Author Topic: MMM Hate  (Read 7538 times)

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2019, 05:06:46 PM »
I think it's important to remember that 49.99999% of the population has a below average IQ. That helps keep things in perspective.

i'm not convinced that IQ is well correlated with civility on the internet.  In other words, really smart people can be jerks or kind; the same can be said about less intelligent people.

....and I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but as a teacher of stats I just can't let this go unanswered; when we speak of 'average' IQ (or home prices or salaries) that does not mean half are above and half are below (which would be the mean, when we are using the median). So it is true to say "more than half of the country lives in a below average home".  Not sure which way the tails go on the IQ spectrum (are there more really smart people than mentally deficient ones?)

I think you're right in that most people who say "average" are referring to the mean but technically the median can also be referred to as an average. Average is a broad term which can refer to anything that represents a statistical norm; mean and median are the most commonly used averages.

IQ is bell-curved by design.
The curve isn't a result of the scores, the scores are a result of the curve. So kind of a moot point.

The average IQ of people who participate in comments section though??? Likely bimodal with people in the middle staying the hell away from that dumpster fire.

...and once again, a hilarious comment by WTC gets overanalyzed and beaten to death by folks who would probably be at home in an Umberto Eco book club. To that, I have this to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU

nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2019, 05:15:16 PM »

...and once again, a hilarious comment by WTC gets overanalyzed and beaten to death by folks who would probably be at home in an Umberto Eco book club. To that, I have this to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU

Fair enough, WTC.  Sometimes I just can't shake my educator impulses.  Your comment was not without humor

Eric

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2019, 05:23:16 PM »
...and once again, a hilarious comment by WTC gets overanalyzed and beaten to death by folks who would probably be at home in an Umberto Eco book club. To that, I have this to say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZEdDMQZaCU

I really thought you were going to post this bit from the late, great George Carlin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

jlcnuke

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2019, 05:49:42 PM »
Since the divorce, MMM has popped up on a few of the other blogs I frequent with varying degrees of awareness. Much like many MSM articles that allow comments, the misinformation, assumptions, and straight up lies about what he is or is not is shocking. People aren't educated, and don't want to be educated. Several pages of people arguing whether he's retired or not. "He run a blog. It makes money. Not retired. QED". "He eats catfood, never travels or does anything fun, just sits in his home alone counting dollars"

What causes this? Why is this subject so bloody controversial and bringing out the worst in so many people? Why do people go out of their way to remain ignorant, and discount what he says, by straight up twisting it to fit whatever biases they have?

I'm going to go a little contrary to the chorus here. Maybe I don't visit as many comments sections as you, but it seems the thoughtful complaints about the MMM persona follow along the following lines:

1) He makes money off the blog and carpentry, therefore he is not retired in the traditional sense. This is 100% true, even if MMM enjoys these tasks so much that he would do them if he didn't get paid. Having a job you enjoy is probably one of the pinnacles of happiness: you spend your hours happy and productive, and people appreciate your product enough to trade their labor (in the form of money) for that product. And its undeniably true that the income from these two jobs has allowed him increased happiness in various ways (even if he isn't wasting it on consumer crap). The general connotation of retirement (though the IRPP would disagree) is that you are not making money off earned income. So when he says you can retire at 30 like I did, some people understandably bristle. Now if MMM says you can quit your crappy corporate job at 30 like I did, that could not be viewed in any way as hypocritical at worse, or an exaggeration at best.

2) MMM throws face punches, i.e. he attacks the lifestyle of spendypants as a class. Everyone here seems to be perfectly ok with that. But when spendypants want to return the favor by attacking Mustachianism or our leader, we get all offended? Who cares? They have some good points, they have a lot of very bad points, its our job to take the good ones and dump the rest (and not visit sites with shitty content). Despite the tongue in cheek, we are not a cult and are therefore allowed to criticize certain things and open-mindedly listen to criticism without losing sense of the beauty of frugality and optimism.

1. On the "he's not retired" front, it's a common discussion/disagreement point even on this forum. It's tough to try and convince someone that "having enough money to retire, but working for a paycheck still, is retirement" (as that doesn't match up with what the overwhelming majority of the world thinks retirement means) which is the effective argument for calling yourself retired if you work after being FI (as many, like MMM do or aspire to do). But a blog about a guy who "got rich and now just works for fun" wouldn't generate the same following as a blog about a guy who "lived life differently so he could retire super young".... so we get the internet retirement police pointing out the former and blog posts trying to counter their arguments about what is or isn't retirement.... and sometimes comments pointing out that argument on internet articles.

2. As for the extreme criticisms of "what it takes" in lifestyle sacrifices etc, well I think that comes more from the more extreme followers and possibly confusing MMM with other, even more "far from normal" early retirement advocates.  Add in a bit of exaggeration or cherry-picked examples and you can get a "reasonable" person to start thinking that retiring in your 30's with just lifestyle changes means you need to live in a tent and eat only rice.

Boofinator

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2019, 07:09:02 PM »
Since the divorce, MMM has popped up on a few of the other blogs I frequent with varying degrees of awareness. Much like many MSM articles that allow comments, the misinformation, assumptions, and straight up lies about what he is or is not is shocking. People aren't educated, and don't want to be educated. Several pages of people arguing whether he's retired or not. "He run a blog. It makes money. Not retired. QED". "He eats catfood, never travels or does anything fun, just sits in his home alone counting dollars"

What causes this? Why is this subject so bloody controversial and bringing out the worst in so many people? Why do people go out of their way to remain ignorant, and discount what he says, by straight up twisting it to fit whatever biases they have?

I'm going to go a little contrary to the chorus here. Maybe I don't visit as many comments sections as you, but it seems the thoughtful complaints about the MMM persona follow along the following lines:

1) He makes money off the blog and carpentry, therefore he is not retired in the traditional sense. This is 100% true, even if MMM enjoys these tasks so much that he would do them if he didn't get paid. Having a job you enjoy is probably one of the pinnacles of happiness: you spend your hours happy and productive, and people appreciate your product enough to trade their labor (in the form of money) for that product. And its undeniably true that the income from these two jobs has allowed him increased happiness in various ways (even if he isn't wasting it on consumer crap). The general connotation of retirement (though the IRPP would disagree) is that you are not making money off earned income. So when he says you can retire at 30 like I did, some people understandably bristle. Now if MMM says you can quit your crappy corporate job at 30 like I did, that could not be viewed in any way as hypocritical at worse, or an exaggeration at best.

