Author Topic: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?  (Read 2852 times)

Abe Froman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Greater Chicago
I have been working my excel spreadsheet over and over again for the last number of years, and feel like I am close to being ready – for  retirement.
But I am unsure.

So I convinced my wife there is value in paying possibly a couple hundred dollars to a Financial / retirement Advisor and get an independent opinion. This would give me a sense of assurance that I am running my calculations right, that my assumptions are correct – and that I am overall in the right place.
More so I think if he gives me the thumbs up – it might actually make me more anxious as I feel I am coming closer to the precipice; you know that excited and nervous feeling you have when you are buying your first house, getting married or having your first child. Good problem to have - right?

{To be clear – I view retirement as a choice of work – not the avoidance of work)

In preparation for the initial (free) consultation – he gave me a few questions for my wife and I to consider. Apart from the clear grammar mistakes (which drives me batty – I mean if he cannot make sure spelling is right on his site or his emails read legibly, how can I convince myself you won’t overlook some numbers that are important to me?), my wife and I feel almost awkward in our answers. I’ll show you why.
•   What are your family's most important goals?
•   What are your biggest challenges right now?
•   What financial goals do you have for the next year, 5 years, and lifetime?
Each question was addressed with the same three goals, (1) I’d like to retire now (2) like a modicum of travel every year, (3) save enough for 2 x college.

I suspect that he is more used to people coming to him with little to no retirement savings, a full on mortgage, 2 face-punch-worthy car payments, and a partridge in a pear tree.
My, concerns, seem trivial almost. Meh – I think I will need to be straight right off the bat and say look – I am here to find out if I have enough to pull the plug early next year.

Has anyone else gone in for a sanity check in the same manner?
What sort of questions would you ask?
I feel like asking his thoughts on Roth Laddering in the first meeting might be skipping the foreplay a little too fast.

My situation ….
Married with 2 sons. Fully paid house (roughly valued around $400k)
Post -Tax Account: ~$1.2M
Retirement Acct (401k, IRA, HSA): ~$1.37M
Cash/Liquid: ~$140K
Average Family Annual Spend (over last 5 years): $45K

Arbitrage

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
I can't offer a whole lot of advice, but maybe just a few points.

I think it's fine to get that sanity check.  However, I'd make sure that this is a fee-based hourly advisor, and that everyone knows that's the arrangement going in.  I tried to get this sort of thing (earlier in the FIRE journey) with a free consultation, and the whole thing was a neverending sales pitch to book me as a client and start skimming off of my portfolio.

Certainly by normal mustachian standards, or the standards of just about anyone, you're in great shape with a withdrawal rate well under 2%.  Even if you assume no financial aid for college - which I think is unlikely with low income - and lop off a half million or more, you're still in good shape. 


BNgarden

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 628
  • Location: Alberta
I used a fee-based hourly financial advisor here in Canada to check out my math.  I went in explicitly asking: did I calculate correctly, given our details?  is there any consideration I've missed / should add in to our calculations?  She did exactly what I asked her and pointed me to software that could assist in Canada-specific scenario planning.

I say start with YOUR questions and the process should be useful.

terran

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3880
Honestly, I'd probably post a case study here before going to a financial advisor for this kind of thing. And if you want to stress test your plan by having half the respondents tell you you're not ready because of all the catastrophic things that might happen then do the same on the bogleheads forum. The other half will be cross posters here or similarly minded older folks.

Loren Ver

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Handlebar Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 1316
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
I think your subject line asks a good question.  What are you actually looking for from this advisor and what are you going to do with that information?

So first off, getting a sanity check is not a bad idea.  Many of us do that here on the site to make sure we aren't going off half cocked or overlooking something that is going to bite us in the butt later.  Many people also use fresh eyes outside this environment to do that.  The important thing is to find the RIGHT person to do this, not just someone that says they do financial stuff.  Many financial people are just sales people and your goal isn't to be sold but to be checked.  It might take you several "interviews" to find the right person to really dig into your numbers if this is what you want to do. 

