Less is best?

[jleo]

I am ranting.... but sometimes I feel as if I am never satisfied with what I have and always am pushing for more more more, sometimes I think about would I rather make 30k a year and not have as nice of things and live stress free or make 150k a year and live a very stressful life with nice things....anyone else have experience with something like this I am getting pulled in both directions and not sure which one I want.

[undercover]

Have you read the blog? The purpose of a $150k job is to stash as much of it as possible away so that any job in general become optional.

[jleo]

Have you read the blog? The purpose of a $150k job is to stash as much of it as possible away so that any job in general become optional.

Yes I have.. well a majority of it. I have enough to live a very minimalist life at 30k but am just stuck on always wanting more so I am not sure I would be satisfied with 30k a year lifestyle. The other problem is the GF is not even close to early retiring and can't save a dime and that worries me.

[Gimesalot]

Have you read the blog? The purpose of a $150k job is to stash as much of it as possible away so that any job in general become optional.

Yes I have.. well a majority of it. I have enough to live a very minimalist life at 30k but am just stuck on always wanting more so I am not sure I would be satisfied with 30k a year lifestyle. The other problem is the GF is not even close to early retiring and can't save a dime and that worries me.

I can sort of relate.  I was making just a little less than $150k and saw all of the things that my friends had, and it made me want to take more vacations, and buy nicer things.  In the end, though, my savings have put me in a position where I no longer have to work, and I am now the envy of my friends.  The greatest takeaway from MMM, for me, was that material things don't buy happiness.  Being free to choose is happiness, and in many ways, material possessions limit your choice.

[EnjoyIt]

Have you read the blog? The purpose of a $150k job is to stash as much of it as possible away so that any job in general become optional.

Yes I have.. well a majority of it. I have enough to live a very minimalist life at 30k but am just stuck on always wanting more so I am not sure I would be satisfied with 30k a year lifestyle. The other problem is the GF is not even close to early retiring and can't save a dime and that worries me.

I can sort of relate.  I was making just a little less than $150k and saw all of the things that my friends had, and it made me want to take more vacations, and buy nicer things.  In the end, though, my savings have put me in a position where I no longer have to work, and I am now the envy of my friends.  The greatest takeaway from MMM, for me, was that material things don't buy happiness.  Being free to choose is happiness, and in many ways, material possessions limit your choice.

Material possessions require maintenance, cleaning, repair, and eventually replacement.
* When a fancy car gets a scratch you must repair it.  When an old car gets scratched you shrug your shoulders.
* When you have a large house you spend more time cleaning it and spend more time working to pay for utilities.  A smaller home saves you time and money.
* When you break fine china you get upset and may look online for a replacement item.  When you break a dish from a mismatched set you just clean it up.

I see many people where their possessions own them and that is not a happy and fulfilling way to live.

[PhilB]

I can completely relate to how you are feeling - I frequently have the same thoughts myself.  The fallacy is thinking that the increased spending would really make that much difference to your happiness.  If not being able to afford say as nice a car as the next person makes you unhappy, then you could drop your savings rate, keep working longer and get that better car.  But there will always be someone with an even nicer car, or three different cars and a nice garage to keep them in, etc, etc, etc.  If you get caught up it's a never-ending treadmill.  You (and I) need to keep reminding yourself of this.  Are those 'nice things' really going to make you happier than having extra time to spend curled up with a good book and a cup of coffee?  On a sunny day would you rather be driving a fancy car to the office or going for a walk?

[nemesis]

Hmmm I must be doing this wrong then.  I make over $150k per year and I have less stress than some friends who make $30k per year.

At my level of income, I have total control over my schedule, my priorities, my work, even my location.  My friends who make $30k or less per year, have zero control over their schedule, their work priorities, and where they physically must work.

If you think making a lot of money is going to be terrible, it will be terrible for you.  Your mind validates what your biases are.

[PhilB]

Hmmm I must be doing this wrong then.  I make over $150k per year and I have less stress than some friends who make $30k per year.

At my level of income, I have total control over my schedule, my priorities, my work, even my location.  My friends who make $30k or less per year, have zero control over their schedule, their work priorities, and where they physically must work.

If you think making a lot of money is going to be terrible, it will be terrible for you.  Your mind validates what your biases are.

I think the real point here is that there is no automatic link in either direction between income and stress level.  I doubt anyone believes that earning more money automatically means more stress, but in many organisations to get more money you have to take on more responsibility and many people find that stressful.  Congratulations if you have found a situation where that isn't the case for you.
Earning less doesn't automatically mean more stress either - unless you're not FI and don't have the ability to go find a different job you enjoy if the current one goes bad.  Being told where to go and what to do when can be very relaxing in some circumstances!

[Just Joe]

You need to find your financial balance point. For us it was alot more money (our yardstick) but pretty average things. We won't retire in our 30s but we will retire comfortably from jobs that haven't been all that stressful. We do have plenty of savings and our retirement plans are fully funded. What we found was having savings brought us more happiness than shiny things that we'd certainly worry too much about.

We figured this out while our kids were young. We could flip out every time junior had a spill (like people we know) or we could accept that the baby was more important to us than the rug now many years old. Clean it up, don't psychologically scar the kid over spilled milk, and happy family life continues. Consequently we have a nice place to live but it isn't very big compared to the Joneses and "Better Home and Garden" have never showed up for a magazine photo shoot. We keep it clean but nobody will ever be impressed with our things. And that is fine.

When we were making $30K we always felt our finances were very delicate. It would be okay if nothing broke or one of us didn't get sick or if we could find the next job before the current one became unbearable. There seemed to be alot of competition for those jobs b/c anyone could do them. So we began schooling ourselves (military, DIY, university, multiple degrees in the end) and came out the other side making good money many years later. Much more autonomy at our jobs. Much more "flex" in what/when/how we do our work.

I recommend you work towards a trade or university degree. Consider an enlistment in the military (Navy, CG or Air force). Will require alot of long term thinking. Like a marathon run - not sprinting to the finish line but pacing yourself. Make choices that don't impede this pace - aka debt, unstable relationships, walking away from jobs when you can't afford to do so, self-destructive habits, etc. Read, read, read the books suggested in the various forum discussions here.

[FI4good]

How much is enough ?

[big_slacker]

I think at the 30k level the issue is you might not have the financial resilience to weather unexpected events/expenses either positive or negative. Car breaking down and not being able to afford a fix, that putting your job in jeopardy, etc. Or the flip side, chance to do a once in a lifetime trip and just need airfare but you can't swing it.

I think sometimes the responsibility/stress thing for higher level jobs is too simplistic. Speaking from experience, there are higher expectations and responsibilities. But your skill level and experience should be at the level where this is normal for you. And there is usually greater autonomy, respect, flexibility, job satisfaction and generally a better working environment. This isn't always 100% true, but for me it's been overwhelmingly the norm. I would not go back to a $30k day job, if $30k was my target I'd do it with a really limited consulting schedule of the same type of work I do 9-5 now. For the same reasons.

All of this boils down to choosing a job that positively impacts as many areas of your life as possible, not just the 'no thought/stress' area.

[undercover]

Have you read the blog? The purpose of a $150k job is to stash as much of it as possible away so that any job in general become optional.

Yes I have.. well a majority of it. I have enough to live a very minimalist life at 30k but am just stuck on always wanting more so I am not sure I would be satisfied with 30k a year lifestyle. The other problem is the GF is not even close to early retiring and can't save a dime and that worries me.

I think presenting the two options you have as the only ones is a bit of a false dichotomy. There is definitely either some middle ground or very high paying jobs that aren't as stressful as some low paying jobs.

Clearly everyone has to battle the concept of "enough" and find out what's right for them (though it's actually less about the individual and more about their mindset). Concepts mentioned in the blog like stoicism and self-sufficiency coupled with focusing on efficiency certainly help you reach "enough" sooner than later. When you're able to recognize the sheer amount of waste in everyone's lives and in your own as well, you become less likely to tolerate doing bullshit that you don't want for money you realize you don't need. So thus the primary purpose of making more money becomes so you can dramatically increase savings rate to hit your goals faster.

And, this has just been my experience, but you WILL spend less while not working than while working. There are so many compensatory things you're probably doing that you don't even realize to tolerate the grind that once you have a ton of free time to yourself, your priorities will likely change dramatically. You can most likely throw your plans out the door safely, in other words, because you have no idea what your life will be like in 5 years after quitting something you're tired of.

But, back to your primary concern - if those are your only two options, then you take the option that's healthiest for you EVERY TIME, 10/10 times. You will be much poorer in the long-run if you continue living your life thinking that making the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time is the best use of your time.

[DrumAllDay]

FWIW I did a complete career change right out of college from the business/marketing field to a job in the trades. I graduated with my business degree but after working a few internships I realized I would hate this career. Luckily I had several summers worth of experience with a trade job and decided to pursue that and have been working there ever since.

Best decision I have ever made. Yes I am making, probably significantly, less money over the long haul of a career, but I love my work/life balance and I just enjoy the work much more. I am also able to pursue some side businesses and work that have made me a little extra money.

