Author Topic: Long Term Care Insurance  (Read 23055 times)

Daisy

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2014, 08:51:30 PM »
Personally I think a facility is a much better idea for socializing and for all the different types of daily therapy (and much less stressful on the caregivers) but either not everyone wants to be there, or they may have behavioral problems preventing them from being there.

I agree with your statement, but unfortunately my parents don't. They don't want to move anywhere even though they both now have trouble walking and can't drive and live in suburbia. They are mentally sharp but need help with the mobility issues.

We have a lady spend the day with them and cook and drive them around, but then on the weekends me and my sibs get a bunch of requests for chores, companionship, food delivery, etc. We are happy to provide it, but realize they would be better off socially in a community of their peers. We tried to get them to move last year, but found stiff resistance.

I fear that out of my 3 sibs and I, I am the only one that has expressed interest in taking more care of them. My brother and sister-in-law told me that I can't "sacrifice my life" for them. But I figure since I want to FIRE anyways, if things start to get worse soon, I can just FIRE myself and take better care of them. We were raised in a culture where multiple generations live together and take care of each other, but now that we're in the good-ole USA my siblings think it would be too much of a sacrifice to do. But I don't quite see it that way since they sacrificed a lot of their youth for us. They definitely expect the family to take care of them.

Oh, and thanks for that link to the guy with Alzheimers. I sent it to my Dad as he is a very positive person and will get a lot of joy in reading it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 08:53:25 PM by Daisy »

Bob W

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2014, 10:03:02 AM »
Personally I think a facility is a much better idea for socializing and for all the different types of daily therapy (and much less stressful on the caregivers) but either not everyone wants to be there, or they may have behavioral problems preventing them from being there.

I agree with your statement, but unfortunately my parents don't. They don't want to move anywhere even though they both now have trouble walking and can't drive and live in suburbia. They are mentally sharp but need help with the mobility issues.

We have a lady spend the day with them and cook and drive them around, but then on the weekends me and my sibs get a bunch of requests for chores, companionship, food delivery, etc. We are happy to provide it, but realize they would be better off socially in a community of their peers. We tried to get them to move last year, but found stiff resistance.

I fear that out of my 3 sibs and I, I am the only one that has expressed interest in taking more care of them. My brother and sister-in-law told me that I can't "sacrifice my life" for them. But I figure since I want to FIRE anyways, if things start to get worse soon, I can just FIRE myself and take better care of them. We were raised in a culture where multiple generations live together and take care of each other, but now that we're in the good-ole USA my siblings think it would be too much of a sacrifice to do. But I don't quite see it that way since they sacrificed a lot of their youth for us. They definitely expect the family to take care of them.

Oh, and thanks for that link to the guy with Alzheimers. I sent it to my Dad as he is a very positive person and will get a lot of joy in reading it.

God bless you!  I am afraid my children will definitely op out of taking care of me.   I rarely see them as is.   

So I'll still stuck with the dilemma of funding either LTCI or amassing lots of funds.   

My premise here on this site is that many people are considering themselves FI when in fact they are very,  very far from that.    Without LTCI they are at risk. 

Take MMM for example -- should he fall from that roof he always seems to be on,  or get hit on that bike he is always riding he could easily be paralyzed or have a head injury.   His family assets would quickly deplete with the cost of care and he would most likely eventually end up on Medicaid.  I am assuming he does not have LTCI of course.   

Christopher Reeves is an example of this.   His cost of care far exceeded his assets and health insurance.   

I work in the disability field and am aware that a fair percentage of people will end up needing long term care.   

Still trying to figure out an option C?

So far it is A -  LTCI   or B -- have massive investment assets.   If B is chosen it is unlikely I will ever amass assets enough to cover the risks.

I'm perfectly fine going without life insurance but should I be fine without LTCI?


Nords

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2014, 11:11:30 AM »
God bless you!  I am afraid my children will definitely op out of taking care of me.   I rarely see them as is.   
I smell fear marketing of the finest kind.  Well played, sir!

People buy life insurance to help their survivors recover from a financial disaster.  They should not buy life insurance to set up survivors with food, shelter, transportation, and Internet access for the rest of their lives.

People buy long-term care insurance to defray the expense of care, not to pay for every single penny of the expense.  You laid out Option A and Option B to anchor people's decisions to one or the other, but you kinda neglected to point out Option C (family home care) or Option D (Medicaid). 

I agree that the "easy" answer for financially independent people is long-term care insurance.  However the industry has succeeded in chasing market share while mismanaging risk and incorrectly assessing the lapse rate of their insured policy holders.  In other words I'd rather use Options C & D than worry about 50% premium price hikes or the possibility that my policy will have to be capped while the state regulator finds another company to take over the "failed" insurer.  Maybe someday the industry will restore our faith in their ability to keep the promises we've been paying for.  However my experiences with one of the largest, John Hancock, have been discouraging.
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/12/06/interview-whats-wrong-with-long-term-care-insurance/
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/11/30/geriatric-financial-management-update/

Daisy

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2014, 11:20:14 AM »
God bless you!  I am afraid my children will definitely op out of taking care of me.   I rarely see them as is.   

