Author Topic: Lessons learned  (Read 7139 times)

Laura33

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Lessons learned
« on: April 21, 2022, 12:25:25 PM »
Soooo, we recently had a house fire.  We're fine, and even the "stuff" we care about seems to be fine.  But it has been eye-opening for any number of reasons, so I thought I'd chat a bit about a few things I've learned.

1.  However much insurance you have, it's not enough, thanks to supply chain.  I had literally twice as much insurance as I ever thought I'd need; it's a 140-year-old house, so we knew any rebuild would be far more than normal, so I got increased limits, full replacement value, the rider to cover upgrades to bring the house up to current codes, automatic inflation increases, you name it.  It looks like we're going to be within our limits -- we think -- but it's going to be way closer than I ever would have thought, because construction prices around here are up probably 50% in the past year or two.  Because supply chain.  Plus it's going to take 18 months to 2 years to rebuild -- see supply chain, supra.  For a relatively minor fire (i.e., small structural rebuild that's limited to maybe 1/4 of the roof, mostly water/smoke damage).* 

Go increase your insurance.  Now.  I've spent less than $2K/yr on home insurance, all riders and extras included.  We're going to have a claim well over $1M.  And we're not exactly in NYC or CA. 

2.  You are not logical in an emergency situation, even when you think you are.  I was not at all emotional during the fire; we sat on a neighbor's porch watching the fire engines and drinking scotch, and I was joking about our "literal housewarming party."  So I truly thought I was acting rationally and logically.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Did I grab our "important documents" file that we made for an emergency, which was within arm's reach?  Did I grab my ID or credit cards, or our passports that were 3' away?  Nope.  I did, however, make sure I had my glass of tea.  And my iPad that had my library books on it.

Did I go back in after the documents when I thought of them, or after the cat?  Nope.  I did, however, run back in to make sure I signed off my Zoom call.  Because it would have been rude to just disappear and leave people hanging.  (Now there's a conversation for you:  "I'm sorry, I have to go, I've been told my house is on fire.")

I was standing barefoot in the middle of the street -- in March -- because I didn't think to grab my flip-flops.  An absolutely lovely neighbor came by and asked if I needed shoes.  And I thought, eh, it's mid-60s, I'm not cold, I don't want to inconvenience her.  And I said no.  Luckily for me, she didn't listen to me and came back with shoes anyway. 

I didn't want to call my mother to tell her, because I didn't want her to feel she needed to cut her business trip short.  I had the day of the week wrong by 2-3 days, and she was literally on the flight home when the fire happened.  I kept telling people she'd be home Thursday night and didn't figure it out until someone said, "uhhh, it IS Thursday night."

Again:  I felt 100% rational and logical this whole time.  No panic, no tears, no fretting.  But apparently part of my brain just shut down; I was functioning, but not actually processing.  That was actually the scariest part:  realizing after the fact how irrationally I acted while feeling perfectly normal.  The lack of panic/tears gave me a false sense of competence.   

3.  It is so, SO good to have extra $$$ freely available and to LBYM!  Now, I have to say, our insurance has been awesome so far -- my broker was walking up the sidewalk not 15 minutes after I called the 800-number to notify them of the fire.  He offered me an immediate check, came by again the next morning to offer a check for whatever we needed, and has called several times since then.  He cannot seem to process that we have enough in the bank to manage our immediate needs. 

But this is also going to be a looooong process -- old house = complex claim -- so it will probably be a couple of years before everything is settled.  And in the interim, we have to replace almost all of our clothes, food, toiletries, small appliances, kid toys, etc. (side note: smoke damage is a bitch), while still covering all our normal living expenses, planning vacations, etc.  We have been able to run to the stores and spend literally thousands of dollars on clothes, makeup, a new mattress, etc., without batting an eye.  So my stress level is way, way lower than I had ever thought it would be in this situation, because it's just money, and we have enough of that. 

And more importantly:  when we do get to that ultimate insurance payout, we will not be forced to settle for less than we deserve because we're just desperate for cash.  Our contractor is already telling us that the rebuild is going to be c. $300-400K more than the numbers the insurance adjustor was throwing around, so I expect that we will be arguing about that for months.  But we can afford to do so for as long as it takes, because we don't need their money right this minute to afford our lifestyle.

Money isn't just freedom.  It's power. 

4.  In the end, it's always about people.  I am not particularly sociable; I'm perfectly nice and like my neighbors very much, but I'm not exactly the one throwing the block parties, you know?  And yet the entire neighborhood turned out for us, bringing food and clothes (and The Macallan 12-yr!), offering places to stay, and whatever else we needed.  Even a local restaurant owner who I've never met saw the fire went in and told her employees to make whatever they could in 20 minutes and brough a giant feast for us all.  I still haven't cried about the fire, but my throat closes up when I think about all of the invisible caring around me. 


