Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)

[Dollar Slice]

My MPP of the day: 

I had opened Chase savings & checking accounts to get cash back and points/miles several months ago.  I had kept the accounts long enough and had received my bonus and points.  I closed both accounts. 

Went home and immediately had an email from Chase that one account was overdrawn by 34 cents.  I called Chase & they said I had to go in and pay the 34 cents.  I went the next day.  The teller told me it was actually 8 cents I owed.  I gave her 8 cents and she gave me a receipt.  The receipt says the account now has 16 cents in it.

Still worth the cash & points.  Just wondering if I'm the first person ever to close a Chase account.

I closed a Chase account years ago because I had left the US (had opened one as a graduate student). I got a letter from them saying that the account was overdrawn by $0.00 and I need to go to a branch to pay it off before they could close the account. It was weird. I think I ignored the letter.

It wasn't Chase in my case, but I once closed a bank account and transferred an IRA simultaneously out of the same bank (closing all my accounts at once). They accidentally(?) left a couple of bucks in the checking account, apparently didn't actually close it, and didn't shut off the monthly auto-invest into the (also apparently not closed) IRA. So a couple of weeks later I got a notice that I was overdrawn some random-looking amount (IRA contribution minus the random couple of dollars and miscellaneous cents they'd left in there) because of an auto-transfer between two accounts that should have been closed. I was REALLY not happy to have to spend an hour at a bank branch getting that sorted out. They had the gall to tell me I should have told them to stop the auto-invest between my closed (yet mysteriously still active?) accounts. Because clearly this debacle of accounting was MY fault...

[shelivesthedream]

I still have about 27p in my ye olde children's savings account. Every year or so I get about half a farthing in interest and think I should really actually figure out how to close the account, but I think they won't let me withdraw less than £1 or something and so it ticks on...

[nouveauRiche]

My MPP of the day: 

I had opened Chase savings & checking accounts to get cash back and points/miles several months ago.  I had kept the accounts long enough and had received my bonus and points.  I closed both accounts. 

Went home and immediately had an email from Chase that one account was overdrawn by 34 cents.  I called Chase & they said I had to go in and pay the 34 cents.  I went the next day.  The teller told me it was actually 8 cents I owed.  I gave her 8 cents and she gave me a receipt.  The receipt says the account now has 16 cents in it.

Still worth the cash & points.  Just wondering if I'm the first person ever to close a Chase account.

I closed a Chase account years ago because I had left the US (had opened one as a graduate student). I got a letter from them saying that the account was overdrawn by $0.00 and I need to go to a branch to pay it off before they could close the account. It was weird. I think I ignored the letter.

It wasn't Chase in my case, but I once closed a bank account and transferred an IRA simultaneously out of the same bank (closing all my accounts at once). They accidentally(?) left a couple of bucks in the checking account, apparently didn't actually close it, and didn't shut off the monthly auto-invest into the (also apparently not closed) IRA. So a couple of weeks later I got a notice that I was overdrawn some random-looking amount (IRA contribution minus the random couple of dollars and miscellaneous cents they'd left in there) because of an auto-transfer between two accounts that should have been closed. I was REALLY not happy to have to spend an hour at a bank branch getting that sorted out. They had the gall to tell me I should have told them to stop the auto-invest between my closed (yet mysteriously still active?) accounts. Because clearly this debacle of accounting was MY fault...

Yes, why didn't you foresee their mistake and prevent it??  Ha.

[never give up]

I'm going to spend more on public transport next month than the rest of the year combined because I'm going to a MMM meet-up.

One of the loveliest Mustachian People Problems to have.

[Sugaree]

Today's MPP is that I had intended to just buy my kid's Halloween costume this year.  But I've discovered that the costume he wanted, while super popular two years ago, is not available in his size for an amount that I'm willing to pay.  So, now I have to brave Walmart this afternoon to try to find something that will work.  Or he's going to have to pick something else, which will be his MPP for the day.

[Linea_Norway]

I still have about 27p in my ye olde children's savings account. Every year or so I get about half a farthing in interest and think I should really actually figure out how to close the account, but I think they won't let me withdraw less than £1 or something and so it ticks on...

That's simple. Just notify the bank that you want them to close the account and give them another bankaccountnumber to put the remaining money on.

[SwordGuy]

I still have about 27p in my ye olde children's savings account. Every year or so I get about half a farthing in interest and think I should really actually figure out how to close the account, but I think they won't let me withdraw less than £1 or something and so it ticks on...

That's simple. Just notify the bank that you want them to close the account and give them another bankaccountnumber to put the remaining money on.

