Author Topic: MFool article on income by age and sex  (Read 24101 times)

sol

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MFool article on income by age and sex
« on: March 02, 2015, 12:27:29 PM »
Source material:  http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/03/02/heres-how-much-the-typical-american-made-last-ye-2.aspx

There's not a ton of useful information here, but the comments are amusing as always.

One thing of note, this graph suggests that women stop increasing their salary beyond age 35.  The article sort of hand-wavingly dismisses this as something to do with child rearing, but it's not clear if these numbers are average for all women, including SAHM types, or if they're averages just for working women.  In which case child rearing shouldn't be relevant.


sbdebeste

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 12:41:48 PM »
There's definitely a lot to be asked here.

And there's an easy explanation for why women at the same salary have on average higher savings than men - they're older on average than men making the same amount, and have been saving longer.

Any more sensible conclusion should be drawn controlling for age. It's an especially egregious oversight given the raw data that the article is based on.

Zikoris

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 12:42:52 PM »
Source material:  http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/03/02/heres-how-much-the-typical-american-made-last-ye-2.aspx

There's not a ton of useful information here, but the comments are amusing as always.

One thing of note, this graph suggests that women stop increasing their salary beyond age 35.  The article sort of hand-wavingly dismisses this as something to do with child rearing, but it's not clear if these numbers are average for all women, including SAHM types, or if they're averages just for working women.  In which case child rearing shouldn't be relevant.

Child rearing is still relevant - working women with kids tend to to work less hours and make more family-friendly career choices, both of which affect earnings. Not that that's a bad thing, by any means - it leads to much higher quality of life, at the expense of a portion of one's potential money-earning.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 02:11:12 PM »
I recently saw somebody post up a list of about THIRTY sources that debunked the notion that women are paid less for equal work.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  It was a lot of information and from many sources, not just government, not just North America, not just university studies, etc.  Genuinely diverse sources.  The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men.  Still, I'll post it here if I can dig it up.  It was a boatload of data that seemed to support that pay is not related to gender.

I'll also drop this little bomb of darkness here: Men get killed in the workplace 11 times as often as women.  Where's the outcry for more women to be killed in the workplace?  Seems to me that we need to be seeing at least 11 times as many women getting killed at work in order to be equal to men.

KCM5

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 03:13:12 PM »
I imagine the maxing out at 35 aspect of wages for women has something to do with the fact that women are less likely to be managers and kind of stop climbing the ladder, so to speak. I mean, I'm probably going to max out at 35. I have no interest in moving up (datapoint of 1!).

Zikoris

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 03:15:21 PM »
On another note, as a woman I will definitely contribute to maintaining these statistics, maxing out my pay in my mid-late 30s, because I'll be retired after that :)

jmusic

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 03:27:04 PM »
I recently saw somebody post up a list of about THIRTY sources that debunked the notion that women are paid less for equal work.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  It was a lot of information and from many sources, not just government, not just North America, not just university studies, etc.  Genuinely diverse sources.  The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men.  Still, I'll post it here if I can dig it up.  It was a boatload of data that seemed to support that pay is not related to gender.

I'll also drop this little bomb of darkness here: Men get killed in the workplace 11 times as often as women.  Where's the outcry for more women to be killed in the workplace?  Seems to me that we need to be seeing at least 11 times as many women getting killed at work in order to be equal to men.

Based on my observations, I would totally agree with your first comment.  For equal work, women receive equal pay.  The point that others are making is that women tend to be OLDER than men in the "equal position." 

Regarding #2, that's probably due to a healthy dose of self-selection (women tend to avoid the types of careers that have greater risk of workplace injury/death).

yandz

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 04:04:19 PM »
Another way child rearing can impact the data - even if they are only counting "working" women vs. averaging all is that women often drop and reappear in the workforce to have said children.  If I have kids at 35 and stay at home with them for 5 years until they are in school and rejoin the working world at 40, I probably haven't advanced much in pay and may have gone backwards.

jmusic

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 04:43:49 PM »
Another way child rearing can impact the data - even if they are only counting "working" women vs. averaging all is that women often drop and reappear in the workforce to have said children.  If I have kids at 35 and stay at home with them for 5 years until they are in school and rejoin the working world at 40, I probably haven't advanced much in pay and may have gone backwards.

True.  This factor reflects the same "older in equal position" theory.  To me, it's one of the fallacies of the feminist movement; they claim that there's a pay gap, and while it's true that there is one, it's based on choices that people make (having a family being a perfectly valid one) and not due to intentional discrimination on the part of employers. 

Taking this thought process one step further, I would find it unreasonable for anyone to expect to earn the exact same salary after being out of the labor force for 5 years regardless of the reason why, due to skills being rusty, etc.  There are always exceptions though...


zinnie

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 05:13:48 PM »
Another way child rearing can impact the data - even if they are only counting "working" women vs. averaging all is that women often drop and reappear in the workforce to have said children.  If I have kids at 35 and stay at home with them for 5 years until they are in school and rejoin the working world at 40, I probably haven't advanced much in pay and may have gone backwards.

True.  This factor reflects the same "older in equal position" theory.  To me, it's one of the fallacies of the feminist movement; they claim that there's a pay gap, and while it's true that there is one, it's based on choices that people make (having a family being a perfectly valid one) and not due to intentional discrimination on the part of employers. 

Taking this thought process one step further, I would find it unreasonable for anyone to expect to earn the exact same salary after being out of the labor force for 5 years regardless of the reason why, due to skills being rusty, etc.  There are always exceptions though...



