Author Topic: Mustachianism Millionaires?  (Read 23950 times)

CBnCO

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Mustachianism Millionaires?
« on: April 06, 2018, 07:42:20 AM »
An observational post

Seems to me that the MMM site and even MMM himself have evolved from a group of 70+% saving, extreme frugalities who were willing to take an almost radically unconventional path to FIRE, to a group of high earning and high net worth individuals who still possess the spirit, but sit in a different socio-economic situation than the young MMM.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing and could be the natural progression of a group of people focused on applying the MMM philosophy over time. Just noticing that I used to come here to hear stories about shared living, re-using a pair of denim jeans six times over, and incredible feats of bicycling 50 miles RT in the snow to work and back; and now it's more about index investing, paying $15K in annual property taxes on an $700K house, and posts contemplating if the $3M they have saved is enough to FIRE comfortably.

Of course there are a broad group of people that take part in the MMM forums that represent every stage of the MMM journey and I continue to enjoy this forum and its intellectual and respectful collective. Obviously Mustachianism is relative and can apply to all; but, I feel there's been a chance over time in the tone and topical content of the forums here.

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?
 

BlueMR2

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 07:53:53 AM »
Generally agree.

- A lot of the hard core originals met their FIRE goals and have better things to do than talk about it now
- Others that were hard core have kept working after going past the required amounts and are becoming comfortable
- New people coming in generally seem to be more seeking LBYM status than a true mustache

Linea_Norway

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 07:54:32 AM »
There is certainly a difference to barebones FIREing and comfy FIREing. I think there are a lot more people willing to do the comfy variant then the barebones variant. Maybe if you grow a bit alder, you have learned that some things in life can suddenly fall apart and you would like to have a buffer. Also taking in accordance that you cannot/don't want to take any odd job to make ends meet if your FIRE plan doesn't work out.

On the other hand, the whole concept of FIRE is of course that we become millionaires. People need to become wealthy (in some cases being half a millionair is enough) to be able to FIRE. Those that are here longer, are therefore expected to be closer to becoming a millionaire then the new ones.

For me personally, I was already pretty wealthy before finding this website, mostly by having a frugal lifestyle, combined with a 2 good incomes. When I came here for the first time and discovered how to calculate the amount of money needed to FIRE, I found out we weren't so many years from FIRE. Therefore I am very motivated to learn how to be even more frugal than I was. Combined with learning about ways to invest my already substantial stash in the best way.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 07:57:01 AM by Linda_Norway »

FIRE Artist

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2018, 07:58:41 AM »
I think people here like to romanticise MMM’s pre FIRE situation. By the definitions used here on this forum to describe middle class and upper class, a DINK couple of computer engineers would be upper class. The fact that there are earners all a cross the economic spectrum on this forum doesn’t change the fact that MMM was always a high earner.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 08:02:51 AM »
It does seem that the "facepunches" have died down. A few years ago it was nothing but facepunches!

Where did the facepunches go?


also-

There were a few high-profile people here who hit "FIRE" status and left, that void was filled by the less "into it" crowd.

Hell, if you go to the MMM facebook group it's even worse. People there defend bad financial choices and try to not be "mean". Yuck

BTDretire

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 08:09:43 AM »
Stock market growth over the last 6 years has made many that were on their way, exceed their goals.
In my case, I didn't have a goal, we had been living frugally when I started reading MMM 3 years ago.
  About 1-1/2 years ago, I realized we were more than FI. So, I made an attempt at retiring, I have cut way back,
but my wife continues to keep our small business, she doesn't want to quit. That means we can live on our
income and our assets continue to grow.  (the last 9 weeks not as much) :-/
 If you live on the 4% rule, in the longer run, there's a good chance your assets will grow.
 I don't subscribe to the bare bones group, save a more reasonable amount and then if there is a
market turn, you can go bare bones until it corrects.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 08:12:01 AM by BTDretire »

Jrr85

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 08:14:33 AM »
An observational post

Seems to me that the MMM site and even MMM himself have evolved from a group of 70+% saving, extreme frugalities who were willing to take an almost radically unconventional path to FIRE, to a group of high earning and high net worth individuals who still possess the spirit, but sit in a different socio-economic situation than the young MMM.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing and could be the natural progression of a group of people focused on applying the MMM philosophy over time. Just noticing that I used to come here to hear stories about shared living, re-using a pair of denim jeans six times over, and incredible feats of bicycling 50 miles RT in the snow to work and back; and now it's more about index investing, paying $15K in annual property taxes on an $700K house, and posts contemplating if the $3M they have saved is enough to FIRE comfortably.