2) MMM throws face punches, i.e. he attacks the lifestyle of spendypants as a class. Everyone here seems to be perfectly ok with that. But when spendypants want to return the favor by attacking Mustachianism or our leader, we get all offended? Who cares? They have some good points, they have a lot of very bad points, its our job to take the good ones and dump the rest (and not visit sites with shitty content). Despite the tongue in cheek, we are not a cult and are therefore allowed to criticize certain things and open-mindedly listen to criticism without losing sense of the beauty of frugality and optimism.

1. On the "he's not retired" front, it's a common discussion/disagreement point even on this forum. It's tough to try and convince someone that "having enough money to retire, but working for a paycheck still, is retirement" (as that doesn't match up with what the overwhelming majority of the world thinks retirement means) which is the effective argument for calling yourself retired if you work after being FI (as many, like MMM do or aspire to do). But a blog about a guy who "got rich and now just works for fun" wouldn't generate the same following as a blog about a guy who "lived life differently so he could retire super young".... so we get the internet retirement police pointing out the former and blog posts trying to counter their arguments about what is or isn't retirement.... and sometimes comments pointing out that argument on internet articles.

2. As for the extreme criticisms of "what it takes" in lifestyle sacrifices etc, well I think that comes more from the more extreme followers and possibly confusing MMM with other, even more "far from normal" early retirement advocates.  Add in a bit of exaggeration or cherry-picked examples and you can get a "reasonable" person to start thinking that retiring in your 30's with just lifestyle changes means you need to live in a tent and eat only rice.

1. Note my reference to the Internet Retirement Police Police (IRPP). These are the people that turn on their sirens as soon as somebody points out the obvious, that someone who is earning income is not retired. As I mentioned, "get rich and quit your crappy job" has a pretty nice ring to it. Or, "get rich and do your thang all day". Neither one of these would be contrary to people's expectations. Note that I'm ok with him saying he's retired, just don't be shocked and outraged when others aren't.

2. MMM does a huge service to those that choose to listen. A lot of people don't listen, and that's ok, but there's no need to care what they have to say either. You know, sour grapes and all.

By the way, I was one day from commissioning as a subnuc (OCS 06-05), so a little wistful of your profession.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2019, 08:14:08 PM »
Well, this looks like it'll be an interesting thread until it's shut down (cue the popcorn gif).  But hey, to give my own 2 cents to the pile, MMM is a strong personality that doled out face punches to clown car mommies burning gas dropping off their kids at school.  He thought the drive-though was the MAD of humankind being fulfilled.  Maybe I'm paraphrasing, but oftentimes He used hyperbole as fact (biking is safer than driving) so ultimately it is just another version of authority figures playing fast and loose with science and history.  Then suddenly his own life can't be glossed over with any amount of concealer - of course the knives come out. 

I strongly suspect that Mrs.MM knew she had FI and could not exercise it as she preferred, and that is what many take issue with the blog in the first place.  MMM extols a humble, nothing to see here lifestyle yet excites at riding in his friend's self-driving Tesla, zipping along with e-bike assistance (not an expense since it was a blog experiment), going to Canada for summer and putting a roof on his Mom's house, etc. as being a natural part of his frugal, minimalist life. 

There is a conundrum here - MMM either prefers his former life had he not started the blog and just retired fully to the simple life he ascribes to, outcome be damned (and in 2007 starting a construction company, he probably would've needed to seek paid employment since the construction company failed).  Or he owns the successful independent businessman life that he now has, warts and all. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 05:46:06 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

DreamFIRE

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2019, 08:36:59 PM »
It's tough to try and convince someone that "having enough money to retire, but working for a paycheck still, is retirement" (as that doesn't match up with what the overwhelming majority of the world thinks retirement means) which is the effective argument for calling yourself retired if you work after being FI (as many, like MMM do or aspire to do).

By that metric, I've been retired for years.  But I just call that FI as I continue to work my full time job, not retirement.

nirodha

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2019, 09:18:49 AM »
Hate clicks are good for business. What's the conversion rate from trolls to malaria nets?

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2019, 12:16:59 PM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him. 


nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2019, 12:41:18 PM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

FenderBender

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2019, 12:08:54 AM »
... which includes travel my wife and i need 15000, but it varies each year which is another sign MMM is a liar, his was always super stable.

sorry to offend, even if i'm worth 3 million and live in a home that's worth 300000 i think it is stupid to risk losing 300000 to save 1200/yr.

Are you sure you're on the right forum? You *need* 15k in entertainment per year? I think we're getting pretty side tracked from my original point, but that's sort of one of the tenants of this site. Do away with the expensive bullshit. Lots of people survive full stop on 15k a year, and you're here saying you simply couldn't cope without spending that on plane tickets, fancy dinners and concerts.

And you're not offending, you're just showing yourself to have a poor grasp of stats. *Risk* losing 300k? What does risk mean? You're just going to completely ignore likelihood? What if insurance cost $2k? $5k? Is there a number where it doesn't make sense to buy it for you? There is a number that reflects the likelihood of the home burning down, the insurance company knows it, and it's sure as shit a lot less than $1200. The lottery and insurance are different sides of the same coin. You'd lose 300k on the 5,000:1 shot your home burns down, but it's really really really unlikely to happen. Just like you'll lose $10m if your lotto numbers get called and you didn't buy a ticket. You got to be in it to win it!

It's sort of like the withdrawal rate question. If you want to protect yourself from every peril, no matter how remote you will never stop working because that demands a withdrawal rate of 0% as something completely unforeseen could wipe out the entire economy.

yes, i'm sure, we have 7 figure savings so we enjoy life.

insurance, we're talking about MMM, his neighborhood isn't that rich so insurance can't be very much. 


FenderBender

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2019, 12:14:22 AM »
I think MMM was honest at the onset of his story, but as the money grew, he became very dishonest so I don't like him and I've not read a word he has said for years.  i don't trust that what he writes is true.

I'm very frugal, have no kids, live in 750 sqft and I have a difficult time in the subs of baltimore spending less than 45k/yr. so I found 25/yr to be a lie.  I felt he classified personal expenses as business.  I remember he posted a budget once where he didn't pay for home insurance and said he was self-insured so I found that pretty stupid, who risks having to spend 100s of thousands to save about 1200/yr just to advertise staying under 25/yr?  Looking at multi-year budgets, he spent little to nothing on his house, but I guess that's a personal expense for me and a business expense for him. 

and yes, he quit his job, but he basically started a construction company and a company around this blog, but somehow he is retired i guess because he is able to quit his JOBS again at anytime.  Jamie Dimon is retired too i guess and so is Buffett and Bezos.
What??  You think he's dishonest, you don't read anything he writes, but you are convinced that what he writes isn't true?  Based on what?

