Author Topic: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents  (Read 29195 times)

LiveLean

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2014, 10:55:52 AM »
My wife and I have had this discussion about her folks, who lived large and figured they'd sell company he owned and continue to live large in retirement. Instead, Internet killed his industry, company went bankrupt and they lost everything, including huge house they never paid off with all of the massive income. They're only 67 and 68. Thank God for social security and my father-in-law's handyman skills; he's able to stay very busy in my sister-in-law's mcmansion neighborhood doing ridiculous projects (built-in-bunkbeds, third-floor screen porches, anyone?).

Before things were solved, such as they are, my wife and sister-in-law had a discussion about what to do with mom and dad, who moved (from out of state) to within five minutes of sister-in-law, who despite 5K square foot home had no intention of taking them in. We have much smaller home in another state and were willing to take them in.

I contrast this with my longtime-widowed father, 76, who has made it abundantly clear that he's to have round-the-clock at-home nursing care in his home should it ever come to that. And even with that huge expense, he's lived a model MMM life and will be able to afford it indefinitely.

gatorNic

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2014, 11:05:40 AM »
Right, but if you follow Skyhigh's posts and kind of try to ignore the others...  he's trying to help his parents by providing information on social programs which exist for just this kind of thing, and he's being rejected.

Family is important, but when family refuses to help themselves out of pride, it would be extremely difficult to not feel resentful.  I think it's totally reasonable to say "if you take advantage of these programs, I'll help fill in the gaps."

Agreed.  Especially when their pride would essentially be jeopardizing their grandkid's futures.  If there are things they can do to still help themselves then they should do it, end of story

crispy

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2014, 11:35:52 AM »
For me, it is simple.  Family is important.  End of story.

If you don't take care of your parents, who do you think will take care of you?  What type of example are you setting for your own kids?

I am amazed an appalled by the callous attitudes posted in this thread.

Not all families are created equal.  Many people have toxic families (myself included). I could write a book about it, but suffice it to say that the needs of my husband, children, and myself will always come before the needs of my extended family.  Sometimes it's not callousness, but self-preservation. 

irishbear99

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2014, 11:52:42 AM »
For me, it is simple.  Family is important.  End of story.

If you don't take care of your parents, who do you think will take care of you?  What type of example are you setting for your own kids?

I am amazed an appalled by the callous attitudes posted in this thread.

Not all families are created equal.  Many people have toxic families (myself included). I could write a book about it, but suffice it to say that the needs of my husband, children, and myself will always come before the needs of my extended family.  Sometimes it's not callousness, but self-preservation.

+1

Children are not a retirement plan.

MrFancypants

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2014, 12:00:58 PM »
Right, but if you follow Skyhigh's posts and kind of try to ignore the others...  he's trying to help his parents by providing information on social programs which exist for just this kind of thing, and he's being rejected.

Family is important, but when family refuses to help themselves out of pride, it would be extremely difficult to not feel resentful.  I think it's totally reasonable to say "if you take advantage of these programs, I'll help fill in the gaps."

Agreed.  Especially when their pride would essentially be jeopardizing their grandkid's futures.  If there are things they can do to still help themselves then they should do it, end of story

The whole situation seems ridiculous to me.  I'm all on board the "family first" train and I'll sacrifice to help.  But what do you do when your mother expresses desire to live with you and she got the idea from a family drama that was aired in the '70's?  Then you learn that the desire to move in with you may also be coming from some twisted sense of enhanced social status?

If my parents said those things to me I'd try to resolve it exactly how Skyhigh is.  I might even be more blunt about it, saying that how much assistance they get from me depends upon them taking advantage of these social programs.

As much as I want my parents to be comfortable and happy, at that point in my life I'll have a wife and kids that have to be taken care of as well.  If your resources aren't unlimited these are tough decisions to have to make.

SU

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2014, 12:08:45 PM »
We had some interesting experiences with my Grandmother's medical care. When my Mum looked into it, her mother was on this infinite loop of medications for conditions and then medications for the side effects of the first round of medications and then more medications to protect against the potential complications arising from the long term use of the first two rounds of prescriptions. It was insane - more than 15 pills per day for a woman in her 70s, and a doctor who seemed to have no concept of quality of life, or was at the very least indifferent to Mum's attempts to discuss with him 'a long life in a doped out haze' v 'dignified end of life experience'.

Eventually we found a doctor who had a very different approach, dropped most or all of the medications and was happy to discuss my Grandmother's care with my Mum. As a result, my Grandmother's quality of life improved, and her medical costs plummeted.

I'm not advocating withholding necessary care, but based on our experience I do think it's worth finding a doctor who has a thoughtful and informed approach to elder care and a light hand with the prescription pad. I also wonder if sometimes wanting medical attention might be as much about wanting attention as needing a medical opinion - in which case a community group might serve as well or better.

Katy Butler has written great stuff on the topic of medical care in retirement, for example:
http://katybutler.com/site/knocking-on-heavens-door/

http://katybutler.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/What-Broke-My-Father%E2%80%99s-Heart-KB-NYTimes.pdf

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2014, 12:15:13 PM »
I'm worried about this in the future too. I expect most of the burden to land on me. My brothers may help out, but I'm pretty sure it'll be mostly me to solve the problems/provide the living.

I would offer help. Even if their situation is entirely of their making, they did raise you when there was nothing to gain (financially) from it. I consider it a payback.

However, you could stipulate some of that help on them making some (not all--you're not the God of their finances) of the changes that will help them the most.