This. Some data I have looked at recently (sorry only half of it is sourced):

-Even when both parents are working full-time, women spend more time on housework and child rearing than men do.
-Among full-time workers, men work an average of 8.14 hours a day versus 7.75 hours for women (BLS, 2012a)
-Men tend to seek more money when beginning a family, whereas women often consider jobs that pay less to remain more flexible for children.
-On whether men and women get paid equal for the same work: the govt. of course loves citing that women make 77% of what men make for the same jobs, but there is so much more that goes in to it than just comparing salaries for the same positions. When you look at trends in cohorts there is actually a pretty significant shift towards women in many fields. For example when they compare male and female physicians--there are more older male physicians (with high salaries), but there are many more female medical school graduates now. A recent BLS survey that controlled for varied work environments and years of experience actually found that women earn 97% of what men earn (BLS, 2012b).

BLS. (2012a). American time use survey—2011 results. U.S. Department of Labor: Bureau of Labor Statistics. Retrieved from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/atus.pdf
BLS. (2012b). Highlights of women's earnings in 2011. U.S. Department of Labor: Bureau of Labor Statistics. Retrieved from http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2011.pdf

retireatbirth

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 06:01:51 PM »
I used to work a job where I statistically analyzed pay equality with regression models. It was the same technique the government would use if they had to scrutinize the company for discrimination.

The pay disparity, all else equal, is usually about 2-3% with some variation, but I think 7% was the most egregious I ever saw. These models usually explained about 90% of pay (R2). I always laugh when I hear the media talk about 20%+ disparities.

sol

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 07:53:12 PM »
I think the 20 percent disparities are just the result of different accounting methods.  It's easily that much if you count everyone of each gender.

The biggest residual pay gap isn't that women make less for the same work, it's that they hold lower paying job types.  And that is partly by choice, but also likely to be partly the result of discrimination. 

MrsPete

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 03:49:38 PM »
One thing of note, this graph suggests that women stop increasing their salary beyond age 35.
I can't speak to all jobs, but I can tell you that in my state the teacher's salary scale is designed to reward the younger, lower-paid teachers . . . and encourage the older, more experienced teachers to leave before they can max out /begin collecting their pensions.  The whole situation is quite clear:  They want to populate the schools with new, just-out-of-school teachers who will never earn tenure and never receive a pension.  They're not even subtle about it. 

Does this situation exist in other professions?  I have no idea. 
The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men. 
I totally believe that.  At least, it fits what I see in my own life.  Men tend to start working at a young age and work until retirement, occasionally blipping from one job to another.  Women, on the other hand, work, stop a while, whatever. 
-Even when both parents are working full-time, women spend more time on housework and child rearing than men do.
-Among full-time workers, men work an average of 8.14 hours a day versus 7.75 hours for women (BLS, 2012a)
-Men tend to seek more money when beginning a family, whereas women often consider jobs that pay less to remain more flexible for children.
I don't know if that's true for everyone, but this does fit my husband and me.


deborah

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 04:04:05 PM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

retireatbirth

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 04:20:20 PM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

That's terrible. Do you have a link to the report?

mm1970

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 05:22:26 PM »
I recently saw somebody post up a list of about THIRTY sources that debunked the notion that women are paid less for equal work.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  It was a lot of information and from many sources, not just government, not just North America, not just university studies, etc.  Genuinely diverse sources.  The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men.  Still, I'll post it here if I can dig it up.  It was a boatload of data that seemed to support that pay is not related to gender.

I'll also drop this little bomb of darkness here: Men get killed in the workplace 11 times as often as women.  Where's the outcry for more women to be killed in the workplace?  Seems to me that we need to be seeing at least 11 times as many women getting killed at work in order to be equal to men.
I can't speak for all women, or all jobs, but all data that I've seen indicates that women make around $0.90 to $0.97 on the male dollar for equal work/ job title/ experience.

In general, it appears to happen anywhere from right away (2 years into a career in engineering, for example), to "later" (age 30 and up).  Some of this is due to a natural bias towards women fighting for equality and promotions. We've all seen the articles - but there is also matching data - that suggests what "works" for men in asking for promotions and raises does not actually work for women in many (if not most) cases.

This is completely separate from the whole parenting aspect, and also includes child-free women.

Many people would consider 0.95 on the dollar "noise", but I can tell you that I personally wouldn't mind that extra $10 to $15k a year.  And yes, when I've asked for raises and promotions, I've been treated badly compared to male coworkers.

I assume it will eventually change, but it appears to be happening incredibly slowly.

Ynari

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2015, 06:00:29 PM »
I think mm1970 makes a good point.

Additionally, just because the pay gap can be linked to women's "choices", doesn't mean there isn't a problem.  Most companies offer maternity leave but not paternity leave - meaning, that even if both parents are entirely on board with having a baby and want a parent to stay home for a few months, the mother HAS to be the one to take extended time off of work.  The man doesn't have the same choice to take time off of work, and that is a problem.

Women often "choose" not to go into high paying fields because it's harder for them to do so than it would be for an equivalently-qualified man. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_science_major_everyone_gave.html  This article is written by a self-described asian male computer science major who had no prior experience in comp sci before university. He noticed women in his classes, having the same or even better background than he did, have to go the extra mile just to be considered not-entirely-incompetent, whereas he was always assumed to know enough and *belong*.  He didn't have the same pressure to "choose" another major. Fields do not equalize when you have a token masculine woman or token feminine man in an otherwise gender-dominated field.  Fields equalize when the average, generally competent individual does not face greater or lesser challenges than a similar person from the other group.