If you think $25k/year with a paid off house has to be a lie simply because you spend personally spend more, I'd have to ask - how do 40% of households spend less than you?  I will testify that we have never spent anywhere close to $25k after subtracting out the PI of our mortgage. We can't - we've never made that much.

Regarding the insurance - that's basically what self-insurance is all about.  Insurance companies make money off of you.  If you can afford to cover the worst case scenario it's typically better to self insure, or at most carry catastrophic insurance with a very high deductible (which is our basic strategy).

in the beginning i was a huge supporter so i read a lot but then came things i couldn't believe so i stopped reading.  i stopped believing based on my reading not because i tried living on 25 and couldn't.  my needs probably cost me around 30k but for entertainment which includes travel my wife and i need 15000, but it varies each year which is another sign MMM is a liar, his was always super stable.

sorry to offend, even if i'm worth 3 million and live in a home that's worth 300000 i think it is stupid to risk losing 300000 to save 1200/yr.

I hear this sentiment a lot, "risk [big number] to save [small number] - that's just stupid". But when you make that statement, are you considering the actual probability of losing the full value of the house? What if the odds are 1:1000 on an annual basis? In that case the statistically correct amount to pay for insurance would be $300/year right?

The only unknown variable is what the odds really are. Do you think they are better or worse than 1:1000?

it happened to my cousin 1 year out of many, you can't pick the year your house will burn to the ground. 


Imma

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2019, 03:02:53 AM »
I think MMM was honest at the onset of his story, but as the money grew, he became very dishonest so I don't like him and I've not read a word he has said for years.  i don't trust that what he writes is true.

I'm very frugal, have no kids, live in 750 sqft and I have a difficult time in the subs of baltimore spending less than 45k/yr. so I found 25/yr to be a lie.  I felt he classified personal expenses as business.  I remember he posted a budget once where he didn't pay for home insurance and said he was self-insured so I found that pretty stupid, who risks having to spend 100s of thousands to save about 1200/yr just to advertise staying under 25/yr?  Looking at multi-year budgets, he spent little to nothing on his house, but I guess that's a personal expense for me and a business expense for him. 

and yes, he quit his job, but he basically started a construction company and a company around this blog, but somehow he is retired i guess because he is able to quit his JOBS again at anytime.  Jamie Dimon is retired too i guess and so is Buffett and Bezos.

You should have a look at the Low Income Group Journal. Everyone there has an income lower than 45k and many of them have impressive savings rates.

I have absolutely no idea whether MMM really lives on 25k and whether it's fair that he labels some expenses as business expenses and I don't care much either, but I know it's absolutely possible to live well on 25k and even less. Many people do it. Keep in mind most people in the world will never make the extremely high salaries that many people on MMM seem to make.

nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2019, 05:57:46 AM »
I think MMM was honest at the onset of his story, but as the money grew, he became very dishonest so I don't like him and I've not read a word he has said for years.  i don't trust that what he writes is true.

I'm very frugal, have no kids, live in 750 sqft and I have a difficult time in the subs of baltimore spending less than 45k/yr. so I found 25/yr to be a lie.  I felt he classified personal expenses as business.  I remember he posted a budget once where he didn't pay for home insurance and said he was self-insured so I found that pretty stupid, who risks having to spend 100s of thousands to save about 1200/yr just to advertise staying under 25/yr?  Looking at multi-year budgets, he spent little to nothing on his house, but I guess that's a personal expense for me and a business expense for him. 

and yes, he quit his job, but he basically started a construction company and a company around this blog, but somehow he is retired i guess because he is able to quit his JOBS again at anytime.  Jamie Dimon is retired too i guess and so is Buffett and Bezos.
What??  You think he's dishonest, you don't read anything he writes, but you are convinced that what he writes isn't true?  Based on what?

If you think $25k/year with a paid off house has to be a lie simply because you spend personally spend more, I'd have to ask - how do 40% of households spend less than you?  I will testify that we have never spent anywhere close to $25k after subtracting out the PI of our mortgage. We can't - we've never made that much.

Regarding the insurance - that's basically what self-insurance is all about.  Insurance companies make money off of you.  If you can afford to cover the worst case scenario it's typically better to self insure, or at most carry catastrophic insurance with a very high deductible (which is our basic strategy).

in the beginning i was a huge supporter so i read a lot but then came things i couldn't believe so i stopped reading.  i stopped believing based on my reading not because i tried living on 25 and couldn't.  my needs probably cost me around 30k but for entertainment which includes travel my wife and i need 15000, but it varies each year which is another sign MMM is a liar, his was always super stable.

sorry to offend, even if i'm worth 3 million and live in a home that's worth 300000 i think it is stupid to risk losing 300000 to save 1200/yr.

I hear this sentiment a lot, "risk [big number] to save [small number] - that's just stupid". But when you make that statement, are you considering the actual probability of losing the full value of the house? What if the odds are 1:1000 on an annual basis? In that case the statistically correct amount to pay for insurance would be $300/year right?

The only unknown variable is what the odds really are. Do you think they are better or worse than 1:1000?

it happened to my cousin 1 year out of many, you can't pick the year your house will burn to the ground.

This has absolutely nothing to do with it.  All insurance policies are calculated to generate profits for the insurance company, and it's a pretty fat margin. 
If you have $3MM and a house worth $300k and you can live on $45k as you suggested upthread you are in a perfectly legitimate place to self-insure. The most probably scenario (no payouts) will save you five figures each decade, while the extremely unlikely 'total loss' could still be paid for out of pocket without altering your FI status.

In Pete's case their numbers were far more rosier, as they had more, lived on less and continued to bring in considerable income.

MasterStache

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2019, 10:10:08 AM »
The comment sections in many corners of the internet can be a cesspool or humanity's worst traits.  Anonymity allows people to say whatever vile thing they want, and informed, researched opinions get the same weight as wild speculation or outright lies (i.e. both will get published).

^This!!

I've made it a personal goal of mine to give less fucks about other's opinions. The best way to do this is to refrain from reading the comments. Also, it's outside my circle of control.

MDfive21

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2019, 08:46:52 AM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

another common definition of 'retired' means that you served your 20 years in the military or other public service and retired with your pension.  it means 'end of first career, beginning of pension' to many people.  so FIRE fits that definition of  retired.

