MMM and Home Schooling

[sarah8001]

I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I think a huge problem with this is that pretty much every SINGLE parent and administrator will have different ideas about what is a "good" education. Some people value drama clubs and art class. Others value rigorous academics, or strict discipline, or creative freedom. Teachers aren't just teaching facts, they're passing on their personal morals and values and shaping how kids perceive learning and the world in general. Every time this message clashes with the parents' values, some parents will clamor for the teacher to be fired. Realistically, your kid can catch up from sixth grade to graduation in one year of community college, but you can't undo 8 heours a day of someone else teaching your kid how to think. Maybe that person is wonderful, and passes on better lessons than you could (I did have amazing teachers), or maybe they're angry and bitter and cynical and controlling and sadistic. I think that's why many parents want to home school. They want to make sure their values, which they think are necessary for long term happiness, are taught, instead of some stranger's. And BTW, homeschooled kids can participate in professional theater, community sports with semi professional athletes, actually start small businesses, and take classes far above high school level. I'm looking at taking six week ethnobotany classes. You live in the woods and learn about herbal medicine, native plants, and their relationship with native peoples. A homeschooled kid could take this class, but it would be tricky for a public school kid to do the spring camp, important for identifying flowering plants. I'm not totally anti public schools, I just think academic and socialization opportunities exist on both. It's really about lifestyle and personal values.

[mxt0133]

cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I have asked myself this question many times as I have researched education reform.  From all the books, articles, and personal conversations with teachers and parents, my personal conclusion on why nothing has changed is because it is not meant to be changed.  The public education system with all it's resources does not see anything fundamentally wrong as those who advocate for reform do, therefore nothing will really change.

I mean it is just logical on why inner city schools have been failing since the 1970's, no matter how much money you throw at it, how many administrators and consultants, nothing has changed.  It hasn't changed because it is working exactly as people want it to work.

[Sid888]

Probably going to be crucified for this, but does what you learn in elementary school and high school honestly really matter that much? As long as you can read with some level of comprehension, do math to basic algebra, carry on a CIVIL conversation about differing opinions, don't eat paste, and don't hit other classmates, you're about at the level of 101 college classes. Lots of publicly schooled adults are clueless (just look at the AntiMustachian Hall of Shame), and a lot of public and home schools teach dated or incorrect information. My history classes were all taught by the same woman, and her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us to vote Democratic forever. That was pretty much all I remember. Bush is bad. Republicans are evil. Neo conservatives are some kind of shadow group controlling the government secretly. Vote Democratic, or be slaves to evil big businesses forever (because owning a big business is morally wrong). This is what she taught EVER SINGLE graduating class in that town.
My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing how lesbians are more morally correct than gay men, how it's morally ok to divorce your wife if she gains 30 pounds in middle age because she voided your marriage contract (his pot belly and balding head don't count as violations) and how his giant pet python was trying to kill him (it was, he and another teacher eventually put it outside on a winter night and got drunk while they watched it freeze to death, which he informed us gleefully was actually exquistively painful for the snake). He also told me that he didn't like me, and that if I signed up for any math classes after I finished the minimum math credits necessary for graduation, he would make sure I flunked them.
Not everyone goes to public schools as crappy as mine was, but some people do. And some people are homeschooled by parents who do a crappy job. And you are surrounded by people who had crappy K-12 education every day, and you don't even notice for the most part. I know people who went to excellent private schools and don't have the math skills to figure out what their MPG were on their last tank of gas. I can't honestly remember most of what I drilled so dedicatedly in high school, and I'm willing to bet most people don't remember much more than I do. Anyways, I think the point of K-12 is to teach you basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way. And to babysit kids so both parents can work. You can learn these things pretty easily being homeschooled. I'm not saying homeschooling is great for everyone, but I think the choice is more about lifestyle than it is about education. You can always take a 90 level college course if you're really behind, but 13 years of bullying, boredom, and aggressive brainwashing is harder to fix.

Really, this all happened to the extent you say it did?  "My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing...", "her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us..."  It's sounds like your values were being challenged and you simply didn't agree.  That too, is education.  In fact, being challenged and made to feel uncomfortable (at times) fosters critical thinking and that is something that you will take with you your whole life.

[BeginninginWisedom]

On Topic Only this time, I promise.

We homeschooled for over 21 years, so we have watched a whole generation of homeschoolers grow up, go to college or begin careers, get married, start families, and live very productive lives. In the group there are 2 mining engineers, 2 computer programmers, 2 pastors, a truck driver/missionary, a teacher, 3 stay at home moms.

Actually, these kids were raised in many ways in the  Mustachian way because we were one income families.Most of us were not able to save,(which is why I am here now) but we have been rewarded for our efforts in other ways.

Our family had 1 car that my husband took to work, and it was an older used car. The kids and I walked a lot. We had a park close by we went to almost daily. The library was our place for entertainment. The kids were all avid readers on many subjects. Plus, we could check out movies and books on tape for free entertainment.

The kids started their own businesses so they would have money to buy anything that they wanted, because we did not have extra as a family. They raked leaves, shoveled snow,  babysat, and house sat. There was a homemade YOYO business, a homemade kite business, homemade bookends were made and sold.And a new business was even born into our family, we thought we had 2 male gerbils for pets, but when we woke up one morning to gerbil babies, we knew the pet shop owner had made a mistake. ( It has been said that you cant
fool a homeschooler)The kids sold the baby gerbils to a pet shop when the gerbils were big enough. This was excellent learning for them with handling money.

Tuesdays in elementary school were project days. You needed to have a project, of your choice, that you were working on yourself .This is where motors and robots  were built from kits. Crafts were made and stories were written. Businesses were born.

Reading was huge in our home. Once you could read, you were done with reading programs, and you read real books. We read many of the classics and enjoyed them very much.

It is very hard work home schooling, but it is a wonderful choice if you choose to make.

It can be done very inexpensively, particularly in elementary school.

[Sid888]

I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I think a huge problem with this is that pretty much every SINGLE parent and administrator will have different ideas about what is a "good" education. Some people value drama clubs and art class. Others value rigorous academics, or strict discipline, or creative freedom. Teachers aren't just teaching facts, they're passing on their personal morals and values and shaping how kids perceive learning and the world in general. Every time this message clashes with the parents' values, some parents will clamor for the teacher to be fired. Realistically, your kid can catch up from sixth grade to graduation in one year of community college, but you can't undo 8 heours a day of someone else teaching your kid how to think. Maybe that person is wonderful, and passes on better lessons than you could (I did have amazing teachers), or maybe they're angry and bitter and cynical and controlling and sadistic. I think that's why many parents want to home school. They want to make sure their values, which they think are necessary for long term happiness, are taught, instead of some stranger's. And BTW, homeschooled kids can participate in professional theater, community sports with semi professional athletes, actually start small businesses, and take classes far above high school level. I'm looking at taking six week ethnobotany classes. You live in the woods and learn about herbal medicine, native plants, and their relationship with native peoples. A homeschooled kid could take this class, but it would be tricky for a public school kid to do the spring camp, important for identifying flowering plants. I'm not totally anti public schools, I just think academic and socialization opportunities exist on both. It's really about lifestyle and personal values.

The values that you attempt to impart to your children will be challenged at some point.  In fact, if you let them watch TV, have friends or work a job, there's a good chance that some of your values are being challenged right now.  Just because a child is in a school, does not mean that  a parent cannot impart strong values to their child if they have an open relationship with them and take the time to use "teachable" moments to explain their values to their child.  There seems to be a very strong element of parental CONTROL over children among those choosing to home school their kids.  This is worrisome because it seems like an attempt to keep their children away from real issues, problems and different ways of thinking while their children are under their roofs.  This will harm a child's perception of the world and, at the same time, stunt their ability to critically think about issues that challenge the base values they have been taught in their home.

[iwasjustwondering]

I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I think a huge problem with this is that pretty much every SINGLE parent and administrator will have different ideas about what is a "good" education. Some people value drama clubs and art class. Others value rigorous academics, or strict discipline, or creative freedom. Teachers aren't just teaching facts, they're passing on their personal morals and values and shaping how kids perceive learning and the world in general. Every time this message clashes with the parents' values, some parents will clamor for the teacher to be fired. Realistically, your kid can catch up from sixth grade to graduation in one year of community college, but you can't undo 8 heours a day of someone else teaching your kid how to think. Maybe that person is wonderful, and passes on better lessons than you could (I did have amazing teachers), or maybe they're angry and bitter and cynical and controlling and sadistic. I think that's why many parents want to home school. They want to make sure their values, which they think are necessary for long term happiness, are taught, instead of some stranger's. And BTW, homeschooled kids can participate in professional theater, community sports with semi professional athletes, actually start small businesses, and take classes far above high school level. I'm looking at taking six week ethnobotany classes. You live in the woods and learn about herbal medicine, native plants, and their relationship with native peoples. A homeschooled kid could take this class, but it would be tricky for a public school kid to do the spring camp, important for identifying flowering plants. I'm not totally anti public schools, I just think academic and socialization opportunities exist on both. It's really about lifestyle and personal values.

The values that you attempt to impart to your children will be challenged at some point.  In fact, if you let them watch TV, have friends or work a job, there's a good chance that some of your values are being challenged right now.  Just because a child is in a school, does not mean that  a parent cannot impart strong values to their child if they have an open relationship with them and take the time to use "teachable" moments to explain their values to their child.  There seems to be a very strong element of parental CONTROL over children among those choosing to home school their kids.  This is worrisome because it seems like an attempt to keep their children away from real issues, problems and different ways of thinking while their children are under their roofs.  This will harm a child's perception of the world and, at the same time, stunt their ability to critically think about issues that challenge the base values they have been taught in their home.

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society. 

[Sid888]

cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I have asked myself this question many times as I have researched education reform.  From all the books, articles, and personal conversations with teachers and parents, my personal conclusion on why nothing has changed is because it is not meant to be changed.  The public education system with all it's resources does not see anything fundamentally wrong as those who advocate for reform do, therefore nothing will really change.

I mean it is just logical on why inner city schools have been failing since the 1970's, no matter how much money you throw at it, how many administrators and consultants, nothing has changed.  It hasn't changed because it is working exactly as people want it to work.

It has changed in one basic way since the 1970s.  Funding for urban and rural, i.e. poor school districts has decreased.

[James]

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society.

Or it is adding diversity to the homogeny of public school. It really is all in perspective... :)
 
Sometime out-of-the-box thinking comes from out-of-the-box people. and it doesn't get much more out-of-the-box than homeschooling. And MMM is certainly out-of-the-box as well. Not that they must or even should go together, just saying being open to differences isn't just about sending all kids into public schools so they can integrate with the standards there. There is value to the general population in supporting choice, even when you don't understand or support the other side. For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion.

[Gin1984]

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society.