Cassie

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2014, 12:55:51 PM »
My parents (WW II generation) were frugal & planned for their retirement. Due to my Mom living to just short of 90 she had only ss & a small pension to live on & never once asked any of her kids for $.  Sometimes we would take her on a nice trip for a gift etc because she would not take $. She never wanted to live with any of us.  She loved her independence, own place, etc.  She sold the home & the proceeds helped pay her rent on an apartment for many years. They were great parents & I admire her attitude.  I am a boomer & I would never expect my kids to support me.  It is horrible for marriages to have a parent living with you even if they are wonderful people.  You need privacy to have a strong marriage.   YOur Mom is choosing to put her head in the sand & is expecting you & your brother to rescue them. I would make it clear now that this will not happen.  Either selling the home or getting a reverse mortgage versus losing it seems like the smart thing to do but again you can't force them to do anything. I feel sorry for you!

partgypsy

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2014, 01:05:07 PM »
Sorry to threadjack, but what are pple's advice for me? I am married with 2 children (also dog, cat, some tank animals) in a 1400 sq 3 bedroom house (kids used to bunk together, but as of this month moved pre-teen into own room yay!).
My parents are divorced. My father is not great, but OK. he does receive 1400 in social sec and lives simply (rents a bare bone apartment).
My mother got the big surburban house for divorce, refused to move, became semi hoarder and is there literally 24 years later. She retired this summer, from a part time job paying 14K? a year, and receives 550 a month social security.
For probably the last 10 years, she has been living off heloc money and also from cashing her small work-related pension, which are both maxed out/gone. As those didn't cover her expensese, she has both has a ton of deferred maintenaince on house (and really decreased value of house), and no money to pay the heloc balance. Every year the house becomes more unsafe and also she owes more money, to the point she was talking about not paying her property taxes. She still has a bunch of equity, should be able to recoup at least 200K if not more once it's all said and done. 
Problem is, my deadbeat brother moved in 19? years ago. Also 4? years ago my irratically employed sister.

If she could sell the house, and downsize, either to an apartment or a small house and stretch out her money as long as possible she would probably have another 5, 7 years. Maybe she can even work part-time to supplement. However she is doing nothing. Literally staying home, watching movies or playing computer games since retiring, because she a) doesn't want to deal/face with moving/selling and b) can't say no to deadbeat son. She says things like, she could not live in an apartment/townhome because (oldest brother) couldn't play drums, or is too loud to have shared walls. Neither child who lives with them materially contributes.

Hopefully she will have a realization and sell and save herself. But more likely she will do nothing till the point she loses both her house and all equity. What is my responsibility? I'm really referring to my mother, and also my sister (I don't really care what happens to my brother).

My mother jokes if she can move in, or why don't I either buy a house for her, or buy a bigger house to move in. But a large part of her financial ruin was her own neglect and also her codependent relationship with my brother, whom I cannot stand.
Right now there seems to be no solution. Either I will cave and have 1 or more live with me and be misreable/break up my marriage, or will be guilt-ridden for the rest of my life for not taking care of my parent.

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2014, 01:22:22 PM »
Sorry to threadjack, but what are pple's advice for me? I am married with 2 children (also dog, cat, some tank animals) in a 1400 sq 3 bedroom house (kids used to bunk together, but as of this month moved pre-teen into own room yay!).
My parents are divorced. My father is not great, but OK. he does receive 1400 in social sec and lives simply (rents a bare bone apartment).
My mother got the big surburban house for divorce, refused to move, became semi hoarder and is there literally 24 years later. She retired this summer, from a part time job paying 14K? a year, and receives 550 a month social security.
For probably the last 10 years, she has been living off heloc money and also from cashing her small work-related pension, which are both maxed out/gone. As those didn't cover her expensese, she has both has a ton of deferred maintenaince on house (and really decreased value of house), and no money to pay the heloc balance. Every year the house becomes more unsafe and also she owes more money, to the point she was talking about not paying her property taxes. She still has a bunch of equity, should be able to recoup at least 200K if not more once it's all said and done. 
Problem is, my deadbeat brother moved in 19? years ago. Also 4? years ago my irratically employed sister.

If she could sell the house, and downsize, either to an apartment or a small house and stretch out her money as long as possible she would probably have another 5, 7 years. Maybe she can even work part-time to supplement. However she is doing nothing. Literally staying home, watching movies or playing computer games since retiring, because she a) doesn't want to deal/face with moving/selling and b) can't say no to deadbeat son. She says things like, she could not live in an apartment/townhome because (oldest brother) couldn't play drums, or is too loud to have shared walls. Neither child who lives with them materially contributes.

Hopefully she will have a realization and sell and save herself. But more likely she will do nothing till the point she loses both her house and all equity. What is my responsibility? I'm really referring to my mother, and also my sister (I don't really care what happens to my brother).

My mother jokes if she can move in, or why don't I either buy a house for her, or buy a bigger house to move in. But a large part of her financial ruin was her own neglect and also her codependent relationship with my brother, whom I cannot stand.
Right now there seems to be no solution. Either I will cave and have 1 or more live with me and be misreable/break up my marriage, or will be guilt-ridden for the rest of my life for not taking care of my parent.

I hate to recommend it, but a reverse mortgage may be an option for her. It would give her money and she wouldn't be forced to move. I also have to say that you aren't responsible for your mom's bad decisions or enabling behavior.  She chose to supplement your brother to her own detriment and that is not your responsibility.

partgypsy

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2014, 01:29:01 PM »
The problem is, that her property taxes alone are 7K a year. She wants to do this. I looked into it, and you can only borrow a certain percentage of her equity (she would lose say 20% of equity). Sure she doesn't have to deal with paying the reverse mortage, but due to lack of upkeep, previous heloc and also high property taxes, even doing that, it would only give her a few more years before she again could not afford to live there (I'm assuming you can't indefinitely postpone paying property taxes?). With the added bonus of when she did sell the house, she would have no money.

crispy

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2014, 01:44:41 PM »
The problem is, that her property taxes alone are 7K a year. She wants to do this. I looked into it, and you can only borrow a certain percentage of her equity (she would lose say 20% of equity). Sure she doesn't have to deal with paying the reverse mortage, but due to lack of upkeep, previous heloc and also high property taxes, even doing that, it would only give her a few more years before she again could not afford to live there (I'm assuming you can't indefinitely postpone paying property taxes?). With the added bonus of when she did sell the house, she would have no money.

