Author Topic: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")  (Read 50311 times)

expatartist

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #250 on: June 22, 2019, 05:04:24 AM »
I love public transport. Road rage is impossible to sustain when your neighbor is mere inches away and you're not encased in tons of steel. As of this summer, all public transport in Luxembourg will be free https://www.archdaily.com/908252/luxembourg-becomes-first-country-to-make-all-public-transit-free

Hula Hoop

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #251 on: June 22, 2019, 06:25:30 AM »
We couldn't stand the city life, too many bums with needles in the arm, nice places to visit on occasion but no place to raise the kids. To each his own.
And I couldn't stand suburban life, nice place to drive through and get a cheap hotel though.

Which one of us is right?

Same here. You couldn't pay me to live in the suburbs or raise my kids there. I grew up in 1970s NYC and currently live car free in apartment in the center of another city.  I've lived in a SFH in the suburbs briefly as a teen and HATED it.  I would never bring up my children in an environment like that. No racial or economic diversity, people with tons of money and values to match and tons of drugs.  The kids I knew growing up in NYC didn't use drugs because a) there had less money and b) there's nothing like seeing drug dealers and pathetic junkies in your neighborhood to drive home the idea that drugs = bad and you'd better study hard.

Anyway if you like the suburbs then more power to you.  The millions of people paying top dollar to live in my hometown don't seem to agree with you but that's fine as everyone is different.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #252 on: June 22, 2019, 11:02:55 PM »
There was a woman yelling incoherently on the Seattle light rail this afternoon.  Made for an uncomfortable trip.  No one wants to get involved so we all had to put up with her outbursts.  Maybe the light rail needs a guard button we can press so security can come and throw disruptives out.

KBecks

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2019, 08:00:09 AM »
Anyway if you like the suburbs then more power to you.  The millions of people paying top dollar to live in my hometown don't seem to agree with you but that's fine as everyone is different.

It's great that everyone gets to make their own choices on this.  We're happy in a third ring suburb, mid-sized house that was a great deal, and I can walk to the library or park, or even the grocery store if I want to.  It's 20-30 minutes to downtown of a mid-size city with all the amenities and the metro area is around 1.5 million, and it's pretty darn affordable right here. Our only public transportation is the bus, but because I've arranged my life within a few miles of home, there's not much need to take it. 

There are many places for people to choose to live, isn't freedom grand?

bacchi

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #254 on: June 23, 2019, 10:31:44 AM »
Anyway if you like the suburbs then more power to you.  The millions of people paying top dollar to live in my hometown don't seem to agree with you but that's fine as everyone is different.

It's great that everyone gets to make their own choices on this.  We're happy in a third ring suburb, mid-sized house that was a great deal, and I can walk to the library or park, or even the grocery store if I want to.  It's 20-30 minutes to downtown of a mid-size city with all the amenities and the metro area is around 1.5 million, and it's pretty darn affordable right here. Our only public transportation is the bus, but because I've arranged my life within a few miles of home, there's not much need to take it. 

There are many places for people to choose to live, isn't freedom grand?

There's some seminal book about cities that discusses this and I think it was mentioned above as well.

Cities with sub-downtowns, with shopping and parks and libraries nearby, work better than cities with one downtown and suburbs. Transit centers connect the sub-downtowns and the main downtown. The main idea is that it gets people out of their cars for trips to the grocery store and school (though people still seem to drive 4 blocks to drop their kids off at school).

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #255 on: June 23, 2019, 10:35:42 AM »

There are many places for people to choose to live, isn't freedom grand?

Indeed it is.

Choice is the concomitant of liberty.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #256 on: June 23, 2019, 03:53:34 PM »

There are many places for people to choose to live, isn't freedom grand?

Indeed it is.

Choice is the concomitant of liberty.

Yep - freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.  Certain posters on this thread need to realize that, surprise, everyone is different and chooses to live differently.  There is no need to put down others' choices or attribute the same choices and tastes to everyone in a certain demographic.

Cassie

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #257 on: June 24, 2019, 09:39:33 AM »
Also different places work for different seasons of your life. 

pudding

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #258 on: June 24, 2019, 10:21:36 AM »
I think something similar happened here in Vancouver B.C. last year.

In most areas of the city you can now build a duplex, each side of the duplex can have a lock off rental suite.

So you have 4 units on one lot. Lots here are usually 33 feet wide x 110 to 125 deep.

There was a lot of hand wringing about it, but so far only a handful of builders even built one.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/vancouver-s-new-duplex-rules-explained-1.4831741

Adam Zapple

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #259 on: June 25, 2019, 07:33:09 AM »

There are many places for people to choose to live, isn't freedom grand?

Indeed it is.

Choice is the concomitant of liberty.

Yep - freedom of choice is a wonderful thing.  Certain posters on this thread need to realize that, surprise, everyone is different and chooses to live differently.  There is no need to put down others' choices or attribute the same choices and tastes to everyone in a certain demographic.

Really?  I thought 20-something year olds invented living in cities.  :)

KBecks

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #260 on: June 25, 2019, 08:02:40 AM »
I was listening to an interview with the CEO of Upwork yesterday and it's interesting that their perspective is to to have more and more people work remotely (this serves their platform, of course).  But also with videoconferencing (I am invested in Zoom), there may be less need to be in the city with the high property expenses, etc.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #261 on: June 25, 2019, 08:18:17 AM »
I was listening to an interview with the CEO of Upwork yesterday and it's interesting that their perspective is to to have more and more people work remotely (this serves their platform, of course).  But also with videoconferencing (I am invested in Zoom), there may be less need to be in the city with the high property expenses, etc.

Ten years ago as many professional jobs were becoming fully remote I thought there was going to be a rush of people moving to beautiful spots in the mountains, on the coasts, or in other areas of the world altogether.  While a few people have certainly gone that route, the trend has been toward greater density rather than less.  It's a bit of a weird dynamic: the less people need to live in close proximity to one another, the more they seem to want to live together.

We know a couple who are both fully remote.  They're very well compensated, and they could live anywhere in the world as long as they're available during the American work day.  Nevertheless, they live about a mile from the corporate headquarters they used to go to every day and work from home.  They're in a very high tax suburb.  They stay because of family, school districts, culture, amenities, and momentum.  The place they formerly needed to live for work turned out to be the place they want to live even when all the options are open.