Or it is adding diversity to the homogeny of public school. It really is all in perspective... :)
 
Sometime out-of-the-box thinking comes from out-of-the-box people. and it doesn't get much more out-of-the-box than homeschooling. And MMM is certainly out-of-the-box as well. Not that they must or even should go together, just saying being open to differences isn't just about sending all kids into public schools so they can integrate with the standards there. There is value to the general population in supporting choice, even when you don't understand or support the other side. For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion.

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

[Sid888]

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society.

Or it is adding diversity to the homogeny of public school. It really is all in perspective... :)
 
Sometime out-of-the-box thinking comes from out-of-the-box people. and it doesn't get much more out-of-the-box than homeschooling. And MMM is certainly out-of-the-box as well. Not that they must or even should go together, just saying being open to differences isn't just about sending all kids into public schools so they can integrate with the standards there. There is value to the general population in supporting choice, even when you don't understand or support the other side. For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion.

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

I agree.  Diversity does have value but should not outweigh letting this nation's education system foster (and help fund) a level of ignorance to science and other common values in the United States that will hurt innocent children that do not have a choice in what they are taught in a very CONTROLLED and limited home school environment.

[UnleashHell]

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society.

Or it is adding diversity to the homogeny of public school. It really is all in perspective... :)
 
Sometime out-of-the-box thinking comes from out-of-the-box people. and it doesn't get much more out-of-the-box than homeschooling. And MMM is certainly out-of-the-box as well. Not that they must or even should go together, just saying being open to differences isn't just about sending all kids into public schools so they can integrate with the standards there. There is value to the general population in supporting choice, even when you don't understand or support the other side. For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion.

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

I agree.  Diversity does have value but should not outweigh letting this nation's education system foster (and help fund) a level of ignorance to science and other common values in the United States that will hurt innocent children that do not have a choice in what they are taught in a very CONTROLLED and limited home school environment.

As the homeschooled population is quite small I think you'll find its the limited and controlled kiddie prisons that are failing on the education front. and those innocent kiddies in that environement are the ones being let down. For the large part Homeschooled families are the ones that put a huge vested interest in their kids education are are very involved in the process.

[Skyhigh]

Homeschooling:

Our kids are a mix of public and home schooled. In our state kids can go to the first two years of university for free. Homeschooling seems to better prepare them for this opportunity. Home schooled kids are more independent and self driven at a younger age and socialize better with a broad range of ages and maturity levels.

Not only can home schooling save a fortune in college expenses but it does cost money to attend school in the form of transporting kids to school functions and in providing for supplies, lunches and other never ending fees and expenses.

[James]

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

You need to go out and meet some homeschoolers, you have a very narrow view of who they are and what they do. If I agreed to your premise that homeschoolers were what you described, I would simpathize with your opinion. But thankfully I know first hand that is not the case of most homeschoolers, and I know first hand people in public school with the attitudes and opinions you described. The world is not as black and white as you believe.

[Scandium]

I don't know where people get the idea that public school in and of itself = exposure to diversity.

My public school had 2 "non white" children (one South Korean, one Indian), both were adoptees into white families (so, culturally, they were raised "white").
Everyone in my public school was Christian.  Primarily Methodist or Baptist, though there were 2 Catholic families, a small handful of Episcopalians, and at least 1 Presbyterian family.

It doesn't get much more homogenous than that.  My school system spanned 4 counties.

It can get more homogeneous than that; only your two parents.

[Gin1984]

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

You need to go out and meet some homeschoolers, you have a very narrow view of who they are and what they do. If I agreed to your premise that homeschoolers were what you described, I would simpathize with your opinion. But thankfully I know first hand that is not the case of most homeschoolers, and I know first hand people in public school with the attitudes and opinions you described. The world is not as black and white as you believe.

I did not say all home schoolers were like that and I was responded to another poster which you seemed to ignore "For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion."  This was specifically in reference to the issue of home schooling and removing knowledge from children by controlling access to facts that disagrees with the parent opinion which was part of the discussion in previous posts.  I'm saying it is a big enough issue/ harm to certain children that allowing home school may not be something we as a society should allow.  Yes there are parents who do home school well, but is the risk of harm worth it based on the ones that do not do it well? 
Should those who teach need an advanced degree or teaching credential in what they teach, is that something important to us as a society?

[zoltani]

[zoltani]

Here it shows that 25% of parents of homeschoolers have high school diploma or less. Are they qualified to homeschool?

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_3.asp

36% of parents getting their educational materials from religious organizations.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/TableDisplay.asp?TablePath=TablesHTML/table_5.asp

[UnleashHell]

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but even if they are right it means that 66% of homeschool parents aren’t basing the curriculum on religious texts.

Of the 34% that are do you think they only get their text from Religious outlets?

Does it include the people who buy 2nd hand stuff for homeschool? Or go online?

Where as 100% of kids in schools know everything and are in great environment because teachers know everything and theres never any wasted time at school. Or problems. Etc.

[zoltani]

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but even if they are right it means that 66% of homeschool parents aren’t basing the curriculum on religious texts.

Of the 34% that are do you think they only get their text from Religious outlets?

Does it include the people who buy 2nd hand stuff for homeschool? Or go online?

Where as 100% of kids in schools know everything and are in great environment because teachers know everything and theres never any wasted time at school. Or problems. Etc.

No idea where figures are from? I posted the link right there.

No, people who use religious texts do not solely use them.

If you poke around on the website you will see that these are based on surveys. Wait i know your next question: Did every homeschool parent respond to survey?

Pleas note that environment is the #1 reason people homeschool. IDK where you got that last sentence as I was not saying that. However, i do know the percentage of students in public school getting their education from religious sources, wanna guess what it is?

