MMM & Paula Pant and more - Divorces in FIRE leaders

[achvfi]

I heard the news on Afford anything podcast that Paula is divorced after 10 year marriage, you might have heard that MMM is divorced as well and came to know about few other breakups in blogger world. I felt sad listening to her mentioning she was going through and grieving over 2 years of divorce process. Must have been some tough situation.

Whats up with that.

I don't think its related to FI or RE in anyway, apparently 50% of marriages in US end up in divorces. I am wondering if any of you have thoughts about it.

[Paul der Krake]

Who are these people?

[Telecaster]

None of my business.

[SwordGuy]

A huge % of marriages end in divorce so it would be odd if none of the FIRE bloggers got a divorce.   

It's really none of our business as to the particulars.

[ysette9]

Sad, but like others have said, none of our business.

I expect divorced people striving for FIRE find it nice to see role models for themselves out there. This community can give thé impression that FIRE is only for straight, white, married, American, tech-y men when that really isn’t the case at all.

[a-scho]

I heard the news on Afford anything podcast that Paula is divorced after 10 year marriage

May I ask what podcast number it was?

[TomTX]

Whats up with that.

A successful FIRE blogger is going to be a bit obsessive and their life is going to be pretty public. MMM started out pretty private, but that eroded over time - now everyone knows his name, where he lives, where he hangs out at the co-working space, etc.

That can be problematic for some spouses. If you don't want to be public, don't want to have every expense scrutinized by thousands of people.... That would lead to significant tensions.

[chasesfish]

She comments about it at the end of #221 and put a big post on instagram about it.  JD Roth is divorced too, but I don't think there's any real correlation between FIRE and divorce. 

Lots of people get married in their 20s and decide they want something different when they are middle aged.  I imagine having a flexible job and / or not having a work distraction, if there are issues there they get vetted out quickly.  As someone who recently quit my job, if there were major tensions in my marriage they would come out *quickly* with all the time we are spending together now.

[Metalcat]

What kind of thoughts are you looking for?

Divorce is a very normal and extremely common thing.

[2Birds1Stone]

The #1 cause of divorce is marriage, not FIRE.

[Metalcat]

She comments about it at the end of #221 and put a big post on instagram about it.  JD Roth is divorced too, but I don't think there's any real correlation between FIRE and divorce. 

There actually could be, but maybe not the way that people think.

For a lot of couples, the driving force that pushes them to try and work through their marital difficulties is the financial impact that would come from divorce.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone seriously contemplate divorce, only to walk it back and commit to couples counseling once they figured out that they would have to give up their nice house and move to a basement apartment.

I've seen "he's the one who cheated, I shouldn't have to permanently lower my standard of living!" evolve into a will to forgive and move forward.

If someone can readily afford a divorce and either doesn't have to think about or isn't afraid of a lifestyle change, then they lack a HUGE source of pressure to try and make things work when things get really really hard.

An additional missing pressure is the fear of being judged. Most FIRE people, especially the public figures, are used to being judged harshly for their life choices.

I've seen a ton of intense fear around the scrutiny and embarrassment of divorce. Fear of judgement alone has motivated plenty of people to really knuckle down and try to ride through a marital rough patch.

That's two major pressures to stay together that are missing for wealthier FIRE folks. So, in a way, the freedom that FIRE provides may extend to a greater freedom to choose divorce.

[Focus_on_the_fire]

She comments about it at the end of #221 and put a big post on instagram about it.  JD Roth is divorced too, but I don't think there's any real correlation between FIRE and divorce. 

There actually could be, but maybe not the way that people think.

For a lot of couples, the driving force that pushes them to try and work through their marital difficulties is the financial impact that would come from divorce.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone seriously contemplate divorce, only to walk it back and commit to couples counseling once they figured out that they would have to give up their nice house and move to a basement apartment.

I've seen "he's the one who cheated, I shouldn't have to permanently lower my standard of living!" evolve into a will to forgive and move forward.

If someone can readily afford a divorce and either doesn't have to think about or isn't afraid of a lifestyle change, then they lack a HUGE source of pressure to try and make things work when things get really really hard.

An additional missing pressure is the fear of being judged. Most FIRE people, especially the public figures, are used to being judged harshly for their life choices.

I've seen a ton of intense fear around the scrutiny and embarrassment of divorce. Fear of judgement alone has motivated plenty of people to really knuckle down and try to ride through a marital rough patch.

