Author Topic: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")  (Read 50158 times)

accolay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #300 on: July 27, 2019, 08:18:49 AM »
If you're a WASP, heavily churchy and don't mind potlucks and chain franchises (and bad weather), Fargo would be a great place for you.  But there's a reason I stay in Seattle, even though it would be much cheaper to live in Fargo.

You took the words right out of my mouth. People are also forgetting the douchebaggery and corruption that is the ND government. But at least you can have dinner at that fancy Applebee's.

somebody8198

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #301 on: July 27, 2019, 10:49:59 AM »
Totally depends on your career of course, but just looking up software engineers I'm seeing data showing they make $42k more salary (plus $18k more in bonus and profit sharing) in San Francisco than Fargo. That's a difference of $5,000/month.

This goes back to the point I was making a month ago, which is that companies keep expanding in San Francisco in spite of the astronomical cost of paying people to work there. If they thought they could find enough talented people in Fargo to meet their business needs, why in the world wouldn't they go that route? It would be so much cheaper. Microsoft actually has a reasonably large development office in Fargo, and I'm sure they would rather bring a new hire into that office at Fargo prices than in Redmond at Seattle-area prices. The reality, however, is that there aren't enough people willing to work in Fargo. The Redmond location is still way larger than the Fargo location, and this won't be changing in the foreseeable future because most of the workers aren't willing to move to North Dakota.

There are lots and lots of companies doing exactly that, but not in 3rd/4th tier cities like Fargo. I live in Austin now and lots of Silicon Valley companies are building up offices here. It's cheaper to rent offices here, although it's always getting more expensive, and housing, despite being in high demand, is not that expensive. More importantly, prospective employees want to live here. Austin has a reputation for being a "fun" city for young professionals. I'm sure a place like Fargo is lovely for buying a home but you would be hard pressed to convince a 23 year old to live there.

Austin is getting more expensive for both offices and housing, but it's still way, WAY cheaper than SF or NYC or even Seattle. Part of it is its location in the middle of a state rather than on a coast. Lots of room to build, build, build. Also a lot of urban neighborhoods that could be redeveloped and junky old office buildings to replace with skyscrapers. Texas has basically zero zoning laws, so it's the real estate supply is not going to run out any time soon.

There are a handful of 2nd tier cities that "look" like Austin. A guy I knew moved out to Missoula to work for some tech firm. The big downside is that once cities like this get too big the traffic starts to result in incredible 1hr+ commutes from anywhere you could afford to buy a home, and prices keep climbing. So then it just becomes another place to move away from once you are ready to settle down.

dougules

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #302 on: July 29, 2019, 11:08:51 AM »
Totally depends on your career of course, but just looking up software engineers I'm seeing data showing they make $42k more salary (plus $18k more in bonus and profit sharing) in San Francisco than Fargo. That's a difference of $5,000/month.

This goes back to the point I was making a month ago, which is that companies keep expanding in San Francisco in spite of the astronomical cost of paying people to work there. If they thought they could find enough talented people in Fargo to meet their business needs, why in the world wouldn't they go that route? It would be so much cheaper. Microsoft actually has a reasonably large development office in Fargo, and I'm sure they would rather bring a new hire into that office at Fargo prices than in Redmond at Seattle-area prices. The reality, however, is that there aren't enough people willing to work in Fargo. The Redmond location is still way larger than the Fargo location, and this won't be changing in the foreseeable future because most of the workers aren't willing to move to North Dakota.

There are lots and lots of companies doing exactly that, but not in 3rd/4th tier cities like Fargo. I live in Austin now and lots of Silicon Valley companies are building up offices here. It's cheaper to rent offices here, although it's always getting more expensive, and housing, despite being in high demand, is not that expensive. More importantly, prospective employees want to live here. Austin has a reputation for being a "fun" city for young professionals. I'm sure a place like Fargo is lovely for buying a home but you would be hard pressed to convince a 23 year old to live there.

Austin is getting more expensive for both offices and housing, but it's still way, WAY cheaper than SF or NYC or even Seattle. Part of it is its location in the middle of a state rather than on a coast. Lots of room to build, build, build. Also a lot of urban neighborhoods that could be redeveloped and junky old office buildings to replace with skyscrapers. Texas has basically zero zoning laws, so it's the real estate supply is not going to run out any time soon.

There are a handful of 2nd tier cities that "look" like Austin. A guy I knew moved out to Missoula to work for some tech firm. The big downside is that once cities like this get too big the traffic starts to result in incredible 1hr+ commutes from anywhere you could afford to buy a home, and prices keep climbing. So then it just becomes another place to move away from once you are ready to settle down.

It's funny to hear places talk about wanting to attract families, but completely ignoring the fact that singles generally turn into families eventually. 

fuzzy math

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #303 on: July 29, 2019, 02:50:19 PM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws. Do you think that all happened in a vacumn? And your experience with mcmansions in MN may be very different than say Spartana's experience with McMansions in CA. Also I don't know where you visited in Chicago but there are a lot of livable neighborhoods in Chicago. It's a big town.



And regarding mcmansions, almost by definition my experience with them would be extremely similar to anyone else's. Otherwise we'd just call them mansions. But given the sheer size, even if they occupy almost the entire lot, the length of the lot will be enough to accommodate 3 parked cars at a minimum and often as many as 5 or 6 along the front curb.
I think your experience is greatly different from mine - and probably different from a lot of densely populated areas of Calif. The mcmansions plus ADUs going up in my old area are on relatively small lots that generally only have one street parking spot in front of the house. This is the case of the 9 bedroom/9 bath house plus ADU being built in my old hood I mentioned in another thread. This is the case with ALL the houses in my former tract of SFHs as well as in the surrounding area. Some don't have any street parking at all.

So in an area with no public transit and SFHs of any size being used as multi family dwellings you'll have many more cars than an average driveway and garage can hold. Codes require a 5 bedroom or larger house to have a 3 car garage and 3 spots on the driveway plus one parking spot for an ADU. Sounds like enough but there are likely to be 18 plus adult people living in that house...legally...and illegally most garages are rented out to several people too. Not everyone will have a car but it will still be way way way to many to support street parking. Especially when this kind of living situation is common to most houses here - even the original 1000 sf 3 bedroom 2 bath houses with 2 car garages, 2 car driveway and one spot of street parking in front of the house generally have 8 - 10 adult people (with cars) living in them. Now multiply that by almost every small house in the tract and building a few mcmansions plus ADUs on the same size lots and renting to 18 plus people creates havoc in an area zoned for SFH. Now if a developer wants to buy up all the tract houses and build multi family residences with appropriate parking I'm cool with that.

Well, this sounds pretty crazy. I agree what you're referring to is a shitshow, but those don't sound like McMansions to me.  It sounds like developers are building de facto multi family housing under the guise of a luxury home to satisfy market demand as well as zoning regulations. To be honest, I am extremely curious to see these buildings and how people use them. Do you have any links you could share?
That's exactly what's happening. Its pretty common in LA and now has spread to more suburban areas like Orange County.  Here's a photo of a smaller house than most and no ADU but its a good example of former small house next to larger house around that part of OC. Most are much large in the 5,000 sf or bigger range on small lots. Its pretty crazy. Many small shared bedrooms too. Here's a few. Many more around all thru out OC neighborhoods even in different towns.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LXgMFhXysAiySSZE8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/xbqArALxPU6Y5prz6


https://maps.app.goo.gl/TJt9RTFreUUJaFvV8

Some even have 2 - 4000 to 5000 sf houses on one lot.   
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QxzfsQDwUEm329xt9

I could be in the minority here, but I think a lot of those newer properties look nice. Makes the unpainted, unrenovated 50s-70s ranch homes look kinda shitty. I've never seen much charm in cheaper looking ranch homes though (and I've lived in a bunch). I'm curious to see if the home being built in your old neighborhood is much worse than any of these? Most have clearance to where you're not encroaching on the neighbor's property. The photo with 5 cars parked out front is a little intense though.

dougules

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #304 on: July 30, 2019, 10:33:18 AM »
That's exactly what's happening. Its pretty common in LA and now has spread to more suburban areas like Orange County.  Here's a photo of a smaller house than most and no ADU but its a good example of former small house next to larger house around that part of OC. Most are much large in the 5,000 sf or bigger range on small lots. Its pretty crazy. Many small shared bedrooms too. Here's a few. Many more around all thru out OC neighborhoods even in different towns.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LXgMFhXysAiySSZE8

https://maps.app.goo.gl/xbqArALxPU6Y5prz6


https://maps.app.goo.gl/TJt9RTFreUUJaFvV8

Some even have 2 - 4000 to 5000 sf houses on one lot.   
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QxzfsQDwUEm329xt9

I could be in the minority here, but I think a lot of those newer properties look nice. Makes the unpainted, unrenovated 50s-70s ranch homes look kinda shitty. I've never seen much charm in cheaper looking ranch homes though (and I've lived in a bunch). I'm curious to see if the home being built in your old neighborhood is much worse than any of these? Most have clearance to where you're not encroaching on the neighbor's property. The photo with 5 cars parked out front is a little intense though.

We have a mid-century modern ranch neighborhood here that's about to be put on the National Register of Historic Places, mostly because it's associated with the Apollo program, but also for the architecture.  People said the same thing about Victorians when they were 60 years old. 

The 1950s are just as historic as any other era's architecture.  It's more about the fact that most development from that era used urban space very inefficiently.     

fuzzy math

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #305 on: July 30, 2019, 01:52:23 PM »

We have a mid-century modern ranch neighborhood here that's about to be put on the National Register of Historic Places, mostly because it's associated with the Apollo program, but also for the architecture.  People said the same thing about Victorians when they were 60 years old. 

The 1950s are just as historic as any other era's architecture.  It's more about the fact that most development from that era used urban space very inefficiently.     

If you have a true mid century modern (open walls, wood etc) its architecturally beautiful and should be on the register. You should never just refer to it as a ranch.
The types of FUGLY ranches I'm talking about are the ones that are shown in this street view.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LXgMFhXysAiySSZE8




dougules

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #306 on: July 30, 2019, 03:34:58 PM »

We have a mid-century modern ranch neighborhood here that's about to be put on the National Register of Historic Places, mostly because it's associated with the Apollo program, but also for the architecture.  People said the same thing about Victorians when they were 60 years old. 

The 1950s are just as historic as any other era's architecture.  It's more about the fact that most development from that era used urban space very inefficiently.     

If you have a true mid century modern (open walls, wood etc) its architecturally beautiful and should be on the register. You should never just refer to it as a ranch.
The types of FUGLY ranches I'm talking about are the ones that are shown in this street view.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LXgMFhXysAiySSZE8

Fugly is in the eye of the beholder.  Even those houses will probably be seen as historic at some point. 

They are terrible use of the space, though, and I'm guessing even they sell for a princely sum given that they're taking up so much Southern California real estate for so little living space. 

fuzzy math

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #307 on: July 30, 2019, 08:16:55 PM »
I don't think you're getting prissy. I understand where you're coming from as I've left the west coast and been priced out of ever reasonably living in 2 cities I considered home if I ever want to FIRE.

That being said, it is apealing when a home that hasn't been painted / hasn't had new siding in 50 years is either razed or renovated. I find it hard to believe that so many of those homes managed to be purchased by people who could afford to make a down payment, then monthly payments for the past 30 years before prices ballooned, but they can't even update the exterior of the home (or a color blind person chose the paint). I've lived in a lot of those type of neighborhoods, and it's rarely the $$ preventing them from doing those easy maintenance tasks (like most things in life, right?)

The house with all the gargoyles is far worse than any in need of renovation ranch style home. I think we all agree on that!

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #308 on: July 31, 2019, 08:08:29 AM »
That being said, it is apealing when a home that hasn't been painted / hasn't had new siding in 50 years is either razed or renovated. I find it hard to believe that so many of those homes managed to be purchased by people who could afford to make a down payment, then monthly payments for the past 30 years before prices ballooned, but they can't even update the exterior of the home (or a color blind person chose the paint). I've lived in a lot of those type of neighborhoods, and it's rarely the $$ preventing them from doing those easy maintenance tasks (like most things in life, right?)

Oooof, I don't know about that. Talked to my neighbor last night. She paid $20,000 to get her 1,500 sq ft house resided in VINYL. She said the hardie bid was $50,000. This is in St. Paul, MN - not known for being particularly HCOL.

That was not easy for me to hear as I'm preparing to get re-roofed and re-sided and I will have some bids coming in soon. I'm a DIY guy but I have a FT job and 8 months pregnant wife not to mention we have a 3 yr old. Not trying to leave a dumpster and scaffolding out for months and months while my housewrap gets UV damage etc etc.


MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #309 on: July 31, 2019, 02:15:01 PM »
That being said, it is apealing when a home that hasn't been painted / hasn't had new siding in 50 years is either razed or renovated. I find it hard to believe that so many of those homes managed to be purchased by people who could afford to make a down payment, then monthly payments for the past 30 years before prices ballooned, but they can't even update the exterior of the home (or a color blind person chose the paint). I've lived in a lot of those type of neighborhoods, and it's rarely the $$ preventing them from doing those easy maintenance tasks (like most things in life, right?)

Oooof, I don't know about that. Talked to my neighbor last night. She paid $20,000 to get her 1,500 sq ft house resided in VINYL. She said the hardie bid was $50,000. This is in St. Paul, MN - not known for being particularly HCOL.

That was not easy for me to hear as I'm preparing to get re-roofed and re-sided and I will have some bids coming in soon. I'm a DIY guy but I have a FT job and 8 months pregnant wife not to mention we have a 3 yr old. Not trying to leave a dumpster and scaffolding out for months and months while my housewrap gets UV damage etc etc.

We just got a bid in MSP to fix our starting-to-crumble front steps. 12k! I called two other masonry businesses and they were even giving bids- they said I could get on their 2020 list. Holy buckets. I am expecting a real estate correction in 2020 so I'm hoping contractor pricing (or at least demand) will drop a little next year. Cuz we make 200k a year and we do not want to drop 12k fixing our crappy steps, so imagine someone making the median income.

merula

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #310 on: July 31, 2019, 02:54:44 PM »
We just got a bid in MSP to fix our starting-to-crumble front steps. 12k! I called two other masonry businesses and they were even giving bids- they said I could get on their 2020 list. Holy buckets. I am expecting a real estate correction in 2020 so I'm hoping contractor pricing (or at least demand) will drop a little next year. Cuz we make 200k a year and we do not want to drop 12k fixing our crappy steps, so imagine someone making the median income.

Ditto... just had a bid for $14k for a 120 sq ft concrete paver patio. It was completely off the wall. I did it myself over 3 weeks for $3,500 total OOP (including renting heavy equipment and some pallet deposits I haven't yet gotten back). This is for Anchor Block pavers; I'm sure I could've halved the materials cost by going cheaper.

Also expecting a correction, but I don't expect it to impact contractor pricing as much as it did in 2007-8. There just aren't enough people in the trades anymore for it to be that much of a glut.

fuzzy math

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #311 on: July 31, 2019, 03:48:42 PM »
That being said, it is apealing when a home that hasn't been painted / hasn't had new siding in 50 years is either razed or renovated. I find it hard to believe that so many of those homes managed to be purchased by people who could afford to make a down payment, then monthly payments for the past 30 years before prices ballooned, but they can't even update the exterior of the home (or a color blind person chose the paint). I've lived in a lot of those type of neighborhoods, and it's rarely the $$ preventing them from doing those easy maintenance tasks (like most things in life, right?)

Oooof, I don't know about that. Talked to my neighbor last night. She paid $20,000 to get her 1,500 sq ft house resided in VINYL. She said the hardie bid was $50,000. This is in St. Paul, MN - not known for being particularly HCOL.

That was not easy for me to hear as I'm preparing to get re-roofed and re-sided and I will have some bids coming in soon. I'm a DIY guy but I have a FT job and 8 months pregnant wife not to mention we have a 3 yr old. Not trying to leave a dumpster and scaffolding out for months and months while my housewrap gets UV damage etc etc.

I had an old home w 2000 sf done in Hardiboard in 2016 for $10k in Portland OR (known for expensive costs). Your friend either asked for a ton of decorative stuff to be done w the home, or got ripped off... Or perhaps you're doing Midwest house math where the entire basement is discounted for square footage concerns, and the home is actually a 4000 sf monstrosity on 3 levels.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #312 on: July 31, 2019, 03:57:22 PM »
We just got a bid in MSP to fix our starting-to-crumble front steps. 

I make median income and my steps, while not crumbling, need cosmetic repair. I'm waiting a few years ;)

accolay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #313 on: July 31, 2019, 04:10:03 PM »
We just got a bid in MSP to fix our starting-to-crumble front steps. 12k! I called two other masonry businesses and they were even giving bids- they said I could get on their 2020 list. Holy buckets. I am expecting a real estate correction in 2020 so I'm hoping contractor pricing (or at least demand) will drop a little next year. Cuz we make 200k a year and we do not want to drop 12k fixing our crappy steps, so imagine someone making the median income.

Whaaaat? Do you have steps like the Acropolis or something? I had the front steps AND sidewalk to them done two years ago for $3k and I supplied the dumpster for debri. $12k is outrageous. If you want the guy I used, PM me.

I feel like if one calls the first contractor on Angie's List or similar they're going to get these ridiculous pricing. I also had a contractor tell me it'd be $15k for a VERY small kitchen and bathroom (and we already had purchased all fixtures and cabinets and I'd done the rough in plumbing.)

fuzzy math

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #314 on: July 31, 2019, 04:14:32 PM »
Are all of your contractors there owned by the mob or something? Or just people taking advantage of the building boom there to extort cash from homeowners?

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #315 on: July 31, 2019, 04:28:50 PM »
How much does a vinyl siding job cost?

As much as the contractor can get for it. 


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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #316 on: July 31, 2019, 05:23:29 PM »

Many aspects of this thread remind me of personal experiences and my fundamental belief that our biggest issue as a species is the uncontrolled growth of the human population.  We bought our home largely because of the it's location and the neighborhood.  Does this make us shallow or elitist? Whether its the increasing concentration of population in our cities, the quality of our mass produced food or the many other symptoms of the earth's growing population, past norms will change.  The earth has over 7 billion people.  Imagine the resources it takes to support this reality.  People expect more and they live longer than they used to. All of the major economies use debt based currencies and capitalism works best only during growth.  Furthermore, governments attempt to control their economies and implement an ever increasing form of social reform and/or assistance. A booming economy is what we all seek, but when employment is low and economic growth is positive, the cost of goods and services tend to climb.  When we bought our latest home, we were planning to hire contractors for most of the renovation work. Between the ridiculous quotes and contractors telling us that our jobs were not big enough quote, I ended up doing most of the work myself and we also reduced our expectations.  I spent many nights after work and weekends renovating all of our bathrooms and I still have a lot to do.   

Between the discovery of electricity, agricultural advances, computer technology, travel, biology, and other engineering advances, the evolution of technology has leaped frogged over the past 150 years.  Despite these advances, our species hasn't evolved much.  We live in interesting times in deed.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #317 on: August 01, 2019, 06:00:44 AM »
Admittedly the greater Seattle area is crazy with construction right now, but I'm on the HOA for my condo, and for the last 3-4 years it's been almost impossible to get three different bids for any of our repair/maintenance projects (like we're supposed to).  Contractors just don't return her calls--they have all the work they can handle and then some, and most of it is new construction.  So repair jobs on older buildings aren't their priority, and when they do bid, they add extra $$ just because they don't want to hassle with us. 

It's very frustrating.  On the other hand, on the next downturn you'd better believe we'll remember which contractors made time for us (and didn't try to rip us off) and which ones didn't ....

accolay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #318 on: August 01, 2019, 03:07:02 PM »
So repair jobs on older buildings aren't their priority, and when they do bid, they add extra $$ just because they don't want to hassle with us.

Not a truer statement has ever been said.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #319 on: August 01, 2019, 03:51:28 PM »

When you think about it, general contractors and/or craftspeople who achieve FI, have a golden opportunity for part-time work during RE. 

BJ

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #320 on: August 04, 2019, 05:55:08 AM »
If they choose.  And they can probably stay busy in their own personal friends and family networks and not hassle with crazy HGTV-addicted homeowners.

MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #321 on: August 05, 2019, 06:11:20 AM »
We just got a bid in MSP to fix our starting-to-crumble front steps. 12k! I called two other masonry businesses and they were even giving bids- they said I could get on their 2020 list. Holy buckets. I am expecting a real estate correction in 2020 so I'm hoping contractor pricing (or at least demand) will drop a little next year. Cuz we make 200k a year and we do not want to drop 12k fixing our crappy steps, so imagine someone making the median income.

Whaaaat? Do you have steps like the Acropolis or something? I had the front steps AND sidewalk to them done two years ago for $3k and I supplied the dumpster for debri. $12k is outrageous. If you want the guy I used, PM me.

I feel like if one calls the first contractor on Angie's List or similar they're going to get these ridiculous pricing. I also had a contractor tell me it'd be $15k for a VERY small kitchen and bathroom (and we already had purchased all fixtures and cabinets and I'd done the rough in plumbing.)

Yes, I would love the name!

There are built in brick planters and so it is definitely more complex than simple steps, but that's still outrageous.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #322 on: August 05, 2019, 08:29:43 AM »
That being said, it is apealing when a home that hasn't been painted / hasn't had new siding in 50 years is either razed or renovated. I find it hard to believe that so many of those homes managed to be purchased by people who could afford to make a down payment, then monthly payments for the past 30 years before prices ballooned, but they can't even update the exterior of the home (or a color blind person chose the paint). I've lived in a lot of those type of neighborhoods, and it's rarely the $$ preventing them from doing those easy maintenance tasks (like most things in life, right?)

Oooof, I don't know about that. Talked to my neighbor last night. She paid $20,000 to get her 1,500 sq ft house resided in VINYL. She said the hardie bid was $50,000. This is in St. Paul, MN - not known for being particularly HCOL.

That was not easy for me to hear as I'm preparing to get re-roofed and re-sided and I will have some bids coming in soon. I'm a DIY guy but I have a FT job and 8 months pregnant wife not to mention we have a 3 yr old. Not trying to leave a dumpster and scaffolding out for months and months while my housewrap gets UV damage etc etc.

I had an old home w 2000 sf done in Hardiboard in 2016 for $10k in Portland OR (known for expensive costs). Your friend either asked for a ton of decorative stuff to be done w the home, or got ripped off... Or perhaps you're doing Midwest house math where the entire basement is discounted for square footage concerns, and the home is actually a 4000 sf monstrosity on 3 levels.

Was there an insurance payout involved? 10k for either prepainted or painted on site Hardie sounds like material costs alone for a building that size. Between the trim, the siding, the labor, the dumpster, the permits, 10k seems unrealistic for the highest end material that has one of the highest associated labor costs (due to requiring special blades, dust collection/respirators).

I agree my neighbor's 50k bid sounded suspect, but 10k sounds equally suspect to me.

canuckiwi

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #323 on: August 05, 2019, 01:48:08 PM »
Similar interesting NIMBY/ YIMBY debate discussed on CityLab recently;

www.citylab.com/equity/2019/07/nimby-vs-yimby-single-family-zoning-laws-california-housing/594373/

There is a valid point made that increasing density needs to be done carefully and with local community involvement, otherwise it can achieved by large developers/ corporations with tall condo towers. Allowing for duplexs/ triplexes and accessory dwelling units seems a reasonable way to achieve increased density.

The fear of an increased number of cars in neighborhoods surely could be used to drive creation of a public transport/ bicycle network, of sufficient quality that new people to the neighborhood don't need/ want cars.

The most striking comment about increased density and the potential to be car-free was from the head of the NIMBY organisation: “That’s a really horrifying thought to me: that most peoples’ greatest asset would be a bicycle,” she said. “That’s a diminishment of the American dream.”

I imagine that a large number of boomer SFH+expensive car owners spent their lives working for this "American Dream", with family time  sacrifices along the way. Maybe the emotions against increasing density are, to a large degree, just anger that this specific dream is not valued as much as it used to be.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #324 on: August 05, 2019, 02:18:42 PM »
Car=freedom in this country.  People ain't giving up their freedom.  Very few people will accept being forced into mass transit shared with alcoholics, drug addicts, schizophrenics, and criminals.  If you want mass transit to succeed it has to provide the same freedom as the car and a similar safe and clean environment.  Remember, people vote for bond issues and other tax increases for mass transit in the hopes that their neighbors will take it and free up space on the roads for them. Not because they have any real intention of using it themselves.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #325 on: August 05, 2019, 03:00:28 PM »
The most striking comment about increased density and the potential to be car-free was from the head of the NIMBY organisation: “That’s a really horrifying thought to me: that most peoples’ greatest asset would be a bicycle,” she said. “That’s a diminishment of the American dream.”

I imagine that a large number of boomer SFH+expensive car owners spent their lives working for this "American Dream", with family time  sacrifices along the way. Maybe the emotions against increasing density are, to a large degree, just anger that this specific dream is not valued as much as it used to be.

Hmmm... substitute car with house and it actually makes sense. A car lasts a decade give or take your appetite for shinyness/maintenance, so they're as interchangeable as your index fund investments.

But a house, on the other hand, on a piece of land in a community you are personally invested in, is a good thing. I believe institutional property ownership (publicly traded REITs vs owner occupants) is bad for community. The decisions made about maintenance, highest and best use, etc are so much better for a place when the the land and buildings are owned by those who live there.

So I get that there is a certain dislike of the trend of millenials renting forever, not having kids, and having all of their assets in nameless, faceless index funds. But I see no reason whatsoever to mourn the decline of car ownership.


« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 03:02:50 PM by J Boogie »

dougules

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #326 on: August 05, 2019, 03:36:45 PM »
Car=freedom in this country.  People ain't giving up their freedom.  Very few people will accept being forced into mass transit shared with alcoholics, drug addicts, schizophrenics, and criminals.  If you want mass transit to succeed it has to provide the same freedom as the car and a similar safe and clean environment.  Remember, people vote for bond issues and other tax increases for mass transit in the hopes that their neighbors will take it and free up space on the roads for them. Not because they have any real intention of using it themselves.

A lot of folks see a car as freedom, but a lot of others see a car as a ball and chain.  A lot of people would probably give up their cars if mass transit projects were given the resources and attention that large freeway projects are given.  A lot more would give up their cars if they had to pay the true cost of driving.  I think attitudes are shifting, and the day may come where drivers will be told to pay their fair share. 

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #327 on: August 05, 2019, 03:58:31 PM »
Great!  I want parents to pay their "fair share" of school costs.  I want criminals and victims to pay for their "fair share" of the justice system.  I want sick people to pay their "fair share" of health costs.  No more subsidized County hospitals.  What, you ask, recoiling in horror?  But we agreed as a society to pay for these costs because we agreed they benefit our society.  Well, guess what.  Highway and road improvement taxes, such as gas taxes, usually pass with substantial majorities.  That's because, with the exception of your small but vocal minority, we have agreed as a society that roads benefit our society.  The ONLY reason you have any traction is that your views are supported by urban planners and their politician masters, whose objective is to cram as many people into small areas as possible and to provide as few improvements to them as possible.  Why?  Because residents cost cities money and business bring money in for cities.  You are being used to achieve an entirely different objective, which is to maximize revenue and minimize expenses, so that the current and often crumbling infrastructure can be maintained. 




Fru-Gal

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #328 on: August 05, 2019, 03:58:41 PM »
Agreed. And you can see that shift away from car ownership before your eyes in many great cities in the US and around the world. Young people are driving less and less. Also, faced with college debt vs car debt, they often choose one or the other, not both. It's a great time to be a personal/mass transportation entrepreneur!

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #329 on: August 05, 2019, 04:04:51 PM »
Great!  I want parents to pay their "fair share" of school costs.  I want criminals and victims to pay for their "fair share" of the justice system.  I want sick people to pay their "fair share" of health costs.  No more subsidized County hospitals.  What, you ask, recoiling in horror?  But we agreed as a society to pay for these costs because we agreed they benefit our society.  Well, guess what.  Highway and road improvement taxes, such as gas taxes, usually pass with substantial majorities. 

We shouldn't blindly continue to be inefficient when there's a more efficient way to do things. Storing cars, empty lots for cars, wider roads for cars -- all inefficient. We can do better.

Quote
That's because, with the exception of your small but vocal minority, we have agreed as a society that roads benefit our society.  The ONLY reason you have any traction is that your views are supported by urban planners and their politician masters[...]

Politicians are voted in by a majority, not a small minority.

If enough people in Minneapolis and other cities disagree with increased density, there will be recall petitions. Perhaps you can organize a recall election in your city?

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #330 on: August 05, 2019, 04:25:34 PM »
You may represent a somewhat larger percentage in your city.  I don't know.  For the country as a whole, you represent a small minority. 

Minneapolis may become a more unpleasant place to live and especially to work over time.  As your middle class packs up and leaves for more pleasant surroundings, your city may become a hollowed out place for the very wealthy and the poor.  Your suburban workforce may seek employment in areas more conducive to their needs and wants.  Your tax base may eventually erode into nothing.  We will see.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #331 on: August 05, 2019, 05:19:58 PM »
Car=freedom in this country. 

Cars are a very useful appliance for some applications (e.g. travelling a long distance with other people and cargo), but cars only equal freedom if you live inside a TV car commercial, and if you don't have to work to pay for the car.

Another Reader

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #332 on: August 05, 2019, 06:08:30 PM »
Car=freedom in this country. 

Cars are a very useful appliance for some applications (e.g. travelling a long distance with other people and cargo), but cars only equal freedom if you live inside a TV car commercial, and if you don't have to work to pay for the car.

People work for things that give them pleasure.  Approximately 17 million new vehicles were sold in the US in the last year.  Pretty sure you can't find 17 million people that agree with your POV.

EvenSteven

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #333 on: August 05, 2019, 10:00:26 PM »
You may represent a somewhat larger percentage in your city.  I don't know.  For the country as a whole, you represent a small minority. 

Minneapolis may become a more unpleasant place to live and especially to work over time.  As your middle class packs up and leaves for more pleasant surroundings, your city may become a hollowed out place for the very wealthy and the poor.  Your suburban workforce may seek employment in areas more conducive to their needs and wants.  Your tax base may eventually erode into nothing.  We will see.

I still haven't seen you clearly spell out your reasoning as to why you think the existence of duplexes generates homeless mentally ill drug addicts.

dougules

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #334 on: August 06, 2019, 01:31:13 PM »
Great!  I want parents to pay their "fair share" of school costs.  I want criminals and victims to pay for their "fair share" of the justice system.  I want sick people to pay their "fair share" of health costs.  No more subsidized County hospitals.  What, you ask, recoiling in horror?  But we agreed as a society to pay for these costs because we agreed they benefit our society.  Well, guess what.  Highway and road improvement taxes, such as gas taxes, usually pass with substantial majorities.  That's because, with the exception of your small but vocal minority, we have agreed as a society that roads benefit our society.  The ONLY reason you have any traction is that your views are supported by urban planners and their politician masters, whose objective is to cram as many people into small areas as possible and to provide as few improvements to them as possible.  Why?  Because residents cost cities money and business bring money in for cities.  You are being used to achieve an entirely different objective, which is to maximize revenue and minimize expenses, so that the current and often crumbling infrastructure can be maintained.

Education, justice, and health care are generally recognized as beneficial.  A growing portion of our society doesn't agree any longer that car-only roads benefit everyone.  Vocal minorities have a way of becoming vocal majorities.  You wouldn't be taking the time to advocate for car-centric development if you didn't think that the opposing viewpoint was a growing force.

The current set-up of single family houses on large lots is actually what was artificially forced on the population by "urban" planners.  Their objective was to spread people out as much as possible so they would have to buy cars and so that poor people could be kept out.  There are quite a few people who genuinely don't want to be chained to a car payment or a lawnmower.  Unfortunately that artificial layout is codified into law in most places, giving people no choice. 

You may represent a somewhat larger percentage in your city.  I don't know.  For the country as a whole, you represent a small minority. 

Minneapolis may become a more unpleasant place to live and especially to work over time.  As your middle class packs up and leaves for more pleasant surroundings, your city may become a hollowed out place for the very wealthy and the poor.  Your suburban workforce may seek employment in areas more conducive to their needs and wants.  Your tax base may eventually erode into nothing.  We will see.

For the world as a whole you represent a small minority.  The idea of not subsidizing single occupancy vehicles is uncontroversial in so many parts of the world. 

The middle class isn't packing up and leaving dense cities but being pushed out.  Dense cities are pleasant surroundings, and real estate prices back me up on that.  There isn't enough construction in dense urban environments, so only the wealthiest people are getting to stay.  Minneapolis is trying to keep the middle class from being pushed out to places where there is less economic opportunity and a lower quality of life. 

I don't think tax base is a concern in a place where the main problem is to keep from becoming an exclusive enclave for only the wealthy. 


Car=freedom in this country. 

Cars are a very useful appliance for some applications (e.g. travelling a long distance with other people and cargo), but cars only equal freedom if you live inside a TV car commercial, and if you don't have to work to pay for the car.

People work for things that give them pleasure.  Approximately 17 million new vehicles were sold in the US in the last year.  Pretty sure you can't find 17 million people that agree with your POV.

Actually I'm pretty sure I could easily find that many in a country of 325 million people.   New York City and Chicago have more people than a lot of states, and that's probably a common sentiment in those cities. 

FIPurpose

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #335 on: August 06, 2019, 02:07:00 PM »
Car=freedom in this country. 

Cars are a very useful appliance for some applications (e.g. travelling a long distance with other people and cargo), but cars only equal freedom if you live inside a TV car commercial, and if you don't have to work to pay for the car.

People work for things that give them pleasure.  Approximately 17 million new vehicles were sold in the US in the last year.  Pretty sure you can't find 17 million people that agree with your POV.

Quote
The U.S. auto market hit a record for new cars, with 17.5 million in sales, in 2015. Sales the following year were flat then dipped to 17.2 million in 2017 and rebounded in 2018, rising to 17.3 million. But the first half of this year has plunged into negative territory. Edmunds anticipates sales for all of 2019 will drop to 16.9 million. That's the same estimate from AlixPartners, which is forecasting a further dip to 16.3 million in 2020 and just 15.1 million in 2021.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/26/edmunds-warns-of-a-tough-2019-for-us-auto-industry-as-sales-slide.html

Cars are going to be going up in price in the coming years. People will have to buy older cars to compensate. Either way the cost of car ownership is going up. Comparing that to a $50 per month bus pass, it's honestly a no brainer. Want to get out of town? Rent an enterprise, you'll still come out way ahead. Or are you a consumer sucka?

mm1970

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #336 on: August 06, 2019, 06:44:15 PM »
Car=freedom in this country.  People ain't giving up their freedom.  Very few people will accept being forced into mass transit shared with alcoholics, drug addicts, schizophrenics, and criminals.  If you want mass transit to succeed it has to provide the same freedom as the car and a similar safe and clean environment.  Remember, people vote for bond issues and other tax increases for mass transit in the hopes that their neighbors will take it and free up space on the roads for them. Not because they have any real intention of using it themselves.

A lot of folks see a car as freedom, but a lot of others see a car as a ball and chain.  A lot of people would probably give up their cars if mass transit projects were given the resources and attention that large freeway projects are given.  A lot more would give up their cars if they had to pay the true cost of driving.  I think attitudes are shifting, and the day may come where drivers will be told to pay their fair share.

This is all probably very location-dependent.  I mean, car = freedom only in specific places, and because of how many cities started and grew.  There are dense cities, and even suburbs and small cities, that are better for mass transit and bicycling than owning a car.  Anyone who ever has to drive in the vicinity of LA, is that freedom, really?

In a related vein, we recently returned from a vacation to Denmark.  Car is definitely not freedom there.  Plenty of bicycling and mass transit and rented standing scooters.  We rented a car because we had a lot of plans all over, but it was pretty much a PITA half of the time.  Find parking in flat #1, figure out how to navigate the app, figure out what the rates are (learn eventually that rates in front of the flat are 2x rates 3 blocks away).  Near the city center, even more expensive.  Except Sundays are free which means: good luck finding any spot!  Flat #2 came with an underground parking spot that took a 15 point turn to get in and out of (thanks to that "free upgrade" to a small SUV.) The vast majority of parking spots in this building were occupied by bicycles and even a ping pong table.  1 in 5 actually had a car parked there. 

The infrastructure was great for bicycles in Copenhagen and even elsewhere on Zealand and Jutland.  Most places had a dedicated bike path with their own traffic signal.  I was impressed with the number of women biking in dresses and skirts, to be honest.

Obviously they put a lot of money into mass transit, and they make owning a car very expensive.  I believe our friends said sales tax on a car is ~80% when you buy it (which is why most cars are small).  Then there's the gas cost, roughly 2x what it is here in CA ($11/liter).  I don't know what bus/ train tickets cost (we got one 24-hour pass that included entrance to some sites).  Even car rentals are expensive - the Danes were surprised at our rental car rate for 2 weeks - but if they were to rent a car, they would have to pay tax, and we don't.  Also, parking is not free.  In Copenhagen, cost depends on zones.  To go to any sight - Legoland or other amusement parks or even a public park/ coastline for a hike - you pay (also: no cash, cards only, pay at a kiosk).  The only free parking we had was when visiting friends at their homes /summer houses.


I loved it, esp the walking (we didn't bike bc youngest kid doesn't do that yet).  And admittedly, I'm not a car person - but my matrix is actually bigger than most cars we saw on the road.  However,  America's "car culture" might take a nosedive if suddenly your $28k car costs you $52k instead.  There are places here where cars make sense (I grew up in the middle of nowhere - a 20 mile drive to the grocery store), and places that they don't (NYC anyone?)  We had family from there visiting us recently and the first question was "doesn't anyone bike here?  It seems like people drive literally everywhere?"  Pretty much.

ysette9

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I remember being an exchange student in French and feeling like true freedom was the ability to go anywhere you wanted to simply by walking out your front door. Buses are clean, frequent reliable and go everywhere. Any place that isn’t a total cow farm in the country is accessible by trains that are way faster and better on all levels than anything I’ve seen in the states. I went wherever I wanted whenever I wanted at a relatively affordable rate (thanks to student discounts!) and never once had to think about where to park a car. The only issue I had was when I shut the night club down in my little city and had to wait for the buses to restart at 5:00 in the morning. ;)

Kris

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I remember being an exchange student in French and feeling like true freedom was the ability to go anywhere you wanted to simply by walking out your front door. Buses are clean, frequent reliable and go everywhere. Any place that isn’t a total cow farm in the country is accessible by trains that are way faster and better on all levels than anything I’ve seen in the states. I went wherever I wanted whenever I wanted at a relatively affordable rate (thanks to student discounts!) and never once had to think about where to park a car. The only issue I had was when I shut the night club down in my little city and had to wait for the buses to restart at 5:00 in the morning. ;)

I think most people who have had the privilege of actually living in another developed country understand things like this, and that is a real cultural divide in the US.

The fact is, there are some things that other countries are legitimately shitloads better at.

accolay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #339 on: August 06, 2019, 08:18:05 PM »
Well, guess what.  Highway and road improvement taxes, such as gas taxes, usually pass with substantial majorities.

Word? You're definitely not from Minnesota.

ysette9

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I remember being an exchange student in French and feeling like true freedom was the ability to go anywhere you wanted to simply by walking out your front door. Buses are clean, frequent, reliable, and go everywhere. Any place that isn’t a total cow farm in the country is accessible by trains that are way faster and better on all levels than anything I’ve seen in the states. I went wherever I wanted whenever I wanted at a relatively affordable rate (thanks to student discounts!) and never once had to think about where to park a car. The only issue I had was when I shut the night club down in my little city and had to wait for the buses to restart at 5:00 in the morning. ;)

I think most people who have had the privilege of actually living in another developed country understand things like this, and that is a real cultural divide in the US.

The fact is, there are some things that other countries are legitimately shitloads better at.
And when I visited a friend who literally lived on a dairy farm I still was able to take the bus to her house from the train station. I knew she lived out in the sticks because the train didn’t go all the way there. :)

I agree with you: there are things that other countries do much better than the US. Some things we do better here, but it feels like the “true patriots” get totally blind to the possibility that we have stuff to learn from others.

Just Joe

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #341 on: August 07, 2019, 02:31:26 PM »
I spent time living in Europe during my military enlistment. Once getting over being a little timid about my safety I became very adventurous and tried to travel as much as I could for several years.

I came away thinking that EVERY American needs to travel out of the states. At that point in my life my travels had taken me to a few of our regional spots and the beach and that's about it.

Everything I knew about Europe came from a few Hollywood spy movies and the evening news about terrorists. This was back in the 1980s.

Sometimes I get the impression that there is an effort in our culture to make us Americans afraid of the rest of the world. That's stupid. I think it holds us back.

I very much wish he had the train service and bike infrastructure here that I've seen in other parts of the world.


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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #342 on: August 09, 2019, 08:07:27 AM »
http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-city-council-committee-votes-to-ban-new-drive-through-facilities/513519562/

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With a unanimous committee vote Thursday, the Minneapolis City Council moved one step closer to banning new drive-through facilities at fast-food restaurants, banks and other businesses.

If approved by the full council Aug. 8, Minneapolis would likely become the first U.S. city of its size to ban drive-throughs, according to city planners.

partgypsy

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I remember being an exchange student in French and feeling like true freedom was the ability to go anywhere you wanted to simply by walking out your front door. Buses are clean, frequent reliable and go everywhere. Any place that isn’t a total cow farm in the country is accessible by trains that are way faster and better on all levels than anything I’ve seen in the states. I went wherever I wanted whenever I wanted at a relatively affordable rate (thanks to student discounts!) and never once had to think about where to park a car. The only issue I had was when I shut the night club down in my little city and had to wait for the buses to restart at 5:00 in the morning. ;)

This is SO true. I didn't get my driver's licence until late in life, and only started driving in earnest about 3 years ago. It was such a sense of freedom when I traveled in Europe and other than your bag on your back you could go anywhere, and not be dependent on a car. I do have a car now (and 2 kids who need lots of driving about) and a car is necessary here but I kind of resent it. 

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #344 on: August 09, 2019, 11:21:48 AM »
http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-city-council-committee-votes-to-ban-new-drive-through-facilities/513519562/

Quote
With a unanimous committee vote Thursday, the Minneapolis City Council moved one step closer to banning new drive-through facilities at fast-food restaurants, banks and other businesses.

If approved by the full council Aug. 8, Minneapolis would likely become the first U.S. city of its size to ban drive-throughs, according to city planners.

Go Minneapolis.  I think the more cities like Minneapolis and Portland work to build environments friendly to humans instead of cars, the more other cities will see the benefits and change their ways. 

GodlessCommie

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #345 on: August 09, 2019, 02:37:45 PM »
It's amusing to see die-hard suburbanites being so defensive about an alternative that doesn't affect them directly.

People of Minneapolis think it is a good idea - why spend time and mental energy convincing others that they face an impending doom? Wish them well! Cities, like states, are laboratories of democracy. Let them run their experiments and learn what works.

The stereotypes about public transportation, and cities in general, are just ridiculous.

I never feel freer than when I could move around without a car.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #346 on: August 12, 2019, 07:57:42 AM »
http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-city-council-committee-votes-to-ban-new-drive-through-facilities/513519562/

Quote
With a unanimous committee vote Thursday, the Minneapolis City Council moved one step closer to banning new drive-through facilities at fast-food restaurants, banks and other businesses.

If approved by the full council Aug. 8, Minneapolis would likely become the first U.S. city of its size to ban drive-throughs, according to city planners.

Go Minneapolis.  I think the more cities like Minneapolis and Portland work to build environments friendly to humans instead of cars, the more other cities will see the benefits and change their ways.

I've heard zero pushback against this proposal.  I don't think there's many people who think that what the city really needs is more junky infrastructure where people idle along in their cars in order to shove a thousand empty calories a pop into their faces.  At the least this move adds a little friction to the calorie delivery system, while marginally lowering emissions and disincentivizing building the empty Pizza Huts of the next generation.

MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #347 on: August 12, 2019, 08:12:17 PM »
I've heard a lot of criticism from disabled friends. And that is 100% fair criticism.

But I'd still prefer to design cities not be be car centric.

Kris

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #348 on: August 12, 2019, 08:40:07 PM »
I've heard a lot of criticism from disabled friends. And that is 100% fair criticism.

But I'd still prefer to design cities not be be car centric.

Agreed. There are definitely ways to make this work for disabled people. We were in Montreal last winter, and it was a model of how cities like MPLS should figure their shit out.

merula

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #349 on: August 13, 2019, 06:49:53 AM »
I've heard a lot of criticism from disabled friends. And that is 100% fair criticism.

But I'd still prefer to design cities not be be car centric.

Just one anecdote, but my physically disabled husband is thrilled about the ban and wishes it would come to St. Paul. And not just because it would make his headache around Carbucks2.0 go away.