Author Topic: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive  (Read 116044 times)

Kansas Beachbum

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 182
  • Location: Kansas City Metro
More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« on: April 27, 2016, 03:18:02 PM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/savingandinvesting/were-going-broke-chasing-the-american-dream/ar-BBsk89s?li=BBnbfcN

Another article, this time based on a piece written by an essentially bankrupt 66 year old author who freely admits he was a financial illiterate (at best), that goes on to blame the high cost of the American Dream instead of people's own poor choices.  It's hard to tell your daughter you can't send her to Stanford, but that she will just have to go to the local state college instead...geeze.

lightmyfire

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Age: 45
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2016, 03:46:01 PM »
This is even worse than the original Neal Gabler article it responds to.  This really belongs on the Wall of Shame.  Particularly head-shaking is his reference to a previous infographic that estimates an American family of 4 requires $130,000 a year to "live the American dream."

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2016, 04:03:00 PM »
This is even worse than the original Neal Gabler article it responds to.  This really belongs on the Wall of Shame.  Particularly head-shaking is his reference to a previous infographic that estimates an American family of 4 requires $130,000 a year to "live the American dream."

I remember when that stupid infographic was first posted. Was as insane then as it is now. They put a 4WD SUV under "essentials".

RangerOne

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 714
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2016, 05:04:41 PM »
I am sorry but putting 2 kids through all privates schools and ivy league universities is not the American dream, the has always been the option for the rich... To pretend otherwise on even a solid professional salary is asking for a life of financial woes. Do they know how rare it is to be sent to an Ivy League school and on top of that have your parents or grandparents pay for it outright without massive loans?

You can't get ahead by demonstrating to your kids how to financially cripple yourself at every turn... Advancement in life is not demonstrated by purchasing things you can't afford.

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2016, 05:08:28 PM »
I think it's more telling as to how the American dream has shifted over time from a set of ideals towards a materialistic status. What a shallow culture we've become.

Northwestie

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2016, 05:20:56 PM »
At some point over say, a 30 year career, wouldn't you at least ask where this is all leading to??  I'm ok with folks making a financial mistake or two - but sooner or later don't you become an adult?

WildJager

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • Age: 37
    • Can't complain.
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2016, 05:37:48 PM »
I am sorry but putting 2 kids through all privates schools and ivy league universities is not the American dream, the has always been the option for the rich... To pretend otherwise on even a solid professional salary is asking for a life of financial woes. Do they know how rare it is to be sent to an Ivy League school and on top of that have your parents or grandparents pay for it outright without massive loans?

You can't get ahead by demonstrating to your kids how to financially cripple yourself at every turn... Advancement in life is not demonstrated by purchasing things you can't afford.

This is basically the same line of thinking that buying a smaller car for your family has suddenly become driving around in a, "death trap."  Even though we came out on top from the cold war, we haven't learned the lessons from it as a population.  Education, like cars, has become an arms race instead of a life enhancement.

stoaX

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1008
  • Location: South Carolina
  • 'tis nothing good nor bad but thinking makes it so
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2016, 05:45:47 PM »
At some point over say, a 30 year career, wouldn't you at least ask where this is all leading to??  I'm ok with folks making a financial mistake or two - but sooner or later don't you become an adult?

Well said!

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2016, 05:54:42 PM »
The older CNBC talking head in the video cracks me up. He's not buying any of that.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2016, 05:58:14 PM »
I hate it when people write about abstract concepts without defining what they mean, as if everyone should just know.  It should be required to define what you consider The American Dream™ if you're going to write about it in any length.  The whole discussion is useless.  The link to the author's "it takes $130k" to live The American Dream™ still doesn't define anything, all it does is list some spending at inflated prices.

forummm

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7374
  • Senior Mustachian
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2016, 06:43:23 PM »
I hate it when people write about abstract concepts without defining what they mean, as if everyone should just know.  It should be required to define what you consider The American Dream™ if you're going to write about it in any length.  The whole discussion is useless.  The link to the author's "it takes $130k" to live The American Dream™ still doesn't define anything, all it does is list some spending at inflated prices.

Yeah. And The Middle Class too. Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class. Unless the topic is taxes, in which case people with minimum wage jobs think they are about to be crucified by the estate tax.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2016, 06:52:15 PM »
Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class.

Man, I've been saying that for years!!  :)

tobitonic

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 549
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2016, 06:54:34 PM »
I like using quintiles for the middle class debates, and calling the 2/5-4/5 quintiles MC. That even leaves room for the nonsensical "upper" middle class qualifier (4/5)!

2buttons

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2016, 07:11:35 PM »
The older CNBC talking head in the video cracks me up. He's not buying any of that.

Joe Kernan is my favorite talking head in the MSM. 

yakamashii

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Japan
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2016, 07:19:59 PM »
You can't get ahead

I think this phrase is part of the problem with The American Dream, and worship of economic or other growth for growth's sake. It's an illusion to think we all can or deserve to "get ahead." If we all "got ahead" or focused on getting ahead of whatever station we're at, someone would have to be "behind," or we would have to be leaving something behind (and those somethings often ain't broke and don't need fixin').

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2016, 07:30:51 PM »
Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class. Unless the topic is taxes, in which case people with minimum wage jobs think they are about to be crucified by the estate tax.