Yeah, that definitely wouldn't be an option then. 

I still have to say that you don't have to make this your problem.  My own rule is that I can't care about someone's situation more than they do.  Your mom, your brother, and your sister are all adults who are making choices, and it is not your responsibility to solve their problems for them. 

deborah

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2014, 02:04:16 PM »
In Australia, often the elderly can indefinitely defer paying property taxes - speak to the people concerned - you may be able to.

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2014, 04:23:32 PM »
+1

OP's original position sounded halfway reasonable, but rather hard-hearted. The more it is explained, the less reasonable and more callus it sounds.

I agree. I'm worried about my mother's financial decisions, but she's provided a lot of financial help when I've been dumb in the past. It would be rather heartless of me to tell her later, "You made your bed, so sleep in it."

Me helping her out later will be karma. It doesn't mean I'll give her $1,000 a month to blow on crafts and yard sale crap, but I'll make sure she has a roof, food, and all the necessities, just like she did for me growing up.

pumpkinlantern

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2014, 04:57:12 PM »
They have frugal choices that they could make to salvage some of their resources but they refuse. My guess is that they are too embarassed. Between the two of us my brother and I have 9 young children to care for.

I believe it's important to help out your parents.  Family is important.  I don't think you should let your parents starve or be homeless.  However, helping them out does not mean allowing them to financially ruin you or your children's future.

They are entitled to do whatever they want with the rest of their small amount of money, but after that they have zero independence.  That means if they want help from you, they can only have it under your terms.  If it's not their money, then they do not have the right to choose how to spend it.  That means, you decide where/how they live, how much they spend on food/clothing/etc.  You dictate the frugal choices they make.  You should not give cash gifts.  They can't have their cake and eat it too.

You should tell have a frank conversation with them right now.  Tell them that right now you are willing to help them with making some frugal choices so they can stay independent longer.  If they are unwilling to do this now, then you will help them when they are destitute, but it will be under your terms and it will not be the luxury lifestyle they want.  It will likely involve government assistant, social housing, and a very frugal household budget.  I think you need to be clear that although you will support them when they hit rock bottom, you will not be there to bail them out and enable them to continue their financially irresponsible lifestyle.  And let them see for themselves that they are better off being a little more frugal now than the "embarrassment" of government assistance/social housing in the future.

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 05:19:00 PM »
Parents were able to decide (in large part) what kind of family a child had. They knew their current economic situation, their temperaments, etc.

A child had (virtually) NO choice in what kind of family he/she was brought up in.

How is it fair to tell a child "Well, we knew we were dirt poor and couldn't afford retirement; that's why we had you!" and hold that child to some moral code?

Sure, without our parents, we wouldn't exist. Still, the parents had a choice, we had none.

So I think that it's the parents responsibility to raise their child. Once the child is grown up, all he/she owes their parents are the memories made while they were a child.

Yes, it might be a bit heartless to turn your back on a loving mother who nurtured you for 18-20-35 years. My guess, if the parents were really so nice and wonderful, their child will WANT to help out when they can. If the parents did less than the minimum and viewed their kids as an easy retirement, I can only hope the kids put in as much "effort" as the parents did.

Anytime a family member tries to use the "you owe me" or some other guilt-trip tactic, I make it VERY plain that it's not going to work, in fact it'll have the opposite effect. It strains (or completely breaks) relationships with some people, but surprisingly it helps with others. There's been more than one person that others find hard to get along with because of all the complaining and guilt-tripping; they know it doesn't work on me, so they don't bother.

Artemis67

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2014, 11:39:02 PM »
[...]

Hopefully she will have a realization and sell and save herself. But more likely she will do nothing till the point she loses both her house and all equity.

Sadly, I think you're right. She's chosen to neglect some very basic responsibilities, and there have already been consequences for that, but she keeps on as always. It will probably take a major crisis before she decides she needs to change--and that's assuming she ever will.

Quote
What is my responsibility? I'm really referring to my mother, and also my sister (I don't really care what happens to my brother).

Your primary responsibility (at least to my mind) is to your children. And part of that responsibility to them is also seeing to it that you and your wife continue to have a happy, stable marriage--they deserve a two-parent home. If allowing your mother to move in with you puts your marriage at risk, then I'd say no, because your children's interests should trump hers.

Your mother didn't have to end up dependent upon you--as an adult, she's had plenty of options--but she's willfully maneuvering into that position of dependency through her own negligence. Your children, however, are wholly dependent upon you and have no choice in that matter. They have no control over the situation, and depend upon you to act in their best interests.

I never had kids of my own, but I'm always going to come down on the side of kids in these situations because they're the underdogs, with no power. That's just how I roll.

Quote
My mother jokes if she can move in, or why don't I either buy a house for her, or buy a bigger house to move in.

To which I would say, "But you already have a house, Mom; why do I need to buy one for you?" But then again, my mom raised me to take responsibility for my own shit and not demand that family members sacrifice themselves to save me from my own willful incompetence be a meaniepants.

Quote
But a large part of her financial ruin was her own neglect and also her codependent relationship with my brother, whom I cannot stand.

