Author Topic: Modern Day Slavery  (Read 17659 times)

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7859
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #100 on: May 30, 2018, 10:12:32 AM »
These modern day walmart "slaves" are now getting the opportunity to attend college for the cost of 1 dollar per day

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/walmart-unveils-a-new-employee-perk-college-tuition.html

sounds like they do have it rough.  also Walmart pays 11 bucks an hour - if they were working the full 40 hours a week that would be 23k a year plus essentially a free education. 

use2betrix

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1022
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #101 on: May 30, 2018, 10:45:02 AM »
Again - our topic is overweight/obesity. That IS determined by calories. You can get just as fat eating all the “healthy” foods you mentioned, if you eat enough of it. Someone can also lose weight by “just” eating McDonald’s, if they eat the right amount of it.

Honestly, your post is just filled with petty excuses. I can’t really argue that yes, it takes time to bake a chicken breast or put some rice in the microwave.

I’m baffled at some of the arguments here. Like cooking basic food takes so much skill and knowledge and time. How somehow I can do all of it working 60-70 hrs a week yet no “poor” person who “shouldn’t have to” work more than 40 hrs, can possibly find the time to do? Some people are apparently just so fucking lazy that it’s too much to ask them to cook something. Get real.

Amazing that on a forum that places so much value on biking everywhere and doing “work” yourself, that people can justify that it’s too much to expect poor people to cook their own food. That logic is facepunch worthy.

You keep making assumptions about people and basing your arguments on them.

One assumption is that people know how to cook food.  It sounds stupid.  My parents always cooked food at home, so I saw them making meals every night.  Eventually my mom and dad showed me the basics of chopping things up, reading a recipe, and creating a meal.

I also know people who eat out nearly every night.  They can't cook, so their kids have never learned to cook properly.  They have trouble with slicing an onion, don't know the difference between browning and burning something in a pan, don't know how to add seasonings to a dish to taste.  They've never followed a simple recipe before.  They can't even name all the common vegetables you find at a store.  Can they learn?  Absolutely.  But they will waste a lot of food, take forever to cook most things, and make a lot of terrible meals in the meantime.  If you're pretty well off, this is something that you can deal with.  If you're very poor, the risk of wasting your weekly food money on something that takes forever and may well be inedible once complete is a pretty strong deterrent.

Not everyone is lucky enough to know how to eat healthy foods, or know much about diet at all.  Again, because my parents cooked at home every night, and we generally ate healthy food I ended up having an intuitive sense of what is good for me.  Potato chips are basically the same as a baked potato, right?  This is a question I was asked by a guy in university . . . and he wasn't joking.  Some schools and parents don't teach much about food and nutrition . . . and this is another hurdle that many poor people must overcome.

Another assumption is that people have easy access to healthy food.  If you don't own a car, getting around on public transit can be a difficult and time consuming experience.  You're likely to find yourself limited to the stores within walking distance of where you live . . . and there are many places where there aren't any decent grocery stores nearby.  This means that you end up not having access to the same selection of fresh vegetables and unprocessed meats that are healthier to eat.


Now, obviously none of these issues are insurmountable, but they do exist. They make it more difficult for people who are very poor to eat healthy food than it is for you or me.  I'm not saying that poor people should give up, or should stop striving to better their situation at all.  I'm arguing that we need a little compassion when considering their situation . . . as it is materially different from ours.


Again - how hard is it to put some ground beef into a patty and toss it on the stove for 5-10 minutes? How hard is it to marinate a chicken breast, and put it in the oven?

Ooohhhh adding a cup of water to some dry oats and microwaving them might be just too challenging of a task for poor people to handle.

I’d hate to expect someone to be able to stick an uncle bens rice packet in the microwave and mess that up! Heaven forbid they can’t read instructions and tear the top to vent it!

Even if the meat is as complicated to understand as your portray, there’s no reason they can’t make good complex carbs (rice, oatmeal) instead of all the other garbage carbs people eat. Making oatmeal is literally idiot proof if you know how to read.

I’m starting to think people here are confusing poor with Down’s syndrome.

Richie Poor

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Texas
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #102 on: May 30, 2018, 11:07:22 AM »
Quote
Government interference on this matter is rooted in socialism - specifically a need to control (prevent for moral reasons) the slave market.  The US system (like every functioning economic system in the world) is a mix of both capitalist and socialist ideas, holding each other in check.  Capitalism tends to provide drive to create/innovate, socialism tends to provide protection for the people.  Go to far into either direction, and your economic system will eventually run into trouble.
While I agree with this...
In a purely capitalist system, you would be allowed to buy slaves. 
Capitalism seems to have been the force that allowed eradication of slavery, or at least countries abandoned it in approximately the same order they became capitalist. I suppose it could be an indirect effect, and actually capitalism allowed industrialization, which made machine labor economically preferable to human labor, which ended slavery.

When government artificially creates rules and limits freedom of a market for the betterment of the people, it is acting in a socialist manner.  Ending slavery by law artificially limits the ability to buy slaves by government decree - not free market choice.  It is a regulation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of slaves.  Therefore by definition it is a socialist rather than capitalist action.  You could try to make the argument that it would not be economically feasible to own slaves after industrialization and thus capitalism would have solved the problem . . . but the 40.3 million people currently in slavery around the world (including 150 billion dollars worth of slavery related commerce that goes on today in the US alone) demonstrate how incorrect that theory is. https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that in a purely capitalistic system you would be allowed to buy slaves. If capitalism is an economic system built on free market choice then that free market choice has to apply to everybody, even the would be slaves. So removing their free market choice would be anti-capitalistic. Paying them the lowest possible wage you could get them to freely choose to work for would be capitalistic.

I'm not arguing pure capitalism is the ideal system, as a purely capitalistic system could easily have negative outcomes for a lot of people. I just don't think pure capitalism creates chattel slavery. Even socialism could have slavery if a socialistic society determined one group of people don't qualify for basic human rights. You would argue that wouldn't be pure socialism and I would agree.