Well someday, they will be! Any minute now...just wait for it...they're going to have tens of millions of dollars. That day is coming, just around the corner.

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2016, 07:48:38 PM »
Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class. Unless the topic is taxes, in which case people with minimum wage jobs think they are about to be crucified by the estate tax.

Well someday, they will be! Any minute now...just wait for it...they're going to have tens of millions of dollars. That day is coming, just around the corner.

Because even though they're struggling they understand that the poor not paying their fair share is wrong and that taxes targeting special segments of our population is contrary to American ideals.

Or maybe they realize (correctly) that enabling taxes on the rich can limit their own economic freedoms and mobility.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2016, 08:01:16 PM »
The older CNBC talking head in the video cracks me up. He's not buying any of that.

Joe Kernan is my favorite talking head in the MSM.
What's the MSM?

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2016, 08:03:08 PM »
Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class. Unless the topic is taxes, in which case people with minimum wage jobs think they are about to be crucified by the estate tax.

Well someday, they will be! Any minute now...just wait for it...they're going to have tens of millions of dollars. That day is coming, just around the corner.

Because even though they're struggling they understand that the poor not paying their fair share is wrong and that taxes targeting special segments of our population is contrary to American ideals.

Or maybe they realize (correctly) that enabling taxes on the rich can limit their own economic freedoms and mobility.

Take it somewhere else, Rush.  I'm sure there's an Off Topic thread where you an Ayn Rand can have a nice circle jerk.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 08:04:42 PM by Eric »

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2016, 08:26:15 PM »
Everyone thinks they are in The Middle Class. Unless the topic is taxes, in which case people with minimum wage jobs think they are about to be crucified by the estate tax.

Well someday, they will be! Any minute now...just wait for it...they're going to have tens of millions of dollars. That day is coming, just around the corner.

Because even though they're struggling they understand that the poor not paying their fair share is wrong and that taxes targeting special segments of our population is contrary to American ideals.

Or maybe they realize (correctly) that enabling taxes on the rich can limit their own economic freedoms and mobility.

We've been lowering taxes on the richest people for something like 30 years now. How has that been working out for the poor? You say all the time how the War on Poverty hasn't done anything. So what have lower taxes been doing?

How the hell does an estate tax (sorry, death tax) hurt "economic freedoms" and social mobility??? The tax only applies 0.2% of estates.

We get it, you think the government is worthless and taxation is inherently evil. But save your breath for an issue where it actually makes sense. The estate tax is not killing lower and middle class prosperity. Give it a rest.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2016, 08:35:12 PM »
People whose estate is actually subject to the scary death taxes know better than to bring it up.

It's one of those financial litmus tests, like how carrying a balance improves your credit score.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2016, 08:36:21 PM »
The older CNBC talking head in the video cracks me up. He's not buying any of that.

Joe Kernan is my favorite talking head in the MSM.
What's the MSM?

Mainstream media

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2016, 08:39:53 PM »
Because even though they're struggling they understand that the poor not paying their fair share is wrong and that taxes targeting special segments of our population is contrary to American ideals.

Or maybe they realize (correctly) that enabling taxes on the rich can limit their own economic freedoms and mobility.

Take it somewhere else, Rush.  I'm sure there's an Off Topic thread where you an Ayn Rand can have a nice circle jerk.

I think these concepts are central to how and why the definition of the American dream has shifted to where it is now. It's also key regarding the American public's perception as to how expansion and shifting roles of government enable (or hinder) it.

We've been lowering taxes on the richest people for something like 30 years now. How has that been working out for the poor? You say all the time how the War on Poverty hasn't done anything. So what have lower taxes been doing?

How the hell does an estate tax (sorry, death tax) hurt "economic freedoms" and social mobility??? The tax only applies 0.2% of estates.

We get it, you think the government is worthless and taxation is inherently evil. But save your breath for an issue where it actually makes sense. The estate tax is not killing lower and middle class prosperity. Give it a rest.

We've been lowering federal income income taxes, the rich pay roughly the same effective tax rate today as they paid in the 1980's. Actually, the rich pay a higher percentage more of the total federal tax burden than the poor and middle class do, compared to 1980, and receive less in equivalent benefits. That doesn't count the rise in state tax rates and property taxes and misc taxes like the ACA that have tended to grow to target the rich. If anything, the poor and middle class aren't paying their 'fair share' as compared to 30 years ago.

The estate tax is redistribution tax. It causes behavioral changes that change the method the rich manage their assets to avoid the tax. I wouldn't mind if the estate tax applied to everyone, no minimum limit on the amount taxed, because then it'd be equal and it wouldn't result in avoidance behaviors as much. The same concept applies to our normal progressive tax system with it's infinite level of loopholes and perverse incentives.

And yes, greater levels of taxation do impact socioeconomic mobility and economic freedom. Yes, well-intentioned programs often do have unforeseen deleterious effects on the economy. That's why part of the American dream relied on the concepts of equal opportunity. Not equitable opportunity.

Edit* sorry, lower taxes have been used to provide economic boosts to our slowing economy. If you look at the effects of government transfer payments (like welfare) it usually is correlated with a net negative effects on long term economic growth. Government spending is also strongly correlated with reductions in GDP growth. Taxes have never been an effective method at combating poverty or reducing inequality.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 08:48:39 PM by Yaeger »

undercover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 992
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2016, 08:41:58 PM »
Yeah...the "American Dream" IS too expensive. It's also an antiquated phrase.