Of course there are a broad group of people that take part in the MMM forums that represent every stage of the MMM journey and I continue to enjoy this forum and its intellectual and respectful collective. Obviously Mustachianism is relative and can apply to all; but, I feel there's been a chance over time in the tone and topical content of the forums here.

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?

It's just a result of a typical population distribution.  MMM appeals to people on one end of the spectrum of a trait (group of traits) that describe interest in financial independence.  But even within that self selecting group, you have people on the extreme tail that are very frugal and looking to retire or at least be FI as soon as possible (and thus have "poverty" level spending regardless of their income), but as you move away from the extreme tail, you get more and more people that care less and less about quickly reaching FI compared to the extreme tail (although they care way more than the population in general).  As you get to the far left of the population interested in MMM (which is still probably the 85th or 90th or maybe even 95th percentile of the entire U.S. and Canadian population (ignoring all the other nationalities represented)) are the modal people on the site, who maybe aren't looking to retire by 45 (or at least aren't willing to make the saccrifices to do so) but do want to make sure they are financially free before their 60's.  That's basically where I and I'm sure the modal participant in this site are.  If I had avoided life style inflation in my 20's, I would be on my way to retiring sometime in my 40's.  But I didn't, and ratcheting back my lifestyle for me and my family is not really worth it when I have a well paying job I like, but I don't want to be "stuck" in 20 years if I have a different opinion.   

use2betrix

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 08:22:17 AM »
Honestly - does it even matter? I don’t look at this place like a major di** measuring contest, and that’s what makes it great. I think the main take away from this site, and this forum, is if it can help people achieve their goals and change their ways. So a family goes from spending $10k/mo to $5k/mo, that’s huge in my opinion. Some may see their $300 car payment and think they need face punches, but isn’t it still a great improvement worth of recognition?

Many people have many different scenarios for why they spend what they do. Many genuinely love their jobs and want to keep working. Many others have isolated reasons why they might not be able to bike to work. If there’s no houses close to ones work, should they ride 20 miles on the interstate in the snow? Or - should they take a job paying $50k less so they can work closer to home? Who knows.

This forum has been a major life changer for me. I’m not some hardcore mustachian. I work 60-80 hr weeks and I genuinely enjoy my weekly date night with my wife. Sure - it might cost us $200-$300/mo, but if I’m still saving $12k a month, maybe “I” find value in that.

The hardcore mustachianism is great, and I love reading about it and partaking where I can, but I think this forum is much better as a guide and support for everyone to just improve

jlcnuke

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 08:43:04 AM »
It does seem that the "facepunches" have died down. A few years ago it was nothing but facepunches!

Where did the facepunches go?


also-

There were a few high-profile people here who hit "FIRE" status and left, that void was filled by the less "into it" crowd.

Hell, if you go to the MMM facebook group it's even worse. People there defend bad financial choices and try to not be "mean". Yuck

I got this from an article about MMM.
Quote
The central tenet of Mustachianism is “financial freedom through badassity.”

There are two primary upsides of MMM philosophy, imo:
1. It can be good for the planet.
2. It can help some people to enjoy what they have "with less".

The primary downside to the MMM philosophy, imo, is that it can come across as so extreme that only a tiny sliver of the population will go "all-in" on it. Most won't contemplate it at all. A decent number (as a recent poll showed) will end up going somewhere in the middle; to the area I refer to as "financially prudent with little compromise on desires" - or just plain "live below your means".

