Mustachians and Labor Unions?

[T-Money$]

What do Mustachians think about labor Unions?

They exist in my career.  After years of seeing the lack of democracy, seniority lists which arbitrarily put mediocre workers in position of power and authority, corruption, B-scaling junior workers, manipulative politics...well, they don't seem very Mustachian at all. 

Without a doubt they do some positive work, but the trend seems to be towards inefficiency and corruption. 

I'm not allowed to not pay dues, so all this is a theoretical discussion, but they do seem to give more headaches than benefits in my view.  At least in my field...I would assume in a more homogeneous society like Denmark they may be more useful?

[seattlecyclone]

I was in a labor union for two years and was not terribly impressed with them. They took my money each paycheck, but failed to complete negotiations for our employment contract until after I left because they were unwilling to abandon unreasonable demands. I'm glad that labor unions have in the past given us things like weekends, but do not feel that adding one to my current employment situation would be a positive development.

[GuitarStv]

Unions are a check/balance to the power that employers have over employees.  They're not perfect . . . problems with corruption, protecting incompetence, and reducing productivity do occasionally crop up with unions.  That said, I've also seen them used effectively to push back against overzealous management descisions, unsafe work conditions, and to fight for the rights and fair compensation of workers.

There are certainly exceptions, but generally I've had more good experiences with unions than bad.

[Imma]

We are proud members of the union, but we're in Europe, where things might be different.

I have not witnessed any kind of corruption or incompetence in the union. How does that happen over there?

Sadly, both my partner and I work for businesses where not many workers are members of the union, so they don't hold much bargaining power in our personal workplaces. It's still nice to know you're only a phone call away from quality legal advice in case you're not sure about something and we've used that a lot in the past as the company my partner works for has a habit of breaking the law left, right and center. If only more coworkers would join, they'd actually be able to make a difference.

I am also active as a volunteer for the union. I help members file their income taxes. This is a life safer especially for low educated / low income workers, who don't have the knowledge to file their own taxes or the funds to pay someone to do it. I've literally had people cry at my desk because I told them they'd get a massive tax return they didn't expect. We also offer a service where people can take in official letters that they don't understand and we support our members through legal procedures.

I feel like my work for the union is a lot more important than the work I do to earn money. If I ever FIRE, helping out the low income worker at the bottom of the corporate ladder is one of the things I'll spend my time on. I am from a dirt poor working class background and I feel a strong urge to give back to the people who didn't have the lucky escape I had.

[Zikoris]

I'm not crazy about things like seniority systems, endless regulations of ridiculous stuff, and using union dues to make political donations or television ads. I think the current version of them in Canada is basically insane.

[marty998]

I'm not crazy about things like seniority systems, endless regulations of ridiculous stuff, and using union dues to make political donations or television ads. I think the current version of them in Canada is basically insane.

This is the same in Australia. All unions here are nominally left wing (except the CEO union, sorry, the Business Council of Australia), ok, maybe the Minarals Council, the Farmers Federation, the council of small businesses.... love how they all refer to themselves as councils and federations, but they perform the same function - lobbying. But I digress....

Some actually belong to sub factions - e.g. the retail workers union identifies as conservative catholic.

Immediately tells me that workers rights are not front and centre, when your union is arguing for policies in keeping with a certain set of non-work related values.

[J Boogie]

I tend to think of most unions as having reached their "decadent phase."

Steven Pinker gives an interesting talk about legitimate movements that mostly achieve their goal and reach a phase where they go after increasingly obscure grievances. 

He says rights revolutions all tend to follow this pattern, so I guess in many places the labor rights revolution has reached its decadent phase. 

Everyone I know who is in a union tells stories that fit this description.  Unfortunately the real victims of this decadent phase are employees, who pay dues that their free-market peers do not and find themselves no more protected.

I don't think they should all dissolve today though.  That'd be like the US ridding itself of nuclear weapons.  There isn't enough mutual trust at this point, so as wasteful as they might be, they're pretty necessary.

[clarkfan1979]

I was part of the state workers labor union in Florida, as a college prof. It was a joke because the union didn't have the right to strike. I opted out of the 1%.

During the recession, our salaries were decreased by 5% over two years, even though I had a signed contract stating that I would make "X" amount of dollars. The union battled it all the way to the Supreme Court of Florida, but lost 3-2.

Today, I belong to the state workers labor union of Hawaii, as a college prof. Unions are valued much more in Hawaii and they have the right to strike. I gladly contribute the 1%.

My uncle owns an excavating company and is union. They are more expensive, but provide a higher level of product and service. Under these conditions, I think it works.

[Goldielocks]

The union that I am (involuntarily) part of as a part timer has about 600 part time members, and 200 full time members.

I have found out through needing help with an issue that the part timers do not have any represenation, except at the most senior level (via the lawyer they hire directly), for the most egregious issues only.

