Author Topic: Marijuana use - Give your input  (Read 54608 times)

James

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #150 on: July 07, 2014, 09:42:28 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

Fundamentalist Logic 101 Grant, you should know that by now lol

Those responses to you are why I don't post much anywhere on the internet. No balance to be seen. But thanks for trying anyway.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 09:45:06 AM by James »

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #151 on: July 07, 2014, 10:50:29 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

I'm not following you here.   

I was responding to your comment about choices cause people to be incarcerated.    I don't believe that's entirely the case when you break things down to a statistical level.     What I'm really trying to get down to is the fundamental attribution error which you probably recall from your college social psychology course.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

It doesn't remove all personal responsibility from the equation.   But when you actually look at the data you find that most people react more to their environment than they do to personal choices.    Which is why boot strap arguments and legislation don't work.    If we want to change behavior, we should work to change the environment in which the person with the behavior problem lives in.     Otherwise we're just engaging in a masturbatory punishment exercise that really doesn't help anyone.

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #152 on: July 07, 2014, 10:51:36 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

Fundamentalist Logic 101 Grant, you should know that by now lol

Those responses to you are why I don't post much anywhere on the internet. No balance to be seen. But thanks for trying anyway.

I don't understands what's fundamentalist about the argument.   Could you explain.

matchewed

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #153 on: July 07, 2014, 10:59:20 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

I'm not following you here.   

I was responding to your comment about choices cause people to be incarcerated.    I don't believe that's entirely the case when you break things down to a statistical level.     What I'm really trying to get down to is the fundamental attribution error which you probably recall from your college social psychology course.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

It doesn't remove all personal responsibility from the equation.   But when you actually look at the data you find that most people react more to their environment than they do to personal choices.    Which is why boot strap arguments and legislation don't work.    If we want to change behavior, we should work to change the environment in which the person with the behavior problem lives in.     Otherwise we're just engaging in a masturbatory punishment exercise that really doesn't help anyone.

It all comes back to your original claim that the current situation for black people is equal to or greater than slavery.


Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?

Essentially you're arguing against things grant hasn't said.

*Edit for poor writing skilz

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #154 on: July 07, 2014, 11:22:32 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

I'm not following you here.   

I was responding to your comment about choices cause people to be incarcerated.    I don't believe that's entirely the case when you break things down to a statistical level.     What I'm really trying to get down to is the fundamental attribution error which you probably recall from your college social psychology course.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

It doesn't remove all personal responsibility from the equation.   But when you actually look at the data you find that most people react more to their environment than they do to personal choices.    Which is why boot strap arguments and legislation don't work.    If we want to change behavior, we should work to change the environment in which the person with the behavior problem lives in.     Otherwise we're just engaging in a masturbatory punishment exercise that really doesn't help anyone.

It all comes back to your original claim that the current situation for black people is equal to or greater than slavery.


Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?

Essentially you're arguing against things grant hasn't said.

*Edit for poor writing skilz

I apologize if that was written in a way that could be misconstrued.   I don't really think it was a hyperbolic statement though, which is why I was attempting to explain it above.    I was arguing against his claim that you can't compare slavery to a system that perpetuates harm on people based on their choices.    As I said above, the choice argument is rather thin when you look at it from a social psychology perspective.    And the net effect of the systems is largely the same.

The net effect of the prison system (along with other forms of institutionalized racism like our public school system) on minority populations essentially  functions to keep them in a permanently minority position.    The point of legislation like Jim Crowe or even slavery was to maintain minorities in a lower position in society.    Institutions like our justice system perpetuate the same treatment today when you look at populations on a statistical level.

No, we no longer allow people to own other people and there aren't laws restricting all minorities from having access to certain areas.    Our current system is much more insidious.   Minorities make up the vast majority of our prison population while still making up a minority portion of society.    Couple that with the fact that it's considerably more difficult for a felon to obtain a job, public housing, funds for education etc.    And, they're no longer allowed to have a say in the legislative system because their right to vote is taken away, and the systems don't appear that much different to me.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 11:30:15 AM by greaper007 »

matchewed

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2014, 11:41:18 AM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

I'm not following you here.   

I was responding to your comment about choices cause people to be incarcerated.    I don't believe that's entirely the case when you break things down to a statistical level.     What I'm really trying to get down to is the fundamental attribution error which you probably recall from your college social psychology course.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

It doesn't remove all personal responsibility from the equation.   But when you actually look at the data you find that most people react more to their environment than they do to personal choices.    Which is why boot strap arguments and legislation don't work.    If we want to change behavior, we should work to change the environment in which the person with the behavior problem lives in.     Otherwise we're just engaging in a masturbatory punishment exercise that really doesn't help anyone.

It all comes back to your original claim that the current situation for black people is equal to or greater than slavery.


Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?

Essentially you're arguing against things grant hasn't said.

*Edit for poor writing skilz

I apologize if that was written in a way that could be misconstrued.   I don't really think it was a hyperbolic statement though, which is why I was attempting to explain it above.    I was arguing against his claim that you can't compare slavery to a system that perpetuates harm on people based on their choices.    As I said above, the choice argument is rather thin when you look at it from a social psychology perspective.    And the net effect of the systems is largely the same.

The net effect of the prison system (along with other forms of institutionalized racism like our public school system) on minority populations essentially  functions to keep them in a permanently minority position.    The point of legislation like Jim Crowe or even slavery was to maintain minorities in a lower position in society.    Institutions like our justice system perpetuate the same treatment today when you look at populations on a statistical level.