*It's been weeks, and I am still genuinely flabbergasted at this.  My house looks almost normal, except for some plywood on the roof and over a couple of windows.  The attic is shot, but even the main living floors look almost normal.  And yet the rebuild is going to cost at least 50% more than the house is even worth -- for such a relatively minor fire!!!  Does. Not. Compute. 

TomTX

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 12:32:09 PM »
I just called my insurance agent yet again to try and get the value of the house listed appropriately. It's low by at least $200k based on recent sales and even low by over $100k based on the lagging indicator which is the tax assessed value.

I've been pinging them every ~6 months on this topic, but the underwriters apparently don't want to increase the value to realistic levels.

englishteacheralex

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 12:45:10 PM »
Fascinating. PTF. I feel like I haven't seen you around these parts very much lately.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 01:00:51 PM »
Fascinating. PTF. I feel like I haven't seen you around these parts very much lately.

Yeah, I was off reading books and working and generally being lazy.  A couple of folks pinged me to make sure I was still, you know, living, and so coincidentally, I had just come back and started posting more again when we had the fire.  So you probably won't see a lot of me for the foreseeable future, either, while we deal with 1,001 new things.

gooki

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 01:21:16 PM »
Quote
smoke damage is a bitch

This x1000 if you don't suffer a complete loss.

Good to hear you and your family are safe.

Sibley

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 01:33:06 PM »
I'm glad that you are ok. And yes, having the money to just buy what you need without stress definitely helps.

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 01:39:07 PM »
Spend long enough on these forums and the whole gamut of human life passes in front of you: I'm sorry it was you that got the house fire but glad it wasn't worse and that mustachianism is helping you see it through.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2022, 01:51:30 PM »
Quote
smoke damage is a bitch

This x1000 if you don't suffer a complete loss.

@gooki -- I am learning so much I never realized I needed to know!  Like smoke damage!  And water damage -- fire was mostly in the eaves/attic space, which is very difficult to access, so they had to cut a bunch of holes in the roof and pour tons of water in.  And then it stormed all night, because Mother Nature apparently felt like giving us the finger.  Suffice it to say that all of our original oak floors are shot, along with the plaster walls and ceilings -- even down on the first floor.  :-(  (On the plus side, at least opening up all the walls means modern electric and insulation)

PSA:  baking soda seems to get smoke out of clothes as well as or better than the pricey commercial treatment the insurance company provides.  Presoak and two rinses. 

calimom

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2022, 02:02:06 PM »
Sorry to hear of your misfortune, but appreciated the life lessons imparted from this experience. Repairing/replacing things is a nightmare in our present economy and likely not getting better anytime soon. I live in wildfire country and have evacuated with kids and pets three times. I have learned to keep a 'go bag' by the front door with documents and irreplaceable items that just mostly stays packed now. You are so right about insurance, I've bulked up my own. Insurance is important for renters as well. Even if you think you don't have a lot of stuff, replacing each item adds up fast. And most crucially, if you're out of your rental unit for any period of time, insurance will cover a temporary rental. Landlords are not required to do so.

Hoping your road back to "normal" is not too bumpy. And yes, crisis brings out the very best in humanity, which is simply humbling on the receiving end.

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2022, 02:06:55 PM »
Glad to hear from you, and so very glad you are safe given the circumstances.

As for the 'does not compute' aspect of house remediation and restoration, I completely get that. Just over 1 year ago we had a relatively minor flooding event when a pipe burst in our second story bathroom three weeks before the closing on that house. A few hundred gallons went through the bedroom and bathroom and then down into the unfinished garage, but thankfully we caught it within an hour of it happening.  No other rooms were impacted, but the total claim was something like $30k. No structural damage, a pretty small amount of our personal effects got wet, and a only about 150 square feet of living space ever got wet. Even the electrical was undamaged.  Our agent pointed out how lucky we were and said had the burst pipe gone undetected for just a couple hours it would have been a six-figure claim without a doubt.

kenner

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2022, 06:19:33 PM »

Did I go back in after the documents when I thought of them, or after the cat?  Nope.  I did, however, run back in to make sure I signed off my Zoom call.  Because it would have been rude to just disappear and leave people hanging.  (Now there's a conversation for you:  "I'm sorry, I have to go, I've been told my house is on fire.")



Hilariously I've had a similar conversation at work (from the other end). 

Them:  "Oh.  I think that's the fire alarm going off.  It kind of does smell like smoke.  I guess I should probably evacuate"

Me:  "Uh...yeah...."

I don't think anyone is as rational as they think they're going to be in a situation like that, though.

BlueHouse

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2022, 07:11:05 PM »
so glad you're safe and that you have resources and wonderful neighbors!