I certainly do not like paying union dues when they do just about nothing for me, even when I ask to have a conversation about an issue I am having.

[cairnstone]

Unions are the most logical (or perhaps just least violent) way to counter a monopoly on employment. When a single employer dominates an industry, or several companies collude on wages, the union tries to create a monopoly on labor to provide a balance. So, there are certain areas where unions make absolute sense. And their contributions to the US economic structure have been immense. But it seems like most unions exist these days more out of inertia than out of real need. As long as companies are competing for workers, even just a little, unions start to do more damage than good.

As someone who has been involved in three different union complaints because I got tired of waiting for someone to get around to doing their job, perhaps I am a little biased.

[Zikoris]

As someone who has been involved in three different union complaints because I got tired of waiting for someone to get around to doing their job, perhaps I am a little biased.

Yup. My first full time job was union, out of desperation, since I moved out on my own and needed money asap. Th union rep was constantly on my ass about something. The biggest no-nos were working too fast and doing other tasks when I finished my own, which I just kept doing anyway because I felt like it. Also, having totally open availability meant I was able to grab way more extra shifts than anyone else, which pissed off the union people as well since I had no seniority. After that, I said "Never again", and have stuck with that - I would have to be in truly dire circumstances to ever even consider getting involved with a union again.

[Silverado]

As someone who has been involved in three different union complaints because I got tired of waiting for someone to get around to doing their job, perhaps I am a little biased.

Yup. My first full time job was union, out of desperation, since I moved out on my own and needed money asap. Th union rep was constantly on my ass about something. The biggest no-nos were working too fast and doing other tasks when I finished my own, which I just kept doing anyway because I felt like it. Also, having totally open availability meant I was able to grab way more extra shifts than anyone else, which pissed off the union people as well since I had no seniority. After that, I said "Never again", and have stuck with that - I would have to be in truly dire circumstances to ever even consider getting involved with a union again.

This sums up my view. Had their place decades ago, not anymore.

[Dave1442397]

As someone who has been involved in three different union complaints because I got tired of waiting for someone to get around to doing their job, perhaps I am a little biased.

Yup. My first full time job was union, out of desperation, since I moved out on my own and needed money asap. Th union rep was constantly on my ass about something. The biggest no-nos were working too fast and doing other tasks when I finished my own, which I just kept doing anyway because I felt like it. Also, having totally open availability meant I was able to grab way more extra shifts than anyone else, which pissed off the union people as well since I had no seniority. After that, I said "Never again", and have stuck with that - I would have to be in truly dire circumstances to ever even consider getting involved with a union again.

This sums up my view. Had their place decades ago, not anymore.

Yes, they had their time and place, but now, not so much.

My uncle worked as a press operator for the NY Times and The Post. By union regulation, a certain number of operators were required for each press. However, in reality, they needed half that many people. He would work four days while punching in a co-worker, and then the co-worker would punch him in for four days. He was making around $120,000/yr back in 1985.

[Duke03]

I'm union. The union like any organization isn't perfect and surely has it's own faults.  I cringe every time I hear someone claim unions are out dated....  How long do you think greedy corporations would wait to cut every corner to save a buck and put their employees and the publics safety at risk.  The unions keep companies honest when it comes to safety and having the right training for the job. I see counterparts at scab outfits that aren't qualified to do the job of a door greater screw up all the time.  I'm talking screw ups that can and have cost millions of dollars.  The scab company doesn't care because they think in the long run they are saving money by paying some schmuck 10hr with no benefits.

We've all heard the second hand story of the union guy that gets paid to sleep..... or not even show up.... from your uncle.....  Truth is my union will out someone that isn't carrying their own weight or isn't safe or shouldn't be in the job to begin with.  We weed through those guys all the time.

[Teachstache]

I'm union. The union like any organization isn't perfect and surely has it's own faults.  I cringe every time I hear someone claim unions are out dated....  How long do you think greedy corporations would wait to cut every corner to save a buck and put their employees and the publics safety at risk.  The unions keep companies honest when it comes to safety and having the right training for the job. I see counterparts at scab outfits that aren't qualified to do the job of a door greater screw up all the time.  I'm talking screw ups that can and have cost millions of dollars.  The scab company doesn't care because they think in the long run they are saving money by paying some schmuck 10hr with no benefits.

We've all heard the second hand story of the union guy that gets paid to sleep..... or not even show up.... from your uncle.....  Truth is my union will out someone that isn't carrying their own weight or isn't safe or shouldn't be in the job to begin with.  We weed through those guys all the time.

This. Proud and active union member here. A great line that I heard from my professional organization: we can't protect people who make poor choices. Do your job, do it well, and we'll back you up.

[Imma]

As someone who has been involved in three different union complaints because I got tired of waiting for someone to get around to doing their job, perhaps I am a little biased.