BioLawyer

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 09:14:53 PM »
I saw this article and had to come here. Glad to see I wasn't the only one disgusted with the article. Raiding his 401k to pay for a wedding? Ivy league tuition? Those are not essentials.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 09:28:28 PM »
Taxes have never been an effective method at combating poverty or reducing inequality.

Except when they are.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/19/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-said-social-security-keeping-older-a/

From the Congressional Research Service:
Quote
"Social Security has significantly reduced elderly poverty.  The elderly poverty rate has fallen from 35% in 1959 to an all-time low of 9% in 2006, in large part because of Social Security.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/01/08/elderly-among-biggest-winners-in-the-war-on-poverty


Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 09:50:26 PM »
Taxes have never been an effective method at combating poverty or reducing inequality.

Except when they are.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/19/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-said-social-security-keeping-older-a/

From the Congressional Research Service:
Quote
"Social Security has significantly reduced elderly poverty.  The elderly poverty rate has fallen from 35% in 1959 to an all-time low of 9% in 2006, in large part because of Social Security.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/01/08/elderly-among-biggest-winners-in-the-war-on-poverty

So the official metric isn't, but the cherry-picked data is. I see. Social Security reduces poverty, but it does it at the expense of the young in the form of higher taxation which is why the official overall rate was relatively unchanged (see below).

It's also funny that the largest decline in poverty happened immediately prior to the War on Poverty, and hasn't been replicated since, despite spending 7 times more on poverty adjusted for inflation today than in 1965. There ARE effective methods to combat poverty, but it's not via government taxes and redistribution. Stop thinking about methods to bring down the rich and start thinking about increasing employment opportunity to bring up the poor. Hint: stop punishing employers with draconian taxes and regulatory burdens.



Let's get back to the topic as to how this has effected the American dream. However, please understand that the American dream has been about the opportunity to climb the socioeconomic ladder. However, it's relative, so in order for someone to climb someone else has to fall. Failure, the ability to fail, has always been a key part of the American dream.


randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 10:43:02 PM »
Taxes have never been an effective method at combating poverty or reducing inequality.

Except when they are.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/19/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-said-social-security-keeping-older-a/

From the Congressional Research Service:
Quote
"Social Security has significantly reduced elderly poverty.  The elderly poverty rate has fallen from 35% in 1959 to an all-time low of 9% in 2006, in large part because of Social Security.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/01/08/elderly-among-biggest-winners-in-the-war-on-poverty

So the official metric isn't, but the cherry-picked data is. I see. Social Security reduces poverty, but it does it at the expense of the young in the form of higher taxation which is why the official overall rate was relatively unchanged (see below).

It's also funny that the largest decline in poverty happened immediately prior to the War on Poverty, and hasn't been replicated since, despite spending 7 times more on poverty adjusted for inflation today than in 1965. There ARE effective methods to combat poverty, but it's not via government taxes and redistribution. Stop thinking about methods to bring down the rich and start thinking about increasing employment opportunity to bring up the poor. Hint: stop punishing employers with draconian taxes and regulatory burdens.

Let's get back to the topic as to how this has effected the American dream. However, please understand that the American dream has been about the opportunity to climb the socioeconomic ladder. However, it's relative, so in order for someone to climb someone else has to fall. Failure, the ability to fail, has always been a key part of the American dream.

You can call it "cherry picked" if you want, but there are legitimate reasons to use the supplemental measure. The official poverty rate doesn't include things like the earned income tax credit or food stamps AKA those evil transfer payments. Yet those things obviously improve recipients' standard of living.

You are specifically saying "government programs don't help" while at the same time not counting those programs. Of course your world view that taxes and gov programs are evil makes sense in that light.

Quote
However, please understand that the American dream has been about the opportunity to climb the socioeconomic ladder. However, it's relative, so in order for someone to climb someone else has to fall. Failure, the ability to fail, has always been a key part of the American dream.

Right and the issue is that it's currently harder to climb the ladder due to increased inequality. Middle class manufacturing jobs are dead in America. College is a debt trap for those who don't know better. How again are low tax rates for the rich helping any of this??

Your assertion that someone must fail for me to succeed is exactly the toxic perspective we don't need. It creates a selfish greedy culture where wealth concentrates at the top for no societal benefit.

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 11:16:48 PM »
You can call it "cherry picked" if you want, but there are legitimate reasons to use the supplemental measure. The official poverty rate doesn't include things like the earned income tax credit or food stamps AKA those evil transfer payments. Yet those things obviously improve recipients' standard of living.

You are specifically saying "government programs don't help" while at the same time not counting those programs. Of course your world view that taxes and gov programs are evil makes sense in that light.

No, just basic economic principles. There are economic costs and inefficiencies introduced to the economy when you introduce and use government transfer payments. We can argue about the specific effects, but the evidence is pretty clear that the net effect is a net economic loss to society. Helping the poor can be seen as a great social and moral goal, but don't ignore the fact that these things have costs and despite your best intentions towards limiting the tax burdens and the negative economic impacts to the rich, it's rarely reflected in reality.

Someone once described it to me like this: welfare, social security, and other transfer payments are like giving yourself a blood transfer from your left arm to your right arm, and spilling some blood all over the ground in the process.