The "pay gap" doesn't become irrelevant just because it's 97 cents to the dollar and not 75 cents.  It's still relevant because, until the average woman is treated with the same respect as the average man, and the average man has the same opportunities to "choose" a life other than a life-long career, we don't really have equality.  We just have excuses.

deborah

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2015, 06:40:04 PM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

That's terrible. Do you have a link to the report?
Newspaper article: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/women-managers-paid-up-to-45-less-than-their-male-peers-new-data-20150217-13gx8t.html

Actual Report (WGEA is part of government, and the report has been sat on for a couple of months): https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/2013-14_summary_report_website.pdf

Zikoris

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2015, 08:19:00 PM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

Read the report - it's not comparing the exact same jobs. It's all full time women vs all full time men, no accounting for personal career choices (hours worked, gaps due to childrearing, years of experience, etc) and the categories cover a broad range of job titles - if they're genuinely comparing, say, female and male chemical engineers with the exact same background (i.e. neither of them had taken time off work to raise kids, and they worked in jobs comparable as far as things like weird hours, required travel, and number of hours), there's no indication of that.

deborah

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2015, 09:28:27 PM »
Sorry, that was the summary report released several months ago. Look at the data http://data.wgea.gov.au/ to get the direct comparisons - which are much worse the higher you go.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2015, 09:39:16 PM »
Well I never did find the link I was looking for, but Reddit's search did turn up the post below.  There's also a Wikipedia page dedicated to it which basically highlights that it's extremely hard to make direct comparisons because specific instances can be subject to small-sample problems and anecdotal occurrences, while large comparisons may have too many other variables at work to be truly comparable.  I suspect that as marriage and the birth rate continue to decline in America, we'll see more and more women who have full-time, no interruption careers, and as more women fill management roles and own their own businesses, things should level out... maybe.  On the other hand, women don't like to work for women, so it's tough to say where you go from here.  ???

Quote from: Reddit
The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors.

The Department of Labor recently funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination.

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it?

The Gender Pay Gap is a Complete Myth

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505125_162-28246928/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/

Gender pay gap is not what activists claim

http://wwww.examiner.com/x-22884-Canada-Politics-Examiner~y2010m2d22-Gender-pay-gap-is-not-what-activists-claim

Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/vickiwoods/7957186/Sorry-ladies-Im-not-worried-about-wage-gaps.html

Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal Pay

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22Sommers.html?_r=1&hp

The Wage Gap Myth

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_wage_gap_myth.html

Don’t Blame Discrimination for Gender Wage Gap

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html

The pay inequality myth: Women are more equal than you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa3pKN3XUKM&feature=youtu.be

Women Now a Majority in American Workplaces

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/06/business/economy/06women.html?_r=2

Women In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than Men

http://www.businessinsider.com/women-in-tech-make-more-money-and-land-better-jobs-than-men-2010-9

Female U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: study

www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedType=R

Female CEOs outearned men in 2009.

http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10630664

Women between ages 21 and 30 working full-time made 117% of men's wages.

www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn an average of $27,000 a year. That's 8% more than comparable men.

http://www.ksee24.com/news/local/Young-Women-Earn-More-159818705.html

Workplace Salaries: At Last, Women on Top

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463790770831192.html

The 15 Jobs Where Women Earn More Than Men

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/14/jobs-where-women-earn-more-than-men/

women aged between 22 and 29 earn over £10 per hour on average, compared to men their same age who earn just under this amount.

http://www.womenintechnology.co.uk/news/young-women-earn-more-than-men--news-800761492

Young women now earn more than men in UK

http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/10/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-in-uk/

This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, Ph.D., examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0752118220071107?feedTy

Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/03/15/optout.revolution/

This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home).

Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23413243

Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/06/13/dads.work/index.html

Research also shows that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-05-04-equal-parenting_N.htm

ABC News: “Is the Wage Gap Women’s Choice? Research Suggests Career Decisions, Not Sex Bias, Are at Root of Pay Disparity”

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/GiveMeABreak/story?id=797045&page=1&CMP=OTC-R

There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice

http://sify.com/news/women-stay-away-from-math-out-of-their-own-free-choice-news-scitech-kk1lubiiiee.html

Women In Science: No Discrimination, Says Cornell Study

http://www.science20.com/news_articles/women_science_no_discrimination_says_cornell_study-75984

Let’s be real about the lack of women in tech

http://www.businessinsider.com/lets-be-real-about-the-lack-of-women-in-tech-2010-10

Cressida

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2015, 10:11:53 PM »
Reddit's search did turn up the post below. 

[snipped long list of links with accompanying snarky comments]


So, whoever put this together clearly has an axe to grind, given the tone of the comments. They believe either that there is no wage gap, or that any wage gap that exists is women's fault. Therefore, even if there's a wage gap, no one should talk about it or bother trying to do anything about it.

I see this a lot. No one ever seems to look at it from the other side. If it's true that women are influenced by cultural expectations to work fewer hours/at less lucrative jobs/with more employment gaps/what have you than men are, then it is also true that men are influenced by cultural expectations to work more hours/at more lucrative jobs/more steadily/what have you than women are. One shouldn't be the standard, and neither should be identified with gender.

If society stopped having different expectations of the genders and treating them differently, any wage gap would go away by itself.

mrcheese

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2015, 11:00:33 PM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

I keep hearing this "Misogynist Government" idea - what exactly is it based on other than Abbott-bashing?
Anecdotal: As a young female, whenever I worked for men, I had no trouble in getting equal pay for equal work. Whenever I worked for women, I was not paid equally.  There is a lot of truth to the idea that women are horrible to work for - especially if you're younger/prettier/smarter/more qualified/have friends/seen as a threat in anyway.  You must be repressed and punished for daring to exist in your current form!

deborah

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2015, 11:22:17 PM »
No it isn't just "Abbott bashing". It is based upon a long line of incidents - although I must admit that Tony tends to put his foot in his mouth about all sorts of things. Do you really need anything more than the number of women in cabinet as an example (and his reasons, and his comment at the time about women knocking at the door)? You have obviously had a wonderful working life - I wish others were as lucky. It is really interesting the double standards that are applied especially to women managers.

sol

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2015, 11:38:41 PM »
There is a lot of truth to the idea that women are horrible to work for - especially if you're younger/prettier/smarter/more qualified/have friends/seen as a threat in anyway. 