Yup. My first full time job was union, out of desperation, since I moved out on my own and needed money asap. Th union rep was constantly on my ass about something. The biggest no-nos were working too fast and doing other tasks when I finished my own, which I just kept doing anyway because I felt like it. Also, having totally open availability meant I was able to grab way more extra shifts than anyone else, which pissed off the union people as well since I had no seniority. After that, I said "Never again", and have stuck with that - I would have to be in truly dire circumstances to ever even consider getting involved with a union again.

Wow, union people actually get involved with what you do at work on a day to day basis?

From what I read here, unions are very different in the US than they are in my country. Of course, certain unions have loose associations with certain political parties (for example, the left wing union and the labour party) but it would be absolutely unacceptable for a union to endorse a certain party / candidate or to donate money to their campaign. On a national lobby I do believe the union is an important lobby group. Multinationals can contact government ministers directly, organisations of employers and certain business fields  have their lobbyists. I think it's important the government not only hears from Starbucks and the national organisation of banks. Someone needs to speak up for the workers, too.

On a personal level, the unions offer all kinds of services that are widely used. There's a phone nr you can always call to speak to a legal expert, they offer help with complicated official paperwork and legal procedures, all for free. The €15 / month we pay for all that, is more than worth it.

I think it's too optimistic to think that we don't need unions anymore. If you're a consultant earning $100.000 you don't need a union. You have the power and the skills to work with your employer directly and if they don't give in to your demands, you leave. But there are millions of people in construction, in customer services, in factories, in domestic services, in the food business, in agri, and they don't have those skills or your bargaining power. They can leave, but their only option is doing similar work elsewhere. I see people doing this work all the time and almost without exception they are exploited. I have met people who live in conditions that are near slavery. This is unacceptable in the first world in the 21st century. As long as millions of people still work under these conditions, we need unions.

And no, saying 'they need to find a better job' or 'they should learn skills online' is not the answer. Many of these people have chaotic family backgrounds, often have low IQ, they work 60-80 hours a week, many of them are barely literate, they often struggle with debt. As long as they're living in these conditions, self-improvement is very hard. Plus, we do actually need people for the menial jobs too. They just need to get the respect white collar workers get.

[Drifterrider]

I support collective bargaining.  I oppose closed shop.

[Hedge_87]

I support collective bargaining.  I oppose closed shop.

+1

[Imma]

I support collective bargaining.  I oppose closed shop.

+1

I actually had to google that. It's not legal in my country and I agree, that's an extremely stupid idea. It's a recipe for corruption and clientelism.

I am 100% pro unions, but I'm also 100% freedom of choice. A trade union is a not-for-profit organisation that you join as a private person and your employer should not have a say in whether you join, or choose not to. Either way it should be your personal decision. When unions are involved in collective bargaining in my country, the end result is valid for everyone, not just for members. But it's the union's job to support the worker, not run the company.

[seattlecyclone]

I support collective bargaining.  I oppose closed shop.

Yep, this pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. As I said above, my experience with a union in the past was not positive so I wouldn't be inclined to join one today, but if someone else wants to join one that's fine with me. I just don't want the union forming an exclusive contract with my employer so that the only options would be to join or find a different job.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I'm not crazy about things like seniority systems, endless regulations of ridiculous stuff, and using union dues to make political donations or television ads. I think the current version of them in Canada is basically insane.

+1.

I think unions were critical to get our society from Point A to Point B in terms of labour standards, safety, etc. But now there's a whole lotta crap going on -stuff Zikoris said, plus protecting employees that should not be protected, creating unnecessary costs, running some businesses and even non-profits into the ground, ignoring their own members' voices, etc.

They need to sort themselves out if they want people to regain confidence in them. Many people are attempting to reduce union excess, via provincial and municipal election votes. They don't seem to be hearing why yet.

However, per the cushiness and protections in some union jobs, I can only encourage my child to aim for one of those positions!

[MrMoogle]

The unions keep companies honest when it comes to safety and having the right training for the job. I see counterparts at scab outfits that aren't qualified to do the job of a door greater screw up all the time.  I'm talking screw ups that can and have cost millions of dollars.  The scab company doesn't care because they think in the long run they are saving money by paying some schmuck 10hr with no benefits.

We've all heard the second hand story of the union guy that gets paid to sleep..... or not even show up.... from your uncle.....  Truth is my union will out someone that isn't carrying their own weight or isn't safe or shouldn't be in the job to begin with.  We weed through those guys all the time.

This hasn't been my experience dealing with them.  My previous company actually stopped manufacturing in-house in order to get rid of them.  Our in-house failure rate was around 50%, where an engineer would have to come in a debug the issue.  When we switched to the cheaper shop down the road, it dropped to 2%. This is a product we had been making for 30 years.  They also got the finish product out twice as fast, not including the time it took us to fix the failures.  I never learned how much money we saved, but we were paying people right out of high school the same rate as new grads in engineering. 