I'm on the low side of insurance. My thinking has been that my location is such a big part of the value of my house, so even if my house burned to the ground, I wouldn't mind just taking the money and selling as-is, so the next owner could build what they want (within pretty strict HOA limitations and the row house allowances).  I suppose I should at least insure up to the amount of equity I have in the house and will make the call tomorrow.  But with my strategy of moving away, would you still suggest much more insurance?   

Thanks for the advice and for sharing at a time like this!


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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2022, 07:26:16 PM »
I'm glad you and your family are safe. Thank you for passing along some of the things you have learned. I'm taking notes. I haven't had to deal with fire, but had to deal with flooding from Hurricane Harvey and even the memories from that time are exhausting. Did you find out what caused the fire?

NV Teacher

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2022, 07:16:17 AM »
Years ago on This Old House they talked about house fires and one person had a video that their daughter had made walking around the house to show her college roommates.  After the fire they were able to use the video as proof of their possessions to the insurance company.  I thought it was a smart idea.

LifeHappens

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2022, 08:43:35 AM »
Laura, I really appreciate your contributions to the forum. I'm so sorry this happened to you and your family, but glad no one was injured and you have the resources to bounce back.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2022, 09:03:56 AM »
so glad you're safe and that you have resources and wonderful neighbors!

I'm on the low side of insurance. My thinking has been that my location is such a big part of the value of my house, so even if my house burned to the ground, I wouldn't mind just taking the money and selling as-is, so the next owner could build what they want (within pretty strict HOA limitations and the row house allowances).  I suppose I should at least insure up to the amount of equity I have in the house and will make the call tomorrow.  But with my strategy of moving away, would you still suggest much more insurance?   

Thanks for the advice and for sharing at a time like this!

Absolutely.  I don't quite know how the "walk away" option works.  I suspect that they give you the value of the home pre-fire, they then take the house, and they can sell the house to recoup whatever they can.  But IMO what you're really paying for is choices.  If it were 2-3 years from now, once DS is out of the house, we might be seriously considering the "take the money and run" option.  But we're not ready yet.  And so I have the right to make the economically stupid decision to require the insurance company to pay more than the house is worth to rebuild it exactly as-is, if I decide that's what I want. 

Also, FYI, for the "replacement value" aspect for personal items, the insurance company is a little clever.  If you actually replace something in kind, they pay for the full replacement.  However, if you just want to take the money, they will pay you only the depreciated value.  So my son is thrilled, because he gets to buy all new Lego sets and rebuild them.  But if I don't want to replace all of my work clothes (because, say, I now work at home and have not worn a single item of clothing without some percentage of Lycra in two years), I get the Goodwill price for used clothes.  So any Mustachian may well not care about replacement value for personal items, because it is a real encouragement to buy more stuff you don't actually need.  But it is hugely useful for the structure itself -- if we didn't have that, we'd basically be forced to tear down a gorgeous old original home, because otherwise we'd be paying hundreds of thousands of dollars out-of-pocket to fix it.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2022, 09:09:48 AM »
Did you find out what caused the fire?

Electrical.  And here's irony for you:  DH describes the house as the Smithsonian of electrical wiring methods over the past 150 years.  And yet the fire started in wiring installed about 10 years ago.  Still don't know the actual why -- it was clearly an arc flash, so the protective covering must have been damaged, and there was a power bump in the neighborhood about 10 minutes before, but no knowledge why the wire was damaged -- could have been a mouse, could have been wear and tear (it was right under the dryer, so the vibration could have worn it down over time), etc.

We got VERY lucky:  because the fire started in an outside storage area under the laundry room, it couldn't get through the mortar bed and tile floor, and so went outside the house and up into the attic.  If that laundry room had still been the 3-season porch it was when we bought the house, the fire would have ripped through the stairway like a chimney, and there'd have been nothing but rubble left. 

Sailor Sam

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2022, 10:16:28 AM »
Wowzer, what a story. Fire is a fascinating, and terrifying thing. I sometimes get to see the aftermath of boats that have burned, and a few that were still actively burning, and it’s always amazing.

Modern fire resistance, and fire “proofing” (aka: building barriers against fire just doing whatever it wants) are also pretty amazing innovations. I fully approve.

SuperNintendo Chalmers

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2022, 10:51:35 AM »
As someone who's had to evacuate with virtually no notice due to fires, I can definitely relate to #2.  In the aftermath, we look back at what we grabbed vs. what we didn't grab with perplexity and regret. 

I would also say to everyone, have a "to-go" bag and a plan for evacuation, even if you don't think you live in an area where that would be a concern.  What would you grab and where would you go?  What are alternatives if normal routes out are blocked/inaccessible?  Make it a priority, like today if you don't have one.  We always put it on the back burner which is easy to do, but going through that made it absolutely clear how important it is.  I think there are very few if any areas/cities/towns/countryside where an emergency evacuation with no notice is not a real possibility.

