Poll

When it comes to politics, are you more liberal or conservative?

Liberal
189 (54.2%)
Conservative
53 (15.2%)
Populist
7 (2%)
Libertarian
100 (28.7%)

Total Members Voted: 340

Voting closed: January 20, 2016, 12:02:22 PM

Author Topic: Liberal or Conservative?  (Read 67075 times)

TheInsuranceMan

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Liberal or Conservative?
« on: January 15, 2016, 12:02:22 PM »
Okay, I don't post on this site much, but was reading the "Overheard at work" thread, and saw the last two pages revolved heavily around some political banter.  I've also noticed trends on this site which makes me believe most MMMers are left leaning.  Now, I'm using conservative and liberal, instead of Republican and Democrat, because I think it is easier to align your self with those views, versus tying yourself to one part.  Now, while I'm a conservative, I'm not a straight ticket voter, and I believe both sides of the table have things that I agree, and disagree with. 

So, which way do you lean?

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2016, 12:06:42 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc


ie Not feeling the BERN, Not feeling whatever it is Trump is, Not feeling just about anyone in this shit-show of an election

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 12:08:03 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc

I thought about adding more options....give me a list of what you want Roboturner, and I'll happily add them.  I only picked two as to try to get a general consensus on how people feel when it comes to politics.  But then again, there are probably a TON of poll options you could add...

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 12:08:48 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc

I thought about adding more options....give me a list of what you want Roboturner, and I'll happily add them.  I only picked two as to try to get a general consensus on how people feel when it comes to politics.  But then again, there are probably a TON of poll options you could add...

Eh, I take that back.  I'm going to leave the poll options as they sit, and we'll see what kind of responses we get.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 12:10:43 PM »
Definitely lean liberal (which seems to mean more sort of progressive than Adam Smith liberal), but happily take my left-wing friends to task when I think they're being inconsistent.   I was registered briefly as a Republican when I started voting, but because Philadelphia city politics are Tammany Hall-style Democratic-run bullshit, and coming of age post 9-11 quickly cured me of that leaning.

I wonder if we can use different terms for the poll, especially given the international nature of this site.  I think that, clasically (and for our non-American readers):
  • liberal means Adam Smith-style low interference, but also pro-civil rights, separation of church and state, the pro-business party
  • conservative means using the government to step in and protect a certain social order (usually the historically dominant one, i.e. Christianity and rights for white land-owning men).  I think maternity leave is classically a conservative position, to allow traditional gender roles to continue, although now other group have picked it up for their own reasons.
  • progressive means using the government to protect the economically (and maybe racially, etc) disadvantage, breaking up monopolies, etc.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 12:10:47 PM »
Liberal, Conservative, Populist, and Libertarian

That's about as broad as you can get I think

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 12:13:55 PM »
Liberal, Conservative, Populist, and Libertarian

That's about as broad as you can get I think

Okay, poll updated.

andy85

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 12:14:59 PM »
already voted conservative before the update...but i retract that vote and vote libertarian.

pompera_firpa

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 12:16:16 PM »
I'm apparently the most liberal person that my mom has ever met, but she says she still loves me, so there's that...

katsiki

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 12:16:33 PM »
Conservative Libertarian here

Indexer

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 12:18:09 PM »
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 12:18:39 PM »
Found this pretty basic explanation, which although is very generalized, should be fine enough for the basics

Libertarian/Progressive: typically focusing on non-governmental solutions and private decision-making in both the social and economic dimensions. "Libertarian" is the philosophy that summarizes "socially liberal and fiscally conservative". (Progressive/Libertarian being combined as both the same thing just with a right/left tinge

Liberal: typically focusing on helping needy members of society, and using government to achieve societal good; government intervention only in economic matters.

Conservative: typically focusing on fiscal frugality, strength abroad, and moral integrity; government intervention acceptable in social and personal matters.