I'm guessing this is one of the more extreme cases, our management didn't have much backbone and agreed to pretty much all union demands.  Also, the union had been around for a very long time, so it was able to compound for longer.

[J Boogie]

I chalk up the mixed bag you get with unions just due to differences in people.

Even when nothing is stopping them from loafing, some people prefer to work hard and take pride in their work.

[Davids]

I knew someone who owned a restaurant. He hired non union people to do some work on pipes. The local union was so frustrated they picketed and put up signs telling people to never eat there. They are a bunch of bullies as far as I am concerned. All my friend did was hire someone who was not in a union because it was cheaper and he got shafted for it.

[mathlete]

For a group of financially minded, talented, and driven people (like those on this forum), unions probably provide little value.

Like all groups run by humans, labor unions are subject to corruption.

Still though, it's hard not to notice that the decline in organized labor (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/union-membership-rate-10-point-7-percent-in-2016.htm) has coincided with a drop in DB pensions (https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html), rising inequality (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html) and the emergence of DC plans and HSAs, which disproportionately benefit high income employees.

This works out phenomenally for someone like me who can max out my 401k and HSA and is cruising towards FIRE.

I spend a good 30 minutes a week thinking about how these trends impact others though.

[wonkette]

Proud unionist here. And I thank my union for putting me and my colleagues on the path to FIRE decades before I had my current job. In fact when I first discovered MMM it reminded me of the now retired old timers who obsessed over the job of (defined contribution) pension trustee. We have access to great vanguard funds, employer pays half the low fees anyway, and a short vesting period.

[ncornilsen]

Well, I grew up in a house where the street facing side was lined with 1/4" steel plate. why? Well, when a union 'brother' says striking over a dime an hour is a waste, refused to march for a particular politician, and said he'd vote to decertify on a proposed decertification election, his other union 'brothers' unload a rifle into the side of my house. Fuck unions.  In the early 80's, my grandfather's custom equipment manufacturing company was on the brink of bankruptcy, for a number of reasons. He was open with his workers, no raise this year. We have to get a particular $10mm machine out on time, or the company would have to pay liquidated damages for being late. Well, the union thought that was a great time to strike! Well, it wasn't. They struck so long, at the end of the project, that they missed the delivery. The guys who didn't want to go on strike paid the price with the union agitators - they close thier doors. 150+ people unemployed, my grandpa lost nearly everything. Fuck unions.

I've learned some nuance later in life. Trade unions (pipe fitters, electricians, etc) have my support.  I can get guys from the Hall for a job and other than a few slackers, which are easy enough to reject, I can expect a certain amount of production. they also handle the HR part of the tradesmen and let me flex my workforce. Value add.

Public employee unions I am actively against. There's so much wrong with the incestuous way they conduct themselves that I'm not not going to go into it. But I support a constitutional ban on public employee unions. full stop.

Close shops? absolutely not. No way. Unions add NOTHING to this transaction. All the stereotypes about union shops aside, protecting slackers, etc... all true. But the bargain process made me sick the one time I was around it. They were willing to accept reduced pay and time off, to get "check off." (IE, the company withholds the dues from the worker's check.) They don't care about the employees, they care about thier payments. Later, they were brazen about trading grievances for thier cocksuck cronies. (they would not pursue a grievance for one individual, in exchange for the company not fighting a grievance submitted by one of the shop steward's favorites.)

Not to mention the cost! Employee take home was basically flat after the union came, there were some token improvements to thier healthcare options, but the cost of dealing with the union's bullshit exploded... a cost to the company, of which the workers got nothing.

Employers need a credible unionization threat to keep them honest. I get it. But union reform in this country, is long overdue. Right to work is a good step. I'd trade that for card-check. Preventing unions from participating in politics the way they do is another. I think Europe has some good examples of how this can be done well, for the benefit of everyone.

[Erica]

I only pay $10 a month for an Indemnity plan that basically supplements the regular health plan which has a $1000 deducible and co-pays.

This makes the cost of medical care, where others pay deductibles and co-pays, to almost zero. Plus an accident/life insurance policy built in.

Best $10 a month I've ever spent

The Ameritas Dental plan is $8 a month. Much better plan than Delta by far.

This resulted from the labor union. ^^

They spend our dues supporting political issues I don't agree with

And it's a bit pricey, about $75 a month

But overall, in weighing it out, I think there are far more pluses than minuses.

[SappaCreek]

Decline in union membership correlates pretty well with decline in non-union real wages, as well.  http://www.epi.org/publication/union-decline-lowers-wages-of-nonunion-workers-the-overlooked-reason-why-wages-are-stuck-and-inequality-is-growing/ 

For a group of financially minded, talented, and driven people (like those on this forum), unions probably provide little value.