Agree on # 4 too.  One of the very real silver linings of a stressful situation. 

Glad you are safe. 

SunnyDays

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2022, 11:00:17 AM »
So sorry Laura!  That is my worst nightmare.

I know 2 people whose homes burned to the ground and a neighbour who had a kitchen fire.  They all took forever to rebuild, with tons and tons of work involved.  I might also take the money and run if this happened to me.  That said, I will be upping my insurance, if I can, when it comes due soon.

Is your cat okay?

Sailor Sam

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2022, 11:23:50 AM »
I would also say to everyone, have a "to-go" bag and a plan for evacuation <snip>

Third'ing this one. Don't forget to actually hold family fire drills, where expressly remember to grab the bag. Gotta drill it like you kill it, otherwise you end up running right past the bag, holding your knife and fork and totally forgetting the dog.

shureShote

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2022, 11:24:09 AM »
Thanks for sharing, glad you are OK.

One of my biggest fears in the world is getting caught barefoot. I think as long as I can pull on my boots, everything else will be just fine.


Scandium

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2022, 11:25:57 AM »
Just curious, but in this scenario would insurance allow you to sell the land, pocket the rebuild cost, and buy another house? Especially these days that seems preferable to dealing with building a new house from scratch for years, and dealing with all the supply issues!
Or I guess you could buy another house anyway, rebuild the old one and sell it.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2022, 11:26:17 AM »
Is your cat okay?

Yep -- didn't know where she was when we evacuated, so I left the front door open, and we found her the next day hiding in the crawlspace.

Funny (to me) story:  I was texting back and forth that night with DD from college, because (of course) her younger brother had posted the fire on snapchat before I even had a chance to tell anyone.  So of course one of her first questions was whether the cat was ok.  So I explained that the cat was fine, the fire was on the 3rd floor, cat was on the first, cat never goes to the 3rd floor, I left the front door open, etc.  DD's response:  "she's dumb as rocks, mom."  Cracked me up.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2022, 11:30:27 AM »
Just curious, but in this scenario would insurance allow you to sell the land, pocket the rebuild cost, and buy another house? Especially these days that seems preferable to dealing with building a new house from scratch for years, and dealing with all the supply issues!
Or I guess you could buy another house anyway, rebuild the old one and sell it.

I don't actually know how that would work.  I assume if they consider it a write-off, they'd just pay us the market value of the house and they'd take the house back to do whatever with, and we could move.  The problem is that we really like this area and are committed to it for at a minimum 2.5 more years, and there is truly nothing comparable on the market -- we even thought of buying a house given the 2-yr rebuild and lack of apartments, about 1,000' smaller but with sufficient room, and the thing had sold before our realtor even had a chance to contact the seller's agent.  Many many people apparently want to live here.  If we were ready to move on to a condo downtown, it would be a fantastic opportunity to do so, but we're not there yet. 

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2022, 11:32:43 AM »
I'm so glad you are okay, including the cat.  Thanks for sharing this.  Are you required to submit receipts for everything, and is that the amount you get, assuming the item is comparable?  What sort of proof do they ask for?  IOW, when you buy a mattress, do you need to prove you had a mattress before?  And do you need to somehow prove what level/price point it was?  Do you just tell them you had perhaps 20 pairs of underwear, and they take your word for it and reimburse you for 20 more pairs that you claim are about the same quality?  (Some of this may not apply to your situation since it sounds like your underwear drawer didn't burn, so you can show them that and the old mattress, even if they are both ruined.  (Okay, the underwear can probably just be washed and not replaced, but hopefully you understand my question, which is about what proof they offer for things that were fully destroyed as far as # and quality-level.)

Since you mention washing things to get the smell out, consider a laundry service if you are still in the middle of that process.  It would probably be covered.  When we had a flood, my insurance paid for a company to come pick up everything that seemed like it could be washed, clean it, and then return it. 

We had a flood in our rental unit a couple years ago.  A supply line on a toilet--a $7 part, failed.  And $40,000, we finally settled everything.  It was all covered, including lost rent when our tenant moved out.  (She claimed the place was uninhabitable, which I thought was bullshit.  I would have fought it, but the insurance was fine with it and paid the lost rent.  I actually came out ahead since usually our PM gets a share of the rent, and since this wasn't technically rent, they didn't get their cut.)  It was eye-opening to me to see just how much everything cost.  And like you, we ad the depreciation issue come up.  They sent us a check for the estimates minus X% (30%, maybe?  I don't recall.) and then only sent is that X% when we submitted our final, pain-in-full bill from the contractor.  If we didn't do the work, then we would have received only the depreciated amount.