The latter group is more represented here now because time has progressed and the forum has grown. As it grows, those who didn't feel they really 'fit" into the MMM philosophy have seen that others here also have similar views, and thus they've all become more vocal. As for the income/wealth variation, it's a lot easier to get an average person making $100k/year to feel happy with their life and spending while spending $50k/year than it is to get someone making $30k/year to be happy with their life and spending while spending $15k/year, despite both having the same "savings rate". Most people in the either category wouldn't be accepting of MMMs philosophy that life can be enjoyable without hardly paying anything to enjoy it, but the ones in the former category are likely to be able to still afford things they enjoy which cost money and thus more likely to stick with a high savings goal. Thus those "low income" people adopting some or all of the MMM philosophy are much less likely to stick with it than those in the high income category who adopt some of the MMM philosophy.

That's my take on the shifting dynamics of the posters here and elsewhere for this subject anyway.

mak1277

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2018, 09:23:14 AM »
This would be a pretty lonely place if it was limited to people pursuing FIRE on less than $1 million.

big_slacker

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2018, 09:29:00 AM »
I'm one of those high earners who will FIRE a millionaire and live a little bit more luxuriously than preached in MMMs articles. I would hope that MMM would be happy to see people get benefit from his strategy and example even if they don't rote follow it. Having been a mentee and mentor I think most people just love to see the people they coach flourish and do well on their own terms.

Zikoris

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2018, 09:49:21 AM »
It's definitely shifted more mainstream. I post a lot less because I have absolutely nothing to contribute to discussions on buying McMansions, cars, or consumer junk.

Interestingly, our local group is very different - much more normal in terms of jobs/salaries, a lot more environmentalism (which is the entire point of MMM), and more finding creative solutions to problems rather than throwing money at problems. I find myself more drawn to that crowd these days.

mm1970

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2018, 10:52:30 AM »
An observational post

Seems to me that the MMM site and even MMM himself have evolved from a group of 70+% saving, extreme frugalities who were willing to take an almost radically unconventional path to FIRE, to a group of high earning and high net worth individuals who still possess the spirit, but sit in a different socio-economic situation than the young MMM.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing and could be the natural progression of a group of people focused on applying the MMM philosophy over time. Just noticing that I used to come here to hear stories about shared living, re-using a pair of denim jeans six times over, and incredible feats of bicycling 50 miles RT in the snow to work and back; and now it's more about index investing, paying $15K in annual property taxes on an $700K house, and posts contemplating if the $3M they have saved is enough to FIRE comfortably.

Of course there are a broad group of people that take part in the MMM forums that represent every stage of the MMM journey and I continue to enjoy this forum and its intellectual and respectful collective. Obviously Mustachianism is relative and can apply to all; but, I feel there's been a chance over time in the tone and topical content of the forums here.

Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?
How much of this is because we are old?

I mean, I think I prob discovered MMM near the start of the blog (found him through Simple Living Network).
My husband and I are about the same age, approx 4 years older I think. 
We are both engineers, so our combined salaries were probably nearly equivalent (with some exceptions - my pay has always lagged in part to being female, and spouse was on the 7-year PhD plan)

But close enough.

The difference is ... many years have passed.  MMM "retired" (ahem, still brings in the big bucks).  We didn't.  Oh, we went on to have a second kid, but at least in the last decade our incomes have gone up.

That said - we do have big prop taxes on an expensive house.  Of course, I live in So Cal, so it's the same house I've been in for 14 years, and it's smaller than MMMs house.
It doesn't snow here.
I still wear clothing long past when I probably should, and I darn socks.
We still eat beans and rice and oatmeal.
I still contemplate the nuts and bolts our summer trip to visit family.  Renting a car between the families (8 hours) is only $99 + gas.  The train (which my spouse prefers) is $144 plus $120 hotel because the train leaves at 7:20 am and it's a 2 hour drive from home.  Is the extra $150 worth keeping the peace with the spouse?  After we saved $1000 by choosing really crappy flight times?