I think it's possible to acknowledge the existence of a pay gap without having to blame any one group or gender for causing it.  I don't think anyone here suggested it was men who were solely responsible for the oppression of women, though that idea was certainly popular once upon a time.

The fact that women still make less than men, for any reason whatsoever including personal choices or other women, reflects that we still have gender inequality in the workplace.  No need to blame anyone in particular to see that it exists.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2015, 11:56:21 PM »
There is a lot of truth to the idea that women are horrible to work for - especially if you're younger/prettier/smarter/more qualified/have friends/seen as a threat in anyway.

[sigh] You might well have had bad female managers. That doesn't mean "women are horrible to work for." You'll need to bring a little more evidence besides "misogynist thoughts bouncing around in my brain" to prove the point you asserted.

sol

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2015, 12:05:10 AM »
[sigh] You might well have had bad female managers. That doesn't mean "women are horrible to work for."

Even if that were true, it would still be evidence of gender inequality in the workplace.  If an employee hates women bosses because they are women more than they hate male bosses who act the exact same way, isn't that still a workplace gender bias?  On the part of the employee?

Like I said, you don't need to blame anybody in particular to recognize these problems still exist. 

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2015, 12:20:14 AM »
Sorry, that was the summary report released several months ago. Look at the data http://data.wgea.gov.au/ to get the direct comparisons - which are much worse the higher you go.

It still doesn't compare apples to apples. It's still comparing full-time female workers to full-time male workers in broad fields without accounting for:

1. Actual hours worked (even among full-time workers, men work more hours)
2. Years of uninterrupted experience (i.e. women choosing to take time off to raise kids)
3. Other lifestyle choices women make that result in less money but a higher quality of life
4. Different educational choices

And so on. This has been well studied. Once everything measurable is factored in, that 20% drops down to 2%-3% really quickly (technically it reverses in some job markets, with young childless women outearning men), and that remaining portion could well be due to factors that are hard to measure rather than discrimination, such as women not negotiating salaries or pursuing promotions.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2015, 01:05:59 AM »
Sorry, it is people doing the same job full time at the same level - this gets rid of all the 4 variables you are noting. It is based upon reporting by the company itself - not on employee reporting.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2015, 05:56:43 AM »
Reddit's search did turn up the post below. 

[snipped long list of links with accompanying snarky comments]


So, whoever put this together clearly has an axe to grind, given the tone of the comments. They believe either that there is no wage gap, or that any wage gap that exists is women's fault. Therefore, even if there's a wage gap, no one should talk about it or bother trying to do anything about it.

I see this a lot. No one ever seems to look at it from the other side. If it's true that women are influenced by cultural expectations to work fewer hours/at less lucrative jobs/with more employment gaps/what have you than men are, then it is also true that men are influenced by cultural expectations to work more hours/at more lucrative jobs/more steadily/what have you than women are. One shouldn't be the standard, and neither should be identified with gender.

If society stopped having different expectations of the genders and treating them differently, any wage gap would go away by itself.


+1

I find it interesting that all the things women do that take them out of the workplace are regarded as a free-and-clear personal choice.  9/10, who's the SAHP?  Or who's the one that quits to take care of their own parents?   

Gender bias in society strongly influences these "choices." 

Anecdote:

DH (29 y/o) is a disabled vet, was told by his doctors he can no longer drive last summer.  There's also significant impact on his actual work day (falling asleep at bench, messing things up and having to rebuild them, dropping tools, etc etc).  So he resigned.

I'm still working on my education, but our plan immediately became that he would be a SAHD --just to dogs currently, but maybe kids, if we can work out better ways to treat or accommodate the disability.  We always knew I would eventually make more than he did, since my plan has always been to continue past my BS (was waffling between PhD/med/pharm, lol).  So this wasn't a *huge* departure for our life plan or whatever, and it actually makes things a lot easier because his work was in a very specialized technical field, as mine will be (settled on PhD), and the locations in which those fields overlap are like, 3 in the whole country.

We went to visit his parents for the holidays.  His mother cornered me while he was in the shower, and literally verbatim said, multiple times, "It's not natural or biblical for a man not to support his family."  She insisted that his neurological disability was all in his head, laziness, her fault for not raising him better (actually the accompanying depression about not being a perfect physical specimen is probably her fault so maybe that one's kind of right), etc etc etc.  I was naturally offended, for his sake and my own (don't need a man to provide for me, kthx) and called her out on it -- I said, "we've always known I would be the 'breadwinner' when I finished school, this isn't something I see as an issue." 

She called him a few weeks ago and said, "Well, I know your wife is new age and says it doesn't bother her, but providing for your family will improve your relationship dynamics.  Right now she has all the control."

Um, holy crap, lady.  That's not how my relationship works. 

-------------

End anecdote -- do you really think that my husband is the only guy who's had something like this happen to him?  He isn't.  "Personal choices" to remain in or leave the workforce are not truly personal.  Society places a ton of pressure on both men and women to perform their 'proper' gender roles (actually, I would argue, more on men -- "tomboys" are much more accepted than guys who display stereotypical femininity).  The wage gap is a symptom of this, and at least for me personally, the comparison between salaries of men and women in the same fields (and actually different fields, because these societal pressures will impact what field people choose in the first place), without controlling for things like time off to have a kid or individual pursuit of management roles, is actually significant.  It's an indicator of how much our society is pressuring individuals to conform to the roles we expect for their displayed gender, and a narrowing of that gap will indicate that we are becoming more accepting of actual personal choices.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 05:59:06 AM by caliq »

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2015, 06:34:52 AM »
"Personal choices" to remain in or leave the workforce are not truly personal.

Do you believe that biological differences exist between men and women? If so, do you believe that there is any possibility that innate biological differences between men and women could possibly cause women to - on average - be better suited as the primary child-rearing parent?

By the way, I'm sympathetic to the blowback you received from your mother-in-law for your family's choices. The dynamics of any single relationship are bound to be unique, and it's ignorant to assume that one should conform to societal norms simply for the sake of conformity. But I do believe that societal norms often come about for rational reasons, and I think that women are more often better-suited to the task of child-rearing than men.

To disclose, my wife does stay home with our two children, and I disagree with your statement that her decision to leave the workforce was not personal. Of course it was personal. If anything, she had to fight against the expectations of others to make that choice. I wasn't fully on board with it at first. Her parents thought she was wasting her degree (not sure why they cared, since they didn't pay for it). Her high school and college friends (all women) still give her grief for quitting and some have had the audacity to ask her what she does all day (spoiler alert: she's a hell of a lot busier than I am during the day).

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2015, 06:47:14 AM »
In Australia there has recently been mandatory reporting by companies of what they actually pay - men vs women. Women are disadvantaged more than 20% in exactly the same jobs. Especially in traditionally female jobs, men are paid more. Since we have a misogynist government at the moment, the figures must be accurate because the government is not challenging them (they are challenging quite a number of other reports including climate change).

Read the report - it's not comparing the exact same jobs. It's all full time women vs all full time men, no accounting for personal career choices (hours worked, gaps due to childrearing, years of experience, etc) and the categories cover a broad range of job titles - if they're genuinely comparing, say, female and male chemical engineers with the exact same background (i.e. neither of them had taken time off work to raise kids, and they worked in jobs comparable as far as things like weird hours, required travel, and number of hours), there's no indication of that.
Right -- it's comparing all people in a variety of jobs.  The fact is that women tend to gravitate towards certain jobs in greater numbers:  Teaching, nursing, social work, etc.  For whatever reason, women tend to choose these jobs, and they are lower-paying than, say engineering. 

I was always a teacher.  When I was in elementary school, I was already a teacher.  In contrast, my husband, who was always strong in math, went into engineering.  We both made traditional choices.  He earns more than I do.  Is someone to blame for this?  I don't think so.  I am also something of a math whiz (though I despise the subject with every cell of my body), and I was capable of being an engineer - -but it wasn't the choice I made. 

The only point where I think we have a real difference /real discrimination is when you're talking about the less-educated manual-labor jobs.  A man with no education can still earn a pretty decent wage by working his tail off in construction (or similar).  A woman with no education doesn't have the physical strength to equal that . . . so she's going to earn a lower wage as a shop clerk or a factory worker. 

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2015, 07:03:30 AM »

Do you believe that biological differences exist between men and women? If so, do you believe that there is any possibility that innate biological differences between men and women could possibly cause women to - on average - be better suited as the primary child-rearing parent?


Looking around me, I would say the split between male and female for better suited to primary child rearing is 50/50 (this is looking at temperament only). If I only looked in my extended family, that would tilt in favor of the men. However, I would say the training and practice on how to be the primary child rearing parent definitely tilts in favor of the females. That's not a biological difference, that is a society difference.

As a female, I think males are placed under a lot more pressure to conform to stereotypes than women by both men and women. I certainly see the effects more on my husband than I have ever seen on myself. I say this even knowing I once held a job where I had more experience but was still paid significantly less than a male hired at the same time (not true now thank goodness).

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2015, 07:26:06 AM »
The only point where I think we have a real difference /real discrimination is when you're talking about the less-educated manual-labor jobs.  A man with no education can still earn a pretty decent wage by working his tail off in construction (or similar).  A woman with no education doesn't have the physical strength to equal that . . . so she's going to earn a lower wage as a shop clerk or a factory worker.

That pay for labor doesn't come without risk.  Earlier I said men get killed 11 times more often at work than women, but it looks like as of the 2012 numbers, they get killed 12 times as often with 4277 men killed at work versus just 351 women.  Riskier jobs that get you killed more frequently should pay more, IMHO.

caliq

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2015, 08:13:50 AM »

Do you believe that biological differences exist between men and women? If so, do you believe that there is any possibility that innate biological differences between men and women could possibly cause women to - on average - be better suited as the primary child-rearing parent?


Looking around me, I would say the split between male and female for better suited to primary child rearing is 50/50 (this is looking at temperament only). If I only looked in my extended family, that would tilt in favor of the men. However, I would say the training and practice on how to be the primary child rearing parent definitely tilts in favor of the females. That's not a biological difference, that is a society difference.

+1

Biological differences definitely exist between men and women.

They include things like: genital morphology, physical secondary sex characteristics, and hormone levels.  This may cause qualitative differences in traits like strength or height, at least when outliers are excluded from both groups.

I am less convinced that "nurturing" is a sex-linked biological trait.  On a macro level, little girls are given baby dolls and play kitchens; little boys are given science kits and engineering toys (legos, Kinect, etc).  There is a fairly recent trend away from this, but it is still what's considered normal.  It's what's marketed to parents and children, from a very very young age. 

Your wife, as an individual, is more suited to be a SAHP than you are, as an individual.  That doesn't mean that all women or all men share your characteristics, and it doesn't mean that either of you came by those characteristics in a biological or societal manner. 