Quote
However, please understand that the American dream has been about the opportunity to climb the socioeconomic ladder. However, it's relative, so in order for someone to climb someone else has to fall. Failure, the ability to fail, has always been a key part of the American dream.
Right and the issue is that it's currently harder to climb the ladder due to increased inequality. Middle class manufacturing jobs are dead in America. College is a debt trap for those who don't know better. How again are low tax rates for the rich helping any of this??

Your assertion that someone must fail for me to succeed is exactly the toxic perspective we don't need. It creates a selfish greedy culture where wealth concentrates at the top for no societal benefit.

Raising the minimum wage increases income disparity. Increasing environmental pollution costs punishes businesses manufacturing in the US. Increased worker safety, benefits like mandatory healthcare and maternity leave, and others costs make it increasingly more costly to hire Americans and puts downward pressure on wage growth. Your name 'thefinancialstudent' implies you have some understanding of finance and accounting, juggling fixed and variable costs in a business, and this is a surprise to you?

It's a true perspective. When you talk about 'climbing' the socioeconomic ladder, you're talking about increasing your standing in society relative to others in society. Meaning others have to do less well than yourself. Greed hasn't changed throughout history - we've always been greedy, wealth doesn't sit in a big money bin somewhere Scrooge McDuck style, and Capitalism is the only historically proven system that enables economic prosperity. You shouldn't be asking about how you can best help the poor today, but how you can use policy (or lack thereof) to more effectively help the poor in the future.

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2016, 12:06:16 AM »
You can call it "cherry picked" if you want, but there are legitimate reasons to use the supplemental measure. The official poverty rate doesn't include things like the earned income tax credit or food stamps AKA those evil transfer payments. Yet those things obviously improve recipients' standard of living.

You are specifically saying "government programs don't help" while at the same time not counting those programs. Of course your world view that taxes and gov programs are evil makes sense in that light.

No, just basic economic principles. There are economic costs and inefficiencies introduced to the economy when you introduce and use government transfer payments. We can argue about the specific effects, but the evidence is pretty clear that the net effect is a net economic loss to society. Helping the poor can be seen as a great social and moral goal, but don't ignore the fact that these things have costs and despite your best intentions towards limiting the tax burdens and the negative economic impacts to the rich, it's rarely reflected in reality.

Someone once described it to me like this: welfare, social security, and other transfer payments are like giving yourself a blood transfer from your left arm to your right arm, and spilling some blood all over the ground in the process.

Quote
However, please understand that the American dream has been about the opportunity to climb the socioeconomic ladder. However, it's relative, so in order for someone to climb someone else has to fall. Failure, the ability to fail, has always been a key part of the American dream.
Right and the issue is that it's currently harder to climb the ladder due to increased inequality. Middle class manufacturing jobs are dead in America. College is a debt trap for those who don't know better. How again are low tax rates for the rich helping any of this??

Your assertion that someone must fail for me to succeed is exactly the toxic perspective we don't need. It creates a selfish greedy culture where wealth concentrates at the top for no societal benefit.

Raising the minimum wage increases income disparity.
Source?

Increasing environmental pollution costs punishes businesses manufacturing in the US. Increased worker safety, benefits like mandatory healthcare and maternity leave, and others costs make it increasingly more costly to hire Americans and puts downward pressure on wage growth. Your name 'thefinancialstudent' implies you have some understanding of finance and accounting, juggling fixed and variable costs in a business, and this is a surprise to you?

Of course there are costs. No one has argued otherwise. It sounds like you think things like worker safety are not really a priority. As long as profits are up, that's good. Regardless of the moral cost.  I'm not sure how to respond to that. You appear to operate on a different set of values. All you care about is absolute wealth for the individual and everyone else can just fuck off.

It's a true perspective. When you talk about 'climbing' the socioeconomic ladder, you're talking about increasing your standing in society relative to others in society. Meaning others have to do less well than yourself. Greed hasn't changed throughout history - we've always been greedy, wealth doesn't sit in a big money bin somewhere Scrooge McDuck style, and Capitalism is the only historically proven system that enables economic prosperity. You shouldn't be asking about how you can best help the poor today, but how you can use policy (or lack thereof) to more effectively help the poor in the future.

I don't think anyone is suggesting there shouldn't be rewards for hard work/innovation/etc.  But today the rewards are going mostly to a tiny percentage of people. Are the richest 1% or .001% really providing that much extra value to society?  You shit all over social programs while at the same time pretending the majority of those people don't work when in fact they do.

Politically, the same people who want to cut welfare programs are the same people who don't want any investment in society. They want to cut food stamps. OK that's fine. Let's fund college or trade school instead.  Nope they don't want that either, that's a handout. OK let's use tax money for daycare or universal pre-k. No you're a welfare queen. Hmm. Ok I got it. Instead of sending black men to prison for minor crimes, let's fund rehabilitative programs. Nope. Let's arrest as many people as possible and make prison as degrading as possible with inhumane treatment.

You live in this dream world where business can do no wrong and everyone starts life on the same level. You think slight taxation increases bring down the rich. How exactly does someone having 99.5 million instead of 100 million bring them down?

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2016, 09:46:05 AM »
I don't think anyone is suggesting there shouldn't be rewards for hard work/innovation/etc.  But today the rewards are going mostly to a tiny percentage of people. Are the richest 1% or .001% really providing that much extra value to society?  You shit all over social programs while at the same time pretending the majority of those people don't work when in fact they do.