[Gin1984]

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but even if they are right it means that 66% of homeschool parents aren’t basing the curriculum on religious texts.

Of the 34% that are do you think they only get their text from Religious outlets?

Does it include the people who buy 2nd hand stuff for homeschool? Or go online?

Where as 100% of kids in schools know everything and are in great environment because teachers know everything and theres never any wasted time at school. Or problems. Etc.

Well it is pretty clear where he is getting his figures from, given that he posted the links.   And point remains, are we as a society happy to fail at least 1/3 of our children by teaching falsehoods?  I'm not saying public school is great but should we not have a minumum standard for those who teach the next generation, not having 25% of those teaching home school having a high school degree or less?  I am a fan of online school or additional teaching by the parents and I can even get on board with home school, if it meet or exceeds public school, but that is not always the case and should that not be a basic standard?

[UnleashHell]

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but even if they are right it means that 66% of homeschool parents aren’t basing the curriculum on religious texts.

Of the 34% that are do you think they only get their text from Religious outlets?

Does it include the people who buy 2nd hand stuff for homeschool? Or go online?

Where as 100% of kids in schools know everything and are in great environment because teachers know everything and theres never any wasted time at school. Or problems. Etc.

Well it is pretty clear where he is getting his figures from, given that he posted the links.   And point remains, are we as a society happy to fail at least 1/3 of our children by teaching falsehoods?  I'm not saying public school is great but should we not have a minumum standard for those who teach the next generation, not having 25% of those teaching home school having a high school degree or less?  I am a fan of online school or additional teaching by the parents and I can even get on board with home school, if it meet or exceeds public school, but that is not always the case and should that not be a basic standard?

a standard?
Being as the education system can't agree on a standard then what are homeschool parents going to be judged by? And by Whom?

[zoltani]

I have no idea where you are getting your figures from but even if they are right it means that 66% of homeschool parents aren’t basing the curriculum on religious texts.

Of the 34% that are do you think they only get their text from Religious outlets?

Does it include the people who buy 2nd hand stuff for homeschool? Or go online?

Where as 100% of kids in schools know everything and are in great environment because teachers know everything and theres never any wasted time at school. Or problems. Etc.

Well it is pretty clear where he is getting his figures from, given that he posted the links.   And point remains, are we as a society happy to fail at least 1/3 of our children by teaching falsehoods?  I'm not saying public school is great but should we not have a minumum standard for those who teach the next generation, not having 25% of those teaching home school having a high school degree or less?  I am a fan of online school or additional teaching by the parents and I can even get on board with home school, if it meet or exceeds public school, but that is not always the case and should that not be a basic standard?

a standard?
Being as the education system can't agree on a standard then what are homeschool parents going to be judged by? And by Whom?

Maybe start here:

"All states require public high school teachers to have at least a bachelor’s degree. Most states require high school teachers to have majored in a subject area, such as chemistry or history. While majoring in a subject area, future teachers typically enroll in their higher education’s teacher preparation program and take classes in education and child psychology as well.

In teacher education programs, prospective high school teachers learn how to present information to students and how to work with students of varying abilities and backgrounds. Programs typically include fieldwork, such as student teaching. For information about teacher preparation programs in your state, visit Teach.org.

Some states require high school teachers to earn a master’s degree after earning their teaching certification.

Teachers in private schools do not need to meet state requirements. However, private schools typically seek high school teachers who have a bachelor’s degree and a major in a subject area."

SOURCE http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm#tab-4

[UnleashHell]

so private schools can do what they like. why aren't they held to the same standards?

[Gin1984]

so private schools can do what they like. why aren't they held to the same standards?

I went to a private school and with a few exceptions all the grammar school teachers had their teaching credential and those exemptions were a teacher that was trained in Canada and then taught overseas for few years and the PE teachers (oh a a volunteer mother who taught after school in Spanish, a non-required class).  And in both grammar and high school every single teacher had a bachelors, in high school some had master's in their field.  I think a bachelors would be a bare minimum as a standard.

[BeginninginWisedom]

Agreed.  The homeschooling trend is balkanizing the American population, where no one has to be challenged or understand that there is a life outside one's own small subsection of society.

Or it is adding diversity to the homogeny of public school. It really is all in perspective... :)
 
Sometime out-of-the-box thinking comes from out-of-the-box people. and it doesn't get much more out-of-the-box than homeschooling. And MMM is certainly out-of-the-box as well. Not that they must or even should go together, just saying being open to differences isn't just about sending all kids into public schools so they can integrate with the standards there. There is value to the general population in supporting choice, even when you don't understand or support the other side. For whatever reason homeschoolers make that choice, it adds diversity and a different mind set to society that should be appreciated, even if there are some kids get screwed by it, just as some get screwed in public school. We should fight poor education on both sides while celebrating the successes on both sides. The overall benefit of diversity of experiences adds benefit to society in my opinion.

But that diversity is how we now have a society where facts don't matter, what you feel does.  I'm sorry but teaching children falsehoods does not benefit society in any way shape or form.  That is the attitude that spawned "evolution is just a theory" showing ignorance on basic science terminology (something that should be taught in middle/grammar school), and "we believe it is an aborfactant even though no medical doctor does so you should let us change laws to fit our delusions" and finally "we should have measles parties".  All of this ties into lets appreciate differences.  No, when you start harming people, that should not be appreciated.