DadJokes

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2019, 09:57:44 AM »
I think MMM was honest at the onset of his story, but as the money grew, he became very dishonest so I don't like him and I've not read a word he has said for years.  i don't trust that what he writes is true.

I'm very frugal, have no kids, live in 750 sqft and I have a difficult time in the subs of baltimore spending less than 45k/yr. so I found 25/yr to be a lie.  I felt he classified personal expenses as business.  I remember he posted a budget once where he didn't pay for home insurance and said he was self-insured so I found that pretty stupid, who risks having to spend 100s of thousands to save about 1200/yr just to advertise staying under 25/yr?  Looking at multi-year budgets, he spent little to nothing on his house, but I guess that's a personal expense for me and a business expense for him. 

and yes, he quit his job, but he basically started a construction company and a company around this blog, but somehow he is retired i guess because he is able to quit his JOBS again at anytime.  Jamie Dimon is retired too i guess and so is Buffett and Bezos.
What??  You think he's dishonest, you don't read anything he writes, but you are convinced that what he writes isn't true?  Based on what?

If you think $25k/year with a paid off house has to be a lie simply because you spend personally spend more, I'd have to ask - how do 40% of households spend less than you?  I will testify that we have never spent anywhere close to $25k after subtracting out the PI of our mortgage. We can't - we've never made that much.

Regarding the insurance - that's basically what self-insurance is all about.  Insurance companies make money off of you.  If you can afford to cover the worst case scenario it's typically better to self insure, or at most carry catastrophic insurance with a very high deductible (which is our basic strategy).

in the beginning i was a huge supporter so i read a lot but then came things i couldn't believe so i stopped reading.  i stopped believing based on my reading not because i tried living on 25 and couldn't.  my needs probably cost me around 30k but for entertainment which includes travel my wife and i need 15000, but it varies each year which is another sign MMM is a liar, his was always super stable.

sorry to offend, even if i'm worth 3 million and live in a home that's worth 300000 i think it is stupid to risk losing 300000 to save 1200/yr.

In my own non-mustachian budget, I live on ~57,500/yr.

If I were mortgage-free (still paid insurance), didn't drive, didn't have dogs, didn't eat out, used a cheaper phone plan, didn't use internet at home, and cut discretionary spending in half, my cost of living would be ~29,700 while still living in my monster 2,216 square foot house.

So I can see how it's possible to live on 25,000/yr.

Dabnasty

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2019, 10:07:53 AM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

another common definition of 'retired' means that you served your 20 years in the military or other public service and retired with your pension.  it means 'end of first career, beginning of pension' to many people.  so FIRE fits that definition of  retired.

These are some good points. I've never had a strong opinion as to whether it was right or wrong for MMM to call himself retired but I probably would have said that he is technically not retired. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure there's a definition solid enough to argue one way or the other.

What about someone who quits their full time job at 35 and does 40 hours/week of volunteer work for no pay? What if they do a few hours of consulting each week and earn as much as a minimum wage job? What if they are part owners of a business but don't do any of the work, they just cash checks?

Is their a defined number of hours you're allowed to work and/or a defined income you must be below in order to call yourself retired?

Just Joe

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2019, 10:19:41 AM »
People aren't educated, and don't want to be educated.
You are simply seeing an illustration of humanity. The majority of people out there simply can't think for themselves anymore. When you really think about that, and let it marinate for a little bit, everything that you see around you suddenly makes sense. Sad, but true.

That's for sure.  I see that a lot.

The advertising and entertainment industry has done wonders over the past 100 years. They have provided a far better education than the schools. Of course its not the average person who benefits from this situation...

mschaus

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2019, 11:42:12 AM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

another common definition of 'retired' means that you served your 20 years in the military or other public service and retired with your pension.  it means 'end of first career, beginning of pension' to many people.  so FIRE fits that definition of  retired.

These are some good points. I've never had a strong opinion as to whether it was right or wrong for MMM to call himself retired but I probably would have said that he is technically not retired. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure there's a definition solid enough to argue one way or the other.

What about someone who quits their full time job at 35 and does 40 hours/week of volunteer work for no pay? What if they do a few hours of consulting each week and earn as much as a minimum wage job? What if they are part owners of a business but don't do any of the work, they just cash checks?

Is their a defined number of hours you're allowed to work and/or a defined income you must be below in order to call yourself retired?

Everyone seems to have forgotten the definition of "retired" was resolved on 2/13/2013:
"Why does Mr. Money Mustache get to define it?
Because I have the biggest Early Retirement blog. If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog, calling it something like www. mrmoneymustacheisnotreallyretired.com, build it up to be more widely read than this one, and then propose their own definition. Only at this point would the torch be passed and the definition of Retired be up for discussion."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

DadJokes

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2019, 12:36:15 PM »
People (including those defending MMM) are way too hung up over the definition of retirement.

In both definitions, the person has enough passive income where working is not a requirement, so I don't see why it matters.

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2019, 12:56:26 PM »
They should invent a new word, where you're basically retired but still work a little and bring in a little income through that work.  They should call that word "semi-retired". 

What's that -- that already happened?

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2019, 12:58:10 PM »
Quote
If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog...

They already did.  It's called dictionary.com and it's a great resource.

libertarian4321

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2019, 01:50:10 PM »
"He eats catfood, never travels or does anything fun, just sits in his home alone counting dollars"

Tell 'em not to knock cat food until they've tried it.  A little hot sauce can do wonders for the stuff.

Boofinator

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2019, 03:07:23 PM »
Everyone seems to have forgotten the definition of "retired" was resolved on 2/13/2013:
"Why does Mr. Money Mustache get to define it?
Because I have the biggest Early Retirement blog. If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog, calling it something like www. mrmoneymustacheisnotreallyretired.com, build it up to be more widely read than this one, and then propose their own definition. Only at this point would the torch be passed and the definition of Retired be up for discussion."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

I hope nobody actually takes that quote seriously. If so, I can begin to understand why Trump was elected president.

spartana

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #75 on: January 14, 2019, 03:34:03 PM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

another common definition of 'retired' means that you served your 20 years in the military or other public service and retired with your pension.  it means 'end of first career, beginning of pension' to many people.  so FIRE fits that definition of  retired.
Sadly a lot of military "retirees" can't live on their pensions so aren't FI and will have to continue working to fund their lifestyle. So not FI or RE even by MMM's definition of early retired...or anyone else's.

As for the MMM hate I don't really have an explanation. I'm FIREd and get some of the same type of negative comments even though I haven't worked since FIREing. People just don't like things that are outside the norm I guess.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 03:39:21 PM by spartana »

DreamFIRE

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #76 on: January 14, 2019, 05:25:45 PM »
So I can see how it's possible to live on 25,000/yr.

