Author Topic: MMM and Home Schooling  (Read 101026 times)

Scandium

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #250 on: February 06, 2015, 01:48:47 PM »
Can someone explain to me why creationists think of the personal opinions of famous scientists as some sort of "weapon" against their evidence-backed scientific discoveries?

My sFIL tried to prove evolution false by saying that Darwin denounced his theory at the end of his life. 

Well, he sort of did, but only because his highly religious wife had become estranged from him and his work had torn their family apart.  He felt bad, and he was old, and dying.  Sorry, but I don't give a shit that he felt about about his wife, it has zero impact on his scientific work.

What on earth do a scientist's personal religious beliefs or non-beliefs have to do with their research?  Especially considering the fact that a lot of the guys you quoted lived in a time period when denying the existence of God was a good way to get yourself killed or lose funding, AND the fact that several of them were deists, I really don't see what relevance those quotes have.

Easy enough; religion is based on statements from authority figures (one of them being the "ultimate" authority). That is the only thing it's based on actually, since there is no "evidence". Therefore this is the most important thing in religious thinking. They believe this also applies to science, so someone's opinion for or against a matter of science is considered the most important. If that person is a well-regarded authority figure; well that settles that question!

If only Newton would have disavowed gravity on his death bed, we could all be flying right now!

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #251 on: February 06, 2015, 02:15:39 PM »
I hope this helps to answer your question!

Microevolution is the occurrence of small inherited changes in a population.  The classic example is Darwin’s finches, which show variations in size and shape over successive generations depending on the nature of their food supply.  Many other similar examples could be readily cited, like the breeding of dogs or types of wheat.  In Darwin’s day, the true nature of genes and heredity wasn’t known, so it was easy for him to suppose that little inherited changes could add up to big ones (like reptile to bird).  However, the discovery of genes and how they work has shown that this is not so.  Genes can impart great variety by combining in different ways, but genetic change cannot be pushed beyond a certain point.  From generic dogs, we can breed big dogs or little ones, but we can’t turn a dog into an alligator.  The important thing to remember about microevolution is that it always involves recombination or loss of existing genes.  It never creates totally new genes from scratch.  Microevolution makes variations within already existing kinds of creatures, not wholly new kinds.  Creationists have no problem with microevolution.



I am not a biologist (and I apologise to those who are if I get the science wrong here) but I think the notion of "kinds" of animals does not mirror speciation the way biologists understand it.

I also would like to know how exactly it has been shown that "genetic change cannot be pushed beyond a certain point", who showed it and when?

You might not be able to turn a dog into an alligator but if you give it enough time you can go from a mouse-dear like  creature to a blue whale which is every bit as remarkable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans and it just so happens that one of the species along the path of that evolution looks pretty darn similar to a crocodile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remingtonocetidae (same shape but of course entirely different under the hood...the same way marsupials can look very similar to mammals)


Quote
               
 
Macroevolution, on the other hand, would require really big structural (phenotypic) changes in organisms.  Genetically, it would require the creation of massive new arrays of information-packed genes from nothing but molecular gibberish.  For example, the alleged evolution of the first cell calls for emergence of at least 300 highly complex, working genes from nothing but random, simple chemicals like methane and ammonia.  Not even a small sequence of genetic code has ever been produced in this way, let alone 300 complex, interwoven genes working precisely together.  Similarly, the theorized transitions from microbes to invertebrates, fish, reptiles, etc., call for added vast amounts of totally new genetic information at each stage.  No process of genetic creation like this has ever been observed.  Natural selection is powerless to create completely new genes from random chemicals.

http://www.discovercreation.org/newsletters/Macroevolutionvs.Microevolution.htm
     


That Lenski experiment  which I linked to earlier showed a new phenotype evolving in e-coli in a controlled environment over time to enable them to grow on citrate. What is really interesting to me (as a layman) is that only certain populations developed this ability and the ability relies on two other mutations within that population (other populations with the same environment and from the same starting point did not evolve this ability). This is new genetic information coming into being.

(edited to fix tags)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:46:29 PM by Annamal »

caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #252 on: February 06, 2015, 03:18:46 PM »
Can someone explain to me why creationists think of the personal opinions of famous scientists as some sort of "weapon" against their evidence-backed scientific discoveries?

My sFIL tried to prove evolution false by saying that Darwin denounced his theory at the end of his life. 

Well, he sort of did, but only because his highly religious wife had become estranged from him and his work had torn their family apart.  He felt bad, and he was old, and dying.  Sorry, but I don't give a shit that he felt about about his wife, it has zero impact on his scientific work.

What on earth do a scientist's personal religious beliefs or non-beliefs have to do with their research?  Especially considering the fact that a lot of the guys you quoted lived in a time period when denying the existence of God was a good way to get yourself killed or lose funding, AND the fact that several of them were deists, I really don't see what relevance those quotes have.

Easy enough; religion is based on statements from authority figures (one of them being the "ultimate" authority). That is the only thing it's based on actually, since there is no "evidence". Therefore this is the most important thing in religious thinking. They believe this also applies to science, so someone's opinion for or against a matter of science is considered the most important. If that person is a well-regarded authority figure; well that settles that question!

If only Newton would have disavowed gravity on his death bed, we could all be flying right now!

Yeah that was basically my point, I was mostly hoping the resident creationist would have some sort of rationalization for the entirely non-rational behavior.


On the subject of speciation...

Last week I made a non-pathogenic strain of E. coli resistant to ampicillin (an antibiotic). 

Theoretically, I can make an entire organism (nematodes, mice, a great variety of species) glow fluorescent green using a protein naturally found in jellyfish.  I can also make specific cell types or specific portions of cells in a different organism glow fluorescent green by targeting the protein using genes that are only expressed in certain situations.  I haven't actually done anything this cool though, but it has been done by lots of other people. 

I'm not actually that into evolutionary biology specifically, so this might be a little clunky/elementary but here goes:

Speciation arises from changes in the genome that render two populations of animals unable to reproduce with each other. 

Changes in the genome arise from various factors like random mutation, genetic drift, bottleneck events, etc etc.  Not sure on all of them, but regardless, every change in the genome is the result of a change in the DNA coding sequence.  This is really elementary biology -- four nucleotides make up the DNA code: ATCG.  Sometimes things get fucked up and they can substitute for one another, or whole sections of sequence get deleted or flipped around or shifted...

Eventually, if you change enough A's to G's (or whatever, you get the point), you might get a dog from a visually unrelated precursor species.

You don't get a dog from an alligator because the species we see today have evolved from COMMON ANCESTORS.  They have not evolved from each other.

Humans did not evolve from chimpanzees, humans share a common ancestor with chimpanzees.  There's a difference.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #253 on: February 06, 2015, 05:40:03 PM »


When exactly was the bible "written"? Was it during Jesus' life? After?
[/quote]

"It was written over a period of some 1,500 years, from around 1450 B.C. (the time of Moses) to about 100 A.D. (following the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ).

The Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit by over 40 different authors from all walks of life: shepherds, farmers, tent-makers, physicians, fishermen, priests, philosophers and kings. Despite these differences in occupation and the span of years it took to write it, the Bible is an extremely cohesive and unified book."
Quoted from the website below.
http://ministerbook.com/topics/facts-about-bible/

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #254 on: February 06, 2015, 08:35:08 PM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).
[/quote]

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering

caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #255 on: February 06, 2015, 08:37:27 PM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering
[/quote]

Is there a reason you're avoiding answering my science-based posts in favor of proselytizing to people who are clearly making fun of you?

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #256 on: February 06, 2015, 09:20:36 PM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering
[/quote]

I'm not sure that site is terribly convincing to non-christians, it blames tsunamis (and all other forms of so-called "natural evil" including presumably cancer and ebola) on people being kicked out of paradise because of their "human moral shortcomings".

I'm with Stephen Fry, a god who inflicts bone cancer on children is not a god that I could be comfortable following.



BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #257 on: February 06, 2015, 09:35:35 PM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering

Is there a reason you're avoiding answering my science-based posts in favor of proselytizing to people who are clearly making fun of you?
[/quote]
Caliq, I know I am considered by many to be the "resident creationist" for this website, but there are many posts,I think I could use an assistant, and maybe weekends off, and deffinately a paid vacation would be nice?