First, I think its important that you know the students in our home were tested every other year with the Iowa Basics or Stanford Achievement test. We were in the top 86% to 99% every time. On the ACT College test we had a student score a 34 in science. This child was in the top 99% in the nation. Science is so much more than evolution. Education is so much more than evolution. Faith in God we believe to be number one. We don't ask you to believe as we do unless, we would love it if you would for your sake, because we believe its right. What did you get on your tests with your knowledge of evolution? My student was in the top 99%. This is written to help come your fears. Our kids are grown and doing great.

[zoltani]

so private schools can do what they like. why aren't they held to the same standards?

I am not sure that is the case, but if interested you can contact your state board of education.
http://www.fldoe.org/

[UnleashHell]

no.
I'm not that interested. thanks for offering though.
I'm happy that homeschooling is available.
don't understand the fear that people have about it. Take away the stories and fairy tales, do soem research and then you'll start wondering why more people aren't doing it.

For the record I think our resident creationist is a nut job believing that crap but I'll happily defend her right to homeschool her kids.

[Gin1984]

no.
I'm not that interested. thanks for offering though.
I'm happy that homeschooling is available.
don't understand the fear that people have about it. Take away the stories and fairy tales, do soem research and then you'll start wondering why more people aren't doing it.

For the record I think our resident creationist is a nut job believing that crap but I'll happily defend her right to homeschool her kids.

Speaking of which, what happened to the other thread?

[UnleashHell]

no.
I'm not that interested. thanks for offering though.
I'm happy that homeschooling is available.
don't understand the fear that people have about it. Take away the stories and fairy tales, do soem research and then you'll start wondering why more people aren't doing it.

For the record I think our resident creationist is a nut job believing that crap but I'll happily defend her right to homeschool her kids.

Speaking of which, what happened to the other thread?

maybe it evolved.....

[leherself]

Even in the best cases the education will be filtered through the parent's preferences, rather than a education standards developed by a huge group of scientist do determine what's the essential things a function member of society should know.

In what country are education standards guided by a scientific determination of what functional members of society need to know?  Because in the United States they're largely determined by committees of laypeople and lobbyists, and then argued about by politicians.  Our educational models are not research based, as a rule - sure there are pedagogical studies, psychology of eductation, etc.  But their research results don't get implemented because of science - they get implemented according to the political process.

Public education may or may not result in a better education than the parents can provide.  That depends on the school, and the parents.  But it has nothing to do with "science."

[BeginninginWisedom]

I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I think a huge problem with this is that pretty much every SINGLE parent and administrator will have different ideas about what is a "good" education. Some people value drama clubs and art class. Others value rigorous academics, or strict discipline, or creative freedom. Teachers aren't just teaching facts, they're passing on their personal morals and values and shaping how kids perceive learning and the world in general. Every time this message clashes with the parents' values, some parents will clamor for the teacher to be fired. Realistically, your kid can catch up from sixth grade to graduation in one year of community college, but you can't undo 8 heours a day of someone else teaching your kid how to think. Maybe that person is wonderful, and passes on better lessons than you could (I did have amazing teachers), or maybe they're angry and bitter and cynical and controlling and sadistic. I think that's why many parents want to home school. They want to make sure their values, which they think are necessary for long term happiness, are taught, instead of some stranger's. And BTW, homeschooled kids can participate in professional theater, community sports with semi professional athletes, actually start small businesses, and take classes far above high school level. I'm looking at taking six week ethnobotany classes. You live in the woods and learn about herbal medicine, native plants, and their relationship with native peoples. A homeschooled kid could take this class, but it would be tricky for a public school kid to do the spring camp, important for identifying flowering plants. I'm not totally anti public schools, I just think academic and socialization opportunities exist on both. It's really about lifestyle and personal values.

The values that you attempt to impart to your children will be challenged at some point.  In fact, if you let them watch TV, have friends or work a job, there's a good chance that some of your values are being challenged right now.  Just because a child is in a school, does not mean that  a parent cannot impart strong values to their child if they have an open relationship with them and take the time to use "teachable" moments to explain their values to their child.  There seems to be a very strong element of parental CONTROL over children among those choosing to home school their kids.  This is worrisome because it seems like an attempt to keep their children away from real issues, problems and different ways of thinking while their children are under their roofs.  This will harm a child's perception of the world and, at the same time, stunt their ability to critically think about issues that challenge the base values they have been taught in their home.

But you're wrong. Do you have children?

 What harmful values do you think Christian parents impose on their children. Is it hard work, honesty,love your neighbor,"to whom much is given much is expected: in other words you've been very blessed be sure to use it well in this world. Children don't run from that if their parents are trying to live it out before them. They thrive in this environment.

Is believing in evolution "it"? Is it what makes life worthwhile? How do you use the evolutionary theory in your everyday life? Please, tell me.

One can understand the theory, and not believe it, and yet live a very successful life.

I will repost this post I posted to Gin1984 from earlier.

Please there is real evidence being offered to you, think about it.


First, I think its important that you know the students in our home were tested every other year with the Iowa Basics or Stanford Achievement test. We were in the top 86% to 99% every time. On the ACT College test we had a student score a 34 in science. This child was in the top 99% in the nation. Science is so much more than evolution. Education is so much more than evolution. Faith in God we believe to be number one. We don't ask you to believe as we do unless, we would love it if you would for your sake, because we believe its right. What did you get on your tests with your knowledge of evolution? My student was in the top 99%. This is written to help come your fears. Our kids are grown and doing great.

 And please let us know your science score on your college exam.

[Bookworm]

Over the years, one or another of my children has attended just about every type of school: public, private, home-based public charter, brick-and-mortar public charter, independent homeschool, boarding school, and correspondence. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and the right fit for each child varies based on the family, the child, and the circumstances of life.