Years ago on This Old House they talked about house fires and one person had a video that their daughter had made walking around the house to show her college roommates.  After the fire they were able to use the video as proof of their possessions to the insurance company.  I thought it was a smart idea.


It's been a while, but I used to do this before each of our military moves.  The video was usually about 15 minutes, though I separated it into smaller segments so the files weren't so large.  .  I opened every drawer and cabinet.  Maybe that didn't show whether I had 15 pairs of socks or 18, but it gave a sense.  It would probably be a good thing for me to do again sometime soon.  Thanks for the reminder.  I used to email it to myself so a copy was saved in the cloud. 

Scandium

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2022, 11:36:08 AM »
Just curious, but in this scenario would insurance allow you to sell the land, pocket the rebuild cost, and buy another house? Especially these days that seems preferable to dealing with building a new house from scratch for years, and dealing with all the supply issues!
Or I guess you could buy another house anyway, rebuild the old one and sell it.

I don't actually know how that would work.  I assume if they consider it a write-off, they'd just pay us the market value of the house and they'd take the house back to do whatever with, and we could move.  The problem is that we really like this area and are committed to it for at a minimum 2.5 more years, and there is truly nothing comparable on the market -- we even thought of buying a house given the 2-yr rebuild and lack of apartments, about 1,000' smaller but with sufficient room, and the thing had sold before our realtor even had a chance to contact the seller's agent.  Many many people apparently want to live here.  If we were ready to move on to a condo downtown, it would be a fantastic opportunity to do so, but we're not there yet.

Yeah I suppose that's true, with both supply issues, and extreme housing crunch one isn't really better than another! This area too I wouldn't be able to find a home even in the same town if I wanted to. Looking at zillow all recent houses show "listed for sale" and "pending" on the same day! Often tens of thousands above listed price

Rosy

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2022, 12:07:24 PM »
@Laura33   I'm glad you all made it out OK and yes, of course, adequate insurance and having enough of a stash to never have to 'depend' on an interim payout by the insurance company is key.

I think people often thoughtlessly pick the cheapest insurance and then end up with all sorts of issues. The fact that you went through an independent hometown broker is also huge when it comes to claim payments and making certain you have proper coverage.

As an ex-underwriter, I've seen my share of horror stories. One of my first jobs was at an agency handling renewals for homeowners insurance before I became an underwriter.
I can't tell you how often I heard: "Dearie, I'm a widow I can barely afford insurance and I just don't have enough money left from SS to buy the replacement-cost endorsement".
It is devastating when a storm comes through and takes off the roof and you have no replacement cost coverage.

As far as losing it when a catastrophe hits, like a fire, I think we all react differently. I've been through two home fires (the first when I was four or five) and one business fire. The aftermath, the shock, and especially the much longer than anticipated time to be back to 'normal' is rougher than we can imagine.
My mind goes ice cold when a fire is imminent - I get everybody out the door first incl the critters and I will have my papers and a few items I consider crucial on my person.

Aside from my own fire experiences, once we lived in an apartment that I felt uneasy about for the simple reason that there was a lot of wood everywhere. Sure enough, the building across the street caught fire, a kitchen fire and total loss. At one in the morning, I had everybody out before they were even awake - I was terrified the fire would jump from roof to roof or wood balcony to wood balcony.

As far as emergency folders, I keep one set in my nightstand and an extra copy on a chip in my car and I have chips with pictures of valuables and jewelry within the file. Fires and Hurricanes can occur even when you are not on the premises so having only one set of important papers in your own house is not good enough.

Having an adequate EF or stash certainly lets me sleep at night - I've seen my share of catastrophes and been in several - it takes time to regroup and it opens your eyes about how important it is to take charge of your life, protect yourself financially and make smart choices - there are times when 'cheap' will cost you for years to come or in some cases can cause you to lose your home.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2022, 12:14:34 PM »
I'm so glad you are okay, including the cat.  Thanks for sharing this.  Are you required to submit receipts for everything, and is that the amount you get, assuming the item is comparable?  What sort of proof do they ask for?  IOW, when you buy a mattress, do you need to prove you had a mattress before?  And do you need to somehow prove what level/price point it was?  Do you just tell them you had perhaps 20 pairs of underwear, and they take your word for it and reimburse you for 20 more pairs that you claim are about the same quality?  (Some of this may not apply to your situation since it sounds like your underwear drawer didn't burn, so you can show them that and the old mattress, even if they are both ruined.  (Okay, the underwear can probably just be washed and not replaced, but hopefully you understand my question, which is about what proof they offer for things that were fully destroyed as far as # and quality-level.)

