My ex got fired this week . . .

[Zamboni]

Tuesday morning I got a surprising call from my ex that he had been fired from his very high paying job. He was understandably upset as he didn't really see if coming, but he is in upper management and had been having some disagreements with his boss about the best strategy for the company. This sort of thing happens at that level. I think what really upset him is that they say it is "for cause," but there hasn't been any misconduct at all, just disagreement about business issues (and it is part of his job to offer opinions about potential options.) Anyway, I only know one side of the story, but encouraged him to apply for unemployment benefits anyway and also suggested he call an attorney based upon other factors.

He called to make sure I get the kids switched to my insurance. He is freaking out because now he says he "doesn't have enough money to survive for very long." Unfortunately he has always been extremely high income, extremely high burn rate (huge house with equally huge mortgage, eats out literally every meal, many expensive trips, luxury cars, etc.) We were together for two decades, so I know that he spends as fast as he earns, which was always a bone of contention between us. I still feel compassion for him because, despite all of our differences, he is a nice guy.

All of this makes me grateful to have found this website. I've always been frugal, but this site helped me learn how to better make money work for me. He is stressed about paying bills two months from now. In contrast, firing me would mean I would be just fine for more than a year without dipping into the penalty land of restricted retirement plan money. His call made me look at my liquid funds . . . technically I could make it more than 15 months without blinking an eye . . . and all of that happened for me on autopilot. It's just a different autopilot than most people in the US engage.

Thank you, everyone here, but contributing to that for me.

[dude]

Good on ya.

[pachnik]

I'm sorry to hear about the firing - especially if someone is taken by surprise. 

But good on you applying what you learned on this website.  And that you would be fine financially in such a situation.  For me and maybe you too, the peace of mind is wonderful.

[marty998]

... about the best strategy for the company. This sort of thing happens at that level.

I find it truly fascinating the incredible cognitive dissonance between the job - executive management requires you to actively plan and map out a strategy for a company, manage risk, and forecast performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns - and your personal life - which doesn't seem to require active planning, mapping out a strategy, managing risk and forecasting performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns....

[SC93]

This sort of thing was heavy on my mind when I started my first business back in the 90's. Not long after I got in the adult world I was scared. Scared I'd get fired and then what would I do? So eventually I started up a couple of businesses and ended up in the residential cleaning business. That was when I felt secure. I had a few hundred customers and knew that if 10 people fired me every day for 2 work weeks I could still manage to have the same income (I'd have to work more but I could make the same).

I really don't understand how anyone can feel secure or feel independent when working for someone else. I hate depending on someone else.

I know people like your ex, I get scared for them.

[Schaefer Light]

I really don't understand how anyone can feel secure or feel independent when working for someone else. I hate depending on someone else.

That's a big reason why I'm motivated to reach financial independence (though not necessarily retirement) as soon as possible.  I think it's a big motivator for a lot of the people on this site.

[Zette]

Why should the kids switch to your insurance?  He should have access to his current insurance through CORBA for an extended period of time.  This move is just shifting the cost to you.

[MightyAl]

Why should the kids switch to your insurance?  He should have access to his current insurance through CORBA for an extended period of time.  This move is just shifting the cost to you.

COBRA simply makes your companies insurance available to you after you have separated.  They will no longer bear the burden of cost and the ex-employee pays the full amount which sometimes doubles the monthly cost or more.  If the OP is still employed the cost of insurance will be far less and the ex will still be responsible for the cost if that is what has been agreed to. 

[Zamboni]

Yes, I'm not sure people who have never had to deal with it understand how COBRA works. His premiums will be hugely higher . . . although they haven't even sent him the information yet.

Fortunately, I have excellent insurance and this qualifies as a life changing event, so I can add the children to mine. My premiums will go from ~$140/month to $370/month. But if I needed COBRA, it would be over $800/month just for me and over $1300 for me and the children. Then there is an additional line in the handbook that says "for an additional 11 months of COBRA if social security disabled" the premium then becomes $1878/month for me and the children. Wow. :-0

I find it truly fascinating the incredible cognitive dissonance between the job - executive management requires you to actively plan and map out a strategy for a company, manage risk, and forecast performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns - and your personal life - which doesn't seem to require active planning, mapping out a strategy, managing risk and forecasting performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns....