I'll say.  That's over $10,000 more than I spent last year while maintaining an 82% savings rate.

I'm FI, but I don't call it retired - I still work full time at the same job I've had for years.

dragoncar

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #77 on: January 14, 2019, 05:53:42 PM »
Quote
re·tire·ment
noun
1.
the action or fact of leaving one's job and ceasing to work.
"a man nearing retirement"
synonyms:   giving up work, stopping working, stopping work; retiral
"they are just coming up to retirement"

Words have actual meanings.  The word "retirement" has an actual meaning.  We can wield phrases like Internet Retirement Police to shame outsiders to expand the definition of the word to our liking, but outside this little corner of the internet, the word "retired" has an agreed upon meaning, and it's actually us who are in the wrong here.  I'm not defending the legion of people who clearly have sour grapes and are drinking the Haterade. I am saying that not everyone who disagrees with our revised definition of retirement has sour grapes.  So kind of a minor point, but whatever this is a message board. 

Beyond the trigger word of "retirement," MMM also provokes (inspires?) hate because his blog persona is extraordinarily judgy.  That's why there is hate.  Right? Like, My idiosyncratic and arbitrary definition of a life well lived is the correct one, and yours is wrong.  Your clown car habit is wrong. Choosing a house because of the school district means you're afflicted with Tiny Differences Exaggeration syndrome... Now excuse me while I jet off to an exotic international location to lecture 20 doting admirers, drink craft beer and coffee, and donate at least 4 hours towards advancing the welfare of a local villager. 

When a judgy person slips on a banana peel, people are going to laugh.  When he gets toilet paper stuck to the bottom of his shoe, people aren't going to tell him.

I don't really buy this argument that society has established that a retired person is a person who ceases to work. The AARP (the 'R' stands for "retired") revealed that ~40% of their members took up some sort of formal position - either paid or volunteer - after they had left permanently left their life-long career.  Motivations varied, but social connections, staying intellectually stimulated and giving to the community were high on the list.   Society looks those people and says 'yeah, they're retired, and now they coach a swim-team/ work with the church / mentor students / serve on a board.    The distinction I see isn't about whether they never earn another dime, but on whether they are older. In contrast, a 30-something who struck it rich early on is rarely described as 'retired' but 'independently wealthy'.  Calling a sub-40 person 'retired' is for whatever reason provocative regardless of what they do, while we have no problem calling a 65 year old attorney who leaves his law practice but still consults a few days per month 'retired'. 

In the end it is based on whatever definition you give, but to his credit MMM never hid his post-'retirement' income.

another common definition of 'retired' means that you served your 20 years in the military or other public service and retired with your pension.  it means 'end of first career, beginning of pension' to many people.  so FIRE fits that definition of  retired.

So words have meanings but not necessarily the meanings people like Fanta think.  MMM certainly retired from his original career, so the whole premise of the blog is sound.  You can argue about whether he stayed retired but that’s a bit like arguing whether someone who went to sleep stayed asleep.  Either way they still slept.


Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #78 on: January 14, 2019, 06:47:30 PM »
Quote
So words have meanings but not necessarily the meanings people like Fanta think.

People like Fanta?  You mean people who can access a dictionary, and who believe words have actual meanings? 

The definition of the word "retirement" propounded on this forum is not a mainstream definition of that word.  There shouldn't be any controversy around that assertion. That should be obvious.   

Face it, Pete uses the word "retirement" not because its the most appropriate word, but because it's provocative.  And it was probably a wise decision as he needed clicks to grow the movement; "30 year old semi-retires" just doesn't have the same ring, does it?

Pete is not a military veteran who spent 20 years in the service, or some retired school teacher, who now makes a few bucks each week working at the concession stand at the HS football games.  If you add up all the activities that support his business, he may work more than many full-time employees: he writes a blog, does a significant amount of media to promote the blog, does social media to promote his brand, goes to meet-ups, and makes appearances at the headquarters that support the MMM brand and persona.   For someone who's retired, he sure spends a lot of time growing his business. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  Thanks for the discussion. 






dragoncar

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2019, 12:12:56 AM »
Quote
So words have meanings but not necessarily the meanings people like Fanta think.

People like Fanta?  You mean people who can access a dictionary, and who believe words have actual meanings? 

The definition of the word "retirement" propounded on this forum is not a mainstream definition of that word.  There shouldn't be any controversy around that assertion. That should be obvious.   

Face it, Pete uses the word "retirement" not because its the most appropriate word, but because it's provocative.  And it was probably a wise decision as he needed clicks to grow the movement; "30 year old semi-retires" just doesn't have the same ring, does it?

Pete is not a military veteran who spent 20 years in the service, or some retired school teacher, who now makes a few bucks each week working at the concession stand at the HS football games.  If you add up all the activities that support his business, he may work more than many full-time employees: he writes a blog, does a significant amount of media to promote the blog, does social media to promote his brand, goes to meet-ups, and makes appearances at the headquarters that support the MMM brand and persona.   For someone who's retired, he sure spends a lot of time growing his business. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  Thanks for the discussion.

I agree to nothing.  I'm usually the guy who says "words have meanings" because they do, but have you ever noticed that there are multiple definitions for words?

For example, Macmillan gives these possibilities:

"no longer working because you have reached the age where you are officially too old to work" - hmm, do you agree with this definition?   This would mean the majority of "retired" people in the world would not be retired because most places don't have an official age after which you are too old to work.

"no longer working in a job or career, especially after having worked in it for most of your life" - Pete would satisfy this definition since he is no longer working in the career he held for most of his life.

It's very common for people to retire from specific professions or jobs and continue to earn money at some point in time.  I don't even know the specifics, but say Pete quit his job and started blogging as a hobby that made no money.  Would you consider him retired?  Say the blogging started to generate insignificant revenue after 5 years.  Is he still retired?  Say after 10 years he starts spending 40 hours a week on the blog.  Well he might not be retired anymore, but does that mean he didn't retire for 10 years?

Consider in the the UK the more common term is pensioner (which the almighty dictionary says is a synonym of retiree).  In New Zealand they are called superannuitants.  But what if they don't actually receive a pension?  What if they receive a pension but still work?  Are they no longer a pensioner? 

nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2019, 06:00:56 AM »
@Fanta - I'm a retired athlete, but I still engage in sport.  My aunt was mayor of her town but has now retired from politics. My uncle retired after 30 years as a pilot and now he delivers flowers to hospitals because 'it keeps me busy'. My HS physics teacher was a retired Navy captain with a pension who taught because he liked mentoring students. Bob Mueller, now special council, is the retired FBI director appointed under 'W' Bush.