Politically, the same people who want to cut welfare programs are the same people who don't want any investment in society. They want to cut food stamps. OK that's fine. Let's fund college or trade school instead.  Nope they don't want that either, that's a handout. OK let's use tax money for daycare or universal pre-k. No you're a welfare queen. Hmm. Ok I got it. Instead of sending black men to prison for minor crimes, let's fund rehabilitative programs. Nope. Let's arrest as many people as possible and make prison as degrading as possible with inhumane treatment.

You live in this dream world where business can do no wrong and everyone starts life on the same level. You think slight taxation increases bring down the rich. How exactly does someone having 99.5 million instead of 100 million bring them down?

You've bought into the delusion that the system you and people like you have created has turned against you. Welcome to the system with greater government control over the economy. Welcome to crony capitalism where instead of giving you the power to compete, we're legislating 'fairness' instead of equality, which turned into a double-edged sword. Every policy has a negative impact somewhere, and typically it's always a net negative or society wouldn't need government intervention to do it. If there is a net positive to find, entrepreneurs are more than willing to risk their own capital to meet that need.

Also, be aware that the rich only become rich because people voluntarily given them money. That's the fairest system there is. Society is voluntarily giving them what it values their contribution as being. Don't blame the 1% if society doesn't value the burger flipper, blame yourself and every other consumer that's voting with their dollars to support Apple instead of Burger King.

Why is someone investing into a business not considered an investment in society? Doesn't society NEED jobs, NEED economic growth, NEED productive labor to produce goods and services you use everyday? Don't pretend that businesses are the bad guys and are not part of society, they're an integral part of society. What's more beneficial to society, 10 people on welfare or 10 people with jobs? I guess it's because you don't see the negatives associated with social programs and how it's hurting other parts of society. How Social Security is providing a very basic income at old age, yet doing it at a very inefficient cost of a 12.4% (and increasing) tax of everyone's pay.

Warlord1986

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • Age: 37
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2016, 10:17:31 AM »
That follow-up essay is even worse than the garbage that preceded it.

Quote
So maybe we need to redefine the American Dream beyond the purely material goals of the postwar years, when our growth seemed unstoppable. Maybe it should be more about the freedom to succeed or fail on our own terms.


This guy is trying to sound philosophical and like he's contributing to 'the conversation.' Really, he's just spewing a bunch of self-important blather. We already have the freedom to succeed or fail. You don't have to go to an Ivy League school to succeed. You don't have to wait for permission to save and invest. Nobody is forcing you to spend three thousand dollars a year on restaurants. There are other vehicle options other than a 4wd suv that are much cheaper. In the first world, we have more freedom and personal power than we know what to do with, and these fools are trying to convince us we're serfs. It's just not true, and it pisses me off.

AZDude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1296
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2016, 11:47:05 AM »
Quote
...trying to sound philosophical and like he's contributing to 'the conversation.' Really, he's just spewing a bunch of self-important blather.

I am pretty sure this is part of the official job description for anyone who writes "news" for any mainstream media outlet.

Anyway, the American Dream, which is loosely defined as owning your own home and living a middle class lifestyle, *has* become more expensive because people's "necessities"  have increased since 1959. Back then a 2 bdrm home, 900sq ft, electricity, water, and a stable supply of food was good enough for the majority of the population. Now that same situation is looked upon as incredible poverty for a family of four. "OMG, you have to share a bedroom?" "You do not have broadband internet access?" "You do not have cable televisions?" "How do you live?"

So in a way, the doofus who wrote this is correct, although in another, more meaningful way he is just as stupid as the rest of the population.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2016, 11:56:11 AM »
Quote
...trying to sound philosophical and like he's contributing to 'the conversation.' Really, he's just spewing a bunch of self-important blather.

I am pretty sure this is part of the official job description for anyone who writes "news" for any mainstream media outlet.

Anyway, the American Dream, which is loosely defined as owning your own home and living a middle class lifestyle, *has* become more expensive because people's "necessities"  have increased since 1959. Back then a 2 bdrm home, 900sq ft, electricity, water, and a stable supply of food was good enough for the majority of the population. Now that same situation is looked upon as incredible poverty for a family of four. "OMG, you have to share a bedroom?" "You do not have broadband internet access?" "You do not have cable televisions?" "How do you live?"

So in a way, the doofus who wrote this is correct, although in another, more meaningful way he is just as stupid as the rest of the population.

I'd rather live in a cardboard box with broadband than a mansion with dial up.

Warlord1986

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1967
  • Age: 37
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2016, 12:15:53 PM »
Quote
...trying to sound philosophical and like he's contributing to 'the conversation.' Really, he's just spewing a bunch of self-important blather.

I am pretty sure this is part of the official job description for anyone who writes "news" for any mainstream media outlet.

Anyway, the American Dream, which is loosely defined as owning your own home and living a middle class lifestyle, *has* become more expensive because people's "necessities"  have increased since 1959. Back then a 2 bdrm home, 900sq ft, electricity, water, and a stable supply of food was good enough for the majority of the population. Now that same situation is looked upon as incredible poverty for a family of four. "OMG, you have to share a bedroom?" "You do not have broadband internet access?" "You do not have cable televisions?" "How do you live?"