No, we no longer allow people to own other people and there aren't laws restricting all minorities from having access to certain areas.    Our current system is much more insidious.   Minorities make up the vast majority of our prison population while still making up a minority portion of society.    Couple that with the fact that it's considerably more difficult for a felon to obtain a job, public housing, funds for education etc.    And, they're no longer allowed to have a say in the legislative system because their right to vote is taken away, and the systems don't appear that much different to me.

I'm not saying there isn't systematic racism in the US. I'm not saying that policies don't unfairly target minorities in the US. But you are saying that what is going on now is equal to slavery. And backing that up with prison statistics. You're saying that the 5.3 million people denied the right to vote (source) is equal to four million people (at the a peak of 1860) being forced to work with no pay, ripped from their families, raped, tortured, treated like cattle, and murdered arbitrarily? You're sure about that? The systems don't appear much different...

So to be clear your making the assertion that current marijuana laws have equal effects to slavery. Gotcha. Your perspective of trying to equate these two things diminishes the terrible things the US did 130 (and more) years ago. Blech.

James

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2014, 12:50:49 PM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

Fundamentalist Logic 101 Grant, you should know that by now lol

Those responses to you are why I don't post much anywhere on the internet. No balance to be seen. But thanks for trying anyway.

I don't understands what's fundamentalist about the argument.   Could you explain.

Don't really want to, but sure, I'll explain...

Your argument shows no nuance, no understanding of the big picture, it's just a statement driven by ideological purity which is devoid of balance. There are fundamentalists on both sides of most issues, and they frustrate the rest because it makes it very difficult to discuss the issue.

But that's just the opinion of a random person on the internet who has no desire to get in a debate with you. And I'm certainly not saying I'm guiltless, everyone has the tendency to not see the big picture to one extent or another.

hybrid

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #157 on: July 07, 2014, 12:54:05 PM »

Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?


As a general rule of thumb I've found that comparing just about anything to slavery in the US or the horrors of Nazi Germany, though often done, is usually a really bad way to make a point.

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #158 on: July 07, 2014, 02:27:35 PM »

I'm not saying there isn't systematic racism in the US. I'm not saying that policies don't unfairly target minorities in the US. But you are saying that what is going on now is equal to slavery. And backing that up with prison statistics. You're saying that the 5.3 million people denied the right to vote (source) is equal to four million people (at the a peak of 1860) being forced to work with no pay, ripped from their families, raped, tortured, treated like cattle, and murdered arbitrarily? You're sure about that? The systems don't appear much different...

So to be clear your making the assertion that current marijuana laws have equal effects to slavery. Gotcha. Your perspective of trying to equate these two things diminishes the terrible things the US did 130 (and more) years ago. Blech.
I really don't think it does, and I'm referring more to drug laws in general than strictly marijuana.    And we're getting into another territory that I have some experience with.    It's much easier to see the evilness of a system that doesn't hide and does what everyone can agree are completely horrible things.    It's not always easy to see the insidious horrible things that are done in private and not everyone can agree are awful, those are worse.     I'll give you an example.   My wife grew up in a family that was poor and both physically and sexually abusive.    We can all agree that's awful.     I grew up in a family that was rich, educated, verbally abusive, manipulative and inappropriate in so many ways that I can't even uncover them yet.    Who does my wife, who has a PhD in clinical psychology think is worse?   My family, and I tend to agree with her.      That's sort of the difference between slavery and the prison system.     It's easy to see how evil slavery was, it's not always so easy to see how evil labeling someone a felon is.

Now, to answer your points.   So prisoners aren't forced to work for no, or marginal pay (I believe federal prisoners earn $.14 an hour)?     Children aren't ripped from their mothers who are forced into incarceration (often for a peripheral participation in the drug trade, like allowing their abusive boyfriend to deal out of their apartment)?    There isn't rape in prison?   That solitary confinement isn't an inhumane method of torture? And that the state doesn't participate in carrying out the death penalty?    All for what?   To make sure suburban kids aren't shooting heroin?    Well, I have a cousin who's been clean for 3 years and a dead uncle.    The drug war and prison didn't really do much to stop their desire to use drugs, or a source from which they could obtain them.

The difference  of course is that we see slaves as helpless pawns and criminals as miscriants that made bad choices and need to be punished.    Once you throw the fundamental attribution error into the equation though, you realize that people born into poverty in a  certain neighborhood are often born into a system that determines their fate without much individual control.    Much like slavery.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:04:31 PM by greaper007 »

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #159 on: July 07, 2014, 02:31:21 PM »
Or prison system is racist, based on punishment instead of rehabilitation, ineffective and expensive.    It's an embarrassing stain on our country that people from more enlightened countries should make fun of us for.    And yes, drug laws and the prison system are as damaging to minority communities as Jim Crowe, the Chinese Exclusion Act, The Trail of Tears and every other racist legislation we've enacted in the history of this country.
"Thing X is less bad than two hundred years of slavery" != "Thing X is not bad"

Fundamentalist Logic 101 Grant, you should know that by now lol

Those responses to you are why I don't post much anywhere on the internet. No balance to be seen. But thanks for trying anyway.

I don't understands what's fundamentalist about the argument.   Could you explain.

Don't really want to, but sure, I'll explain...

Your argument shows no nuance, no understanding of the big picture, it's just a statement driven by ideological purity which is devoid of balance. There are fundamentalists on both sides of most issues, and they frustrate the rest because it makes it very difficult to discuss the issue.

But that's just the opinion of a random person on the internet who has no desire to get in a debate with you. And I'm certainly not saying I'm guiltless, everyone has the tendency to not see the big picture to one extent or another.

Could you be more specific?    I understand that you don't agree with my stance, but I don't see a demonstration of how it's a fundamentalist argument devoid of a 10,000ft understanding.   

Really, isn't an ad-hominem attack of "fundamentalist" sort of, well...fundamentalist?