Her neglectfulness is an important factor to consider. She had plenty of chances to create a comfortable life for herself in retirement, and she blew them all. She's still blowing it, even as her situation becomes more and more dire. She's counting on you to save her, whether you want to or not, and whether doing so causes hardship for you, your marriage and your kids. And she probably hasn't given any thought to how you and your family will be affected by that, because if she did she wouldn't be in this situation.

Also, if she moves in with you, your shiftless siblings will still be in the picture. Sure, you could try banishing your brother from your house, but honestly--do you imagine that actually working? Where's he going to go? Where's your sister going to go? What's going to happen when one or both of them have nowhere to go and your mother starts telling you how horrible you are for not letting them stay at your house? 

If your mother is as enmeshed with your brother as you say she is, there will be no getting rid of him. He'll always be around, and she'll always have an excuse for why. Is that what you want to live with?

And your sister needs to get her act together and stop being "erratically employed." It sounds like she's the one you're closest to, so maybe it's time to have a come-to-Jesus talk with her on that subject. Otherwise, are you going to keep rescuing her from her own ineptitude, along with your mom?

Quote
Right now there seems to be no solution.

Well, there is--but there are going to be hellishly negative consequences no matter what you decide, and it's a matter of choosing which ones you can live with.

Let's assume she's going to lose the house at some point in the next five years. She has a pittance of an income. Where is she going to move? What emergency and long-term housing is available for low-income seniors? What does she have to do to get into it? Knowing in advance that she's going to be homeless, it might be extremely helpful to start looking into various programs and services available to seniors who end up there. The time to learn about what's available is now--not when the bottom drops out. And the next time she coyly hints at how you'll save her by buying her a house, hand her a packet of information with an application.

As with Skyhigh's parents, she may be too prideful to apply for them, and demand that you cater to her ego by providing private welfare instead. But if you already know what is available to her, you might find it a lot easier (psychologically) to say no to that, and make accepting government assistance a requirement for further help from you. At that point, if she ends up living in her car rather than go on any form of social welfare, it will be a voluntary, conscious choice. And let her make it--don't be manipulated into caving in.

If she does decide to take advantage of the available resources, there's no reason you couldn't supplement her SSI check with a small monthly allowance, if you wish. You can still assist her in a lot of ways--without sacrificing the peace, happiness, and financial best interests of your wife and kids.

Quote
Either I will cave and have 1 or more live with me and be misreable/break up my marriage, or will be guilt-ridden for the rest of my life for not taking care of my parent.

Why would you feel guilt-ridden? She hasn't bothered to take care of herself, after all. Seriously, she's had all kinds of chances to make more money, save for retirement, take proper care of her house, stay out of debt--all the stuff responsible adult humans do every single day. Instead, she's made one childishly short-sighted, self-centered decision after another, and somehow you're obligated to step in and save her from herself, at huge cost to yourself and your family?

Look--wanting to take care of an aging parent, and make sure they are safe and comfortable, is normal. So is feeling an obligation to do so, even when you have a difficult relationship with them.

But your mom is, ultimately, just another adult human being, like you. She's legally competent, still has resources at her disposal, and is free to live exactly as she pleases--and deal with the inevitable consequences. You didn't egg her on and tell her it was totally okay to live as she has; you didn't prevent her from working more, or demand that she fill her house with useless crap, or forbid her from maintaining the house. You didn't steal her property tax money, or tell her not to bother with saving for retirement. She got statements from the Social Security Administration telling her how tiny her SS checks would be even before she retired, and yet she still didn't clean up her act.

There are some worthwhile things to feel guilty over. Refusing to insulate another adult, at great personal and financial cost, from the consequences of their own willfully bad decision-making, is not one of them. Not even when it's your mother. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 11:45:32 PM by Artemis67 »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2014, 05:12:45 AM »
I too am very surprised by how many people would let their parents move in. I get on well with mine only now that I do not live with them. I would feel an obligation to make sure their basic needs were met but this does not mean they can live with me (and it will be me, not my brother). Thankfully they are in fairly good shape financially (spend more than I would but have much more than I do) so they are unlikely to end up actually destitute. If they did and I were in the position to do so, I would rent them a studio flat (or buy one and let them live in it) and either buy them food or give them supermarket gift cards, and then make my brother contribute some money (though I'd do all the admin). I'd make it close enough to visit every week but not right next door. I'll admit, however, that if their health started failing it would be a different kettle of fish. My mother's side in particular is very long-lived and I couldn't see myself providing major care for them while working (or wanting to if not - see that thing about getting on well while not living with them...) Though I would be happy to arrange care/help as much as I could.

My grandmother, on the other hand, is in her late eighties and getting less mobile (although mostly all there). She lives five hours away by train and the point will come when she needs help. My husband and I have discussed this quietly between us and have agreed that if we have the space, we would be happy to have her live with is for a few years as a transition to a care home or similar. It must be a generational thing in my family - I think she and my mother would go nuts if they lived together, much like me and my mother. I also know that my grandmother would insist on paying her way in our house.

Edit: I do feel more obligation towards my parents because I lived with them during holidays at university and for two years after I graduated while doing a second degree locally. However, that is an obligation to care and assist - not to let them move in! Believe me, it's better for everyone that way.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 05:22:13 AM by shelivesthedream »

MoneyCat

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2014, 06:12:01 AM »
What kind of relationship do you have with your parents?  My parents will be in a similar situation and they have already started hinting that they want to move in with me.  However, they were abusive toward me as a child and stole from me as a young adult, so I feel no urge to help them.  It really depends on how close you are to your parents.

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2014, 09:30:48 AM »


I can't find the other person I want to quote, but they basically said your parents choose to have you knowing their financial situation etc, so since you didn't ASK to be born then you don't owe them anything later. (Summary.) And I understand the point of view. Still comes across as a little heartless to me, but I agree it's unfair for parents to be completely irresponsible in their later years and expect their children to "pay them back" by caring for them.