If they won't cooperate when you're at the teller's window to close out the account, just say, in an astonished voice loud enough for EVERYONE in the bank to hear, "What?   You can't give me the money in my account?   Why?  Doesn't the bank have ENOUGH MONEY???   Is that the problem?  The bank doesn't HAVE ENOUGH MONEY to let me have my money???"

I guarantee that you will have successfully escalated the situation to the highest ranking person present at the bank.

Anything they say to you that you don't like, just repeat, loud enough to be heard by others, "But it's MY money.   YOU agree it's MY money.  So why won't you give me my money?   Doesn't the bank have enough money to cover it?"


I pulled something similar one time when I was working in fast food during high school.   The paychecks were drawn on a bank right next door to where I worked.   I didn't have an account at the bank because they were the slowest (and most robbed) bank in the city.  I used to say the robbers were just people who got tired of waiting in line.  But they were handy for if I wanted to cash my check during a work break, so I went over to do so.   I spent well over 5 minutes standing in line with 4 tellers available, none of whom were meeting with other customers.   By the time they got around to seeing to my needs there was a line behind me.   The teller refused to cash the check because I didn't have an account at that bank.

"What??   You can't cash this check drawn on your bank?    Isn't there ENOUGH MONEY here?   Is that the problem?   You don't have the money to cover this check?"

Gosh, golly, but a manager materialized out of nowhere and rushed that transaction through.   Never saw anyone at that bank move so quickly, before or after.)

[rantk81]

I wouldn't even consider causing a scene like that for a few cents.  IMO that's just ridiculous.

[shelivesthedream]

I still have about 27p in my ye olde children's savings account. Every year or so I get about half a farthing in interest and think I should really actually figure out how to close the account, but I think they won't let me withdraw less than £1 or something and so it ticks on...

That's simple. Just notify the bank that you want them to close the account and give them another bankaccountnumber to put the remaining money on.

I genuinely can't remember why this can't be done. Some weird legacy rules from it being a kind of children's savings account they no longer offer, from back in the day when transfers were hard? Or some kind of admin fee where I'd have to pay them £1 to take out 27p? I'm just sad they stopped sending me birthday cards when I turned 18. One factor in leaving it open is if I ever want a mortgage they do excellent rates for existing customers. I'm not going to be horrible to the tellers over 27p. The only reasons I would be so desperate to close the account are administrative tidiness and the minuscule risk of identity theft.

[kanga1622]

My MPP of the day: 

I had opened Chase savings & checking accounts to get cash back and points/miles several months ago.  I had kept the accounts long enough and had received my bonus and points.  I closed both accounts. 

Went home and immediately had an email from Chase that one account was overdrawn by 34 cents.  I called Chase & they said I had to go in and pay the 34 cents.  I went the next day.  The teller told me it was actually 8 cents I owed.  I gave her 8 cents and she gave me a receipt.  The receipt says the account now has 16 cents in it.

Still worth the cash & points.  Just wondering if I'm the first person ever to close a Chase account.

I closed a Chase account years ago because I had left the US (had opened one as a graduate student). I got a letter from them saying that the account was overdrawn by $0.00 and I need to go to a branch to pay it off before they could close the account. It was weird. I think I ignored the letter.

It wasn't Chase in my case, but I once closed a bank account and transferred an IRA simultaneously out of the same bank (closing all my accounts at once). They accidentally(?) left a couple of bucks in the checking account, apparently didn't actually close it, and didn't shut off the monthly auto-invest into the (also apparently not closed) IRA. So a couple of weeks later I got a notice that I was overdrawn some random-looking amount (IRA contribution minus the random couple of dollars and miscellaneous cents they'd left in there) because of an auto-transfer between two accounts that should have been closed. I was REALLY not happy to have to spend an hour at a bank branch getting that sorted out. They had the gall to tell me I should have told them to stop the auto-invest between my closed (yet mysteriously still active?) accounts. Because clearly this debacle of accounting was MY fault...

Yes, why didn't you foresee their mistake and prevent it??  Ha.

I was told by Wells Fargo to be sure I stopped my automatic payment on my mortgage when I made the transfer that paid off the loan. If I didn't do so, they would continue to transfer the money to a loan with a $0 balance that was closed.

[markbike528CBX]

This is a MPP. 

I wouldn't even consider causing a scene like that for a few cents.  IMO that's just ridiculous.

Think it as theater of the absurd.  Also, the several cents are preventing closure of an unused account that might be a prybar into other personal info.

[SwordGuy]

This is a MPP. 

I wouldn't even consider causing a scene like that for a few cents.  IMO that's just ridiculous.