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #160 on: July 07, 2014, 02:44:04 PM »

Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?


As a general rule of thumb I've found that comparing just about anything to slavery in the US or the horrors of Nazi Germany, though often done, is usually a really bad way to make a point.

I completely agree that it's improper and overused.    There are exceptions though.    That's when you're talking about the groups that were actually affected by the Nazis or slavery or things that really are very close in comparison.    A discussion about the current rise of far right fascism in places like Greece warrants a reference to the rise of the Nazi party in post WW1 Germany.    A discussion about why antisemitism is wrong warrants a reference to genocide.    And a system that continues to hurt black people and other minorities disproportionately, warrants a reference to slavery.    As the entire reason many black people have a lower SES and participate in the prison system is because of the initial sin of slavery and the failure of reconstruction to provide those ensnared in it a leg up in participation in society.

I think we often forget that Jim Crowe existed a very short time ago in our society.    My father is in his early 60s and would often tell me stories about traveling through the south as a child.    He told me one story where he was waiting in line at a fast food restaurant behind an entire black family.    The guy at the counter made them move out of the way so that he could wait on an 8 year old just because he was white.     That wasn't very long ago.    And there's a direct link between that, slavery and the drug war.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:07:06 PM by greaper007 »

grantmeaname

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #161 on: July 07, 2014, 02:55:55 PM »
The unavailability of produce in parts of the inner city = slavery.
The preferential rate at which capital gains are taxed with comparison to earned income = slavery.
Merit-based college scholarships = slavery.
Inadequate mental health treatment for veterans = slavery.

ChrisLansing

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #162 on: July 07, 2014, 03:47:46 PM »

Agreed, our prison and judicial system as a whole is as damaging to large swaths of people as much if not more than Jim Crowe and slavery were.

That is where this started. All grant has pointed out is that your statement is hyperbolic. Grant is not making a claim that their lives are buttercups and rainbows. Just stating the simple observational fact that stating that they're worse off than during slavery is a stupid statement. Rather than taking the opportunity to clarify and maybe pull back from stating that what is happening today is worse than slavery, you're doubling down?


As a general rule of thumb I've found that comparing just about anything to slavery in the US or the horrors of Nazi Germany, though often done, is usually a really bad way to make a point.

Agreed.   Likewise, comparing pot to booze is a bad way to argue for the legalization of pot.   It doesn't really follow that everything that's not as bad as booze needs to be legalized.   

I'm not really strongly against making it legal, in fact on the whole I'd probably support it, but I'm surprised to see so many mustacians arguing in favor of using something which fogs your senses and burns up your money. 

matchewed

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #163 on: July 07, 2014, 03:51:51 PM »

I'm not saying there isn't systematic racism in the US. I'm not saying that policies don't unfairly target minorities in the US. But you are saying that what is going on now is equal to slavery. And backing that up with prison statistics. You're saying that the 5.3 million people denied the right to vote (source) is equal to four million people (at the a peak of 1860) being forced to work with no pay, ripped from their families, raped, tortured, treated like cattle, and murdered arbitrarily? You're sure about that? The systems don't appear much different...

So to be clear your making the assertion that current marijuana laws have equal effects to slavery. Gotcha. Your perspective of trying to equate these two things diminishes the terrible things the US did 130 (and more) years ago. Blech.
I really don't think it does, and I'm referring more to drug laws in general than strictly marijuana.    And we're getting into another territory that I have some experience with.    It's much easier to see the evilness of a system that doesn't hide and does what everyone can agree are completely horrible things.    It's not always easy to see the insidious horrible things that are done in private and not everyone can agree are awful, those are worse.     I'll give you an example.   My wife grew up in a family that was poor and both physically and sexually abusive.    We can all agree that's awful.     I grew up in a family that was rich, educated, verbally abusive, manipulative and inappropriate in so many ways that I can't even uncover them yet.    Who does my wife, who has a PhD in clinical psychology think is worse?   My family, and I tend to agree with her.      That's sort of the difference between slavery and the prison system.     It's easy to see how evil slavery was, it's not always so easy to see how evil labeling someone a felon is.

Now, to answer your points.   So prisoners aren't forced to work for no, or marginal pay (I believe federal prisoners earn $.14 an hour)?     Children aren't ripped from their mothers who are forced into incarceration (often for a peripheral participation in the drug trade, like allowing their abusive boyfriend to deal out of their apartment)?    There isn't rape in prison?   That solitary confinement isn't an inhumane method of torture? And that the state doesn't participate in carrying out the death penalty?    All for what?   To make sure suburban kids aren't shooting heroin?    Well, I have a cousin who's been clean for 3 years and a dead uncle.    The drug war and prison didn't really do much to stop their desire to use drugs, or a source from which they could obtain them.

The difference  of course is that we see slaves as helpless pawns and criminals as miscriants that made bad choices and need to be punished.    Once you throw the fundamental attribution error into the equation though, you realize that people born into poverty in a  certain neighborhood are often born into a system that determines their fate without much individual control.    Much like slavery.

I appreciate your attempt to clarify your points. I still don't agree and personally see a clear difference between treating an entire people as property and systemic racist policies and their impact on a percentage of people. Just to be clear neither is cool. But to tie it back into the subject I see an even greater difference between drug law and slavery.

randymarsh

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #164 on: July 07, 2014, 04:20:48 PM »
Agreed.   Likewise, comparing pot to booze is a bad way to argue for the legalization of pot.   It doesn't really follow that everything that's not as bad as booze needs to be legalized.   

I'm not really strongly against making it legal, in fact on the whole I'd probably support it, but I'm surprised to see so many mustacians arguing in favor of using something which fogs your senses and burns up your money.