That's two major pressures to stay together that are missing for wealthier FIRE folks. So, in a way, the freedom that FIRE provides may extend to a greater freedom to choose divorce.

I agree. Ultimately, I think it's better for everyone concerned to have money not be a factor. You have a better shot at having two people go on to happier lives rather than stay together because they can't afford to split.

[NotJen]

I am wondering if any of you have thoughts about it.

Divorce is awesome!  Sure, it’s a hard thing to go through, not easy by any means, and not to be taken lightly.  But it’s the best thing I’ve ever done.  I’m happy we have a means of dissolving a contract that is no longer beneficial to both parties.

[partgypsy]

I have a lot of thoughts about this some may be valid, some may not be. I think some people do stay together because splitting is such a big change not just in finances but overall lifestyle and a certain community. In general I see fire folks as not caring about conventional things as much, so losing those things as not as important. They may also be in a mindset of questioning conventional wisdom, as well as "relentless optimization" that can test or even cause questioning of existing relationships.  And no matter who you are, money (as well as free time/freedom) is power. People are drawn to that. So despite ones best intentions it's honestly a risk factor. Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated. Of course I would not suggest people stay in a deeply unhappy or abusive relationship. I've worked with a lot of older people. Hundreds, maybe thousands over my career. Met many people I admired and all around well developed humans were in happy and long-lived marriages. To me it seemed a feature, not a bug. Or maybe I'm just an old person trapped in a middle aged body.

[ontheway2]

She comments about it at the end of #221 and put a big post on instagram about it.  JD Roth is divorced too, but I don't think there's any real correlation between FIRE and divorce. 

There actually could be, but maybe not the way that people think.

For a lot of couples, the driving force that pushes them to try and work through their marital difficulties is the financial impact that would come from divorce.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone seriously contemplate divorce, only to walk it back and commit to couples counseling once they figured out that they would have to give up their nice house and move to a basement apartment.

I've seen "he's the one who cheated, I shouldn't have to permanently lower my standard of living!" evolve into a will to forgive and move forward.

If someone can readily afford a divorce and either doesn't have to think about or isn't afraid of a lifestyle change, then they lack a HUGE source of pressure to try and make things work when things get really really hard.

An additional missing pressure is the fear of being judged. Most FIRE people, especially the public figures, are used to being judged harshly for their life choices.

I've seen a ton of intense fear around the scrutiny and embarrassment of divorce. Fear of judgement alone has motivated plenty of people to really knuckle down and try to ride through a marital rough patch.

That's two major pressures to stay together that are missing for wealthier FIRE folks. So, in a way, the freedom that FIRE provides may extend to a greater freedom to choose divorce.

I agree. Ultimately, I think it's better for everyone concerned to have money not be a factor. You have a better shot at having two people go on to happier lives rather than stay together because they can't afford to split.

Yes. My ex and I should have never been married. While I am behind by MMM standards and would be better off financially married, this lifestyle allowed me to escape a toxic relationship. I had money saved to retain a good lawyer and protect myself and my kids while also feeling relatively financially secure. My current situation is much better than if I had never found MMM whether I'd be divorced and broke or still married and miserable to pay the bills

[Bateaux]

Keeping my spouse happy and our marriage healthy is as important a FIRE goal as any.  We started with nothing, just like most of those here.  No relationship is perfect, but luckily ours is worth the effort.  On the contrary, if you are miserable it's best to end it and move forward.   Good luck to you all.

[mathlete]

Sometimes it just doesn’t work out I guess.

I think maybe it rings a little louder in the FIRE community because getting paired up with a likeminded life partner and their like-magnitude paycheck is such a huge part of many people’s paths to financial independence.

But yeah. Sometimes it doesn’t work out. Not sure I have much commentary except to say that I hope divorce becomes less stigmatized. Sometimes a marriage is bad from the start, but oftentimes it’s just something that made sense for a period of time, but now no longer makes sense. I hope for the best for everybody.

[Metalcat]

I have a lot of thoughts about this some may be valid, some may not be. I think some people do stay together because splitting is such a big change not just in finances but overall lifestyle and a certain community. In general I see fire folks as not caring about conventional things as much, so losing those things as not as important. They may also be in a mindset of questioning conventional wisdom, as well as "relentless optimization" that can test or even cause questioning of existing relationships.  And no matter who you are, money (as well as free time/freedom) is power. People are drawn to that. So despite ones best intentions it's honestly a risk factor. Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated. Of course I would not suggest people stay in a deeply unhappy or abusive relationship. I've worked with a lot of older people. Hundreds, maybe thousands over my career. Met many people I admired and all around well developed humans were in happy and long-lived marriages. To me it seemed a feature, not a bug. Or maybe I'm just an old person trapped in a middle aged body.

A lot of research points to people being far more romantic about marriage now than ever before.

I don't think people take marriage less seriously, but I do think they take the social pressure to stay married less seriously, which I think is a good thing.

Granted, I'm someone who doesn't equate a marriage lasting with a marriage being good.

I know very very VERY few long term marriages that I would actually want to emulate.

[NotJen]

That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I'm pretty sure infidelity has been around since the beginning of time, and is, in fact, pretty old-fashioned.

I don't agree with your description of current culture.  Everyone is wired differently, and that's okay.

I don't think people take marriage less seriously, but I do think they take the social pressure to stay married less seriously, which I think is a good thing.

A-freaking-men.

[BECABECA]

I think there’s probably a correlation, but I think it’s probably a good thing. In addition to FIREees lacking the financial and social conformity pressures that @Malkynn pointed out, there’s also the focusing on what makes you really happy and optimizing your life in the FIRE community. And when you’re FIRE’d, you finally have time to analyze that and try to make improvements. And you still have half your life ahead of you so you don’t feel like it’s too late to want to try. If I was instead retiring at 65, I’d have a lot of fear that I didn’t have enough time left to find somebody better suited and I’d spend my final years without any companionship.

I’ve been married for over 15 years, FIRE’d a little over two years ago, and have never considered divorce until about 6 months ago. We’re finally focusing on trying to improve our relationship after realizing there were some pretty glaring issues that we just kicked down the road when we were both busy with our careers. I feel like we are learning so much about how to be a good partner in working through this process. I’m not sure where we’ll end up a year from now, but I’m pretty confident that whether we decide to stay together or get divorced, we will both be happier.

[Schaefer Light]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

[EvenSteven]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

[undercover]

I'd say in general being broke keeps people together. Money creates options if you were someone who came from little means before. I mean the divorce rate is 50% for your first marriage so I'm sure there are many more factors but still.

I think there are many downsides to being "FIRE" or chasing FIRE as an idea that just aren't discussed because they aren't as well known. Creating too many options for yourself can actually turn against you. You have to know when enough is enough but that's hard for super ambitious people who always want to take it the extra mile.

[ysette9]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

I’ve actually heard that the research shows that it is sort of the opposite. People value marriage more than never now. Which means that marriage happens after we achieve certain life milestones and not before, which in turn means marriage gets delayed for my generation. We need to first graduate from college and get a good job and buy a house. When those things are harder than ever, to do, marriage gets delayed.

Additionally it used to be that the expectations of marriage were different. More utilitarian, so you speak. I still see this in the people I know who are very traditional in culture from other countries. It is a duty to form a stable family to raise and support kids. My in-laws certainly didn’t have the deep emotionally fulfilling relationship that my husband and I have; they never had a concept of marriage providing that kind of emotional fulfillment in life. Nowadays we expect our partner to support us emotionally and spiritually and for us to have fun together and be best friends, in addition to forming a stable financial and family unit. That is a lot to ask and not every marriage can live up to it, for better or for worse.

[Schaefer Light]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Okay, then.  What are acceptable reasons for divorce?

[Imma]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

The difficulty is finding out whether you are just going through an unhappy period or if it's a permanent situation. I have two sets of grandparents who were married for half a century each. One set had a difficult decade because of stressful things that happened in their life that they had difficulty coping with. Things eventually got better and they had many happy years together after that. My other grandparents experienced similar stressful situations and hated each other until death.

My grandparents were of the generation that didn't divorce, but if they had lived in this century, either one may have gotten divorced. How do you truly know wether your marriage is completely beyond fixable, that it doesn't get better after a decade of unhappiness? And is an unhappy decade a price worth paying to save a marriage?