I suspect that for lots of people, we go down employment paths in pursuit of a whole basket of goods that include compensation, but also location and implied lifestyle.  Maybe eventually the work and the pay will be decoupled from everything else, but if we're headed in that direction it seems to be happening slowly.

Kris

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #262 on: June 25, 2019, 08:42:41 AM »
I was listening to an interview with the CEO of Upwork yesterday and it's interesting that their perspective is to to have more and more people work remotely (this serves their platform, of course).  But also with videoconferencing (I am invested in Zoom), there may be less need to be in the city with the high property expenses, etc.

Ten years ago as many professional jobs were becoming fully remote I thought there was going to be a rush of people moving to beautiful spots in the mountains, on the coasts, or in other areas of the world altogether.  While a few people have certainly gone that route, the trend has been toward greater density rather than less.  It's a bit of a weird dynamic: the less people need to live in close proximity to one another, the more they seem to want to live together.

We know a couple who are both fully remote.  They're very well compensated, and they could live anywhere in the world as long as they're available during the American work day.  Nevertheless, they live about a mile from the corporate headquarters they used to go to every day and work from home.  They're in a very high tax suburb.  They stay because of family, school districts, culture, amenities, and momentum.  The place they formerly needed to live for work turned out to be the place they want to live even when all the options are open.

I suspect that for lots of people, we go down employment paths in pursuit of a whole basket of goods that include compensation, but also location and implied lifestyle.  Maybe eventually the work and the pay will be decoupled from everything else, but if we're headed in that direction it seems to be happening slowly.

Agreed. I am fully remote. My husband is retired.

We live in the middle of our city. Because it's what we prefer.

mm1970

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #263 on: June 25, 2019, 10:27:41 AM »
I was listening to an interview with the CEO of Upwork yesterday and it's interesting that their perspective is to to have more and more people work remotely (this serves their platform, of course).  But also with videoconferencing (I am invested in Zoom), there may be less need to be in the city with the high property expenses, etc.

Ten years ago as many professional jobs were becoming fully remote I thought there was going to be a rush of people moving to beautiful spots in the mountains, on the coasts, or in other areas of the world altogether.  While a few people have certainly gone that route, the trend has been toward greater density rather than less.  It's a bit of a weird dynamic: the less people need to live in close proximity to one another, the more they seem to want to live together.

We know a couple who are both fully remote.  They're very well compensated, and they could live anywhere in the world as long as they're available during the American work day.  Nevertheless, they live about a mile from the corporate headquarters they used to go to every day and work from home.  They're in a very high tax suburb.  They stay because of family, school districts, culture, amenities, and momentum.  The place they formerly needed to live for work turned out to be the place they want to live even when all the options are open.

I suspect that for lots of people, we go down employment paths in pursuit of a whole basket of goods that include compensation, but also location and implied lifestyle.  Maybe eventually the work and the pay will be decoupled from everything else, but if we're headed in that direction it seems to be happening slowly.
unless you are an extreme introvert, I think that being fully remote might be very isolating.  So I can see why being fully remote living in a remote mountain town might not work for all but a small subset of people.

I love working from home about half days, because my house is dead silent and I can get WAY more done.  I've been doing that part of the time this summer.  But I couldn't be fully remote.

accolay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #264 on: July 15, 2019, 11:25:14 PM »
There was a woman yelling incoherently on the Seattle light rail this afternoon.  Made for an uncomfortable trip.  No one wants to get involved so we all had to put up with her outbursts.  Maybe the light rail needs a guard button we can press so security can come and throw disruptives out.

Minneapolis LRT has intercom police buttons installed in the cars.

I think the future will make mcmansions either living spaces for entire extended families, or the new flop houses for our time. Millenials by and large don't want them, as far as I have read.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:01:26 AM by accolay »

partgypsy

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #265 on: July 16, 2019, 05:57:38 AM »


For the nightmare outcome of what you propose, check out Spartana's thread on her neighbor that is considering selling, if it's still around.  Yeah, I really want to live in that neighborhood...
There are a few differences between my old hood and the OP.

First it wasn't in a big city but a suburban SFH neighborhood about 50 miles from LA.

Second there was no public transit except slow local buses. The closest train station, Amtrack, was about 20 miles away. So most everyone had cars and commuted by car making parking in Suburban SFH  neighborhoods extremely tight.

Third it wasn't so much about ADUs or small expansions to individual homes for added space or rentals,  most homes including mine had some kind of added living space (I had a converted garage that I re-converted to a garage after I bought the place,) it was about gentrification by building ginormous mcmansions plus ADUs on small lots that were extremely out of character for the old, small, single story houses in the tract. And while there was BIG concern amongst the homeowners in the hood that multi-family dwelling units in the guise of giant SFHs with tons of people residing there were living in the mcmansions, they would have been equally upset if it was just Scrooge McDuck living alone in the 5000 sf house with his money - and Huey, Lewy, and Dewy slumming in the 800 sf ADU. The behemoths being built are massive.

Fourth it wasn't a "rich white people" issue since 95% of the people were lower middle or working class Asian Americans/ immigrants (I was probably the sole white person along with a few Hispanic and other POC).  Most already lived in larger expanded family groups.

 SO it was more about the change of character of the hood, building mcmansions that dwarfed the 1000 -1500 sf.single story houses, and both gentrification and making SFHs unaffordable as well as possiblly being used as AirBNBs,  shared student housing "dorm" rooms or a monastary for the local Buddhist monks. All of which are common there but aren't a legal part of SFH (plus one small single story ADU) zoning laws.

While I personally don't have a problem with ADUs I don't think large multi-family housing should be built in an area zoned for SFHs. Especially if there is no infrastructure to support multiple cars/parking if needed and there is no avcess to decent public transportation.

ETA I'll try to post a photo of the current house build on my other thread. It now has a giant (gun?) turret on top of the 35 foot high roof that's bigger than most small bedrooms and at least 10 feet tall. Perhaps it's Scrooge McDucks counting room or maybe a place to put a disco ball for the 50 or so AirBNB guests who will be throwing a party there ;-).

This is a good point. It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #266 on: July 16, 2019, 07:49:37 AM »
This is a bit of inside Minneapolis baseball, but it takes NIMBYism to a new level. 