The following is a general statement with extreme versions of societal expectations and I understand that a majority of people aren't necessarily raising their kids in this sort of black and white manner, but it has been the norm for a very long time:
Women are taught, from an incredibly young age, how to be mothers.  They're taught to care about the feelings of others (often over their own), to be patient, not be too demanding or assertive ("bossy") or intellectual, not to question authority.  Men aren't taught these things -- they're taught that real men don't cry, or talk about their feelings (or even think about them, in some cases), that they have to provide for their families, be tough, not show fear or worry or pain.  Is it any wonder that men seem to gravitate towards rational/logical type fields, while women seem to gravitate towards fields requiring a higher emotional intelligence? 

-----Anecdote again:
In my personal case, I distinctly remember my mother throwing away Barbies I was given, and making my little sister give a hand-me-down Gameboy back to the friend who had given it to her.  They were pretty progressive parents back in the day (lol I'm 23, but still, early 90's).  My father, a very mechanically inclined man, was blessed with two daughters and no sons.  I spent a lot of my childhood in machine shops running lathes, climbing around on drill rigs and helping to rebuild complex hydraulic systems, helping him work on cars, etc etc.  The rest of it was spent in a horse barn or with my nose in a book.  My parents like to joke that, when I was born, and my dad saw the nurse with a pink blanket wrapped baby, his reaction was "Nope, I ordered the other kind." 

I didn't give two shits about anything feminine (refused to wear skirts or dresses, played with toy horses instead of dolls, never cared about getting dirty, etc .) until well into middle school or even high school.  I actually distinctly remember one of my "friends" telling me in freshman year of HS that I needed to start plucking my eyebrows.  I literally had no idea what she was talking about and she didn't really explain it to me, except for to say something about how they were pretty hairy.  So mean! I went home and tried to shave them to make them smaller, and ended up shaving off half of one...my mom had to pencil it on every morning for months.  After that, I started giving a shit about femininity and acting like a proper girl.  I started caring about how I looked and how I made others feel (before that I was always that super smart bossy kid that couldn't understand why everyone else couldn't see the "obvious" answer).  I stopped raising my hand for every single question the teacher asked me, and I started spending more time on learning how to do makeup and less time on reading for fun. 

Despite loving high school biology, I never considered it as a career, because I was positive that I couldn't be a biology teacher (see above about obvious answers, lol).  I didn't want to be a doctor, and it literally never occurred to me that I could be a scientist.  Maybe that's a personal failure on my part, or maybe it's got something to do with the fact that I was trying really hard to fit into society's definition of a proper girl, which I didn't think included things like lots of studying or putting your career above family and relationships. 

I struggled with that for a long time and bounced around to a lot of schools and majors before a psychology class with a unit on brain anatomy reminded me how much I loved biology.  Now I'm at a top 25 R1 university finishing up my BS in Molecular Bio, and I still struggle with the decision to put career above family, and to put my needs above the needs of others.  The lab I really really really really want to do my PhD in is at Stanford, and I was wavering on even applying because I know what COL is like around Palo Alto -- with DH only bringing in VA disability, and two big dogs that require a sizable yard, it didn't seem feasible to actually move out there.  DH had to sit me down and tell me he was fine with living 2+ hours outside the city and me commuting on a weekly basis between there and grad student housing before I would even make it an option.  Maybe you can view that as an entirely individual personality flaw, but I know what I was like before I realized what society expected of me, and I wasn't concerned with those kinds of things.   

I have always been the kind of person who is miserable without a busy schedule involving something intellectually challenging me.  Even when I wasn't sure what I wanted to pursue as a career, I never considered not having a career.  I could never be a SAHM, because it absolutely does not suit my personality.  I am a total bitch if I spend more than a day or two in a row relaxing -- this is not to say that SAHP'ing isn't a challenging, busy, non-relaxing venture; just providing evidence of the basis of my decision on my personal suitability for it. 

I don't see anything in my female peers that indicates they are more innately suited for parenting than our male peers.  I do, however, see men dominating classroom discussions by interrupting women, ignoring women and then repeating the valid points the women just made, interrupting the end of a professor's question to answer before anyone else can (manners--which women are taught to place much more emphasis on).  I see the same men consistently getting erroneous results in labs, and then falsifying their data by copying off their female peers in lieu of redoing the experiment (classroom labs, so not really a big deal ethically, unless you believe it indicates they would do the same in a research environment).  I see the women who barely participate in class discussions getting much higher scores on exams than their male peers.  And yet, the men who are most vocal are the ones who a professor remembers and likes enough to give lab research opportunities and write a letter of recommendation for (basically the most important qualification for grad/professional school).  All because little girls are taught not to be bossy and raise their hands before speaking and have manners. 

There's several studies where faculty in charge of research labs (and therefore undergrad research opportunities/grad admissions/post-doc hirings) are sent several CV's with the same exact information, except for the name.  The CV with the white male name is universally better received, by every race/gender of PI.  When asked why they chose to hire that person over all others, they say things like "seems more competent."  If that's not evidence of a societal bias, I'm not sure what is. 

I was about to apologize for the incredible length of this reply, but then I realized that I'm not actually sorry for inconveniencing anyone who took the time to read it, because this is an issue that I feel very strongly about, and I would hope that what I've said here could have an impact on at least one person's view of the issue. 


PS -- to be clear, I do not believe these societal pressures are only in the direction of men->women.  Everyone is under pressure to conform (that's actually the only reason civilization functions at all, if you consider that not murdering/raping/stealing is conforming to societal pressure to not do those things).  Men definitely face stronger pressures in some respects, and both genders place pressure on both genders.  I'm not trying to frame this as a female victim thing; it kind of comes off that way but that's just because my personal experiences have more to do with what pressures a woman faces, though DH's disability has recently opened my eyes a lot to what pressures men are faced with. 