Think it as theater of the absurd.  Also, the several cents are preventing closure of an unused account that might be a prybar into other personal info.

Exactly.   If the business wants to be that absurd to do business with, then help them be absurd in public.   No need to let them be shy about it.

As for the tellers, I didn't say be mean to them or shout at them.   Just speak loud enough for everyone to hear.   Not at all the same thing!  (Being able to be heard when needed is a really important life skill.   A young lady being hassled by a guy in the parking lot was lucky I happened to hear just enough to walk closer and pay close attention to what was going on.  She didn't know how to project her voice.)

Who knows, they might enjoy seeing someone "stick it to the man" they happen to work with.

[TVRodriguez]

Today's MPP is that I had intended to just buy my kid's Halloween costume this year.  But I've discovered that the costume he wanted, while super popular two years ago, is not available in his size for an amount that I'm willing to pay.  So, now I have to brave Walmart this afternoon to try to find something that will work.  Or he's going to have to pick something else, which will be his MPP for the day.

If you haven't gone yet, consider stopping by Goodwill first.  My kids and I have had great luck finding costumes there over several Halloweens.  They love it because I am willing to let them pick 2 or 3 costumes instead of just one new one bought from Party City or the like.  Three Goodwill costumes at $5 each is still less than a single new one at $20-40 each.

[Sugaree]

Today's MPP is that I had intended to just buy my kid's Halloween costume this year.  But I've discovered that the costume he wanted, while super popular two years ago, is not available in his size for an amount that I'm willing to pay.  So, now I have to brave Walmart this afternoon to try to find something that will work.  Or he's going to have to pick something else, which will be his MPP for the day.

If you haven't gone yet, consider stopping by Goodwill first.  My kids and I have had great luck finding costumes there over several Halloweens.  They love it because I am willing to let them pick 2 or 3 costumes instead of just one new one bought from Party City or the like.  Three Goodwill costumes at $5 each is still less than a single new one at $20-40 each.

I think I found all the parts I need to make it for ~$16.  This might be the last year where he's okay with having a costume that mom made vs one that was bought in a store.  But when that happens, I'll just give him $20 and take him to a popup Halloween store and let him pick from what's available.

[Alfred J Quack]

It was time for the energybill to come round. Since we swapped out city heating with a stand-alone heat-pump I've been watching our electric like a hawk. The usage was a bit higher than I hoped so I was annoyed that by my calculations we would have to pay about 100 extra for the total.

I didn't factor in the tax discount every home gets by default, now I have to reshuffle my calculations because I'm getting back an additional 200 rather than pay 100...

Side note: I went from 40 per month electric and 70 for city heating the year before to 50 per month electric with heating included. Not too shabby :P

[techwiz]

It was time for the energybill to come round. Since we swapped out city heating with a stand-alone heat-pump I've been watching our electric like a hawk. The usage was a bit higher than I hoped so I was annoyed that by my calculations we would have to pay about 100 extra for the total.

I didn't factor in the tax discount every home gets by default, now I have to reshuffle my calculations because I'm getting back an additional 200 rather than pay 100...

Side note: I went from 40 per month electric and 70 for city heating the year before to 50 per month electric with heating included. Not too shabby :P

Wow great job on lowering the bill!

It does show the MPP problem that the credit and billing reform can really mess up us who are trying to optimize and track our spending. Your gas bill just came in and shows the (new)carbon tax, however at the same time they applied an energy tax credit, increased the service and delivery charges and put in a lower base price for gas.  How am I suppose to track when they change all the variables on the rates.  My only advice is to keep it simple and look at only total cost and usage. 

[Alfred J Quack]

It was time for the energybill to come round. Since we swapped out city heating with a stand-alone heat-pump I've been watching our electric like a hawk. The usage was a bit higher than I hoped so I was annoyed that by my calculations we would have to pay about 100 extra for the total.

I didn't factor in the tax discount every home gets by default, now I have to reshuffle my calculations because I'm getting back an additional 200 rather than pay 100...

Side note: I went from 40 per month electric and 70 for city heating the year before to 50 per month electric with heating included. Not too shabby :P

Wow great job on lowering the bill!

It does show the MPP problem that the credit and billing reform can really mess up us who are trying to optimize and track our spending. Your gas bill just came in and shows the (new)carbon tax, however at the same time they applied an energy tax credit, increased the service and delivery charges and put in a lower base price for gas.  How am I suppose to track when they change all the variables on the rates.  My only advice is to keep it simple and look at only total cost and usage.