Populist: typically focusing on local solutions instead of federal action, on decentralizing power, and on religion as the basis for societal good.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2016, 12:19:59 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc

ie Not feeling the BERN, Not feeling whatever it is Trump is, Not feeling just about anyone in this shit-show of an election

Agree with more options and with your four recommendations.  I think populist might map well to my progressive, but I think you could also argue Trump and Sanders are both populists.

My husband is really feeling the BERN, but my workplace seems to be center-left.  I think Sanders has some great criticisms of the system, but no concrete ideas for fixing it.  He seems very good at placing blame and reallocating burdens, but not actual improvements.   I'm not impressed by Clinton either, and the Republicans seem to be trying to out crazy each other on a national level, so I'll probably vote for whoever I think keeps me from a President Carson.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2016, 12:23:03 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc

ie Not feeling the BERN, Not feeling whatever it is Trump is, Not feeling just about anyone in this shit-show of an election

Agree with more options and with your four recommendations.  I think populist might map well to my progressive, but I think you could also argue Trump and Sanders are both populists.

My husband is really feeling the BERN, but my workplace seems to be center-left.  I think Sanders has some great criticisms of the system, but no concrete ideas for fixing it.  He seems very good at placing blame and reallocating burdens, but not actual improvements.   I'm not impressed by Clinton either, and the Republicans seem to be trying to out crazy each other on a national level, so I'll probably vote for whoever I think keeps me from a President Carson.

I liked some of the stuff Kasich was talking about before he felt the need to "turn up the crazy" to compete with the circus

Chris22

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2016, 12:27:51 PM »
Conservative on fiscal and defense issues, liberal/libertarian on social ones.  I feel far more strongly on fiscal/defense issues than I do on social ones (as a straight married male), so I identify as conservative even though I'm embarrassed by a lot of conservative social stances.

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2016, 12:29:11 PM »
I ride the rail pretty consistently (pragmatic centrist is my favorite buzz word), you should add more options "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" etc

ie Not feeling the BERN, Not feeling whatever it is Trump is, Not feeling just about anyone in this shit-show of an election

Agree with more options and with your four recommendations.  I think populist might map well to my progressive, but I think you could also argue Trump and Sanders are both populists.

My husband is really feeling the BERN, but my workplace seems to be center-left.  I think Sanders has some great criticisms of the system, but no concrete ideas for fixing it.  He seems very good at placing blame and reallocating burdens, but not actual improvements.   I'm not impressed by Clinton either, and the Republicans seem to be trying to out crazy each other on a national level, so I'll probably vote for whoever I think keeps me from a President Carson.

I know the poll is pretty general, and I apologize for that, but I still think it will allow us to see which way most in this forum lean, when it comes to politics.  And, I agree that the Republicans are a little off their rocker, but the Dem options aren't any better.  Trump is getting his publicity because he doesn't care what people think, he talks about things that people shuffle next to instead of addressing.  However, I haven't heard much of a game plan, in relation to actual policies, that he has ever outlined.

Here, we are right of center, with little doubt.  Very rural setting, very heavy Republican views in our small town and rural areas, and it fits the demographic.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2016, 12:29:26 PM »
Quote
I liked some of the stuff Kasich was talking about before he felt the need to "turn up the crazy" to compete with the circus

Yeah.  He's done some cool stuff in Ohio (and also some not-so-cool stuff in the civil rights and environmental areas).  Primaries always require you to turn up the crazy, I suppose, in our first-past-the-post system.  I strongly disagree with Cruz on domestic politics, but I am more certain in his ability not to start WWIII than Trump's or Rubio's, so I guess that's something.

ZiziPB

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2016, 12:30:29 PM »
Fiscally conservative, socially liberal here.  So no good category for me in the poll, although if you forced me to vote, I would select Liberal in your poll.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2016, 12:32:27 PM »
Trump is getting his publicity because he doesn't care what people think, he talks about things that people shuffle next to instead of addressing.  However, I haven't heard much of a game plan, in relation to actual policies, that he has ever outlined.