TL;DR -- It's asinine to think women are more biologically suited to primary child-rearing when our entire system conditions women for that suitability.  Everyone is conditioned by society throughout childhood and pressured to conform to expectations throughout adulthood.  Conforming doesn't imply a biological basis, it just implies that the conditioning was successful. 

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2015, 08:28:53 AM »
TL;DR -- It's asinine to think women are more biologically suited to primary child-rearing when our entire system conditions women for that suitability.  Everyone is conditioned by society throughout childhood and pressured to conform to expectations throughout adulthood.  Conforming doesn't imply a biological basis, it just implies that the conditioning was successful.

Fair enough. I'm really not interested in changing your opinion, and I don't care enough about the topic to find out if there's any relevant research, but I still think that there's no reason to assume that there isn't a biologic basis for women being more nurturing than men. Actually, if one were to extrapolate from the behavior of our fellow mammals, I think that would be the most logical conclusion.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2015, 08:32:16 AM »
Actually, if one were to extrapolate from the behavior of our fellow mammals, I think that would be the most logical conclusion.

That's a pretty weak argument, if you're trying to determine how we should structure our lives.  Other mammals also rape and cannibalize each other with some regularity, but that doesn't mean this is the natural order of things to which we should aspire.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2015, 08:40:36 AM »
I think the thing that's hardest for me to wrap my head around is: Why is this a bad thing?

I mean, regardless of whether women make more family and life friendly choices because of themselves, society, or the flying spaghetti monster, the results are the same. They end up making slightly less money, yes - but in return for that, they get MUCH higher quality of life, more time with their families, better health, and substantially longer lives! I mean, isn't this sort of what Mustachianism is about - working less or not at all and focusing on living the highest quality of life you can?

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2015, 08:42:19 AM »
Actually, if one were to extrapolate from the behavior of our fellow mammals, I think that would be the most logical conclusion.

That's a pretty weak argument, if you're trying to determine how we should structure our lives.  Other mammals also rape and cannibalize each other with some regularity, but that doesn't mean this is the natural order of things to which we should aspire.

I'm not suggesting that we should structure our lives based on our primal urges, but it would be pretty ignorant to suggest that we don't have them. Should my wife start working if she is afraid that her decision to stay home with our children was more influenced by society rather than biology? Does it even matter?

Along those lines, should I refrain from suppressing my urge to act on my sexual impulses, since my behavior is merely a construct of society? Of course not.

I'm with Zikoris - my wife knows she is getting the better end of the bargain. Neither of us believe that child-rearing is easy, but it's absolutely what she wants to be doing right now. Me - I'm NOT doing what I want to be doing right now. Not even close. When the kids are in school, my wife may go back to work for a few years if we aren't FI by then. No doubt she will be earning less than her peers and contributing to these depressing statistics. Do you think that will make her regret her decision? I don't.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 08:55:43 AM by Mississippi Mudstache »

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2015, 09:00:23 AM »
It's about freedom.  Freedom to make major life decisions based on your own circumstances and what is best for you, male or female, rather than what society thinks is best or most fair.  With that freedom, there should be the responsibility on your part to accept the consequences of your actions, but those should not be more or less than the situation deserves.  Of course, you will never get neutrality, but that's the aim.

Quote
but in return for that, they get MUCH higher quality of life, more time with their families, better health, and substantially longer lives!

If it's so great, why aren't you trying to do the same, or split the difference?  Wouldn't your wife want you to be equally happy and long lived?

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2015, 09:01:47 AM »
It's about freedom.  Freedom to make major life decisions based on your own circumstances and what is best for you, male or female, rather than what society thinks is best or most fair.  With that freedom, there should be the responsibility on your part to accept the consequences of your actions, but those should not be more or less than the situation deserves.  Of course, you will never get neutrality, but that's the aim.

Quote
but in return for that, they get MUCH higher quality of life, more time with their families, better health, and substantially longer lives!

If it's so great, why aren't you trying to do the same, or split the difference?  Wouldn't your wife want you to be equally happy and long lived?

I'm a woman, and I absolutely DO focus on living a great life at the expense of growing a career!

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2015, 09:08:45 AM »
I recently saw somebody post up a list of about THIRTY sources that debunked the notion that women are paid less for equal work.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  It was a lot of information and from many sources, not just government, not just North America, not just university studies, etc.  Genuinely diverse sources.  The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men.  Still, I'll post it here if I can dig it up.  It was a boatload of data that seemed to support that pay is not related to gender.

I'll also drop this little bomb of darkness here: Men get killed in the workplace 11 times as often as women.  Where's the outcry for more women to be killed in the workplace?  Seems to me that we need to be seeing at least 11 times as many women getting killed at work in order to be equal to men.

Who is doing all of this killing in the workplace, men or women?

I think machines, explosions, Mother Nature, and accidents would probably account for most of it. I don't think my brain is capable of assigning a gender to, say, a collapsing mine tunnel, but anyone else is free to try. Women avoid those jobs like the plague.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2015, 09:11:23 AM »
I recently saw somebody post up a list of about THIRTY sources that debunked the notion that women are paid less for equal work.  I'll see if I can dig it up.  It was a lot of information and from many sources, not just government, not just North America, not just university studies, etc.  Genuinely diverse sources.  The short version was basically women live more diverse lives on average and not just the straight line of "start working ------> retire" that is typical for men.  Still, I'll post it here if I can dig it up.  It was a boatload of data that seemed to support that pay is not related to gender.