If you find someone you don't jive with (even if it is due to grammar errors), and they question something you are doing, you aren't going to take their input seriously are you?  If not, you just threw the time and (potential) money away.  You need to do the process again.  So make sure you are picking the right person before you pick them.  Some people just can't handle early retirement, and if they are in the "no" camp, move on.

Loren

Fishindude

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3072
So long as you're not spending crazy money on it, I don't think it's a bad idea to talk to one or more financial consultants.
Most will be trying to sell a product or service along with their consultation, so keep that in mind.

We pulled the plug three years ago and our biggest challenge was figuring out what our true annual spending requirements would be.
Many advisors suggest you budget 70% (or some figure) of your "while working budget" for retirement spending, but with all of this free time on our hands, we spend as much or more than we did while working.

yachi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1238
Has anyone else gone in for a sanity check in the same manner?
What sort of questions would you ask?
I feel like asking his thoughts on Roth Laddering in the first meeting might be skipping the foreplay a little too fast.

I think it's easy to miss how advanced the advice is on this forum and blog.  By that I mean you may be likely to ask about something shared often on this forum, like the 5-year Roth Conversion ladder to someone who has limited experience in that part of personal finance.  This also applies to this forum's advice on saving money on food, housing, cars, etc.  The combination of high income/net worth with low spending is something your advisor probably doesn't see very often, but is the norm around here.  Even if he doesn't know about those techniques to eke out the last penny from a dollar, he might still be comfortable with your plan because your withdrawal rate is so low.  He might not buy that you will be happiest spending 45k in retirement for your family of 4, and I wouldn't be surprised if he has a list of things for you to spend more on.

You'll want to flesh it out:  good living to us means we cook our own meals, grow our own veggies, get to the grocery store by bike
fun engaging travel to us means we travel coach, stay in hostels, eat in season meals from local restaurants... not we fly first class to all inclusive resorts at peak season
 
Your financial advisor might see clients who answer those questions with:  I want to stop running out of money when my taxes are due, I want to ease out of my company/self employment/rental properties, I want to set my children up for life. I want to buy a yacht, but keep spending my money on stupid(er?) stuff instead.

I was having someone do my taxes after we first bought our house (we do them ourselves now), and we had taken money out of our Roth IRAs for the downpayment.  You're allowed to withdrawal from a Roth for a house downpayment but only if the account is older than 5 years which the tax preparer knew.  It hadn't been more than 5 years, but I was careful not to withdrawal more than we had put in.  I had the tax preparer complete the form, and it asked for the contributions as well as the withdrawal.  When the contributions were greater than the withdrawals, no taxes or penalties were owed.

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 635
$2.5 millions and annual spending under $50k ?? Yeah you don't need an advisor to tell you that you have more than enough.

toocold

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 49
I have never used a financial advisor this way, but if you can find a good fee only one, it's something I'd consider.

If you want additional eyes on your plan, I would also post on the early retirement forum and boggleheads.  I think you'll find that the answers will be the similar and that you'll be fine.

DaMa

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Honestly, I'd probably post a case study here before going to a financial advisor for this kind of thing. And if you want to stress test your plan by having half the respondents tell you you're not ready because of all the catastrophic things that might happen then do the same on the bogleheads forum. The other half will be cross posters here or similarly minded older folks.

+1

Any time I've talked to a "financial advisor," he seemed to know less than I did.
I wouldn't trust one anyway.  They are all trying to sell something.


cool7hand

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1321
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 01:07:26 PM »
Congratulations and FIRE away!

GoCubsGo

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 379
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 01:26:53 PM »
Sounds like a waste of time.  Have you read the case studies section?  I doubt he will go into as much detail as many on here would and if he did, it wouldn't be for free.  His questions are stock questions every financial advisor asks so I wouldn't judge too much on that.  That said, I doubt you'll get anywhere near the level of detail you want without hiring a fee only CFP (of which there are MANY in Chicago). 