Maybe because I'm more centrist than both of them, but I think that's actually a pretty good summary of Sanders, as well.  Both of them are to the extreme of their party, saying things that the polite establishment candidates don't want them to, striking a chord with people who feel disenfranchised by mainstream politics, but both very very weak on concrete policy solutions.  Trump is much scarier to me, but it is striking how many of my "Ron Paul Revolution" friends now support Sanders.  Maybe you can call them both populists in how they appeal to people.

argonaut_astronaut

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2016, 12:32:37 PM »
Definitely lean liberal (which seems to mean more sort of progressive than Adam Smith liberal), but happily take my left-wing friends to task when I think they're being inconsistent.   I was registered briefly as a Republican when I started voting, but because Philadelphia city politics are Tammany Hall-style Democratic-run bullshit, and coming of age post 9-11 quickly cured me of that leaning.

I wonder if we can use different terms for the poll, especially given the international nature of this site.  I think that, clasically (and for our non-American readers):
  • liberal means Adam Smith-style low interference, but also pro-civil rights, separation of church and state, the pro-business party
  • conservative means using the government to step in and protect a certain social order (usually the historically dominant one, i.e. Christianity and rights for white land-owning men).  I think maternity leave is classically a conservative position, to allow traditional gender roles to continue, although now other group have picked it up for their own reasons.
  • progressive means using the government to protect the economically (and maybe racially, etc) disadvantage, breaking up monopolies, etc.
Your definitions of liberal and conservative are inconsistent with my personal definitions and I find it fascinating.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2016, 12:33:02 PM »
Quote
I liked some of the stuff Kasich was talking about before he felt the need to "turn up the crazy" to compete with the circus

Yeah.  He's done some cool stuff in Ohio (and also some not-so-cool stuff in the civil rights and environmental areas).  Primaries always require you to turn up the crazy, I suppose, in our first-past-the-post system.  I strongly disagree with Cruz on domestic politics, but I am more certain in his ability not to start WWIII than Trump's or Rubio's, so I guess that's something.

Probably the swing voting stance for me in this sorry election haha

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2016, 12:34:08 PM »
Quote
Your definitions of liberal and conservative are inconsistent with my personal definitions and I find it fascinating.

I think the terms are used very differently in America, but the left-right political spectrum is obviously a bit limiting, and doesn't capture most people.  Have you ever read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics ?

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2016, 12:35:09 PM »
Fiscally conservative, socially liberal here.  So no good category for me in the poll, although if you forced me to vote, I would select Liberal in your poll.

Pretty close to what I think of as Libertarian

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2016, 12:36:49 PM »
Probably the swing voting stance for me in this sorry election haha

Yup.  Full disclosure, though, I think I'm only a swing voter in that I dislike a lot of what democrats back.  Maybe because I'm 29 and spent 15-23 under GWB, but I've never found a national Republican who offered me much.  The only Republican I ever voted for on a national level was Spector (I'm from Pennsylvania), although I always have voted split tickets in local elections.   

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2016, 12:37:19 PM »
Trump is getting his publicity because he doesn't care what people think, he talks about things that people shuffle next to instead of addressing.  However, I haven't heard much of a game plan, in relation to actual policies, that he has ever outlined.

Maybe because I'm more centrist than both of them, but I think that's actually a pretty good summary of Sanders, as well.  Both of them are to the extreme of their party, saying things that the polite establishment candidates don't want them to, striking a chord with people who feel disenfranchised by mainstream politics, but both very very weak on concrete policy solutions.  Trump is much scarier to me, but it is striking how many of my "Ron Paul Revolution" friends now support Sanders.  Maybe you can call them both populists in how they appeal to people.

Here is the first online straw poll results out of Iowa
http://kimt.com/2016/01/14/iowa-straw-poll-results-released/

Interesting to see Paul 2nd in line for the Repubs.
And Bern just wants to give everything away for free.  Free college?  Really?  Let us devalue our worthless pieces of paper even more by making it free for everyone (at least I think that is still one of the things he wants...and if I'm wrong, please forgive me :) )

argonaut_astronaut

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2016, 12:42:56 PM »
Quote
Your definitions of liberal and conservative are inconsistent with my personal definitions and I find it fascinating.