Words have meaning and in this case 'retired' has many in common use.  The idea that a retired person earns no income nor avoids all structured jobs (e.g. 'volunteerism') doesn't fit with the data displayed by AARP and others. Pete has said he retired from his full time job as a software engineer, and I see nothing wrong with that - he's been remarkably open about what he's done since then, and why.  Other than trying to confine the definition to "one who never works for pay again" I'm not sure why this issue rankles you so much.

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2019, 07:16:58 AM »
Quote
It's very common for people to retire from specific professions or jobs and continue to earn money at some point in time.  I don't even know the specifics, but say Pete quit his job and started blogging as a hobby that made no money.  Would you consider him retired?  Say the blogging started to generate insignificant revenue after 5 years.  Is he still retired?  Say after 10 years he starts spending 40 hours a week on the blog.  Well he might not be retired anymore, but does that mean he didn't retire for 10 years?

Somewhere along the line, Pete transitioned from writing a blog to running a lifestyle business.  With the time he commits to that business enterprise today, I would say he's not retired.  And I would say 99% of Americans would agree with my assessment. 

Around the time of the divorce, Pete even said something like, Time to ramp up the revenue from the blog.    Well, why would he want to do that?  Put two and two together: he's relying on income from the blog to fund his lifestyle, to get free Uber's, free AirBnb's, to continue to recruit more people to pay for his flight and lodging to the Chautauqua. Why else would he want to generate more money?  It's quite possible that, post-divorce, he needs the money now, too.  So I guess it's a good thing he hasn't been working at some local concession stand at the high school football games because otherwise he may have had to get back into engineering.

Are you making the argument that Pete spends all the time he does cultivating his MMM persona, just so he can bathe in his own minor celebrity?  I always figured he was doing it for the money/trying to change the world.  Of course if he was only trying to change the world, then he wouldn't monetize the site so aggressively, would he? (it's not like he's donating all profit to charity)  So that makes me think he either loves the celebrity, or he is doing it for the money.

These are some reasons why there could be MMM Hate. The "retirement" thing is just one part of it.


Boofinator

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2019, 07:31:04 AM »
No one disputes that MMM is retired from software engineering. The dispute is that he is retired. There is a strong difference in connotation. Being retired, for most people, implies no steady source of earned income. So when he says you can retire like me, there is a little bit of skepticism involved, as there should be. I have seen what I believe to be some extremely rose-colored glasses among some in the FIRE community, who feel that living bare-bones to the magic 25x expenses and then retiring (with perhaps the expectation of future blog income) is the secret to happiness. This is not what MMM did, as he 1) had the construction business, 2) worked carpentry on the side, and 3) down the road hit the goldmine selling the dream. I'm happy for him, but in the common sense of the word, he is not retired. (Otherwise, a vast majority of people in developed countries are already retired, so what's the point?)

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2019, 07:34:44 AM »
@Fanta - I'm a retired athlete, but I still engage in sport.  My aunt was mayor of her town but has now retired from politics. My uncle retired after 30 years as a pilot and now he delivers flowers to hospitals because 'it keeps me busy'. My HS physics teacher was a retired Navy captain with a pension who taught because he liked mentoring students. Bob Mueller, now special council, is the retired FBI director appointed under 'W' Bush.

I was sleepy and I retired to my room. 




FrugalToque

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2019, 07:35:57 AM »
Everyone seems to have forgotten the definition of "retired" was resolved on 2/13/2013:
"Why does Mr. Money Mustache get to define it?
Because I have the biggest Early Retirement blog. If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog, calling it something like www. mrmoneymustacheisnotreallyretired.com, build it up to be more widely read than this one, and then propose their own definition. Only at this point would the torch be passed and the definition of Retired be up for discussion."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

I hope nobody actually takes that quote seriously. If so, I can begin to understand why Trump was elected president.

If you're uncomfortable with a bit of facetious arrogance in the pursuit of changing the world and saving the environment from our misery and over-consumption, you might have come to the wrong place.

Toque.

Boofinator

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2019, 07:48:19 AM »
Everyone seems to have forgotten the definition of "retired" was resolved on 2/13/2013:
"Why does Mr. Money Mustache get to define it?
Because I have the biggest Early Retirement blog. If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog, calling it something like www. mrmoneymustacheisnotreallyretired.com, build it up to be more widely read than this one, and then propose their own definition. Only at this point would the torch be passed and the definition of Retired be up for discussion."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

I hope nobody actually takes that quote seriously. If so, I can begin to understand why Trump was elected president.

If you're uncomfortable with a bit of facetious arrogance in the pursuit of changing the world and saving the environment from our misery and over-consumption, you might have come to the wrong place.

Toque.

Apologies, my chain of reasoning was slightly lacking. MMM says "this is a fact because I have the biggest blog"; I took this as tongue-in-cheek (I remember constantly cracking up when reading through the blog for the first time years ago). But, if you just read the words in that passage, they sound an awful lot like words Trump constantly uses, and which are not tongue-in-cheek: "I'm right because I'm the richest, you're a loser, etc." My original comment should have more artfully portrayed the connection.

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2019, 08:18:11 AM »
Around the time of the divorce, Pete even said something like, Time to ramp up the revenue from the blog.    Well, why would he want to do that?  Put two and two together: he's relying on income from the blog to fund his lifestyle, to get free Uber's, free AirBnb's, to continue to recruit more people to pay for his flight and lodging to the Chautauqua. Why else would he want to generate more money?  It's quite possible that, post-divorce, he needs the money now, too.  So I guess it's a good thing he hasn't been working at some local concession stand at the high school football games because otherwise he may have had to get back into engineering.

Do you have a source for the above?

Overall your analysis of Pete's finances lacks any real context and seems contrary to what is known. By all accounts (including your own) he's earned quite a bit in "retirement" (I used air-quotes for you), far more than they have spent, as has his former spouse.  At the same time we've had a huge bull market. As they had far more than 25x expenses during the depths of the recession, even a 50/50 split today would leave him with far more money than he started with.