I am unmarried but have been in a legal partnership for 6 years now. I never promised 'till death do us part' and I never will. My love will never be unconditional because that would be deeply toxic. Because we are financially not dependent on each other, we are both making the active choice every day to stay together. It's not a relationship of convenience. To me that's more romantic than sticking with somebody because you promised it years ago, a Paradise by the dashboard light situation.

[Mr. Green]

FIRE can be an incredibly difficult transition, both as an individual and as a couple. Not only are you leaving a job/career that has likely become a part of your identity, you suddenly have an abundance of time to fill. All that free time likely means spending more of it with your spouse. Some folks may find that spending most all of their time with their spouse is not tolerable. It can be a struggle not only to find yourself, but how to create a happy life as a couple with essentially unlimited time to spend together. For some, it exposes incompatible areas that people aren't able to find a way to work around.

[Schaefer Light]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

The difficulty is finding out whether you are just going through an unhappy period or if it's a permanent situation.

That's true.  I just think the pendulum has shifted too far in the direction of seeking the quick fix.  And people need to get over this notion that your spouse is supposed to make you happy.  You make you happy.

[chasesfish]

FIRE can be an incredibly difficult transition, both as an individual and as a couple. Not only are you leaving a job/career that has likely become a part of your identity, you suddenly have an abundance of time to fill. All that free time likely means spending more of it with your spouse. Some folks may find that spending most all of their time with their spouse is not tolerable. It can be a struggle not only to find yourself, but how to create a happy life as a couple with essentially unlimited time to spend together. For some, it exposes incompatible areas that people aren't able to find a way to work around.

+1

[RetiredAt63]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

The difficulty is finding out whether you are just going through an unhappy period or if it's a permanent situation.

That's true.  I just think the pendulum has shifted too far in the direction of seeking the quick fix.  And people need to get over this notion that your spouse is supposed to make you happy.  You make you happy.

A spouse can't make you happy, but the wrong spouse can sure make you unhappy.  Historically women stayed in bad marriages because they had no other options.

[BECABECA]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Okay, then.  What are acceptable reasons for divorce?

Um, how about abuse for an obvious one? Your line of thinking is the reason my mom stayed married for way too long, her church leaders kept this hard line on the “‘til death do us part” portion of the vows but completely ignored the rest of the vows, like “honor and cherish”

[EvenSteven]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Okay, then.  What are acceptable reasons for divorce?

I'm honestly having a little trouble coming up with unacceptable reasons for divorce. "Because I want a divorce" is a good enough reason for me.

[achvfi]

I heard the news on Afford anything podcast that Paula is divorced after 10 year marriage

May I ask what podcast number it was?

Episode #221. She has special segment at the end mentioning what she is going through.

[achvfi]

What kind of thoughts are you looking for?

Divorce is a very normal and extremely common thing.

I am interested in what are the blindsides we need to keep tabs on in journey in this community.

Lots of very interesting discussion already in the thread. Interesting comments from @BECABECA and @Mr Green after FIREed experiences. Folks should keep in mind, there will be challenging hidden relationship aspects that might come to forefront with major change like FIRE.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

What kind of thoughts are you looking for?

Divorce is a very normal and extremely common thing.

I am interested in what are the blindsides we need to keep tabs on in journey in this community.

Lots of very interesting discussion already in the thread. Interesting comments from @BECABECA and @Mr Green after FIREed experiences. Folks should keep in mind, there will be challenging hidden relationship aspects that might come to forefront with major change like FIRE.

I definitely think, even in ER, my SO and I will need to have our own independent lives.  Maybe more time together than now, but I don't think it's healthy to spend too much time with any one person, no matter how much you love them.  This will be the toughest part of ER to transition through, something we never really had to think about pre-ER.

Also, in FI, you both have a lot of options.  Differences in opinions or a shift on what to do with money could get quite complicated.  Hopefully we have that figured out and nothing crazy pops up.  It's sort of like the situation where you give your kids an allowance and then they want to blow it all on candy, only now you can blow it on candy and actually afford it, but it's still something I wouldn't want my wife to spend $20/week on... 

[Mr. Green]

ER has not been a problem for me wife and I at all, though we very much have our own interests as individuals that each of us pursue with some of our time. We still spend more time in each other's company but not necessarily working on activities together. I'm the kind of person that needs my space at times, and my wife understands that so our marriage is just as strong, if not stronger, than before we stopped working. If she was the kind of person to be oblivious to that and not want to give me space then ER would probably have become a problem for us. But we're high school sweethearts so we know everything about each other and our families. There aren't any surprises that ER would drive out of the woodwork.