I think the terms are used very differently in America, but the left-right political spectrum is obviously a bit limiting, and doesn't capture most people.  Have you ever read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics ?

I perused it just now, thanks for the link.

People around here joke that most of the Democrats in the Montana legislature would run as Republicans in California. See Senator John Tester's A+ rating from the NRA to get an idea of the differences.

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2016, 12:43:46 PM »
Trump is getting his publicity because he doesn't care what people think, he talks about things that people shuffle next to instead of addressing.  However, I haven't heard much of a game plan, in relation to actual policies, that he has ever outlined.

Maybe because I'm more centrist than both of them, but I think that's actually a pretty good summary of Sanders, as well.  Both of them are to the extreme of their party, saying things that the polite establishment candidates don't want them to, striking a chord with people who feel disenfranchised by mainstream politics, but both very very weak on concrete policy solutions.  Trump is much scarier to me, but it is striking how many of my "Ron Paul Revolution" friends now support Sanders.  Maybe you can call them both populists in how they appeal to people.

Here is the first online straw poll results out of Iowa
http://kimt.com/2016/01/14/iowa-straw-poll-results-released/

Interesting to see Paul 2nd in line for the Repubs.
And Bern just wants to give everything away for free.  Free college?  Really?  Let us devalue our worthless pieces of paper even more by making it free for everyone (at least I think that is still one of the things he wants...and if I'm wrong, please forgive me :) )

Yep, still on his site, or so it appears

https://berniesanders.com/issues/its-time-to-make-college-tuition-free-and-debt-free/

I don't disagree that something needs to be done with our tuition rates, and the rate in which they are increasing.  I also think the student loan interest rates, at 6% or more in some cases, is a bit off-putting and might sway people's opinions who don't have their college paid for.  But outright, free college tuition surely can't be something we implement.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2016, 12:44:07 PM »
Quote
And Bern just wants to give everything away for free.  Free college?  Really?  Let us devalue our worthless pieces of paper even more by making it free for everyone (at least I think that is still one of the things he wants...and if I'm wrong, please forgive me :) )

That's actually a great example of what I think of Sanders.  He's identified a serious, real problem that people aren't doing much about: college is obscenely expensive.  I just helped a mentee at my work apply for law school, and she's looking at 88K PER YEAR on top of her undergraduate debt.  It's obscene.

But making it free is a bad idea for two big reasons:
1. Making the government pay for it is a huge part of what got us in to this mess.  When the government started backstopping federal loans to students, banks became thrilled to lend 300K to teenagers, and colleges started a nuclear war with each other over perks and amped up their administrations, making colleges very top heavy.  There's no incentive to keep costs down.
2.  Making college free will benefit the middle and upper classes (who already have an easier time paying for college) more than the lower classes, unless it's paired with an incredible reworking of the public K-12 systems somehow.  It's the way Germany and most European nations do it, and it means that poor and working class and immigrant families pay more in taxes for benefits that, statistically, they will not use.  Whether your parent went to college is, I think, the biggest indicator in whether you'll go.  It advances the professional and upper class on the backs of the working poor and lower middle, I'd argue.  And I argue this as someone earning 6 figures, so I know that policy would probably help my kids.

He identified a real problem, and then did not think through the solution, at all.  His instinct is to find someone else to blame for it, or "stick it to" someone, which doesn't help anyone.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2016, 12:45:01 PM »
Probably the swing voting stance for me in this sorry election haha

Yup.  Full disclosure, though, I think I'm only a swing voter in that I dislike a lot of what democrats back.  Maybe because I'm 29 and spent 15-23 under GWB, but I've never found a national Republican who offered me much.  The only Republican I ever voted for on a national level was Spector (I'm from Pennsylvania), although I always have voted split tickets in local elections.

