Author Topic: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor  (Read 4022 times)

zing12

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Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« on: October 03, 2014, 07:17:30 PM »
I've got a philosophical discussion for y'all today. I've been reading this book called "the Rational Optimist" by Matt Ridley. It's actually recommended on MMM's reading list. There are a few key concepts in there that, at least from a certain perspective, could be considered at odds with mustachianism. I've really been thinking about it and I thought I'd post to get some discussion going.

The main thing I struggle with is division of labor. You see, I've always been a big believer in markets and I do believe that they have made society better in many ways. But, MMM and ERE and FI and all that really focus on DIYing as much as you can. How do we reconcile these two ideas?

I've been attracted to FIRE mainly because I've always struggled with the idea of specialization for myself. I guess I like it for other people and I agree with the economic benefits but I never wanted to devote my life to "one thing," and then make a ton of money doing that one thing and never learn anything else, and pay people to fix my stuff and clean my house or whatever. I thought that would be a waste of a life and turn us all into robots. But it's pretty hard to disagree with the economic benefits of it. Same with just corporate jobs in general... most people on here hate them and we all decry them as soul-sucking and whatnot, but you can't deny the benefits of it.

The book can be a little bit pro-consumption at times but I think it's good to get this opposite perspective. The author also criticizes those who overromanticize the past, dreaming of "simpler lives" and so on... which I have been guilty of. I've even fantasized about homesteading and growing my own food and living off the grid and all that, and it's pretty obvious that this is kind of stupid if you understand basic economics. Would something like this really make somebody happier or is it just simple "grass is greener" thinking, because I am caught in the system? Probably the latter.

I can get caught up in cynicism... about my job, about the consumer economy, etc... which was getting me down so I am trying to read this book to snap out of that mindset. But how do we reconcile the idea that while we want out of that economy, and out of that job, that things are still "Pretty Fucking Great" as MMM said in his post about this book. It's like, on one hand, mustachianism talks about how great the world is today and all the technological advances and all the opportunities available today... but on the other hand, we all want to stop working in the system that made all that possible, because it's so soul sucking and evil and destroying the environment.

Perhaps MMM and other early retirees use the economy to their advantage, they aren't simply opting out of the economy as a whole... they are just cherry picking the good parts.

Anyone else read this book? I almost want to email MMM and ask him to expand his thoughts on this.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 07:29:16 PM by zing12 »

senecando

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2014, 08:11:35 PM »
I've thought about this a lot, too. I work at a software company, like working there, but would like to do more myself.

I think the place and time we live in allows for us to take the best parts of each. We are rich enough that we can be "inefficient" in providing our own food, to take an example.

Or, said differently, what is scarce in the modern world is no longer food and shelter, it's the energy reserved for shit-taking and tolerating boredom and working for abstract ends. Because growing food in my garden plot doesn't draw from that same reserve, it's cheaper (to me) than buying food. Paying someone to grow more of my food, indirectly, does draw on that reserve. I would rather spend the marginal hour at the garden than spend the marginal 10 minutes at work.

I think the problem sort of starts by thinking of time as an homogenous resource, when actual minutes in the day is almost never the scarce factor--it's energy or patience or focus that limit things.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 08:22:57 PM by senecando »

jsloan

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2014, 06:55:17 AM »
This is an interesting topic and I really enjoyed Jacob's take on specialization in his book: Early Retirement Extreme.  I think what we tend to talk about specialization without speaking of why we are more specialized.  We are more specialized because of the massive productivity gains due to automation and modern technology. 

For example, your inefficient garden is probably using modern seeds that are bred to produce higher yields.  You may also use modern tools to such as fertilizers, powered gardening tools, and other modern gardening techniques to maximize yields that people even 100 years ago would have never had access to.  These productivity gains allow you to still perform your given task on a part time basis, but still produce enough food to make it worthwhile.

I'm a DIYer as well around our house and I constantly leverage modern tools that I rent to double/triple my productivity which in the past would have required a team of men to accomplish the same work.  If I were forced to accomplish the same tasks with manual methods I would reach a point where the task just could not be accomplished on a part-time basis.  I would argue the only reason that the MMM lifestyle can exist today is because of these productivity increases.  Specialization is really just a by-product of a very efficient and diverse market. 