He'll realize your fishing for free info and are  not an actual client (I know many financial advisors).  He may run you through some stock retirement planner software (which basically is less in depth info than you could find on these forums) and then cut bait.

I'm a little confused as what "calculations" you need checked.  You could basically retire and fully fund college with even simple back of the math calculations (that includes paying for Cadillac health insurance). 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 01:29:59 PM by GoCubsGo »

CoffeeR

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Location: Southwest
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 02:21:55 PM »
If you want additional eyes on your plan, I would also post on the early retirement forum and boggleheads.  I think you'll find that the answers will be the similar and that you'll be fine.
Don't post on boggleheads... no matter how much you have or how low your withdrawal rate it will not be enough.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 10:13:36 PM by CoffeeR »

Arbitrage

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1482
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 02:52:50 PM »
If you want additional eyes on your plan, I would also post on the early retirement forum and boggleheads.  I think you'll find that the answers will be the similar and that you'll be fine.
Don't post of boggleheads... no matter how much you have or how low your withdrawal rate it will not be enough.

Even they don't go below 2% for recommendations. 

BTDretire

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3074
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 06:12:00 PM »
$2.5 millions and annual spending under $50k ?? Yeah you don't need an advisor to tell you that you have more than enough.
I agree, this seems like a no brainer to me.
 Not that it really has any bearing on your financial situation, but how old are you?
Or the real question how long before you collect SS? How about your spouse?
That seems like a little gravy on top of a big pile of potatoes you will not be able to finish!

Pigeon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1295
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2020, 01:53:08 PM »
I'm in a pretty similar boat.  I would love to pull the plug, but I am scared about walking away from my firehose of cash.  It would be great to have someone double check my situation, so I can understand your need to ask for permission.  I had a meeting with my TIAA guy a year ago, who thought we would be fine to retire.  But then  he tried to sell me some stupid life insurance thing, so I doubt everything he said.

Can I ask how you found the independent, fee only person?  I haven't been able to figure that part out.  It seems like every search I do turns up people who have ties to some company.

friedmmj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 429
  • Age: 58
  • Location: USA
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2020, 02:04:05 PM »
$2.5 millions and annual spending under $50k ?? Yeah you don't need an advisor to tell you that you have more than enough.

+1. Save your time/money you have way more than you need

Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2020, 02:36:23 PM »
If you want to go in for a "free" consultation with a financial advisor, that's fine, but, as others have said, the reason it's "free" is because he wants to get you signed up as a client, so he can start earning money off of your portfolio. +1 to others' suggestions above that you post a case study here in the forum and, maybe, also at bogleheads, if you want a different, more conservative, perspective, as well.

Also, it might be good to read Jim Collins' take on financial advisors, before you go for your "free" consultation.

triple7stash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 104
  • Location: Age 28 - Sacramento, CA
    • Pension Prologue
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2020, 02:59:15 PM »
As mentioned earlier, there is nothing inherently wrong with an assets-under-management (aum) advisor, however the nature of your request leads itself towards hiring a fee-for-service advisor. To double down on what was mentioned earlier, make sure you seek a Certified Financial Planner (CFP)!
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 11:36:05 AM by Triple7Stash »

dresden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 126
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2020, 02:29:25 AM »
I don't think you need to see a financial advisor - and they have a very different way of looking at retirement-readiness than most people planning to retire early.

For example, my financial advisor is a smart and nice guy, but he doesn't count a paid-off house as an asset - he only counts things that can be converted to cash immediately, but yet it clearly impacts retirement-readiness because it significantly lowers my monthly expenses.  I am sure he sincerely believes I should take out a mortgage and invest the money - but he knows me well enough not to suggest it.

Also consider the inherent conflict of interest - financial advisors generally make their money from commissions when you are adding to your portfolio.  It's in their best interest to convince you to defer retirement because ultimately even if you are adding to a company 401k that money might eventually get rolled over.