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4330
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #103 on: May 30, 2018, 11:17:24 AM »
People who complain about CEO salaries have generally never done the job.  It's a 24/7 job that requires immense amounts of IQ and EQ and decisions that will have ripple effects through countless families and communities.  A CEO typically has 10-20 bosses (i.e., the board of directors), board committees, numerous angry stakeholders, lawsuits to deal with, big suppliers, government regulators, and enough stress to kill a horse.  It's absolutely nothing like the life of a front line 9-5 worker, and a good CEO adds value far, far beyond his or her compensation.     

This is very true.  I'm a mid-level executive at my company, and there isn't enough money in the world to get me to aspire to being a CEO of a public company.

I don't think I'd mind being CEO of an established company.  You basically get to fly around the country for free and make sure things are going well.  From time to time, you have to be the public face telling investors what they want to hear.  You get to solicit input and decide what to do next.  People below you then do all the dirty work like firing and reorganizing to carry out your wishes.  I really don't see how CEO's have it so poorly.  Certainly very few of them are voluntarily hitting the ER button, although they are well beyond FI.
And I wouldn't mind being a NFL starting quarterback, all you gotta do is throw a ball at targets while other people protect you.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #104 on: May 30, 2018, 12:10:58 PM »
Quote
Government interference on this matter is rooted in socialism - specifically a need to control (prevent for moral reasons) the slave market.  The US system (like every functioning economic system in the world) is a mix of both capitalist and socialist ideas, holding each other in check.  Capitalism tends to provide drive to create/innovate, socialism tends to provide protection for the people.  Go to far into either direction, and your economic system will eventually run into trouble.
While I agree with this...
In a purely capitalist system, you would be allowed to buy slaves. 
Capitalism seems to have been the force that allowed eradication of slavery, or at least countries abandoned it in approximately the same order they became capitalist. I suppose it could be an indirect effect, and actually capitalism allowed industrialization, which made machine labor economically preferable to human labor, which ended slavery.

When government artificially creates rules and limits freedom of a market for the betterment of the people, it is acting in a socialist manner.  Ending slavery by law artificially limits the ability to buy slaves by government decree - not free market choice.  It is a regulation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of slaves.  Therefore by definition it is a socialist rather than capitalist action.  You could try to make the argument that it would not be economically feasible to own slaves after industrialization and thus capitalism would have solved the problem . . . but the 40.3 million people currently in slavery around the world (including 150 billion dollars worth of slavery related commerce that goes on today in the US alone) demonstrate how incorrect that theory is. https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that in a purely capitalistic system you would be allowed to buy slaves. If capitalism is an economic system built on free market choice then that free market choice has to apply to everybody, even the would be slaves. So removing their free market choice would be anti-capitalistic. Paying them the lowest possible wage you could get them to freely choose to work for would be capitalistic.

I'm not arguing pure capitalism is the ideal system, as a purely capitalistic system could easily have negative outcomes for a lot of people. I just don't think pure capitalism creates chattel slavery. Even socialism could have slavery if a socialistic society determined one group of people don't qualify for basic human rights. You would argue that wouldn't be pure socialism and I would agree.
[/quote]

Pure capitalism requires a market free of government interference for private owners to create profit from trade and industry.  It doesn't require that this market is open to all.  In fact, one of the constants of capitalism in practice is that it concentrates wealth into fewer and fewer hands until the barrier to competitively enter the market becomes insurmountable to most.  It was American application of capitalism (profit motives, entrepreneurialism and market relations) after all that drove the slave trade in the early United States.  Slavery is entirely compatible with capitalism.

I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Both systems sound great in theory (Reward people for their work!  Make things fair for everyone!) but real world implementation sucks unless the one is tempered by the other.

:P

PDXTabs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2018, 12:52:33 PM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #106 on: May 30, 2018, 01:06:36 PM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

I don't draw a big distinction between being a slave to the will of the state and a slave to the will of the people.  :P

Richie Poor

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Texas
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #107 on: May 30, 2018, 02:25:28 PM »
Quote
Government interference on this matter is rooted in socialism - specifically a need to control (prevent for moral reasons) the slave market.  The US system (like every functioning economic system in the world) is a mix of both capitalist and socialist ideas, holding each other in check.  Capitalism tends to provide drive to create/innovate, socialism tends to provide protection for the people.  Go to far into either direction, and your economic system will eventually run into trouble.
While I agree with this...
In a purely capitalist system, you would be allowed to buy slaves. 
Capitalism seems to have been the force that allowed eradication of slavery, or at least countries abandoned it in approximately the same order they became capitalist. I suppose it could be an indirect effect, and actually capitalism allowed industrialization, which made machine labor economically preferable to human labor, which ended slavery.

When government artificially creates rules and limits freedom of a market for the betterment of the people, it is acting in a socialist manner.  Ending slavery by law artificially limits the ability to buy slaves by government decree - not free market choice.  It is a regulation of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of slaves.  Therefore by definition it is a socialist rather than capitalist action.  You could try to make the argument that it would not be economically feasible to own slaves after industrialization and thus capitalism would have solved the problem . . . but the 40.3 million people currently in slavery around the world (including 150 billion dollars worth of slavery related commerce that goes on today in the US alone) demonstrate how incorrect that theory is. https://www.antislavery.org/slavery-today/modern-slavery/

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that in a purely capitalistic system you would be allowed to buy slaves. If capitalism is an economic system built on free market choice then that free market choice has to apply to everybody, even the would be slaves. So removing their free market choice would be anti-capitalistic. Paying them the lowest possible wage you could get them to freely choose to work for would be capitalistic.

I'm not arguing pure capitalism is the ideal system, as a purely capitalistic system could easily have negative outcomes for a lot of people. I just don't think pure capitalism creates chattel slavery. Even socialism could have slavery if a socialistic society determined one group of people don't qualify for basic human rights. You would argue that wouldn't be pure socialism and I would agree.

