Author Topic: Middle Class Tax Trap?  (Read 68762 times)

Sid888

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #200 on: February 02, 2015, 09:04:24 AM »
Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous.

Finally, an actual strawman. 

I never said "independence from a functioning government".  I said "reliance on government handouts" goes against my definition of FI.  I think it is very likely (or at least certainly possible) SS and other government programs will at least be means tested, or have some of their benefits cut (or both), in the future.  If such changes made it so one needed to work again, how can one be considered FI?

Social security is not a handout.

Ah, quibbling...That's true, replace "handout" with "entitlement" and go again.

Are you arguing that roads are handouts?

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #201 on: February 02, 2015, 09:06:43 AM »
Quote
Quote
Quote

Are you telling me that you don't use roads?

Marshawn Lynch should have plowed it in from 1 yard line but since the Seahawks were there ona very luck catch, I hope that Pete C. doesn't get grilled to badly today and forever...

I think that play call will be questioned till the end of time.  I would like to see stats on interceptions on short slant routes vs fumbles on short runs -- i.e. was it really that dumb of a play call? Whats the worst that can happen -- yeah an interception, but if they ran it, beast mode could have fumbled, or the hand-off botched, or whatever. 

I'm telling you roads have nothing to do with Financial Independence as a concept and the elements that define that concept.  We are not talking about the value of government or even taxes anymore.  We are talking about a concept.  What does it mean to be financially independent.  I say one is not FI if one relies on money from an outside source.  Countering with "yeah but you need roads" has nothing to do with the definition of when one is financially independent. 

If I were saying "government is useless and we don't need it", the counterpoint "but wait don't you need some or all of the things government provides, l like roads" makes sense.

I just don't see a difference between the government providing and maintaining roads and providing and maintaining social security.  It's basically, the same thing.  Both are very useful in giving me the means to FIRE and I don't plan to do without either one in retirement.

Haha ok.  Yes because people need roads reliance on SS doesn't constitute a dependence in the definition of FI.  Congratulations, you found a way to be financially independent while maintaining a massive financial dependency.

Thank you, the difference between you and I is that you're living in denial of your dependence on government for financial security

Not all.  I recognize I am dependent on government for all sorts of things.  The difference between us is when I consider the semantics of FI, I want to be as "I" as possible, and certainly to the point where the disappearance or alteration of a government entitlement program will affect me as little as possible, and hopefully not at all. 

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #202 on: February 02, 2015, 09:08:25 AM »

Quote
Are you arguing that roads are handouts?
Huh?

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #203 on: February 02, 2015, 09:47:36 AM »
Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous.

Finally, an actual strawman. 

I never said "independence from a functioning government".  I said "reliance on government handouts" goes against my definition of FI.  I think it is very likely (or at least certainly possible) SS and other government programs will at least be means tested, or have some of their benefits cut (or both), in the future.  If such changes made it so one needed to work again, how can one be considered FI?

The false equivalence is being drawn between basic government functions (i.e., roads) and social security.  I think it's completely defensible to base  FI on a figure that does not include social security, particularly for younger people.  I plan to get $0 from it.  I do not base my FI planning on the possibility that basic infrastructure is not being provided for.  I also don't base FI on the possibility that tax rates will go up to 90% on accumulated wealth or something of that nature.  There are only so many "what ifs" a person can plan for.

starguru

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #204 on: February 02, 2015, 10:00:23 AM »
Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous.

Finally, an actual strawman. 

I never said "independence from a functioning government".  I said "reliance on government handouts" goes against my definition of FI.  I think it is very likely (or at least certainly possible) SS and other government programs will at least be means tested, or have some of their benefits cut (or both), in the future.  If such changes made it so one needed to work again, how can one be considered FI?

The false equivalence is being drawn between basic government functions (i.e., roads) and social security.  I think it's completely defensible to base  FI on a figure that does not include social security, particularly for younger people.  I plan to get $0 from it.  I do not base my FI planning on the possibility that basic infrastructure is not being provided for.  I also don't base FI on the possibility that tax rates will go up to 90% on accumulated wealth or something of that nature.  There are only so many "what ifs" a person can plan for.

I agree with this 100%.  How is what you wrote in any way against the assertion that the semantics of term FI, specifically the "I" part of it,  it is at direct odds with receiving SS-like payouts from the government.   Your

"Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous."

post seemed to be a direct counterargument of the statement I made previous to it.  Perhaps I misinterpreted.

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #205 on: February 02, 2015, 10:47:31 AM »
Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous.

Finally, an actual strawman. 