But yeah, prob don't need to do all that?

dude

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2018, 11:21:02 AM »
I've noticed from my first days on this site (coming up on 5 years ago) that it skewed toward the highly educated, and thus higher income potential. When high income individuals eschew material trappings and pursue high savings rates, especially in a 9 year bull market, bottom lines are likely to trend up very quickly, as mine has. For sure there are fewer "hardcore" folks here relative to the overall numbers, but I think this place has always skewed -- like MMM and his wife -- toward higher incomes. I don't recall too many people being "extreme frugal" around here so much as it was (and is) a bunch of folks trying to cut out obviously wasteful spending. That was my situation -- I had high savings rate and was well on my way to FIRE'ing at a lower than average age, but MMM really made me put the screws to stupid spending that was a drag on my path to FIRE.

wageslave23

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2018, 11:39:43 AM »
I came here after ERE quit blogging.  He was extreme frugality.  MMM has always been moderate, educated spending.

Gondolin

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2018, 12:30:58 PM »

hadabeardonce

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2018, 12:44:10 PM »
Agree? Disagree? Thoughts?
Posting the numbers is easy and eyecatching. Changing the habits is difficult, more personal and not immediately quantifiable in the same way.

e.g.:

"My income is $X and I have $Y invested in the market, how should I allocate my stash? When's my FIRE date?"

versus

"I'm trying to reduce my overall food budget, but I like meat and don't like cooking at home or dishes. What are my options?"

---

I went to a SF Bay Area MMM Meetup recently and it was very numbers/investment heavy with lots of high earners. I don't fault people for making lots of money, but techniques for reducing expenses, learning new skills and leading a more rewarding life are better topics to focus on for a broad audience.

Cassie

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2018, 12:59:41 PM »
I have been frugal my whole life and am in my 60's.  Now we are spending more then ever taking trips, eating out, going to events, etc.  We like more comfort in our travel then when we were young.  I have had 3 friends die between 59-67 so life can be short.  Now is our time to reap the rewards of our labor.

Papa bear

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2018, 01:12:44 PM »
There's a lot of room between the "extremes" of ERE followers that needed a new place to go after Jacob needed a job and the too conservative earlyretirement.org where the groups skews toward higher net worth and retirement age.  (I don't put bogleheads in the FIRE crowd for their main goals)

I'm glad to have a group that skews younger, more diy, but still doesn't hate having $$$ and actually using it for fun, fulfilling things and not frivolous trinket garbage.

There's still a cohort here that wants this to be ERE light though.  They get all NIMBY on the forums, hating on people who aren't just like them. 


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Hula Hoop

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2018, 01:33:03 PM »
I haven't been around MMM that long but I do sometimes feel excluded from the discussion because we don't have high incomes or a relatively lavish lifestyle. For example, there was a recent discussion here about hiring people to clean and it turned out that a huge proportion of MMMers hire cleaners.  We have 2 kids and 2 FT jobs but if we hired people to do stuff like this for us we wouldn't save anything as our incomes just aren't that big - also, this seems completely against the spirit of the blog.   

On our incomes, we're not going to be FIRE anytime soon but it's still nice to come here sometimes and be reminded that our frugalness is not freakish.

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2018, 01:39:33 PM »
Might be conflating the MMM blog with the forum.  I think the two are different, with the forum being a very broad range of people.

mak1277

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2018, 01:47:32 PM »
I haven't been around MMM that long but I do sometimes feel excluded from the discussion because we don't have high incomes or a relatively lavish lifestyle.

Take what you can use and discard the rest.  I don't own a bike, but I don't feel "excluded" from discussions about biking...I just ignore them.

Carrie

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2018, 01:52:19 PM »
Does anyone know of a good forum for frugality and saving?
We are comfortable mostly because we keep our spending low, not because of a super high income.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2018, 01:55:01 PM »
Since joining this board 3.5 years ago, the culture has definitely shifted.

There's a lot of good content and discussion in pockets, but the vibe as definitely changed.

More and more threads about families who are top 5% income earners, looking for a pat on the back for cutting their spending to double the US median household income.

I mainly stick around for the awesome people in the journals section, and to pay it forward when I can. This is still the best forum I frequent, and I am a member of many.

Carrie

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »
More and more threads about families who are top 5% income earners, looking for a pat on the back for cutting their spending to double the US median household income.

I've noticed that and it sucks. To brag about house cleaners,  dining out all the time, fancy leased vehicles, and then when an old timer mentions conspicuous consumption the defense is but I make a million dollars and only spend half of it. Or yolo.

I love the diy component and being proud of small money saving tips, even when you don't financially have to be frugal. That's exciting and interesting to me. Car leases justified don't belong here, nor do clown house mc mansions. (If you have them, whatev, but why are you here, bragging about them and getting defensive?)

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2018, 02:04:44 PM »
off topic but a leased car can make a lot of financial sense if its done under a business

inline five

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2018, 02:12:51 PM »
off topic but a leased car can make a lot of financial sense if its done under a business
The same writeoff is available to an owned car as well but the math is more complicated.

Pigeon

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2018, 02:13:13 PM »
In my observation, it's pretty typical for an internet forum with an extreme position to become more mainstream over time.  It's happened with all sorts of discussion boards I've been on.  If the board gets any traction, you inevitably have a broader audience with a distribution of viewpoints.

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2018, 02:15:15 PM »
off topic but a leased car can make a lot of financial sense if its done under a business
The same writeoff is available to an owned car as well but the math is more complicated.

indeed.  Although I crunched the numbers with my CPA and it was still favorable (slightly) to lease.

inline five

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2018, 02:17:09 PM »
The MMM mantra was always high income / low expense and stuff as much as quickly as possible into investments. I don't see it any different now.

I was doing MMM frugal living before it was cool, because I had to. When we finally started making decent money we just kept living the same.

After a decade and at age 35 we became millionaires, I'm not gonna lie, I've stepped up the spending game some. I'm over the "pretend I'm poor" game.

I'm not saying I will just waste money but I'm over feeling guilty for going to a Panera breakfast with my wife for $12 once every few weeks.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:19:14 PM by inline five »

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2018, 02:40:10 PM »
The MMM mantra was always high income / low expense and stuff as much as quickly as possible into investments. I don't see it any different now.

I was doing MMM frugal living before it was cool, because I had to. When we finally started making decent money we just kept living the same.

After a decade and at age 35 we became millionaires, I'm not gonna lie, I've stepped up the spending game some. I'm over the "pretend I'm poor" game.

I'm not saying I will just waste money but I'm over feeling guilty for going to a Panera breakfast with my wife for $12 once every few weeks.

To me this misses the point of the Mustachian philosophy.

I take the philosophy as recognizing what's important to you, and ordering your life around that.  Finances are just a part of it.  Living in a way that feels like deprivation misses the point of it imo.  It's not about being frugal just because, it's about not spending $ on things that don't add real value to your life.  If you're living in a way that feels like deprivation then its time to re-evaluate, especially if you are already FI.  Guilt should't be part of the equation at all.  It all comes down to what you value.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:42:51 PM by dustinst22 »

mak1277

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 02:44:01 PM »
I take the philosophy as recognizing what's important to you, and ordering your life around that. 

I really think this is stretching it...as soon as you say "what's important to you" you start down a slippery slope that leads to $800 blenders.  It's possible to justify nearly anything by saying "well, that...that is important to me, so it must be ok".  That's definitely not the fundamental of the philosophy.

Fishindude

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 02:45:17 PM »
I enjoy a lot of what I read here, but the idea of cutting my lifestyle to bare bones eating rice and beans and bicycling to work just so I could retire a little early (still on a rice & beans budget) does not appeal to me at all.   I like the high earner steak & lobster, big house & toys lifestyle and have accumulated enough to continue it in retirement.   It still requires financial discipline and living within your means which is the basis for a lot of discussion on this forum.

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2018, 02:45:21 PM »
I take the philosophy as recognizing what's important to you, and ordering your life around that. 

I really think this is stretching it...as soon as you say "what's important to you" you start down a slippery slope that leads to $800 blenders.  It's possible to justify nearly anything by saying "well, that...that is important to me, so it must be ok".  That's definitely not the fundamental of the philosophy.

Certainly I wasn't trying to make light of "recognizing whats important to you".  It's a deep philosophical introspection that needs to take place and certainly not a casual spur of the moment process ("Your Money Or Your Life" and the concept of Minimalism both touch on this introspection).  The good news is once this understanding happens, financial discipline becomes quite easy.  It's only difficult when one hasn't come to terms with what real value is to them.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 02:57:54 PM by dustinst22 »

mm1970

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2018, 05:53:11 PM »
I take the philosophy as recognizing what's important to you, and ordering your life around that. 

I really think this is stretching it...as soon as you say "what's important to you" you start down a slippery slope that leads to $800 blenders.  It's possible to justify nearly anything by saying "well, that...that is important to me, so it must be ok".  That's definitely not the fundamental of the philosophy.

Certainly I wasn't trying to make light of "recognizing whats important to you".  It's a deep philosophical introspection that needs to take place and certainly not a casual spur of the moment process ("Your Money Or Your Life" and the concept of Minimalism both touch on this introspection).  The good news is once this understanding happens, financial discipline becomes quite easy.  It's only difficult when one hasn't come to terms with what real value is to them.
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For example, there was a recent discussion here about hiring people to clean and it turned out that a huge proportion of MMMers hire cleaners.  We have 2 kids and 2 FT jobs but if we hired people to do stuff like this for us we wouldn't save anything as our incomes just aren't that big - also, this seems completely against the spirit of the blog.   

I must have missed that cleaning thread.  But my thoughts.

1.  Cleaning person sorrynotsorry.  But again, I'm high income.  In the vein of the frugalwoods threads, we weren't always high income.  But now we're pushing 50 and we're engineers and our pay has been going up for 26 years (me) and 16 years (spouse).

2.  When you've got "extra" then yes, introspection is important.  So, an $800 blender.  Is it going to last 40 years?  Because I'd argue, it might be okay if it lasts 40 years, or if you got it on sale, or whatever.  If blenders are your thing.

As I've spent a lot of time reading lately, and various things, I think about life and goals and philosophy.  As I'm living through this President, and thinking about life, and savings and poverty and wealth. 

Where I fall is this:
- While I could live like MMM (like we used to, before kids) and save up enough to retire, retire, then let someone else get the benefit of our jobs, I don't want to.  I like working.  But there's only so many hours in the day.  Given the choice of "what to do with my time"... spending time with my kids, my spouse, working, volunteering, sleeping, exercising ... all of these come before mopping the damn floors.  So I pay for someone else to mop them.

- One of the things that hit me, in reading various books, is the benefit of paid work.  There are quite literally millions of people who want work and can't find it, or have work but it doesn't pay well to live.  For some of them a JOB is all that keeps them sane.  In some (third world mostly) countries, if you are middle class you are EXPECTED to hire servants, to give other people jobs, and it's considered selfish not to.  This particular thought is very new to me (only the last couple of weeks), and it really has made me think.

Much like I bitch about the Waltons, and how they pay shit and have employees on welfare and rake in the bucks - because they can - am I much better for working for pay and hoarding?  I'm not really a hoarder, but it's a different point in the same scale, really.  Donating to charity, tithing, hiring people - when you can afford it - are acts of generosity in some respects.

I don't really see many things in black/ white - most things are shades of gray to me, so philosophical debates are interesting to me and they make me think.  I mean, several of my family members are "servants" (clean homes for a living) and it puts food on the table.

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2018, 06:33:00 PM »
You're completely missing the point I made

RedmondStash

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2018, 07:11:27 PM »
I haven't been posting long enough to notice a big shift in tone, but it sounds like some folks miss the older, more hardcore approach. Perhaps you can either create a thread or request an entire section for the hardcore folks, so you can find the like-minded folks you want.

I like the idea of a kinder, gentler forum, and I'm not a hardcore purist myself, but it would be great if those who prefer facepunches have a place to gather and share info too. I know it can be frustrating when a place you used to find value in shifts away from what's important to you.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2018, 07:23:59 PM »
Since joining this board 3.5 years ago, the culture has definitely shifted.

There's a lot of good content and discussion in pockets, but the vibe as definitely changed.

More and more threads about families who are top 5% income earners, looking for a pat on the back for cutting their spending to double the US median household income.