MMM is a thoughtful, principled, intelligent, and conscientious person. I have zero doubt that he will provide for his son's every need. People may discount him because he homeschools, or because he swears, or because he is passionately optimistic, or...so many things, but I see no reason why any of those would keep me from recommending him, or make me feel compelled to defend his choices. People quick to dismiss wisdom because small pieces of a person's worldview don't fit into their personal comfort zone are difficult to reason with, anyway.

[Annamal]

Children don't run from that if their parents are trying to live it out before them. They thrive in this environment.

Unless of course they are gay
 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-forsaken-a-rising-number-of-homeless-gay-teens-are-being-cast-out-by-religious-families-20140903

Or sleep with the wrong person (a high-school friend was kicked out by her highly religious family for sleeping with someone at a Christian camp). I suppose technically she didn't run as such, she was run out but it was still pretty damaging.

My parents are Christian (although closer to deists) and gave me a fantastic upbringing but there are a lot of bad stories out there.

[prof61820]

Public education may or may not result in a better education than the parents can provide.  That depends on the school, and the parents.  But it has nothing to do with "science."

Public education provides a better education than the vast majority of most parents could ever dream of providing.  That's exactly why it exists.

[BeginninginWisedom]

Children don't run from that if their parents are trying to live it out before them. They thrive in this environment.

Unless of course they are gay
 http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-forsaken-a-rising-number-of-homeless-gay-teens-are-being-cast-out-by-religious-families-20140903

Or sleep with the wrong person (a high-school friend was kicked out by her highly religious family for sleeping with someone at a Christian camp). I suppose technically she didn't run as such, she was run out but it was still pretty damaging.


My parents are Christian (although closer to deists) and gave me a fantastic upbringing but there are a lot of bad stories out there.

And do you want to look at the many, many good stories? The kids that were in our home schooling community are now in their 20's and 30's. They are pretty wonderful people to be around.

Many of them were in the top of their class at secular colleges, and all put out 100% effort. These children did thrive and many are planning to or all ready do home school their own children. None have left the Christian Faith, and all seem to live out their faith in a more glorious way , then we their parents. My children are so much more gracious than I am. I love to be with them and their families.

[cpa cat]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

Here is the link to the same study, same question, but for 2012 (the most recent available):

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013028/tables/table_08.asp

Given that the homeschooling environment has changed between 2002 and 2012, using outdated stats seemed incredibly biased. For example, only 60% of the US population had access to the internet in 2002, and only 7% had broadband service in their home.

[Sid888]

I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.

I think a huge problem with this is that pretty much every SINGLE parent and administrator will have different ideas about what is a "good" education. Some people value drama clubs and art class. Others value rigorous academics, or strict discipline, or creative freedom. Teachers aren't just teaching facts, they're passing on their personal morals and values and shaping how kids perceive learning and the world in general. Every time this message clashes with the parents' values, some parents will clamor for the teacher to be fired. Realistically, your kid can catch up from sixth grade to graduation in one year of community college, but you can't undo 8 heours a day of someone else teaching your kid how to think. Maybe that person is wonderful, and passes on better lessons than you could (I did have amazing teachers), or maybe they're angry and bitter and cynical and controlling and sadistic. I think that's why many parents want to home school. They want to make sure their values, which they think are necessary for long term happiness, are taught, instead of some stranger's. And BTW, homeschooled kids can participate in professional theater, community sports with semi professional athletes, actually start small businesses, and take classes far above high school level. I'm looking at taking six week ethnobotany classes. You live in the woods and learn about herbal medicine, native plants, and their relationship with native peoples. A homeschooled kid could take this class, but it would be tricky for a public school kid to do the spring camp, important for identifying flowering plants. I'm not totally anti public schools, I just think academic and socialization opportunities exist on both. It's really about lifestyle and personal values.

The values that you attempt to impart to your children will be challenged at some point.  In fact, if you let them watch TV, have friends or work a job, there's a good chance that some of your values are being challenged right now.  Just because a child is in a school, does not mean that  a parent cannot impart strong values to their child if they have an open relationship with them and take the time to use "teachable" moments to explain their values to their child.  There seems to be a very strong element of parental CONTROL over children among those choosing to home school their kids.  This is worrisome because it seems like an attempt to keep their children away from real issues, problems and different ways of thinking while their children are under their roofs.  This will harm a child's perception of the world and, at the same time, stunt their ability to critically think about issues that challenge the base values they have been taught in their home.

But you're wrong. Do you have children?

 What harmful values do you think Christian parents impose on their children. Is it hard work, honesty,love your neighbor,"to whom much is given much is expected: in other words you've been very blessed be sure to use it well in this world. Children don't run from that if their parents are trying to live it out before them. They thrive in this environment.

Is believing in evolution "it"? Is it what makes life worthwhile? How do you use the evolutionary theory in your everyday life? Please, tell me.

One can understand the theory, and not believe it, and yet live a very successful life.

I will repost this post I posted to Gin1984 from earlier.

Please there is real evidence being offered to you, think about it.


First, I think its important that you know the students in our home were tested every other year with the Iowa Basics or Stanford Achievement test. We were in the top 86% to 99% every time. On the ACT College test we had a student score a 34 in science. This child was in the top 99% in the nation. Science is so much more than evolution. Education is so much more than evolution. Faith in God we believe to be number one. We don't ask you to believe as we do unless, we would love it if you would for your sake, because we believe its right. What did you get on your tests with your knowledge of evolution? My student was in the top 99%. This is written to help come your fears. Our kids are grown and doing great.