To me, work/life balance and low stress levels are more important than a high salary. I just have to flex my frugality muscle more and I am still financially ahead of most of my friends who make more money than I do.

[ThatGuy]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

[ketchup]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

I'd second questioning this assumption.  I only make ~40k (70k total household) but every step up in income has been down in stress.

"You're not your fucking khakis." applies regardless of income level.  It's also much "easier" to do the more frugal option when it's a choice rather than necessity.

[jim555]

The OP - Stop being a consumer sucka, break the mind lock!

[inline five]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

I'd second questioning this assumption.  I only make ~40k (70k total household) but every step up in income has been down in stress.

"You're not your fucking khakis." applies regardless of income level.  It's also much "easier" to do the more frugal option when it's a choice rather than necessity.

A $30k lifestyle on a $150k income is stress free.
A $30k lifestyle on a $30k income is stress-ful.

I've been in both scenarios and my life was infinitely better making more money. Money solves a lot of life's problems.

[nemesis]

What a stressful day today!!  I slept in until 11am, woke up, had a light snack, checked email, then went to the gym to workout, run errands.  Back to emails and working on my project for a few hours, before I go see a movie tonight with my monthly Moviepass membership.

Man, it's so tough making over $150k, I tell you!!  Too much stress!!

[bestname]

A good lesson for life is not to be suckered by your wants and your don't wants. They are never ending and they are typically not in your long-term interest. Most of them will pass within a few minutes or days at the most and they serve only to distract you from a truly meaningful life which is made up primarily of connections with people and satisfying accomplishments.

[jleo]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

I'd second questioning this assumption.  I only make ~40k (70k total household) but every step up in income has been down in stress.

"You're not your fucking khakis." applies regardless of income level.  It's also much "easier" to do the more frugal option when it's a choice rather than necessity.

A $30k lifestyle on a $150k income is stress free.
A $30k lifestyle on a $30k income is stress-ful.

I've been in both scenarios and my life was infinitely better making more money. Money solves a lot of life's problems.

Let me be a little more clear on this as I would be making 30k a year stress free because I would be 90% fire I would do some work about 5 hours a week helping out at a family business but would be giving up my business which is what is doing 150k and giving me the daily headaches.

I just feel like 5 more years will go by and I am still stuck hating what I do, tomorrow is not guaranteed and I just feel I am wasting life if not doing what I enjoy even if it means making substantially less. Now my other half is saying no no keep going push to be even better and make more and grind harder but I feel that side is the side that makes me miserable.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

I think it's normal to want. As long as you grant yourself your needs, your wants will eventually take care of themselves. Maybe you could do an adult version of handling kid's wants - get them to write it in a book or put it on a mood board. They're all constantly updated and getting swapped in and out. It's a good way to remind yourself that wants are only transient. If it stays on your mood board (or pinterest) for longer than a year, maybe buy it!

[big_slacker]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

I'd second questioning this assumption.  I only make ~40k (70k total household) but every step up in income has been down in stress.

"You're not your fucking khakis." applies regardless of income level.  It's also much "easier" to do the more frugal option when it's a choice rather than necessity.

A $30k lifestyle on a $150k income is stress free.
A $30k lifestyle on a $30k income is stress-ful.

I've been in both scenarios and my life was infinitely better making more money. Money solves a lot of life's problems.

Let me be a little more clear on this as I would be making 30k a year stress free because I would be 90% fire I would do some work about 5 hours a week helping out at a family business but would be giving up my business which is what is doing 150k and giving me the daily headaches.

I just feel like 5 more years will go by and I am still stuck hating what I do, tomorrow is not guaranteed and I just feel I am wasting life if not doing what I enjoy even if it means making substantially less. Now my other half is saying no no keep going push to be even better and make more and grind harder but I feel that side is the side that makes me miserable.

Have you looked into selling the biz? Proceeds might be enough to push you over the edge for FI and move to part time.

My wife also loves to see me work and succeed. But I also have no problems with boundaries and personal happiness. Our talks might not always be comfortable but they're always honest. Sounds like you need to have a sit down.

[BTDretire]

Hmmm I must be doing this wrong then.  I make over $150k per year and I have less stress than some friends who make $30k per year.

At my level of income, I have total control over my schedule, my priorities, my work, even my location.  My friends who make $30k or less per year, have zero control over their schedule, their work priorities, and where they physically must work.

If you think making a lot of money is going to be terrible, it will be terrible for you.  Your mind validates what your biases are.