I know . . . there is a level of crazy in this . . . that's a whole topic in itself.

[Josiecat]

Will this impact your child support?

[Kaybee]

Going back to Zamboni’s theme of being thankful that this site has allowed her to not have to really worry about this kind of thing.  I’d like to add my thanks as well.  I’m not nearly as Mustachian as most people here but I’m still extreme to the rest of the world.  I was injured and have landed on short term disability at my job and when my coworkers regretfully informed me I would only be getting 60% of my pay until I’m off disability, I was initially worried (due to my childhood, money is a huge stressor for me).  I rushed home in a mild panic, sat down and looked at my balances and thought “oh...so this is really just an annoying situation.  I’m going to be fine!”

I wouldn’t be able to get through this situation if I hadn’t found this site.  I won’t be able to put money away until I’m back to work but at least I’m not having to take loans out to get through the next few months. :)

[Slee_stack]

Some good , positive messages coming out of this thread.

Involuntary termination is nearly always incredibly stressful to the affected.

Being Mustachian removes so much stress from the equation.

My mindset once used to be one of unhealthy worry about the possibility of termination to...I kid you not...genuine excitement about getting the possibility.

What a long strange trip its been.

[MrMoneySaver]

Some good , positive messages coming out of this thread.

Involuntary termination is nearly always incredibly stressful to the affected.

Being Mustachian removes so much stress from the equation.

My mindset once used to be one of unhealthy worry about the possibility of termination to...I kid you not...genuine excitement about getting the possibility.

What a long strange trip its been.

Yes. I used to worry about that all the time, too. Having some money put away, even if it's not full FU money, really helps me to feel better.

[Davids]

Does your ex pay you child support? If so is that going to be an issue?

[MrThatsDifferent]

... about the best strategy for the company. This sort of thing happens at that level.

I find it truly fascinating the incredible cognitive dissonance between the job - executive management requires you to actively plan and map out a strategy for a company, manage risk, and forecast performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns - and your personal life - which doesn't seem to require active planning, mapping out a strategy, managing risk and forecasting performance and availability of capital in the event of downturns....

This is one of the things that truly shifted my mindset: After reading about MMM, I was reflecting how I’m so good at managing a business and the expenses at work, but so bad and ignorant at managing my own personal finances, and then I committed myself to looking after myself the same, if not better, than I look after an organization that I am disposable to.

[sokoloff]

I think what really upset him is that they say it is "for cause," but there hasn't been any misconduct at all, just disagreement about business issues (and it is part of his job to offer opinions about potential options.)

(In the US,) "Fired for cause" is generally much more than simple strategy disagreements and if that's all it was, he should absolutely challenge the "for cause" claim.

If they're paying him severance, it's probably not "for cause".
If they're not paying him severance, they're probably treating it as "for cause" (and he should probably employment lawyer up).

[RyanAtTanagra]

My mindset once used to be one of unhealthy worry about the possibility of termination to...I kid you not...genuine excitement about getting the possibility.

Some, on both sides.  I fantasize about being let go.  Earlier this year there was a huge, sudden, mandatory company meeting which never happens.  People were worried.  'What if they're closing the company?  What would you do?'  'That'd be awesome!  It's nice out, I'd go sailing.'  'Yea but then what?'  '*shrug* something, I'm sure'  *that look like I'm an simpleton or an alien*

It's been so long since I've been worried about losing my job I have a hard time empathizing with friends when they're stressed about the BS they have ('have' in quotes?) to put up with at work, because I just don't anymore, and haven't for a while.  It's the best aspect of the FIRE journey so far.

[SwordGuy]

Congrats on getting your act together!

Hope the collateral damage to your family isn't too bad.