[partgypsy]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

I’ve actually heard that the research shows that it is sort of the opposite. People value marriage more than never now. Which means that marriage happens after we achieve certain life milestones and not before, which in turn means marriage gets delayed for my generation. We need to first graduate from college and get a good job and buy a house. When those things are harder than ever, to do, marriage gets delayed.

Additionally it used to be that the expectations of marriage were different. More utilitarian, so you speak. I still see this in the people I know who are very traditional in culture from other countries. It is a duty to form a stable family to raise and support kids. My in-laws certainly didn’t have the deep emotionally fulfilling relationship that my husband and I have; they never had a concept of marriage providing that kind of emotional fulfillment in life. Nowadays we expect our partner to support us emotionally and spiritually and for us to have fun together and be best friends, in addition to forming a stable financial and family unit. That is a lot to ask and not every marriage can live up to it, for better or for worse.

I don't see that as "value" more that people may attach unrealistic expectations to marriage. I mean, my aunt and uncle were in an arranged marriage, I think they met each other twice before deciding to get married. And they have what I would consider a successful marriage. Financially supporting him having a business, raising their family, grandkids. I mean I don't know if they have a successful marriage in terms of western values as I can't read their minds and know if they are romantically "in love"  but they seem to enjoy each others company, yet spend time apart and keep active.

I do think it is GOOD that women do not have to stay in abusive or deeply unhappy marriages. But it does seem that marriage as a construct is not really viable if people have a non-commital attitude towards it.

Someone mentioned 50% divorce rate for first time marriages. It's bad but not that bad. It's lower but difficult to calculate since it is estimated by rates of divorce and re-marriage.  No matter how you cut it the statistics are pretty grim, if your intention is to grow old with someone.

[Metalcat]

^ US divorce rates have actually dropped precipitously among millenials in the US

Although, I doubt lower divorce rates have much to do with people's values with respect to marriage and A LOT to do with millenial debt levels.

I think most people are still pretty serious about marriage and I don't think they take divorce very lightly. At least not enough to materially alter the statistics compared to major financial factors.

[maizefolk]

Although, I doubt lower divorce rates have much to do with people's values with respect to marriage and A LOT to do with millenial debt levels.

More optimistically, some of the decline in divorce rates is attributable to people waiting longer and having a better sense of themselves and their goals (both as an individual and with a partner) and what makes for a sustainable relationship.

The odds of a marriage ending in divorce decline significantly for people who get married in the second half of their 20s vs the first half.  Median age at first marriage for millenials is something like 28 years old. For gen x is was about 26 and for baby boomers 22-23.

On top of that, fewer people are getting married in the past. Hopefully part of that is people who realize that they're just not a good fit for spending their whole life with a partner feel less social or personal pressure to try to do so anyway.

[popcornflying]

I heard the news on Afford anything podcast that Paula is divorced after 10 year marriage, you might have heard that MMM is divorced as well and came to know about few other breakups in blogger world. I felt sad listening to her mentioning she was going through and grieving over 2 years of divorce process. Must have been some tough situation.

Whats up with that.

I don't think its related to FI or RE in anyway, apparently 50% of marriages in US end up in divorces. I am wondering if any of you have thoughts about it.

Well, a lot of FIREy types have perfectionist streaks, and perfectionism can be damaging to relationships. The obsession with optimizing every decision causes unneeded stress imo. Also black and white thinking. Speaking from experience. My partner is extremely skilled at criticizing me in the gentlest of ways, and talking me down from the ledge. :)

But who knows with these particular couples... one of them could have sneezed and hit their head, developed Capgras syndrome, and they had to break up. Sometimes it's just luck and there's nothing you can do. You flip a coin when you get married.

[Schaefer Light]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Okay, then.  What are acceptable reasons for divorce?

I'm honestly having a little trouble coming up with unacceptable reasons for divorce. "Because I want a divorce" is a good enough reason for me.

My point exactly.

[87tweetybirds]

What kind of thoughts are you looking for?

Divorce is a very normal and extremely common thing.

I am interested in what are the blindsides we need to keep tabs on in journey in this community.