 And please let us know your science score on your college exam.

I don't think Christian values are harmful at all - I actually think they are good - so long as they don't trump everything else.

Did you home school more to control what your children were taught or to provide the best education possible in your area and within your family budget?  Since public education is "free," why didn't you just augment your children's public education?  Did you consider a Catholic Education?  Catholic schools are vey affordable and also teach strong Christian values?

Test scores are little like grades, I take them with a grain of salt.  Test scores are important but can be manipulated if a child is taught to the test.  I believe that a school and parents should teach critical thinking and facts more than anything else but since test scores are becoming so "valued" by administrators, teachers are working hard to bump up test scores more than actually teaching these days.

Ignorance of science and shared values starts to become a problem for society when it leads to measles outbreaks and other preventable problems.  Just ask the folks at Disney - they will be hit hard if cases of measles keep popping up at their theme park.

[Sid888]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

80% list "A desire to provide religious instruction" as "important or "most important."

[cpa cat]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

Can you post a link?

Yes. Sorry. I updated my original post.

[thepokercab]

Over the years, one or another of my children has attended just about every type of school: public, private, home-based public charter, brick-and-mortar public charter, independent homeschool, boarding school, and correspondence. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and the right fit for each child varies based on the family, the child, and the circumstances of life.

MMM is a thoughtful, principled, intelligent, and conscientious person. I have zero doubt that he will provide for his son's every need. People may discount him because he homeschools, or because he swears, or because he is passionately optimistic, or...so many things, but I see no reason why any of those would keep me from recommending him, or make me feel compelled to defend his choices. People quick to dismiss wisdom because small pieces of a person's worldview don't fit into their personal comfort zone are difficult to reason with, anyway.

Smartest thing I've read on this thread.  What school did you go to? 

[RunHappy]

I say successful home schooling depends on the kids and also the parent.  Some kids learn better outside a class environment but others need it. 

I was one of those kids that really could have benefitted from home schooling.  The first high school I went too, there were over 4k kids enrolled.  It was very easy to get lost in the crowd and being very shy (then) I did.  Unless you were a scholar AND an athlete or constantly starting fights the adults just kind of passed you over.  I actually used to skip class and spend time in the library.  I managed to pass each grade but barely (mostly because I wasn't in class I was in the library).  The second high school I transferred to required less HS credits than my previous one so all I needed were the required senior classes.  Half of my day was spent in class and the other half in study hall (because legally I had to be there).

I didn't go to college as an adult because the 4 years I spent in HS I considered a waste, although I did attempt it when I was in my late 20's but ended up dropping out because of the drama.  I've always say that I got a better education from the library than I did from any class I sat in.

opinion:  I've ready MMM's reasons on why they are home schooling and I don't 100% agree with them.  I think MMM will do a good job because I do think he and his wife are intelligent people who are able to take the long view.  What I don't agree with is that little MMM wanted to do it because he thought some of the rules at school were dumb. Most kids I know think that school rules are dumb, however that is life. In life we don't get to pick and choose the rules we want to follow.

[cpa cat]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

80% list "A desire to provide religious instruction" as "important or "most important."

When I click on the link that I posted for 2012, it says that only 64% list religious instruction as important. Only 16% say that religious instruction is most important. That's not 64+16 = 80. The first question is an "all that apply" question - Note that "Important" factors equal greater than 100% - because people chose more than one answer. For "Most Important" they had to choose only one answer - so responses add up to 100%.

[Purple Economist]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

80% list "A desire to provide religious instruction" as "important or "most important."

I sure hope you weren't educated in public schools or even in private schools as you are not a very good advertisement for them if you were.  Your critical thinking skills are not very good if you looked at that chart and came up with 80% listing "A desire to provide religious instruction" as "important" or "most important."

[mxt0133]

In life we don't get to pick and choose the rules we want to follow.

I'm going to disagree on this one.  We all have a choice.  You don't like paying taxes then don't work and be prepared for the consequences.  You don't like the laws of the country you live in try and change them or move to another country.  What about criminals they choose not follow the rules and some know full well what those consequences are and continue to do so (not really a socially good example but that's not what we are discussing)?

This is coming from the point of view of a first generation immigrant that had parents that did not want us to grow up in a third world country so they worked hard, got a work resident program in the US, left us for about two years to earn enough money to bring us over, and then worked multiple jobs so that we could focus on school and earn scholarships to college.

I have worked in places where the culture and policies changed it was my choice to stay or go, most of the time I left.  The times I did stay I weighted the consequences of leaving and decided to suck it up until is was comfortable leaving.

I never subscribed to the philosophy of needing to put kids through things like public school just so they learn to deal with it because that's how life will be like when they grow up.  I would much rather teach them that they have options but they have to know the consequences when they choose those options.

[zoltani]

 What harmful values do you think Christian parents impose on their children.

[zoltani]

Why are you pulling this from the 2002 study? There's a much more recent study that shows that this table is vastly outdated.

Here is the link to the same study, same question, but for 2012 (the most recent available):

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2013/2013028/tables/table_08.asp

Given that the homeschooling environment has changed between 2002 and 2012, using outdated stats seemed incredibly biased. For example, only 60% of the US population had access to the internet in 2002, and only 7% had broadband service in their home.

I googled stats and that is what came up, thank you for providing the updated stats. The chart above must be showing the right column in the link you provided.

[RunHappy]

In life we don't get to pick and choose the rules we want to follow.