The city proposed traffic-calming and diverting devices for a parkway, and the neighborhood showed up in force to speak out against any change: https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2019/07/after-outcry-committee-pauses-plan-to-alter-vehicle-traffic-on-minnehaha-parkway/

In what world do people protest efforts to reduce commuter traffic speeds and volumes in their own neighborhood?

J Boogie

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #267 on: July 16, 2019, 09:43:16 AM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 09:47:22 AM by J Boogie »

EvenSteven

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #268 on: July 16, 2019, 10:12:27 AM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

I grew up in this exact area, and my first job lo those many years ago was at the Saint Paul Tennis Club. I grew up across the street from a row of 5 duplexes and some of my best friends growing up lived there. Some of them were even non-homogenous. I should look them up and see what they're up to. Probably defecating on the light rail.

Kris

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #269 on: July 16, 2019, 10:31:17 AM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

I grew up in this exact area, and my first job lo those many years ago was at the Saint Paul Tennis Club. I grew up across the street from a row of 5 duplexes and some of my best friends growing up lived there. Some of them were even non-homogenous. I should look them up and see what they're up to. Probably defecating on the light rail.

Wow. That's...

A pretty revealing statement. Sheesh.

I live in the same area right now. My husband grew up there/here in the 60s and early 70s.

I agree with JBoogie about it. It's definitely the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. I hope to stay here as long as I possibly can, and will likely only leave when I can no longer live independently.


partgypsy

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #270 on: July 16, 2019, 10:39:50 AM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws. Do you think that all happened in a vacumn? And your experience with mcmansions in MN may be very different than say Spartana's experience with McMansions in CA. Also I don't know where you visited in Chicago but there are a lot of livable neighborhoods in Chicago. It's a big town.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:45:08 AM by partgypsy »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #271 on: July 16, 2019, 11:51:42 AM »
Required off-street parking is a subsidy to drivers, at the expense of non-drivers. The whole point of these policies is to keep the on-street parking free and plentiful. To achieve this policy goal, denser development cannot add any net new cars to the on-street parking situation. Building the parking is a necessary but insufficient condition for meeting this goal. The residents also need to choose to actually use it. For this to happen when there's free street parking nearby, the off-street parking needs to also be given away to residents for free, or nearly free.

The problem with this is that off-street parking is expensive to build. If the residents of each apartment in your building all own exactly the same number of cars per apartment, this isn't a big deal. The cost gets baked into the rent and everyone ends up paying their fair share. If some residents own more cars than others, the cost is still baked into the apartment rent, but this time the people with fewer cars are paying for garage spaces their neighbors are using.

This is exactly backwards! If we want to reduce traffic and carbon dioxide emissions we need to give people financial incentives to reduce their car ownership. Instead we have a system where the express goal is to set the market price of car storage as close to $0 as possible, spreading the infrastructure costs out equally among everyone whether they own a car or not.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws.

My idea of a commonsense parking law would be pretty similar to what Japan does: if you want to own a car, you need to prove that you have a place (off the public streets) to store it at night. Street parking, where it even exists, is for short-term use only. Cars parked on the street overnight are towed.

What could be more commonsense than that? For any other type of property I might want to own, it's up to me to find a place to store it. I wouldn't expect to be able to store it on public land, and I certainly wouldn't expect storage to be given away for free by the city. Why should cars be an exception? Why should our zoning codes be in the business of forecasting exactly how much parking the occupants of a building might need? Why not let the building owners figure this out for themselves?

I think this system puts the incentives in a much better place. Want to live with a car? Fine! Find a house with a garage. Nobody is stopping home builders from including as many garage spaces as they like. Want to live without a car? Great! You'll save money by getting a home without a garage you don't need.

Now, I don't think it's practical or desirable to implement full-on overnight parking bans on our streets in the US. Our existing streets are designed with some parking in mind, and many existing homes are occupied by people who have come to rely on that. However I do think that going forward we need to recognize that storing your car on the public streets for free is not a human right.

Charging a market-clearing price for overnight parking permits is what I would suggest for any street where the on-street parking fills up. This would help keep the space available for those who have fewer alternatives, as it would create an incentive for people to use garages and driveways they already own instead of the possibly more convenient street parking. It would also create incentives for people to create more off-street parking on lots where there's room for it to be done cheaply. Do this and we'll gradually transition to a system where the amount you pay for parking (whether on-street or off-street) is pretty close to the amount it costs to build and maintain a parking space. Seems fair to me.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #272 on: July 16, 2019, 11:52:34 AM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws. Do you think that all happened in a vacumn? And your experience with mcmansions in MN may be very different than say Spartana's experience with McMansions in CA. Also I don't know where you visited in Chicago but there are a lot of livable neighborhoods in Chicago. It's a big town.

I don't think we're in disagreement on the whole - I was just disagreeing specifically with your claim that zoning for multifamily in a SFH neighborhood will cause crowding and parking issues. The permits I mentioned wouldn't be necessary if it wasn't for a nearby retail street. My point is that many SFT neighborhoods are completely capable of absorbing and even benefiting from multifamily (increased revenue that gets spent on parks, police, public works, etc). But I agree that zoning and policy are extremely important to getting it right. For example I'd hate to see vinyl clad suburban style multifamily buildings pop in my neighborhood. And the parking restrictions are extremely important as well.

And regarding mcmansions, almost by definition my experience with them would be extremely similar to anyone else's. Otherwise we'd just call them mansions. But given the sheer size, even if they occupy almost the entire lot, the length of the lot will be enough to accommodate 3 parked cars at a minimum and often as many as 5 or 6 along the front curb.

Chicago, you're right - Though I've stayed in many neighborhoods there, I'm going purely on anecdotal accounts (and my own need to arrive before everyone gets back from work so I can park near my host's apt). All of my friends and acquaintances left the city when they had kids. Most of the ones I know from the area were raised in the suburbs. Upper middle class folks can probably afford the nicer, safer neighborhoods for their kids, and lower income parents probably can't afford the homes in the suburbs and/or the commute to their city jobs. That's why I am singing the praises of Minneapolis and St. Paul which can be ideal for middle class folks to raise families within city limits.


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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #273 on: July 16, 2019, 12:08:14 PM »
"Required off-street parking is a subsidy to drivers, at the expense of non-drivers." 