It's ultimately up to the client to manage the relationship properly and ensure they are looking out for your best interests, because that's not always the case.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 02:37:33 AM by dresden »

slappy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1469
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2020, 10:02:49 AM »
I don't think you need to see a financial advisor - and they have a very different way of looking at retirement-readiness than most people planning to retire early.

For example, my financial advisor is a smart and nice guy, but he doesn't count a paid-off house as an asset - he only counts things that can be converted to cash immediately, but yet it clearly impacts retirement-readiness because it significantly lowers my monthly expenses.  I am sure he sincerely believes I should take out a mortgage and invest the money - but he knows me well enough not to suggest it.

Also consider the inherent conflict of interest - financial advisors generally make their money from commissions when you are adding to your portfolio.  It's in their best interest to convince you to defer retirement because ultimately even if you are adding to a company 401k that money might eventually get rolled over.

It's ultimately up to the client to manage the relationship properly and ensure they are looking out for your best interests, because that's not always the case.

Not counting house as an asset and not having it count toward retirement readiness are two different things. Of course it's not counted as asset for retirement readiness because you won't be withdrawing from it. It does count toward retirement readiness because it lowers your expenses.  Just going by the 4% rule, the less expenses you have, the less you need to retire. I assume your advisor is taking that into consideration.

Catbert

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Location: Southern California
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2020, 10:19:34 AM »
I'll also point out that anyone can be a "financial advisor".  Literally anyone.  Some are actually stock brokers or insurance salespeople.  Some are multi-level marketers (really!).  Others are CPAs, CFA, or CFPs. 

A free session (aka sales meeting) is fine, but I doubt you'll get what you want.  Look for fee-only CFP or even a CFP who is also a CPA.  I believe Garrett group will do referrals to fee-only CFPs. 

Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2020, 10:36:47 AM »
Some of the graphics didn't copy, but here's most of the text from Jim Collins' post on financial advisors:

"Avoid Money Managers.  They are expensive at best and will rob you at worst.  Google Bernie Madoff.  Seek advice cautiously and never give up control.  It’s your money and no one will care for it better than you.  But many will try hard to make it theirs.  Don’t let it happen.

When I say Money Managers, I am also referring to Investment Advisors, Financial Planners, Brokers and the like.  Any and all who make their money managing yours.

Now, I’m sure there are many honest, diligent, hard-working advisors who selflessly put their clients’ needs ahead of their own.  Actually, I am not at all sure about that.  But just in case, I put it out there in fairness to them.

Here’s the problem.

1.  By design, structurally, an advisor’s interests and that of their client are in opposition.  To do what’s best for the client requires the advisor to do what is not best for himself.  It takes a rare and saintly person to behave this way.  Money management seems not the calling of first or even second choice for the rare and saintly.

2.  Well intentioned, but bad advice is epidemic in this field.  Advisors who put their clients’ interests ahead of their own are, to steal a phrase from Joe Landsdale in his novel Edge of Dark Water, “rarer than baptized rattlesnakes.”  And then you’ve got to find one who actually is any good.

3.  Advisors are drawn not to the best investments but to those that pay the highest commissions and management fees.  Indeed, often they are compelled by their firms to sell these.  Such investments are, by definition, expensive to buy and own.

4.  Not surprisingly a field that provides access to people’s life savings is a magnet for….con men, thieves and grifters.

Investment Advisors earn their money in one of three ways:

1.  Commissions.  The advisor is paid each time you buy or sell an investment.

It’s not hard to see the potential for abuse here, and the conflict of interest is stark.   There is no “load” (commission) charged to buy a Vanguard Fund.  But American Funds, among others,  charge a princely load.  It goes into the pocket of the advisor.  Mmmm.  Wonder which he’ll recommend?

Still other funds offer a 1% (from your money) recurring management fee to the advisors who sell them.  That means you get to pay a commission not once, but every year for as long as you hold the fund.  No surprise advisors favor these too.