[Zamboni]

Thank you for the well wishes, everyone!

Will this impact your child support?

Does your ex pay you child support? If so is that going to be an issue?

He can petition the court for a change in the child support order if he wants to do that. He is paying support directly to the clerk of court, and then they forward to me. The current arrangement resulted from him not paying me for nearly a year many years ago. The court never garnished his paycheck (at his request), but he is on the hook to pay that or face legal consequences unless he take appropriate steps to get the court order changed. I suppose, if he is unemployed for long enough, I could end up paying him child support. For now I am not going to worry about it. I have enough flexibility in my finances to deal with whatever happens.

I think what really upset him is that they say it is "for cause," but there hasn't been any misconduct at all, just disagreement about business issues (and it is part of his job to offer opinions about potential options.)

(In the US,) "Fired for cause" is generally much more than simple strategy disagreements and if that's all it was, he should absolutely challenge the "for cause" claim.

If they're paying him severance, it's probably not "for cause".
If they're not paying him severance, they're probably treating it as "for cause" (and he should probably employment lawyer up).

They are not paying him severance. Yes, he needs a lawyer. It sounds like there was some kind of policy or strategy-related masculine pissing match and he lost, but he never did anything like skip work or show up drunk or steal or punch someone. It really does sound like it was a disagreement, he was not diplomatic enough (diplomacy is not his strong suit), and now his boss is now in vengeance mode.

I hope he appeals that so he can get severance or at least unemployment benefits.

[nara]

This could potentially be a life changing experience that will guide him to a more positive direction financially. 7 years ago I was fired unexpectedly from a job, when a new supervisor had a personal conflict with me. At that time I was living paycheck to paycheck. I had even agreed to stay on for 2 weeks so that I could train my replacement just because I had no FU money and it was right before Christmas! Humiliating.

Anyway, I came to the realization that there is no job security in being an employee. I decided that I never wanted to be at the mercy of a boss so I struggled for sever months (relying on unemployment, food stamps, credit cards, and family loans) to start my business as an independent contractor. It wasn't long before I surpassed my previous salary on less hours. And now, 7 years later, I employ 6 full time professionals and have an extremely high income and am well on the way to FIRE. I know that I will never be in that horrible and scary position again of being dependent on a job for my livelihood.

[Zamboni]

^Great job, and thank you for sharing your positive story!

He has been laid off before (a couple of times, actually, when entire facilities were being moved overseas.) He's never been fired, and he is taking it really hard. The lay offs did not seem to change his high burn rate, though, and I'd be surprised if this event has much of an effect.

Some of his employees have called him over the weekend to thank him for all he did for them . . . as I said, he's not a bad guy. He has always been willing to go to bat for his people.

[alexpkeaton]

If they're not paying him severance, they're probably treating it as "for cause" (and he should probably employment lawyer up).

As an at-will employee it probably won't do him any good unless he's got evidence he war fired for some illegal reason. But otherwise your employer can fire you for whatever reason (or no reason) they like with no notice. If he was constantly disagreeing with his superior, though in good faith, it could just be chalked up as "not a team player" and that's all it takes.

[SC93]

Schaefer Light, I guess you are correct but it would really suck to go so many years with that weighing on your mind. I remember when I made $1840 a month back in the early 90's and I asked my boss if my job was secure because I was going to rent a house. lol Her answer was.... as far as I know it is but you never know about corporate. They could let us all go at any time. That was when I knew I had to go out on my own. The ending to the story was that within 1 year we were all 'let go'. Best thing that ever happened to me although I didn't think so at the time.

[nara]

If they're not paying him severance, they're probably treating it as "for cause" (and he should probably employment lawyer up).

As an at-will employee it probably won't do him any good unless he's got evidence he war fired for some illegal reason. But otherwise your employer can fire you for whatever reason (or no reason) they like with no notice. If he was constantly disagreeing with his superior, though in good faith, it could just be chalked up as "not a team player" and that's all it takes.