I think a responsible parent should take the best care of themselves for as long as they can, but unless they die rather quickly either due to accident or illness, eventually their faculties will start shutting down. I think it's at this point that it's fair to hope your children would take care of you the most: when you are almost like a toddler/infant and need the most help.

I also like what pumpkinlantern had to say:


They are entitled to do whatever they want with the rest of their small amount of money, but after that they have zero independence.  That means if they want help from you, they can only have it under your terms.  If it's not their money, then they do not have the right to choose how to spend it.  That means, you decide where/how they live, how much they spend on food/clothing/etc.  You dictate the frugal choices they make.  You should not give cash gifts.  They can't have their cake and eat it too.

I think this is basically how the parent/child relationship starts. Kids are provided everything, but contribute almost nothing, so everything is on the parent's terms. Fast forward several decades and now the roles are reversed. If you're completely dependent on your kids, then it's fair for it to be on their terms.

retired?

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2014, 09:38:32 AM »
I understand that mental issues can cause poor decision making. My parents have been retired for over 30 years now. Their poor decisions pattern started long before. Even if they were proven that they had a medical condition that caused their situation should that change my position? Two aging people with failing health can sink even the most ardent financial plans. My brother and I have small children to care for our plates are full. Besides that we have in laws that would be expecting a retirement package as well.

Skyhigh

You could at least take some time to make some calls/send some letters and try to find out if there's any government assistance that applies to them. It's a bad situation all around, but that shouldn't mean you just leave them to possible suffering when there may be help available that they can't find themselves due to whatever reason.

Two points that would make it very hard for me to help if I were in this situation (aside from you not really being in a position to help much financially) a) they've been retired 30 years.....didn't they see this coming?  I'd hate to finance the later years of someone who retired so young and b) as you state, they are unwilling to change.  It is really a poor attitude to expect others to help when one is unwilling to make changes.

That said, I'd stick to helping in non-financial ways with information and putting their own finances in a better situation.

On the flip side - how long does one pay for an adult child that is unwilling to work (equivalent to your parents unwilling to make changes)?

At its core, the lack of individual responsibility (and its expectation) will be an increasing drag on the U.S.

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2014, 09:58:38 AM »
What kind of relationship do you have with your parents?  My parents will be in a similar situation and they have already started hinting that they want to move in with me.  However, they were abusive toward me as a child and stole from me as a young adult, so I feel no urge to help them.  It really depends on how close you are to your parents.

I think this is important. I've always considered my father to be wise and independent and a hard worker. I'd be willing to let him live with my family because I think he would be a great contributor to my household. He would keep things clean, fix things, cook, play with grandchildren but also be firm, support us in wise financial choices, counsel against unwise ones (without imposing too much), and probably encourage me to work out arguments with my spouse instead of automatically taking my side. Moving in with me would probably be one of the last things he'd resort to though. [Funny how that works.]

My mom is a different story. My brother and I separately and around the same time did some research and came to the conclusion that she is a narcissist. Growing up with her was tough. Her mind operates in completely different spheres as far as what's appropriate behavior for herself vs what's appropriate for everyone else. Her perception of reality is often greatly skewed. If you met her before meeting my dad you would genuinely believe he's a racist, misogynistic, selfish, authoritarian dictator of a husband. And of course, she's a sweet lil' lady who'd never hurt a fly. She'll tell you he threw her out of the house with my youngest brother (11 at the time) when she was still recovering from a recent surgery. She's even told me that and every time she tries to go there with me I tell her, "Mom, I was there. YOU left HIM, and refused to stay when HE said you should at least stay until you're fully recovered!" She also liked to tell my youngest brother that my dad didn't want him/love him [not true!] because my dad didn't want anymore children after the first two [true--but BIG difference between not wanting future children vs not wanting a child that's already there now!]

It's because of things like that that my mother would NOT be welcome to live in my house (or even in an in-law suite, or next door or on my street, etc) if I have children. I'd be too worried about her manipulating them to like her more by undermining their relationship with me. BUT I feel she was and is the best mother she is capable of being along with her delusions, and she did the best she could. I will absolutely still care for her as I'm able to by making sure she has a roof over her head (in her hometown, not where I'm living at) and other care as needed. But on my terms.

partgypsy

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2014, 11:04:57 AM »
thank you for your words. People who know me (this has been going on for years) have told me the exact same thing, that my responsibility is towards my children and marriage first, and not to get caught up and worked up with the drama. I love my little house and it gives me peace of mind not to have a big mortgage, which is probably what would happen if I moved to accommodate my mother or sister. But it literally gives me a bad feeling in my stomach seeing how she lives (the house looks like a crackhouse at this point) and where they will end up. Have actually had conversations with father and my lil brother about it, and they basically think unless she is physically moved from the house, she is not going to do anything and a foreclosure is a foregone conclusion, regardless if it is 1 or 3 years from now. I guess I am angry, because maybe except for the last couple years because of this house she had, she had more net worth than anyone else in this family. Rather than taking advantage of it and making her life secure (houses on her culdesack have sold for 600K) she basically squandered it in the worst way possible (letting my brother trash it, no maintenance).
Probably the best thing, is for my mother to get counseling, and get a clearer picture. Her relationship with my older brother is the worse example of codependence I've ever seen.
But I can't force her to do anything.
As far as my sister, I am close with her. Her mental state has deteriorated since she has moved in there, with a similar sense of entitlement/someone will bail me out at the last minute magical thinking. Her feeling, as older brother was basically supported and bailed out for multiple years, that it is her turn (unfortunately, all the money has been spent). And there is history, where I don't think it would be a good idea if we lived together, as we have different ideas about all that. 
I do think it is a good idea for me to do research on what assistance there is for distressed seniors and forward it to Mom, maybe that will give her a wake up call.


tracylayton

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2014, 12:27:50 PM »
I have been surprised by how many people are in the same situation (having parents that need financial help). I will make a point to really appreciate how financially responsible both of parents and their spouses are. They are not wealthy, but always planned for retirement. I am sure that my sisters and I will be driving them to doctor's appointments, etc. but I don't think they will ever require monetary help. I never realized how fortunate we are.

deborah

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2014, 12:44:53 PM »
The problem is that your parents can have enough to see them through, then a major health drama happens, and they suddenly don't. Or they don't understand things as much, and put all their money into term deposits, so they gradually go backwards even though they should have enough. Or they need some form of care, and that eats away at their savings REALLY quickly.