I basically have 2 cost factors:
1. Fixed costs per year, which I calculate per day and update based on the tarif changes at 1-1 every year.
2. Cost per unit of usage, this is a fixed term contract so for the duration this stays the same.

Easy to track, if you don't miss the tax credit ;)

[shelivesthedream]

Total MPP here. Weep for me! Potty training advice all talks about buying your toddler underwear featuring their favourite character as a motivator. ToddlerSLTD...doesn't have one. We don't have a TV (although he does get to watch the odd dog video on Youtube) and we don't read any of the hip-cool modern children's books. Paddington Bear is no longer rad enough to be featured on underwear, it seems.

[Imma]

Good job @Alfred J Quack ! Our bill came recently and we don't get any money back for the first time ever. We have always reduced out energy consumption by about 5%/year. Seems our freezer is dying and needs to be replaced.

Resulting MPP: my new monthly payment will be much higher than necessary because the higher use was a one-off, and I don't get any interest over that money even though I'm really just giving a loan to the power company. As we will replace the 10 year old freezer with the most energy efficient new model, we might even hit a new record low next year.

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

[frugalnacho]

Total MPP here. Weep for me! Potty training advice all talks about buying your toddler underwear featuring their favourite character as a motivator. ToddlerSLTD...doesn't have one. We don't have a TV (although he does get to watch the odd dog video on Youtube) and we don't read any of the hip-cool modern children's books. Paddington Bear is no longer rad enough to be featured on underwear, it seems.

We are in a similar situation, babynacho doesn't watch tv or anything.  He is absolutely OBSESSED with trains, and cars/trucks/anything with wheels though, so we did thomas the tank engine undies.  He was excited for trains even though he doesn't know the character Thomas.

[Alfred J Quack]

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

Natural gas has between 8 and 9kWh of usable heating energy in it per cumic meter measured. Depending on your heater and how efficient it is (HR heaters can use the natural gas to extract some of the heat from the exhaust gas).

I would also call the electric company and ask them to lower the monthly due, you can explain them why and over here that is absolutely no problem so long as you remain between reasonable values.

[frugalnacho]

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

Why?

[shelivesthedream]

Total MPP here. Weep for me! Potty training advice all talks about buying your toddler underwear featuring their favourite character as a motivator. ToddlerSLTD...doesn't have one. We don't have a TV (although he does get to watch the odd dog video on Youtube) and we don't read any of the hip-cool modern children's books. Paddington Bear is no longer rad enough to be featured on underwear, it seems.

We are in a similar situation, babynacho doesn't watch tv or anything.  He is absolutely OBSESSED with trains, and cars/trucks/anything with wheels though, so we did thomas the tank engine undies.  He was excited for trains even though he doesn't know the character Thomas.

We actually got a few free Thomas the Tank Engine books (modern ones) and ToddlerSLTD was just...meh. He pointed at them and shouted "train!" a few times, so he recognises them for what they are, but wasn't interested in having them read to him at all and they are now basically gathering dust. (If you're interested in train book recs, he LOVES the Little Red Train series by Benedict Blathwayt, and we enjoy the detailed illustrations and occasionally WTF storylines)

Top interests of the moment:
- Trains
- White vans
- DOGS
- Flowers

When they release white van underpants, I'll be first in the queue :D

[Imma]

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

Why?

Because gas is expensive and will be getting more expensive in the future, and at some point within the next couple of decades we'll all have to stop using gas. My city has started a project to take the first 3 neighbourhoods off gas this year and nationwide, natural gas is banned in new builds. Of course it's a big project to take a neighbourhood off gas so it'll probably be 5-10 years until the transition to renewable energy is done in the first 3 neighbourhoods, but the city is already preparing to roll out the projects to other areas.

[ABC123]

Total MPP here. Weep for me! Potty training advice all talks about buying your toddler underwear featuring their favourite character as a motivator. ToddlerSLTD...doesn't have one. We don't have a TV (although he does get to watch the odd dog video on Youtube) and we don't read any of the hip-cool modern children's books. Paddington Bear is no longer rad enough to be featured on underwear, it seems.

If he likes dogs, how about some Paw Patrol undies?  Dogs in fire outfits, police outfits, etc.  He doesn't have to know they come from a tv show.  My toddler picked out Elmo undies (or "Momo" as he calls it), even though we sure aren't going to subscribe to HBO so he can watch Sesame Street. 

[SwordGuy]

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

Why?