We are learning this whole process, so I'll let you know!  What I understand now is that there is a multi-part process:

1.  First, different companies come in and try to salvage what they can or what we want them to (soooooo many companies!).  Insurance pays for this.

2.  Then an "inventory" guy comes in to inventory what is left (in insurance-speak, "inventory" = "trash").  He will note things like 3 pair of black work pants from Jones New York.  If I buy three more pair of JNY work pants, I get paid back for that in the final claim.  And then there is the more generic stuff that they are just going to value as a "lot" (like toiletries and groceries and such).  Our job is to look out for where their valuation of a particular lot of stuff isn't consistent with our own (like for the foods, I have a bunch of nice tea, so I'm going to inventory that separately to support a higher valuation).  This is going to be a PITA for us; I've already put together documentation for the stuff in the garage fridge, which included stuff like 1/2 leg of prosciutto, and am not looking forward to it.  I imagine we'll focus our efforts on documenting the expensive things, and just take the insurer's valuation for the rest. 

3.  Inventory stuff gets thrown out and they move on to restoration -- quotes from contractors, designs, negotiating with insurer on rebuild, etc.  Once the insurer approves the proposed repair plan and arranges to pay the contractor directly, restoration work can finally begin.

4.  Once everything is done, we have something like 2 years to submit a final claim.  So for example, if we gave stuff to the textile company to try to reclaim, and that's been in storage during the rebuild but when we get it back it smells like smoke, we can move that to the "inventory" pile, buy a replacement, and then add that to the claim.  Once we put together our final claim, the negotiations with the insurer begin.  Eventually at some point we get a check.

The problem is going to be where replacements are not quite equivalent.  For ex, our kitchen cabinets had some upgraded glides and soft-close drawers, and others that were just the normal stuff.  Apparently the cabinet company now only makes the upgraded version.  So how is the insurer going to evaluate what they owe us on replacement cabinets?*  Or the new mattress we just bought:  our old one was a Tempurpedic, so we bought a new Tempurpedic, because I love it.  But when we bought our mattress, the choices were basically "hard" and "soft"; now they have like 5 different levels, with multiple levels of softness for each.  We bought a mid-range one that was the most comfortable, but I imagine we are going to be arguing with them over that. 

We have actually taken the easy route with this and hired our own public adjustor to negotiate with the insurance company.  It is NOT cheap -- we're paying them 10% of the recovery.  But I've never been through this before, so I don't know what I don't know.  My own work experience tells me that there's a dance here, with a series of known steps and arguments that we can expect from the insurance company -- but since I don't work in that area, I don't know the steps.  So I suspect we will be better off in the end paying 10% to someone who actually knows the system and knows how to advocate for us vs. trying to do it blindly ourselves.  Plus it's clear that managing all this stuff is itself a full-time job, so it's worth the money not to have to manage everything on our own. 


*Note that this is where the rider we bought to cover costs of bringing the house up to code helps a ton.  We're probably going to have to redo all the electric and all the insulation.  Normally, insurance isn't going to cover replacing knob-and-tube wiring with modern conduits, or to add insulation under the roof.  But if all that stuff is now required by the local building code, they do.  Heck, we might even now need a sprinkler system in the house, which I would NOT complaint about getting for free at all! 

SunnyDays

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2022, 01:22:53 PM »
Well you’ve just given me more incentive to keep on decluttering!  I get tired just thinking about having to inventory every item and assign value.  I hope you have more energy than I have.  Sounds like a gruelling process.

Scandium

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2022, 01:28:32 PM »
Well you’ve just given me more incentive to keep on decluttering!  I get tired just thinking about having to inventory every item and assign value.  I hope you have more energy than I have.  Sounds like a gruelling process.

Same here! One more reason less stuff is better. Apparently even after it's burned up! I also solve a lot of this buy not own much expensive stuff :D

Before we go on a big trip abroad I walk around the house and take a picture of everything, at least gives me some sort of record.

BeanCounter

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2022, 01:43:13 PM »
Wow. I'm so sorry, but glad you all made it out ok. It's the kind of thing you never think will happen to you. What % of the house is damaged? Can you live in any portion of it while it's under repair?

mm1970

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2022, 04:56:43 PM »
Wow, I'm so sorry!  Are you still living in the house?  That would be my worry locally...no place to live in the meantime.

Thanks for the reminder to upgrade our home owner's insurance.  I'll bring it up to DH this weekend.  Our house is 75 years old...

Catbert

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2022, 06:22:10 PM »
So sorry this happened to you.   This is the best (worst?) excuse for not having time to post here.  I'll go take a good look at my insurance policy.  My personal residence is approaching 100 years old and have a rental that's *only* 60.  I hope I never have to know how good my insurance is.