I never said "independence from a functioning government".  I said "reliance on government handouts" goes against my definition of FI.  I think it is very likely (or at least certainly possible) SS and other government programs will at least be means tested, or have some of their benefits cut (or both), in the future.  If such changes made it so one needed to work again, how can one be considered FI?

The false equivalence is being drawn between basic government functions (i.e., roads) and social security.  I think it's completely defensible to base  FI on a figure that does not include social security, particularly for younger people.  I plan to get $0 from it.  I do not base my FI planning on the possibility that basic infrastructure is not being provided for.  I also don't base FI on the possibility that tax rates will go up to 90% on accumulated wealth or something of that nature.  There are only so many "what ifs" a person can plan for.

I agree with this 100%.  How is what you wrote in any way against the assertion that the semantics of term FI, specifically the "I" part of it,  it is at direct odds with receiving SS-like payouts from the government.   Your

"Requiring independence from a functioning government as an element of financial independence would un-FIRE the vast majority of FIRE'd people.  Be realistic.  Trying to plan around the end of days is ridiculous."

post seemed to be a direct counterargument of the statement I made previous to it.  Perhaps I misinterpreted.

Think there was just a crossed wire.  "Functioning government" to me means the roads, basic infrastructure, etc., not "social security doesn't get dramatically changed/reduced".

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #206 on: February 02, 2015, 12:53:54 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.
Fruitvale station & a Brompton, you got a house for 2x income:
http://www.trulia.com/property/3146992788-2047-36th-Ave-Oakland-CA-94601

Free bullets!

capital

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #207 on: February 02, 2015, 07:49:33 PM »
I get SO tired of this narrative that people in expensive houses must live in McMansions in gated communities.  I work for a nonprofit in San Francisco proper, helping first time homebuyers get ready to purchase.  So basically, worst job ever cause all I do is break hearts.  I don't think anyone who doesn't live here can truly understand how awful our housing market is.  A small, run down house in a neighborhood with bad schools and poor infrastructure will go for $700,000.  Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get a parking spot for 100k, maybe, there are no houses even close to that price range whatsoever. (Unless you qualify for Below Market Rate, which we don't, and is beyond competitive).  You could save $ by moving an hour away but then enjoy your monster commute stealing 2 hours a day and $500/month in gas and tolls or whatever.  (not mustachian, people!) Salaries are higher here, but the housing market is completely unnattainable to all but the highest earners.  I have a colleague who has been making offers on 600k homes in the east bay (again, that's pretty cheap here) for a year, and hasn't gotten an offer accepted yet.  So even if you want to over-pay for something, good luck to you.

I would gladly live in a fixer-upper house in a fairly ugly, dull neighborhood if it meant I could own something.  We can't. At all. We make 150k/yr.  This isn't a complaint, life is pretty rainbows and butterflies in our long-term rent-controlled apartment, but not everyone here is so lucky.
Fruitvale station & a Brompton, you got a house for 2x income:
http://www.trulia.com/property/3146992788-2047-36th-Ave-Oakland-CA-94601

Free bullets!

A house that cheap leaves a lot of room in the budget to take a car if you need to get home late. It's also lot harder to build a rail line than it is to lower a crime rate.

Tabaxus

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #208 on: February 03, 2015, 12:34:05 PM »
Jesus, $370k for a 1,000 sq ft house in an awful part of Oakland.  Deliver me from ever living in California.

Goldielocks

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #209 on: February 03, 2015, 02:42:55 PM »
I favor raising taxes on poor people because they can't afford lawyers. That's probably easier than taxing rich people because of aforementioned lawyers.

But if they are taxed too much, they can't pay on account of being poor and become tax cheat criminals.  Plus they out breed the rich leading to more and more poor people.  Lets sterilize the poor so that we can finally win the war on poverty when they die out.

You are missing it -- a tiny tax on millions of people would generate a lot of money.     So tax the poor, just not too much, only say, $100 per year each?   ("Poor" stated tongue in cheek to mean lowest 40% of the tax base?)

DarinC

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DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #211 on: February 05, 2015, 10:10:11 PM »
Don't feel like looking up, but from what I recall, almost no people actually paid that top tax rate of 90%.  It's annoying when people try to make current rates sound low by referring to that.

Each person will likely feel rates are too high if they think the govt is spending lots of $$ on things they do not agree with and is beyond the Fed's responsibility (me) but would be willing to pay a little more if they agree with policies.

Generally, though, it seems additional spending is never matched by increased taxes or spending cuts in other areas.  So, debt continues to rise and, if the Fed chooses to 'pay' for it by devaluing the $, it hurts almost everyone.