Like all groups run by humans, labor unions are subject to corruption.

Still though, it's hard not to notice that the decline in organized labor (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/union-membership-rate-10-point-7-percent-in-2016.htm) has coincided with a drop in DB pensions (https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html), rising inequality (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html) and the emergence of DC plans and HSAs, which disproportionately benefit high income employees.

This works out phenomenally for someone like me who can max out my 401k and HSA and is cruising towards FIRE.

I spend a good 30 minutes a week thinking about how these trends impact others though.

[Luck12]

Decline in union membership correlates pretty well with decline in non-union real wages, as well.  http://www.epi.org/publication/union-decline-lowers-wages-of-nonunion-workers-the-overlooked-reason-why-wages-are-stuck-and-inequality-is-growing/ 

For a group of financially minded, talented, and driven people (like those on this forum), unions probably provide little value.

Like all groups run by humans, labor unions are subject to corruption.

Still though, it's hard not to notice that the decline in organized labor (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/union-membership-rate-10-point-7-percent-in-2016.htm) has coincided with a drop in DB pensions (https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html), rising inequality (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html) and the emergence of DC plans and HSAs, which disproportionately benefit high income employees.

This works out phenomenally for someone like me who can max out my 401k and HSA and is cruising towards FIRE.

I spend a good 30 minutes a week thinking about how these trends impact others though.

+1 to both of you.  I don't get why so many Americans are against unions when the empirical evidence is they are a net positive.  This forum leans left and still the responses are mostly against unions.

[ncornilsen]

Decline in union membership correlates pretty well with decline in non-union real wages, as well.  http://www.epi.org/publication/union-decline-lowers-wages-of-nonunion-workers-the-overlooked-reason-why-wages-are-stuck-and-inequality-is-growing/ 

For a group of financially minded, talented, and driven people (like those on this forum), unions probably provide little value.

Like all groups run by humans, labor unions are subject to corruption.

Still though, it's hard not to notice that the decline in organized labor (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/union-membership-rate-10-point-7-percent-in-2016.htm) has coincided with a drop in DB pensions (https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html), rising inequality (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html) and the emergence of DC plans and HSAs, which disproportionately benefit high income employees.

This works out phenomenally for someone like me who can max out my 401k and HSA and is cruising towards FIRE.

I spend a good 30 minutes a week thinking about how these trends impact others though.

+1 to both of you.  I don't get why so many Americans are against unions when the empirical evidence is they are a net positive.  This forum leans left and still the responses are mostly against unions.

They probably have been screwed by them at one point in time or another. It could also be that they recognize that union membership and real wages aren't actually correlated to eachother, rather those are both responses to other economic factors. Or that wage growth has been higher in RTW states.  Or they recognized the implication and reality of violence against members and non-members inherent in union activity... maybe they didn't like the group 6'4 guys the union sends to the plant to bus "select" union members to the polls to "make sure they vote right."

Unionization in the US is a disaster right now, for the employee and employer. Reform is needed... Now. Eventually the pendulum will swing so far against unions that there will actually be a backlash against them, and possibly a regression of worker's rights. If Unions could grow up a bit, they might see some reform and moderation is in thier best interest.

[MrMoogle]

Decline in union membership correlates pretty well with decline in non-union real wages, as well.  http://www.epi.org/publication/union-decline-lowers-wages-of-nonunion-workers-the-overlooked-reason-why-wages-are-stuck-and-inequality-is-growing/ 

For a group of financially minded, talented, and driven people (like those on this forum), unions probably provide little value.

Like all groups run by humans, labor unions are subject to corruption.

Still though, it's hard not to notice that the decline in organized labor (https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/union-membership-rate-10-point-7-percent-in-2016.htm) has coincided with a drop in DB pensions (https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v69n3/v69n3p1.html), rising inequality (https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2015/demo/gini-index-of-money-income-and-equivalence-adjusted-income--1967.html) and the emergence of DC plans and HSAs, which disproportionately benefit high income employees.

This works out phenomenally for someone like me who can max out my 401k and HSA and is cruising towards FIRE.

I spend a good 30 minutes a week thinking about how these trends impact others though.

+1 to both of you.  I don't get why so many Americans are against unions when the empirical evidence is they are a net positive.  This forum leans left and still the responses are mostly against unions.

A net positive for the employees, while they're employed, but not necessarily the company.  If the company loses its competitiveness because of this higher cost, it closes and really hurts the employees.  I'm not convinced "the empirical evidence is they are a net positive."  If they are truly a net positive why are they in decline?

Many Mustachians own stocks which makes them in the owner category.  Less costs means more profits.  That's not my biggest driver though, it's the personal experience I had with them, although I agree it's a small subset of the union population.