Even if I agreed with this statement, I would point out that a lot of things government does are subsidies to one group at the expense of others.  Schools are a subsidy for parents of school aged children.  The County hospital is a subsidy for people than can't afford emergency medical care.  And so on.  We subsidize things that are for the common good, in the eyes of the voters.

The reality is most people want their cars and want to drive.  The minority of people that dislike this are trying to impose their values on the majority that don't agree.  All those people that vote for more money for public transit do so because they hope that others will use public transit and clear the roads for them to use.  They would not use it themselves.  Taking away parking does not incentivize the use of public transit.  It just forces the people that live there to park on the street a little farther away.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #274 on: July 16, 2019, 12:21:58 PM »
My idea of a commonsense parking law would be pretty similar to what Japan does: if you want to own a car, you need to prove that you have a place (off the public streets) to store it at night. Street parking, where it even exists, is for short-term use only. Cars parked on the street overnight are towed.

What could be more commonsense than that? For any other type of property I might want to own, it's up to me to find a place to store it. I wouldn't expect to be able to store it on public land, and I certainly wouldn't expect storage to be given away for free by the city. Why should cars be an exception? Why should our zoning codes be in the business of forecasting exactly how much parking the occupants of a building might need? Why not let the building owners figure this out for themselves?

I agree with the sort of libertarian argument you're making in theory, but I can't help but consider the wasted value of the streets to accommodate vehicles. We're already building them wide enough to allow parking during the day.

Allowing overnight parking, and then allowing daily visitors to use the spots left vacant makes good efficient use of space. Requiring all this extra space which will be empty half of the time is not commonsense to me at all.

It makes perfect sense the city allows this space to be utilized for free in many instances as it indirectly helps generate tax revenue. I wouldn't argue for the city to spend a bunch on dedicated free parking lots, but unless it's a problem, street parking might as well be utilized or metered - whichever is most beneficial for the city.


roomtempmayo

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #275 on: July 16, 2019, 12:32:54 PM »

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

----

That's why I am singing the praises of Minneapolis and St. Paul which can be ideal for middle class folks to raise families within city limits.

No doubt Crocus Hill is a great neighborhood, but it's not cheap.  The SFHs around 977 Goodrich on the market right now are listed at $580-975k.  That's not exactly a middle class neighborhood in St. Paul.

However, those housing prices do seem to show that multi-unit rentals can exist side by side with pretty high dollar SFHs without driving down property prices.  SFHs and multi-family units aren't pure substitutes for one another, they're parallel markets.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 12:40:03 PM by caleb »

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #276 on: July 16, 2019, 12:33:32 PM »
Taking away parking does not incentivize the use of public transit.  It just forces the people that live there to park on the street a little farther away.

But that's how humans work. You make that walk long enough, and people will either use public transit or go somewhere else.

Just as adding lanes and parking induces demand, removing them reduces it (because it becomes sufficiently unpleasant that many non-locals no longer find it worthwhile with the hassle of traffic and parking).

And, not to be mean, but many neighborhood residents are happier when there are less suburbanites visiting on weekend nights. For example, many in NE mpls fear that they will become the next uptown mpls. Uptown has a bunch of newly installed parking lots and attracts, for example, bachelorette parties and yuppie crowds, whereas NE has always been a little saltier, grittier, and dive-bar centric.  But lately it's become more and more popular in a mainstream way, attracting yoga studios and 3rd wave coffee shops left and right.


roomtempmayo

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #277 on: July 16, 2019, 12:45:44 PM »
We subsidize things that are for the common good, in the eyes of the voters.

I don't think I've ever heard a voter make the case that their private automobile use serves the common good.

Mostly, it seems that folks don't want to talk or think about the amount of money we're spending on cars and car infrastructure because it's pretty hard to justify using any words we want to say out loud.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #278 on: July 16, 2019, 12:47:32 PM »

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

----

That's why I am singing the praises of Minneapolis and St. Paul which can be ideal for middle class folks to raise families within city limits.

No doubt Crocus Hill is a great neighborhood.  The SFHs around 977 Goodrich on the market right now are listed at $580-975k.  That's not exactly a middle class neighborhood in St. Paul.

However, those housing prices do seem to show that multi-unit rentals can exist side by side with pretty high dollar SFHs without driving down property prices.  SFHs and multi-family units aren't pure substitutes for one another, they're parallel markets.

True, it's not middle class. I'd say overall there are many nice, safe neighborhoods in St. Paul with homes between 200-300k. However I don't think any of those neighborhoods have multi family housing scattered throughout. Maybe Goodrich is a model that can be replicated, or maybe it's an anomaly that most modern day zoning would not allow to be replicated.


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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #279 on: July 16, 2019, 12:57:29 PM »
This is exactly backwards! If we want to reduce traffic and carbon dioxide emissions we need to give people financial incentives to reduce their car ownership. Instead we have a system where the express goal is to set the market price of car storage as close to $0 as possible, spreading the infrastructure costs out equally among everyone whether they own a car or not.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws.

My idea of a commonsense parking law would be pretty similar to what Japan does: if you want to own a car, you need to prove that you have a place (off the public streets) to store it at night. Street parking, where it even exists, is for short-term use only. Cars parked on the street overnight are towed.

What could be more commonsense than that? For any other type of property I might want to own, it's up to me to find a place to store it. I wouldn't expect to be able to store it on public land, and I certainly wouldn't expect storage to be given away for free by the city. Why should cars be an exception? Why should our zoning codes be in the business of forecasting exactly how much parking the occupants of a building might need? Why not let the building owners figure this out for themselves?

I think this system puts the incentives in a much better place. Want to live with a car? Fine! Find a house with a garage. Nobody is stopping home builders from including as many garage spaces as they like. Want to live without a car? Great! You'll save money by getting a home without a garage you don't need.

Now, I don't think it's practical or desirable to implement full-on overnight parking bans on our streets in the US. Our existing streets are designed with some parking in mind, and many existing homes are occupied by people who have come to rely on that. However I do think that going forward we need to recognize that storing your car on the public streets for free is not a human right.