There are questions I can not answer, there are qposts that are not worth answering, and there are then important questions, like why does God let children suffer?". I relate strongly to questions like that, I had a niece who died before and year old, and while she was dying, our family was praying fervently to God to save her. Because we know God, we know we would all get through that time. If I can help someone else know God, I want to help anyway I can.
You don't have to respect me, you can choose to make fun of me if you are pleased to do so, but I don't live my life based on what others will think of me. It matters to me that I live out my faith before my God and I hope He is pleased,because He is awesome!

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #258 on: February 06, 2015, 09:52:21 PM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering

Is there a reason you're avoiding answering my science-based posts in favor of proselytizing to people who are clearly making fun of you?
Caliq, I know I am considered by many to be the "resident creationist" for this website, but there are many posts,I think I could use an assistant, and maybe weekends off, and deffinately a paid vacation would be nice?

There are questions I can not answer, there are qposts that are not worth answering, and there are then important questions, like why does God let children suffer?". I relate strongly to questions like that, I had a niece who died before and year old, and while she was dying, our family was praying fervently to God to save her. Because we know God, we know we would all get through that time. If I can help someone else know God, I want to help anyway I can.
You don't have to respect me, you can choose to make fun of me if you are pleased to do so, but I don't live my life based on what others will think of me. It matters to me that I live out my faith before my God and I hope He is pleased,because He is awesome!
[/quote]
Caliq, I just read your post in a different light. Were you really asking me to answer your science question? If you are the one with glowing mice, I can't. But, I can try to find someone who could answer it. It may take several days, but if it is important to you, I will surely try to get an answer for you. Let me know. I think I misjudged your post, please forgive me.

LennStar

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #259 on: February 07, 2015, 03:32:22 AM »
So, I ask you to look at your thumb, your eye, your heart, your foot. If you ever saw anything close to these and as complex as they are in any other realm, other than creation, would you conclude that it randomly evolved by chance. You're thinking people, work through this in your mind. Is it really conceivable that this planet, this universe,  just happened?
I look at my thumb and see that I can do (completely useless) things most people cant do.
I look at my eyes (figurativly) and see that they see worse in 3 ways then most of other people.
I look at my heart and dont know much about it, but I know that my liver has an illness commonly the result of alcohol abuse, even if i dont drink any in my whole life.
If I look at my feet I see that only an operation early in my life allows me to walk.

Conclusion: God is either a sadist, a very bad designer or non-existent.

Also you make a basic error in your (nothing proving anyway) quotes: You take only believers. Or a book that was written by dozens of authors in a language you wouldnt be able to understand even if you learnt all words. And from which parts were thrown away when they didnt fit the churchs wishes. And which ist still highly contradictional in itself.

Quote
but many equally unqualified won't admit that and think they can.
By the way, those who are most unfit in something think they are the best in it (on average of course as always in statistics) = if you are bad in something you are also bad in judging if someone is good or bad in it.
Explains a lot of management, if you ask me.

caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #260 on: February 07, 2015, 07:02:40 AM »

obviously how we got here is the magical will of a being that nobody can prove exists and is magnificent and benevolent, even while letting kids die and suffer (I'm sure there's a very good unprovable reason for that too).

UnLeashedHell, you ask very important questions here. That need answers.

Nothing, I think is more gut wrenchingly painful than seeing a child suffer and even die. So, why doesn't an all powerful God, fix this, so it doesn't happen? After all, if He can speak the universe into existence,breath the breath of life into man, He should be able to save a child from suffering.

Take a look at this article.

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/becoming-a-christian/is-christ-the-only-way/how-can-god-allow-so-much-evil-and-suffering

Is there a reason you're avoiding answering my science-based posts in favor of proselytizing to people who are clearly making fun of you?
Caliq, I know I am considered by many to be the "resident creationist" for this website, but there are many posts,I think I could use an assistant, and maybe weekends off, and deffinately a paid vacation would be nice?

There are questions I can not answer, there are qposts that are not worth answering, and there are then important questions, like why does God let children suffer?". I relate strongly to questions like that, I had a niece who died before and year old, and while she was dying, our family was praying fervently to God to save her. Because we know God, we know we would all get through that time. If I can help someone else know God, I want to help anyway I can.
You don't have to respect me, you can choose to make fun of me if you are pleased to do so, but I don't live my life based on what others will think of me. It matters to me that I live out my faith before my God and I hope He is pleased,because He is awesome!
Caliq, I just read your post in a different light. Were you really asking me to answer your science question? If you are the one with glowing mice, I can't. But, I can try to find someone who could answer it. It may take several days, but if it is important to you, I will surely try to get an answer for you. Let me know. I think I misjudged your post, please forgive me.
[/quote]

There were two questions I asked you:

1.  Why do you attempt to use the personal religious beliefs of scientists when discussing their work, even though religion/philosophy was not their area of expertise and their beliefs have no impact on their discoveries? 

2.  How do you fit the genetics of speciation (which I explained in a very elementary way -- please especially focus on the common ancestor bit) and transgenics (what I described with the mice) into your creationist philosophy? 

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #261 on: February 07, 2015, 07:32:30 AM »
So, I ask you to look at your thumb, your eye, your heart, your foot. If you ever saw anything close to these and as complex as they are in any other realm, other than creation, would you conclude that it randomly evolved by chance. You're thinking people, work through this in your mind. Is it really conceivable that this planet, this universe,  just happened?
I look at my thumb and see that I can do (completely useless) things most people cant do.
I look at my eyes (figurativly) and see that they see worse in 3 ways then most of other people.
I look at my heart and dont know much about it, but I know that my liver has an illness commonly the result of alcohol abuse, even if i dont drink any in my whole life.
If I look at my feet I see that only an operation early in my life allows me to walk.

Conclusion: God is either a sadist, a very bad designer or non-existent.

Also you make a basic error in your (nothing proving anyway) quotes: You take only believers. Or a book that was written by dozens of authors in a language you wouldnt be able to understand even if you learnt all words. And from which parts were thrown away when they didnt fit the churchs wishes. And which ist still highly contradictional in itself.

Quote
but many equally unqualified won't admit that and think they can.
By the way, those who are most unfit in something think they are the best in it (on average of course as always in statistics) = if you are bad in something you are also bad in judging if someone is good or bad in it.
Explains a lot of management, if you ask me.


"Conclusion: God is either a sadist, a very bad designer or non-existent."



LennStar, as far as you can see, right now, these are the conclusions that you draw from your experience in life.I do understand these conclusions.

But to get the big picture,and we all need a big picture of how we fit in this world, we are going to have to bring the Bible into the discussion.

The Bible seems to be relatively unknown and dismissed in our day. It records the history of Creation, the Fall of mankind, the introduction of sin and  death into the world, God's promise of a Redeemer, the prophesies of that Redeemer, the arrival of the Redeemer, the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer,the ascension of the Redeemer to Heaven, and the return of the Redeemer in Glory.

The Bible has a very different agenda than the one we all  embrace from our birth.

Ok, so for our discussion we are going to have to assume the Truth of the Bible, and use examples from it as if they were God's Word. If you want to do some research on the Bible on your own, here is a good place to start: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html,

First, Christians are Trinitarian, which means that we bellevue in One God in Three Persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Is this mind blowing? It is to me. I remember, I once tried to explain the Trinity to children using an egg as an example, "It is one egg in three parts, the shell, the yolk, and the white. A pastor friend was horrified by that example, so I do not think I can explain it/

There are many things I know of God from His Word that I can't explain, but God is not able to be put in a box by His creatures. His ways are far above ours. He is God.

In the
beginning God created the Universe. He spoke the world into existence. He formed man and animal out of the dust of the ground, and breathed life into man. Woman God made from man. They were perfect. Creation was perfect.

God gave the man, Adam, rulership over all creation.Man was given free will to obey or disobey God.


Next, I will let the Bible speak for itself here: Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2:15.