[GuitarStv]

There has been a concerted effort to attack and dismantle unions in the past 20-30 years (at least up in our neck of the woods).  There are multiple very strong anti-union lobbyists who spring into action any time a large union goes on strike, or is forced into a strike by employers.  It's not hard to turn people against something that's generally good for all workers through half-truths and by playing on jealousy.

[BlueMR2]

I've had mixed feelings over the years.  Grew up in a union home, but have never been union myself.

Trying to stay objective: They're a curb to management greed, yet they feed their own greed.  You add an extra layer of non-value-added labor to the product, reducing potential effectiveness.  However, sometimes the extra layers do serve their purpose.  As a maker and proponent of freedom, I don't like the fact that the right to collective bargaining infringes on the individual right to work.  I also think it's far too hard to vote out a union.  If you get a bad one, you're pretty much stuck.

On my experiences.  My growing up in a union family left me mostly disappointed with them.  Growing up watching my Dad work hard as a union member, being a union steward, but for what?  Pay comparable to non-union shops.  He worked at a mid-sized place.  When the big places (with all the high paid workers) went on strike, they called him up and he had to help out.  Guess what though?  When his place had trouble, nothing.  The union was never there for us.  All his time and money went to support the fat cat union bosses and the really high paid line workers.  As a steward he'd get saddled with do nothing/worthless people that he wanted (along with management) to fire because they were dragging the place down.  Nope, can't do that, they pay dues which let the union bosses roll around in expensive cars, growing fat off other people's work.  He got nothing back in return, no support whatsoever.  It was a total losing proposition.  The more I've thought about it over the years the more anti-union I've become.  I also witnessed an attempt to organize a union at a place I was working.  The union was doing all kinds of dirty underhanded stuff to undermine the company and there was nothing anyone could do about it.  I lost a TON of respect for the government through that as they not only allowed, but appeared to actually encourage that garbage.  At this point in my life being FI, I'd refuse to work anyplace that has a union.  I don't need any more of their corruption and negativity in my life!

[Luck12]

It's misplaced jealousy and hate.  Instead of being angry at the sociopathic corporations and the upper execs who run them, they get mad at their fellow wage slaves who dare to fight for their rights and benefits.    The powers that be have been so successful in turning workers against each other.   

In the US, corporate income as a % of national income is its highest level in years.    Wage share is at or near its lowest.   So tell me how it is that unions are so powerful and evil?   Or how it is that unions aren't needed anymore? 

There are empirical studies suggesting decline of unions is a big contributor to the rise in inequality, this isn't fake news. 

[trollwithamustache]

Wow, no one has brought up pensions. Union jobs offer excellent total compensation packages, but the problem is a huge amount of value is tied up in the pension.

If you want to MMM and Peace out early? you can't be tied into a pension that you have to put in 30 years on.

[T-Money$]

Interesting conversation.  I've been reading all the replies.  Great stuff, as usual.

My parents were heavily involved in unions and so was I years ago.  I've been extremely disappointed by them and haven't followed in my parents footsteps.  The amount of lying and ego driven politics was too much for me to handle.  Union politics (or the politics and ego of whomever was in charge of the union at the time) would infest everything, usually at the expense of the worker the union was designed to protect.  All of the unions would do their best to present their work in the most positive light (propaganda), all the while hiding as much of their inside dealings and being as opaque as possible.  Anyone questioning or criticizing would be personally attacked to the point of being threatened, if there was collusion with the company they wouldn't be given promotions or could even be fired (regardless of merit).

Greed seemed to come with seniority.  Often B-scaling junior workers with reduced compensation and benefits so the senior workers (whom usually didn't save enough) could make as much as possible before retirement. 

Ironically, the unions wouldn't follow their own advice.  They would fire volunteers or stewards "at will" if they didn't tow the party line.  In amazement, at one union the lawyers and office workers formed their own union to collectively bargain against the union itself, that's how corrupt and dysfunctional things were.  I don't know if that typically takes place, I never heard of it before.

And of course the unions would protect really bad people, sometimes to the point of making martyrs out of them.

I've been on the management side of things too.  Management certainly isn't perfect as well, but market forces seemed to put restraint on most managers, along with state and federal laws regarding employment.  Not to say injustices don't happen, but more often than not the union would manipulate the employees like a fiddle, getting them all worked up about some obscure issue to get them paranoid almost in an attempt to be dependent upon the union itself. 

It all seemed so filthy.  So useful and needed in real life, yet the execution of it seemed like an exercise in dysfunctional narcissism and exploitation.   The unions I was part of seemed to exploit the exact people they are designed to protect and serve.

Not being transparent and avoiding questions through coercion, deceit and manipulation makes me think incompetence or corruption are in full effect.  I don't particularly have a good view of humanity and think most people will drift towards lies and short cuts if they aren't being monitored...the unions sure took that opportunity by the horns it would seem.