Charging a market-clearing price for overnight parking permits is what I would suggest for any street where the on-street parking fills up. This would help keep the space available for those who have fewer alternatives, as it would create an incentive for people to use garages and driveways they already own instead of the possibly more convenient street parking. It would also create incentives for people to create more off-street parking on lots where there's room for it to be done cheaply. Do this and we'll gradually transition to a system where the amount you pay for parking (whether on-street or off-street) is pretty close to the amount it costs to build and maintain a parking space. Seems fair to me.
I agree, we need to eliminate free on street parking for residents! Perhaps require a market rate permit for any vehicle parked more than x nights on the same block within a month (have a few nights free to accommodate short term overnight visitors). Parking enforcement could drive the streets with a license plate scanner each night and record the location and license plate of each car parked on the streets. A computer could then automatically flag violators and dispatch the towing enforcement.

"Required off-street parking is a subsidy to drivers, at the expense of non-drivers." 

Even if I agreed with this statement, I would point out that a lot of things government does are subsidies to one group at the expense of others.  Schools are a subsidy for parents of school aged children.  The County hospital is a subsidy for people than can't afford emergency medical care.  And so on.  We subsidize things that are for the common good, in the eyes of the voters.

The reality is most people want their cars and want to drive.  The minority of people that dislike this are trying to impose their values on the majority that don't agree.  All those people that vote for more money for public transit do so because they hope that others will use public transit and clear the roads for them to use.  They would not use it themselves.  Taking away parking does not incentivize the use of public transit.  It just forces the people that live there to park on the street a little farther away.
Generally public education and health services are supported by a majority of people who don't use them. They feel that these are basic needs that everyone should have access to.

Virtually all public automotive infrastructure (increased highway capacity, parking) is demanded by a majority who expect to directly benefit from it at no direct cost.

Personally I think property owners should pay property taxes sufficient to maintain one traffic lane and sidewalk along the frontage that they use to access their property. Selling parking permits could pay to add parking lanes. Additional traffic lanes should be paid for by fuel taxes or usage fees.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #280 on: July 16, 2019, 01:01:59 PM »
True, it's not middle class. I'd say overall there are many nice, safe neighborhoods in St. Paul with homes between 200-300k. However I don't think any of those neighborhoods have multi family housing scattered throughout. Maybe Goodrich is a model that can be replicated, or maybe it's an anomaly that most modern day zoning would not allow to be replicated.
I'm guessing that a large part of the value is from how close it is to the city center (short commutes), but by adding density, mixed use may be bringing value because the population can support more nearby amenities as well. Modern zoning certainly is a problem in a lot of cities for developing such mixed neighborhoods.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #281 on: July 16, 2019, 01:13:29 PM »
"Required off-street parking is a subsidy to drivers, at the expense of non-drivers." 

Even if I agreed with this statement...

This is a matter of fact, not opinion. Parking spaces cost money to build up front. This is a fact. Property owners incur ongoing costs in the form of maintenance and property tax on the portion of their property that is used for parking. This is a fact. Someone is paying this cost. If the parking cost is not paid directly by the people doing the parking, then it must necessarily be paid out of other revenue that comes into the property. In the case of an apartment building, this means it's rolled into the rent, paid by every renter whether they use the parking or not. Again, this is a fact.

Quote
...I would point out that a lot of things government does are subsidies to one group at the expense of others.  Schools are a subsidy for parents of school aged children.  The County hospital is a subsidy for people than can't afford emergency medical care.  And so on.  We subsidize things that are for the common good, in the eyes of the voters.

Sure, this is true. A lot of voters like "free" parking, and vote to keep it that way in spite of the negative effects it has on our housing prices and traffic levels and greenhouse gas emissions. In most cases that's because they haven't stopped to think about it in this way. I'd like that to change.

My idea of a commonsense parking law would be pretty similar to what Japan does: if you want to own a car, you need to prove that you have a place (off the public streets) to store it at night. Street parking, where it even exists, is for short-term use only. Cars parked on the street overnight are towed.

What could be more commonsense than that? For any other type of property I might want to own, it's up to me to find a place to store it. I wouldn't expect to be able to store it on public land, and I certainly wouldn't expect storage to be given away for free by the city. Why should cars be an exception? Why should our zoning codes be in the business of forecasting exactly how much parking the occupants of a building might need? Why not let the building owners figure this out for themselves?

I agree with the sort of libertarian argument you're making in theory, but I can't help but consider the wasted value of the streets to accommodate vehicles. We're already building them wide enough to allow parking during the day.

Allowing overnight parking, and then allowing daily visitors to use the spots left vacant makes good efficient use of space. Requiring all this extra space which will be empty half of the time is not commonsense to me at all.

It makes perfect sense the city allows this space to be utilized for free in many instances as it indirectly helps generate tax revenue. I wouldn't argue for the city to spend a bunch on dedicated free parking lots, but unless it's a problem, street parking might as well be utilized or metered - whichever is most beneficial for the city.

If you read down in my post, I point out that I do not support an outright overnight parking ban in America. It worked fine for Japan because it was implemented before they constructed as much automotive infrastructure, so they didn't build much street parking in the first place. We have the existing infrastructure for street parking, so we might as well use it (at least in places where bike lanes, transit lanes, more traffic lanes, etc. aren't seen as a better use for that space). At the same time, I don't see any virtue in policies meant to prop up the free, abundant nature of this parking. I support moving the general expectation in the direction of the Japanese policy, where people who own cars expect to pay a fair price to store them.

Once the required parking construction policy is gone, it's likely that the free street parking will become overcrowded in many neighborhoods. At that point something must be done to allocate that parking. I propose using market-based pricing. It seems like the way that will lead to the best outcomes overall, gradually shifting the incentives such that property owners will generally build the parking they think they'll need even when there's no zoning code forcing them to do so.


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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #282 on: July 16, 2019, 02:21:49 PM »
It is all about good zoning. It's fine to have multi family housing, but if you are doing that on the same neighborhood, same footprint as sfh, there will be crowding and parking problems. Apartments are required to provide a certain amount of parking for residents, but a mcmansion that is turned into multi unit or family residences will not have that.

I actually disagree on both counts.

I previously mentioned my St. Paul neighborhood (Between St. Clair and Grand, between Dale and Lexington) features a good mix of SFH and multifamily. There were no required parking provisions in place as the housing stock is over 100 years old. Due to Grand being a retail street, the few blocks south of Grand feature parking strictly for residents who receive street parking permits so they don't have to compete with those parking to visit Grand ave. (they have designated parking options that are usually less than full unless there's some type of event).