I'll also drop this little bomb of darkness here: Men get killed in the workplace 11 times as often as women.  Where's the outcry for more women to be killed in the workplace?  Seems to me that we need to be seeing at least 11 times as many women getting killed at work in order to be equal to men.

Who is doing all of this killing in the workplace, men or women?

I believe Sid is referring to all workplace fatalities, not just murder. This article lists the 10 jobs most likely to result in fatality. All of them are traditionally male-dominated professions.

jmusic

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2015, 09:21:32 AM »
The only point where I think we have a real difference /real discrimination is when you're talking about the less-educated manual-labor jobs.  A man with no education can still earn a pretty decent wage by working his tail off in construction (or similar).  A woman with no education doesn't have the physical strength to equal that . . . so she's going to earn a lower wage as a shop clerk or a factory worker.

That pay for labor doesn't come without risk.  Earlier I said men get killed 11 times more often at work than women, but it looks like as of the 2012 numbers, they get killed 12 times as often with 4277 men killed at work versus just 351 women.  Riskier jobs that get you killed more frequently should pay more, IMHO.

Now that I think about it, these numbers are meaningless without controlling for size of the workforce.  What if there were 12x more working men than women? 

Regarding extra pay for risk, in some cases there is extra pay, but more often there is not...

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2015, 09:28:14 AM »
The only point where I think we have a real difference /real discrimination is when you're talking about the less-educated manual-labor jobs.  A man with no education can still earn a pretty decent wage by working his tail off in construction (or similar).  A woman with no education doesn't have the physical strength to equal that . . . so she's going to earn a lower wage as a shop clerk or a factory worker.

That pay for labor doesn't come without risk.  Earlier I said men get killed 11 times more often at work than women, but it looks like as of the 2012 numbers, they get killed 12 times as often with 4277 men killed at work versus just 351 women.  Riskier jobs that get you killed more frequently should pay more, IMHO.

Now that I think about it, these numbers are meaningless without controlling for size of the workforce.  What if there were 12x more working men than women? 

Regarding extra pay for risk, in some cases there is extra pay, but more often there is not...

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, women accounted for 47.4% of the U.S. workforce in 2012.

Jesstache

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2015, 09:50:23 AM »
Just to throw another opinion out there, I definitely have been treated differently in my career as a female engineer. 

Some things I notice are:
Men don't expect me to be as good at my job so when they realize that I actually am really good, I get a lot more respect than a male who may be equally as good, because it's more impressive for a woman to be such a good engineer (at least that's how it feels a lot of the time).  So, initially not as respected, but later after I've proven myself, it almost goes too far the other way.  The bar is, apparently, set  low.

I started out with a woman boss and later had a male boss.  The woman boss hands down was more fair to everyone (as far as I could tell).  It was a big government contractor though so raises and stuff were likely painfully equal no matter how well you performed or male/female differences due to strict HR policies on raises (where do you fall in the salary band for your pay grade is likely the ONLY influence).   

I asked the male boss for a raise (different, smaller company) and he ABSOLUTELY treated me differently for being a woman.  EVEN had the nerve to tell me I was being greedy because he knew my husband made a lot of money (HELLO).  Legality of that statement aside, I know others had asked him for a raise and he also wasn't too keen on them asking, but they did NOT get a 30 minute yelling at/lecture to go along with his displeasure either (I got a substantial raise, btw, around 10%,  because I WAS being underpaid compared to my male peers).  I also feel like he is the exception to the rule these days though.  I left that company not long after that as a direct result of that one conversation.

I could go on and on about my experience of being the only woman engineer in an office of about 80 engineers.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2015, 09:52:27 AM »
There is a lot of truth to the idea that women are horrible to work for - especially if you're younger/prettier/smarter/more qualified/have friends/seen as a threat in anyway.  You must be repressed and punished for daring to exist in your current form!

Wow, I guess that makes you part of the problem.  You don't think male bosses can be competitive as well?  Think again.  I was asked by someone a while back if I liked working for female managers (I've had both male and female superiors in my career), and I remember being really taken aback by the question.  Gender is irrelevant to the question of what makes someone a good manager or not.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2015, 11:04:53 AM »
I realize it's anecdotal, but I am in my 30s with no plans to have children (and certainly none that my employer knows about), and working for a male dominated industry. I am paid less than my male counterparts, and periodically talked to by various levels of management about when I will be leaving them in the lurch to get knocked up (actual phrasing), and various other horrific comments about my body and choices and what I should do and how much notice I should give. Yes it's illegal and uncomfortable, but it would be pretty damn hard to prove (all one on one conversations, usually at functions outside of the office), and I am not going to risk my employment on a lawsuit. In the meantime, I work hard, and actually get great performance reviews (that don't lead to much of anything), but am passed over for promotions on the pervasive belief that at some point I will get pregnant and quit to stay home. So my personal conclusion is that yes, some women might be making choices that improve their quality of life at the expense of their career earnings, but some other women may actually also be paying for those choices, whether they are the ones making them or not.

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2015, 11:56:22 AM »
So my personal conclusion is that yes, some women might be making choices that improve their quality of life at the expense of their career earnings, but some other women may actually also be paying for those choices, whether they are the ones making them or not.

Yes. This sucks.

Not that women shouldn't be free to make those choices. But until men make those same choices equally, we'll have problems like the one you describe.

jmusic

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Re: MFool article on income by age and sex
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2015, 12:28:48 PM »
I was just thinking that another factor that we're not really discussing is that men are more likely to negotiate the starting salary (which future raises are often based on) than women. 

I know some of Ramit's advice is considered less than optimal around here, but he does have some solid advice on this topic:

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/salary-negotiation/