Insurance investments are some of the highest commission payers.  This makes them perhaps the most aggressively recommended products advisors offer and certainly among the most costly to you.  Annuities and whole/universal life insurance carry commissions as high as 10%.  Worse, these commissions are buried in the investment so you never see them.  How such fraud is legal I can’t say.  But it is.

Hedge funds and private investments all make their salespeople wealthy, along with the operators.  Investors?  Maybe.  Sometimes.

If this weren’t enough, if you’re not paying attention, there is more money to be mined at your expense by “churning” your account.  Churning refers to the frequent buying and selling of investments to generate commissions.  It is illegal.  But it is also easily disguised, principally as “adjusting your asset allocation.”

Bernie Madoff: Time was, people begged him to take their money. His credentials were impeccable.   His track record too. Only the “best” investment advisors could get you in. Mr. Madoff paid them handsomely to do so.  As did their clients. Oops.

2.  Management fees, the AUM model.  The advisor charges an annual fee to manage your money.  Typically 1-2% of assets under management (AUM).

With the rampant abuse of the commission model, in recent years charging management fees has grown in popularity.  It is presented as being more objective and “professional.”  But there are snakes in this grass as well.

First, 1-2% annually is a HUGE drag on the growth of your wealth.  Let’s say your portfolio earns 8% per year.  2% goes to the fee.  Let’s say 3% to inflation and maybe 3% to taxes and…..Suddenly there’s nothing left for you.  Investment returns are precious and under this model your advisor is skimming the absolute cream.

Let’s hop over to our pal Dave Ramsey’s site and borrow his calculator.  Suppose you have a nest egg of $100,000.  That’s about the minimum to interest an advisor.  Let’s suppose you invest it for 20 years and earn 8% per year.  You end up with $492,680.  Not bad.  Now suppose you give up 2% to a management fee.  Your net return is now 6% and after 20 years that yields $331,020.  $161,660 less.  You not only give up the 1-2% each year, you give up all the money that money would have earned compounding for you over the 20 years.

Second, we still have the problem of a conflict of interest.  It is not as pervasive as the commission model but it’s still there.  Maybe you are considering paying off your 100k mortgage or whether to contribute 100k to your’s kid’s college education instead of having them go into debt.  Most advisors will consul against either of these courses.  For you, depending on your situation, that may be good or bad advice.  For your advisor, it is the only advice that preserves the $1000 to $2000 in annual fees that 100k puts in their pocket.

Third, the vast, vast majority of advisors are destined to cost you still more money as they underperform the market. You won’t know for 20 years or so if you got lucky enough to pick one of the exceedingly rare ones who don’t.

3.  Hourly fees.

If you really need advice, this is the most straightforward way to pay for it.  But pay for it you will.  Rates of $2oo-$300+ per hour are not uncommon.  You are less likely to be cheated, but you still have the challenge of knowing if the advice itself is going to be good or bad for your financial health.

 4.  Some combination of 1,2 & 3 from above.

That’s our last option.  If your advisor is using it, likely the reason is not for your benefit.

Pretty grim, eh?  Here’s an article written by investment advisor, Allen Roth, with some revealing admissions as to how the game is played.  He certainly spells it out.  Bravo, Allen!!  But where he and I part company is he also provides advice on how to pick a good advisor.  That’s probably even more vanishingly difficult than picking winning stocks or mutual funds.

If you are a novice investor you have a two choices:

You can learn to pick an advisor.
You can learn to pick your investments.
Both require effort and time.  But the second not only provides better results, it is the easier path.

The great irony of successful investing is simple is better.  Complicated investments only benefit the people and companies that sell them.  Not only do you not need complex investments, they actually work against you.  At best they are costly.  At worst, they are a cesspool of swindlers.  Not worth your time.  You can do better.

Nobody will care for your money trees better than you.

