Author Topic: Large Income/Young/Help!  (Read 5791 times)

tonyh3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Large Income/Young/Help!
« on: December 10, 2017, 03:10:22 PM »
I am currently 28 years old, wife is 32 and we just had our first child recently. We purchased a 3B/2Bath earlier this year for $469k, 20% down and currently owe $350k (4.25% 30 year fixed, about $2500 payment). My wife will stop working when her maternity leave is up and that will leave us with just my income. I will clear about $310k in 2017 and will likely be closer to $350k in 2018. I am constantly going back and forth between paying off the house in 5-6 years or investing it all. I luckily have the ability to do both and still put a substantial amount of money in Vanguard or Betterment. I am also very interested in RE investing but haven't jumped in yet as RE in the city is quite expensive. The new baby has made me think twice about a very early retirement as those costs will increase exponentially from here through college. My income in largely commission based, $90k base (will likely go to $94k this year), the rest coming in quarterly bonuses. This is where we stand, where would you put the money:

Assets:

Wife Old 401k- $64,400
My Old 401k- $37,500
Wife Current 401k- $22,000
My Current 401k- $70,000
Emergency Fund- $60,000
Savings Accounts- $16,000
Checking Accounts- ~$4200 (obv. fluctuates throughout the month, we just paid mortgage 12/1)
HSA's- ~$7,000
Vanguard- $20,000
Betterment- $3,900

Liabilities

Mortgage- $350,000
CC- $1200 (fluctuates)

I try to invest and pay down the mortgage with the quarterly bonuses and live off the base. I know, I know, the mortgage topic is not popular here. my thought process is that the money I throw at the mortgage gives me an immediate 4.25% return, I get a 100% return on up to 5% of my 401k contributions and say 10% historically on the mutual funds. Overall that seems to be a very balanced allocation and hopefully in 5 years I have the mortgage done and can shovel a ton of money at RE or MF's. Curious as to what others might do in my position given my age and timeframe until retirement with a child.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8908
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2017, 04:50:17 PM »
Welcome and congratulations on the baby.

The standard advice in these parts on order of investment is in this thread -

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/

At your level of income you obviously need to put as much as you can into tax advantaged places, both yours and your wife's.  After that, I would tend to say that with your mortgage interest at 4.25% then long term it's financially pretty much a wash as to whether you invest in the stock market or pay off the mortgage.  I'm rather more of a "pay off the mortgage" person myself, which is mostly about feelings of security.

Fomerly known as something

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: CA
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 05:00:27 PM »
I'd say put it into a taxable account until you can pay the mortgage "in full."  At that point you can evaluate if you want to pay off the house or let your investments ride.

That way if life happens you money is liquid, a paid for house gives peace of mind, a slightly more paid for house doesn't as much.

tonyh3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 06:00:09 PM »
Welcome and congratulations on the baby.

The standard advice in these parts on order of investment is in this thread -

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/

At your level of income you obviously need to put as much as you can into tax advantaged places, both yours and your wife's.  After that, I would tend to say that with your mortgage interest at 4.25% then long term it's financially pretty much a wash as to whether you invest in the stock market or pay off the mortgage.  I'm rather more of a "pay off the mortgage" person myself, which is mostly about feelings of security.

REPLY: (I AM DOING THIS WRONG SOMEHOW)

I would agree that tax advantaged accounts are the way to go. The issues is the income level does not allow this outside of a 401k, which I am already maxing out. ROTH and Traditional IRA's are not applicable at this income level. I guess muni bonds would be an option but not sure how comfortable I feel with that. That is why the RE is enticing. The depreciation against the income seems to be the most advantageous in my position.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:05:02 PM by tonyh3 »

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 06:26:36 PM »
We are in a similar position in some ways except our mortgage is significantly more than yours, and we have more invested. We are maxing our the tax-advantaged space, like you, and then putting the rest in taxable accounts. We are not paying a penny extra on the mortgage because the numbers don’t make sense. I can historically expect much better returns investing in the stock market than my low mortgage rate.

tonyh3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 06:40:35 PM »
how old are you and where do you invest?

COEE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 07:06:55 PM »
You have a lot to celebrate!  New home, killer income, a beautiful wife, a bundle of joy in the oven, and the opportunity to retire by 35.  Wow!  Good work!