I mainly stick around for the awesome people in the journals section, and to pay it forward when I can. This is still the best forum I frequent, and I am a member of many.

Rude. We fall into the top 5% income earners. We certainly don’t need pats on the back. I won’t be vilified for being a high-earner, I’ve worked my butt off and made some good, bad and difficult choices to get here. Doesn’t matter though becaus I’m still a complete idiot about finances and was one of those looks rich, is poor type people. MMM changed my life. Do I wish I had discovered it when I had less salary? Yes and no. I definitely would have done things differently but then I’d have a different life. I would have made different choices and most likely, I would have lived a helluva lot more conservatively. Now I’m getting my shit together and the high-salary helps me to accelerate the plan, while doing some mustachian things. I’m not MMM, don’t need to live his life. As someone said, take what works, discard the rest. And your judgement ain’t getting in my way.

BlueHouse

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2018, 07:24:36 PM »
As people get older, they tend to have increases in income.  At the same time, we're trying to learn other ways to save money, optimize taxes, optimize investments, etc. 
It's just natural that from where I was 4 years ago, I've progressed. back then, I focused on spending less on groceries.  Now I've done okay there, I want to optimize my investments and reduce taxes.   

frugal_c

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2018, 07:45:55 PM »
I don`t have much to add that hasn`t already been said.  I think it`s just a numbers game.   If you are making 6 figure salary it is just a lot easier to be frugal and save, so more of this population do so.   I suspect that statistically there just seems to be a bit more financial literacy with higher earning individuals too.  Just my personal observation.  I think you combine this together and there are just more high earners who are doing the MMM light thing than hard-core mustachians.

I have to say I do miss the spirit of the forum a few years back.  It was much more motivating reading about people ditching their cars, getting room-mates, keeping their car but living in it, etc.  It really sets a high bar and is a strong motivator.  Not the same reading about someone living on $60k in a paid house and pushing the $1.5M stash up to $2M.  I guess there are only so many people willing to make those sacrifices.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 07:47:50 PM by frugal_c »

Simpleton

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2018, 08:20:51 PM »
I think the whole point of this blog is about maximizing happiness.

Happiness can come in many forms, but the main point is that it is not effective to pursue happiness through consumer spending and consumption, despite what every bit of our society tells us.

Everyone needs to reflect on what that means for them as it will be different for everyone.

Some people will find maximum happiness by minimizing spending below the poverty line. They will internalize some pride in this which will lead to happiness. They will see this spartan life as part of who they are - and that is fine.

Others will find happiness at higher levels on consumption and that is fine too.

I think the big point is that you need to realize what brings you true happiness and pursue that.

If you think that MMM has been prescribing a welfare, catfood-eating life style on you, and dictating that that is the way to live, you have missed the point.

kaizen soze

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2018, 08:51:16 PM »
This blog was born in the aftermath of the financial crisis and great recession. If the stock market continues its current tumble and/or the economy shifts back into a major recession, I think you'll see the tone revert. People have short memories and it's hard to maintain ultra frugal behavior when times are good and you start to forget what it's like to watch your savings plummet and your coworkers start gossipping about layoffs.

calimom

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2018, 09:03:09 PM »
It's definitely shifted more mainstream. I post a lot less because I have absolutely nothing to contribute to discussions on buying McMansions, cars, or consumer junk.

Interestingly, our local group is very different - much more normal in terms of jobs/salaries, a lot more environmentalism (which is the entire point of MMM), and more finding creative solutions to problems rather than throwing money at problems. I find myself more drawn to that crowd these days.

***sniff***

HBFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2018, 09:46:35 PM »


Rude. We fall into the top 5% income earners. We certainly don’t need pats on the back.