+1 same boat

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2016, 12:46:24 PM »
Fiscally conservative, socially liberal here.  So no good category for me in the poll, although if you forced me to vote, I would select Liberal in your poll.

Pretty close to what I think of as Libertarian

I don't know. I was going to say fiscally conservative/socially liberal too but I definitely don't think I am a Libertarian. I am not necessarily for 'small government,' which is how I generally think of the Libertarian stance. I didn't vote because I consider myself Independent. I have voted for candidates of both major parties previously.

Edited for clarity

TheInsuranceMan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2016, 12:47:51 PM »
Quote
And Bern just wants to give everything away for free.  Free college?  Really?  Let us devalue our worthless pieces of paper even more by making it free for everyone (at least I think that is still one of the things he wants...and if I'm wrong, please forgive me :) )

That's actually a great example of what I think of Sanders.  He's identified a serious, real problem that people aren't doing much about: college is obscenely expensive.  I just helped a mentee at my work apply for law school, and she's looking at 88K PER YEAR on top of her undergraduate debt.  It's obscene.

But making it free is a bad idea for two big reasons:
1. Making the government pay for it is a huge part of what got us in to this mess.  When the government started backstopping federal loans to students, banks became thrilled to lend 300K to teenagers, and colleges started a nuclear war with each other over perks and amped up their administrations, making colleges very top heavy.  There's no incentive to keep costs down.
2.  Making college free will benefit the middle and upper classes (who already have an easier time paying for college) more than the lower classes, unless it's paired with an incredible reworking of the public K-12 systems somehow.  It's the way Germany and most European nations do it, and it means that poor and working class and immigrant families pay more in taxes for benefits that, statistically, they will not use.  Whether your parent went to college is, I think, the biggest indicator in whether you'll go.  It advances the professional and upper class on the backs of the working poor and lower middle, I'd argue.  And I argue this as someone earning 6 figures, so I know that policy would probably help my kids.

He identified a real problem, and then did not think through the solution, at all.  His instinct is to find someone else to blame for it, or "stick it to" someone, which doesn't help anyone.

I agree with the fact that it is a real problem, but as you pointed out, his solution is not something anyone should wish for.

MandalayVA

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2016, 12:49:15 PM »
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Sorry none of the above really captures that so I didn't vote.

Me too.  I've always said I'd vote Republican if I could find a pro-choicer.  I'm told they exist.

Chris22

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2016, 12:51:15 PM »

And Bern just wants to give everything away for free.  Free college?  Really?  Let us devalue our worthless pieces of paper even more by making it free for everyone (at least I think that is still one of the things he wants...and if I'm wrong, please forgive me :) )

I laughed quite hard at this



http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/irony-bernie-sanders-website-ran-out-of-free-stickers/

zephyr911

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2016, 12:53:14 PM »
N/A. I prefer "rational centrist".

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2016, 12:58:09 PM »
Fiscally conservative, socially liberal here.  So no good category for me in the poll, although if you forced me to vote, I would select Liberal in your poll.

Pretty close to what I think of as Libertarian

I don't know. I was going to say fiscally conservative/socially liberal too but I definitely don't think I am a Libertarian. I am not necessarily for 'small government,' which is how I generally think of the Libertarian stance. I didn't vote because I consider myself Independent. I have voted for candidates of both major parties previously.

Edited for clarity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

some of this might appeal to you

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2016, 01:01:09 PM »

I laughed quite hard at this


Snapshot of 2020 under the BERN

"Sorry we're out of free-healthcare at the moment :("

Jack

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2016, 01:03:08 PM »
First of all, I strenuously object to labeling political ideology on only one axis.

Second, I'm not sure what "populist" even means in this context -- authoritarian demagoguery, a-la Trump (or Hitler)?

Third, as a fiscal conservative / social liberal (or left-libertarian), I picked "libertarian" since it seemed closest out of the choices provided.