AS for his whole involvement with the blog - you haven't been around much, but his involvement since 2015 has been just a step above nil.  In the beginning he posted an article about every week.  Lately he's been doing about 3-4 per year.  He comments on the forums about as often.  The revenue now comes from previous effort and was rather serendipitous. There's little need for him to do anything with the blog unless he wants to, as the forum is pretty much self-sustaining. If they decided not to donate the blog income to charity it would more than sustain their entire family without touching their original (as yet still untouched) retirement nest-egg.
ETA:  I see that he may have used the blog income to buy out the second half of the MMM headquarters.  Curiously this hasn't resulted in mor frequent postings, but (as near as I can tell) a banner ad about CCs at the bottom.  See discussion about this with Sol.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:26:58 AM by nereo »

Polaria

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2019, 08:33:35 AM »
Around the time of the divorce, Pete even said something like, Time to ramp up the revenue from the blog.    Well, why would he want to do that?  Put two and two together: he's relying on income from the blog to fund his lifestyle, to get free Uber's, free AirBnb's, to continue to recruit more people to pay for his flight and lodging to the Chautauqua. Why else would he want to generate more money?  It's quite possible that, post-divorce, he needs the money now, too.  So I guess it's a good thing he hasn't been working at some local concession stand at the high school football games because otherwise he may have had to get back into engineering.

Do you have a source for the above?

I am usually staying away from such conversations, but I remembered reading it somewhere as well. Turns out it was a tweet.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:36:29 AM by Polaria »

FrugalToque

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2019, 08:34:28 AM »
Everyone seems to have forgotten the definition of "retired" was resolved on 2/13/2013:
"Why does Mr. Money Mustache get to define it?
Because I have the biggest Early Retirement blog. If the Internet Retirement Police would like to supersede my definition, they will have to start their own blog, calling it something like www. mrmoneymustacheisnotreallyretired.com, build it up to be more widely read than this one, and then propose their own definition. Only at this point would the torch be passed and the definition of Retired be up for discussion."

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

I hope nobody actually takes that quote seriously. If so, I can begin to understand why Trump was elected president.

If you're uncomfortable with a bit of facetious arrogance in the pursuit of changing the world and saving the environment from our misery and over-consumption, you might have come to the wrong place.

Toque.

Apologies, my chain of reasoning was slightly lacking. MMM says "this is a fact because I have the biggest blog"; I took this as tongue-in-cheek (I remember constantly cracking up when reading through the blog for the first time years ago). But, if you just read the words in that passage, they sound an awful lot like words Trump constantly uses, and which are not tongue-in-cheek: "I'm right because I'm the richest, you're a loser, etc." My original comment should have more artfully portrayed the connection.

Yeah, except you have seen his interviews in person right?  So you know that's not what he's doing.

Anyway.

The goal is to teach people that "retirement" isn't something for old people who are only allowed to do things that consume resources.  It's for young people, too, who want to unleash their creative souls and continue doing exciting, productive things.

So,  yes, it's important for MMM to conquer the definition of retirement and show people a different way.

The rest of what I see in this thread is only the thousandth or so iteration of the retirement police, doing their thing.

Toque.

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2019, 08:52:01 AM »

The rest of what I see in this thread is only the thousandth or so iteration of the retirement police, doing their thing.


Does being in the retirement police pay well? I haven't done well as a member of the grammar police lately.

Boofinator

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2019, 09:09:50 AM »
Yeah, except you have seen his interviews in person right?  So you know that's not what he's doing.

Anyway.

The goal is to teach people that "retirement" isn't something for old people who are only allowed to do things that consume resources.  It's for young people, too, who want to unleash their creative souls and continue doing exciting, productive things.

So,  yes, it's important for MMM to conquer the definition of retirement and show people a different way.

The rest of what I see in this thread is only the thousandth or so iteration of the retirement police, doing their thing.

Toque.

I agree wholeheartedly, except for the part I bolded. Who wants to retire when you can be FI and do whatever the fuck you please (including in MMM's case, become filthy rich)? And as MMM says, once one becomes FI, they have usually matured enough that the lure of consumerism has lessened, and they will spend their vast fortune on less ethereal and/or destructive pursuits. In other words, consumerism is the enemy, not industriousness.

As for your last statement, it's ironic that the IRPP need to come out of the woodwork every time the IRP do, is it not? Ad hominem for the win?

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »
Around the time of the divorce, Pete even said something like, Time to ramp up the revenue from the blog.    Well, why would he want to do that?  Put two and two together: he's relying on income from the blog to fund his lifestyle, to get free Uber's, free AirBnb's, to continue to recruit more people to pay for his flight and lodging to the Chautauqua. Why else would he want to generate more money?  It's quite possible that, post-divorce, he needs the money now, too.  So I guess it's a good thing he hasn't been working at some local concession stand at the high school football games because otherwise he may have had to get back into engineering.

Do you have a source for the above?

Overall your analysis of Pete's finances lacks any real context and seems contrary to what is known. By all accounts (including your own) he's earned quite a bit in "retirement" (I used air-quotes for you), far more than they have spent, as has his former spouse.  At the same time we've had a huge bull market. As they had far more than 25x expenses during the depths of the recession, even a 50/50 split today would leave him with far more money than he started with.

AS for his whole involvement with the blog - you haven't been around much, but his involvement since 2015 has been just a step above nil.  In the beginning he posted an article about every week.  Lately he's been doing about 3-4 per year.  He comments on the forums about as often.  The revenue now comes from previous effort and was rather serendipitous. There's little need for him to do anything with the blog unless he wants to, as the forum is pretty much self-sustaining. If they decided not to donate the blog income to charity it would more than sustain their entire family without touching their original (as yet still untouched) retirement nest-egg.

Ya, if anything it almost seems like he cut back shortly after the blog started making big money. I thought it was pretty clear he did most of his writing because he wanted to and when he got bored/ran out of ideas he just stopped.

And I still don't get why earning money reduces his message that he could be living the same life with just the original stache. Maybe the $25,000 spend has a bunch of asterisks but given what the market has done in that time he could spend far more than 25k and still be fine.

Oh, and "air-quotes" refers to the hand gesture. In written text you can just call them quotes. Words have meaning and we will not allow them to be used incorrectly. apparently.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:25:02 AM by Dabnasty »

nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2019, 09:24:05 AM »

Oh, and "air-quotes" refers to the hand gesture. In written text you can just call them quotes. Words have meaning and we will not allow them to be used incorrectly.
Duly noted and corrected

spartana

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2019, 09:56:55 AM »
Around the time of the divorce, Pete even said something like, Time to ramp up the revenue from the blog.    Well, why would he want to do that?  Put two and two together: he's relying on income from the blog to fund his lifestyle, to get free Uber's, free AirBnb's, to continue to recruit more people to pay for his flight and lodging to the Chautauqua. Why else would he want to generate more money?  It's quite possible that, post-divorce, he needs the money now, too.  So I guess it's a good thing he hasn't been working at some local concession stand at the high school football games because otherwise he may have had to get back into engineering.