Because gas is expensive and will be getting more expensive in the future, and at some point within the next couple of decades we'll all have to stop using gas. My city has started a project to take the first 3 neighbourhoods off gas this year and nationwide, natural gas is banned in new builds. Of course it's a big project to take a neighbourhood off gas so it'll probably be 5-10 years until the transition to renewable energy is done in the first 3 neighbourhoods, but the city is already preparing to roll out the projects to other areas.

Gas in tanks stored at the house?  No idea on pricing.

Gas delivered via pipes to the house?   It's always been cheaper than electric heat, hasn't it?

My understanding is that the shale oil drilling in the US has unlocked a lot of natural gas and driven prices down.   A quick glance at charts on google appears to back that belief.

What makes you think otherwise?

[TomTX]

Gas in tanks stored at the house?  No idea on pricing.

Gas delivered via pipes to the house?   It's always been cheaper than electric heat, hasn't it?

My understanding is that the shale oil drilling in the US has unlocked a lot of natural gas and driven prices down.   A quick glance at charts on google appears to back that belief.

What makes you think otherwise?

Cheaper than resistance heating, sure. But modern heat pumps with a COP over 4 (think of it as an efficiency multiplier) and do well in sub-freezing temperatures are much easier to come by - and should beat natural gas costwise.

[parkerk]

My MPP today is that I've gotten so used to making my own fancy coffee drinks at home that when I got a free latte from Starbucks this morning I realized I don't like them anymore!  They just don't taste as good as what I can make myself for a fraction of the cost.

[Imma]

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now, so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

Why?

Because gas is expensive and will be getting more expensive in the future, and at some point within the next couple of decades we'll all have to stop using gas. My city has started a project to take the first 3 neighbourhoods off gas this year and nationwide, natural gas is banned in new builds. Of course it's a big project to take a neighbourhood off gas so it'll probably be 5-10 years until the transition to renewable energy is done in the first 3 neighbourhoods, but the city is already preparing to roll out the projects to other areas.

Gas in tanks stored at the house?  No idea on pricing.

Gas delivered via pipes to the house?   It's always been cheaper than electric heat, hasn't it?

My understanding is that the shale oil drilling in the US has unlocked a lot of natural gas and driven prices down.   A quick glance at charts on google appears to back that belief.

What makes you think otherwise?

Not being in the US does :)

I have no idea what natural gas costs over there, but it's getting really expensive in here due to government policy to make it more expensive, to try and discourage people from using gas in favour of electricity. Over the last 5 years the price of gas has almost doubled while electricity is getting cheaper. This is not going to change as it's a result of tax policy. Our energy consumption is getting lower each year and our bill just gets higher and higher.

Why is the government doing this, except for the general need to reduce the use of fossil fuels? Because we have gotten used to cheap and plenty gas over the last 50 years, but gas drilling comes at a huge cost to the environment and society because it has given us an earthquake problem. So we need to stop using it asap.

[Taran Wanderer]

Most of Europe's natural gas is supplied from Russia, isn't it?  So a government energy policy to make natural gas more expensive could be both due to climate change concerns around burning fossil fuels, and also political concerns about being dependent on the big bear to the east.

[Imma]

Most of our natural gas right now still comes from our own soil, which is why the earthquakes bother us so much. Tbh I don't think many people would care so much about environmental issues in Russia, but we see how gas drilling is causing big problems in our own country which is why there's huge political pressure to stop drilling completely. Norway is a big exporter to Europe as well but their supply is not enough. That leaves us with the choice of becoming dependent on Russian and American gas or finding sustainable local sources of energy. The energy transition isn't going to be quick and easy so in the short term we will have to import, but in the long term getting off the gas network entirely should be possible.

[TVRodriguez]

My MPP today is that I've gotten so used to making my own fancy coffee drinks at home that when I got a free latte from Starbucks this morning I realized I don't like them anymore!  They just don't taste as good as what I can make myself for a fraction of the cost.

That's a good one.  Reminds me that I've got a $10 gift card to Starbucks (was a referral reward from our orthodontist) that I have yet to use.  It's kind of too much for DH and me, as neither of us likes Starbucks, and too little to use to buy something for each of my 3 kids (I thought of bringing them there as a treat to use up the gift card).  So it sits in my wallet.  I then thought to give it to one of the moms who hands me down clothes for my kids, but I thought maybe a $25 value would be better, so the GC just sits there.

[BTDretire]

Good job @Alfred J Quack ! Our bill came recently and we don't get any money back for the first time ever. We have always reduced out energy consumption by about 5%/year. Seems our freezer is dying and needs to be replaced.

Resulting MPP: my new monthly payment will be much higher than necessary because the higher use was a one-off, and I don't get any interest over that money even though I'm really just giving a loan to the power company. As we will replace the 10 year old freezer with the most energy efficient new model, we might even hit a new record low next year.