Lots of very interesting discussion already in the thread. Interesting comments from @BECABECA and @Mr Green after FIREed experiences. Folks should keep in mind, there will be challenging hidden relationship aspects that might come to forefront with major change like FIRE.

I definitely think, even in ER, my SO and I will need to have our own independent lives.  Maybe more time together than now, but I don't think it's healthy to spend too much time with any one person, no matter how much you love them.  This will be the toughest part of ER to transition through, something we never really had to think about pre-ER.
Clip

I love my children dearly, but need time away from them. Same with all the people in my life. I love them, and enjoy spending some time with them, but after a while I need alone time. I know this now before retirement. I think a part of any successful relationship is recognizing that individuals need individual time. It’s great to have hobbies you do together, but you should also have hobbies you do separate. I read a study about couples that said a couple is less likely to separate if they each have friends that aren’t “couple friends”, and they spend time with those friends (so ladies night and guys night actually contribute to long term relationship happiness).
I think that goes along those lines of the people who say why would i want to retire early, then I’ll be bored/I’ll just die etc. They need a hobby that calls them.

[Zikoris]

I wonder sometimes about the "publicity factor" for couples where only one of them is really active publicly. A lot of times it seems like spouse gets dragged though the mud in comment sections/online, even if they literally are not involved in the public side at all. I could see that being really uncomfortable for someone who maybe never wanted to be a public figure in the first place, but is sort of dragged into the limelight by surprise. This would be one area where a couple would have an advantage if they were both fairly public and involved (like the couple behind Millennial Revolution), versus one of them being the driving force.

[mathlete]

I don't think people take marriage less seriously, but I do think they take the social pressure to stay married less seriously, which I think is a good thing.

Yep. I know two silent generation folks who have been in a bad marriage for decades now. But they're still technically married.

[DadJokes]

It would be silly to think that FIRE has anything to do with it, since Paula Pant probably works more than most people who aren't FI.

People get divorced; that's life. Unfortunately, 'til death do we part is a lot harder than the vast majority of people can comprehend. Myself included.

Edit: That doesn't mean I think people should never get divorced. In my case, the only instances where I would consider divorce (off the top of my head) are abuse and infidelity.

[Metalcat]

I don't think people take marriage less seriously, but I do think they take the social pressure to stay married less seriously, which I think is a good thing.

Yep. I know two silent generation folks who have been in a bad marriage for decades now. But they're still technically married.

Yep.

I work in finance. You have no idea how many older couples can barely tolerate each other but stay together because they aren't willing to try and live off of half of their nest egg.

So as much as I don't really see FIRE as a risk for divorce, I absolutely see divorce as a risk for FIRE/retirement in general, if the best egg isn't big enough to split.

[obstinate]

Divorce is awesome!  Sure, it’s a hard thing to go through, not easy by any means, and not to be taken lightly.  But it’s the best thing I’ve ever done.  I’m happy we have a means of dissolving a contract that is no longer beneficial to both parties.

+1 The only kind of marriages that end in divorce are unhappy ones.

[mm1970]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Okay, then.  What are acceptable reasons for divorce?

Not wanting to be married anymore.

[Adam Zapple]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Our vows did as well.

My wife and I were discussing religion the other day and she told me that if I don't believe in God then I won't be with her in heaven when we die.  I told her I never signed up for that anyway.  Death ends our contract. 

Never sign a contract without an end date.  :)

[DadJokes]

Overall though it's just my impression that belief or value of marriage has gone way down. I guess part of me is really old fashioned and identifies more with people of an older generation. That current culture is everything is disposable, me first culture, and things like fidelity, monogamy, humility, compromise, repairing vs replacing is seen as old fashioned or even outdated.

I agree.  I believe too many people give up way too easily on their marriages.  It's as if they're only committed to the marriage so long as they're happy.  What they don't seem to realize is that most people go through periods of being unhappy (or even depressed), and that it's a totally natural thing and doesn't mean you need a divorce.  The vows do say "til death do us part".

Maybe your vows did. Mine didn't. And I'm quite glad that if either my wife or I want out of the marriage, neither of us has to die.

Our vows did as well.

My wife and I were discussing religion the other day and she told me that if I don't believe in God then I won't be with her in heaven when we die.  I told her I never signed up for that anyway.  Death ends our contract. 

Never sign a contract without an end date.  :)

That's a great response. I'll have to store it away for future use, should my wife ever use that argument.