I walk these streets all the time and there aren't any parking/crowding problems. Perhaps areas like Chicago where there are these urban residential street parking struggles are simply too dense (buildings a little too close together, apt complexes a little too large) to allow for the same quality of life (no parking struggles, more outdoor space than just a small balcony).

I think family friendly residential urban density finds its happy medium in this section of St. Paul, specifically Goodrich Ave.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/977+Goodrich+Ave,+St+Paul,+MN+55105/@44.9378326,-93.1412971,3a,75y,354.4h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QhwwylClUu8ibAQ9zgR3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x87f62a5e212ed2f1:0x79b39fcce874ef9d!8m2!3d44.9380851!4d-93.1413055

I guess the reason I'm really promoting this is because it's the type of neighborhood you could spend your whole life in. Big, ultra dense cities are great for college grads but most end up in the suburbs, often with awful commutes, once they have a couple kids. Some do their best to embrace city living with young kids, but man it's great having a backyard (even a small one) with toddlers.


And then I disagree that McMansions will fail to offer enough parking. They typically have 3 garage spots, a driveway big enough to fit 2 cars and still allow ingress and egress for the 3 garage stalls, and even if there wasn't, the streets are completely empty in these areas and I would guess you could park another 5 cars along the curb of one McMansion.

What you are talking about is exactly about developing commonsense zoning, building as well as parking laws. Do you think that all happened in a vacumn? And your experience with mcmansions in MN may be very different than say Spartana's experience with McMansions in CA. Also I don't know where you visited in Chicago but there are a lot of livable neighborhoods in Chicago. It's a big town.



And regarding mcmansions, almost by definition my experience with them would be extremely similar to anyone else's. Otherwise we'd just call them mansions. But given the sheer size, even if they occupy almost the entire lot, the length of the lot will be enough to accommodate 3 parked cars at a minimum and often as many as 5 or 6 along the front curb.
I think your experience is greatly different from mine - and probably different from a lot of densely populated areas of Calif. The mcmansions plus ADUs going up in my old area are on relatively small lots that generally only have one street parking spot in front of the house. This is the case of the 9 bedroom/9 bath house plus ADU being built in my old hood I mentioned in another thread. This is the case with ALL the houses in my former tract of SFHs as well as in the surrounding area. Some don't have any street parking at all.

So in an area with no public transit and SFHs of any size being used as multi family dwellings you'll have many more cars than an average driveway and garage can hold. Codes require a 5 bedroom or larger house to have a 3 car garage and 3 spots on the driveway plus one parking spot for an ADU. Sounds like enough but there are likely to be 18 plus adult people living in that house...legally...and illegally most garages are rented out to several people too. Not everyone will have a car but it will still be way way way to many to support street parking. Especially when this kind of living situation is common to most houses here - even the original 1000 sf 3 bedroom 2 bath houses with 2 car garages, 2 car driveway and one spot of street parking in front of the house generally have 8 - 10 adult people (with cars) living in them. Now multiply that by almost every small house in the tract and building a few mcmansions plus ADUs on the same size lots and renting to 18 plus people creates havoc in an area zoned for SFH. Now if a developer wants to buy up all the tract houses and build multi family residences with appropriate parking I'm cool with that.

Well, this sounds pretty crazy. I agree what you're referring to is a shitshow, but those don't sound like McMansions to me.  It sounds like developers are building de facto multi family housing under the guise of a luxury home to satisfy market demand as well as zoning regulations. To be honest, I am extremely curious to see these buildings and how people use them. Do you have any links you could share?

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #283 on: July 16, 2019, 02:31:32 PM »
One thing that is important to note (and that I feel like no one ever talks about) is that the Mpls 2040 plan does not change the requirements for max impermeable sq footage. So yes you can have up to 3 units, but they aren't going to to cover the whole lot.

I do not know if there are rules about how high you can go. Does anyone else? I couldn't find it with a quick Google.

I love 1 block outside NE in a first ring suburb (I actually have Mpls on two sides, and I am walking distance from two public golf courses, what a bloody waste of a good park!). I'm thrilled about it. I am not sure the details of my zoning but there are multiple SFH's converted to duplexes in my hood. Typically someone finishes the basement and rents it out. So far nothing terrible has happened except that a family is able to afford the neighborhood. Which, you know, now that I think about it, is only terrible if you hate poor people.

I could see doing it with our house as we age, and/or as we house our adult child with disabilities. Our basement is actually at street level (tuck under garage) and if we travel more in retirement we could live in a basement apartment and rent the upstairs. We could also build a ADU where a garage could go (almost every house has a 2 car garage in the yard, so it would match the hood perfectly). This would keep our son nearby but in his own space. Suddenly now we have 3 units on our lot, using the exact sq footage of every other house, and looking aesthetically the same.

I see that happening much more than developers building- as outlined earlier, the math for building a triplex isn't really there. But spending $$$ to improve your own house, then eventually moving on and listing a duplex/triplex for sale- that I can see happening.

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #284 on: July 16, 2019, 05:18:16 PM »
I do not know if there are rules about how high you can go. Does anyone else? I couldn't find it with a quick Google.
Looks like 2 stories (plus habitable space in attic):

https://library.municode.com/mn/minneapolis/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=MICOOR_TIT20ZOCO_CH546REDI_ARTIIR1SIMIDI_546.240BUBURE
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The maximum height for all single- or two-family dwellings located in the R1 District shall be two and one-half (2.5) stories or twenty-eight (28) feet, whichever is less. The highest point of the roof of a single- or two-family dwelling with a gable, hip, or gambrel roof shall not exceed thirty-three (33) feet.
Quote
Notwithstanding the height limitations of this chapter, the maximum height of single- and two-family dwellings may be increased to thirty-five (35) feet when the established height of a minimum of fifty (50) percent of the single- and two-family dwellings within one hundred (100) feet of the subject site exceed the maximum height. The highest point of a gable, hip, or gambrel roof shall not exceed forty (40) feet.

Similar language for all zones up to and including R3.

Little Nell

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #285 on: July 16, 2019, 05:23:34 PM »
In the "old days," there was a lot more public civility than there is today.  No one spit or urinated on the bus or train.  In the "old days," there were no druggies, alcoholics, or mentally ill folks on public transit or occupying the stops and stations. ]

lol
In the old days there were spittoons in railway cars.