You call it fogging the senses, but I call it a different perspective. It's an (enjoyable) experience. Sometimes I want my senses fogged! I guess it's not a sense, but I'm a natural worrier and pot is amazing for that. Would rather smoke occasionally than take whatever new pharmaceutical is out.

Mad Tiki

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #165 on: July 07, 2014, 10:08:18 PM »
Im a moderate user myself. I dont really care for the clumsiness associated with drinking.
My personal experience with smoking is different than the average persons.
It gives me a big energy burst that lasts about 3 hours. I can also get focused and very creative while on it. I restore and customize classic cars for a living, and have come up with, as well as professionally executed many jobs while "buzzed".
Like others have said, regular or abusive use of any drug will have consequences.
As long as its in moderation and does not affect your daily responsibilities, theres no problem.
My theory on why its illegal (besides the prisons and courts making lots of profit) are the inability to pinpoint the approximate time of usage like you can with alcohol.
Lets say you got high sat night and had a minor accident in your car or at work, they require you to take a drug test. You therefore show up positive, yet are nowhere near high. I can see lots of gray shaded areas being used by lawyers. And we know how things turn out when their involved.
So. Anyway. For what its worth, vaporize away! :)

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #166 on: July 07, 2014, 10:12:15 PM »

I'm not saying there isn't systematic racism in the US. I'm not saying that policies don't unfairly target minorities in the US. But you are saying that what is going on now is equal to slavery. And backing that up with prison statistics. You're saying that the 5.3 million people denied the right to vote (source) is equal to four million people (at the a peak of 1860) being forced to work with no pay, ripped from their families, raped, tortured, treated like cattle, and murdered arbitrarily? You're sure about that? The systems don't appear much different...

So to be clear your making the assertion that current marijuana laws have equal effects to slavery. Gotcha. Your perspective of trying to equate these two things diminishes the terrible things the US did 130 (and more) years ago. Blech.
I really don't think it does, and I'm referring more to drug laws in general than strictly marijuana.    And we're getting into another territory that I have some experience with.    It's much easier to see the evilness of a system that doesn't hide and does what everyone can agree are completely horrible things.    It's not always easy to see the insidious horrible things that are done in private and not everyone can agree are awful, those are worse.     I'll give you an example.   My wife grew up in a family that was poor and both physically and sexually abusive.    We can all agree that's awful.     I grew up in a family that was rich, educated, verbally abusive, manipulative and inappropriate in so many ways that I can't even uncover them yet.    Who does my wife, who has a PhD in clinical psychology think is worse?   My family, and I tend to agree with her.      That's sort of the difference between slavery and the prison system.     It's easy to see how evil slavery was, it's not always so easy to see how evil labeling someone a felon is.

Now, to answer your points.   So prisoners aren't forced to work for no, or marginal pay (I believe federal prisoners earn $.14 an hour)?     Children aren't ripped from their mothers who are forced into incarceration (often for a peripheral participation in the drug trade, like allowing their abusive boyfriend to deal out of their apartment)?    There isn't rape in prison?   That solitary confinement isn't an inhumane method of torture? And that the state doesn't participate in carrying out the death penalty?    All for what?   To make sure suburban kids aren't shooting heroin?    Well, I have a cousin who's been clean for 3 years and a dead uncle.    The drug war and prison didn't really do much to stop their desire to use drugs, or a source from which they could obtain them.

The difference  of course is that we see slaves as helpless pawns and criminals as miscriants that made bad choices and need to be punished.    Once you throw the fundamental attribution error into the equation though, you realize that people born into poverty in a  certain neighborhood are often born into a system that determines their fate without much individual control.    Much like slavery.

I appreciate your attempt to clarify your points. I still don't agree and personally see a clear difference between treating an entire people as property and systemic racist policies and their impact on a percentage of people. Just to be clear neither is cool. But to tie it back into the subject I see an even greater difference between drug law and slavery.

Well, I respect your opinion.   Have a good one and perhaps we can share a home brew someday.   I'm not really that into pot.

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #167 on: July 07, 2014, 10:16:25 PM »
The unavailability of produce in parts of the inner city = slavery.
The preferential rate at which capital gains are taxed with comparison to earned income = slavery.
Merit-based college scholarships = slavery.
Inadequate mental health treatment for veterans = slavery.

I understand what your argument, but the prison slavery, Jim Crowe link is a little stronger and better studied.    There is a direct historical link between the systems.    I think I explained my reasoning fairly well in the above posts.

A really decent documentary (that might still be on Netflix) covering this subject is "The House I Live In."    Check it out.

grantmeaname

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #168 on: July 07, 2014, 11:30:59 PM »
Again, I do not disagree that the justice system is failing the lower class and African Americans. I've read the studies in which accused minorities get harsher sentences for equivalent crimes than accused whites. I'm not saying there aren't issues. I'm saying that your statement that they are worse than slavery does nothing to increase understanding and does a good deal to make the conversation oversimplified and divisive.

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #169 on: July 08, 2014, 05:46:48 AM »
It seems simple to me. Regardless of if you agree with the law if you knowingly break the law then it must be enforced fully. Either repeal the law of live with it.

As far as slavery goes, we are all indentured servants to government who takes more than 50% of our income when you consider all taxes (state local Federal paid direct and added into the pricing of the products we buy)

No one will be free until the government overlords are thrown out


As far as slaverly goes, we are all indentured servants to government who takes more than 50% of our income when you consider all taxes (state local Federal paid direct and added into the pricing of the products we buy)

GuitarStv

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #170 on: July 08, 2014, 06:31:39 AM »
As far as slaverly goes, we are all indentured servants to government who takes more than 50% of our income when you consider all taxes (state local Federal paid direct and added into the pricing of the products we buy)

Yeah, totally agree.