Honestly, at your income level and the investment timeline we're talking about, it doesn't matter what you do.  Personally, I'd split the money down the middle - half to savings and half to the house.  If you live off of 90k, that leaves about $175k after taxes (I'd guess your effective tax rate will be about 25%).  That's 87.5k to the house each year, and it will be paid off in about 4 years. 

You already have ~$250k in assets it sounds like, so if you put the other $87.5k in investments, in 4 years you'll have about $600k.  My guess is that with a paid off house you'll need a lot less than 90k to live off of - probably somewhere around $50k.  So now you're socking away ~$200k a year, and you need about 1.25M to Fire and you'll hit that about 3 years later if you don't consider growth.

Congrats - you've just about won the game!  Just 7 short years!

accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 07:25:47 PM »
Help!? You mean this sarcastically?

Way back when I joined the forums, we would have told you that you're just a few years from early retirement but these are the Neo-MMM forums. Honestly, If I had your income, I'd be done in about 3 years, less if I sold the house. Perhaps you should also check out the Bogglehead forums for what they consider a "safe" amount to retire with. Your assets look good, but what do you spend?

I think first realize basically everything is going your way.

Second, what do you want to do with your life? Do you enjoy your job? Do you want to retire early a la MMM? Would you rather have everyday a Saturday and watch your kid grow or continue with the rat race?

My advice is to figure out what you want to do then adjust your spending and saving to that. If you still want some help finding how to get there, do a case study.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 07:40:39 PM »
To answer the OP’s question above, I am 35 and we invest our taxable money through Vanguard in VTIAX and VTSAX.

tonyh3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 09:29:06 PM »
I appreciate the feedback and I guess it looks better from the outside looking in. I think that the 50/50 split makes sense and that is what I have done starting in November. $20k to mortgage, $20k to vanguard and some money toward his 529 and a potential car for my wife. I get a company car and we have been making that work for now. I guess my frustration comes from the the internal conflict that there must be a more tax efficient way to utilize the excess funds and if so what am I missing. Maybe it is as straight forward as it sounds and I have been told. I get that the big picture looks pretty rosy for us but I want to make sure we are doing everything possible to optimize what we have been blessed with.

Laura33

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 09:17:55 AM »
First, look into a backdoor Roth.  Are your old 401(k)s still with your prior companies, or are they in rollover IRAs?  If the latter, see of your current employers allow you to roll them into your current plans.  If you don't have any other outstanding tIRAs, it's very easy to open a tIRA and roll it over immediately into a Roth.  And even if your wife is not employed, I *think* you can do a spousal IRA for her as well (doublecheck, though).  If you can swing another $11K/yr in tax-sheltered accounts, that's a help.

Second, personally, I would recommend changing the order of things:  invest first, then pay the mortgage down if you decide to when you are closer to FIRE.  The thing about the power of compounding is that it gets more and more powerful over time -- a 7% return will give you 2x your investment in 10 years, but 4x in 20, and 8x in 30, whereas a 4% return will give you not quite 1.5X in 10, 2.2x in 20, and only 3.25x in 30.  So the math says it is more beneficial to hit the highest-return option earliest, so that it has a longer time to ride. 

Stupidly simple example with no bearing on reality, for illustration only:  Assume 20-yr FIRE deadline.  Say you have $100K now to do something with, you owe $100k on a 4% mortgage (no minimum payments, you can throw a chunk of $ at it whenever), and in 10 years you will have another $100K free to invest or do whatever with. 

Option 1:  you use that $100K to pay down your mortgage immediately.  In 10 years, you use the next $100K to invest and earn 7% on it.  That gets you about $200K.  So in 20 years, you have $200K and a paid-off house. 

Option 2:  you invest that $100K.  You are not paying the mortgage, so in 10 years, you now owe about $150K on it.  But your investments earned 7%, so now you have $200K.  Now you take that second $100K, pull $50K from your earnings, and pay off the mortgage.  Now you have $150K that sits there for the next 10 years and at 7% grows to $300K.  So in 20 years you have $300K and a paid-off house -- that is 50% more invested assets, simply from changing the order in which you invested the exact same amount of money.  (of course, the best return comes from keeping everything invested and only paying off the mortgage at the end of the 20 years -- that nets you over $350K).