So in a way, the doofus who wrote this is correct, although in another, more meaningful way he is just as stupid as the rest of the population.

I'd rather live in a cardboard box with broadband than a mansion with dial up.

Really? The library has internet connectivity. So does my job, and every coffee shop from here to Columbia (I know coffee shops are not mustachian, but that's not the point here). I could rent out rooms in the mansion as a 'retreat from the hustle and bustle of online' and make bank.

...Now I'm mentally designing this mansion.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2016, 12:31:39 PM »
You can call it "cherry picked" if you want, but there are legitimate reasons to use the supplemental measure. The official poverty rate doesn't include things like the earned income tax credit or food stamps AKA those evil transfer payments. Yet those things obviously improve recipients' standard of living.

You are specifically saying "government programs don't help" while at the same time not counting those programs. Of course your world view that taxes and gov programs are evil makes sense in that light.

No, just basic economic principles. There are economic costs and inefficiencies introduced to the economy when you introduce and use government transfer payments. We can argue about the specific effects, but the evidence is pretty clear that the net effect is a net economic loss to society. Helping the poor can be seen as a great social and moral goal, but don't ignore the fact that these things have costs and despite your best intentions towards limiting the tax burdens and the negative economic impacts to the rich, it's rarely reflected in reality.

Someone once described it to me like this: welfare, social security, and other transfer payments are like giving yourself a blood transfer from your left arm to your right arm, and spilling some blood all over the ground in the process.

While you're correct that there's a net loss to society, your analogy is a bit misleading.  To give a slightly different one:  Imagine one person has 10,000 units of food in his basement (1 unit = 1 year of food), and 1000 other people have 0 units, and you give each of the 1000 people 1 unit of his food, and 100 units fall on the ground.

Now instead of 10,000, the rich guy has 8,900 units of food, and each of the 1000 other people have 1 unit.

It's a net loss to society of 100 units, but you feed 1001 people instead of 1.  Obviously with money it's a bit different, as it's not always a matter of starvation, and there may be varying reasons why the people down below don't have enough resources. I've met enough people who became productive members of society whose parents used social programs, that I think the benefit outweighs the cost.  Yes, I can hear you now, "Then why don't you voluntarily pay for them?  I shouldn't have to be robbed at gunpoint!" to which I respond "Get over it, we're a society and everybody doesn't get their way, go live by yourself on an island and you can keep every coconut you pick." 

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2016, 12:39:02 PM »
Yeager,
I think you really bring up a bunch of good points. The one I particularly like is the fallacy of spending money on poverty. People think that spending money on poverty is a good thing without any consequences. People think that the more you spend, the better the situation will be. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have a terrific income, before I strived for early financial independence I would invest X dollars, spend Y dollars on basic necessities, and everything extra I would spend how ever I chose. Basically every extra dollar I had went back into the economy. It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process. I'm sure we can all agree that government is not efficient and will waste a good chunk of my extra taxes before it even hits the final recipients.

My question is, would that $8k be better served in the community or in the hands of government?  I think it is the former. Interestingly if everyone functioned like this, the government would still get pieces of that $8k anyways through sales tax, through income tax on the business owners who sell me those goods and services, and through the need of more employees to handle the increased demand.

Disclaimer: Today I spend a whole lot less as I am seeking financial independence earlier. My goal is to stop producing as soon as possible and cut my rediculous tax payments.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10880
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2016, 01:00:09 PM »
Quote
Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process. I'm sure we can all agree that government is not efficient and will waste a good chunk of my extra taxes before it even hits the final recipients.

My question is, would that $8k be better served in the community or in the hands of government?  I think it is the former. Interestingly if everyone functioned like this, the government would still get pieces of that $8k anyways through sales tax, through income tax on the business owners who sell me those goods and services, and through the need of more employees to handle the increased demand.

I wonder though...the ACA has also allowed other people to have insurance who were uninsurable before, or couldn't afford it.  The $8000 you aren't spending might be spent by those people now.

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2016, 01:09:22 PM »
It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process.

Except that that money IS STILL going towards businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved.  You're just mad it's costing you more personally (and that's fine, but no reason to try to disguise it), but the process is exactly the same.  It's still private business administering your health insurance.  Your argument holds no water.

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2016, 01:32:04 PM »
It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process.

Except that that money IS STILL going towards businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved.  You're just mad it's costing you more personally (and that's fine, but no reason to try to disguise it), but the process is exactly the same.  It's still private business administering your health insurance.  Your argument holds no water.

Nah, the point is that money is gong to non-productive activities. Private industry's profit motive places a higher value on profit, which serves consumer need, and reflects the public's needs and desires.

The ACA provided incentives that ignored the cost of capital and why we've seen emergency room visits increase under the ACA. If you take a long look at our healthcare system, the more government involvement there is, the more costly it's become. The more inefficiencies and perverse incentives you introduce, the worse the system has gotten. You need downward pressure on prices, eliminating the risk/reward structure, increasing competition, to control rising costs to produce a viable market.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2016, 01:33:07 PM »
Yeager,
I think you really bring up a bunch of good points. The one I particularly like is the fallacy of spending money on poverty. People think that spending money on poverty is a good thing without any consequences. People think that the more you spend, the better the situation will be. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have a terrific income, before I strived for early financial independence I would invest X dollars, spend Y dollars on basic necessities, and everything extra I would spend how ever I chose. Basically every extra dollar I had went back into the economy. It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process. I'm sure we can all agree that government is not efficient and will waste a good chunk of my extra taxes before it even hits the final recipients.