I do as well, you do deserve congrats for it, as it's no easy feat to get there.  Takes a lot of work, sacrifice, and the ability to take advantage of opportunities.  It's the best and quickest way to achieve FI imo.  So much attention is paid to expenditure, but income is a much bigger component to it.  Well done.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 09:50:59 PM by dustinst22 »

DreamFIRE

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2018, 09:56:41 PM »
I have been frugal my whole life and am in my 60's.  Now we are spending more then ever taking trips, eating out, going to events, etc.  We like more comfort in our travel then when we were young.  I have had 3 friends die between 59-67 so life can be short.  Now is our time to reap the rewards of our labor.
50's, but same thing here.  I've had a 70%+, sometimes 80%, savings rate for years, including to this day.  I was living frugally well before I ever heard of MMM - nothing has really changed for me lately.  It's pretty much natural and effortless for me.  By investing the savings over many years, this allowed me to join the millionaire club some time back, and when I FIRE (likely in 2019), I certainly want to cut loose by taking vacations and enjoying more entertainment than I've allowed myself in the past.  Indeed, it will be time to reap the rewards of my labor.  Hopefully, it won't be too painful spending the extra money.  LOL  I'm already planning out my long term drawdown / spending roadmap for FIRE.

doggyfizzle

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2018, 10:17:39 PM »

2.  When you've got "extra" then yes, introspection is important.  So, an $800 blender.  Is it going to last 40 years?  Because I'd argue, it might be okay if it lasts 40 years, or if you got it on sale, or whatever.  If blenders are your thing.

This hits home with me; I do own a $300 Vitamix purchased from Amazon, and it will last a lifetime.  But more importantly, and I think in-line with the mmm ethos of environmentalism, I know my blender was made in a US factory subject to US environmental rules and OSHA rules for workers, rather than some Chinese factory that’s pumping e-waste down the drains into the Yangtze manned by six year old kids.  Not that factories in the US don’t pollute, but at least there is actual oversight here with a free press to expose corporate malfeasance.

itchyfeet

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2018, 12:03:19 AM »
Notwithstanding all of the talk about improving society and protecting the environment, this forum is mostly focused on achieving financial independence and retiring early. If you are in the bottom 50% of earners it is exponentially more difficult to save 40%+ of your income compared to someone in the top 10% of income earners. So whilst there are far fewer top 10% earners in society it is logical that a much bigger percentage of that 10% would be in a position to contemplate and achieve an early retirement.

Those who can achieve early retirement whilst earning in the bottom 50% have to really strictly control spending in a way that only a slither of the population could accept, and would appear extreme to most eyes. If you are earning in the top 10% you can live a normal middle class (or better) life and still save plenty for an early retirement if you cut out wasteful spending, or even most of the wasteful spending.

Bateaux

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2018, 02:29:34 AM »
People who are just starting out or those with lower incomes and bank accounts should never be afraid to share their thoughts, ideas and questions.  Almost all of us were poor at some point.  Now many of us aren't.   I'm not going to apologize for successful saving and investing.   It was hard work and sacrifice for many of us.  Some are fine with less money and that's great if they are happy.  I want a bigger cushion of safety.  I want nice things.  We're currently in the process of buying a retirement home.  Let me tell you.  With 800+ credit,  200k annual income and 2 million in debt free assets it's pretty dang eazy to get what you want.   When we were young and broke buying our first house the bankers treated us like children.   Now they kiss your ass.  Get here if you want or jump off when you feel comfortable.   It's your own life. 

Hula Hoop

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2018, 08:37:40 AM »
I have a pretty OK income compared to my friends and my husband but nothing compared to most on this forum.  I guess this is partly because I live in a country where incomes tend to be low.  What I like about mustachianism is that it's anti-materialistic and counter-culture.  It's nice to be somewhere where I don't feel like a freak since we don't have a car or a cleaning service or a country house or whatever other materialistic thing which people are told is "essential" these days.  It kind of defeats the purpose to me when people even here are talking about lavish (by MMM standards) lifestyles.  Whatever happened to stoicism, doing things yourself, not using the clown car but biking/taking public transport instead, voluntary discomfort and all the rest of it?

BTW - re the blender - I bought a really great blender second hand for 50 euro from a departing fellow immigrant.  It does everything that a blender is supposed to do and should last a while if not my entire lifetime. 

mm1970

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Re: Mustachianism Millionaires?
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2018, 08:54:38 AM »
You're completely missing the point I made
You mean me?  I was agreeing with your point mostly and arguing with the $800 blender point.