Pure capitalism requires a market free of government interference for private owners to create profit from trade and industry...
[/quote]

I have always have understood capitalism requires a voluntary exchange. Armed robbery isn't an example of a capitalist transaction but can be free of government interference. I don't see how you could enslave someone and call it voluntary. If you arbitrarily exclude a group of people from the need for voluntary transactions in a capitalist society you could have slavery but if a government excludes a group of people then isn't that government interference and no longer pure capitalism?

It doesn't really matter much to the discussion. I agree that a poor application of capitalism can have slavery with tragic results which may be your main point.
 

PDXTabs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #108 on: May 30, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

I don't draw a big distinction between being a slave to the will of the state and a slave to the will of the people.  :P

Spoken like someone that didn't spend the 1950s in China.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #109 on: May 30, 2018, 02:53:40 PM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

I don't draw a big distinction between being a slave to the will of the state and a slave to the will of the people.  :P

Spoken like someone that didn't spend the 1950s in China.

Can you give me an example of a successful democratic socialist state?  One that eschews capitalism.

Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #110 on: May 30, 2018, 02:54:17 PM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

I don't draw a big distinction between being a slave to the will of the state and a slave to the will of the people.  :P

It's the difference between all people being subject to the will of the majority of people, vs all people being subject to the will of the 1% of people who own the majority of the world's wealth.

PDXTabs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #111 on: May 30, 2018, 05:24:58 PM »
Can you give me an example of a successful democratic socialist state?  One that eschews capitalism.

I never said that there were any. But at least if the state reflects the will of the people, the people can change the nature of the economic model when they decide that it doesn't work. If a very small number of people control the whole country (which sounds pretty un-socialist to me) then they can continue down the wrong path for decades.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #112 on: May 30, 2018, 06:09:52 PM »
Can you give me an example of a successful democratic socialist state?  One that eschews capitalism.

I never said that there were any. But at least if the state reflects the will of the people, the people can change the nature of the economic model when they decide that it doesn't work. If a very small number of people control the whole country (which sounds pretty un-socialist to me) then they can continue down the wrong path for decades.

My problem with the concepts of pure capitalism and pure socialism is primarily with their implementation.  In theory, they're awesome.  Reality never seems to measure up though.


Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #113 on: May 30, 2018, 07:13:05 PM »
Can you give me an example of a successful democratic socialist state?  One that eschews capitalism.

I never said that there were any. But at least if the state reflects the will of the people, the people can change the nature of the economic model when they decide that it doesn't work. If a very small number of people control the whole country (which sounds pretty un-socialist to me) then they can continue down the wrong path for decades.

My problem with the concepts of pure capitalism and pure socialism is primarily with their implementation.  In theory, they're awesome.  Reality never seems to measure up though.

I don't want pure socialism and I don't think even self-proclaimed democratic socialists in the US such as Bernie Sanders want pure socialism. No serious politician in the US is talking about nationalizing 100% of the wealth in every industry, and I wouldn't support such a candidate if one did exist. But there is a middle ground between nationalizing every industry and anarcho-capitalism.

swaneesr

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #114 on: May 30, 2018, 07:58:35 PM »
People who complain about CEO salaries have generally never done the job.  It's a 24/7 job that requires immense amounts of IQ and EQ and decisions that will have ripple effects through countless families and communities.  A CEO typically has 10-20 bosses (i.e., the board of directors), board committees, numerous angry stakeholders, lawsuits to deal with, big suppliers, government regulators, and enough stress to kill a horse.  It's absolutely nothing like the life of a front line 9-5 worker, and a good CEO adds value far, far beyond his or her compensation.     

This is very true.  I'm a mid-level executive at my company, and there isn't enough money in the world to get me to aspire to being a CEO of a public company.

I don't think I'd mind being CEO of an established company.  You basically get to fly around the country for free and make sure things are going well.  From time to time, you have to be the public face telling investors what they want to hear.  You get to solicit input and decide what to do next.  People below you then do all the dirty work like firing and reorganizing to carry out your wishes.  I really don't see how CEO's have it so poorly.  Certainly very few of them are voluntarily hitting the ER button, although they are well beyond FI.
And I wouldn't mind being a NFL starting quarterback, all you gotta do is throw a ball at targets while other people protect you.
I work for a Fortune 500 company. Years ago, someone explained to me that to be in contention for the CEO position, you needed to understand it is like the 1960’s version of Batman on TV. Batman and Robin scale the outside of the biggest building on campus. From time to time a window opens and someone sticks their head out to talk. One difference is that person popping out of the window also tries to step on your fingers and knock you off the side of the building to take you out of The Game.

OP - you clearly do not understand the amount of ability, intelligence, effort, and luck it takes to be the CEO of a large corporation.

I am just an engineer. I am used to working hard long hours across the world for my company. I leave for Europe on Friday to prepare for a project on schedule for the year 2020.

I understand that being CEO is more than sitting in a big chair with a great view.

OP - please consider the amount of competition it must take to become the CEO of a corporation like WalMart.


Like they said in the movie Highlander.........

There can be only ONE........

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 08:00:56 PM by swaneesr »

Seadog

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Halifax, NS
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #115 on: May 30, 2018, 08:44:29 PM »
Pay 'disparity' is easy to talk about, but 'work disparity' is the underlying reason for the pay differential. If you ask the front line worker if he or she is willing to put 60 hour weeks for 20 years to get ahead and have a shot at the c-suite, my bet is that most would want nothing to do with it.  But they still think the CEO should be paid less so they get more.

This.

Whatever lines you want to draw amongst race, sex or class (and recently a good many have been), they almost disappear when you take into account things like hours worked, experience, stress, and other factors that are intimately related to end of the line productivity and how much useful stuff is being generated for someone else.