Adam and Eve chose to forfeit the Garden of Eden, the perfect fellowship with God and creation, for themselves and for all mankind. Sin, death, disease, estrangement from God entered into the world.

Adam and Eve chose against the blessings of God for themselves, and for all mankind for the false promise of being like God themselves.

If that were the end state for man, we probably would not be having this discussion, because mankind could not have survived without God's redemptive Hand. But, God did intervene.

For now, I have to stop, but I will pick up here later.

Please remember community, LennStar, directed this dilemma to me. I can only answer it from my understanding. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God.I can only present it to you as I believe it, you must do what you choose with it.

Next, The Promise of the Redeemer

I just saw a new post. I will not be able to address any new posts until my answer to LennStar is complete. Since that answer will span the whole Bible, it may answer some of the questions.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #262 on: February 07, 2015, 07:42:52 AM »
Caliq, I did not know you were the new poster. I will answer you before I get back to LennStar. But, it will be later sometime.

LennStar

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #263 on: February 07, 2015, 10:17:37 AM »

But to get the big picture,and we all need a big picture of how we fit in this world, we are going to have to bring the Bible into the discussion.

No, we do not have to. Leave that old paper out.
Use science, not believe that something that someone has written down long ago and your understanding of it is THE TRUTH - or as you put it "we are going to have to assume the Truth of the Bible"

We dont have to. Quite contrary, if you start with "we have to assume the truth of" we dont need to continue. You cant start with the conclusion.
Forget everything you have from the bible and from people who have their basis in the bible. Then use your brain.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #264 on: February 07, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
So, I ask you to look at your thumb, your eye, your heart, your foot. If you ever saw anything close to these and as complex as they are in any other realm, other than creation, would you conclude that it randomly evolved by chance. You're thinking people, work through this in your mind. Is it really conceivable that this planet, this universe,  just happened?
I look at my thumb and see that I can do (completely useless) things most people cant do.
I look at my eyes (figurativly) and see that they see worse in 3 ways then most of other people.
I look at my heart and dont know much about it, but I know that my liver has an illness commonly the result of alcohol abuse, even if i dont drink any in my whole life.
If I look at my feet I see that only an operation early in my life allows me to walk.

Conclusion: God is either a sadist, a very bad designer or non-existent.

Also you make a basic error in your (nothing proving anyway) quotes: You take only believers. Or a book that was written by dozens of authors in a language you wouldnt be able to understand even if you learnt all words. And from which parts were thrown away when they didnt fit the churchs wishes. And which ist still highly contradictional in itself.

Quote
but many equally unqualified won't admit that and think they can.
By the way, those who are most unfit in something think they are the best in it (on average of course as always in statistics) = if you are bad in something you are also bad in judging if someone is good or bad in it.
Explains a lot of management, if you ask me.


"Conclusion: God is either a sadist, a very bad designer or non-existent."



LennStar, as far as you can see, right now, these are the conclusions that you draw from your experience in life.I do understand these conclusions.

But to get the big picture,and we all need a big picture of how we fit in this world, we are going to have to bring the Bible into the discussion.

The Bible seems to be relatively unknown and dismissed in our day. It records the history of Creation, the Fall of mankind, the introduction of sin and  death into the world, God's promise of a Redeemer, the prophesies of that Redeemer, the arrival of the Redeemer, the death, burial, and resurrection of the Redeemer,the ascension of the Redeemer to Heaven, and the return of the Redeemer in Glory.

The Bible has a very different agenda than the one we all  embrace from our birth.

Ok, so for our discussion we are going to have to assume the Truth of the Bible, and use examples from it as if they were God's Word. If you want to do some research on the Bible on your own, here is a good place to start: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html,

First, Christians are Trinitarian, which means that we bellevue in One God in Three Persons, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Is this mind blowing? It is to me. I remember, I once tried to explain the Trinity to children using an egg as an example, "It is one egg in three parts, the shell, the yolk, and the white. A pastor friend was horrified by that example, so I do not think I can explain it/

There are many things I know of God from His Word that I can't explain, but God is not able to be put in a box by His creatures. His ways are far above ours. He is God.

In the
beginning God created the Universe. He spoke the world into existence. He formed man and animal out of the dust of the ground, and breathed life into man. Woman God made from man. They were perfect. Creation was perfect.

God gave the man, Adam, rulership over all creation.Man was given free will to obey or disobey God.


Next, I will let the Bible speak for itself here: Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Genesis 2:15.

Adam and Eve chose to forfeit the Garden of Eden, the perfect fellowship with God and creation, for themselves and for all mankind. Sin, death, disease, estrangement from God entered into the world.

Adam and Eve chose against the blessings of God for themselves, and for all mankind for the false promise of being like God themselves.

If that were the end state for man, we probably would not be having this discussion, because mankind could not have survived without God's redemptive Hand. But, God did intervene.

For now, I have to stop, but I will pick up here later.

Please remember community, LennStar, directed this dilemma to me. I can only answer it from my understanding. I believe the Bible to be the Word of God.I can only present it to you as I believe it, you must do what you choose with it.

Next, The Promise of the Redeemer

I just saw a new post. I will not be able to address any new posts until my answer to LennStar is complete. Since that answer will span the whole Bible, it may answer some of the questions.

So again, you are suggesting that children whose only sin is being born, die in agony because their long distant ancestors disobeyed the god who supposedly laid down the whole "don't visit the sins of the father on the son" rule?

If we take every word of the bible as truth then your god is a sadist and not particularly consistent.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #265 on: February 07, 2015, 01:39:55 PM »
1. " Why do you attempt to use the personal religious beliefs of scientists when discussing their work, even though religion/philosophy was not their area of expertise and their beliefs have no impact on their discoveries? " Caliq

Answer:
Because contrary to your belief that science and faith are mutually exclusive, scientists themselves don't agree with you. I tried to show you and others on this forum that. Please feel free to disregard their words if you choose, but you can not erase them from history.

Also, it does seem to me that on this forum many assume if you are a Christians then you are stupid. It seems logical to me to try to refute that with presenting to you highly intelligent Christians.

Here are more quotes from Nobel Prize winning scientists who if not Christians themselves, at least see in the study of the universe the order and beauty attributed to a creator. You can choose to ignore the evidence of their own words, but then you might be missing out on an important observation they make.

"If we count the galaxies of the universe or demonstrate the existence of elementary particles, in an analog way we can't probably have proof of the existence of God. But as a researcher, I am deeply moved by the order and beauty I find in the cosmos and the interior of material things. As an observer of nature, I can't help thinking there is a higher order. The idea that all this is the result of fortune or pure statistic diversity for me is completely unacceptable." - Carlo Rubbia Nobel Prize in Physics

¨ “Christianity offers men the very highest of moralities. …It presents to them a God who can be adored because He is within our reach and Whom we ought to love.” (Carrel 1952, Chap. 9, Part 4).  “I want to be like smoke in the wind at God’s disposal.” (Carrel, as cited in Newton 1989).  -Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology
 “God is Truth. There is no incompatibility between science and religion. Both are seeking the same truth. Science shows that God exists.” (Barton, as cited in Margenau and Varghese 1997, 144).
2. ¨ “The observations and experiments of science are so wonderful that the truth that they establish can surely be accepted as another manifestation of God. God shows himself by allowing man to establish truth.” (Barton, as cited in Margenau and Varghese 1997, 145). -Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry

“I believe in God. In fact, I believe in a personal God who acts in and interacts with the creation. I believe that the observations about the orderliness of the physical universe, and the apparently exceptional fine-tuning of the conditions of the universe for the development of life suggest that an intelligent Creator is responsible. …I believe in God because of a personal faith, a faith that is consistent with what I know about science.” (Phillips 2002b).William Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics

There are many, many more I could quote.

Also, I will get back to you on your science question.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #266 on: February 07, 2015, 01:52:26 PM »

Because contrary to your belief that science and faith are mutually exclusive, scientists themselves don't agree with you. I tried to show you and others on this forum that. Please feel free to disregard their words if you choose, but you can not erase them from history.