Another MPP related to record-keeping: We are actively trying to reduce natural gas in favour of electricity and have some electric heating now,

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

so it's going to be much harder to compare one year to the next year from now on without creating a really big Excel sheet (instead of the small text file I use now).

[TomTX]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

In many areas which have good resources, it's cheaper to build a wind farm than it is to just buy the fuel for a natural gas plant. Just run the natural gas plant when there isn't enough wind.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

Note that's based on 2018 data - prices continue to decline.

[shelivesthedream]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

Not being in the US does :)

I have no idea what natural gas costs over there, but it's getting really expensive in here due to government policy to make it more expensive, to try and discourage people from using gas in favour of electricity. Over the last 5 years the price of gas has almost doubled while electricity is getting cheaper. This is not going to change as it's a result of tax policy. Our energy consumption is getting lower each year and our bill just gets higher and higher.

Why is the government doing this, except for the general need to reduce the use of fossil fuels? Because we have gotten used to cheap and plenty gas over the last 50 years, but gas drilling comes at a huge cost to the environment and society because it has given us an earthquake problem. So we need to stop using it asap.

[Alfred J Quack]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

In many areas which have good resources, it's cheaper to build a wind farm than it is to just buy the fuel for a natural gas plant. Just run the natural gas plant when there isn't enough wind.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

Note that's based on 2018 data - prices continue to decline.

Although I agree with the greener pastures of engery generation, a lot of my co-habitants in Europe do not: https://earther.gizmodo.com/anti-wind-farm-activism-is-sweeping-europe-and-the-us-c-1829627812

And yes, I'm guessing I'd have issues with a windfarm close to my house but the sites these people are terrorizing are faily distant from housing so they only thing they should see is some blades turning in the distance...

[TomTX]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

In many areas which have good resources, it's cheaper to build a wind farm than it is to just buy the fuel for a natural gas plant. Just run the natural gas plant when there isn't enough wind.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

Note that's based on 2018 data - prices continue to decline.

Although I agree with the greener pastures of engery generation, a lot of my co-habitants in Europe do not: https://earther.gizmodo.com/anti-wind-farm-activism-is-sweeping-europe-and-the-us-c-1829627812

And yes, I'm guessing I'd have issues with a windfarm close to my house but the sites these people are terrorizing are faily distant from housing so they only thing they should see is some blades turning in the distance...

Yeah, these stories are way overblown in the media and usually trace back to just a handful of people. I note that they don't have a single picture of an actual protest, and it only takes one guy to set fire to a couple tires in front of police. But Gizmodo can make it sound way dramatic and get clicks.

The fossil fuel industry has been funding fake grassroots groups ("Astroturfing") to slow anything with renewable energy. For decades. They also sabotaged early-modern electric car efforts via battery patents. The battery patents for the batteries used for the GM EV1 (later, better, almost practical version) ended up with ChevronTexaco, who did precisely nothing with it. Practical electric cars were forced to wait for prices to come down on Lithium rechargeables - the first being the Tesla Roadster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

The exact same technique of astroturfing was used for tobacco, to keep it in use (and making billions in profits) as long as possible.

Before that, the exact same technique was used for lead in gasoline (much cheaper to add tetraethyl lead than improve octane safely)

Et cetera.

The fossil industry is raking $5 Billion every DAY, and has trillions in assets which will dramatically drop in value as we reduce fossil fuel use.

Throwing a few million into astroturfing is an immensely profitable "investment" - one day of net delay, $5 Billion.

Trump is mentioned in the article - fossil fuel interests (especially coal) have been pouring money over to him.

https://www.climaterealityproject.org/blog/climate-denial-machine-how-fossil-fuel-industry-blocks-climate-action

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/how-fossil-fuel-lobbyists-used-astroturf-front-groups-confuse-public

If you don't know better, you think that regular citizens are just speaking up - when in fact they're being paid by Big Fossil to do so.

[LennStar]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

In many areas which have good resources, it's cheaper to build a wind farm than it is to just buy the fuel for a natural gas plant. Just run the natural gas plant when there isn't enough wind.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

Note that's based on 2018 data - prices continue to decline.

Although I agree with the greener pastures of engery generation, a lot of my co-habitants in Europe do not: https://earther.gizmodo.com/anti-wind-farm-activism-is-sweeping-europe-and-the-us-c-1829627812

And yes, I'm guessing I'd have issues with a windfarm close to my house but the sites these people are terrorizing are faily distant from housing so they only thing they should see is some blades turning in the distance...