I had made 6 figures ever since my second year out of school. Another friend of mine, she still hasn't after 12 years, despite both doing technical jobs. My first year it was mostly training and I made an ok, but not great wage for an engineer. Certainly not great given only a handful of days off over 6 months (including weekends), no schedule, and essentially 24 hour on call availability. Then I started doing jobs on my own and money came. Then international work and a lot more. Enough to FIRE after 7.5 years. More freedom of schedule and days off, but still essentially always on call.

I'd get confused because I'd be talking to others about how I only got 6 weeks vacation a year, or had to work 3 days straight. They'd laugh, and say "Wha? Only 6 weeks? The rest of the world is lucky with 3, and most of us do 5 days straight - every week!" Then I'd say "Well yeah, but you get 2 days off a week and holidays, so really that's like another 16 weeks vacation on top..."  Or having to clarify that 3 days of work = 72 hours, literally sleeping maybe in an office chair for 10 minutes here and there while some computer program is reprocessing data. I literally got to the point where I forgot many people work on a schedule and my sort of life wasn't the norm. Just the implied idea that there was time off naturally "baked into" a work day or week was foreign.

My friend was telling me about how her job wanted her to work some of her vacation weeks for extra pay, pull ot, etc etc. She said none of that, and is out the door every day at 4. Again this left me perplexed, but she has kids to pick up so work is a priority somewhere between kids/husband/pets and Netflix. Fine. Different world than what I'm used to. But a rig which costs $1m+/day isn't waiting on you while you pick up junior from day care. Hell, even the chopper which only costs a few thousand per hour wont. Lets not even think about the stress for when things go wrong, let alone if it's your fuckup. We're talking a guy over your shoulder with a stop watch, counting seconds when you restart the computer after windows crashes, then sending someone a bill for that thousand dollar reset.

Some people love the power and privilege that go with that, pulling over 200k before 30 opens up a ton of doors, and for friends who had the misfortune to be born in not so nice countries, it's literally a "get out of that shit hole free" card, I used it to FIRE. I also sacrificed a good portion of my 20s. Friends which kids didn't know them since they were offshore or in jungles for 250 days a year. It's easy to think big earners are just "sitting in their nice office, flying around and putting on a PR face for shareholders" and having others do dirty work. 

Unless you've done these sorts of jobs where you need to put details like the birth of your first child #2 to work, you shouldn't get a vote on what a fair distribution is.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #116 on: May 30, 2018, 09:09:28 PM »
Again - our topic is overweight/obesity. That IS determined by calories. You can get just as fat eating all the “healthy” foods you mentioned, if you eat enough of it. Someone can also lose weight by “just” eating McDonald’s, if they eat the right amount of it.

I suggest doing a little scientific experiment and giving this a try.

For the first two weeks, eat nothing but chicken and vegetables, but you're allowed to eat as much of them as you like.
For the next two weeks, go to McDonalds every day and have one Big Mac, large fries, large sugary drink, and you're not allowed to eat anything else for the rest of the day.

I'd guess that in the first two weeks, you won't actually want to eat too much, you'll end up losing some weight, and you'd really have to force-feed yourself if you wanted to put on weight. And in the second two weeks you'll be stupidly hungry and still end up not losing weight.

I do take your point about basic cooking not being too hard or expensive, though. Chicken and vegetables is a very cheap, easy, tasty, and healthy meal (which I tend to cook for myself pretty much every other day).

I did this test for a few weeks. I ate for breakfast lunch and snacks nothing but candy bars.  The rule was to only eat 1 serving and  wait 30 minutes.  If still hungry I can have another serving.  Basically I ate candy all day and then had some form of dinner at night.  I lost weight because calories in was less than calories expended. 

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #117 on: May 30, 2018, 09:13:02 PM »
People who complain about CEO salaries have generally never done the job.  It's a 24/7 job that requires immense amounts of IQ and EQ and decisions that will have ripple effects through countless families and communities.  A CEO typically has 10-20 bosses (i.e., the board of directors), board committees, numerous angry stakeholders, lawsuits to deal with, big suppliers, government regulators, and enough stress to kill a horse.  It's absolutely nothing like the life of a front line 9-5 worker, and a good CEO adds value far, far beyond his or her compensation.     

This is very true.  I'm a mid-level executive at my company, and there isn't enough money in the world to get me to aspire to being a CEO of a public company.

I don't think I'd mind being CEO of an established company.  You basically get to fly around the country for free and make sure things are going well.  From time to time, you have to be the public face telling investors what they want to hear.  You get to solicit input and decide what to do next.  People below you then do all the dirty work like firing and reorganizing to carry out your wishes.  I really don't see how CEO's have it so poorly.  Certainly very few of them are voluntarily hitting the ER button, although they are well beyond FI.

Based on the above comment I suspect you don't really know what a CEO of a public company does and what pressure they are under to perform. 

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7220
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #118 on: May 30, 2018, 09:51:55 PM »
The market rewards those workers with more skills.

Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 

There are guys in my office who work twice as hard as I do, and make half as much.  Yay capitalism?
There are guys in my office who make twice as much as I do, who do basically nothing except hold down a title.  Yay capitalism?
How are either of these comparisons supposed to be reflective of anyone's skill set?

You're all going on about "skills" as if capitalism gives a flying fuck about your skill set.  Nobody gets paid for their skills in a free market economy.  The world's most skilled watercolor artist is paid less than the least skilled CEO at a major multinational.  A highly skilled landscaper makes less than a poorly skilled engineer.  Skill has nothing to do with it.  Wages are set by supply and demand for your labor, not by your skill set.  If you want to make more money as an employee, you don't need to improve your skills, you need to find a new job.  One that pays better.