Caliq is not arguing that science and faith (where faith = faith in a generic creator) are mutually exclusive, they are arguing that biblical literalism (the idea that every word of the bible is true) is incompatible with the observations of scientists.


caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #267 on: February 07, 2015, 02:03:47 PM »
1. " Why do you attempt to use the personal religious beliefs of scientists when discussing their work, even though religion/philosophy was not their area of expertise and their beliefs have no impact on their discoveries? " Caliq

Answer:
Because contrary to your belief that science and faith are mutually exclusive, scientists themselves don't agree with you. I tried to show you and others on this forum that. Please feel free to disregard their words if you choose, but you can not erase them from history.

Also, it does seem to me that on this forum many assume if you are a Christians then you are stupid. It seems logical to me to try to refute that with presenting to you highly intelligent Christians.

Here are more quotes from Nobel Prize winning scientists who if not Christians themselves, at least see in the study of the universe the order and beauty attributed to a creator. You can choose to ignore the evidence of their own words, but then you might be missing out on an important observation they make.

"If we count the galaxies of the universe or demonstrate the existence of elementary particles, in an analog way we can't probably have proof of the existence of God. But as a researcher, I am deeply moved by the order and beauty I find in the cosmos and the interior of material things. As an observer of nature, I can't help thinking there is a higher order. The idea that all this is the result of fortune or pure statistic diversity for me is completely unacceptable." - Carlo Rubbia Nobel Prize in Physics

¨ “Christianity offers men the very highest of moralities. …It presents to them a God who can be adored because He is within our reach and Whom we ought to love.” (Carrel 1952, Chap. 9, Part 4).  “I want to be like smoke in the wind at God’s disposal.” (Carrel, as cited in Newton 1989).  -Alexis Carrel Nobel Laureate in Medicine and Physiology
 “God is Truth. There is no incompatibility between science and religion. Both are seeking the same truth. Science shows that God exists.” (Barton, as cited in Margenau and Varghese 1997, 144).
2. ¨ “The observations and experiments of science are so wonderful that the truth that they establish can surely be accepted as another manifestation of God. God shows himself by allowing man to establish truth.” (Barton, as cited in Margenau and Varghese 1997, 145). -Derek Barton Nobel Laureate in Chemistry

“I believe in God. In fact, I believe in a personal God who acts in and interacts with the creation. I believe that the observations about the orderliness of the physical universe, and the apparently exceptional fine-tuning of the conditions of the universe for the development of life suggest that an intelligent Creator is responsible. …I believe in God because of a personal faith, a faith that is consistent with what I know about science.” (Phillips 2002b).William Phillips Nobel Laureate in Physics

There are many, many more I could quote.

Also, I will get back to you on your science question.

I did not say that science and faith are mutually exclusive; you can be a scientist and have faith.  I did say that having faith while conducting proper science has no bearing on the outcome of the science.  This is unequivocally true, because to conduct proper science you must eliminate personal biases from interfering with your work; therefore proper scientists will not allow their faith-based biases to impact their scientific discoveries in any way.  The science stands alone, not requiring the faith to support or inform it.  If the scientist or others choose to combine the science with faith, that is their prerogative, but it is not necessary.  Science is necessary and sufficient to understand the universe; faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. 

I don't think Christians are stupid, I think creationists are stupid.  There is a way to integrate faith in a higher power into modern scientific knowledge, and that way is deism.  The scientists you are quoting are not hard-line Bible creationism literalists like you seem to think they are; they are deists in the broad sense of the word, even if they did not categorize themselves as such.  Except perhaps that last guy who said he believes God interacts with his creation, because that belief is opposite of the central tenet of deism. 

I asked you a question about your own reasoning for doing something, and your response was essentially verbal diarrhea of excessive quotes.  This is the problem I have with debating creationists.  I am asking you to formulate and defend your own opinion/position, and you seem to be literally incapable of doing so. 

Science educates individuals to be critical thinkers, capable of researching background information, distilling that information into a position, and defending that position.  Religion teaches individuals to blindly follow the words and opinions of authority figures, and to defend the position of the authority figure by parroting arguments made in the past.  This is the central point I'm trying to make to you and anyone else who might be reading.

Personally, I would much rather go through life with the ability to generate my own opinion on whatever topic is at hand and then also be able to coherently defend my position using my own words and reasoning. 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 02:05:50 PM by caliq »

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #268 on: February 07, 2015, 02:05:27 PM »
Though the later part of this thread does show why many people are incapable of home schooling, lol.   

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #269 on: February 07, 2015, 03:07:04 PM »
Caliq,Let's take a look at a few of your comments.

"Science is necessary and sufficient to understand the universe; faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "


If science is sufficient to understand the universe please answer these questions that people have regarding the universe using science science:


1. Is there life after death?

2. Why is there evil in the world?

3. Is there evil in the world? What defines evil?

4.Why do we think that individuals have rights?

5.Does God exist?

6.Are humans morally responsible for the things they think, do, intend, etc.?

7. What is good?

"faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "  _Caliq. 

Faith can answer the above questions sufficiently.

" There is a way to integrate faith in a higher power into modern scientific knowledge, and that way is deism. "

 Please explain this. Where does Deism get the pass? Deism is a faith, a belie., So you put your approval on deism as an acceptable faith? And you think I too have to accept this? And isn't this contradictory to this statement of yours?"Science is necessary and sufficient to understand the universe; faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "

I have more to discuss with you from your post. But if you could answer these it would be a good beginning.


netskyblue

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #270 on: February 07, 2015, 04:21:45 PM »
I don't know where people get the idea that public school in and of itself = exposure to diversity.

My public school had 2 "non white" children (one South Korean, one Indian), both were adoptees into white families (so, culturally, they were raised "white").
Everyone in my public school was Christian.  Primarily Methodist or Baptist, though there were 2 Catholic families, a small handful of Episcopalians, and at least 1 Presbyterian family.

It doesn't get much more homogenous than that.  My school system spanned 4 counties. 

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #271 on: February 07, 2015, 04:54:48 PM »
I don't know where people get the idea that public school in and of itself = exposure to diversity.

My public school had 2 "non white" children (one South Korean, one Indian), both were adoptees into white families (so, culturally, they were raised "white").
Everyone in my public school was Christian.  Primarily Methodist or Baptist, though there were 2 Catholic families, a small handful of Episcopalians, and at least 1 Presbyterian family.

It doesn't get much more homogenous than that.  My school system spanned 4 counties.
I don't think anyone is saying exposure to diversity, I think people are saying a public school is more diverse than a set of parents who try to keep their kids only with those the parents think are like them.  For example, not on religious or race lines but my school exposed me to more conservative values than my mother or anyone else my mother had me around.

Zikoris

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #272 on: February 07, 2015, 06:13:23 PM »
Quote
Faith can answer the above questions sufficiently.

Well sure, by making up answers without evidence - but that's kind of an intellectually dishonest cop-out. Anyone can do that.

"Well, we have no evidence for what causes this type of cancer, so let's just say it's due to fairies until we have solid evidence proving otherwise! After all, there's no proof that fairies DON'T exist, right?" Can you imagine the response if a scientist said that? Would he have a shred of credibility after that?

caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #273 on: February 07, 2015, 06:34:23 PM »
Caliq,Let's take a look at a few of your comments.

"Science is necessary and sufficient to understand the universe; faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "


If science is sufficient to understand the universe please answer these questions that people have regarding the universe using science science:


1. Is there life after death?

2. Why is there evil in the world?

3. Is there evil in the world? What defines evil?

4.Why do we think that individuals have rights?

5.Does God exist?

6.Are humans morally responsible for the things they think, do, intend, etc.?

7. What is good?

"faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "  _Caliq. 

Faith can answer the above questions sufficiently.

" There is a way to integrate faith in a higher power into modern scientific knowledge, and that way is deism. "

 Please explain this. Where does Deism get the pass? Deism is a faith, a belie., So you put your approval on deism as an acceptable faith? And you think I too have to accept this? And isn't this contradictory to this statement of yours?"Science is necessary and sufficient to understand the universe; faith is neither necessary nor sufficient. "

I have more to discuss with you from your post. But if you could answer these it would be a good beginning.