Do you have a source for the above?

Overall your analysis of Pete's finances lacks any real context and seems contrary to what is known. By all accounts (including your own) he's earned quite a bit in "retirement" (I used air-quotes for you), far more than they have spent, as has his former spouse.  At the same time we've had a huge bull market. As they had far more than 25x expenses during the depths of the recession, even a 50/50 split today would leave him with far more money than he started with.

AS for his whole involvement with the blog - you haven't been around much, but his involvement since 2015 has been just a step above nil.  In the beginning he posted an article about every week.  Lately he's been doing about 3-4 per year.  He comments on the forums about as often.  The revenue now comes from previous effort and was rather serendipitous. There's little need for him to do anything with the blog unless he wants to, as the forum is pretty much self-sustaining. If they decided not to donate the blog income to charity it would more than sustain their entire family without touching their original (as yet still untouched) retirement nest-egg.

Ya, if anything it almost seems like he cut back shortly after the blog started making big money. I thought it was pretty clear he did most of his writing because he wanted to and when he got bored/ran out of ideas he just stopped.

And I still don't get why earning money reduces his message that he could be living the same life with just the original stache. Maybe the $25,000 spend has a bunch of asterisks but given what the market has done in that time he could spend far more than 25k and still be fine.

Oh, and "air-quotes" refers to the hand gesture. In written text you can just call them quotes. Words have meaning and we will not allow them to be used incorrectly. apparently.
I think the hate comes from not believing a person or family, even with a paid off home and low expenses, could live on $25k/year. So the haters assume MMM can't and is lying about his whole lifestyle...which of course earns him income blogging about it which they feel adds insult to injury. Some people (even some on this forum) just don't believe its possible to live a good life on $25k so no one can. As a FIREee in the $25k or under passive income camp I know it can be done but I can't seem to convince others I know that I'm not doing something else to earn a higher income. Thus comes the hate...or at least disbelief...that it's a doable thing.

nereo

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2019, 10:06:14 AM »
I think the hate comes from not believing a person or family, even with a paid off home and low expenses, could live on $25k/year. So the haters assume MMM can't and is lying about his whole lifestyle...which of course earns him income blogging about it which they feel adds insult to injury. Some people (even some on this forum) just don't believe its possible to live a good life on $25k so no one can. As a FIREee in the $25k or under passive income camp I know it can be done but I can't seem to convince others I know that I'm not doing something else to earn a higher income. Thus comes the hate...or at least disbelief...that it's a doable thing.
I'm routinely shocked that so many people believe living on sub $25k/year is either impossible or involves living like a pauper. We have one child and have never come close to spending this amount, yet we still live an amazingly cushy lifestyle filled with travel, too much stuff and plenty of food and friends.   There also seems to be a number of people who assume that the root cause of their divorce was his 'miserly' ways, while offering no evidence that this was the case.

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2019, 10:19:11 AM »
Quote
And I still don't get why earning money reduces his message that he could be living the same life with just the original stache

Isn't it obvious?  Because he's been telling his followers that once they reach 25X annual expenses, they no longer have to work for money.  But he's not eating his own cooking: if he actually believed that deep down, then he wouldn't be adding so aggressively to his stash.  He's like a priest on his death bed, unsure of what's next, and afraid to die.  Does he actually believe what he preaches?  It makes me think that, deep down, Pete's unsure whether the 4% rule actually holds water.  His words are not consistent with his actions.  He tells people they don't need any more money, but then he monetizes the blog, and keeps most of the profits for himself.  He's not adding affiliate links to keep the lights on; he's doing it to get richer.  What % of blog profits have actually been donated to charity?  Wouldn't that money have helped to change the world?

From my admittedly cynical perspective, his actions make me wonder whether he cares more about cultivating his own minor celebrity, and adding to his pile of money, than he does about changing the world.* 

*And yet, I have benefitted greatly from his advice.  He has made my own world better.  I admire Pete and I'm thankful for what he's done, but at the same time, yeah, I think he's a little FOS.









Dicey

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2019, 10:31:06 AM »
I think the hate comes from not believing a person or family, even with a paid off home and low expenses, could live on $25k/year. So the haters assume MMM can't and is lying about his whole lifestyle...which of course earns him income blogging about it which they feel adds insult to injury. Some people (even some on this forum) just don't believe its possible to live a good life on $25k so no one can. As a FIREee in the $25k or under passive income camp I know it can be done but I can't seem to convince others I know that I'm not doing something else to earn a higher income. Thus comes the hate...or at least disbelief...that it's a doable thing.
I'm routinely shocked that so many people believe living on sub $25k/year is either impossible or involves living like a pauper. We have one child and have never come close to spending this amount, yet we still live an amazingly cushy lifestyle filled with travel, too much stuff and plenty of food and friends.   There also seems to be a number of people who assume that the root cause of their divorce was his 'miserly' ways, while offering no evidence that this was the case.
On a related note: I am shocked, dismayed, disappointed at how much hate this forum throws the Frugalwoods way. OMG, you can't learn anything from them because their income is too big? I'm not a superfan but wow, they do not deserve this, nor does MMM. If you don't agree, move on. Your outrage isn't going to change anything.

Fanta

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2019, 10:43:41 AM »
Dicey,

Why should I move on?  The topic is "MMM Hate", and the OP asks: "What causes this?"  If the topic is inappropriate, I'm sure FrugalToque will lock it/delete it/whatever.  "Outrage" may not achieve anything, but neither will cheerleading.  I thought part of the reasons for a forum was to consider, challenge, and refine ideas. 

By the way, I don't agree with your characterization of why people were disappointed with the FrugalWoods, but don't want to take us off topic.




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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2019, 10:46:47 AM »

The rest of what I see in this thread is only the thousandth or so iteration of the retirement police, doing their thing.


Does being in the retirement police pay well? I haven't done well as a member of the grammar police lately.

It pays in tiny violins that play sad tunes while you whine on the internet.  You can't put a price on that.

MasterStache

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Re: MMM Hate
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2019, 10:53:27 AM »

The rest of what I see in this thread is only the thousandth or so iteration of the retirement police, doing their thing.


Does being in the retirement police pay well? I haven't done well as a member of the grammar police lately.

It pays in tiny violins that play sad tunes while you whine on the internet.  You can't put a price on that.

But if you join the IRP you are no longer considered retired (-: