Author Topic: Mustachian vs. Localist  (Read 6568 times)

freeazabird

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Mustachian vs. Localist
« on: May 12, 2016, 02:25:01 PM »
As a Mustachian ideally I'd like to save as much money as possible. One way to save money is to buy low cost imported items. This however has detrimental effects on the local economy. If you think it's important to circulate money within your local economy, but are also Mustachian how do you negotiate these two positions in your life?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 02:29:46 PM »
I believe in efficiency. Someone in China has just as much right to earn a living as someone in my neighborhood does. I'll happily pay whoever gives me the best deal for what I need.

Zikoris

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 02:49:05 PM »
We just stopped buying most things. Screw everyone equally!

Or you could buy imported items at small local stores for the best of both worlds. We buy everything kitchen-related from a little family-run restaurant supply store in Chinatown. Household things are bought at the local dollar store or Army and Navy (local family-run for generations). We do buy clothes and shoes from big box stores, but not a lot.

Yaeger

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 03:04:46 PM »
Don't feel bad about contributing to the decline - buy the best product.

Chris22

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 03:32:59 PM »
I buy the best product I can, for the best price/service combination I can.

One example that springs to mind recently was that I went to Ace hardware near my house to buy some outlets.  They only had a few, and the price was outrageous ($3-4 per outlet).  I didn't buy outlets, but I did buy something else (forget what).  On the back of the receipt they stamped "Your decision to shop local means double the money circulating in our local economy" or something. 

I later went to Home Depot where I bought a 10-pack of outlets for $8-9.  Basically, the takeaway was that double the money is circulating because they charge 4 times as much!

Cyaphas

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 03:52:10 PM »
If you buy something used the money you've spent is more likely to stay local. I spend an incredible amount of tie on craigslist. I don't ever buy anything but it gives me my shopping fix. The free section is always fun.

Kalergie

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 03:56:41 PM »
Buy from Craigslist. That's local and cheap!

Kaybee

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2016, 05:11:45 AM »
I believe in efficiency. Someone in China has just as much right to earn a living as someone in my neighborhood does. I'll happily pay whoever gives me the best deal for what I need.

The problem is that, for a lot overseas workers, they're NOT paid enough to "earn a living" and when they attempt to organize and get a living wage, they're punished by the manufacturers moving production elsewhere or the government violently cracking down on their protests.  "The True Cost" is a doc that focuses on this problem in the fashion industry.

I buy most things secondhand because its easier on my budget and it prolongs the use of the resources that were used to make those items.  For new items, I try to ensure ethical production standards have been followed so it usually, but not always, excludes things made outside of North America and Europe.  I baby my possessions now because shopping has become such a pain in the butt!!

mak1277

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 06:29:22 AM »
I baby my possessions now because shopping has become such a pain in the butt!!

I'd argue that shopping now is the easiest it has been in human history.  I think I could buy almost anything I could ever imagine wanting within about two minutes without even putting clothes on if I didn't want to.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 06:43:36 AM »
I buy the best product I can, for the best price/service combination I can.

One example that springs to mind recently was that I went to Ace hardware near my house to buy some outlets.  They only had a few, and the price was outrageous ($3-4 per outlet).  I didn't buy outlets, but I did buy something else (forget what).  On the back of the receipt they stamped "Your decision to shop local means double the money circulating in our local economy" or something. 

I later went to Home Depot where I bought a 10-pack of outlets for $8-9.  Basically, the takeaway was that double the money is circulating because they charge 4 times as much!

Home Depot is just as local as Ace Hardware. 
They just don't want you shopping on the internet.

Warlord1986

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 06:53:21 AM »
I shop local. I like my neighbors and want them to succeed. Many of them are mustachian, or at least they live below their means. I despise Walmart and most fast food joints.

You spend your money on what's important to you. I like having independent shops that treat their customers and employees well.

James

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 07:17:05 AM »
The problem is that, for a lot overseas workers, they're NOT paid enough to "earn a living" and when they attempt to organize and get a living wage, they're punished by the manufacturers moving production elsewhere or the government violently cracking down on their protests.  "The True Cost" is a doc that focuses on this problem in the fashion industry.

I buy most things secondhand because its easier on my budget and it prolongs the use of the resources that were used to make those items.  For new items, I try to ensure ethical production standards have been followed so it usually, but not always, excludes things made outside of North America and Europe.  I baby my possessions now because shopping has become such a pain in the butt!!

So workers in Europe and North America get your money because they are paid well. But "overseas workers" don't get your money because they don't get paid enough. Does that really make sense?

If the poor overseas workers had better options don't you think they would be taking those better options? I'm all for fair wages, but for many in the world poor wages are better than no wages. I'm all for helping them by fighting for higher wages, better conditions, etc, but I'm not in favor of just removing those jobs and paying more for Americans and Europeans to do the work.

Drifterrider

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 07:17:42 AM »
Where I live there are a lot of "Mom and Pop" businesses that own a beach house and a boat.  I don't own a beach house and/or a boat.

Some people believe they should only patronize local.  If it works for them, great.  It doesn't work for me so I don't do it.  I also won't pay four times the price for a kitchen counter top because it is made from "recycled" anything.  Give me the original for 1/4th the price.

I am always looking for "best bargain".  That is wholly subjective, but it works for me.

Mom and Pop have never paid any of my bills.

Fundamentally, you need to make the choices you can live with  One can't support both a $15 per hour minimum wage AND expect to get a $6 shirt from WalMart. 


big_slacker

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 09:06:03 AM »
It's possible to buy local the things that make sense to buy local and cheaper things not made local when that makes sense. I can buy my fruit and veggies from the local CSA, I don't think anyone makes wireless headphones near me.

Be mindful, not dogmatic. :D

Kaybee

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 09:40:49 AM »
So workers in Europe and North America get your money because they are paid well. But "overseas workers" don't get your money because they don't get paid enough. Does that really make sense?

If the poor overseas workers had better options don't you think they would be taking those better options? I'm all for fair wages, but for many in the world poor wages are better than no wages. I'm all for helping them by fighting for higher wages, better conditions, etc, but I'm not in favor of just removing those jobs and paying more for Americans and Europeans to do the work.

Maybe I should specify that I choose to support smaller companies?  My problem is that most companies that make products overseas do so *only* because they don't have to pay decent wages or provide reasonable working conditions.  Even when they say "their" factories adhere to certain standards, they permit "their" factories to sub-contract with other providers who don't.  It doesn't matter if those companies raise their prices...any increase in profit is going to the shareholders, NOT the workers at the bottom rung of the ladder.  So yes, whenever I can, I choose to buy my consumer goods (when purchased new) from smaller companies with more transparent manufacturing procedues because their employees tend to be paid fairly and work in areas where if there WERE dangerous working conditions, they would be able to report those conditions without fear of their family being terrorized in the night by thugs.  I don't want my money going to larger corporations that make profits for their western shareholders by trampling on the poor in third world countries and using the same labour practices that are found in "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.  I can't *always* avoid those corporations but I do want I can to support better choices.


Yaeger

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2016, 10:24:44 AM »
Maybe I should specify that I choose to support smaller companies?  My problem is that most companies that make products overseas do so *only* because they don't have to pay decent wages or provide reasonable working conditions.  Even when they say "their" factories adhere to certain standards, they permit "their" factories to sub-contract with other providers who don't.  It doesn't matter if those companies raise their prices...any increase in profit is going to the shareholders, NOT the workers at the bottom rung of the ladder.  So yes, whenever I can, I choose to buy my consumer goods (when purchased new) from smaller companies with more transparent manufacturing procedues because their employees tend to be paid fairly and work in areas where if there WERE dangerous working conditions, they would be able to report those conditions without fear of their family being terrorized in the night by thugs.  I don't want my money going to larger corporations that make profits for their western shareholders by trampling on the poor in third world countries and using the same labour practices that are found in "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair.  I can't *always* avoid those corporations but I do want I can to support better choices.

I feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how labor works (hah, economic pun!). Profit does not go to the workers, ever. Workers labor for a negotiated fixed price to avoid the same risk and reward that the owners and shareholders are exposed to.

Think about labor as a resource, demand determines how much of that resource you need, and the value is dependent upon the supply that is available. If demand spikes, and you need more workers from a smaller pool, you RAISE wages/benefits to attract these workers. You typically see this as being represented by higher paid labor, like doctors or lawyers. You saw this through the first half of the 20th century, when factories had a hard time filling job openings.

Some idea of "Living Wages" doesn't determine wages, that's fantasy-land, filled with happy fairies and unicorns, thinking. Supply/Demand determines wages, not employers. Specifically, society determines where the value is and what someone's labor is worth.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2016, 10:35:34 AM »
We just stopped buying most things. Screw everyone equally!

Or you could buy imported items at small local stores for the best of both worlds. We buy everything kitchen-related from a little family-run restaurant supply store in Chinatown. Household things are bought at the local dollar store or Army and Navy (local family-run for generations). We do buy clothes and shoes from big box stores, but not a lot.
LOL, +1 to stop buying most things and screw everyone equally,

Also +1 to craigslist

Kaybee

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2016, 10:37:28 AM »
I feel like you have a fundamental misunderstanding about how labor works (hah, economic pun!). Profit does not go to the workers, ever. Workers labor for a negotiated fixed price to avoid the same risk and reward that the owners and shareholders are exposed to.

Think about labor as a resource, demand determines how much of that resource you need, and the value is dependent upon the supply that is available. If demand spikes, and you need more workers from a smaller pool, you RAISE wages/benefits to attract these workers. You typically see this as being represented by higher paid labor, like doctors or lawyers. You saw this through the first half of the 20th century, when factories had a hard time filling job openings.

Some idea of "Living Wages" doesn't determine wages, that's fantasy-land, filled with happy fairies and unicorns, thinking. Supply/Demand determines wages, not employers. Specifically, society determines where the value is and what someone's labor is worth.

I'm going on the knowledge that I have from studying politics, international development and business for my university major as well as the knowledge and personal experience of the friends I have who work in international development, at MNCs, and with NGOs working in some of those countries (Bangladesh, Cambodia, India, etc).  I'm sure our information is coming from vastly different sources and we have come to vastly different conclusions because of it.  I respect that you have your own opinion but clearly, we're not going to come to a common understanding here and that's fine.  I'll make the choices I feel comfortable with and you can make the choices you prefer. :)

dougules

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2016, 10:40:50 AM »
I tend to use the slow boat rule on this one.  Container ships are extremely efficient.  If something is shelf-stable enough to be shipped by slow boat or train, then I don't worry about the distance it had to travel to get to me.  If it's something too perishable or fragile to ship by slow boat, I try to get local where possible.  So jeans and a phone can come from wherever, but produce I'm going to try my best to source locally. 

For slow boat items, I agree that the guy in India needs a job as much the guy across town, probably more.  But I also agree that it's better to try and buy from countries that treat their workers and the environment well. 

Of course life isn't perfect, and you'll always have to compromise.  I buy mangoes and papayas from the little Mexican grocery near my house in the winter.  They had to be shipped 2000 miles, and the farmer probably had to pay protection money to the local crime syndicate.  It's still closer than buying Chilean grapes, though, and I switch over to local strawberries as soon as they come in season. And you will have to go way out of your way if you want to find shoes that aren't made by workers in near slavery conditions in a smoke-belching Chinese factory.   

BDWW

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2016, 10:53:19 AM »
I tend to buy based on quality. Often that means locally, say furniture. Other items are usually American, European or Japanese. The price differential shrinks when quality is the focus, so I often end up buying local.

Obviously, not all products fit in this mindset(such as the outlets above), so I buy them where ever.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2016, 12:46:31 PM »
I believe in efficiency. Someone in China has just as much right to earn a living as someone in my neighborhood does. I'll happily pay whoever gives me the best deal for what I need.

The problem is that, for a lot overseas workers, they're NOT paid enough to "earn a living" and when they attempt to organize and get a living wage, they're punished by the manufacturers moving production elsewhere or the government violently cracking down on their protests.  "The True Cost" is a doc that focuses on this problem in the fashion industry.

I agree that the way workers are treated in other countries can be problematic. However if I and others refuse to buy the stuff made in certain countries because of their poor working conditions, all that happens is that more of the people working under crappy conditions overseas will be out of a job entirely. Is it better to have no job than a terrible job? I'm not convinced.