My question is, would that $8k be better served in the community or in the hands of government?  I think it is the former. Interestingly if everyone functioned like this, the government would still get pieces of that $8k anyways through sales tax, through income tax on the business owners who sell me those goods and services, and through the need of more employees to handle the increased demand.

Disclaimer: Today I spend a whole lot less as I am seeking financial independence earlier. My goal is to stop producing as soon as possible and cut my rediculous tax payments.

Of course there's waste in the government.  Then again, there's no business incentive to give someone with a pre-existing condition health insurance, or to give poor people food, clothes, or shelter.  Charity is a great thing, but if charity were enough the government programs wouldn't exist because they never would have been needed.

I'd bet you've met a few people who were given the opportunities to become successful with help from these programs.  They may not advertise it, but they do exist.

As to what the acceptable cost+waste vs return is on these things, that's an interesting discussion.  I will say that someone making a million dollars a year paying extra taxes doesn't really pass the sniff test for me as far as "too expensive!" 

Someone is getting a bit screwed no matter what, for what I see it's two options:

1.  The guy making $2 million/year only gets to keep $1.2 million.  He still has $1.2 million, but he did lose $800k.  That sucks.  A good bit of that $800k is wasted or goes to people who don't deserve it and will spend it on booze and cigarettes, that's frustrating as hell.  But he still makes $1.2 million a year.

2.  The guy who went to a crappy elementary school and had a single mom who is not well educated, and had to start working at McDonalds and Wendy's at age 16 to help his family pay for food.  He doesn't have any time to learn a trade or go to school because he's too busy surviving.  His upward prospects are approximately 0 without an education, and his chance for education is approximately 0 as long as he has to scrape by on two part time jobs that can fire him any time, for example if he has a health issue.   Or maybe it's someone who isn't super educated but had a bout with cancer while a child, and her parents' insurance covered her.  Now she's turning 26 and is off the parents plan, but hasn't been able to find a job that gives health insurance for any number of reasons.  If the cancer comes back she's dead.

Now, if I have to pick which of these two people gets "screwed" a little bit, I'm going with option 1.  Yeah, it's really frustrating to see someone on youtube bragging about their welfare while they have a Rolex watch and Prada purse.  It's MORE frustrating to see someone with great potential waste it because they never had a proper chance.



randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2016, 01:38:26 PM »
I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process. I'm sure we can all agree that government is not efficient and will waste a good chunk of my extra taxes before it even hits the final recipients.


Health costs have been rising for decades before the ACA. That's a fact. Now they're growing slower than they have in decades. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/03/us-health-spending-grows-at-lowest-rate/19830573/

It sucks that your costs have gone up, but we can't judge a program based on how it effects one person.

You start off with the premise that practically anything the government does is bad. So of course you assume anything the gov does is inefficient.

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2016, 01:39:05 PM »
Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before.

Bullshit.

An "increase by $8K every year" due to a law passed 6 years ago implies that you're paying $48K more in taxes now than you were in 2010 (before accounting for any changes in income). That is patently absurd; therefore, you are lying.

(Feel free to post appropriately-redacted 2009 and 2015 1040s to prove me wrong, if you can. I won't hold my breath.)

Eric

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4057
  • Location: On my bike
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2016, 01:44:12 PM »
It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process.

Except that that money IS STILL going towards businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved.  You're just mad it's costing you more personally (and that's fine, but no reason to try to disguise it), but the process is exactly the same.  It's still private business administering your health insurance.  Your argument holds no water.

Nah, the point is that money is gong to non-productive activities. Private industry's profit motive places a higher value on profit, which serves consumer need, and reflects the public's needs and desires.

The ACA provided incentives that ignored the cost of capital and why we've seen emergency room visits increase under the ACA. If you take a long look at our healthcare system, the more government involvement there is, the more costly it's become. The more inefficiencies and perverse incentives you introduce, the worse the system has gotten. You need downward pressure on prices, eliminating the risk/reward structure, increasing competition, to control rising costs to produce a viable market.

And yet if you look at every other developed country in the world with socialized medicine, they spend less money per person with better results.  So clearly it's not just a simple more government = bad, less government = good thing, as much as you'd like to make it one to match your personal ideology.

Your statement is also one of extreme health privilege, as even if the ACA costs more, the fact that it allows everyone to attain health coverage is worth it.  Prior, there were millions of people who were not able to buy coverage at any price.

So in order to keep the American Dream alive, I'd think being able to get health coverage, even if expensive, is a main part of it.

ooeei

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1142
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2016, 01:44:44 PM »
It provided money to flow through the different businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved. Then the Affordable care act came around. I found my tax burden to increase by $8K every year not to mention the thousands extra I now pay for health insurance which is worse than before. Now instead of spending it in the community it gets trickled through the government process.

Except that that money IS STILL going towards businesses and their employees increasing the wealth of everyone involved.  You're just mad it's costing you more personally (and that's fine, but no reason to try to disguise it), but the process is exactly the same.  It's still private business administering your health insurance.  Your argument holds no water.

Nah, the point is that money is gong to non-productive activities. Private industry's profit motive places a higher value on profit, which serves consumer need, and reflects the public's needs and desires.