Deism fits with science because the higher power does not intervene in the creation, and has not since the inception of the universe.  I suppose there are other faiths that follow similar ideas; I am less familiar with them and so I neglected to mention them.  The christian god, as interpreted by you and others, is not that type of higher power. 

Necessary and sufficient is a technical concept; saying something is neither necessary nor sufficient doesn't mean it has no value -- it means it is optional, or extra.  So, most rational religion fits with science but it's optional; you don't need it but you can have it if you like.

I'm not going to answer your list of questions because they're subjective philosophical things, and we will never reach a consensus on them.  That's not what I'm trying to discuss.  I can answer each of those questions without religion, but clearly you can't.  That's fine, but you should realize that not everyone requires religion.  However, you cannot understand the specifics of how the universe works without science.  That is why science is necessary and sufficient, but religion is not.

marty998

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #274 on: February 07, 2015, 07:07:29 PM »
I'll have a go. And I'm catholic lol.


1. Is there life after death?
No. Quite obviously. Otherwise you would not be dead.

2. Why is there evil in the world?
Not a question that can be proven by science, though there's a few neurologists who think they are close. Whether we like it or not, one man's evil is another man's good. History's most "evil" people have a knack for genuinely believing that they are on the side of good and right.

3. Is there evil in the world? What defines evil?
There is choice. Choice can have positive, negative or positive & negative consequences for oneself and others. Again...one man's evil is another man's good (I am not discussing or defending anyones particular actions here, please do not think I am tripping over Godwin's Law :P )

4.Why do we think that individuals have rights?
Humanity and its evolutionary ancestors have had it's own set of cultural norms and practices long before religion was invented.

5.Does God exist?
God has not been proven to exist.

6.Are humans morally responsible for the things they think, do, intend, etc.?
Absolutely. You're not seriously suggesting that we have no control over our own actions? That we should not punish the murderers, rapists and child molesters? If you hear a voice inside your head telling you to kill your kid do you listen to it and do it? I would have a lot more respect for Abraham if, assuming he did hear God, he told God to shove it and did what a good father should do and protect and keep his kid safe.

I appreciate the meaning behind that story, that God put Abraham's faith to the ultimate test, but geez thats the sort of situation you see a deranged psycho arrange in a Tarantino type horror movie. So God is good in that situation but the deranged psycho is not? Or is God good just because he said stop! right at the very end, notwithstanding all that happened before. Sounds like an "ends justifies the means" position, which is not imo "good".


7. What is good?
Don't know about you but when I see good, I smile. A very non-scientific airy fairy answer, but hey, the question and the ones before were very non scientific airy-fairy.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 07:11:27 PM by marty998 »

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #275 on: February 07, 2015, 07:23:50 PM »
I'll have a go. And I'm catholic lol.


1. Is there life after death?
No. Quite obviously. Otherwise you would not be dead.

2. Why is there evil in the world?
Not a question that can be proven by science, though there's a few neurologists who think they are close. Whether we like it or not, one man's evil is another man's good. History's most "evil" people have a knack for genuinely believing that they are on the side of good and right.

3. Is there evil in the world? What defines evil?
There is choice. Choice can have positive, negative or positive & negative consequences for oneself and others. Again...one man's evil is another man's good (I am not discussing or defending anyones particular actions here, please do not think I am tripping over Godwin's Law :P )

4.Why do we think that individuals have rights?
Humanity and its evolutionary ancestors have had it's own set of cultural norms and practices long before religion was invented.

5.Does God exist?
God has not been proven to exist.

6.Are humans morally responsible for the things they think, do, intend, etc.?
Absolutely. You're not seriously suggesting that we have no control over our own actions? That we should not punish the murderers, rapists and child molesters? If you hear a voice inside your head telling you to kill your kid do you listen to it and do it? I would have a lot more respect for Abraham if, assuming he did hear God, he told God to shove it and did what a good father should do and protect and keep his kid safe.

I appreciate the meaning behind that story, that God put Abraham's faith to the ultimate test, but geez thats the sort of situation you see a deranged psycho arrange in a Tarantino type horror movie. So God is good in that situation but the deranged psycho is not? Or is God good just because he said stop! right at the very end, notwithstanding all that happened before. Sounds like an "ends justifies the means" position, which is not imo "good".


7. What is good?
Don't know about you but when I see good, I smile. A very non-scientific airy fairy answer, but hey, the question and the ones before were very non scientific airy-fairy.

Kind of off topic, but did anyone ever wonder how Issac felt after Abraham almost killed him?  I mean how can you trust your parent after that.  "The voice told me to kill you, so I was gonna", WTF?

marty998

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #276 on: February 07, 2015, 07:32:13 PM »
Probably went a bit too far there with #6. Sorry if I offended sensibilities.

If I could make a constructive contribution to the thread, I agree with many posters above who have said that it is unlikely parents can teach to a good standard all the way to final school years.

Teachers have their place, and school is there for a reason. Yes there are exceptions, and yes some homeschooled kids  do very well, I don't doubt that. But imo, if various education departments worldwide see fit to have specialised highly qualified and trained teachers for each subject, then it smacks of arrogance to think that 2 parents, no matter how brilliant they are, can do better.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #277 on: February 07, 2015, 07:37:29 PM »
I'll have a go. And I'm catholic lol.


1. Is there life after death?
No. Quite obviously. Otherwise you would not be dead.

2. Why is there evil in the world?
Not a question that can be proven by science, though there's a few neurologists who think they are close. Whether we like it or not, one man's evil is another man's good. History's most "evil" people have a knack for genuinely believing that they are on the side of good and right.

3. Is there evil in the world? What defines evil?
There is choice. Choice can have positive, negative or positive & negative consequences for oneself and others. Again...one man's evil is another man's good (I am not discussing or defending anyones particular actions here, please do not think I am tripping over Godwin's Law :P )

4.Why do we think that individuals have rights?
Humanity and its evolutionary ancestors have had it's own set of cultural norms and practices long before religion was invented.

5.Does God exist?
God has not been proven to exist.

6.Are humans morally responsible for the things they think, do, intend, etc.?
Absolutely. You're not seriously suggesting that we have no control over our own actions? That we should not punish the murderers, rapists and child molesters? If you hear a voice inside your head telling you to kill your kid do you listen to it and do it? I would have a lot more respect for Abraham if, assuming he did hear God, he told God to shove it and did what a good father should do and protect and keep his kid safe.

I appreciate the meaning behind that story, that God put Abraham's faith to the ultimate test, but geez thats the sort of situation you see a deranged psycho arrange in a Tarantino type horror movie. So God is good in that situation but the deranged psycho is not? Or is God good just because he said stop! right at the very end, notwithstanding all that happened before. Sounds like an "ends justifies the means" position, which is not imo "good".


7. What is good?
Don't know about you but when I see good, I smile. A very non-scientific airy fairy answer, but hey, the question and the ones before were very non scientific airy-fairy.

Kind of off topic, but did anyone ever wonder how Issac felt after Abraham almost killed him?  I mean how can you trust your parent after that.  "The voice told me to kill you, so I was gonna", WTF?

Then there is poor Jephthah's daughter who doesn't even get named but does get sacrificed by her father.

UnleashHell

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #278 on: February 07, 2015, 08:22:26 PM »
omfg. Can we go back to the part where we discuss homeschooling pros/cons/etc and maybe beginninginwisedom can take the biblical lectures to another thread, where those who enjoy beating their heads against brick walls can join her?
OK - to try to get this back on subject - homeschool rocks. but it has be the right combination of kids who want to learn - and parents who want to learn how to teach. you nail that and you are there... although generally speaking 50% of each will still beat the public education service (aka kiddie prison)

iwasjustwondering

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #279 on: February 08, 2015, 02:11:29 PM »


I'm also a fellow European. I agree that you are in no way qualified to teach children anything just based on your post.

But despite that, you still think I should be allowed to be my child's only source of education?
I believe you should have the right to use a lot of the resources and methods already covered in this thread to educate your children if you believe that it will be better that the public school that's available to you. If its not better then you should leave them in school. Given that your comments indicate that theres no way homeschooling can be successful then I suggest you leave them in school and let those parents who put a bit more effort into researching the homeschooling options be allowed to carry on doing what works for them.