Blissful Biker

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2016, 01:41:47 PM »
I live in a beautiful, remote mountain town and know that unless we support the local shops they will disappear along with the culture and flavour they bring to the town.  So we do try to support local, but not at any price.  For anything substantial (like bikes or skis), if the local price is more than about 15% higher than online, we order online.  Being local doesn't give a store a blank check.

Cyaphas

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2016, 08:27:18 PM »
I live in a beautiful, remote mountain town and know that unless we support the local shops they will disappear along with the culture and flavour they bring to the town.  So we do try to support local, but not at any price.  For anything substantial (like bikes or skis), if the local price is more than about 15% higher than online, we order online.  Being local doesn't give a store a blank check.

I've talked to store owners about this very subject and many will offer to match amazon. I usually negotiate amazon +10%. I know they've got to pay bills too.

tobitonic

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2016, 09:38:03 PM »
We do a mix of local and online, with the goal of supporting the smallest, most humanistic, and most sustainable forces. One really basic example of this is buying used over new wherever feasible (cars, books, computers, etc).

yuka

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2016, 11:08:10 PM »
I believe in efficiency. Someone in China has just as much right to earn a living as someone in my neighborhood does. I'll happily pay whoever gives me the best deal for what I need.

The problem is that, for a lot overseas workers, they're NOT paid enough to "earn a living" and when they attempt to organize and get a living wage, they're punished by the manufacturers moving production elsewhere or the government violently cracking down on their protests.  "The True Cost" is a doc that focuses on this problem in the fashion industry.

I agree that the way workers are treated in other countries can be problematic. However if I and others refuse to buy the stuff made in certain countries because of their poor working conditions, all that happens is that more of the people working under crappy conditions overseas will be out of a job entirely. Is it better to have no job than a terrible job? I'm not convinced.

First of all, the overseas are absolutely 'earning a living', and a better one than what they had before. When you make maybe $1000/yr, there's a lot of potential to be moving up, even in those outsourced manufacturing jobs.

It's unlikely that they'll have no job instead of the terrible job; it's that they'll have a worse job working on the family farm/business and making far less money. I've spent a few weeks in villages in rural Guangdong province (the one where most of China's manufacturing boom has been) talking to people who lived there. You mostly see children and elderly grandparents because everyone of young/working age has traveled to the cities a few hours away (despite it being somewhat illegal for them because of their rural hukou) to get all the 'good' manufacturing jobs. Those parents go to those high-paying jobs while their parents go out in the fields all day to work the (in this case) tea fields. The average income is maybe 10k RMB (~$1500 USD). They all have places to live, if only because they're all pretty much family. Seriously, the whole village has the same family name because women marry out of the village and men find mates outside the village to bring in. If the parents can bring in more money, then they'll be able to afford a motorcycle for the grandparents to drive the children to school 45 minutes away, so maybe they'll be the first ones in their families to be middle school graduates (average was to finish through grade 4 or 5 in these villages). The factory cities may be dirty (I've spent time there too, and they're pretty crappy), but at least people throw trash in cans. In the village, you dump your trash in the stream, and then hope that the rains wash it away before the rats become common enough that they're getting into all the food you store on the dirty floor of your house's kitchen/sole_common_room. It makes perfect sense, because the trash washes away, and then it's not your problem any more, and so who cares? Sure, they're willing to dispose of it properly, if the government will pick it up. And the government tried to, but they put a dumpster out at the main (and only paved) road, and no one has the time to be walking 15 minutes out to the edge of town every time their trash is full. So they didn't use it, and now they couldn't even if they wanted to because the government has inexplicably put a padlock on the dumpster.

But those people aren't too bummed out, because they remember when things were worse. They remember when 30 years ago Mao said that every farm town should be able to feed itself, so they had to struggle to get by planting rice in a small valley, wasting a lot of the land that they should have been using to plant tea (a much more valuable crop), and they didn't get much else to eat. Because the Iron Rice Bowl didn't really apply to them, out in the boonies. What good is a farmer who can't even feed himself? But now things are better; they even get meat! Every morning the richest guy in town drives his bright yellow subcompact hatchback out to the town 45 minutes away, and buys a portion of a pig. He puts it on a trash bag in the back of his car and drives it into town, where he sets it on a worn wooden table that sits permanently outside in the sun. There, in the early morning light, he butchers the pig in the town square. And he does good business because anything is appreciated flavor when breakfast is rice porridge with MSG cubes (NOT CROUTONS, I repeat NOT CROUTONS) every single morning. Of course, there's also dog sometimes, which isn't surprising when you consider the number of stray dogs in this town of 400. Killing the dogs is probably a good idea anyway; otherwise they'll bother the cats while the cats are trying to catch the rats. The only good the dogs do is giving the kids something to chase as an activity.

