Author Topic: Look at this shitty $40 commute!  (Read 4595 times)

HawkeyeNFO

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Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« on: December 05, 2017, 09:10:36 AM »
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/

So they put a new toll on the interstate near my house.  It used to be HOV only during rush hour, but then the state decided they could make money by allowing single drivers on the road, if they paid for it.  It's a 9-mile long stretch that leads into Washington, DC.  The tolls just started this week, and today the tolls reached $40!

I think the funniest part is that this option didn't even exist last week - you HAD to carpool, but it was free.  And you can still carpool and the trip is free.  And on top of that, there is the Metro train running right down the middle of the same highway every few minutes! 

People are so upset about it, calling for investigations.  Idiots.


BeardedMustache

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 09:41:24 AM »
Good, I'm glad they're upset. The reality is that few people are likely to change their behavior and take the free option, but at least they're thinking about it.

mm1970

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 10:13:22 AM »
That's kind of funny. Long ago and far away, I lived in the DC area.  I knew about the toll road.  It was a PITA the 3x a year I wanted to leave work early to drive to western PA to visit family, because the 66 was the easiest way.  One time I tried to go a different way, got lost, it was an hour before I found my way out of Northeast DC (I lived in Arlington, so did I mention I was LOST).  By then the 66 HOV wasn't in effect anymore.

I had many friends who picked up "scabs" or whatever they were called, in order to take HOV. 

zhelud

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 11:27:02 AM »


I had many friends who picked up "scabs" or whatever they were called, in order to take HOV.

"Slugs" are what they were called, for the HOV lanes on 395.

People here are SO complainy about the new tolls. As if someone was forcing them to drive on that road alone every day during rush hour.

Erica

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 12:47:07 PM »
Buy a dummy

Slee_stack

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 12:56:33 PM »
I pay a toll in my area.  I have a 'reverse commute', but it still gets backed up in the regular lanes.

I average $2....per month.  That's about 15 - 20 uses per month.  I hesitate to use it when it gets over $0.40.  $40 is definitely nutty.


Full Beard

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 02:48:26 PM »
That's only one way too!  I'm glad I work at night so I can avoid those tolls.
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Vegasgirl

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 08:07:42 AM »
Thankfully I'll be FIRE before any of this spills over into MD - they are already talking the same type of deal for I-270. Unbelievable.

JoJo

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 04:06:06 PM »
They have this where I live.  Tolls based on usage, and designed to keep the speed around 40mph in the lanes.  Max of $10.  They initially predicted the toll would rarely get to $10, but it seems to be $10 almost every night.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 07:34:36 PM »
I read about this in WaPo and read many of the comments. Sad that so many people are revealing themselves to be economically illiterate in their opposition to this. My prediction is the toll is capped at a uselessly low level.

oldtoyota

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 08:39:00 PM »
I see what you mean about the complaining. However, metro is a mess in terms of safety, expense, and delays.

moof

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 11:03:02 PM »
Public resources open to the highest bidder.  Rich a-holes should not be able to buy their way to the front of the queue for public resources.  Oh well.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 11:10:00 PM »
Public resources open to the highest bidder.  Rich a-holes should not be able to buy their way to the front of the queue for public resources.  Oh well.
Congestion pricing is a mainstream economics solution to overuse of roads. I'm sure your peace of mind is worth more than efficient use of roads, however (not to mention the additional public revenue that is raised and used for things such as improved mass transit).

Ocinfo

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 09:10:04 AM »
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/

So they put a new toll on the interstate near my house.  It used to be HOV only during rush hour, but then the state decided they could make money by allowing single drivers on the road, if they paid for it.  It's a 9-mile long stretch that leads into Washington, DC.  The tolls just started this week, and today the tolls reached $40!

I think the funniest part is that this option didn't even exist last week - you HAD to carpool, but it was free.  And you can still carpool and the trip is free.  And on top of that, there is the Metro train running right down the middle of the same highway every few minutes! 

People are so upset about it, calling for investigations.  Idiots.