[joonifloofeefloo]

It's not hard to turn people against something that's generally good for all workers through half-truths and by playing on jealousy.

...or people turn themselves against the activity of some modern-day unions after direct experience of negative impacts on themselves, the businesses and nonprofits they support, and on their clients.

[Silverado]

It's misplaced jealousy and hate.  Instead of being angry at the sociopathic corporations and the upper execs who run them, they get mad at their fellow wage slaves who dare to fight for their rights and benefits.    The powers that be have been so successful in turning workers against each other.   

In the US, corporate income as a % of national income is its highest level in years.    Wage share is at or near its lowest.   So tell me how it is that unions are so powerful and evil?   Or how it is that unions aren't needed anymore? 

There are empirical studies suggesting decline of unions is a big contributor to the rise in inequality, this isn't fake news.

I have dislike and distrust up the chain also. I am in large equipment development and our union shop is a huge drag on product development. Not the workers, the mob mentality of the shop.

[scantee]

Do unions have the capacity to be ineffective, dysfunctional, or malign? Of course. Any organization of human beings, whether it be familial, religious, business, or community affiliated has a similar destructive capacity. Unions also have the capacity to be effective and positive. If you don't like the course of your union, they best bet is to get involved to reshape it rather than stand on the sidelines and complain because not everything is perfectly to your liking.

There are many industries where unions don't really make sense or aren't necessary and I imagine many forum posters work in those industries. However, there is a continued space and need for unions, mostly in the service industry which employs a lot of working class people that used to work in union manufacturing jobs that have largely disappeared. Union protections for service workers won't be perfect (nothing is) but they would likely provide some stability to workers in that industry.

[Imma]

There are many industries where unions don't really make sense or aren't necessary and I imagine many forum posters work in those industries. However, there is a continued space and need for unions, mostly in the service industry which employs a lot of working class people that used to work in union manufacturing jobs that have largely disappeared. Union protections for service workers won't be perfect (nothing is) but they would likely provide some stability to workers in that industry.

This. I'm not a union member for me: I have a law degree, work in finance, I have serious skills to offer that my boss is prepared to pay a lot for. If he treats me badly, he knows I'm on my way to the competitor. I expect it's this way for most people on MMM. We are intelligent, educated and we have an emergency fund big enough that we can say no if our boss makes an unreasonable or immoral request.

But not everyone is in a position like that and I have seen many people truly exploited and taken advantage of in my union work. Think about all the people who pick the fresh produce that we all eat, the people in fastfood restaurants, in customer service jobs, in grocery stores. I have seen truly terrible situations. These were all jobs that were respectable in the not too distant past. You would be able to raise a family on a job like that and if you put in effort, your job was quite secure.

From the stories here, American unions do sound similar to the mob, obviously that's extremely wrong. If that's truly how they behave I can see why so many people are anti-union.

[dreams_and_discoveries]

Personally I'm anti-union, and feel nowadays there are many more skivvers than people who are exploited.

 

[noplaceliketheroad]

Happy union family here! Both DH and I are in the film industry. DH's union takes 1% of his income, but in return we get free health coverage for him and $25 per month health coverage for me. Really great plans too! He'll have a good pension, and both of us will have health coverage for life. They are great for regulating the amount of hours you can work, how often meal breaks need to be, how many hours off in a row you need to have before the next day, how far you can be expected to drive before mileage reimbursement, and of course, minimum contract agreements. Non union jobs in the industry are not only really low pay, but usually extra long days with bad turn around times and no meals.

[Zikoris]

I think part of the reason this group seems to be more against than for unions is that a lot of the "benefits" are pretty useless to us. Pensions have a tendency to screw over early retirees. Job security isn't very valuable to people with six or seven figure net worths. Mustachians are pretty capable of handling their own salary and benefit negotiations, and probably with better results that most unions could get them.

I'm sure a lot of people could benefit from being in a union, but they certainly seem to fall somewhere between useless and outright harmful to Mustachians.

[joonifloofeefloo]

Well, sure, I can see how people benefiting would like them, lol.
And I know lots of people benefit from past action (already acknowledged) and some from massive perks.

But there's just so much more happening than "massive perks for some people." Those other things, I'm opposed to. I'd love to see unions clean up their act, do great work for certain farmworkers, etc, but let the rest of us thrive and move and explore too. (God forbid I should help out at my local, overwhelmed library, or volunteer on a farm even though that's what my body and soul need, or do my job well instead of be constricted to the point I can't actually serve my client, or facilitate a great nonprofit co-op at the wages agreed on.) The unions need to see more than a narrow range of interests and preferences...and listen to their own members!