It's too bad there's no way a citizen can have any say over who's in power.
It's too bad these 'slave owners' aren't made up of and elected by the people they're busy abusing.
It's too bad none of the money that you consider your indentured servitude goes towards things you use every day (police protection, fire departments, environmental regulation to prevent industries from dumping pollutants in your back yard, roads, national defense, etc).

Wait, I don't agree at all.  Because what you've said is silly.

grantmeaname

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #171 on: July 08, 2014, 06:31:50 AM »
How is it that the government only collects 20% of GDP in taxes if they're taking 50% of everyone's income?

hybrid

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #172 on: July 08, 2014, 06:47:31 AM »
I completely agree that it's improper and overused.    There are exceptions though.   

Everyone that makes the comparison thinks they have a valid comparison (and therefore an exception). I disagree that yours is valid.

As far as slaverly goes, we are all indentured servants to government who takes more than 50% of our income when you consider all taxes (state local Federal paid direct and added into the pricing of the products we buy)

Like this person. Welcome to the forums. Thank you for so quickly illustrating the point for me. Not quite the slavery comparison, but a kissing cousin. Like Guitarstv pointed out, comparing indentured servitude to being part of a working society (which means paying taxes) is a really lousy comparison indeed. For starters, you can always emigrate if taxes are so unbearable. Indentured servants have no such options.

greaper007

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #173 on: July 08, 2014, 09:43:35 AM »
Again, I do not disagree that the justice system is failing the lower class and African Americans. I've read the studies in which accused minorities get harsher sentences for equivalent crimes than accused whites. I'm not saying there aren't issues. I'm saying that your statement that they are worse than slavery does nothing to increase understanding and does a good deal to make the conversation oversimplified and divisive.

Again though, I wasn't just spouting off, I gave a detailed explanation of why I think it was worse than slavery.   This isn't the same thing as a 14 year old calling his mother Hitler.   

Again, I think the dehumanization process that we subject people to when we label them felons is more insidious and harder to combat than slavery was.    I don't disagree that slavery was more widespread and perpetuated more outright atrocities.   However, the pure evilness of a system like slavery is easier to combat because even a layman can understand why it's wrong.    Which is why within a hundred years of the signing of the constitution we were engaged in a civil war where the main objective was states rights....to have slaves.

Do you really think we'll ever fight a civil war over the dehumanization of people we consider subhuman because they made "bad choices?"   Even the most liberal politicians are afraid to go after things like mandatory minimums.     That's where the manipulative, faceless, dehumanizing forces of our justice system are as bad, if not worse than a system like slavery.

Again, the reason the people that are most affected by this system are people of color is directly related to the fact that they're the same groups that were involved in the slave trade.   Black people as a group have yet to be given any real restitution for that atrocity, and the atrocities have continued for this group because of that.    That's my point.

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2014, 08:40:04 AM »
It seems simple to me. Regardless of if you agree with the law if you knowingly break the law then it must be enforced fully. Either repeal the law of live with it.

As far as slavery goes, we are all indentured servants to government who takes more than 50% of our income when you consider all taxes (state local Federal paid direct and added into the pricing of the products we buy)

No one will be free until the government overlords are thrown out

Thank you for that!    By the way,  slavery is very legal in this country still.  Ever hear of the "draft?"   I can think of no other form of slavery more heinous than to force people to fight wars for the king and lay down their lives.   I know many people who were killed and maimed in Vietnam.   They were drafted.  In other words,  they were forced by the government to fight and die. 

As to the marijuana debate.  I believe that has been finalized in most states at this point and soon federal law will follow.  This is a great example of states rights in action.   

Now if we can only get the FDA shut down and have complete freedom with the medications we freely choose to use.   

I'm still wondering what ever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in this country?   I sure as heck don't feel free. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2014, 09:11:17 AM »
Do you really think we'll ever fight a civil war over the dehumanization of people we consider subhuman because they made "bad choices?"   Even the most liberal politicians are afraid to go after things like mandatory minimums.     That's where the manipulative, faceless, dehumanizing forces of our justice system are as bad, if not worse than a system like slavery.

Again, the reason the people that are most affected by this system are people of color is directly related to the fact that they're the same groups that were involved in the slave trade.   Black people as a group have yet to be given any real restitution for that atrocity, and the atrocities have continued for this group because of that.    That's my point.

I'm intrigued by this thought, could you flesh it out a bit?

- Exactly what restitution should be given?
- Who should be a recipient of this restitution (is it tied solely to skin colour, or parental heritage)?
- Who should pay for this restitution (children of slave owners, children of people who fought for slave rights, white people, the government)?
- How does restitution prevent future racial atrocities?

boy_bye

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #176 on: July 23, 2014, 03:25:20 PM »
Do you really think we'll ever fight a civil war over the dehumanization of people we consider subhuman because they made "bad choices?"   Even the most liberal politicians are afraid to go after things like mandatory minimums.     That's where the manipulative, faceless, dehumanizing forces of our justice system are as bad, if not worse than a system like slavery.

Again, the reason the people that are most affected by this system are people of color is directly related to the fact that they're the same groups that were involved in the slave trade.   Black people as a group have yet to be given any real restitution for that atrocity, and the atrocities have continued for this group because of that.    That's my point.

I'm intrigued by this thought, could you flesh it out a bit?

- Exactly what restitution should be given?
- Who should be a recipient of this restitution (is it tied solely to skin colour, or parental heritage)?
- Who should pay for this restitution (children of slave owners, children of people who fought for slave rights, white people, the government)?
- How does restitution prevent future racial atrocities?

just gonna leave this here
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #177 on: July 23, 2014, 04:21:27 PM »
Not a fan. The smell makes me really queasy, and makes my boyfriend start hacking and coughing. I find it absolutely revolting, on the same level as chewing tobacco.