I live in DC and commute out to Virginia a few days per week (mix of car and metro depending on time/weather) so I can use 66 without tolls or HOV restrictions. The big issue that you didn’t mention is the expansion of toll/HOV times to start at 5:30AM and 3PM. Many people could previously travel for free (rush times expanded from 2.5 hours to 4 hours) and get to work at a relatively normal office time. This is no longer an option and instead they are being billed ~$10 (each way) for a trip that use to be free. The metro alternative is $5 in parking + $8-$10 round trip, an opportunity to ride the “Orange Crush” and typically longer commute times. This assumes that people driving have/had parking available at work provided by employer, otherwise metro is likely much cheaper.


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EricEng

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2017, 12:51:33 PM »
Expanded HOV hours are what make this brutal.  The option to pay though is welcome even if high.  I used to do a lot of driving in DC in a work vehicle by myself, but since I was on the clock they covered the tolls.  This is a great options for those that need to get around.

Although I must wonder if at $40 per run/$80 per day it wouldn't be cheaper for people to just risk tickets and pay when caught.

HawkeyeNFO

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2017, 02:47:27 PM »
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/

So they put a new toll on the interstate near my house.  It used to be HOV only during rush hour, but then the state decided they could make money by allowing single drivers on the road, if they paid for it.  It's a 9-mile long stretch that leads into Washington, DC.  The tolls just started this week, and today the tolls reached $40!

I think the funniest part is that this option didn't even exist last week - you HAD to carpool, but it was free.  And you can still carpool and the trip is free.  And on top of that, there is the Metro train running right down the middle of the same highway every few minutes! 

People are so upset about it, calling for investigations.  Idiots.

I live in DC and commute out to Virginia a few days per week (mix of car and metro depending on time/weather) so I can use 66 without tolls or HOV restrictions. The big issue that you didn’t mention is the expansion of toll/HOV times to start at 5:30AM and 3PM. Many people could previously travel for free (rush times expanded from 2.5 hours to 4 hours) and get to work at a relatively normal office time. This is no longer an option and instead they are being billed ~$10 (each way) for a trip that use to be free. The metro alternative is $5 in parking + $8-$10 round trip, an opportunity to ride the “Orange Crush” and typically longer commute times. This assumes that people driving have/had parking available at work provided by employer, otherwise metro is likely much cheaper.


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Sorry about your luck if it affects you.  I agree, the state is being greedy, and there was no need to change the hours.

However, you still have options which result in no more expenses than before.  Carpooling / slugging = zero tolls anytime.  Lots of commuter buses into the district and to the Pentagon exist throughout NOVA.  Bike to the Metro or bus stop. Leave earlier or later for your commute.  Take a different road.

Ocinfo

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2017, 03:16:29 PM »
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/

So they put a new toll on the interstate near my house.  It used to be HOV only during rush hour, but then the state decided they could make money by allowing single drivers on the road, if they paid for it.  It's a 9-mile long stretch that leads into Washington, DC.  The tolls just started this week, and today the tolls reached $40!

I think the funniest part is that this option didn't even exist last week - you HAD to carpool, but it was free.  And you can still carpool and the trip is free.  And on top of that, there is the Metro train running right down the middle of the same highway every few minutes! 

People are so upset about it, calling for investigations.  Idiots.

I live in DC and commute out to Virginia a few days per week (mix of car and metro depending on time/weather) so I can use 66 without tolls or HOV restrictions. The big issue that you didn’t mention is the expansion of toll/HOV times to start at 5:30AM and 3PM. Many people could previously travel for free (rush times expanded from 2.5 hours to 4 hours) and get to work at a relatively normal office time. This is no longer an option and instead they are being billed ~$10 (each way) for a trip that use to be free. The metro alternative is $5 in parking + $8-$10 round trip, an opportunity to ride the “Orange Crush” and typically longer commute times. This assumes that people driving have/had parking available at work provided by employer, otherwise metro is likely much cheaper.


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Sorry about your luck if it affects you.  I agree, the state is being greedy, and there was no need to change the hours.