I'm going to disagree on this one.  We all have a choice.  You don't like paying taxes then don't work and be prepared for the consequences.  You don't like the laws of the country you live in try and change them or move to another country.  What about criminals they choose not follow the rules and some know full well what those consequences are and continue to do so (not really a socially good example but that's not what we are discussing)?

This is coming from the point of view of a first generation immigrant that had parents that did not want us to grow up in a third world country so they worked hard, got a work resident program in the US, left us for about two years to earn enough money to bring us over, and then worked multiple jobs so that we could focus on school and earn scholarships to college.

I have worked in places where the culture and policies changed it was my choice to stay or go, most of the time I left.  The times I did stay I weighted the consequences of leaving and decided to suck it up until is was comfortable leaving.

I never subscribed to the philosophy of needing to put kids through things like public school just so they learn to deal with it because that's how life will be like when they grow up.  I would much rather teach them that they have options but they have to know the consequences when they choose those options.

I should have qualified that line, but I didn't think it needed it.  Yes that is true we can choose to not follow which every rule we want as long as we are prepared to pay the consequences (Unibomber, Charles Manson, etc proved that).   

There could be other reasons why little MMM wanted to be home schooled but the ones that were pointed out was because some of school was dumb.  That is what I don't agree with.  Just because you think something is dumb doesn't make you exempt.  When I was raising my kid, I always taught them they need to be able back up your decision with 3 reasons why and "dumb" and "because I want to" doesn't cut it (I think it did a good job because one time I got a powerpoint presentation on summer camp).

My problem is once you start telling the little ones they don't have to follow the dumb rules (laws), where does it stop?   I have a big issue with people who think the rules (laws) don't apply to them because they are special.  I see it all the time when I fly (just one example out of a lifetime).  Another example is my friends were teaching their teen to drive.   One time I was driving with them they noted to the teen it was ok to go over the speed limit and to not worry about it because the speed limits are dumb.  Fast forward a year the teen gets 2 tickets for speeding, they ground and take the keys away.  I pointed out to them they are punishing for something they previously allowed.

Most rules (laws)  are probably created arbitrarily (haven't researched every one) and there is always going to be someone out there in the world who will think one of them is dumb, however that is society and what keeps a society governed.

[AllChoptUp]

In life we don't get to pick and choose the rules we want to follow.

I'm going to disagree on this one.  We all have a choice.  You don't like paying taxes then don't work and be prepared for the consequences.  You don't like the laws of the country you live in try and change them or move to another country.  What about criminals they choose not follow the rules and some know full well what those consequences are and continue to do so (not really a socially good example but that's not what we are discussing)?

This is coming from the point of view of a first generation immigrant that had parents that did not want us to grow up in a third world country so they worked hard, got a work resident program in the US, left us for about two years to earn enough money to bring us over, and then worked multiple jobs so that we could focus on school and earn scholarships to college.

I have worked in places where the culture and policies changed it was my choice to stay or go, most of the time I left.  The times I did stay I weighted the consequences of leaving and decided to suck it up until is was comfortable leaving.

I never subscribed to the philosophy of needing to put kids through things like public school just so they learn to deal with it because that's how life will be like when they grow up.  I would much rather teach them that they have options but they have to know the consequences when they choose those options.

I should have qualified that line, but I didn't think it needed it.  Yes that is true we can choose to not follow which every rule we want as long as we are prepared to pay the consequences (Unibomber, Charles Manson, etc proved that).   

My problem is once you start telling the little ones they don't have to follow the dumb rules (laws), where does it stop?   I have a big issue with people who think the rules (laws) don't apply to them because they are special.  I see it all the time when I fly (just one example out of a lifetime).  Most rules(laws)  are probably created arbitrarily (haven't researched it) and there is always going to be someone out there in the world who will think one of them is dumb, however that is society and what keeps a society governed.

"There’s Something You Need to Know About The Rules"

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/

[RunHappy]

In life we don't get to pick and choose the rules we want to follow.

I'm going to disagree on this one.  We all have a choice.  You don't like paying taxes then don't work and be prepared for the consequences.  You don't like the laws of the country you live in try and change them or move to another country.  What about criminals they choose not follow the rules and some know full well what those consequences are and continue to do so (not really a socially good example but that's not what we are discussing)?

This is coming from the point of view of a first generation immigrant that had parents that did not want us to grow up in a third world country so they worked hard, got a work resident program in the US, left us for about two years to earn enough money to bring us over, and then worked multiple jobs so that we could focus on school and earn scholarships to college.

I have worked in places where the culture and policies changed it was my choice to stay or go, most of the time I left.  The times I did stay I weighted the consequences of leaving and decided to suck it up until is was comfortable leaving.

I never subscribed to the philosophy of needing to put kids through things like public school just so they learn to deal with it because that's how life will be like when they grow up.  I would much rather teach them that they have options but they have to know the consequences when they choose those options.

I should have qualified that line, but I didn't think it needed it.  Yes that is true we can choose to not follow which every rule we want as long as we are prepared to pay the consequences (Unibomber, Charles Manson, etc proved that).   

My problem is once you start telling the little ones they don't have to follow the dumb rules (laws), where does it stop?   I have a big issue with people who think the rules (laws) don't apply to them because they are special.  I see it all the time when I fly (just one example out of a lifetime).  Most rules(laws)  are probably created arbitrarily (haven't researched it) and there is always going to be someone out there in the world who will think one of them is dumb, however that is society and what keeps a society governed.

"There’s Something You Need to Know About The Rules"

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/

LOL! Touche'!

[zoltani]

Ah yes, He has spoken, and so it shall be!