Another Reader

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #286 on: July 16, 2019, 08:22:28 PM »
"Sure, this is true. A lot of voters like "free" parking, and vote to keep it that way in spite of the negative effects it has on our housing prices and traffic levels and greenhouse gas emissions. In most cases that's because they haven't stopped to think about it in this way. I'd like that to change."

Well, you represent a minority of mostly urban and young people, so it's not likely to change.  The car is what made the middle class what it is in the post-WWII world.  Few people want to give that up.  Parking is a subsidized public amenity because people want parking and are willing to pay higher taxes to get it. 

In case you don't follow amenity values in housing prices, rents are higher for houses, condos and apartments with off street parking.  Sales prices for houses and condos with off street parking are also higher, a lot higher if the parking is in a garage.  People are willing to pay up to park their private cars convenient to their residence.  That's an indisputable fact, the numbers don't lie.  And how are those middle class shopping areas faring in areas that are not easily accessible by car and don't provide parking compared to the suburbs? Sure, some destination entertainment areas and local needs based shopping survive, but the demand is generally fairly anemic. 

People in the suburbs want to get in, get their goods and services, get out, and get on with their lives.  They have money and they spend it.  And they will not allow you to cram them into places where they have to put up with drug addicts, alcoholics, criminals, and mentally ill people roaming their neighborhoods and threatening them and their children.  They pay higher taxes and drive longer distances not to have to deal with this and are just fine with the trade-off.

MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #287 on: July 17, 2019, 07:02:50 AM »
I do not know if there are rules about how high you can go. Does anyone else? I couldn't find it with a quick Google.
Looks like 2 stories (plus habitable space in attic):

https://library.municode.com/mn/minneapolis/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=MICOOR_TIT20ZOCO_CH546REDI_ARTIIR1SIMIDI_546.240BUBURE
Quote
The maximum height for all single- or two-family dwellings located in the R1 District shall be two and one-half (2.5) stories or twenty-eight (28) feet, whichever is less. The highest point of the roof of a single- or two-family dwelling with a gable, hip, or gambrel roof shall not exceed thirty-three (33) feet.
Quote
Notwithstanding the height limitations of this chapter, the maximum height of single- and two-family dwellings may be increased to thirty-five (35) feet when the established height of a minimum of fifty (50) percent of the single- and two-family dwellings within one hundred (100) feet of the subject site exceed the maximum height. The highest point of a gable, hip, or gambrel roof shall not exceed forty (40) feet.

Similar language for all zones up to and including R3.

So you can have three apartments, but the total building size is held to the same size requirement as a SFH. Jesus Christ what is wrong with people!

J Boogie

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #288 on: July 17, 2019, 07:56:52 AM »
So you can have three apartments, but the total building size is held to the same size requirement as a SFH. Jesus Christ what is wrong with people!

That's actually pretty reasonable and smart. Ensures continuity of the character of the neighborhood while allowing for these existing structures to better serve the changing demographics (less and smaller families) of the city.

It also dead-ends the specious arguments made by those talking about bulldozers and no more sunshine.

dogboyslim

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #289 on: July 17, 2019, 08:13:19 AM »
...Someone hunting for a job who has to choose between opportunities working in San Francisco or Fargo, more often than not they're going to choose San Francisco.

For the record, I'd pick Fargo, its orders of magnitude nicer than San Francisco IMO.  Then again, I hate people.  I do like individuals, but people suck.

FIPurpose

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #290 on: July 17, 2019, 08:21:39 AM »
...Someone hunting for a job who has to choose between opportunities working in San Francisco or Fargo, more often than not they're going to choose San Francisco.

For the record, I'd pick Fargo, its orders of magnitude nicer than San Francisco IMO.  Then again, I hate people.  I do like individuals, but people suck.

I visited Fargo for the first time this summer. It is a lot nicer than most people imagine it. Buuut, San Fran is also a very nice place (I mean as long as you don't have to commute). Depending on your job field, Fargo might not make sense.

Kris

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #291 on: July 17, 2019, 09:43:34 AM »
...Someone hunting for a job who has to choose between opportunities working in San Francisco or Fargo, more often than not they're going to choose San Francisco.

For the record, I'd pick Fargo, its orders of magnitude nicer than San Francisco IMO.  Then again, I hate people.  I do like individuals, but people suck.

I visited Fargo for the first time this summer. It is a lot nicer than most people imagine it. Buuut, San Fran is also a very nice place (I mean as long as you don't have to commute). Depending on your job field, Fargo might not make sense.

I agree. Fargo is not as bad as you might think. It's mostly fine, and even charming in some places.

Visiting in the summer is one thing, though. In the winter... no thank you.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #292 on: July 17, 2019, 10:00:35 AM »
...Someone hunting for a job who has to choose between opportunities working in San Francisco or Fargo, more often than not they're going to choose San Francisco.

For the record, I'd pick Fargo, its orders of magnitude nicer than San Francisco IMO.  Then again, I hate people.  I do like individuals, but people suck.

I visited Fargo for the first time this summer. It is a lot nicer than most people imagine it. Buuut, San Fran is also a very nice place (I mean as long as you don't have to commute). Depending on your job field, Fargo might not make sense.

I agree. Fargo is not as bad as you might think. It's mostly fine, and even charming in some places.

Visiting in the summer is one thing, though. In the winter... no thank you.
I guess this would be the point where I mention I've also visited Fargo and agree it's not terrible. I do stand by my guess that if you took a decent random sample of Americans and offered them jobs in both places, at salaries of the local market rates, more would choose San Francisco.

MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #293 on: July 17, 2019, 10:23:43 AM »
I'm not so sure- I'm bet most people would rather live in San Fran if they could afford it, but not at market rates for income and housing.

I'd move in a second if I could do it with a 30 minutes of Elsa commute and could house a family of 4 in non-squalor conditions... but I don't think I could even on an UMC engineer salary.

So I'd grudgingly pick Fargo.