However, you still have options which result in no more expenses than before.  Carpooling / slugging = zero tolls anytime.  Lots of commuter buses into the district and to the Pentagon exist throughout NOVA.  Bike to the Metro or bus stop. Leave earlier or later for your commute.  Take a different road.

Most days, it doesn’t affect me (reverse commute). I agree there are options but the whole process from extending the toll times to basically lying about toll amounts just stinks (now saying that the average is an average of all trip lengths). Maybe it would have been OK if they actually built the 3rd lane on 66 but instead that will come sometime later.


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JoJo

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 03:44:22 PM »
They have this where I live.  Tolls based on usage, and designed to keep the speed around 40mph in the lanes.  Max of $10.  They initially predicted the toll would rarely get to $10, but it seems to be $10 almost every night.

Heard on the radio this morning that the legislature is considering removing the $10 cap and tweaking the sensors so it catches congestion and raises the tolls quicker. 

They've obviously been watching the news.  $40 tolls here we come too.

big_slacker

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 06:58:05 PM »
They implemented this scheme/scam in WA on 405. The general use lanes haven't gotten better, there is still significant backup because they spent money building extra toll lanes but left existing bottlenecks. The state has made triple the expected revenue and they're now ramping up lobbying to raise the max toll from $10 to who knows what. They're also not meeting the traffic flow standards they're supposed to by law, the state is blaming..... RAIN, in the Seattle area, lol!

Wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing the same thing as the ridiculousness above. :(

theglidd

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2017, 07:45:31 AM »
I take 66 everyday (I get on closer to the city). I'm fairly certain the tolls were put into place so the typical HOV violators have to pay something to use the road.

I'd say on any given day about 50% of the riders (before the toll was put into place) had one person in the car. Enforcement was basically impossible.

HawkeyeNFO

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2017, 07:50:39 AM »
$44 yesterday.

the_fixer

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 09:04:03 AM »
I am in the camp that people should be angry about toll roads as it just another tax that they can hit us with often without voter approval.

You pay taxes on your fuel, fees and taxes for your car every year as well as the standard taxes.

I understand a temporary toll / tax to pay for a bridge or road from time to time when money is short but now days they put a toll road in place and they keep raising the rate untill the point where people stop taking it.

And instead of spending the money on lightrail and other mass transit they just keep adding toll lanes and reducing the standard lanes causing traffic to find other routes.


It pushes traffic off of the toll way and into side roads in neighborhoods causing traffic problems and causing the roads to wear out faster than planned for.

Take hwy 36 here in the Denver metro area, they just added toll lanes yet they refuse to add lightrail service to Boulder from Denver claiming that there would not be enough people using the lightrail to justify it. Anyone that knows the area knows that hwy 36 has always been a traffic issue and should have been one of the first light rail lines built.

I am all for reducing the amount if cars on the roadways but this is just a tax, they are not addressing mass transit.

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mm1970

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2017, 10:31:33 AM »
https://wtop.com/dc-transit/2017/12/dynamic-tolls-66-climb-36/

So they put a new toll on the interstate near my house.  It used to be HOV only during rush hour, but then the state decided they could make money by allowing single drivers on the road, if they paid for it.  It's a 9-mile long stretch that leads into Washington, DC.  The tolls just started this week, and today the tolls reached $40!

I think the funniest part is that this option didn't even exist last week - you HAD to carpool, but it was free.  And you can still carpool and the trip is free.  And on top of that, there is the Metro train running right down the middle of the same highway every few minutes! 

People are so upset about it, calling for investigations.  Idiots.

I live in DC and commute out to Virginia a few days per week (mix of car and metro depending on time/weather) so I can use 66 without tolls or HOV restrictions. The big issue that you didn’t mention is the expansion of toll/HOV times to start at 5:30AM and 3PM. Many people could previously travel for free (rush times expanded from 2.5 hours to 4 hours) and get to work at a relatively normal office time. This is no longer an option and instead they are being billed ~$10 (each way) for a trip that use to be free. The metro alternative is $5 in parking + $8-$10 round trip, an opportunity to ride the “Orange Crush” and typically longer commute times. This assumes that people driving have/had parking available at work provided by employer, otherwise metro is likely much cheaper.