There are very few elderly people who don't have one of these three things happen.

tracylayton

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #75 on: December 20, 2014, 01:26:42 PM »
The problem is that your parents can have enough to see them through, then a major health drama happens, and they suddenly don't. Or they don't understand things as much, and put all their money into term deposits, so they gradually go backwards even though they should have enough. Or they need some form of care, and that eats away at their savings REALLY quickly.

There are very few elderly people who don't have one of these three things happen.


You make a great point. If my parents do need help, at least it won't be because they were irresponsible. That makes it a little easier to deal with.

Abe

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #76 on: December 20, 2014, 01:28:26 PM »
I knew my parents are not good at saving for retirement, so I convinced them to let me manage their retirement accounts some time ago. Now, between their pensions and retirement savings they will be fine. Would I let them manage the accounts when they actually start withdrawing? Probably not because my father would blow it on expensive jewelry for relatives instead of useful things. They are very smart otherwise, but just can't deal with money well. This arrangement may work well for the more financially well-read among us who have parents at risk of a tough retirement.

Skyhigh

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #77 on: December 21, 2014, 10:05:11 AM »
I understand that mental issues can cause poor decision making. My parents have been retired for over 30 years now. Their poor decisions pattern started long before. Even if they were proven that they had a medical condition that caused their situation should that change my position? Two aging people with failing health can sink even the most ardent financial plans. My brother and I have small children to care for our plates are full. Besides that we have in laws that would be expecting a retirement package as well.

Skyhigh

You could at least take some time to make some calls/send some letters and try to find out if there's any government assistance that applies to them. It's a bad situation all around, but that shouldn't mean you just leave them to possible suffering when there may be help available that they can't find themselves due to whatever reason.

Two points that would make it very hard for me to help if I were in this situation (aside from you not really being in a position to help much financially) a) they've been retired 30 years.....didn't they see this coming?  I'd hate to finance the later years of someone who retired so young and b) as you state, they are unwilling to change.  It is really a poor attitude to expect others to help when one is unwilling to make changes.

That said, I'd stick to helping in non-financial ways with information and putting their own finances in a better situation.

On the flip side - how long does one pay for an adult child that is unwilling to work (equivalent to your parents unwilling to make changes)?

At its core, the lack of individual responsibility (and its expectation) will be an increasing drag on the U.S.

Children is the other side of the coin. My brother has built a small cottage on his property for this purpose. His belief is that the next generation will have unusually hard times moving forward. If one of his kids fall on hard times they can live in the cottage. However if another kid falls on hard times then they have to make room.

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #78 on: December 21, 2014, 10:16:45 AM »
Immediate family (spouse & crotchfruit) first.  Parents secondary.  What righteous grandparent would want to put their well-being ahead of their grandchildren's?

Not to be cruel. but if Mom and/or Dad -- after all their years on this planet -- haven't developed the common sense necessary to support themselves in their latter years, why should this be your concern?

Of course, maybe you're just a better person than I am.

MrsPete

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2014, 06:06:58 AM »
This is a tough question, and I think the right answer lies at a mid-point: 

- Unless you have a genuinely toxic family in which your parents outright sabotaged your attempts at success in life -- and few people grow up that way -- you have some moral obligation to help your aging parents. 
- You shouldn't feel obligated to beggar yourself and endanger your children's futures in providing for your elderly parents. 

Speaking only for myself, my dad is already gone, and my mom has made some questionable financial choices, but overall she's in good shape:  She has a pension and SS, so she will have a modest income for life.  And she jokes that the first bill she pays every month is her husband's life insurance (he isn't in the best of health).  Still, she's likely to live to be 100 (or more), so she will likely need help -- both practical and financial. 

She's not going to live with me.  We get along well, but that would be "too much".  If she were sick, I'd spend the night on her sofa or bring her to my house temporarily, but I would not agree to an all-day-every-day arrangement. 

If she were in financial need, I would bring her groceries every week or buy her medicines.  Given that she has a paid-for house and the above-mentioned incomes, I would not expect that to be necessary.  What I could see as more probable would be that she'd need a new roof or some plumbing work, and she wouldn't have the money to cover it.  I would help with that.  If we were renting a beach house, I'd get a slightly larger one so she could come along -- but I wouldn't pay for something that'd be a significant additional cost.  Like a cruise ticket, perhaps.   

And, of course, I would be very willing to drive her to appointments, etc.  We lost my grandmother not long ago, and I spent LOTS of time doing these things for her in her last years.  It wasn't particularly cheap, and it was time consuming -- but I regret not one bit of it. 

DollarBill

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #80 on: December 22, 2014, 07:33:08 AM »
Following post.

Vilgan

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #81 on: December 23, 2014, 10:22:36 AM »
Lot's of judgment in this thread, but one comment I wanted to make: Frequently parents are terrible with money because of a lack of knowledge not because of greed. My mother is awesome but she has spent most of her life energy on teaching and would frequently be overly generous. She had very little knowledge of anything financial and had basically carried a large amount of debt her whole life by being overly generous and purchasing stuff a bit more often than made sense.