With less effort than choosing an advisor, you can learn to manage your money yourself.….with better results."

BuildingFrugalHabits

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 250
  • Location: Great Plains
  • Living the dream
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2020, 11:22:15 AM »
I have been working my excel spreadsheet over and over again for the last number of years, and feel like I am close to being ready – for  retirement.
But I am unsure.

So I convinced my wife there is value in paying possibly a couple hundred dollars to a Financial / retirement Advisor and get an independent opinion. This would give me a sense of assurance that I am running my calculations right, that my assumptions are correct – and that I am overall in the right place.
More so I think if he gives me the thumbs up – it might actually make me more anxious as I feel I am coming closer to the precipice; you know that excited and nervous feeling you have when you are buying your first house, getting married or having your first child. Good problem to have - right?

{To be clear – I view retirement as a choice of work – not the avoidance of work)

In preparation for the initial (free) consultation – he gave me a few questions for my wife and I to consider. Apart from the clear grammar mistakes (which drives me batty – I mean if he cannot make sure spelling is right on his site or his emails read legibly, how can I convince myself you won’t overlook some numbers that are important to me?), my wife and I feel almost awkward in our answers. I’ll show you why.
•   What are your family's most important goals?
•   What are your biggest challenges right now?
•   What financial goals do you have for the next year, 5 years, and lifetime?
Each question was addressed with the same three goals, (1) I’d like to retire now (2) like a modicum of travel every year, (3) save enough for 2 x college.

I suspect that he is more used to people coming to him with little to no retirement savings, a full on mortgage, 2 face-punch-worthy car payments, and a partridge in a pear tree.
My, concerns, seem trivial almost. Meh – I think I will need to be straight right off the bat and say look – I am here to find out if I have enough to pull the plug early next year.

Has anyone else gone in for a sanity check in the same manner?
What sort of questions would you ask?
I feel like asking his thoughts on Roth Laddering in the first meeting might be skipping the foreplay a little too fast.

My situation ….
Married with 2 sons. Fully paid house (roughly valued around $400k)
Post -Tax Account: ~$1.2M
Retirement Acct (401k, IRA, HSA): ~$1.37M
Cash/Liquid: ~$140K
Average Family Annual Spend (over last 5 years): $45K

I think others have told you what you intuitively already know, financially you appear to be ready for retirement if that is what you desire.  Congrats on accumulating that level of wealth and maintaining such a low level of expenses with for your family of four.  My family is half the size and spends about the same as you!  If your expenses are stable at the current level, you are at less than 2% withdrawal.  What are your primary reservations regarding retirement?  What questions do you have about the Roth ladder?  Even if you ignore your tax advantaged accounts, your current spending is less than 4% of your taxable accounts. 

triple7stash

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 104
  • Location: Age 28 - Sacramento, CA
    • Pension Prologue
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2020, 11:50:28 AM »
To continue to play devil’s advocate, there definitely is a time and a place for financial advisors. This forum and most of the fire community is very against financial planners. I believe this is for two reasons:

1. There really is a problem with non-fiduciary planners taking advantage of their clients. However, if you hire a CFP and complete a thorough screening I believe you can weed out the bad actors. More importantly...

2. If you are an individual seeking FIRE, participating in financial blogs/forums, etc. You are probably self-motivated enough to seek out the information on your own and are intelligent enough to find your own solutions. This marginalizes the usefulness of a financial planner greatly. Then what little marginal benefit you are receiving from a planner, likely isn’t worth their cost. This is a generalization, but I do believe that most individuals on this blog don’t need the advice of a planner.

If you do decide to seek out a financial planner. Paladin Registry is a good free tool to do an initial screening for planners in your area.

https://www.paladinregistry.com/


dummy

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2020, 06:02:18 PM »
Some of the graphics didn't copy, but here's most of the text from Jim Collins' post on financial advisors:

"Avoid Money Managers.  They are expensive at best and will rob you at worst.  Google Bernie Madoff.  Seek advice cautiously and never give up control.  It’s your money and no one will care for it better than you.  But many will try hard to make it theirs.  Don’t let it happen.