Today we have insanely cheap clothes, food and shelter which frees up our time to pursue other "inefficient" tasks that also still very efficient in historical terms.  We are standing on shoulders of giants in every respect.   

                     
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 06:57:47 AM by jsloan »

The Resilent Dame

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2014, 07:11:49 AM »

I think the problem sort of starts by thinking of time as an homogenous resource, when actual minutes in the day is almost never the scarce factor--it's energy or patience or focus that limit things.

Yes. I loved this book. It provides a great reality check over the mindset that it is best to do EVERYTHING by yourself

This even goes back to the housekeeper discussion over the last several days. Many sheepishly came out from the woodwork and admitted paying another person to do cleaning on a regular basis, myself included.

For a person working a 9-5, without family commitments, who is making $30,000 a year and is interested in early retirement, hiring somebody for this perhaps is not worth it. On the other hand, I own multiple businesses and have a family. I am NOT increasing my skill-set by doing monotonous toilet cleaning, floor scrubbing, proper vacuuming, etc. This is NOT like on the remodel of my office building where I decided to take down the walls myself, learn some basic electrical wiring, and really understand what I was doing. I gladly did this for some exercise and learning a new skillset. And it is not a monotonous duty.

You have to be honest about your opportunity costs. Will you watch TV or work on the new project for a new business? Does outsourcing increase your productivity? The one thing I've learned and sometimes still struggle with in my business with employees is making that step in hiring and delegating. I don't think Mr. Money Mustache, as great as he is, is an expert at this. It is a delicate process, decreases productivity in the short to even mid-term, but in the long run is necessary to grow a business.

Cyrano

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2014, 08:24:29 AM »
When you DIY, at least sometimes, you can come at the question, to what extent does this really need to be done? Could it be done less often? In a different way? from a more practical angle. The outsourced costs are more likely to sneak into the unquestioned "baseline" expenses if you spend less time engaged in them.

arebelspy

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 04:32:36 AM »
Hyper productivity isn't the end all, be all.

You have to ask yourself: what is your goal?

For some people, and some things, insourcing may make sense based on that goal.

For others, outsourcing and division of labor may make sense.

But it's nonsensical to  compare one against the other without knowing the point or purpose of the given task or person.
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RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2014, 05:25:48 AM »
I think it comes down to each person's needs/wants/capabilities.  Each activity needs to be weighed against its cost in money and its cost in other factors.  We can all see the money cost, but we can't weigh how negative any particular activity is for a particular person.

I will use myself as an example.  I am fine with cleaning my own house, doing my own laundry and cooking, and doing my own gardening (including cutting the lawn) on a one acre lot.  I always have been.

Last winter was the first winter I cleared the driveway myself instead of hiring a contractor.  I was newly retired, I didn't have to be out of the house early for work, so if I didn't get it cleared until late morning it wasn't a big deal.  It may have been a bad test case because we had a bit more snow than usual.  However, this was not fun, was a major stressor on the one day I had to be out of the house early, and was just generally a downer.  So this year I am looking for a contractor again.

flashpacker

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2014, 10:12:06 AM »
I am trying to find some middle ground here. For example, using my research skills to find deals on car parts online but then paying a mechanic to install them. Some types of outsourcing manual labor doesn't seem like good value to me e.g., I clean the pool, but other types of outsourcing get jobs done more quickly and efficiently and without the stress and dread of having unfinished DIY projects on my to do list.

kendallf

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Re: Mustachianism vs. Division of Labor
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2014, 10:46:56 AM »
When you DIY, at least sometimes, you can come at the question, to what extent does this really need to be done? Could it be done less often? In a different way? from a more practical angle. The outsourced costs are more likely to sneak into the unquestioned "baseline" expenses if you spend less time engaged in them.

^This.  I think the goal here, for myself at least, is to use the DIY mindset to increase my personal skillset and simultaneously evaluate the necessity of a given task. 

There's nothing wrong with efficiency and specialization when doing necessary work.  If you're an amazingly efficient worker feeding precious resources into the the roboticized maw of American Consumerism(tm) to build next week's disposable plastic widget, not so much.