  You stated what I was thinking, stress comes from how you think about each individual situation.

[jleo]

Do you really think that making 30K a year is stress free?

I'd second questioning this assumption.  I only make ~40k (70k total household) but every step up in income has been down in stress.

"You're not your fucking khakis." applies regardless of income level.  It's also much "easier" to do the more frugal option when it's a choice rather than necessity.

A $30k lifestyle on a $150k income is stress free.
A $30k lifestyle on a $30k income is stress-ful.

I've been in both scenarios and my life was infinitely better making more money. Money solves a lot of life's problems.

Let me be a little more clear on this as I would be making 30k a year stress free because I would be 90% fire I would do some work about 5 hours a week helping out at a family business but would be giving up my business which is what is doing 150k and giving me the daily headaches.

I just feel like 5 more years will go by and I am still stuck hating what I do, tomorrow is not guaranteed and I just feel I am wasting life if not doing what I enjoy even if it means making substantially less. Now my other half is saying no no keep going push to be even better and make more and grind harder but I feel that side is the side that makes me miserable.

Um...

Your problem isn’t wanting more, your problem is that you aren’t happy with your life and you have a partner who is pushing you to be even more unhappy with your life, which means they either don’t understand what is going on with you, or they don’t care. Neither of which are ideal.

This isn’t about wanting to spend. Wanting to spend is a symptom of dissatisfaction.
If you are happy and emotionally and physically healthy, frugality usually feels like the most natural thing. Consumer spending isn’t usually very satisfying for happy people. Buying shit is a bandaid response for feeling crappy and miserable. It’s a drive to make all of the miserable effort feel “worth it” to see some kind of pay off for all of your daily grind and headaches.

Look closely at your life and start communicating with your other half, because this level of of life dissatisfaction is an emergency.

I might have confused you when I said my other half, I was not meaning my partner I was meaning my other half of myself is pushing me one way the other half is pushing me the other. But I can still take away a lot said here regardless. My partner is not on the same mindset as me though and her excuse for not saving is she does not make enough to save yet I pay for 95% of everything, in reality she is just not good with money and when I bring this up it never ends well as she gets very defensive about it.

[use2betrix]

I am incredibly stressed with work right now, I’m also working an insane amount of hours. I came into a project with tons and tons of issues and responsible for fixing a lot of it with people who are not willing to be on board with what should be obvious changes to most of the industry. I could probably get by with working 20 hrs less a week but then I’d have more to do and be more stressed in that regard. Plus, my OT rate is $90/hr, so that extra $1800/wk adds up.

I do temporary contract jobs so at the end of it I can take a break and unwind for a few months. This current job will likely be about 8 months in total. In those 8 months I’ll save about $110,000, so to me, the stress and hours are worth it right now. Eventually I’ll work less and less and then a few months a year for a while before full on FIRE. While I’m young (29 with no kids) I find it to be the best time to primarily focus on making as much as I possibly can.

[swashbucklinstache]

I am incredibly stressed with work right now, I’m also working an insane amount of hours. I came into a project with tons and tons of issues and responsible for fixing a lot of it with people who are not willing to be on board with what should be obvious changes to most of the industry. I could probably get by with working 20 hrs less a week but then I’d have more to do and be more stressed in that regard. Plus, my OT rate is $90/hr, so that extra $1800/wk adds up.

I do temporary contract jobs so at the end of it I can take a break and unwind for a few months. This current job will likely be about 8 months in total. In those 8 months I’ll save about $110,000, so to me, the stress and hours are worth it right now. Eventually I’ll work less and less and then a few months a year for a while before full on FIRE. While I’m young (29 with no kids) I find it to be the best time to primarily focus on making as much as I possibly can.

Whoa, you sound like me except in a much better spot! Let me try:

I am incredibly stressed with work right now, I’m also working an insane amount of hours. I came into a project with tons and tons of issues and responsible for fixing a lot of it with people who are not willing to be on board with what should be obvious changes to most of the industry. I could probably get by with working 20 hrs less a week but then I’d have more to do and be more stressed in that regard. Plus, my OT rate is $90/hr $0/hr, so that extra $1800/wk adds up.

I do temporary contract jobs so at the end of it I can take a break and unwind for a few months. This current job project will likely be about 8 30 months in total. In the next 8 months I’ll save about $110,000 $45,000, so to me, I'm not sure the stress and hours are worth it right now. Eventually I’ll work less and less and then a few months a year for a while before full on FIRE. While I’m young (29 28 with no kids) I find it to be the best time to primarily focus on making as much as I possibly can.