But even that solution is a farce.  It's just another of the many layers of defense put in place by the people who genuinely run the world, who exercise power.  They want you to get a good education in coloring between the lines, and then stay there for your entire life, because anything else upsets the established power structure that benefits them the most.  Calling it capitalism as if that appeals to your patriotic heartstrings is just gross misdirection, like politicians touting "family values" and "fiscal conservativism" while doing the exact opposite.  Nobody joins the elite class by coloring between the lines and being an obedient employee lapdog.  Whether the lapdog makes $19k/year or $300k/year is basically irrelevant to the world's truly rich people.  They view both of those employees as expendable labor, like a gardener or house painter that you pay with pocket change because you can't be bothered with menial tasks while you sunbathe at Ibiza.

This is not "slavery" in the sense that most Americans learned about in high school history class, but it's conceptually very related.  There is an economically elite minority that wields all of the power, and then there is the vast majority of the population that toils away their lives in support of that elite minority without much chance of improving their lot.  The relative wages have changed a bit, but in both cases the workers get just enough to keep them from revolting, and the rich owners get everything else left over after deciding just how much the workers will get.  The only thing that has changed (and I admit this a big one) is that American slaves were kept in line by force, and modern American workers are kept in line by ignorance.  We have chosen our servitude, because we see no alternative, but that doesn't really make it any less constrictive.


EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #119 on: May 30, 2018, 10:14:24 PM »
The market rewards those workers with more skills.

Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 

There are guys in my office who work twice as hard as I do, and make half as much.  Yay capitalism?
There are guys in my office who make twice as much as I do, who do basically nothing except hold down a title.  Yay capitalism?
How are either of these comparisons supposed to be reflective of anyone's skill set?

You're all going on about "skills" as if capitalism gives a flying fuck about your skill set.  Nobody gets paid for their skills in a free market economy.  The world's most skilled watercolor artist is paid less than the least skilled CEO at a major multinational.  A highly skilled landscaper makes less than a poorly skilled engineer.  Skill has nothing to do with it.  Wages are set by supply and demand for your labor, not by your skill set.  If you want to make more money as an employee, you don't need to improve your skills, you need to find a new job.  One that pays better.

But even that solution is a farce.  It's just another of the many layers of defense put in place by the people who genuinely run the world, who exercise power.  They want you to get a good education in coloring between the lines, and then stay there for your entire life, because anything else upsets the established power structure that benefits them the most.  Calling it capitalism as if that appeals to your patriotic heartstrings is just gross misdirection, like politicians touting "family values" and "fiscal conservativism" while doing the exact opposite.  Nobody joins the elite class by coloring between the lines and being an obedient employee lapdog.  Whether the lapdog makes $19k/year or $300k/year is basically irrelevant to the world's truly rich people.  They view both of those employees as expendable labor, like a gardener or house painter that you pay with pocket change because you can't be bothered with menial tasks while you sunbathe at Ibiza.

This is not "slavery" in the sense that most Americans learned about in high school history class, but it's conceptually very related.  There is an economically elite minority that wields all of the power, and then there is the vast majority of the population that toils away their lives in support of that elite minority without much chance of improving their lot.  The relative wages have changed a bit, but in both cases the workers get just enough to keep them from revolting, and the rich owners get everything else left over after deciding just how much the workers will get.  The only thing that has changed (and I admit this a big one) is that American slaves were kept in line by force, and modern American workers are kept in line by ignorance.  We have chosen our servitude, because we see no alternative, but that doesn't really make it any less constrictive.

I think that our modern society has chosen our slavery via ignorance and consumerism.  Isn't that what this whole MMM cultish  following is all about?

I also agree.  In the US you are not paid because you are skilled.  You are paid based on how much your work is worth to the employer. Part of the game of life is understanding how to play the game and win.  Those who are good at playing the game do better than those who either just don't get it, can't get it, or born in a situation where it may be impossible to even compete.  The reality is that no one is at a level playing field.  Some people have in innate understanding how to succeed with minimal effort while others must work very hard it.  I love how Mustachians have learned how to hack the game and not have to play it at all. . . Eventually.

I have a buddy who has an amazing personality.  He is so easy to get along with and he has a way for remembering people.  He can see you from across the room 10 months after meeting you for the first time later and then say "Sol, how is it going? How is that solar roof coming along?"  Plus, this guy has a very strong work ethic.  Everybody I know likes this guy and he just happens to fall into amazing and profitable situations.  He simply has an innate ability to succeed in life.  On the other hand years ago I worked with a miserable person who was always unhappy, always complained about everything, and absolutely nothing went right in their lives. They had a very poor work ethic and eventually got laid off. 

Most people in the US earn a sizable income from skill, hard work, the right personality, and they provide a rare service that others are willing to pay for.  Even the high earning CEO has those attributes.  You make more money than the person cleaning the office because you have a rare skill set that others are willing to pay for, you are likely hard working, and I assume easy to get along with.

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #120 on: May 30, 2018, 10:24:55 PM »


Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 



It's the worker's job to know their market value.  If they will accept less than their value, that's called poor strategizing.  A company has to pay market value or they will lose workers to the competition.  Capitalism rewards value, not skills.  If a company decides to overpay a worker, the company will lose an edge to the competition.  Successful businesses know how to optimize what they pay and how to get valuable workers.   Except when it's government doing the hiring, in that case inefficiences abound.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 10:27:06 PM by dustinst22 »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7220
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #121 on: May 30, 2018, 10:55:37 PM »
While a lot has been said in this thread, we must recognize that in Capitalism vs Socialism, capitalism is the clear winner and it would be extraordinarily evil to advocate for a socialist economic system in any non-trivial sense.

Does anyone really think socialism is evil, or are we just regurgitating someone else's propaganda?

Because America has lots of socialist institutions that are beloved, and not evil.  Like social security (it's right in the name).  And the power grid that allows you to type away at that computer.  And the post office that delivers your capitalist goods.  And the military that defends your country's interest.  All socialist! 

