a huge 81k - more than 50%

https://www.forexfactory.com/news/1312097-the-us-employment-situation-october-2024

But I'm being paranoid and there's nothing to see, so move along!

November report is out. September and October numbers were revised upward.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2024, 02:36:49 PM »
Now do all the polls that said Kamala was ahead and Hillary was ahead 🤣

The 2016 polling averages said that Clinton was ahead, but Trump was within a standard normal polling error of winning. There was a standard polling error and he won.

The 2024 polling averages said that it was a very close election and that Trump was narrowly favored. There was a very close election and Trump narrowly won.

What else would you like to know? :)

this thread showed up under new so I happened to read it not knowing what I was getting into, whoah boy,  @mathlete you are a treasure.  That is all I came here to say {slowly backs out Homer Simpson style}

mathlete

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Re: Backward revisions lops off 818k US jobs | Continual downward revisions
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2025, 07:28:31 AM »
December jobs report is out and it’s a good one.
+256K jobs for December.

October revised up again, but November revised down. Total net change is -8K.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!