But the kids also have a nice pool to swim in. If they walk up into the hills, there's a place before the trash-dumping section of the stream where the water pools into a nice area. They used to also have basketball in the paved central square, but then people started parking in it and leaving piles of gravel there. Everyone knows it would be nice to have a place for the kids to play, but it's just too bad; after all, it's a public place, so people can do whatever you want, and you can't tell them not to. So now the kids chase each other around, over, and under the small flat-bed truck and gravel pile. Some nights (because you don't play outside in the sun when it's 95-100 degrees and oppressively humid) the truck would park just so, and they could play with the basketball hoop.

Anyway, I don't even remember what I'm talking about, but the point is that the job being called not a "living wage" is a dream ticket out of a really crappy situation to someone, even if it's not to you. That's why people take those jobs. And yes, all of this comes from my seeing those towns and talking to the people who lived in them.

Monkey Uncle

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2016, 04:51:18 AM »
I buy the cheap Wal-Mart shirt that's made by the guy in Bangladesh who's struggling to feed his family on $1 a week.  Then I take the money I saved and invest it in Mega Textile Corp so it can generate a ton of dividend and capital gain income from all the cash flow that they're not paying the guy in Bangladesh, or the guy in the U.S. who lost his living wage manufacturing job when they outsourced their shirt manufacturing.  I pay taxes on the dividends and capital gains so the unemployed guy in the U.S. can use his food stamps to buy cheap processed food from Wal-Mart.  I give most of what's left over to an international charity that helps to feed the Bangladeshi guy's family and pays for their medical care when they get cancer from all the pollutants that Mega Corp spews into the air and water.  I use the little bit that is left to fund my early retirement.

Or I could just vote for politicians who support fair trade policies...

Kitsune

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2016, 05:35:26 AM »
We do a mix of local and online, with the goal of supporting the smallest, most humanistic, and most sustainable forces. One really basic example of this is buying used over new wherever feasible (cars, books, computers, etc).

This. And learning repair skills.

Buying used also keeps money in the local economy... And keeps more of it in your pocket. ;)

big_slacker

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2016, 07:22:12 AM »
I live in a beautiful, remote mountain town and know that unless we support the local shops they will disappear along with the culture and flavour they bring to the town.  So we do try to support local, but not at any price.  For anything substantial (like bikes or skis), if the local price is more than about 15% higher than online, we order online.  Being local doesn't give a store a blank check.

Yeah, I lived in Tahoe for many years and you want to support the locals, especially with a lot of mountain towns turning into vacant vacation rental 'hotels' for rich out of towners. So I'd buy tubes or a camelbak bladder from the local bike store. But when they're selling a $2000 bike (online) for $3000 in their store then what do they expect?

projekt

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2016, 09:00:01 AM »
Home Depot is just as local as Ace Hardware. 
They just don't want you shopping on the internet.

Not exactly. Home Depot stores are corporate-owned and all the profits leave the locality and end up in Atlanta. (Of course, for some of us, that's local.)

Ace Hardware stores are independently owned and operated, but they belong to a co-operative that does the marketing of the products. That's why you will see many Ace stores with differing inventory. An Ace store could switch to another co-operative or go completely independent if they wanted to.

TrueValue Hardware and IGA grocery stores are also independents who belong to a co-operative.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachian vs. Localist
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2016, 11:42:30 AM »
Home Hardware is like that here - I can get to 3 easily, and they are all different.  And they can order anything in the Home Hardware inventory for me and have it in a few days for me to pick up.  Their quality is better than Lowe's for things that I have comparison shopped, and they are 100 km closer!


Ace Hardware stores are independently owned and operated, but they belong to a co-operative that does the marketing of the products. That's why you will see many Ace stores with differing inventory. An Ace store could switch to another co-operative or go completely independent if they wanted to.

TrueValue Hardware and IGA grocery stores are also independents who belong to a co-operative.