Quote
The amount of absolute material wealth a minimum wage job can provide in a low cost of living part of the US in 2018 would have been unfathomable by kings a few centuries ago.

I've heard this argument used a lot, and I still find it offensive.  Just because minimum wage Joe has the internet on a pocket computer does not make him "wealthier" than a medieval king.  Kings, like the modern rich, had power.  They go where they want, whenever they want, and they make everyone around them do their bidding.  Poor people have no power.  Poor people get bossed around a lot, and they have limited choices of where to live, who to marry, and how to spend their time.  Being poor in 2018 but eating infinite twinkies does not mean your life is better than a king's.

The real division here is power, not wealth.  And in today's world, wealth buys you power.  Only if you have a LOT of it, like way more than you could ever earn in a lifetime of hourly wages.  Jeff Bezos makes approximately $200k per minute.  Most people on this forum have retired after spending their entire lifetimes to earn less money than Jeff makes while I microwave a frozen burrito.  That kind of power let's Jeff do the sorts of things that only kings can do.

There are a few thousand people like Jeff in the world.  Collectively, they mold and shape human society, and drive all human progress.  Naturally, they drive it in directions that maintain their own grip on the wheel.  All of the rest of us might as well be slaves, in the sense that our lives will not really matter by comparison, no matter what we do.  Nobody who works for an hourly wage is going to make that kind of difference.


Norioch

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #122 on: May 30, 2018, 10:55:53 PM »


Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 



It's the worker's job to know their market value.  If they will accept less than their value, that's called poor strategizing.  A company has to pay market value or they will lose workers to the competition.  Capitalism rewards value, not skills.  If a company decides to overpay a worker, the company will lose an edge to the competition.  Successful businesses know how to optimize what they pay and how to get valuable workers.   Except when it's government doing the hiring, in that case inefficiences abound.

That's idealism. It doesn't work that way in practice. Markets are not magically efficient.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #123 on: May 30, 2018, 11:10:38 PM »

There are a few thousand people like Jeff in the world.  Collectively, they mold and shape human society, and drive all human progress.  Naturally, they drive it in directions that maintain their own grip on the wheel.  All of the rest of us might as well be slaves, in the sense that our lives will not really matter by comparison, no matter what we do.  Nobody who works for an hourly wage is going to make that kind of difference.

You are right, the most wealthy people in the world have the ear of the politicians and have some sway in policy.  Not massive sway, but just enough to pull certain strings in their favor.  Sometimes those really rich people have competing views and the string stay still after being pulled equally in each direction. Frankly, I could give a rats ass what some rich person does with their life as long as it doesn't directly put my life or the life of my loved ones in jeopardy. Luckily we have some laws in the US that tend to but not always prevent that from happening.

BTW, why do you attribute "mattering by comparison" with the ability to alter politics or make lots of money.  That is what is so amazing about Mustachianism; fuck the bullshit corporate world and decide for yourself what is important and what matters. If you really want to make a difference then run for politics. If enough people agree with you, your political actions may actually matter by your definition.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #124 on: May 30, 2018, 11:12:57 PM »


Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 



It's the worker's job to know their market value.  If they will accept less than their value, that's called poor strategizing.  A company has to pay market value or they will lose workers to the competition.  Capitalism rewards value, not skills.  If a company decides to overpay a worker, the company will lose an edge to the competition.  Successful businesses know how to optimize what they pay and how to get valuable workers.   Except when it's government doing the hiring, in that case inefficiences abound.

That's idealism. It doesn't work that way in practice. Markets are not magically efficient.

When looking at one person or one deal at a time mistakes can occur.  When looking at the market as a whole all the mistakes average out and the market is very efficient. 

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #125 on: May 30, 2018, 11:34:51 PM »


That's idealism. It doesn't work that way in practice. Markets are not magically efficient.

The market is actually surprisingly efficient through self correction.  Sure, there are sometimes inefficiencies, and this opens the door for competition/disruption, but these inefficiencies will eventually stabilize.  The age of information has increased efficiencies exponentially.  This will continue.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 11:41:50 PM by dustinst22 »

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7220
  • Age: 41
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #126 on: May 30, 2018, 11:35:32 PM »
BTW, why do you attribute "mattering by comparison" with the ability to alter politics or make lots of money.

I thin Elon Musk has "mattered" because he has chosen to use his wealth and power to change the way society works, in several different ways (all of which benefit him, of course).  No politics required.  He's not using his money to lobby Congress the way the Koch brother's do, he's just changing things.

Zuckerberg and Gates are also good examples.  They changed the world, and got rich, and used their riches and their power to change the world some more.

Who else is on the list of fabulously wealthy people who steer the ship?  Arguably the wealthiest and most powerful man in the entire world today, eclipsing even Jeff Bezos by a large margin, is Vladimir Putin.  Like all fabulously wealthy people, he uses his wealth and his power to preserve his wealth and his power. 

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4330
  • Age: 10
  • Location: USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #127 on: May 30, 2018, 11:44:52 PM »
Who else is on the list of fabulously wealthy people who steer the ship?  Arguably the wealthiest and most powerful man in the entire world today, eclipsing even Jeff Bezos by a large margin, is Vladimir Putin.  Like all fabulously wealthy people, he uses his wealth and his power to preserve his wealth and his power.
Arguably, Putin has little choice in his current behavior. If he lets his guard down for a second, he is a dead man, and not the quick and painless type. Maybe he still enjoys it, though.


Radagast

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1197
  • Location: West of the Mountains, East of the Sea
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #128 on: May 30, 2018, 11:45:50 PM »
One mental model I learned from investing theory is the coin flip competition. Start a huge coin flip competition with 268,435,456 participants (2^28). Report on each round like it's NCAA basketball. At the end, the winner of the competition will have overcome staggering odds to come out ahead, and will be considered a naturally talented individual with many prospects in life, not least of which is writing books about how to win at coin prediction. To what extent might this model explain our social and economic system? Now obviously there is some skill involved in business and personal success, unlike coin calling. But that doesn't mean we haven't also set up a system that is similar to a coin flipping competition.