I'd choose to lower debt by decreased spending.  If the govt were a Mustachian, that's what it would decide to do.  ; )
I'm not sure if that's true, but I'm not inclined to look it up either. In any event, those real marginal tax rates today would increase revenues enough to wipe out 70% of the deficit. I'm sure we can find plenty of pork to push us into a surplus and start paying down the national debt.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 10:44:13 PM by DarinC »

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #212 on: February 05, 2015, 10:14:31 PM »
Look, I love ad hominems and straw men as much as the next guy, but I appreciate well reasoned and well supported posts more.
You addressed neither 1, nor 2, nor 3. You're completely disregarding the circumstances surrounding this previous era that happened to have a set of tax rates that suit your preferred ideology. Not only does it have zero to do with today's world, it is 100% out of the question from a policy standpoint, so why is it even in discussion?
There wasn't much to constructively address. You made claims based on your preferred ideology without any quantitative support, and I replied from a position that's roughly opposite of yours using the same approach. GIGO and all that.

If you want to have a substantial discussion, with facts, figures, sources, criticism of those sources, etc... I'm down for that, but I'm not going to spend time debating opinions.

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #213 on: February 05, 2015, 10:38:14 PM »
This is not helpful.  You are throwing around so many general numbers and not laying out anything specific in 105.  I think you wrote raising the rate on 200k back to 92%, but I cant find any chart that indicates that would raise the required amount.  But you also talk about raising taxes on everyone, so Im not sure you intend for that 1 tax to take care of the entire sum.

I have looked at the charts you provided; for example this link

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data

Im not seeing anything that clearly lays out how much income remains above the top marginal rate limit, therefore cannot even begin to figure out how you are getting to 1.3 trillion, and who would pay what.

I strongly disagree with your confidence that people would just take it and keep working against higher taxes that reduces their equivalent $/hr to below minimum wage, once above the marginal rate, but we can just disagree on that.  This is never going to happen.

Regarding your general point though, that everyone should pay more regardless of what it costs them to address the debt/deficit, hey at least its more balanced than what a lot of others think.  No element of class warfare in this argument, just "we could address the debt with more taxes."  Certainly there is 1.3trillion to be had if you are willing to raise taxes, especially on everyone.
My numbers are accurate, not general, although not precise since I don't feel like drilling down into significant digits.

They're derived from my specifics for the marginal tax rate and the table from the tax policy and tax foundation websites. The chart where I calculated roughly how much revenue we would get by raising the marginal rate to 90% on any earnings above $200k is from the tax foundation site. I am also for raising taxes on everyone, but I didn't calculate the increases in receipts given a different set of brackets, although I think it would be interesting to do if I had the free time.

In terms of the tax foundation link, you can calculate the AGI per return of earners in the top N%, and get an accurate amount for how much income would fall above the $200k limit. Then you apply the higher marginal rate of 90% to that income above $200k and you get an accurate estimate of the increase in income taxes for the top N% if the top marginal rate were increased to 90% and the top bracket lowered to $200k.

People making $200k/year would never make minimum wage, at least not federal minimum wage. At worst, assuming they were hourly, their marginal income per hour would drop into the ~$10+/hour range, depending on their yearly salary. And in that case, I agreed, they wouldn't work more, and that's that. On the flip side, the work they do would still need to be done, so instead of paying one person $300k/year, a company might end up paying one personal $200k/year for part time work and another $100k/year for part time work. At the same time, this situation probably isn't common because most high earners are salary, and won't turn down higher pay even if they end up in a higher tax bracket. For them, it's better to get $160k earnings from a $300k salary than $150k in earnings from $200k in salary.

I'd like to think I'm fairly fiscally conservative and am definitely for less private pork (higher taxes) and less public pork (reducing spending and stringent auditing). It's not class warfare to state that many wealthy people do a great job at generating more wealth and a piss poor job at providing healthy economic growth and jobs.

If the wealthy can't or won't provide positive economic activity, I think the government should tax them at a higher rate and use that income to pay down debt and invest in effective (and thoroughly audited) public programs that benefit everyone.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 10:40:14 PM by DarinC »

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #214 on: February 05, 2015, 10:46:03 PM »
You are missing it -- a tiny tax on millions of people would generate a lot of money.     So tax the poor, just not too much, only say, $100 per year each?   ("Poor" stated tongue in cheek to mean lowest 40% of the tax base?)
It's a lot of money in the sense that a billions of dollars is a lot, but it wouldn't make an appreciable dent in the deficit, at least not compared to higher marginal rates on the wealthy. Can't get blood from a turnip...

Lifestyle Deflation

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #215 on: February 06, 2015, 12:59:17 AM »
Taxes suck! As a (currently) single, renting, man, I take home about 51% of my gross pay.