ETA: I just checked Zillow for a 3 bedroom apartment in SF, and the cheapest rent on the front page was 4500 a month, more than my take home pay. I looked at houses for sale in the Palo Alto and mountain view area and I found a crappy looking townhouse for 1 million and an estimated mortgage of 5k a month.  So I guess H and I could both work and we could be house poor and just pray we didn't lose our shirts if the housing market collapsed. Because last I looked salaries for engineers were about the same for us both places and we'd just be praying we made it rich on stock options.  Hahahaha guess I'm moving to Fargo.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 10:33:22 AM by MayDay »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #294 on: July 17, 2019, 10:43:06 AM »
Totally depends on your career of course, but just looking up software engineers I'm seeing data showing they make $42k more salary (plus $18k more in bonus and profit sharing) in San Francisco than Fargo. That's a difference of $5,000/month.

This goes back to the point I was making a month ago, which is that companies keep expanding in San Francisco in spite of the astronomical cost of paying people to work there. If they thought they could find enough talented people in Fargo to meet their business needs, why in the world wouldn't they go that route? It would be so much cheaper. Microsoft actually has a reasonably large development office in Fargo, and I'm sure they would rather bring a new hire into that office at Fargo prices than in Redmond at Seattle-area prices. The reality, however, is that there aren't enough people willing to work in Fargo. The Redmond location is still way larger than the Fargo location, and this won't be changing in the foreseeable future because most of the workers aren't willing to move to North Dakota.

robartsd

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #295 on: July 17, 2019, 11:24:40 AM »
Totally depends on your career of course, but just looking up software engineers I'm seeing data showing they make $42k more salary (plus $18k more in bonus and profit sharing) in San Francisco than Fargo. That's a difference of $5,000/month.

This goes back to the point I was making a month ago, which is that companies keep expanding in San Francisco in spite of the astronomical cost of paying people to work there. If they thought they could find enough talented people in Fargo to meet their business needs, why in the world wouldn't they go that route? It would be so much cheaper. Microsoft actually has a reasonably large development office in Fargo, and I'm sure they would rather bring a new hire into that office at Fargo prices than in Redmond at Seattle-area prices. The reality, however, is that there aren't enough people willing to work in Fargo. The Redmond location is still way larger than the Fargo location, and this won't be changing in the foreseeable future because most of the workers aren't willing to move to North Dakota.
At least not at the prices they seem willing to pay in North Dakota. Sure, if you offer me SF or Fargo with enough difference in salary to pay for the difference in cost of housing, I'm choosing SF; but cut the salary difference and I start to wonder if the winters in Fargo are worth the extra money I have. By the time you're willing to pay the same in Fargo as SF, I'll choose Fargo - probably spending 10-20% of the difference in cost of living on tropical vacations in winter and enjoying long summer evenings after work in Fargo.

MayDay

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #296 on: July 17, 2019, 01:48:39 PM »
 Not as familiar with software engineer salaries, bit for a chemical engineer, I found salaries to be quite close. And a 5k salary difference is still way less than 5k after taxes- that extra income is getting taxes at ~50%. Now if you had 2 software engineers I agree that you come out even, and in that case, sure, is pick SF. Which.....  Is exactly what families of 2 software engineers are doing. But pretty much every other occupation (since pretty much ever other occupation pays less) is going to be better off in Fargo. And that is why SF is overrun with tech bros.

The other exception to the two software engineer scenario is that you start young when you are ok with just renting a room- then I'm sure the math works out differently.

CSuzette

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #297 on: July 18, 2019, 03:53:16 AM »
In the late 90s I used to commute by bus from the Eastside to DT Seattle. I was once hit on the top of my head with a man’s fist. I had to sit next to a man making some weird rhythmic movement with his hand on his leg and then some drunk vomited so much that when the bus would slow the liquid was coming down the aisle. I hated that commute and could not wait to quit that job. It used to be dangerous to be on the street after 5 pm on the weekends in Seattle so I would make sure to leave The Bon before that time. Now when I visit I don’t bother going near DT. I am sure it is even worse.

ministashy

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #298 on: July 18, 2019, 04:49:21 AM »
In the late 90s I used to commute by bus from the Eastside to DT Seattle. I was once hit on the top of my head with a man’s fist. I had to sit next to a man making some weird rhythmic movement with his hand on his leg and then some drunk vomited so much that when the bus would slow the liquid was coming down the aisle. I hated that commute and could not wait to quit that job. It used to be dangerous to be on the street after 5 pm on the weekends in Seattle so I would make sure to leave The Bon before that time. Now when I visit I don’t bother going near DT. I am sure it is even worse.

Oh look, it's someone else who hasn't lived in Seattle for 20-30 years who thinks the city is a degenerate hellhole because they had a couple bad commutes on transit!  *shakes head*  If I go to New York and happen to get mugged, does that mean that the city is a dangerous 'Mad Max' style dystopian mess and that no one sane should ever live there? 

Also, for the record, I used to live in Fargo.  (full disclosure, I moved away to Seattle in 2001, so possibly things have changed.)  It was certainly the best city in North Dakota.  That said, you would have to pay me a whole LOT to go back.  Not only do you have the lousy weather and the bugs, but also a relative dearth of anything resembling diversity or big city culture (non-chain restaurants, nightspots, indie anything, cultural festivals, etc were pretty much nonexistant.  And this is in a city with 2 universities, a Lutheran private college, and a tech college (if you count Moorhead, just across the river), so there was no shortage of young college folks who would have patronized such things.  But if you wanted any of that, you had to drive to Minneapolis. 

If you're a WASP, heavily churchy and don't mind potlucks and chain franchises (and bad weather), Fargo would be a great place for you.  But there's a reason I stay in Seattle, even though it would be much cheaper to live in Fargo.

merula

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Re: Minneapolis 2040, and the blowback ("There goes the neighborhood!")
« Reply #299 on: July 18, 2019, 08:19:44 AM »


Also, for the record, I used to live in Fargo.  (full disclosure, I moved away to Seattle in 2001, so possibly things have changed.)  It was certainly the best city in North Dakota.  That said, you would have to pay me a whole LOT to go back.  Not only do you have the lousy weather and the bugs, but also a relative dearth of anything resembling diversity or big city culture (non-chain restaurants, nightspots, indie anything, cultural festivals, etc were pretty much nonexistant.  And this is in a city with 2 universities, a Lutheran private college, and a tech college (if you count Moorhead, just across the river), so there was no shortage of young college folks who would have patronized such things.  But if you wanted any of that, you had to drive to Minneapolis. 

I mean, Duluth or St. Cloud would give you those things with a shorter drive, albeit in smaller quantities than Minneapolis.