Personally I find it acceptable and desirable if we try to find and minimize the coin toss elements (never truly possible, but something to work towards), but we will probably not be happy with the results if we take away differences resulting from ability. It seems to me it is especially important to hobble coin toss winners when the winners of the system get compound interest on their winnings indefinitely. But I don't want to single out a single CEO just like I don't want to reduce social injustice by giving 100% of my salary to the government. Ultimately this is a collective action problem that can only be solved at the largest scales.

Also, a while ago I arbitrarily thought that to allow adequate room for talent to rise to the top we should allow income disparities of up to a multiple of 1000. As 22,000,000 is 1,000x a 22,000 average worker, at first glance that may be reasonable.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #129 on: May 30, 2018, 11:53:10 PM »
Part of the Walmart story is exploitation of workers, but part of it is also expectation of workers. I remember a low income friend of the family asking me if I thought I was too good for a very low income job when I was unemployed. Well, yes, yes I do, actually. I didn't spend YEARS in higher education and underpaid entry level jobs so I could throw it all away - and why would you think you deserve the same income as me now when you never put in the time, money and effort that I did????

markbike528CBX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Location: the Everbrown part of the Evergreen State (WA)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:04:07 AM by markbike528CBX »

PDXTabs

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 655
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Vancouver, WA, USA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #131 on: May 31, 2018, 08:33:18 AM »
Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort.  By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 

Capitalism rewards value, not skills.

As sol said, capitalism rewards capital. That's why its called capitalism and not laborism.

EDITed to add - isn't that why we are all maxing our Vanguard funds? Because we figured out that life is better when you have a bunch of capital working for you?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 08:35:47 AM by PDXTabs »

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 526
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #132 on: May 31, 2018, 08:42:31 AM »
Quote
All of the rest of us might as well be slaves, in the sense that our lives will not really matter by comparison, no matter what we do

We might as well just kill ourselves then! If "mattering" to the course of human history is the only metric we plebs would be best served by ending our lives rather than suffering to live under the weight of our impotence.

Or if, as you say, there is no alternative, what is gained by beating our breasts over it?

After all. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

mathlete

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #133 on: May 31, 2018, 08:46:47 AM »
Oh bullshit.  Capitalism does NOTHING of the sort. By definition, it rewards people with capital.  You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid the minimum you will accept, just like everyone else in the capitalist underclass. 

Capitalism rewards value, not skills.

As sol said, capitalism rewards capital. That's why its called capitalism and not laborism.

EDITed to add - isn't that why we are all maxing our Vanguard funds? Because we figured out that life is better when you have a bunch of capital working for you?

This is a good line, and I plan to shamelessly steal it!

Thanks guys.

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #134 on: May 31, 2018, 09:19:14 AM »


As sol said, capitalism rewards capital.

Well yes, as capital is value.  But value in general is rewarded, which is very broad -  it doesn't have to be money/assets.  This is where having valuable skills comes in.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 09:29:29 AM by dustinst22 »

mathlete

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #135 on: May 31, 2018, 09:57:21 AM »
Well yes, as capital is value.  But value in general is rewarded, which is very broad -  it doesn't have to be money/assets.  This is where having valuable skills comes in.

Sure. It's absolutely better to be a skilled laborer than an unskilled laborer. All else being equal.

But who owns the capital explains a much greater amount of disparity than who has the skills.


GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #136 on: May 31, 2018, 10:03:35 AM »


As sol said, capitalism rewards capital.

Well yes, as capital is value.  But value in general is rewarded, which is very broad -  it doesn't have to be money/assets.  This is where having valuable skills comes in.

The value of a skillset is somewhat of a random factor though, isn't it?  Maybe you are the world's best Java programmer and then Python becomes the dominant language.  Maybe you happen to have learned Fortran really really well, and end up in huge demand because a company never bothered to update their ancient software that they now rely on.

Much of the 'value' related to valuable skills is a roll of the dice.

mathlete

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #137 on: May 31, 2018, 10:08:21 AM »
I certainly come down on the side of the laborer in this thread (and in most threads probably), but I did want to say that I don't think it's right to call things that aren't slavery, slavery. Especially when slavery still exists on the planet.

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #138 on: May 31, 2018, 10:25:43 AM »


The value of a skillset is somewhat of a random factor though, isn't it? 

I wouldn't characterize it as random.  It does evolve depending on how the needs of the market change.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11865
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2018, 10:32:27 AM »


The value of a skillset is somewhat of a random factor though, isn't it? 

I wouldn't characterize it as random.  It does evolve depending on how the needs of the market change.

In my previous post, I mentioned how happening to know a nearly dead programming language can demand an extremely high salary . . . but only if there happens to be a company out there looking for a developer with that experience.  When that company finds and hires someone, that skill is no longer useful or in demand.  Seems like random luck much more than an evolution of market needs to me.

undercover

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 790
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2018, 10:57:35 AM »
If you're a conscious living breathing organism then you are a slave, period. You're a slave to your instincts, your fears, your wants...your needs. You have a place when you're born. You didn't choose that place. You are a slave regardless of whether or not you have a billion in the bank or a few cents.

I do think that some people live more enjoyable lives than others, but at the end of the day, we're all still neurotic clueless creatures running around like ants trying to build some machine that will eventually mark the end of our working years anyway. Along with that will come the end of our need to perform work altogether and the nagging urge we wake up with to do something "productive" will be for naught. That's when we will all collectively be in the exact same boat and realize what slaves we really are to this world.

All in all, $11 hour in our modern society living in a LCOL area is pretty fucking amazing compared to what the vast majority of humans has endured.

NorthernBlitz

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 298
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2018, 11:25:47 AM »
I'd further argue that in pure socialism everyone is a slave . . . your owner is the state.  All work that you do will be for the state, food and lodgings will come from the state, and the state will have ultimate decision making power over everything you do.