The ACA provided incentives that ignored the cost of capital and why we've seen emergency room visits increase under the ACA. If you take a long look at our healthcare system, the more government involvement there is, the more costly it's become. The more inefficiencies and perverse incentives you introduce, the worse the system has gotten. You need downward pressure on prices, eliminating the risk/reward structure, increasing competition, to control rising costs to produce a viable market.

There is no free market in healthcare, as it's often an emergency situation where you can't shop around.  The idea that capitalism will regulate the price of something you don't get to choose doesn't make sense.  It's like saying private fire departments would be cheaper than public ones.  I believe there was some guy in England a few centuries back who made a fortune running a private fire department.

"My house is burning down, quick come help me!"

Fire truck arrives and puts out the fire:  "That'll cost $50,000"

"What, that's crazy, I'm not paying that"

"Here's your itemized bill (a list 1000 items long of things that they can't even explain to you), that's what it costs.  Next time you can call a different fire department.  If you don't pay we'll send it to collections and tank your credit."

A big difference is healthcare can be well into the hundreds of thousands dollar range.

Now I guess you could have everyone buy fire insurance, and let the insurance companies pick which fire departments to use.  I sure hope the fire department closest to you takes your insurance though, be sure to confirm weekly as these things change all the time.  And keep in mind they might take one insurance plan with your company but not another plan.  Also different firemen take different insurance, even though they work in the same place.  If one that doesn't take your insurance helps put out the fire you're going to have to pay him separately.  And I hope they used the hoses that your insurance approved, the premium for using unapproved hoses falls outside of what insurance will cover.  And heaven help you if you can't afford the insurance due to some sort of pre-existing condition like having kids or sleepwalking.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:48:17 PM by ooeei »

Jack

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4725
  • Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2016, 01:54:15 PM »
It's like saying private fire departments would be cheaper than public ones.  I believe there was some guy in England a few centuries back who made a fortune running a private fire department.

"My house is burning down, quick come help me!"

Fire truck arrives and puts out the fire:  "That'll cost $50,000"

"What, that's crazy, I'm not paying that"

"Here's your itemized bill (a list 1000 items long of things that they can't even explain to you), that's what it costs.  Next time you can call a different fire department.  If you don't pay we'll send it to collections and tank your credit."

Nah, that goes back to the first (known) fire brigade in history:

The first Roman fire brigade of which we have any substantial history was created by Marcus Licinius Crassus. Marcus Licinius Crassus was born into a wealthy Roman family around the year 115 BC, and acquired an enormous fortune through (in the words of Plutarch) "fire and rapine." One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade—500 men strong—which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value.

I wouldn't be surprised if assholes like Yaeger admire Crassus. After all, the fact that slaves in Rome didn't simply hire their own 500-man fire brigades to pull themselves up by their bootstraps was their own damn fault, right?

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2016, 01:58:23 PM »
And yet if you look at every other developed country in the world with socialized medicine, they spend less money per person with better results.  So clearly it's not just a simple more government = bad, less government = good thing, as much as you'd like to make it one to match your personal ideology.

Your statement is also one of extreme health privilege, as even if the ACA costs more, the fact that it allows everyone to attain health coverage is worth it.  Prior, there were millions of people who were not able to buy coverage at any price.

So in order to keep the American Dream alive, I'd think being able to get health coverage, even if expensive, is a main part of it.

No, it's a transfer of costs. Their governments interacts differently with the private market. In Canada, for instance, private for-profit clinics are still highly demanded because they deliver better care, cheaper, and more effectively than the public clinics. Essentially the government is enabling a healthcare system that provides poorer service at the expense of more taxpayer dollars. They're wasting public money because they think the service is morally acceptable. You can argue all you want, government is not and has NEVER been more efficient at spending your money than you are.

In respect to the American dream, having a 'free', expensive healthcare system just reduces opportunity elsewhere. If you're fine with that, okay, but stop complaining about unemployment, wealth inequality, poverty, and other social economic problems that overpaying for basic services contributes to.

Yaeger

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 758
  • Age: 41
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2016, 02:01:18 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised if assholes like Yaeger admire Crassus. After all, the fact that slaves in Rome didn't simply hire their own 500-man fire brigades to pull themselves up by their bootstraps was their own damn fault, right?

Wow, that's uncalled for. If this conversation upsets you enough to call me an asshole, maybe you need to step out.

And there's a difference between a public good helping everyone equally, supported by everyone equally, and specific programs tailored take from a portion of the populace and redistribute it to another based on popular vote.

MoneyCat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1752
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2016, 02:08:14 PM »
I grew up in poverty and now I am middle class. The American Dream is alive and well. Thank you very much. I have no idea where all the ridiculousness came from that the average American is supposed to have a $400 watch and a $45,000 car and a six bedroom house with an $800,000 mortgage. Dumbasses.

Mmm_Donuts

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
Re: More Main Stream Media...The American Dream Is Too Expensive
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2016, 02:14:31 PM »
In Canada, for instance, private for-profit clinics are still highly demanded because they deliver better care, cheaper, and more effectively than the public clinics.

As a Canadian, I'll take our health care system any day over the overpriced, bankruptcy-inducing programs you have in the US. Anecdotally, I know zero people who would pay for private health care here. Our public system works just fine in most cases.