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Sorry about your luck if it affects you.  I agree, the state is being greedy, and there was no need to change the hours.

However, you still have options which result in no more expenses than before.  Carpooling / slugging = zero tolls anytime.  Lots of commuter buses into the district and to the Pentagon exist throughout NOVA.  Bike to the Metro or bus stop. Leave earlier or later for your commute.  Take a different road.
Oh yeah, slugs!

The Orange Crush.  Back when I took the metro, I took Orange to Blue.  On the way home for sure, switching back from blue to Orange, I would wait 2-3 trains until I could even get on the train.

Most people I know who lived out in NoVa carpooled, because even way back when it was $75-100 a month to park.  (early 1990s).  Then they moved the office (after I Left) from NoVA to the Navy Yard, which I assume means the commute sucked even more, but maybe parking was free?

dougules

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2017, 11:10:47 AM »
I normally would be annoyed by a state letting rich people bypass the carpool requirement, but it seems like in this case it might actually highlight the the value of carpooling/slugs. 

Does the system actually manage to keep from slowing down the actual HOV drivers?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2017, 12:23:37 PM »
The system is working as designed. The whole point of carpool lanes is to give people a faster trip in exchange for adding less traffic to the road than they could if they were driving individually.

Sometimes those lanes are underutilized and could still be moving at a pretty good speed even if you added a few more cars. Adding those few cars would in turn reduce the traffic in the other lanes, speeding things up a bit for everyone.

However, you can't just open the carpool lanes up to everyone. That would remove most of the incentive to carpool in the first place. If you're going to allow some single drivers into the carpool lane, you need to have some system to make sure there aren't too many. Market pricing is an effective system to do that. It isn't very egalitarian, true, but it gets the job done better than anything else I can think of.

Furthermore, any sort of cap you put on the toll for single drivers ensures that there will be some times where so many people are willing to pay the toll that the carpool lane gets unacceptably slow for the carpool drivers. Remember the point of the carpool lane: make traffic better for everyone by giving a real incentive not to drive alone. Remove that incentive by filling up the carpool lane with too many single drivers who are willing to pay $10, and that incentive goes away, making traffic worse for everyone.
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big_slacker

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2017, 02:25:56 PM »
Working as designed from an engineering standpoint, only sorta as they're not meeting their numbers but are tripling their revenue projections. It's hard not to be cynical about this. Especially given that you're allowing people with more money to keep being single occupant vehicles but buy their way into a faster commute and BTW fill up/slow down the carpool lane while they're doing it. You can try to sell that if you're going to make money from it by playing up the side benefits. Or you can do what I guess you're doing by trying to be pragmatic and realizing the side benefits of a pretty bad and unfair system. I'm not discounting that some cars get out of the pleb lanes and make traffic flow better. I'm saying challenge all of the assumptions (Like do empty  carpool lanes actually work taking cars off the road? Or are they a feel good as an example) and come up with a better more fair system.

But I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just some elitist Bellevue dweller than rides his bike to work or works from home. :D

The system is working as designed. The whole point of carpool lanes is to give people a faster trip in exchange for adding less traffic to the road than they could if they were driving individually.

Sometimes those lanes are underutilized and could still be moving at a pretty good speed even if you added a few more cars. Adding those few cars would in turn reduce the traffic in the other lanes, speeding things up a bit for everyone.

However, you can't just open the carpool lanes up to everyone. That would remove most of the incentive to carpool in the first place. If you're going to allow some single drivers into the carpool lane, you need to have some system to make sure there aren't too many. Market pricing is an effective system to do that. It isn't very egalitarian, true, but it gets the job done better than anything else I can think of.