In the past 5 years we've talked a lot more about money, strategy, and she's done a lot of reading to get better. She even had some money in a 403b because she thought she should but was essentially getting robbed because she trusted the "financial advisor" that she was hooked up with and was paying 5% loads and 3%/year fees. By fixing a lot of stuff now, helping her develop a plan, etc I feel like it is a lot less likely that she will be in a position where she needs help from us. If she did need help, my siblings and I would work together to make sure she was okay but being proactive now can solve problems before they happen.

Note: I don't think this is relevant for OP, but is worth considering for others reading the thread
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 10:24:17 AM by Vilgan »

Skyhigh

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #82 on: December 23, 2014, 10:35:39 AM »
Immediate family (spouse & crotchfruit) first.  Parents secondary.  What righteous grandparent would want to put their well-being ahead of their grandchildren's?

Not to be cruel. but if Mom and/or Dad -- after all their years on this planet -- haven't developed the common sense necessary to support themselves in their latter years, why should this be your concern?

Of course, maybe you're just a better person than I am.

I don't think anyone wants to burden their children, however being pushed out of ones standard of living seems to push the panic button in people. We all hold an image of ourselves that we like to project to the world and when forced out of a comfort zone can be very disturbing.

Lanthiriel

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2014, 01:19:16 PM »
My mom is a different story. My brother and I separately and around the same time did some research and came to the conclusion that she is a narcissist. Growing up with her was tough. Her mind operates in completely different spheres as far as what's appropriate behavior for herself vs what's appropriate for everyone else. Her perception of reality is often greatly skewed. If you met her before meeting my dad you would genuinely believe he's a racist, misogynistic, selfish, authoritarian dictator of a husband. And of course, she's a sweet lil' lady who'd never hurt a fly. She'll tell you he threw her out of the house with my youngest brother (11 at the time) when she was still recovering from a recent surgery. She's even told me that and every time she tries to go there with me I tell her, "Mom, I was there. YOU left HIM, and refused to stay when HE said you should at least stay until you're fully recovered!" She also liked to tell my youngest brother that my dad didn't want him/love him [not true!] because my dad didn't want anymore children after the first two [true--but BIG difference between not wanting future children vs not wanting a child that's already there now!]

It's because of things like that that my mother would NOT be welcome to live in my house (or even in an in-law suite, or next door or on my street, etc) if I have children. I'd be too worried about her manipulating them to like her more by undermining their relationship with me. BUT I feel she was and is the best mother she is capable of being along with her delusions, and she did the best she could. I will absolutely still care for her as I'm able to by making sure she has a roof over her head (in her hometown, not where I'm living at) and other care as needed. But on my terms.

I relate to this so much. My own mother is only 50, but she has made terrible financial decisions since her divorce and just cannot understand that she can't maintain the lifestyle she had when married to someone making six figures on a teacher's helper salary. I had a very difficult time growing up with her; it was like we were always in one big competition but I didn't know the rules. Now that I'm an adult, she has created an entirely revisionist history of what went on in my childhood. She also demonizes my father who is, admittedly, a little difficult, but who has always been an excellent provider and has continued to support her and my sisters after the divorce.

I have continually tried to have conversations with her about her financial situation (downsizing to a smaller house, not buying a brand new car, etc), but she just gets angry. She thinks I am cheap and that I should live a more luxurious life. When she came to visit me in my new city, she told me I should be ashamed at how worn down my rental house is (I think it's charming!) and told me I was an idiot for buying a used car with 100k+ miles (it's a newer Toyota!). And yet she hints that I should have her move in with me as a nanny when we start having kids. I couldn't imagine a situation more harmful to my mental health or my marriage...

iris lily

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2014, 09:30:12 AM »
I have probably said this before on this thread or on a similar one, but: kudos to all of you younger ones here who are successfully navigating relationships with your parents and money. If your parents did not and do not now provide good role modeling for frugality and living within your means, you've made a BIG leap yourself, to get you to adopt Mustachean values.

You are smarter than your parents! haha. But really, it's true.

Please show your children, if you have them, those values.  Even though they may grow up to adopt a consumer lifestyle, the will have tools to scale back, if they choose to do so.

MsAligned

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2014, 09:50:12 AM »
There was an article on NPR on Monday concerning financial fraud and the elderly
http://www.npr.org/2014/12/22/372511329/services-offer-a-means-to-foil-widespread-elder-fraud

A person whose grandmother was taken advantage of started this service
https://www.truelinkfinancial.com/ which monitors the spending of a family member. It looks like it could be a good way to help a family member, especially one whose spending habits may be of concern due to bad choices or incipient dementia.


KJ

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2014, 09:53:26 PM »
If you help them financially you are enabling them and putting your own family at risk, they should never have asked, bad form on their part.

If you want to help, help by providing information, budgeting advice, finding services available etc.  If they choose to not help themselves it is their choice, not yours.  They got themselves into the predicament and they can't expect others to bail them out so they can continue with a life they cannot afford.

If you help them once, they will expect it a second time, and a third, and a fourth etc etc.  What happens when you can no longer afford to bail them out.

If you have a granny flat for them to move into, sure let them move in, but don't finance their lifestyle, it will only drag you down too.

dmn

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #87 on: December 25, 2014, 02:30:26 AM »
Spending christmas with my parents, this issue actually costs me some sleep these days.

It's not that my parents are really destitute. They will get a small pension of ~800$/month and they own two houses which currently yield ~3500$/month in rent neglecting maintenance costs. Both houses will be paid off in 5 years. They are not eligible for social security payments. Even after house maintenance and taxes, their combined net retirement income should be above 2000$/month, so they will not have to live in abject poverty when they retire in ~5-10 years (depending on their health, they might work until maybe the age of 70).