I recognize that this isn't all about the math -- there is no guarantee the market will average 7%, or even beat your 4.25%.  But investing the cash isn't as risky as you think it is (the longer your timeline, the more likely you are to come out ahead investing, because the market almost never loses money over 20-year stints), and prepaying your mortgage isn't as "safe" as you think it is (until you get that last dollar paid off, all the prepayments in the world won't keep you from needing to make that next month's payment). 

But here's the kicker to all of this:  that 50% difference in investment returns over 20 years isn't just happier numbers on your account statements -- it is a direct measurement of the life-hours you need to spend before you can FIRE.  Replace the $200K/$300K with $1M/$1.5M.  $1M and a paid-off house will allow you to FIRE on about $40K/yr, which most folks here could manage just fine.  But what if your FIRE budget requires $60K/yr?  Investing now and paying the mortgage later -- what you are seeing as the "risky" path -- gives you a free extra $500K, simply through the value of compounding.  On the flip side, being "safe" now means many more hours of work to earn enough to save the extra $500K you gave up in your flight to safety.  Is your need for perceived security worth that number of additional life-hours you will need to spend away from that wife and that lovely child?

Tl;dr:  you are 28 years old and have awesome earning power and really solid savings.  Better yet, it sounds like you work in sales, which means you will always be able to find a job.  This is the time in your life when you can afford to be aggressive -- and when doing so is likely to bring the biggest long-term benefits. 

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2076
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 09:24:10 AM »
Way back when I joined the forums, we would have told you that you're just a few years from early retirement but these are the Neo-MMM forums.

I think I can suss out what you mean through context clues, but do you mind giving me a primer between MMM forums then and now anyway?

T.I.A.

DumpTruck

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 10:50:27 AM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2017, 02:23:55 PM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

No, OP has $380,000 in various liquid investments, lives in a high COL area, and has access to a very high income.

accolay

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 02:34:54 PM »
Way back when I joined the forums, we would have told you that you're just a few years from early retirement but these are the Neo-MMM forums.

I think I can suss out what you mean through context clues, but do you mind giving me a primer between MMM forums then and now anyway?

T.I.A.

Ditto what DumpTruck said.

inline five

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 675
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2017, 09:27:52 PM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

Who cares what "you" would've done?

Some of us don't mind working an extra couple years to retire with a nice lifestyle and not be forced to live in a van down by the river eating crappy food for 40 years. Sorry if that upsets you.


Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2017, 11:41:18 PM »
We have similar income and one kid also. We had a mortgage (recently moved from Chicago, coincidentally, and now renting). Back then we were maxing out both 401k plans, paying normal amount on mortgage, using a dependent care FSA, and investing the rest in taxable account (Vanguard, total stock market and total bond market 80/20). We didn't have a backdoor Roth through our 401k plans, so couldn't use that. I think investing now in some mix of stocks & bonds you are comfortable with is the best approach. With your income, there's unlikely to be a situation where you can't afford the mortgage in the future. In that scenario, there's no real financial reason to pay off the mortgage quickly.

DumpTruck

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2017, 09:44:14 AM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

Who cares what "you" would've done?

Some of us don't mind working an extra couple years to retire with a nice lifestyle and not be forced to live in a van down by the river eating crappy food for 40 years. Sorry if that upsets you.

I have no idea who cares about what I would have done and don't care to hypothesize about it. That is totally fine if some of you want to work an extra couple of years with what you consider a nice lifestyle. It certainly does not upset me. Go for it!

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2017, 10:06:40 AM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

Who cares what "you" would've done?

Some of us don't mind working an extra couple years to retire with a nice lifestyle and not be forced to live in a van down by the river eating crappy food for 40 years. Sorry if that upsets you.

If you think people here are retiring early to live in a van by the river, you by interested in Bogleheads too.

DumpTruck

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2017, 11:06:43 AM »
I think the neo-mmm are like... mmm-lite

They want to come on here and talk about money but aren't really doing any willing-inconvenience baddass type stuff. Yes this is over generalized but I see a lot of people on here talking about TV shows, and what to do with cable.

OP is rich AF. I would have retired in 1 year on that. But if you love your job then no point in retiring.

Who cares what "you" would've done?

Some of us don't mind working an extra couple years to retire with a nice lifestyle and not be forced to live in a van down by the river eating crappy food for 40 years. Sorry if that upsets you.