So I'll still stuck with the dilemma of funding either LTCI or amassing lots of funds.   

My premise here on this site is that many people are considering themselves FI when in fact they are very,  very far from that.    Without LTCI they are at risk. 

Take MMM for example -- should he fall from that roof he always seems to be on,  or get hit on that bike he is always riding he could easily be paralyzed or have a head injury.   His family assets would quickly deplete with the cost of care and he would most likely eventually end up on Medicaid.  I am assuming he does not have LTCI of course.   

Christopher Reeves is an example of this.   His cost of care far exceeded his assets and health insurance.   

I work in the disability field and am aware that a fair percentage of people will end up needing long term care.   

Still trying to figure out an option C?

So far it is A -  LTCI   or B -- have massive investment assets.   If B is chosen it is unlikely I will ever amass assets enough to cover the risks.

I'm perfectly fine going without life insurance but should I be fine without LTCI?

It's so sad that the more affluent we get, that sometimes the family and community ties loosen.

A friend of mine commented that to me when she was trying to organize family and friends beach days close to where she lives. Both she and I are first generation Americans and we have been able to succeed here in the USA. When we were children, the families did not have a lot of money so our get togethers would be all day events at the beach with every family bringing some homemade food, the cousins playing football on the sand and generally goofing off all day in the water. Fast forward to now, and everyone is so busy with multiple activities, working, etc., that it's a struggle to get them to come over to the beach sometimes.

My friend's husband is actually an immigrant himself (and doing well with advanced degrees and such) and his family is a little closer to the norm when we grew up. Whenever she plans an event at the beach, they all show up, bring food, hang out the whole day and have a great time. Her family, on the other hand - she has to struggle to get them to at least pop in for a visit. Then she mentions to them the difference between the families.

We have a lot of conveniences that make our lives easier, but sometimes at the detriment of helping each other out. A small but relevant example is when I tried to get my brother to pick me up at the airport after a long trip. They had all wanted to get together that afternoon so I suggested they pick me up and we meet close to my house since I was returning from a long trip. They balked saying the airport drive was too out-of-the-way and I had to take a shuttle instead. "Back in the day" - these shuttles didn't exist and everyone helped each other out. So it's a good convenience, but it detracts from the sense of community we used to have. I don't mean to make my brother sound heartless and we do help each other out in many other ways, but that particular incident really annoyed me. We ended up not getting together that afternoon.

As far as LTC insurance - I agree that many younger people on these forums are looking at their current spending and assuming it will continue in to the future. But, I just don't think you can totally adequately prepare for some of these high costs. You have to balance mid-life you with senior you. If you just keep working until you are 70, then you will miss out on some pretty good years of FIRE.

I think someone else mentioned on this thread that the current system seems so unsustainable with health costs rising above inflation, that there is no way that can continue. I tend to agree with that. As it is, unless you are super rich or pay into an expensive LTC insurance plan, you won't be able to fund these costs. I am adding buffer in my budget, but am willing to take that risk if it comes to it.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 11:23:08 AM by Daisy »

Bob W

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2014, 11:31:55 AM »
God bless you!  I am afraid my children will definitely op out of taking care of me.   I rarely see them as is.   
I smell fear marketing of the finest kind.  Well played, sir!

People buy life insurance to help their survivors recover from a financial disaster.  They should not buy life insurance to set up survivors with food, shelter, transportation, and Internet access for the rest of their lives.

People buy long-term care insurance to defray the expense of care, not to pay for every single penny of the expense.  You laid out Option A and Option B to anchor people's decisions to one or the other, but you kinda neglected to point out Option C (family home care) or Option D (Medicaid). 

I agree that the "easy" answer for financially independent people is long-term care insurance.  However the industry has succeeded in chasing market share while mismanaging risk and incorrectly assessing the lapse rate of their insured policy holders.  In other words I'd rather use Options C & D than worry about 50% premium price hikes or the possibility that my policy will have to be capped while the state regulator finds another company to take over the "failed" insurer.  Maybe someday the industry will restore our faith in their ability to keep the promises we've been paying for.  However my experiences with one of the largest, John Hancock, have been discouraging.
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/12/06/interview-whats-wrong-with-long-term-care-insurance/
http://the-military-guide.com/2011/11/30/geriatric-financial-management-update/


Did a quick look at some LTCI option Cs.    It seems there are Life Insurance Policies that can be converted to pay for healthcare costs should the need arise.   I will explore this more as time allows.