Interestingly, this "libertarian" is voting for Bernie Sanders -- despite the stuff about free college or whatever -- because he's got much more respect for civil rights than any other candidate (even respect for the Second Amendment, although he appears to be attempting to pander to the anti-gun nuts at the moment) and because unlike any other candidate, he recognizes the danger to society and democracy posed by the corporate elite.

Now, you might think that last clause sounds like the opposite of libertarian, but it isn't. The "danger posed by the corporate elite" is enabled and caused by government regulation. It's not regulation that restricts what corporations can do; it's regulation that gives corporations unfair advantages above and beyond what natural persons have. For example, the fact that officers are not held personally liable for the acts of the company causes them to act like sociopaths and the recent Supreme Court ruling allowing contracts to force arbitration and disallow class-action is unconsionable. Because of the limited-liability nature of corporations, it is entirely necessary and proper that they be subject to reasonable regulation (anti-trust, Glass-Steagall, etc.). And that is not any sort of limitation on freedom whatsoever -- if you don't like being subject to corporate regulation, you're always free to be a sole proprietorship instead!

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2016, 01:08:22 PM »
Quote
he recognizes the danger to society and democracy posed by the corporate elite.

Agreed on that, although I would vastly prefer Warren, who I think understands and calls out the danger but is also deeply knowledgeable in the related fields.

I guess it's also important to remember that we're not appointing a dictator.  It's harder to predict how candidates will do as leaders until we know what Congress looks like, but I think he has a sort of average chance in the field of being an effective leader.  He has reached across aisles before, but he is very trained at being the opposition and outside critic, not at cultivating consensus. 

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2016, 01:08:59 PM »
First of all, I strenuously object to labeling political ideology on only one axis.

Second, I'm not sure what "populist" even means in this context -- authoritarian demagoguery, a-la Trump (or Hitler)?

Third, as a fiscal conservative / social liberal (or left-libertarian), I picked "libertarian" since it seemed closest out of the choices provided.

Interestingly, this "libertarian" is voting for Bernie Sanders -- despite the stuff about free college or whatever -- because he's got much more respect for civil rights than any other candidate (even respect for the Second Amendment, although he appears to be attempting to pander to the anti-gun nuts at the moment) and because unlike any other candidate, he recognizes the danger to society and democracy posed by the corporate elite.

Now, you might think that last clause sounds like the opposite of libertarian, but it isn't. The "danger posed by the corporate elite" is enabled and caused by government regulation. It's not regulation that restricts what corporations can do; it's regulation that gives corporations unfair advantages above and beyond what natural persons have. For example, the fact that officers are not held personally liable for the acts of the company causes them to act like sociopaths and the recent Supreme Court ruling allowing contracts to force arbitration and disallow class-action is unconsionable. Because of the limited-liability nature of corporations, it is entirely necessary and proper that they be subject to reasonable regulation (anti-trust, Glass-Steagall, etc.). And that is not any sort of limitation on freedom whatsoever -- if you don't like being subject to corporate regulation, you're always free to be a sole proprietorship instead!

I'd argue both Trump and Bernie are Populists

"populism as merely empathizing with the public, (usually through rhetoric or "unrealistic" proposals) in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum"

2-sides of the same coin

trailrated

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2016, 01:35:05 PM »
Conservative on fiscal and defense issues, liberal/libertarian on social ones.  I feel far more strongly on fiscal/defense issues than I do on social ones (as a straight married male), so I identify as conservative even though I'm embarrassed by a lot of conservative social stances.

I would say that perfectly sums up myself as well +1

Jack

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2016, 01:38:38 PM »
Second, I'm not sure what "populist" even means in this context -- authoritarian demagoguery, a-la Trump (or Hitler)?

I'd argue both Trump and Bernie are Populists

"populism as merely empathizing with the public, (usually through rhetoric or "unrealistic" proposals) in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum"

2-sides of the same coin

Hmm... okay, I can see how populism and demagoguery are different.

However, I disagree that Sanders is populist, mainly because he's had the same ideology/platform for his entire political career whether it was popular or not.