I have no issue with people doing it in their homes or other private places, but I'm concerned that legalization will lead to people using it a lot more freely in public, which would make my life living hell. I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here.

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #178 on: July 24, 2014, 10:40:59 PM »
I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here.

Places with severe punishments just for personal use are not places you'd likely move to. Also, isn't pot de facto legal where you're at already? I saw some video where people in BC were smoking at a rally and the police were just standing around directing traffic.

You really think people should be locked up and locked out of jobs because a smell makes you queasy?

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #179 on: July 24, 2014, 11:03:49 PM »
I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here.

Places with severe punishments just for personal use are not places you'd likely move to. Also, isn't pot de facto legal where you're at already? I saw some video where people in BC were smoking at a rally and the police were just standing around directing traffic.

You really think people should be locked up and locked out of jobs because a smell makes you queasy?

Yeah, Vancouver's pretty bad already. About as bad as we can tolerate right now, so if it became legal and people were smoking everywhere we'd be driven out. Fortunately "Marijuana Day" is only once a year, April 20th, and we stay in our apartment that day.

I would be most in favor of a "ban in public places, do whatever you want in private" sort of policy, with no law against possession, and I'd like employers to still be allowed to not hire someone for using it/smelling like it. Given how the marijuana activists overall like to shove their habit in everyone's faces, that's pretty unlikely to happen, so moving somewhere where I can walk down the street without feeling nauseous and having my boyfriend hack his lungs out would be Option 2. Same as if we had really bad allergies and a sawmill set up shop next door to our apartment.

frugalnacho

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #180 on: July 25, 2014, 09:53:43 AM »
I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here.

Places with severe punishments just for personal use are not places you'd likely move to. Also, isn't pot de facto legal where you're at already? I saw some video where people in BC were smoking at a rally and the police were just standing around directing traffic.

You really think people should be locked up and locked out of jobs because a smell makes you queasy?

Yeah, Vancouver's pretty bad already. About as bad as we can tolerate right now, so if it became legal and people were smoking everywhere we'd be driven out. Fortunately "Marijuana Day" is only once a year, April 20th, and we stay in our apartment that day.

I would be most in favor of a "ban in public places, do whatever you want in private" sort of policy, with no law against possession, and I'd like employers to still be allowed to not hire someone for using it/smelling like it. Given how the marijuana activists overall like to shove their habit in everyone's faces, that's pretty unlikely to happen, so moving somewhere where I can walk down the street without feeling nauseous and having my boyfriend hack his lungs out would be Option 2. Same as if we had really bad allergies and a sawmill set up shop next door to our apartment.

I run into cigarette smoke about 1,000 times more frequently than marijuana smoke in public.   Also I can't believe you would voluntarily live in and support a society that would take people's freedom so unjustly.  That's fucked up.

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #181 on: July 25, 2014, 10:29:17 AM »
Quote
I run into cigarette smoke about 1,000 times more frequently than marijuana smoke in public.   Also I can't believe you would voluntarily live in and support a society that would take people's freedom so unjustly.  That's fucked up.

Me too, but cigarette smoke doesn't make me feel like puking, and doesn't make me cough unless someone blows it right in my face. Also, e-cigarettes/"vapers" are catching on like crazy here, which I think is fantastic - maybe one day there will be an equivalent for weed, if there isn't already?

I'm not willing to subject myself and my boyfriend to serious suffering for the sake of some activists who have some sort of moral opposition to keeping their drug habit at home. I'm very much a "Your right to run around swinging your arms in circles ends where my nose begins" sort of person.

frugalnacho

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #182 on: July 25, 2014, 10:59:00 AM »
Quote
I run into cigarette smoke about 1,000 times more frequently than marijuana smoke in public.   Also I can't believe you would voluntarily live in and support a society that would take people's freedom so unjustly.  That's fucked up.

Me too, but cigarette smoke doesn't make me feel like puking, and doesn't make me cough unless someone blows it right in my face. Also, e-cigarettes/"vapers" are catching on like crazy here, which I think is fantastic - maybe one day there will be an equivalent for weed, if there isn't already?

I'm not willing to subject myself and my boyfriend to serious suffering for the sake of some activists who have some sort of moral opposition to keeping their drug habit at home. I'm very much a "Your right to run around swinging your arms in circles ends where my nose begins" sort of person.

But also because you fear being punched in the nose you are a "Destroy that persons life and put them in prison because they decided to swing their arms wildly in their own home" sort of person.  Which is kind of fucked up. 

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #183 on: July 25, 2014, 11:20:11 AM »
Quote
But also because you fear being punched in the nose you are a "Destroy that persons life and put them in prison because they decided to swing their arms wildly in their own home" sort of person.  Which is kind of fucked up.

Uh, I just said I don't care what people do in their homes. If one day it's completely legalized and people insist on shoving it in my face, and I have no reasonable way to avoid it, I can simply move myself somewhere where they can't do that. Positive impact on both parties - they get to use drugs wherever they want, I get breathable air. However, since I quite like living where I am, I hope it doesn't come to that.

frugalnacho

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #184 on: July 25, 2014, 11:27:37 AM »
Quote
But also because you fear being punched in the nose you are a "Destroy that persons life and put them in prison because they decided to swing their arms wildly in their own home" sort of person.  Which is kind of fucked up.

Uh, I just said I don't care what people do in their homes. If one day it's completely legalized and people insist on shoving it in my face, and I have no reasonable way to avoid it, I can simply move myself somewhere where they can't do that. Positive impact on both parties - they get to use drugs wherever they want, I get breathable air. However, since I quite like living where I am, I hope it doesn't come to that.