Villanelle

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2022, 07:04:21 PM »
Thanks for the outline of the process.  That's a lot.  Please remember to be kind to yourself and your family in the coming weeks and months.  It's a lot, and when the adrenaline wears off and it turns into the just a long grind, there may well be some complex emotions. 

Dicey

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2022, 01:19:05 AM »
Wow! Glad you're okay. Sharing your experience with us is quite a generous gift, especially under the circumstances. Please keep us apprised of your progress. Good move to hire an ombudsman.

deborah

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2022, 02:23:17 AM »
I’m very sorry this has happened to you.

When all my possessions were burnt or totalled by smoke damage, many, many years ago, except the clothes I had on at the time, it took me forever to get back to where I was. Restocking an entire wardrobe may sound simple, but it took a lot of work, and a lot of trips to different stores. The same with everything else. My tip would be to go to one place and buy an entire kitchen, or whatever room you’re looking at.

Adventine

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2022, 04:47:50 AM »
Sorry this happened to you, Laura33 and thank you for sharing those lessons. Definitely important to remember.

BeanCounter

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2022, 06:35:46 AM »
This thread has me thinking about how to best protect family pictures and important documents. Has anyone purchased a fire safe or those waterproof-fireproof bags for pictures? Where do you store birth certificates and passports? Should I get a safe deposit box? Which documents really need to be protected.

I think family pictures are the physical things that would be most important for me to protect. And maybe take pictures and make a list valuable jewelry. Documents would just be the things we'd need to easily restart life. Everything else in my house are inherited family items or well used purchases that can be replaced.

nereo

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2022, 08:40:36 AM »
This thread has me thinking about how to best protect family pictures and important documents. Has anyone purchased a fire safe or those waterproof-fireproof bags for pictures? Where do you store birth certificates and passports? Should I get a safe deposit box? Which documents really need to be protected.

I think family pictures are the physical things that would be most important for me to protect. And maybe take pictures and make a list valuable jewelry. Documents would just be the things we'd need to easily restart life. Everything else in my house are inherited family items or well used purchases that can be replaced.

For photos I find have them digitized and backed up on redundant drives is the most secure way to go - we use Google Cloud for off-site but also have our drives backed up on external hard drives both at work and home.  Physical photographs are too easily damage (by water, fire, smoke, you name it...) and even when printed on archival paper with archival inks will start to fade after several decades.

We also have digital copies of our passports, birth certificates and SS cards, stored on our password manager (i use 1password - wife uses something else through work).  We actually got through customs one time by showing them our scanned copy of our passport ()which they verified in their system). Not a guarantee and YMMV, but it certainly helped us.

A safe deposit box is certainly a great way of protecting the physical documents, but requires a monthly (small) fee and can be a pain if you move around as much as we do, and you have to plan around banking-hours to access your stuff.  We have a fire-rated filing cabinet (PITA to move - heavy!!) which stores our important documents which we are supposed to grab in case of an emergency.  But as Sailor Sam said you need to have a well defined evac plan and drill, drill, drill.  We have the former but haven't done the latter.  Plus there's a good chance we wouldn't be home during an emergency, so who knows. 

Beyond that an annual archiving of your stuff with a digital camera can be invaluable during an insurance claim (we did exactly this, and it was an enormous help). Anything that costs >$1,000 write down the model & serial number & date/place of purchase, and store it on your backed-up computer somewhere, and/or in your safe/safety-deposit box.


sonofsven

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2022, 09:13:11 AM »
Sorry to hear about your fire, what a stressful situation!
I run lean on insurance myself, with high deductibles, because I would rebuild the house myself if necessary, obviously not for everyone.
Just a note on fire suppression (sprinkler) systems. I've put them in three new construction houses. They aren't really designed to "put out the fire" and save the structure, but to provide a better chance for the occupants to escape.
There will be a lot of water damage after.
Good luck on your rebuild. Prices are high and most manufactured construction items are multiple months out, rather than weeks.
You might notice lots of new construction homes have missing garage doors...

BeanCounter

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2022, 09:42:00 AM »
This thread has me thinking about how to best protect family pictures and important documents. Has anyone purchased a fire safe or those waterproof-fireproof bags for pictures? Where do you store birth certificates and passports? Should I get a safe deposit box? Which documents really need to be protected.

I think family pictures are the physical things that would be most important for me to protect. And maybe take pictures and make a list valuable jewelry. Documents would just be the things we'd need to easily restart life. Everything else in my house are inherited family items or well used purchases that can be replaced.

For photos I find have them digitized and backed up on redundant drives is the most secure way to go - we use Google Cloud for off-site but also have our drives backed up on external hard drives both at work and home.  Physical photographs are too easily damage (by water, fire, smoke, you name it...) and even when printed on archival paper with archival inks will start to fade after several decades.