Except that if you are in a democratic socialist state, the people are the state, and all authority flows from the people. So maybe the state owns everyone, but the people are sovereign, and the will of the people is preserved.

I think it's pretty clear that pure socialism and pure capitalism both fail due to centralization of power and corruption.

Successful countries seem to use capitalism to generate wealth and improve quality of life. They also use socialism to tax capitalistic success to try to prevent too many people from falling through the cracks. I think that the US has been successful because it has led the charge in trying to provide equal opportunity to people in society.

It's clearly not either or. There has to be a mix. Successful countries try different mixes. I'm from Canada, which is a capitalist country that uses more tools from socialism than the US does. But, I'd say that both are capitalist countries.

I also think that countries that lean more towards capitalism than socialism have done much better empirically. I personally believe that this is because it's hard to maintain democracy in countries that become too socialistic. When the government owns everything and you run the government, I think it's really hard to leave (or be removed from) power.

Sadly, I think that the campaign funding / lobbying rules in the US make it too easy to for donors to corrupt elected officials.

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2018, 12:28:34 PM »
Seems like random luck much more than an evolution of market needs to me.

I guess we have different definitions of random.  There are usually reasons and logic for the changes in the market place. 

diapasoun

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Location: California
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #143 on: May 31, 2018, 12:52:55 PM »
This seems like a good place to put this link: 

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

How many slaves work for you?  (Hint: A LOT more than you think.)

Apparently if I'm like the average American then there are 11 billion slaves supporting the United States alone... Somehow I am skeptical of the results of that survey.

The quote I saw for that site on estimated worldwide slave populations was 11 million. Very different from 11 billion.

markbike528CBX

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 778
  • Location: the Everbrown part of the Evergreen State (WA)
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #144 on: May 31, 2018, 01:07:08 PM »
Seems like random luck much more than an evolution of market needs to me.

I guess we have different definitions of random.  There are usually reasons and logic for the changes in the market place.

While there may be reasons and logic for the changes in the market place, to a labor market participant, it may seem just as random as the stock market, for the same reasons.

A labor market participant is making a market-sector bet at best, and a single company bet at worst.

dustinst22

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2018, 01:22:59 PM »

While there may be reasons and logic for the changes in the market place, to a labor market participant, it may seem just as random as the stock market, for the same reasons.

A labor market participant is making a market-sector bet at best, and a single company bet at worst.

But the market place is not random.  We can see where there is demand, and can adjust our skillsets to meet that demand.  If it were random, people wouldn't invest countless amounts of money getting engineering, law, and medical degrees wondering if they should have majored in art history instead.  It is not a roll of the dice.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 01:29:55 PM by dustinst22 »

carolina822

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #146 on: May 31, 2018, 01:38:10 PM »
Sol 2020!

RWD

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2458
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #147 on: May 31, 2018, 01:47:04 PM »
This seems like a good place to put this link: 

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

How many slaves work for you?  (Hint: A LOT more than you think.)

Apparently if I'm like the average American then there are 11 billion slaves supporting the United States alone... Somehow I am skeptical of the results of that survey.

The quote I saw for that site on estimated worldwide slave populations was 11 million. Very different from 11 billion.

My point exactly. The number their site spits out for "my" slaves doesn't pass a mathematical sniff test and is grossly exaggerated. Maybe there really are ~30 slaves involved in creating products I use, but then they are also working for a thousand other people too. If I was never born there wouldn't be 30 less slaves. More likely what it means is that I am [allegedly] directly responsible for 0.03 slaves. But that wouldn't be a very sensationalist number.

mak1277

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 747
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #148 on: May 31, 2018, 01:50:58 PM »
This seems like a good place to put this link: 

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

How many slaves work for you?  (Hint: A LOT more than you think.)

Apparently if I'm like the average American then there are 11 billion slaves supporting the United States alone... Somehow I am skeptical of the results of that survey.

The quote I saw for that site on estimated worldwide slave populations was 11 million. Very different from 11 billion.

I think he's referring to the arithmetic of "the average American is supported by x-number of slaves" times "total Americans" equals some number that is completely meaningless.

diapasoun

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1777
  • Location: California
Re: Modern Day Slavery
« Reply #149 on: May 31, 2018, 01:59:57 PM »
This seems like a good place to put this link: 

http://slaveryfootprint.org/

How many slaves work for you?  (Hint: A LOT more than you think.)

Apparently if I'm like the average American then there are 11 billion slaves supporting the United States alone... Somehow I am skeptical of the results of that survey.

The quote I saw for that site on estimated worldwide slave populations was 11 million. Very different from 11 billion.

My point exactly. The number their site spits out for "my" slaves doesn't pass a mathematical sniff test and is grossly exaggerated. Maybe there really are ~30 slaves involved in creating products I use, but then they are also working for a thousand other people too. If I was never born there wouldn't be 30 less slaves. More likely what it means is that I am [allegedly] directly responsible for 0.03 slaves. But that wouldn't be a very sensationalist number.

Ahhhhh that makes more sense.

I don't find it particularly misleading, but my take on it was "it took 23 slaves to produce the things I own" -- not that I am directly responsible for 23 slaves being held in slavery in perpetuity. I completely believe that 23 slaves were involved in the labor that it takes to mine materials for and then physically produce objects that I own -- like a smartphone, a laptop, and a car. I certainly do not believe that 23 slaves are slaves solely because I own a smartphone, a laptop, and a car.

I think my interpretation is reasonable, but looking at the info actually on the page at the end of that test, I think your interpretation is reasonable too (especially if someone had never seen the total estimated number of slaves worldwide on the front page, like if they'd just been linked straight to the test). It should be made way, way clearer on that page what they mean by "working for you," whether or not the clarified meaning has the same effect on someone's mind/heart.