But the 15 minutes of swishing shadows when the sun is low!!!

And as TomTX said, if you track where the funding for many of the "people's protests" come from, it very often are the same dozen groups that are financed by fossil fuel companies. (By which I do not want to imply that the protesters necessarily know it.)
Or the studies that X birds die, and when someone else does the same couting, the numbers are 100 times lower or zero.

[never give up]

My latest Mustachian People Problem is that I feel sad that Heather in Ottawa hasn’t logged in since 2016, and therefore probably doesn’t know her thread is at 136 pages and still going strong.

[Imma]

Why? Isn't gas cheaper?
 Does most of you electric come from clean nuclear energy and you want to go green, that's fine, I just want to know, why?

In many areas which have good resources, it's cheaper to build a wind farm than it is to just buy the fuel for a natural gas plant. Just run the natural gas plant when there isn't enough wind.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08/wind-power-prices-now-lower-than-the-cost-of-natural-gas/

Note that's based on 2018 data - prices continue to decline.

Although I agree with the greener pastures of engery generation, a lot of my co-habitants in Europe do not: https://earther.gizmodo.com/anti-wind-farm-activism-is-sweeping-europe-and-the-us-c-1829627812

And yes, I'm guessing I'd have issues with a windfarm close to my house but the sites these people are terrorizing are faily distant from housing so they only thing they should see is some blades turning in the distance...

But the 15 minutes of swishing shadows when the sun is low!!!

And as TomTX said, if you track where the funding for many of the "people's protests" come from, it very often are the same dozen groups that are financed by fossil fuel companies. (By which I do not want to imply that the protesters necessarily know it.)
Or the studies that X birds die, and when someone else does the same couting, the numbers are 100 times lower or zero.

What concerns me is that over the last 2-3 years, it has become much more acceptable in my social circle to be sceptical of climate change, renewable energy etc. And those 'sceptics' have one argument they keep on repeating and that they are completely right about: there is no perfect solution for the energy transition yet. They are right, there isn't one completely perfect solution and we're unlikely to find it ever. But one thing I can also tell you, is that all of these options are better than just continuing to use fossil fuels until we run out of them.

We can't put wind parks everywhere, but we can put them in some places with lots of wind and not many inhabitants (I can't speak from experience, but apart from the shade they are said to be noisy as well). Those other locations might be much better suited for solar or hydro energy or sources of renwable energy we haven't even discovered yet. On top of that, we need to find ways to reduce energy consumption and I think if everyone put in a little bit of effort, we could already reduce our energy consumption by so much at the current level of technology.

[shelivesthedream]

Off the back of this discussion, I wonder if anyone can point me to any accessible resources/discussions about what a genuinely sustainable lifestyle/level of consumption looks like. I'm thinking about something like One Planet Development in Wales (http://www.oneplanetcouncil.org.uk/) but obviously you can't give every person on the planet a plot of land and expect them and society to make a living from it.

So, for example, what IS a reasonable individual allocation of energy consumption? I'd love to read more about opinions on this.

[TomTX]

We can't put wind parks everywhere, but we can put them in some places with lots of wind and not many inhabitants (I can't speak from experience, but apart from the shade they are said to be noisy as well). Those other locations might be much better suited for solar or hydro energy or sources of renwable energy we haven't even discovered yet. On top of that, we need to find ways to reduce energy consumption and I think if everyone put in a little bit of effort, we could already reduce our energy consumption by so much at the current level of technology.

The first protest referenced in that article was a particularly dumb one. They were protesting offshore turbines.

Not only does nobody live nearby to bother, they act as nurseries for fish by keeping out commercial trawlers net fishing, noticeably improving fish stocks in the general area. Recreational fishing is still fine around the turbines (ie, a few people in a boat with some lines) - but by keeping out the huge nets, fish can repopulate - and then the extra population spills out into areas which can be commercially fished, increasing their take as well.

[TomTX]

My latest Mustachian People Problem is that I feel sad that Heather in Ottawa hasn’t logged in since 2016, and therefore probably doesn’t know her thread is at 136 pages and still going strong.

If you click on her name, then on her page you click on the envelope icon - you can send her an email. Presuming she uses the same email address.