That's not the point though. Anyone can homeschool. You say I shouldn't, but nothing is stopping me from doing it. And I have the self-awareness to admit I can't teach my child Shakespeare, but many equally unqualified won't admit that and think they can.

You keep assuming these parents will seek out resources, educate themselves etc, but that is not guarantied. People keep saying there are tons of resources, but so what if parent's don't use them? We'll end up with a pile of people even more undereducated than we're already struggling with.

Even in the best cases the education will be filtered through the parent's preferences, rather than a education standards developed by a huge group of scientist do determine what's the essential things a function member of society should know.

I don't have a problem of people opting out of society in principle, it's only a problem since we'll all suffer for it in the end. And in this case there are also the problem of brainwashing/denying knowledge to innocent children who deserve better.

The fact that any lunatic can deny their children basic knowledge is individualism taken to an crazy extreme (And I'm borderline libertarian on most issues!)

+1.  In my experience, the most intelligent people are the ones who recognize limits to their own knowledge.  The people who don't need to learn anything from anybody are usually not so bright.

Worsted Skeins

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #280 on: February 08, 2015, 02:36:55 PM »
omfg. Can we go back to the part where we discuss homeschooling pros/cons/etc and maybe beginninginwisedom can take the biblical lectures to another thread, where those who enjoy beating their heads against brick walls can join her?

+1

It has been an unfortunate derailment of the original thread topic.

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #281 on: February 08, 2015, 02:49:29 PM »
omfg. Can we go back to the part where we discuss homeschooling pros/cons/etc and maybe beginninginwisedom can take the biblical lectures to another thread, where those who enjoy beating their heads against brick walls can join her?

+1

It has been an unfortunate derailment of the original thread topic.
I don't know, it seemed to me a perfect example of how home schooling can go terribly wrong.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #282 on: February 08, 2015, 04:37:39 PM »
omfg. Can we go back to the part where we discuss homeschooling pros/cons/etc and maybe beginninginwisedom can take the biblical lectures to another thread, where those who enjoy beating their heads against brick walls can join her?

+1

It has been an unfortunate derailment of the original thread topic.
I don't know, it seemed to me a perfect example of how home schooling can go terribly wrong.

You could look at it another way, rather than derailing one single subject, it became an education as questions were asked.
If you don't know something, do you want to learn about it? That is what makes homeschooling great. You don't just go to science class and learn that set material, but as questions come up you can seek out the answers. If the parent doesn't know themselves, they can find someone who does.
I also think a book that has influence the world for thousands of years, the Bible, should not be so unknown to a whole generation. We may have different views but to treat people as rudely , and as unkindly as you have does not speak well for public education. I am very, very, very grateful that I could home school our children. And we did it for very little money too!
 

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #283 on: February 08, 2015, 04:52:27 PM »
I did not mean to direct my last post at the person I quoted in the post. It was to this forum in general. There were many of you who could use a class in common decency and the ability to hear another view point then the one you were taught.

Cassie

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #284 on: February 08, 2015, 05:01:34 PM »
I think that people that have teaching degrees should be allowed to homeschool the grades they are qualified to teach. Others not so much. Most of the founding fathers believed in Deism " God was the great clock winder so to speak so he wound the world up & let if go without ever interfering".  I always thought that was an interesting idea.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #285 on: February 08, 2015, 05:03:51 PM »
I did not mean to direct my last post at the person I quoted in the post. It was to this forum in general. There were many of you who could use a class in common decency and the ability to hear another view point then the one you were taught.

Would you mind explaining which view points you have listened to on this thread and what you took away from them?


BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #286 on: February 08, 2015, 05:31:49 PM »
I did not mean to direct my last post at the person I quoted in the post. It was to this forum in general. There were many of you who could use a class in common decency and the ability to hear another view point then the one you were taught.

Would you mind explaining which view points you have listened to on this thread and what you took away from them?

Honestly, you go through the posts, there is very little substance. I asked, I think on page 4 for the evidence that shows how man went from "soup" to being man, as evolution claims. I asked to please show me the evidence in the fossil record, but no one has produced it. Caliq, tried to teach me this:"Religion teaches individuals to blindly follow the words and opinions of authority figures, and to defend the position of the authority figure by parroting arguments made in the past.", but she did not back that up with any objective evidence, she simply stated it, and thought I should believe her, along with accepting her view point on Deism as an acceptable religion to science, while at the same time teaching me that religion is neither nessicary or sufficient. LennStar taught me that the Bible was "old paper".You show me some substance in the posts outside of ridicule , opinion, or sarcasm and I will gladly consider the information.

caliq

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #287 on: February 08, 2015, 05:44:17 PM »
I did not mean to direct my last post at the person I quoted in the post. It was to this forum in general. There were many of you who could use a class in common decency and the ability to hear another view point then the one you were taught.

Would you mind explaining which view points you have listened to on this thread and what you took away from them?

Honestly, you go through the posts, there is very little substance. I asked, I think on page 4 for the evidence that shows how man went from "soup" to being man, as evolution claims. I asked to please show me the evidence in the fossil record, but no one has produced it. Caliq, tried to teach me this:"Religion teaches individuals to blindly follow the words and opinions of authority figures, and to defend the position of the authority figure by parroting arguments made in the past.", but she did not back that up with any objective evidence, she simply stated it, and thought I should believe her, along with accepting her view point on Deism as an acceptable religion to science, while at the same time teaching me that religion is neither nessicary or sufficient. LennStar taught me that the Bible was "old paper".You show me some substance in the posts outside of ridicule , opinion, or sarcasm and I will gladly consider the information.

Did you not actually read the entire post I made, where I clearly stated that any religion that doesn't have an actively-intervening higher power would fit with science? 

Your own posts proved my point about scientific critical thinking vs. religious argument parroting.  An argument does not require a quote from some authority figure to have substance.   The fact that you think so again proves my point.

But here you go, since I'm not one to discourage someone from demanding evidence:
http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2013/08/30/critical-thinking-training-makes-kids-smart-and-also-atheist/
http://psr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/08/02/1088868313497266.short

Quote
By definition, religious upbringing and education teaches acceptance of some scriptural authority. Not only on ethical issues, but on matters of fact, such as “Is there a god and what’s her name?”. This is why religious affiliation runs so strongly in families, communities and cultures. There are an awful lot of Hindus in the world, for instance, but geographically and culturally they are sharply delimited. This religion’s success has nothing to do with smart people in India looking over the global options and picking the best one. It is due to everybody in that area, smart or stupid, being indoctrinated in the readily available and culturally accepted default faith. Religious people often attend religious schools and universities.

Non-religious upbringing and education, on the other hand, tends to be equally big on the ethics but more critical and open on factual issues. My kids, for instance, often get the reply “Can you guess?” when they ask their dad questions. This, I believe, gives a child’s intelligence a big push. The fact that this correlates with atheism is simply an epiphenomenon. If taught critical thinking, kids become more intelligent and also happen to be less open to accepting untestable or empirically false religious beliefs. Critical thinking training makes kids a bit smarter – and also atheist.

Anyways, I'm not sure why I even engaged you in the first place, because you're clearly very set in your craziness.  Yep, that was offensive and I meant it to be.  Sorry, but if someone came on here spouting about how George Bush masterminded the 9/11 attacks, everyone would jump on them and call them crazy.  You need to realize that your hard-line creationism is seen as equally crazy by the vast, vast majority of the educated developed world.  We don't have to hold your hand and pretend like your entirely unfounded opinion is worth anything because...well, because it isn't.

I feel bad for your children.  I hope you at least have the decency to at least send them to proper NON-RELIGIOUS universities where they'll have the rug pulled out from them and maybe, just maybe, end up as normal, rational, functioning members of society.

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #288 on: February 08, 2015, 06:11:40 PM »
"Did you not actually read the entire post I made, where I clearly stated that any religion that doesn't have an actively-intervening higher power would fit with science?"- Caliq 

So, if you state something, I should  believe it? Is this the critical thinking you are referring to? Does your science not require evidence?

Please answer this. I do have more questions from your posts.