Granted I am in a higher tax bracket but I'm paying European levels of taxes for pretty much zero services here in the US.

NICE!

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #216 on: February 07, 2015, 04:09:01 AM »
Look, I love ad hominems and straw men as much as the next guy, but I appreciate well reasoned and well supported posts more.
You addressed neither 1, nor 2, nor 3. You're completely disregarding the circumstances surrounding this previous era that happened to have a set of tax rates that suit your preferred ideology. Not only does it have zero to do with today's world, it is 100% out of the question from a policy standpoint, so why is it even in discussion?
There wasn't much to constructively address. You made claims based on your preferred ideology without any quantitative support, and I replied from a position that's roughly opposite of yours using the same approach. GIGO and all that.

If you want to have a substantial discussion, with facts, figures, sources, criticism of those sources, etc... I'm down for that, but I'm not going to spend time debating opinions.

BS. 90% is confiscatory. Keep acting like you're not being intransigent by throwing out anachronisms that are unworkable today due to capital flight, tax avoidance and evasion strategies, and pure common sense. No one is going to vote for or implement your fringe ideas. At best you're tilting at windmills, at worst you're hiding behind condescending language to support your philosophy.

tl;dr if you propose radical shit, it is YOUR job to tell us why we should agree. ESPECIALLY when it is an old policy that existed in a completely different era. At least Picketty is honest enough to admit that his global wealth tax is a pipe dream.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 06:59:55 AM by NICE! »

DarinC

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #217 on: February 07, 2015, 01:39:00 PM »
Taxes suck! As a (currently) single, renting, man, I take home about 51% of my gross pay.

Granted I am in a higher tax bracket but I'm paying European levels of taxes for pretty much zero services here in the US.
Unless you don't use roads, public utilities, and could live in a banana republic style area w/o the need for police, military, or courts... Well, law really, you use more than zero services. If you've really made it ala this guy...

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/utah-caveman-quits-money/story?id=16273605

Congrats! Your stache is huge, and you shouldn't have to pay for services because you really don't use any.

lithy

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #218 on: February 07, 2015, 01:52:17 PM »
Why is it always roads that people bring up when people talk about not getting anything for their tax dollars?

Please, won't somebody think of the....roads.

http://www.tommullen.net/featured/chapter-three-who-will-build-the-roads-from-anti-libertarian-nonsense-the-ridiculous-arguments-for-government-control-of-everything/

Also, big lol's must be given for all the complaining about the SF housing market.

"Oh, I'm so helpless in NorCal making six figures and I'll never be able to afford a house.  Oh there are cheap houses in Oakland?  That must be a shitty school district and minorities probably live there, and be prepared to get murdered."

So many rivers are being cried for you.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 02:17:25 PM by lithy »

dragoncar

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #219 on: February 08, 2015, 03:46:16 PM »
Why is it always roads that people bring up when people talk about not getting anything for their tax dollars?


Uh... because roads are a very visible government service that everyone uses.

The White Coat Investor

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Re: Middle Class Tax Trap?
« Reply #220 on: February 09, 2015, 04:07:28 AM »
Me and the hubby's combined income is now at $233k.  Even though we are maxing out both of our 401k, so subtract $36k, we are phased out of most of the good tax deductions...ie Child Tax Credit, Roth IRA contributions, traditional IRA deductions, education credits, etc.  We have the mortgage interest deduction but we are just refinancing to a 15 year so that deduction will probably become less than the standard deduction next year.  We also put the max $5k into the Dependant Care FSA and some into the health care FSA, we don't have access to a HSA.  Is there anything else we can deduct to lower our MAGI?

I have considered just being a SAHM to lower our income but then we would be straining to make our mortgage since we live in a HCOL area.  It would be awesome if I could work part time but that's not an option at my current job.  Maybe a career change to a less stressful lower paying job might be an option at some point.  Or should I just suck it up and save as much as we can and then just FIRE earlier?  Anyone else in the same situation and just want to commiserate?

I know how you feel. I blogged about it recently here: [MOD EDIT: See signature for blog link.]

For those who are piling on, I also blogged here: [MOD EDIT: See signature for blog link.]

There are pluses and minuses both ways.

My wife doesn't work because after the additional costs and childcare and getting taxed on her teacher's salary at my doctor's tax rate, she'd only be making $2 an hour. Better to just volunteer her time when she feels like it (my kids's classes are the only kids in the district who get PE taught by a PE teacher) and pursue her other interests.

Moderators- if posting those links is too spammy, feel free to delete. [MOD EDIT: Okay.]
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:04:01 PM by arebelspy »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!