Furthermore, any sort of cap you put on the toll for single drivers ensures that there will be some times where so many people are willing to pay the toll that the carpool lane gets unacceptably slow for the carpool drivers. Remember the point of the carpool lane: make traffic better for everyone by giving a real incentive not to drive alone. Remove that incentive by filling up the carpool lane with too many single drivers who are willing to pay $10, and that incentive goes away, making traffic worse for everyone.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 02:29:07 PM by big_slacker »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2017, 07:59:38 PM »
I'm saying challenge all of the assumptions (Like do empty  carpool lanes actually work taking cars off the road? Or are they a feel good as an example) and come up with a better more fair system.

Empty carpool lanes clearly took no cars off the road; they're empty! However I've never seen a truly empty carpool lane around here. Seems like the carpool lane is clogged almost as bad as the rest of the lanes half the time I try to use it, which is what you would expect on a four-lane highway where at least a quarter of the vehicles are carpools. A quarter of the people not driving alone doesn't seem like it should be that high of a bar, right?

I guess if you really don't want people paying more for a fast lane, you could use some sort of random lottery based on license plate numbers or something. Use the first letter in the plate; if the carpool lane is pretty empty you let a bunch of letters in, if it's pretty full you let only one or two, or even zero. Or you could just go back to the old way where the carpool lane is just a carpool lane. That would be fine with me.

Of course if you quit charging tolls to people who value their time more than their money, we'll all have to pay a bit more in taxes to make up for the lost revenue. There's no free lunch.

Quote
But I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just some elitist Bellevue dweller than rides his bike to work or works from home. :D

I have also structured my life to avoid the freeways during commute hours. It's pretty great.
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big_slacker

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2017, 09:22:02 PM »
I'm saying challenge all of the assumptions (Like do empty  carpool lanes actually work taking cars off the road? Or are they a feel good as an example) and come up with a better more fair system.

Empty carpool lanes clearly took no cars off the road; they're empty! However I've never seen a truly empty carpool lane around here. Seems like the carpool lane is clogged almost as bad as the rest of the lanes half the time I try to use it, which is what you would expect on a four-lane highway where at least a quarter of the vehicles are carpools. A quarter of the people not driving alone doesn't seem like it should be that high of a bar, right?

I guess if you really don't want people paying more for a fast lane, you could use some sort of random lottery based on license plate numbers or something. Use the first letter in the plate; if the carpool lane is pretty empty you let a bunch of letters in, if it's pretty full you let only one or two, or even zero. Or you could just go back to the old way where the carpool lane is just a carpool lane. That would be fine with me.

Of course if you quit charging tolls to people who value their time more than their money, we'll all have to pay a bit more in taxes to make up for the lost revenue. There's no free lunch.

Quote
But I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just some elitist Bellevue dweller than rides his bike to work or works from home. :D

I have also structured my life to avoid the freeways during commute hours. It's pretty great.

My point with the carpool lanes is that if the problem is there is a lane few are using enough of the time that you need to add more people to them/take people out of other lanes to make traffic flow maybe examine if those lanes are actually working to take a significant number of cars off the road in the first place, enough to justify having such a lane. If not, consider making them general use lanes. Also re-examine if all the money spent building toll lanes could have been put to better use fixing some of the known chokepoints (Like bothell) that cause the congestion in the first place.

Or everyone can just take the 54 billion dollar train in 20 years. :D

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2017, 12:20:03 AM »
The system is working as designed. The whole point of carpool lanes is to give people a faster trip in exchange for adding less traffic to the road than they could if they were driving individually.

Sometimes those lanes are underutilized and could still be moving at a pretty good speed even if you added a few more cars. Adding those few cars would in turn reduce the traffic in the other lanes, speeding things up a bit for everyone.

However, you can't just open the carpool lanes up to everyone. That would remove most of the incentive to carpool in the first place. If you're going to allow some single drivers into the carpool lane, you need to have some system to make sure there aren't too many. Market pricing is an effective system to do that. It isn't very egalitarian, true, but it gets the job done better than anything else I can think of.

Furthermore, any sort of cap you put on the toll for single drivers ensures that there will be some times where so many people are willing to pay the toll that the carpool lane gets unacceptably slow for the carpool drivers. Remember the point of the carpool lane: make traffic better for everyone by giving a real incentive not to drive alone. Remove that incentive by filling up the carpool lane with too many single drivers who are willing to pay $10, and that incentive goes away, making traffic worse for everyone.
Someone who gets it. I wonder how the people who don't get it feel about global warming or vaccines... The price mechanism is a depressingly misunderstood solution to these problems.