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #289 on: February 08, 2015, 06:27:22 PM »
omfg. Can we go back to the part where we discuss homeschooling pros/cons/etc and maybe beginninginwisedom can take the biblical lectures to another thread, where those who enjoy beating their heads against brick walls can join her?

+1

It has been an unfortunate derailment of the original thread topic.
I don't know, it seemed to me a perfect example of how home schooling can go terribly wrong.

You could look at it another way, rather than derailing one single subject, it became an education as questions were asked.
If you don't know something, do you want to learn about it? That is what makes homeschooling great. You don't just go to science class and learn that set material, but as questions come up you can seek out the answers. If the parent doesn't know themselves, they can find someone who does.
I also think a book that has influence the world for thousands of years, the Bible, should not be so unknown to a whole generation. We may have different views but to treat people as rudely , and as unkindly as you have does not speak well for public education. I am very, very, very grateful that I could home school our children. And we did it for very little money too!
I find this comment quite amusing because I went to private Catholic school for all of grammar and high school.  The difference being that my schools were college prep and therefore differentiated between religion and science class, something that you do not seem to be able to do.  And given that to be properly educated you do need to understand that there is a difference and that your religion does not and should not override actual fact, yes your comments were the perfect example of the harm children can receive by being improperly educated by allowing home schooling. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:38:20 PM by Gin1984 »

BeginninginWisedom

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #290 on: February 08, 2015, 06:35:19 PM »
I just had a class in blog etiquette  by my husband, and I do owe apologies.

I am sorry for derailing your blog discussion. My husband explained it is wrong to go off topic. I am sorry for that.

Next, Caliq, I do not know if you are male or female, so I should not have made any reference to gender. I am sorry.


Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #291 on: February 08, 2015, 06:44:56 PM »
I did not mean to direct my last post at the person I quoted in the post. It was to this forum in general. There were many of you who could use a class in common decency and the ability to hear another view point then the one you were taught.

Would you mind explaining which view points you have listened to on this thread and what you took away from them?

Honestly, you go through the posts, there is very little substance. I asked, I think on page 4 for the evidence that shows how man went from "soup" to being man, as evolution claims. I asked to please show me the evidence in the fossil record, but no one has produced it.

My understanding is that "Soup" does not tend to fossilize, however if you are looking for squirrel-like primate to human (branching out into apes and monkeys along the way) over 65 million years there is quite a bit of fossil evidence.

There is also DNA sequencing which does show common ancestry for every living thing which has had its DNA sequenced so far.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor

P.s. You did kind ignore that awesome proto mouse-dear  to blue whale (via weird mammalian crocodile looking thing) path of evolution, do you believe that this happened? There is certainly evidence for it.

okonumiyaki

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #292 on: February 08, 2015, 08:29:31 PM »
The Catholic Church, who are the most intellectually rigorous (Jesuits are smart!) branch of Christianity, have no issues with evolution. 

On homeschooling - I was, for about 18 months, due to remoteness, from age 4-6.  My mother was a high school teacher, so had to teach herself how to teach stuff like reading & writing

Dimitri

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #293 on: February 08, 2015, 09:23:17 PM »
“People cited violation of the First Amendment when a New Jersey schoolteacher asserted that evolution and the Big Bang are not scientific and that Noah's ark carried dinosaurs. This case is not about the need to separate church and state; it's about the need to separate ignorant, scientifically illiterate people from the ranks of teachers.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson

Some people shouldn't be teachers.  Not in a public school and certainly not at home.  Enough said.

sarah8001

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #294 on: February 09, 2015, 04:24:10 AM »
Probably going to be crucified for this, but does what you learn in elementary school and high school honestly really matter that much? As long as you can read with some level of comprehension, do math to basic algebra, carry on a CIVIL conversation about differing opinions, don't eat paste, and don't hit other classmates, you're about at the level of 101 college classes. Lots of publicly schooled adults are clueless (just look at the AntiMustachian Hall of Shame), and a lot of public and home schools teach dated or incorrect information. My history classes were all taught by the same woman, and her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us to vote Democratic forever. That was pretty much all I remember. Bush is bad. Republicans are evil. Neo conservatives are some kind of shadow group controlling the government secretly. Vote Democratic, or be slaves to evil big businesses forever (because owning a big business is morally wrong). This is what she taught EVER SINGLE graduating class in that town.
My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing how lesbians are more morally correct than gay men, how it's morally ok to divorce your wife if she gains 30 pounds in middle age because she voided your marriage contract (his pot belly and balding head don't count as violations) and how his giant pet python was trying to kill him (it was, he and another teacher eventually put it outside on a winter night and got drunk while they watched it freeze to death, which he informed us gleefully was actually exquistively painful for the snake). He also told me that he didn't like me, and that if I signed up for any math classes after I finished the minimum math credits necessary for graduation, he would make sure I flunked them.
Not everyone goes to public schools as crappy as mine was, but some people do. And some people are homeschooled by parents who do a crappy job. And you are surrounded by people who had crappy K-12 education every day, and you don't even notice for the most part. I know people who went to excellent private schools and don't have the math skills to figure out what their MPG were on their last tank of gas. I can't honestly remember most of what I drilled so dedicatedly in high school, and I'm willing to bet most people don't remember much more than I do. Anyways, I think the point of K-12 is to teach you basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way. And to babysit kids so both parents can work. You can learn these things pretty easily being homeschooled. I'm not saying homeschooling is great for everyone, but I think the choice is more about lifestyle than it is about education. You can always take a 90 level college course if you're really behind, but 13 years of bullying, boredom, and aggressive brainwashing is harder to fix.

Annamal

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #295 on: February 09, 2015, 11:12:59 AM »
Probably going to be crucified for this, but does what you learn in elementary school and high school honestly really matter that much? As long as you can read with some level of comprehension, do math to basic algebra, carry on a CIVIL conversation about differing opinions, don't eat paste, and don't hit other classmates, you're about at the level of 101 college classes. Lots of publicly schooled adults are clueless (just look at the AntiMustachian Hall of Shame), and a lot of public and home schools teach dated or incorrect information. My history classes were all taught by the same woman, and her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us to vote Democratic forever. That was pretty much all I remember. Bush is bad. Republicans are evil. Neo conservatives are some kind of shadow group controlling the government secretly. Vote Democratic, or be slaves to evil big businesses forever (because owning a big business is morally wrong). This is what she taught EVER SINGLE graduating class in that town.
My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing how lesbians are more morally correct than gay men, how it's morally ok to divorce your wife if she gains 30 pounds in middle age because she voided your marriage contract (his pot belly and balding head don't count as violations) and how his giant pet python was trying to kill him (it was, he and another teacher eventually put it outside on a winter night and got drunk while they watched it freeze to death, which he informed us gleefully was actually exquistively painful for the snake). He also told me that he didn't like me, and that if I signed up for any math classes after I finished the minimum math credits necessary for graduation, he would make sure I flunked them.
Not everyone goes to public schools as crappy as mine was, but some people do. And some people are homeschooled by parents who do a crappy job. And you are surrounded by people who had crappy K-12 education every day, and you don't even notice for the most part. I know people who went to excellent private schools and don't have the math skills to figure out what their MPG were on their last tank of gas. I can't honestly remember most of what I drilled so dedicatedly in high school, and I'm willing to bet most people don't remember much more than I do. Anyways, I think the point of K-12 is to teach you basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way. And to babysit kids so both parents can work. You can learn these things pretty easily being homeschooled. I'm not saying homeschooling is great for everyone, but I think the choice is more about lifestyle than it is about education. You can always take a 90 level college course if you're really behind, but 13 years of bullying, boredom, and aggressive brainwashing is harder to fix.

My public high school could definitely have been better but it had things like Shakespeare club, a yearly school musical, a really really good programming teacher and an entire unit revolving around starting a small business (not to mention the time they had us building bivouacs and sleeping in them). I'm sorry your experience sucked but I'm grateful for the opportunities I had in high-school, I mean where else are you likely to be exposed to such a wide range of life experience for free.