However, retirement - once it's forced on them by failing health - will require very drastic lifestyle cuts in all areas. My grandparents were poor working class, and my mother was the first to attend university, earn a degree and make good money. She enjoys being able to spend more: she thinks she deserves it for being successful and working much, and she can currently afford it because she earns high wages of 100$/hour gross. However, with the amount of capital they saved, I fear that my parents' spending will be completely unsustainable as soon as they stop working.

Now you might say that it's their decision to spend a lot now and drastically cut back when they retire. If that was the case, I would be fine with it. However, they seem to try not to think about it. When I try to get specifics out of them, they often say that they "hope that things will work out" and point to the rental income, which I cannot see replacing a 100$/hour salary. I tried to discuss whether they might want to reduce their spending in some lower-priority category now so that they need not cut drastically if their plan does not work out. However, every single area of their spending seems to be so essential that they do not even contemplate cutting back:

(1) Housing: They currently rent a huge flat because they "like to have some space". They also have rather high quality standards, everything must look nice (IKEA furniture is for poor students). At least the area is quite cheap.

(2) Groceries: My mother usually shops at nice organic food stores, as she likes good quality and she enjoys the atmosphere in the shops. When shopping elsewhere, she at least buys brand products instead of no-name discount goods.

(3) Health care: Instead of common health insurance, my mother has a kind of premium policy giving her access to more doctors and alternative medicine. This way she does not have to use just any normal doctor, but she can have the one her friends recommend to her, and she can have acupuncture which she figures will improve her health so that she can work longer. The premiums are over 300$/month higher though. She could lower her insurance to the normal standard (and normal premiums) at any time, but she does not want to. Oh, and she also regularly spends extra money out of pocket for more alternative medicine which is not covered even by her premium policy.

(4) Cars: They have two cars, but they need them for their jobs. They will always need at least one, because their cheap area has very little public transport.

(5) Other discretionary spending: I cannot estimate how much they spend on this. Recent examples are some bowls from a local artist they know personally, or some bronze statuette that they noticed somewhere and thought they might like. They also spend some money on yoga courses and similar activities, but I figure that is not so expensive and they really enjoy it.

Seeing this list, I am worried about the prospect of funding this lifestyle with just two paid-off houses and some tiny pension. I would like them to at least think about this issue in advance and not just push it away into the future. They make a choice by not thinking about it, but I fear that their choice is based more on magical thinking than on rational decisions: I get the impression that they hope their retirement income will somehow match the above-mentioned level of spending. They still have several years, so they could soften the cutbacks at retirement by saving more now. However, my mother says she "cannot" save any money beyond the mortgage payments, and the idea of cutting any of the above spending items to save more seems to offend her.

So I am unsure what to do. Should I try not to mention the topic any more until my mother's health forces her to quit her job? She does not want to talk about it in detail, so probably I should not force the topic on her. On the other hand, she will work for a few more years, and adjustments now would make a noticeable difference later.

In any case, I do not intend to support them financially (except for nursing home care, which children are legally obliged to pay for in Germany). Their assets can easily support a lifestyle similar to my own, and I would resent working more just so that my parents can continue to live more luxuriously than I do.

Skyhigh

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #88 on: December 25, 2014, 10:36:54 AM »


It seems to me that in the past family was the insurance program against life. If you lost your job your family moved in with your brothers till things got better and also in return. In the 1970's it seemed that Americans were more affluent from past generations and felt liberated to move away from the hub of family. As a result my generation grew up apart from relations and did not experience the tradition of family helping each other out.

As adults however we are expected to be held to tradition of "putting extended family first" and it does not hold the same sense of obligation as with my parents.  As a result there is a vetting process that proceeds the decision to help. In contrast chronically in trouble relatives seems to use that sense of tradition to bleed the boomer generation dry. 

Skyhigh

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #89 on: December 25, 2014, 10:50:46 AM »

Often people are criticized for having children when they are poor. I have thought often about the responsible path to child baring as to what a good measure of solid financial footing is to make that decision and have come to the conclusion that the variables are unknowable. As young people one does not know if they will be laid off in 5 years or if their chosen path will amply provide ten years in the future. Often the time to start a family is before a good measure of ones financial health is determined and if one waits too long discover that there are plenty of resources yet the opportunity has past.

Seems as though nature has put us in a position of having to place blind faith and great optimism on the promise of the future when deciding to start a family.

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2014, 09:11:03 AM »
These are hard issues.  I care for my mother now who is early 70s and has dementia because I think it's the right thing to do.  Did I struggle with that?  Yes, *very* much.  She and my father should have planned better and blew a lot of their retirement quickly. 

I think there are trade offs.  I moved her into my house, so she contributes toward rent and household expenses, which is a plus for my budget.  Over time, I expect I will have to contribute more to her care though I am planning as well as possible for that and trying to find a fair balance between prioritizing my own needs and those for her.  She has a long-term care policy which is worth encouraging parents to buy -- and buying for yourself at a certain age.  Assisted living and home aide costs are shockingly expensive and our budget would not be working now without the policy as she needs 24/7 supervision. 

One benefit of this for me though is that seeing her reality has strengthened my commitment to not making the same mistakes. I think that long term, I will be in a better position for the wake up call to be very clear on my own finances and priorities. 

jmusic

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Re: Moral obligation for caring for destitute parents
« Reply #91 on: December 31, 2014, 10:55:05 AM »
Regarding LTC insurance, my understanding is that when the product was new it wasn't priced very well and was a fabulous deal.  Nowadays, the insurance companies have gotten wise and the products are MUCH more expensive.