When I say Money Managers, I am also referring to Investment Advisors, Financial Planners, Brokers and the like.  Any and all who make their money managing yours.

Now, I’m sure there are many honest, diligent, hard-working advisors who selflessly put their clients’ needs ahead of their own.  Actually, I am not at all sure about that.  But just in case, I put it out there in fairness to them.

Here’s the problem.

1.  By design, structurally, an advisor’s interests and that of their client are in opposition.  To do what’s best for the client requires the advisor to do what is not best for himself.  It takes a rare and saintly person to behave this way.  Money management seems not the calling of first or even second choice for the rare and saintly.

2.  Well intentioned, but bad advice is epidemic in this field.  Advisors who put their clients’ interests ahead of their own are, to steal a phrase from Joe Landsdale in his novel Edge of Dark Water, “rarer than baptized rattlesnakes.”  And then you’ve got to find one who actually is any good.

3.  Advisors are drawn not to the best investments but to those that pay the highest commissions and management fees.  Indeed, often they are compelled by their firms to sell these.  Such investments are, by definition, expensive to buy and own.

4.  Not surprisingly a field that provides access to people’s life savings is a magnet for….con men, thieves and grifters.

Investment Advisors earn their money in one of three ways:

1.  Commissions.  The advisor is paid each time you buy or sell an investment.

It’s not hard to see the potential for abuse here, and the conflict of interest is stark.   There is no “load” (commission) charged to buy a Vanguard Fund.  But American Funds, among others,  charge a princely load.  It goes into the pocket of the advisor.  Mmmm.  Wonder which he’ll recommend?

Still other funds offer a 1% (from your money) recurring management fee to the advisors who sell them.  That means you get to pay a commission not once, but every year for as long as you hold the fund.  No surprise advisors favor these too.

Insurance investments are some of the highest commission payers.  This makes them perhaps the most aggressively recommended products advisors offer and certainly among the most costly to you.  Annuities and whole/universal life insurance carry commissions as high as 10%.  Worse, these commissions are buried in the investment so you never see them.  How such fraud is legal I can’t say.  But it is.

Hedge funds and private investments all make their salespeople wealthy, along with the operators.  Investors?  Maybe.  Sometimes.

If this weren’t enough, if you’re not paying attention, there is more money to be mined at your expense by “churning” your account.  Churning refers to the frequent buying and selling of investments to generate commissions.  It is illegal.  But it is also easily disguised, principally as “adjusting your asset allocation.”

Bernie Madoff: Time was, people begged him to take their money. His credentials were impeccable.   His track record too. Only the “best” investment advisors could get you in. Mr. Madoff paid them handsomely to do so.  As did their clients. Oops.

2.  Management fees, the AUM model.  The advisor charges an annual fee to manage your money.  Typically 1-2% of assets under management (AUM).

With the rampant abuse of the commission model, in recent years charging management fees has grown in popularity.  It is presented as being more objective and “professional.”  But there are snakes in this grass as well.

First, 1-2% annually is a HUGE drag on the growth of your wealth.  Let’s say your portfolio earns 8% per year.  2% goes to the fee.  Let’s say 3% to inflation and maybe 3% to taxes and…..Suddenly there’s nothing left for you.  Investment returns are precious and under this model your advisor is skimming the absolute cream.

Let’s hop over to our pal Dave Ramsey’s site and borrow his calculator.  Suppose you have a nest egg of $100,000.  That’s about the minimum to interest an advisor.  Let’s suppose you invest it for 20 years and earn 8% per year.  You end up with $492,680.  Not bad.  Now suppose you give up 2% to a management fee.  Your net return is now 6% and after 20 years that yields $331,020.  $161,660 less.  You not only give up the 1-2% each year, you give up all the money that money would have earned compounding for you over the 20 years.