One example on bankrate.com stated that for a one time premium one could have 2.5 times the coverage.  So for example if I put 100k in then I would be eligible for 2.5K in Long term care funding if needed.   If not needed then the policy would pass to the kiddos without a taxable event.   

Seems like something to consider.   Will look a little more.    I haven't read all the posts on the thread yet to see if this was mentioned.  (at work)

castoriehandley93

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2014, 12:58:39 AM »
I can see that the major problem is the mentality of I-am-struggling-why-would-I-even-buy-such-an-expensive-insurance-policy. Well, there's no blame in that. People will always prioritize what they deem is important, and in this case, purchasing long-term care insurance. Companies such as AARP I heard are okay so I think that your guy will do just fine. Afterall, its peace of mind that he is truly seeking here.

DarinC

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #56 on: August 02, 2014, 12:35:35 PM »
This is a difficult choice. My mother has Parkinson's and my grandmother Dementia. If I didn't live with them and facilitate many things they would likely require individual care, which is shockingly expensive.

Fortunately, depending of course on the specifics of the illness, it's surprising how independent people can be with the right kind of help. There are things they simply cannot do any more, but living with someone and supporting them in terms of doing what they can't do, as well as helping them do what they can do, is IMO a better situation than where most people end up.

In addition, while Medicare part A won't handle skilled care for a whole year, combined with separate plans that may be an option. My mom for instance has an old Kaiser plan from when she was working with the USPS. It's ~$180/month and is pretty good overall, but the best part is that it provides skilled nursing care. Between Part A and her Kaiser plan, she could stay indefinitely in a skilled nursing facility if need be, and it's far less expensive than long term care insurance assuming they would even let her enroll.

castoriehandley93

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2014, 11:11:08 PM »
I personally think that you should go for it while your both still healthy and uhm quite young. The longer you wait, the more risky and expensive things will likely become. Consider this, what if you in the process one of you decides to purchase one but something happened, say a stroke of some kind. Though experts will still suggest that you buy one, many companies will offer a more expensive long-term care insurance policy because of your preexisting medical condition.

It's a tricky world out there and the best way for you to win is to play it smart and cool. Or if you're both adventurous, you can leave yourselves exposed and wish for the best.

Nords

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2014, 12:16:07 AM »
I personally think that you should go for it while your both still healthy and uhm quite young.

Quote
Part-time writer at www.acsia.com.

Quote
ACSIAŽ Long Term Care, Inc. is a proud member of the National LTC Network, the industry's premier group of Managing General Agencies. The National LTC Network is dedicated to improving the design, distribution and marketing of private long term care insurance and the quality of long term care education for the benefit of the consumer and the agent.
Hmm.  "Personally" or "professionally"?

brewer12345

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2014, 09:15:31 AM »
I personally think that you should go for it while your both still healthy and uhm quite young.

Quote
Part-time writer at www.acsia.com.

Quote
ACSIAŽ Long Term Care, Inc. is a proud member of the National LTC Network, the industry's premier group of Managing General Agencies. The National LTC Network is dedicated to improving the design, distribution and marketing of private long term care insurance and the quality of long term care education for the benefit of the consumer and the agent.
Hmm.  "Personally" or "professionally"?

"I'll take Scumbag Insurance Marketers for $1,000, Alex..."

castoriehandley93

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2014, 06:16:08 PM »
I'm thinking personally. But, hey, the guy asked for advice and I gave mine.

Yankuba

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Re: Long Term Care Insurance
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2015, 05:13:44 PM »
Commenting to follow

An article from the NYT:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/26/business/long-term-care-insurance-can-be-costly-but-effective.html?emc=eta1&referer=

My uncle is a public policy professor and we chatted about this over email. One thing of interest:

"Another exception: Among those who have no kin-provided LTC, Medicaid is the main provider. But that is means-tested. If your income is greater than about 138% of the Federal Poverty Level and your assets (aside from the home you live in and one old car) total more than $4,000 you can't get Medicaid. If you have more than that, you have to spend your own money on LTC until you "spend down" to the required level.

This "spend-down" is a heartbreaking story. Most elderly do not have a lot saved up but what they do have of their lifetime savings and investments disappears very quickly (in most cases within 3 - 6 months, rarely more than a year) as they become disabled and need LTC services (especially nursing home care) that cannot be provided by a spouse or other kin. I routinely speak to middle class professional people who retired at 65 or 70 with half a million dollars in savings, and 5 years later they are on Medicaid.

Beyond that, unless you are a veteran, there is no free LTC. If you don't have LTCI, you have to pay for any LTC services you get that is not from family. At market rates, it is devilishly expensive. Unless you are fabulously wealthy, you will be working at your own "spend-down" until whatever wealth you have is spent down to qualify for Medicaid."
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 05:32:12 PM by Yankuba »

 

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