[FinallyAwake]

Well, I grew up in a house where the street facing side was lined with 1/4" steel plate. why? Well, when a union 'brother' says striking over a dime an hour is a waste, refused to march for a particular politician, and said he'd vote to decertify on a proposed decertification election, his other union 'brothers' unload a rifle into the side of my house. Fuck unions.  In the early 80's, my grandfather's custom equipment manufacturing company was on the brink of bankruptcy, for a number of reasons. He was open with his workers, no raise this year. We have to get a particular $10mm machine out on time, or the company would have to pay liquidated damages for being late. Well, the union thought that was a great time to strike! Well, it wasn't. They struck so long, at the end of the project, that they missed the delivery. The guys who didn't want to go on strike paid the price with the union agitators - they close thier doors. 150+ people unemployed, my grandpa lost nearly everything. Fuck unions.

I've learned some nuance later in life. Trade unions (pipe fitters, electricians, etc) have my support.  I can get guys from the Hall for a job and other than a few slackers, which are easy enough to reject, I can expect a certain amount of production. they also handle the HR part of the tradesmen and let me flex my workforce. Value add.

Public employee unions I am actively against. There's so much wrong with the incestuous way they conduct themselves that I'm not not going to go into it. But I support a constitutional ban on public employee unions. full stop.

Close shops? absolutely not. No way. Unions add NOTHING to this transaction. All the stereotypes about union shops aside, protecting slackers, etc... all true. But the bargain process made me sick the one time I was around it. They were willing to accept reduced pay and time off, to get "check off." (IE, the company withholds the dues from the worker's check.) They don't care about the employees, they care about thier payments. Later, they were brazen about trading grievances for thier cocksuck cronies. (they would not pursue a grievance for one individual, in exchange for the company not fighting a grievance submitted by one of the shop steward's favorites.)

Not to mention the cost! Employee take home was basically flat after the union came, there were some token improvements to thier healthcare options, but the cost of dealing with the union's bullshit exploded... a cost to the company, of which the workers got nothing.

Employers need a credible unionization threat to keep them honest. I get it. But union reform in this country, is long overdue. Right to work is a good step. I'd trade that for card-check. Preventing unions from participating in politics the way they do is another. I think Europe has some good examples of how this can be done well, for the benefit of everyone.

Yep.

As someone who had their car keyed up and down both sides, then nails put in the sidewalls of all four tires of our minivan (that had 2 visible car seats strapped inside) about 5 years ago....unions can go fuck themselves.

That's just me.  I can tell you about the private guards that my neighbor had to hire to protect his family so that he could work for insurance for his disabled and very ill boy.  Or about the reasons my M-I-L bought a gun. 

I hate unions.

[Hedge_87]

Wow. some of you have had some pretty shitty experiences with unions. I see a lot of talk on this board about avoiding stereotypes so just remember not all of us are like that.

My current position is union so I joined and so far its been about 70% good. But the place I work is a pretty friendly environment in the first place so we typically only do "union" stuff around negotiations time. Hopefully I get the position I am gunning for in the next couple years. It's non-union.

Pros

Great pay for my LCOL area
Safety is a heck of a lot tighter than it used to be. Which is a good thing but could also be listed as a con when we have some stuff we have to do that really doesn't make us any more safe.
The "Rules" for things like overtime, PTO, etc are pretty spelled out.
Benefits are great. Up until last contract we had 100% medical and now I think we pay 10%
In my line of work there are times when we work pretty extreme hours in dangerous conditions and we have some protection there to get us home and get some sleep.

Cons

Seniority. I can't stand seniority list. I lost out on a position because a guy was older than me. We both started at the same age but he is two years older than me so has been with the company 2 more years. I constantly get calls from the guy asking me how he is supposed to do his job.

Rigid work schedule. We cannot be sent home during regular working hours in exchange for overtime. Even if it is on a voluntary basis. One example is we have a crew about an hour away. One day I had a job in their area that I estimated would take us about 6 hours. I was leaving that evening on vacation so I really didn't want to run late on this project. I asked if I could start an hour early to meet the crew when they got to work and get started. In exchange I would quit an hour early still working my 8 hours and leaving the crew 2 hours at the end of the day to do something else. I was told it was a breach of contract. So they had 3 guys waiting on me to show up at the job site for an hour and then they only had an hour at the end of the day which is hardly enough time to do anything in my industry.

Majority rules. I was elected as a negotiator last contract and it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done because I had to go argue FOR some of the dumbest proposals I have ever seen. I am reading these off in front of they guys on the corporate side of the table and the whole time I can't help but think to my self no wonder they treat us like children because some of this stuff is what a 3  year old would ask for.

Set pay scale. No matter how well you preform or how many extra responsibilities you take on either voluntarily or not. Your pay is set at your classification. This irritates me to no end and ties in with the Majority rules point above. As technology continues to evolve my department has been evolving. I feel that the more workload and knowledge we have to posses should command more money. However my department only makes up about 15% of the bargaining unit so we will always get out voted.


And as stated before a lot of our pay is tied up in benefits that don't help somebody looking to FIRE