Gin1984

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #296 on: February 09, 2015, 11:30:08 AM »
Probably going to be crucified for this, but does what you learn in elementary school and high school honestly really matter that much? As long as you can read with some level of comprehension, do math to basic algebra, carry on a CIVIL conversation about differing opinions, don't eat paste, and don't hit other classmates, you're about at the level of 101 college classes. Lots of publicly schooled adults are clueless (just look at the AntiMustachian Hall of Shame), and a lot of public and home schools teach dated or incorrect information. My history classes were all taught by the same woman, and her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us to vote Democratic forever. That was pretty much all I remember. Bush is bad. Republicans are evil. Neo conservatives are some kind of shadow group controlling the government secretly. Vote Democratic, or be slaves to evil big businesses forever (because owning a big business is morally wrong). This is what she taught EVER SINGLE graduating class in that town.
My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing how lesbians are more morally correct than gay men, how it's morally ok to divorce your wife if she gains 30 pounds in middle age because she voided your marriage contract (his pot belly and balding head don't count as violations) and how his giant pet python was trying to kill him (it was, he and another teacher eventually put it outside on a winter night and got drunk while they watched it freeze to death, which he informed us gleefully was actually exquistively painful for the snake). He also told me that he didn't like me, and that if I signed up for any math classes after I finished the minimum math credits necessary for graduation, he would make sure I flunked them.
Not everyone goes to public schools as crappy as mine was, but some people do. And some people are homeschooled by parents who do a crappy job. And you are surrounded by people who had crappy K-12 education every day, and you don't even notice for the most part. I know people who went to excellent private schools and don't have the math skills to figure out what their MPG were on their last tank of gas. I can't honestly remember most of what I drilled so dedicatedly in high school, and I'm willing to bet most people don't remember much more than I do. Anyways, I think the point of K-12 is to teach you basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way. And to babysit kids so both parents can work. You can learn these things pretty easily being homeschooled. I'm not saying homeschooling is great for everyone, but I think the choice is more about lifestyle than it is about education. You can always take a 90 level college course if you're really behind, but 13 years of bullying, boredom, and aggressive brainwashing is harder to fix.

My public high school could definitely have been better but it had things like Shakespeare club, a yearly school musical, a really really good programming teacher and an entire unit revolving around starting a small business (not to mention the time they had us building bivouacs and sleeping in them). I'm sorry your experience sucked but I'm grateful for the opportunities I had in high-school, I mean where else are you likely to be exposed to such a wide range of life experience for free.
I am honestly horrified by the discription.  It also makes me less willing to send my kid to a public school.  My husband went to public school and while it was not as good as my private school, it was no where near as horrible as the above poster.  That said, there were a few public schools that were as good as my private school, at least for grammar school.  I find horrific that people think all you should learn in K-12 is "basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way.", what about science, history, polisci, art, PE (I hated PE as a kid yet as an adult I have used some of what I learned there)?  We as a society have such a low science knowledge and now we are accepting putting children in a situation where they learn none.  It is bad enough now, why make it worse.  Should be not be trying to make things better, not worse?

James

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #297 on: February 09, 2015, 04:10:30 PM »
Probably going to be crucified for this, but does what you learn in elementary school and high school honestly really matter that much? As long as you can read with some level of comprehension, do math to basic algebra, carry on a CIVIL conversation about differing opinions, don't eat paste, and don't hit other classmates, you're about at the level of 101 college classes. Lots of publicly schooled adults are clueless (just look at the AntiMustachian Hall of Shame), and a lot of public and home schools teach dated or incorrect information. My history classes were all taught by the same woman, and her whole agenda our entire junior and senior year was to convince us to vote Democratic forever. That was pretty much all I remember. Bush is bad. Republicans are evil. Neo conservatives are some kind of shadow group controlling the government secretly. Vote Democratic, or be slaves to evil big businesses forever (because owning a big business is morally wrong). This is what she taught EVER SINGLE graduating class in that town.
My high school math teacher spent most of the class discussing how lesbians are more morally correct than gay men, how it's morally ok to divorce your wife if she gains 30 pounds in middle age because she voided your marriage contract (his pot belly and balding head don't count as violations) and how his giant pet python was trying to kill him (it was, he and another teacher eventually put it outside on a winter night and got drunk while they watched it freeze to death, which he informed us gleefully was actually exquistively painful for the snake). He also told me that he didn't like me, and that if I signed up for any math classes after I finished the minimum math credits necessary for graduation, he would make sure I flunked them.
Not everyone goes to public schools as crappy as mine was, but some people do. And some people are homeschooled by parents who do a crappy job. And you are surrounded by people who had crappy K-12 education every day, and you don't even notice for the most part. I know people who went to excellent private schools and don't have the math skills to figure out what their MPG were on their last tank of gas. I can't honestly remember most of what I drilled so dedicatedly in high school, and I'm willing to bet most people don't remember much more than I do. Anyways, I think the point of K-12 is to teach you basic math, reading and writing, and how to interact with another human being in a socially correct way. And to babysit kids so both parents can work. You can learn these things pretty easily being homeschooled. I'm not saying homeschooling is great for everyone, but I think the choice is more about lifestyle than it is about education. You can always take a 90 level college course if you're really behind, but 13 years of bullying, boredom, and aggressive brainwashing is harder to fix.

An interesting perspective, and it captures the complexity of the issue well. Thanks much for sharing.
 
I have believed for a long time that the best fix for public schools is video in every classroom. Teachers should know that their class can be reviewed at any time by administration, parents, etc. It should be subject to peer review, so other teachers can offer input and advice on teachers they work with, just like I am peer reviewed in health care and subject to input and advice from my co-workers. If a student complains, the video shows both the teacher and student behavior. If a student causes problems, he can be dealt with and parents can be shown the video. Just makes sense to me, I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

mxt0133

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #298 on: February 09, 2015, 05:17:21 PM »
I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

 


James

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Re: MMM and Home Schooling
« Reply #299 on: February 09, 2015, 05:57:14 PM »
I don't know why it isn't a part of every classroom.

I'm going to assume it's the same reason why we don't put videos on each office or cubicle because people don't like being treated like convicts that cannot be trusted.  I'm all for constructive feed back but I can't imagine someone criticizing my every move without actually being in the situation especially with children, nor do I think someone will actually go trough each video just so they can catch someone doing something inappropriately.

On a more cynical note if they did do that then a lot of the teacher would probably be fired and no one would replace them for fear of being under a microscope.  I think most administrator and parents would come to this same conclusion and no use the videos as often and only be done as a coercion tactic against the teachers.  The teachers will be so preoccupied with being PC and following the rules that any resemblance of "teaching" will be thrown out the window.

This solution will not foster an environment where trust and cooperation can grow which is essential in a teacher student relationship.

We don't put video in cubicals because there is other ways to monitor work productivity. But plenty of offices have general video monitors covering employees, calling them "security cameras" just makes it more acceptable. And most things office workers do is monitored, internet activity, email, everything is logged and recorded.
 
I work in health care, and most things I do are recorded automatically. If the patient has poor vital signs, it's in the record. If I give the wrong drug that is in the record. And coworkers are with me and will speak up if I mess up. The most important and critical parts of what I do are out there for everyone to see. And my boss can see every piece of information that goes in or out of my computer at any time. There is no expectation of privacy at work, and that is just the way it is. Teachers should not be the exception to the rules everyone else faces at work.
 
Regarding your cynicism, if they all quit or get fired the pay will go up greatly and I bet there are plenty who are willing to teach even while on video. But hell, if they get fired for what they say on video why the hell shouldn't they be fired??? Who wants their kid in school with a teacher who would get fired except that they aren't caught on tape? Frankly, I think most teachers would do just fine being on tape. They might notice it for a week, but after that they would just go on about life. And when they messed up there would need to be exceptions just like for anyone else. I make mistakes and teachers are allowed to make mistakes also. But I'm not allowed to screw up too bad or I will get fired, and the same should be for teachers and any other employee. But right now I don't think there is enough support for poor teachers, praise for great teachers, feedback to parents, etc etc. The system is broken, so if video isn't the answer then lets talk about what you think is the answer, cause what we have going right now isn't working well.