[never give up]

That's a cunning plan TomTX. I'm worried I may sound a bit weird though. "Hi you don't know me. I'm a total stranger from the UK but I've just posted in the Mustachian People Problems (just for fun) thread and it's now 136 pages long. If you haven't read it since 2016 you have a lot of catching up to do. Hope you're well. Thanks again for starting an epic thread. Regards never give up and others from the MMM forums"

[TomTX]

That's a cunning plan TomTX. I'm worried I may sound a bit weird though. "Hi you don't know me. I'm a total stranger from the UK but I've just posted in the Mustachian People Problems (just for fun) thread and it's now 136 pages long. If you haven't read it since 2016 you have a lot of catching up to do. Hope you're well. Thanks again for starting an epic thread. Regards never give up and others from the MMM forums"

Well - if it makes you feel less weird - I already sent her an email! ;)

[never give up]

Haha nice one! You'll have to let us know what she says.

[LennStar]

What concerns me is that over the last 2-3 years, it has become much more acceptable in my social circle to be sceptical of climate change, renewable energy etc. And those 'sceptics' have one argument they keep on repeating and that they are completely right about: there is no perfect solution for the energy transition yet. They are right, there isn't one completely perfect solution and we're unlikely to find it ever. But one thing I can also tell you, is that all of these options are better than just continuing to use fossil fuels until we run out of them.

"There is no perfect solution" is about the stupidest thing ever.

Back when the world started to electrify, they were very far away from perfect. There even was a "war" between AC and DC proponents, culminating in the invention of electrical death sentence - Edison (DC) wanted to show how dangerous AC is to kill off not only criminals but also his competition, and proposed eletrocution.

And Japan has even today 2 seperate electric grids - one with 50Hz (like Europe)  and with 60 Hz (US). Why?
Because when it all started, Japanese bought two generators, one in the US and one from Berlin. And since Japan after WWII produced basically all electric household stuff of the world, it is normal that a microwave you buy here in Germany can also work with 60Hz. Isn't history strange?

[BicycleB]

Off the back of this discussion, I wonder if anyone can point me to any accessible resources/discussions about what a genuinely sustainable lifestyle/level of consumption looks like. I'm thinking about something like One Planet Development in Wales (http://www.oneplanetcouncil.org.uk/) but obviously you can't give every person on the planet a plot of land and expect them and society to make a living from it.

So, for example, what IS a reasonable individual allocation of energy consumption? I'd love to read more about opinions on this.

Just got back from a town hall on climate, where I finally heard of an apparently fabulous book called "Drawdown / The Most Comprehensive Book Ever Proposed to Reverse Global Warming", compiled by Paul Hawken. Its thesis is that by implementing multiple approaches with known technology, we can actually reverse global warming - that we have the power to do this. The book lists 80 techniques and includes some estimation of each technique's impact, apparently.

Since some of the approaches are individual, one way to estimate a reasonable allocation would be to figure out a life that applies the individual approaches, then determine how much energy consumption that life would entail. You could use UCBerkeley's Cool Climate calculator for the calculation, probably.

https://www.drawdown.org/the-book
https://coolclimate.berkeley.edu/calculator

I am thrilled to have more direct leverage on this issue than I thought. My MPP is that this topic risks a thread derail, but it's too exciting not to reply to!

[lazycow]

Mine is such a pissy little problem, but I made a double lot of pea and ham soup over winter, thinking I was rocking the batch cooking. The family decided they didn't like it any more, so I have to now eat the whole  big container I defrosted today over the week, as I didn't store it in individual servings.

[shelivesthedream]

Off the back of this discussion, I wonder if anyone can point me to any accessible resources/discussions about what a genuinely sustainable lifestyle/level of consumption looks like. I'm thinking about something like One Planet Development in Wales (http://www.oneplanetcouncil.org.uk/) but obviously you can't give every person on the planet a plot of land and expect them and society to make a living from it.

So, for example, what IS a reasonable individual allocation of energy consumption? I'd love to read more about opinions on this.

Just got back from a town hall on climate, where I finally heard of an apparently fabulous book called "Drawdown / The Most Comprehensive Book Ever Proposed to Reverse Global Warming", compiled by Paul Hawken. Its thesis is that by implementing multiple approaches with known technology, we can actually reverse global warming - that we have the power to do this. The book lists 80 techniques and includes some estimation of each technique's impact, apparently.

Since some of the approaches are individual, one way to estimate a reasonable allocation would be to figure out a life that applies the individual approaches, then determine how much energy consumption that life would entail. You could use UCBerkeley's Cool Climate calculator for the calculation, probably.

https://www.drawdown.org/the-book
https://coolclimate.berkeley.edu/calculator

I am thrilled to have more direct leverage on this issue than I thought. My MPP is that this topic risks a thread derail, but it's too exciting not to reply to!

Thanks! This looks great! I'm reading through the online summaries and finding them really interesting.

(I guess people can PM me if they want to recommend stuff but don't want to to derail the thread.)