Edit: he also seems to rely on rhetoric less than other politicians, and gives actual reasons for his positions. You can argue that he might be wrong about them, but they exist.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 01:41:23 PM by Jack »

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2016, 01:43:23 PM »
Second, I'm not sure what "populist" even means in this context -- authoritarian demagoguery, a-la Trump (or Hitler)?

I'd argue both Trump and Bernie are Populists

"populism as merely empathizing with the public, (usually through rhetoric or "unrealistic" proposals) in order to increase appeal across the political spectrum"

2-sides of the same coin

Hmm... okay, I can see how populism and demagoguery are different.

However, I disagree that Sanders is populist, mainly because he's had the same ideology/platform for his entire political career whether it was popular or not.

That's a good point, his views happen to be in vogue right now - but it seems rather fishy that he pops out of the woodwork to run during the time in which it's most popular to, would be interesting if he sells his soul - and softens his tone, if he wins the primary. Seems to already be backtracking a bit on guns.

As and aside - I love Bernie as a person, and think he's doing great with consistency and with an unwillingness to bend, so I hope he doesn't change his tone, even though I care not for his policies (and think most of them are half-baked at best!)

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2016, 01:44:14 PM »
Quote
However, I disagree that Sanders is populist, mainly because he's had the same ideology/platform for his entire political career whether it was popular or not.

I think Sanders has served the left and the center for decades and am glad he's around as a voice, but I do think he's a populist.  Populism is not speaking for what's popular at the moment.  It's "a doctrine that appeals to the interests and conceptions (such as hopes and fears) of the general population, especially when contrasting any new collective consciousness push against the prevailing status quo interests of any predominant political sector."  It can be right-wing and xenophobic (see Trump and the Know-nothings), or left-wing, or even religious-based. (http://theweek.com/articles/579018/brief-history-populism) Sanders has been a populist more or less since the beginning (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/12/the-populist-prophet).

Cougar

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2016, 01:53:22 PM »

 always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

 how the gop trots out 45 million every 4 years, i don't know; i don't see them; they must be shut-ins.

onlykelsey

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2016, 01:59:04 PM »

As and aside - I love Bernie as a person, and think he's doing great with consistency and with an unwillingness to bend, so I hope he doesn't change his tone, even though I care not for his policies (and think most of them are half-baked at best!)

Agree.  He has incredible shortcomings (mainly, he sees everything through an economic lens), but he has been principled and honest and a great voice on the left.

Roboturner

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2016, 02:01:49 PM »

 always interesting to me how liberals outrank conservatives on something like a site like this which promotes conserving and self-responsibility and in a small business like being a real estate agaent. seems conservatives would rule.

 how the gop trots out 45 million every 4 years, i don't know; i don't see them; they must be shut-ins.

no, not conservatives, MMM is pretty counterculture - replace conservative with libertarian and I'd get on board. Case in point we're currently at 25%+ Libertarian where PEW estimates 11% in the US

mancityfan

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2016, 02:02:04 PM »
Growing up in the UK - but in the US for the last 27 years - I do not think there are many liberal politicians in this country. The US is generally quite conservative, especially on social matters. I would still put Sanders left of center, Clinton as a centrist, and the republican candidates as right of center.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2016, 02:24:51 PM »

  • conservative means using the government to step in and protect a certain social order (usually the historically dominant one, i.e. Christianity and rights for white land-owning men).  I think maternity leave is classically a conservative position, to allow traditional gender roles to continue, although now other group have picked it up for their own reasons.

That's an interesting perspective.  I've never seen maternity leave as a conservative issue. Haven't heard it trumpeted by too many conservative politicians. Do you have examples? 

Then again our company finally added it, but it's parental leave- the non-delivering (as they put it) spouse gets the same leave as the delivering one, and so do adoptive parents.


enigmaT120

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Re: Liberal or Conservative?
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2016, 02:32:56 PM »
I'm a right and left wing extremist.


 

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