He will definitely qualify for unemployment and may even potentially have a lawsuit if he was provided with no warnings leading up to his termination. Employment is technically at will and an employee can be fired for whatever reason the employer wants--but this also leaves the employer open to unemployment claims and lawsuits. Employers are supposed to keep documentation of all verbal and written warnings. No employee should be let go for performance without the employer at least alerting the employee to there being a problem.

[Zamboni]

He did apply for unemployment last week, and today they talked to him on the phone to say it should start up next week, so that is positive.

He has also already applied to a few jobs and made several contacts with legal practices. At a minimum he wants a lawyer lined up in case the company appeals his unemployment claim, but he also lost a very large amount of stock options when this happened . . . I don't know if that will get anyone to help him or not.

On a more unexpected note, he has started eating in for the most part. I guess he really is worried about running out of money sooner rather than later. On the downside, my son is worried enough about him that he didn't eat lunch at school today (because Dad pays for his lunch and he doesn't want his dad to run out of money.) Ugh!

[alexpkeaton]

He will definitely qualify for unemployment and may even potentially have a lawsuit if he was provided with no warnings leading up to his termination. Employment is technically at will and an employee can be fired for whatever reason the employer wants--but this also leaves the employer open to unemployment claims and lawsuits. Employers are supposed to keep documentation of all verbal and written warnings. No employee should be let go for performance without the employer at least alerting the employee to there being a problem.

Says who? If that's company policy, and they ignore that policy for to fire one employee, sure you've got a case. But if there is no such policy? Then you've got fuck all.

[Zamboni]

Updating because things have gotten more interesting:

1. Both his former boss and his former boss's boss got laid off yesterday. Please note that this is less than one month after they fired him.
2. The unemployment office ruled that his termination was not for cause or misconduct. This is good as at least he gets unemployment checks now.
3. At least four of his former employees have called him to say they are going to HR to complain about his termination. He has cautioned them to not risk their own jobs.

He is again thinking about going after them with legal action for a severance settlement. In addition to his insurance and pay stopping instantaneously, he also lost $75000 in stock options. He now asserts that they fired him to avoid paying contractual severance benefits during the layoffs.

Ironically, his boss told him very directly he was fired because in a strategy meeting (with only upper managers) he had said lay offs could be used to right their sinking ship. He actually suggested 4 possibly pathways for "fixing" the company's financial situation, and one of these strategies (the last one) was lay offs. Hmmm.

What do you think?

[sokoloff]

I don't think anyone here is going to be able to help much.

I agree that the recent developments are more positive than a "for cause" termination, but this is going to get settled in a venue other than an internet forum. I wish your ex the best outcome, because it does sound like he got screwed.

[Bicycle_B]

Layoffs and weak company finances don't make it sound as if the 75k value for options is realistic.  He is already getting unemployment.  He should briefly cost/benefit analyze the lawyer path with a lawyer's advice on initial consultation, being honest about whatever documentation he has/doesn't have.  He and lawyer should consider the possibility of opening and settling a lawsuit - then follow the money.  I'm agnostic on the likely outcome of the calculation but if the company's failing, he should get on with his life either way, much as he is doing. 

In any case, if his boss got fired too, the references problem is now SOLVED!  Plus he can put on his resume "Selflessly recommended cost cutting policies that company followed to great effect, proven team player with skin in the game, high stakes recommendations were put into action, successfully recommended company-saving financial plan in high-stakes decision environment" or some such on his resume.  This isn't the sad story of a confusing job loss, it's the dramatic war story of a can-do executive who's already shown grace under pressure.  We want this battle-hardened veteran on our team to make tough decisions!  Tell him to saddle up and ride, cowboy.  Anyway, a few home-cooked beans on the trail to the new job won't hurt anyone. 