You said that you don't care, but you also said "I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here."

That means you are supporting severe punishment for people that use it in their homes, which I think is fucked up. 

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #185 on: July 25, 2014, 11:31:37 AM »
Here in Calif they have banned smoking cigarettes, cigars, and pipes in almost all places - including outdoor places like public parks and beaches. It's to reduce second hand smoke. I imagine if smoking pot was legalized for regular consumption everywhere here (currently just for home use) then smoking it in public would also be a no-no for the same reason smoking cigs in public is. Doesn't mean that people can't eat pot brownies in public but just that they can't smoke it.

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #186 on: July 25, 2014, 11:43:12 AM »
Quote
But also because you fear being punched in the nose you are a "Destroy that persons life and put them in prison because they decided to swing their arms wildly in their own home" sort of person.  Which is kind of fucked up.

Uh, I just said I don't care what people do in their homes. If one day it's completely legalized and people insist on shoving it in my face, and I have no reasonable way to avoid it, I can simply move myself somewhere where they can't do that. Positive impact on both parties - they get to use drugs wherever they want, I get breathable air. However, since I quite like living where I am, I hope it doesn't come to that.

You said that you don't care, but you also said "I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here."

That means you are supporting severe punishment for people that use it in their homes, which I think is fucked up.

No, it means that as a last ditch effort if it was legalized AND people started smoking in public like crazy, I would remove myself from the equation. Not campaign for pot smokers to be thrown in jail, not do anything that harms of even affects smokers in any way, simply leave. My goal is simply to not be exposed to it - I refuse to allow my quality of life to suffer for something like that.

Spartana, I like the sound of that system, unfortunately we don't have the equivalent. There's a tremendous amount of pushback every time someone tries to further restrict smoking here, and the punishments are lax enough that people don't follow the rules even where there are explicit no smoking signs. Maybe one day.

sol

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #187 on: July 25, 2014, 11:46:06 AM »
The rules about public drug use in Washington are pretty clear.  No smoking anywhere regular smoking is banned, including dining establishments, bars, or within 25 feet of a building entrance.  They also made some new rules about smoking anywhere children might be present, like across the street from a school or at public playgrounds.

I think it's interesting that there is so much pushback against those laws, like people feel entitled to smoke those places.  We technically have laws against public consumption of alcohol, too, but the reason people follow those laws isn't because they're afraid of getting arrested, it's because if you get shitfaced drunk at a playground then people generally think you're a degenerate loser.  For some reason the perception of people getting high in in appropriate places is not quite as strong.

brewer12345

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #188 on: July 25, 2014, 12:28:05 PM »
Quote
But also because you fear being punched in the nose you are a "Destroy that persons life and put them in prison because they decided to swing their arms wildly in their own home" sort of person.  Which is kind of fucked up.

Uh, I just said I don't care what people do in their homes. If one day it's completely legalized and people insist on shoving it in my face, and I have no reasonable way to avoid it, I can simply move myself somewhere where they can't do that. Positive impact on both parties - they get to use drugs wherever they want, I get breathable air. However, since I quite like living where I am, I hope it doesn't come to that.

You said that you don't care, but you also said "I would seriously consider uprooting and moving somewhere where it is completely illegal and has severe punishment if it ever became legalized here."

That means you are supporting severe punishment for people that use it in their homes, which I think is fucked up.

No, it means that as a last ditch effort if it was legalized AND people started smoking in public like crazy, I would remove myself from the equation. Not campaign for pot smokers to be thrown in jail, not do anything that harms of even affects smokers in any way, simply leave. My goal is simply to not be exposed to it - I refuse to allow my quality of life to suffer for something like that.

Spartana, I like the sound of that system, unfortunately we don't have the equivalent. There's a tremendous amount of pushback every time someone tries to further restrict smoking here, and the punishments are lax enough that people don't follow the rules even where there are explicit no smoking signs. Maybe one day.

Move to a small town or rural area and you are quite unlikely to run into much pot smoke.

Zikoris

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #189 on: July 25, 2014, 12:33:52 PM »
Quote
Move to a small town or rural area and you are quite unlikely to run into much pot smoke.

I'd love to live in a smaller town again, since I grew up in them, and don't remember public drug use of any kind (though it was a while back). Definitely after retirement we'll try it out and see how that goes. We don't want to leave Canada if we can avoid it, since it really is a great place  to live in every other way.

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #190 on: July 25, 2014, 12:38:54 PM »
Quote
Move to a small town or rural area and you are quite unlikely to run into much pot smoke.

I'd love to live in a smaller town again, since I grew up in them, and don't remember public drug use of any kind (though it was a while back). Definitely after retirement we'll try it out and see how that goes. We don't want to leave Canada if we can avoid it, since it really is a great place  to live in every other way.
well. like I said, there's always Calif :-)! Some cities in Calif have even banned smoking IN YOUR OWN HOME! This is for places like apts, condo's, townhouses and duplexes that have at least one shared wall. Way over the line in terms of personal rights and privacy IMHO but it is gathering steam (or...er...smoke :-)!) in many places here. I imagine that people who smoke pot would also be effected by these kind of bans. Here's one example: http://rt.com/usa/san-rafael-california-smoking-ban-276/
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 12:42:22 PM by Spartana »

frugalnacho

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #191 on: July 25, 2014, 12:49:50 PM »
Quote
Move to a small town or rural area and you are quite unlikely to run into much pot smoke.