EmFrugal

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2017, 11:56:05 AM »
In addition to the metro running right along 66, there is also a nearby bike path that goes into DC. My husband walks to the metro most days and rides it regularly. He never drives in because we are a one car family and parking costs are high at his office. We also just don't support driving commutes when mass transit is so close by.

During metro construction there were some delays but his commutes have mostly been seamless. I don't understand the safety issues of riding metro a previous poster described. Maybe late at night on certain lines? But I agree, if we care at all about the environment people need to start taking metro or biking the W&OD. It's just ridiculous not to (unless you have extenuating circumstances).

FenderBender

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Re: Look at this shitty $40 commute!
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »
In addition to the metro running right along 66, there is also a nearby bike path that goes into DC. My husband walks to the metro most days and rides it regularly. He never drives in because we are a one car family and parking costs are high at his office. We also just don't support driving commutes when mass transit is so close by.

During metro construction there were some delays but his commutes have mostly been seamless. I don't understand the safety issues of riding metro a previous poster described. Maybe late at night on certain lines? But I agree, if we care at all about the environment people need to start taking metro or biking the W&OD. It's just ridiculous not to (unless you have extenuating circumstances).

There are only so many seats on metro so if even a 1/4 of those drivers were to hit mass transit, there would be huge wait times, so long they wouldn't get to work at all.  It doesn't take much to bring mass transit to the brink and whenever I rode mass transit, a slight delay and everyone is huffing and puffing like the world is coming to an end. 

And not many really care about the environment, at least, it doesn't seem to me many people are truly willing to suffer to help the environment.   Recycle - big whoop, so easy, but they pat themselves on the back for it.  That's about as far as most go. I rented my upstairs apt to a 26 year old grad student, his mom is a climate scientists, he said, the AC ran into the middle of October and when she visited, while the weather was quite nice, the AC was still blasting.  I live within a mile of the school, he drove even while having a bike.  He was vested in climate science too, said he couldn't work for an oil company, would disappoint his mom, one day in passing I mentioned how hot it was, he said, its going to get a lot hotter.  I had to laugh.  All talk no action was my thinking and here in these United States is what I mostly see.   When I lived in the SF Bay Area, those too are hypocrites, they talk, but they don't act.  Actually all of CA is so zoned that on any given day to run errands, it requires a vehicle, because every imaginable business type is in a zone.  When I was growing up, my dentist and doctor operated from their home, try that in CA, the neighbors will complain.  Another bone I have picked with CA is the overtime after 8 hours of work law, the law is for union members, because they benefit greatly and union leadership literally owns politicians in CA, it won't ever change, but here's the deal, tens of millions of retail workers, fast food and walmart types, these people get 6 hours maximum because of that law so that's the company workaround, schedule max 6 unless in a supervisor role, but 6 hours isn't enough to survive so after commuting to job 1, millions commute to job 2 for 6 more hours.  The law is hard on the environment and hard on workers at the bottom, but bet your last dollar union leadership will never allow it to change.  Meanwhile my wife's 80 year old mother lives in the Philippines where it is very hot with no AC and NO LIE, when she has to enter the hospital for whatever illness, she wants a room without AC.  Yeah, they actually have rooms without AC.  Try that in the US.  Try that in any gov't building in the US.  Most people in the US and other countries with western values just won't accept much discomfort even to save the planet.  Their way to save the planet is to find a less resource intensive way to provide AC, but they still want their AC.  The same goes with other comforts.   In the summer, they baby the kids, if it is too hot, schools that aren't air conditioned close.  Just f'ing amazing.  Oh crap, how awful, kids sweating so much they can't concentrate.  It is so freaking laughable. But you know, the US has standards ... standards for wasting natural resources, that is.  When traveling abroad it is so easy to see the US as a massive population of snowflakes.