If you think people here are retiring early to live in a van by the river, you by interested in Bogleheads too.

I think he was pointing that comment directly at me, because I plan to retire in my twin turbo van and live a fantastic life rock climbing, biking, hiking, star gazing, total solar eclipse chasing, kayaking, river rafting and backpacking. We certainly don't eat crappy food but if you are used to a normal consumerism life the choices I am making might seem uncomfortable. It's not like I won't be making money or still building wealth though.

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2017, 12:32:14 PM »
I think he was pointing that comment directly at me, because I plan to retire in my twin turbo van and live a fantastic life rock climbing, biking, hiking, star gazing, total solar eclipse chasing, kayaking, river rafting and backpacking. We certainly don't eat crappy food but if you are used to a normal consumerism life the choices I am making might seem uncomfortable. It's not like I won't be making money or still building wealth though.

Diesel?

acroy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1697
  • Age: 46
  • Location: Dallas TX
    • SWAMI
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2017, 12:57:21 PM »
Welcome and congratulations OP, you are in a great position!

Far from being unpopular, mortgage debates are very popular ;)  I look at the residence as a large non-liquid asset; I prefer to let the bank own it, than own it 100% myself and have the non-diversified investment risk. Further, the interest is deductible assuming you can itemize taxes, which drives the actual interest rate down.

I your shoes I would:
-Max out tax advantaged accounts
-develop a 'Plan'! As others above reference, depending on spending, you can be FIRE in a few years. At least sit down and take the time to map out several scenarios: the 5,10, 20yr plans if you will.
-pro-actively work on lifestyle optimization, if you have not done this already. i.e. what are you doing, and why, particularity when it comes to money and more importantly, time. This will help you with the Plan.

Good luck!

hoping2retire35

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
  • Location: UPCOUNTRY CAROLINA
  • just want to see where this appears
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2017, 01:17:31 PM »
Welcome and congratulations OP, you are in a great position!

Far from being unpopular, mortgage debates are very popular ;)  I look at the residence as a large non-liquid asset; I prefer to let the bank own it, than own it 100% myself and have the non-diversified investment risk. Further, the interest is deductible assuming you can itemize taxes, which drives the actual interest rate down.

I your shoes I would:
-Max out tax advantaged accounts
-develop a 'Plan'! As others above reference, depending on spending, you can be FIRE in a few years. At least sit down and take the time to map out several scenarios: the 5,10, 20yr plans if you will.
-pro-actively work on lifestyle optimization, if you have not done this already. i.e. what are you doing, and why, particularity when it comes to money and more importantly, time. This will help you with the Plan.

Good luck!

Eh, try 3, 5, and 10 year plans. I would be retired in 2 years flat with your income, even after taxes. With a lot of thought you can be retired/FI before you have a second kid. Think about that.

DumpTruck

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 77
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2017, 02:27:13 PM »
I think he was pointing that comment directly at me, because I plan to retire in my twin turbo van and live a fantastic life rock climbing, biking, hiking, star gazing, total solar eclipse chasing, kayaking, river rafting and backpacking. We certainly don't eat crappy food but if you are used to a normal consumerism life the choices I am making might seem uncomfortable. It's not like I won't be making money or still building wealth though.

Diesel?

Nay, it's gasoline. 3.5 liter twin turbo Ford Transit - 400 lb.ft torque at 2000 RPM and 310 HP. It's crazy fast.

There are some pics of the build in this thread http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/introductions/47722-great-white-whale-2015-3-5-hr-lwb-extended.html

NoStacheOhio

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Cleveland
Re: Large Income/Young/Help!
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2017, 05:04:58 PM »
I think he was pointing that comment directly at me, because I plan to retire in my twin turbo van and live a fantastic life rock climbing, biking, hiking, star gazing, total solar eclipse chasing, kayaking, river rafting and backpacking. We certainly don't eat crappy food but if you are used to a normal consumerism life the choices I am making might seem uncomfortable. It's not like I won't be making money or still building wealth though.

Diesel?

Nay, it's gasoline. 3.5 liter twin turbo Ford Transit - 400 lb.ft torque at 2000 RPM and 310 HP. It's crazy fast.

There are some pics of the build in this thread http://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/introductions/47722-great-white-whale-2015-3-5-hr-lwb-extended.html

Transit <3

Though I like the baby ones.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!