Zamboni, so happy for you on the Mustache front!  Hopefully your influence will soon be calming to Dear Son.  Teachable moment and all that, I'm sure he and you will be just fine soon enough.  Btw, I really like your many contributions to the forum.  In the meantime, will await next installment of Other People's Lives...  ;)

[MrThatsDifferent]

Updating because things have gotten more interesting:

1. Both his former boss and his former boss's boss got laid off yesterday. Please note that this is less than one month after they fired him.
2. The unemployment office ruled that his termination was not for cause or misconduct. This is good as at least he gets unemployment checks now.
3. At least four of his former employees have called him to say they are going to HR to complain about his termination. He has cautioned them to not risk their own jobs.

He is again thinking about going after them with legal action for a severance settlement. In addition to his insurance and pay stopping instantaneously, he also lost $75000 in stock options. He now asserts that they fired him to avoid paying contractual severance benefits during the layoffs.

Ironically, his boss told him very directly he was fired because in a strategy meeting (with only upper managers) he had said lay offs could be used to right their sinking ship. He actually suggested 4 possibly pathways for "fixing" the company's financial situation, and one of these strategies (the last one) was lay offs. Hmmm.

What do you think?

Personally, for me, for 75k, I’d pursue it because most likely there would be a settlement before it went to trial. I’d want a lawyer or someone with good negotiation skills to approach them, discuss the injustice and see if there is a way to make the situation better. The risk is that, if they are financially desperate, they might resist and your ex would burn Lawyer money he can’t afford. Now that evil boss is out, maybe there is someone with influence who likes your ex that he can approach to revisit the situation? 

[Zamboni]

Thank you for the thoughts, everyone. I had not thought about any reference problem being solved . . . that is a very good point! It is probably a good idea to talk with him about reframing his narrative once he is in the mindset to be able to do that.

The company is big and it was just their division that was floundering . . . the stock options are definitely worth something.

I will share these points with him.

[alexpkeaton]

He is again thinking about going after them with legal action for a severance settlement. In addition to his insurance and pay stopping instantaneously, he also lost $75000 in stock options. He now asserts that they fired him to avoid paying contractual severance benefits during the layoffs.

...

What do you think?

"Contractual" severance? This either sounds like new information we didn't have before. Did he actually have an employment contract?

Because, again, if he was an at will employee, the fact that he lost his unvested options doesn't mean anything one way or the other. Even if he were to get some severance, he likely has no claim on the unvested options. I mean, maybe if you can prove he was fired specifically so they wouldn't vest? That seems like a stretch.

It seems to be the unpopular opinion in this thread, but I think hiring a lawyer is just going to end up costing money he doesn't have. It honestly doesn't sound like he has a very strong case.

[RecoveringCarClown]

Now that the folks that got rid of him are now gone, why not try some honey before vinegar and see if he can get a job back there, maybe not the same exact position but I would expect he could be useful to the new organization in some capacity. It sounds like some people liked him there, reach out and find out who the new wo/man in charge is.  Maybe offer to start as a contractor so there is low risk.

[oldtoyota]

This could potentially be a life changing experience that will guide him to a more positive direction financially. 7 years ago I was fired unexpectedly from a job, when a new supervisor had a personal conflict with me. At that time I was living paycheck to paycheck. I had even agreed to stay on for 2 weeks so that I could train my replacement just because I had no FU money and it was right before Christmas! Humiliating.

Anyway, I came to the realization that there is no job security in being an employee. I decided that I never wanted to be at the mercy of a boss so I struggled for sever months (relying on unemployment, food stamps, credit cards, and family loans) to start my business as an independent contractor. It wasn't long before I surpassed my previous salary on less hours. And now, 7 years later, I employ 6 full time professionals and have an extremely high income and am well on the way to FIRE. I know that I will never be in that horrible and scary position again of being dependent on a job for my livelihood.

I have a similar story, though I sometimes think about returning to a regular job. What type of work do you do?

[Zamboni]

Now that the folks that got rid of him are now gone, why not try some honey before vinegar and see if he can get a job back there, maybe not the same exact position but I would expect he could be useful to the new organization in some capacity. It sounds like some people liked him there, reach out and find out who the new wo/man in charge is.  Maybe offer to start as a contractor so there is low risk.

This is a good idea. Thanks!