Second, we still have the problem of a conflict of interest.  It is not as pervasive as the commission model but it’s still there.  Maybe you are considering paying off your 100k mortgage or whether to contribute 100k to your’s kid’s college education instead of having them go into debt.  Most advisors will consul against either of these courses.  For you, depending on your situation, that may be good or bad advice.  For your advisor, it is the only advice that preserves the $1000 to $2000 in annual fees that 100k puts in their pocket.

Third, the vast, vast majority of advisors are destined to cost you still more money as they underperform the market. You won’t know for 20 years or so if you got lucky enough to pick one of the exceedingly rare ones who don’t.

3.  Hourly fees.

If you really need advice, this is the most straightforward way to pay for it.  But pay for it you will.  Rates of $2oo-$300+ per hour are not uncommon.  You are less likely to be cheated, but you still have the challenge of knowing if the advice itself is going to be good or bad for your financial health.

 4.  Some combination of 1,2 & 3 from above.

That’s our last option.  If your advisor is using it, likely the reason is not for your benefit.

Pretty grim, eh?  Here’s an article written by investment advisor, Allen Roth, with some revealing admissions as to how the game is played.  He certainly spells it out.  Bravo, Allen!!  But where he and I part company is he also provides advice on how to pick a good advisor.  That’s probably even more vanishingly difficult than picking winning stocks or mutual funds.

If you are a novice investor you have a two choices:

You can learn to pick an advisor.
You can learn to pick your investments.
Both require effort and time.  But the second not only provides better results, it is the easier path.

The great irony of successful investing is simple is better.  Complicated investments only benefit the people and companies that sell them.  Not only do you not need complex investments, they actually work against you.  At best they are costly.  At worst, they are a cesspool of swindlers.  Not worth your time.  You can do better.

Nobody will care for your money trees better than you.

With less effort than choosing an advisor, you can learn to manage your money yourself.….with better results."


Thanks shane!! Very informative.

Shane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • Location: Midtown
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2020, 08:18:07 PM »

Thanks shane!! Very informative.

You're welcome! Jim's blog post about financial advisors is just one of about 30+ posts that make up his "Stock Series." The whole series is definitely worth a read, as well. A few years ago, Jim wrote a book based on his Stock Series of blog posts, called The Simple Path to Wealth... Highly recommend the Stock Series and the book, as well.

Much Fishing to Do

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2020, 10:22:53 AM »
I think its a waste of time.  Looking at the pinned posts on MMM will give you starting point for specific questions, any thing else you can ask.

I do think sometimes people don't step back and look at their assumptions big picture wise (I've done this before), so do make sure you agree with something like the following list to make you;re being honest with yourself:

-I believe a 2% SWR will almost for sure work based on history, but I understand it is possible it may not this time and I'm willing to take that (albeit small) risk to RE today.
-It almost for certain that the greatest risk of me not maximizing my time comfortably retired is by me NOT retiring today (because that's probably one less day I'll be comfortably retired).
-My allocations are reasonable and similar enough to ones that SWR studies have been based off of that the 2% SWR has meaning for comparison.
-I can't imagine my or my families desired/required spending will grow much past the rate of inflation (I think this lifestyle inflation (or regret that you cant lifestyle inflate) is a much much more likely risk than market failure on a 2% SWR)


I can't imagine anyone in the 'normal' investing world can tell you anything helpful.

djadziadax

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 184
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2020, 04:42:01 AM »
If you want to meet with someone, and if you trust Michael Kitces research on retirement and financial planning, why not try one of his recommended shops.

https://www.kitces.com/financial-planning-solutions-for-consumers/


Abe Froman

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Greater Chicago
Re: Questions for Retirement Advisor, maybe asking for retirement permission?
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2020, 12:33:06 PM »
Great idea on a Kitces approved network.
Looking at the XY PLannign Network - its great to see their specialty AND their rates.
Makes it so much easier.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!