I'd love to live in a smaller town again, since I grew up in them, and don't remember public drug use of any kind (though it was a while back). Definitely after retirement we'll try it out and see how that goes. We don't want to leave Canada if we can avoid it, since it really is a great place  to live in every other way.
well. like I said, there's always Calif :-)! Some cities in Calif have even banned smoking IN YOUR OWN HOME! This is for places like apts, condo's, townhouses and duplexes that have at least one shared wall. Way over the line in terms of personal rights and privacy IMHO but it is gathering steam (or...er...smoke :-)!) in many places here. I imagine that people who smoke pot would also be effected by these kind of bans. Here's one example: http://rt.com/usa/san-rafael-california-smoking-ban-276/

As if people who smoke pot care about the law.


Spartana

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #192 on: July 25, 2014, 04:36:13 PM »
Quote
Move to a small town or rural area and you are quite unlikely to run into much pot smoke.

I'd love to live in a smaller town again, since I grew up in them, and don't remember public drug use of any kind (though it was a while back). Definitely after retirement we'll try it out and see how that goes. We don't want to leave Canada if we can avoid it, since it really is a great place  to live in every other way.
well. like I said, there's always Calif :-)! Some cities in Calif have even banned smoking IN YOUR OWN HOME! This is for places like apts, condo's, townhouses and duplexes that have at least one shared wall. Way over the line in terms of personal rights and privacy IMHO but it is gathering steam (or...er...smoke :-)!) in many places here. I imagine that people who smoke pot would also be effected by these kind of bans. Here's one example: http://rt.com/usa/san-rafael-california-smoking-ban-276/

As if people who smoke pot care about the law.


Ha Ha - Anarchists! If they weren't so stoned and relaxed they'd start a violent revolution :-)!

rearly3d

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2014, 10:22:42 AM »
Da Buddha is a fantastic vaporizer, despite having to repair mine a couple times (soldering). For extra frugality, save the spent product for cooking edibles since it still has some potency.

I know personally, I'm a bit more productive when not smoking weed, so I have cut back. I see nothing wrong with indulging some evenings/weekends.

To quote Bill Hicks: “They lie about marijuana. Tell you pot-smoking makes you unmotivated. Lie! When you're high, you can do everything you normally do, just as well. You just realize that it's not worth the fucking effort. There is a difference.”

Dicey

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2014, 01:46:06 PM »
Here in Calif they have banned smoking cigarettes, cigars, and pipes in almost all places - including outdoor places like public parks and beaches. It's to reduce second hand smoke. I imagine if smoking pot was legalized for regular consumption everywhere here (currently just for home use) then smoking it in public would also be a no-no for the same reason smoking cigs in public is. Doesn't mean that people can't eat pot brownies in public but just that they can't smoke it.

[W]ell. like I said, there's always Calif :-)! Some cities in Calif have even banned smoking IN YOUR OWN HOME! This is for places like apts, condo's, townhouses and duplexes that have at least one shared wall. Way over the line in terms of personal rights and privacy IMHO but it is gathering steam (or...er...smoke :-)!) in many places here. I imagine that people who smoke pot would also be effected by these kind of bans. Here's one example: http://rt.com/usa/san-rafael-california-smoking-ban-276/

Spartana, your first brilliant comment had me cheering. The next one induced a flashback.

I used to own a condo. The downstairs "non-smoking" neighbors used to invite friends over frequently. They would all sit outside and smoke on the patio. Even with the windows closed (in the summertime, with no A/C, in California!), the smoke permeated my entire 880sf condo and made it stink for days. Imagine if I was a new parent of an infant, or had an asthmatic child.

Last year, I bought something on Craigslist. When I picked up the item at a high-density apartment building, the person's house reeked of smoke. She explained that she was moving due to the smell. The neighbor's wife wouldn't let him smoke in the "house" so he smoked in the common hallway in front of her window. Yuck. It smelled just like my old place used to. Until these new regulations were put in place, multi-unit dwellers had NO rights.

Fast forward to now. I live in a NorCal city which has recently enacted laws like the ones you cited. Home free for non-smokers, right? Nope. My neighbor smokes some mighty stinky skunkweed. It smells so bad he doesn't smoke it in his own house, he lights up in his back yard. Guess where the smell ends up? The difference is that now I live on a big ol' house. I can close all the windows, crank up the A/C and move to another part of the house. But it still ain't right.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #195 on: July 27, 2014, 12:00:31 PM »
The New York Times Editorial Board is now announcing its full support. It's a pretty big ****ing deal.

Wiggle

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #196 on: July 31, 2014, 02:29:34 PM »
Da Buddha is a fantastic vaporizer, despite having to repair mine a couple times (soldering). For extra frugality, save the spent product for cooking edibles since it still has some potency.

Yes I'm quite happy with my Da Buddha.  I really love being able to control the dose so precisely, it is nice to be able to leave it on for a couple hours and just take a hit occasionally as needed.  My lungs never feel abused from it either.

I'll have to start saving my vaped leftovers.

Beric01

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #197 on: July 31, 2014, 02:41:10 PM »
It's illegal, so I don't do it. If you don't like the law, change it.

Besides, I like to maintain my control over my body as much as possible - hence why I also try to minimize alcohol consumption. I don't want to do something I wouldn't do if I was in my normal state of being.

randymarsh

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #198 on: July 31, 2014, 05:05:20 PM »
It's illegal, so I don't do it. If you don't like the law, change it.

If nobody ever broke stupid laws, laws would never be changed.

Beric01

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Re: Marijuana use - Give your input
« Reply #199 on: July 31, 2014, 06:03:59 PM »
It's illegal, so I don't do it. If you don't like the law, change it.

If nobody ever broke stupid laws, laws would never be changed.

The point of the democratic process is to not need to break the law to get it changed. You can petition your government to modify its positions, and your vote actually has an effect on who is elected. If you reside in a monarchy or a dictatorship, you might need to "break the law to change it", but it's not like people are dying because they can't consume this drug.