We also have digital copies of our passports, birth certificates and SS cards, stored on our password manager (i use 1password - wife uses something else through work).  We actually got through customs one time by showing them our scanned copy of our passport ()which they verified in their system). Not a guarantee and YMMV, but it certainly helped us.

A safe deposit box is certainly a great way of protecting the physical documents, but requires a monthly (small) fee and can be a pain if you move around as much as we do, and you have to plan around banking-hours to access your stuff.  We have a fire-rated filing cabinet (PITA to move - heavy!!) which stores our important documents which we are supposed to grab in case of an emergency.  But as Sailor Sam said you need to have a well defined evac plan and drill, drill, drill.  We have the former but haven't done the latter.  Plus there's a good chance we wouldn't be home during an emergency, so who knows. 

Beyond that an annual archiving of your stuff with a digital camera can be invaluable during an insurance claim (we did exactly this, and it was an enormous help). Anything that costs >$1,000 write down the model & serial number & date/place of purchase, and store it on your backed-up computer somewhere, and/or in your safe/safety-deposit box.

Great tips! Thanks @nereo!
For scanning photos, did you do it yourself or professionally? I’d love to have my wedding photos scanned but I’ve heard some places will not scan professional photos due to copyright. Anyone encountered this?

For the safe deposit box, we qualify for personal banking with PNC due to net worth and a free safety deposit box is part of the deal. Might be an option for others on the forum, at least worth asking about!

Loren Ver

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2022, 02:42:39 PM »
I'm so sorry this happened to you and I am so glad that you all made it out okay and your neighbors rock!

Also, thank you for sharing what you are learning!  This is part of what makes this community truly great.  I have a friend that had a very bad house fire (property damage only) a few years ago, but it was an opportunity to commiserate and express woos, not share learning and help those around him.  Very different mindset from very different types of people!   Both have their place, and I am glad you are here sharing.

I upped our policy last year when we renewed, but I think I should give it another looking over given your advice :).

Loren

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2022, 06:50:05 PM »
Thanks for sharing your experience, @Laura33

We recently reviewed our homeowners' insurance policy, and had to dramatically increase the covered amount due to the insane inflation over the last couple of years.  Here's hoping it's enough!

Is it ethical to purchase the replacement objects at full retail, turn in the receipts, then return the objects and then trip down to the thrift store?

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2022, 07:24:29 PM »
Thank you also for sharing this @Laura33 - so sorry for what you have been going through and you have certainly provided food for thought.   

nereo

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2022, 04:58:02 AM »

Is it ethical to purchase the replacement objects at full retail, turn in the receipts, then return the objects and then trip down to the thrift store?

Well…. With your implications I’d say “no”, but I’ll quickly add “that’s not how replacement insurance works” IME.

Replacement cost coverage pays you the current cost (or repair cost) of an item without deducting for depreciation. The insurance company issues a cheque (or more likely a series of checks as your claims are processed) for what their actuaries consider the “replacement cost” of all your damaged stuff, but there’s no expectation or requirement that you re-purchase similar items.. If they value your exercise bike at $800 there’s no reason why you can’t buy a used on on Marketplace - or - decide you’d rather buy a sofa instead.

The amount they pay you is for the items you lost which were covered under your policy (and that you had been paying premiums to insure). The money is NOT for you to buy new equivalent things. What you spend the money on is up to you.

Raenia

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2022, 05:53:20 AM »
Thanks for sharing Laura!  So glad you're safe, and grateful for what you've shared.  Lots of food for thought!

Replacement cost coverage pays you the current cost (or repair cost) of an item without deducting for depreciation. The insurance company issues a cheque (or more likely a series of checks as your claims are processed) for what their actuaries consider the “replacement cost” of all your damaged stuff, but there’s no expectation or requirement that you re-purchase similar items.. If they value your exercise bike at $800 there’s no reason why you can’t buy a used on on Marketplace - or - decide you’d rather buy a sofa instead.

The amount they pay you is for the items you lost which were covered under your policy (and that you had been paying premiums to insure). The money is NOT for you to buy new equivalent things. What you spend the money on is up to you.


Based on what Laura said previously, that doesn't seem to be the case.  Maybe it depends on your insurer?  But I wouldn't assume you will get full 'new' replacement value if you don't plan to replace the item.  Better to verify that with your insurer ahead of time, and/or read your coverage documents very carefully.

Also, FYI, for the "replacement value" aspect for personal items, the insurance company is a little clever.  If you actually replace something in kind, they pay for the full replacement.  However, if you just want to take the money, they will pay you only the depreciated value.  So my son is thrilled, because he gets to buy all new Lego sets and rebuild them.  But if I don't want to replace all of my work clothes (because, say, I now work at home and have not worn a single item of clothing without some percentage of Lycra in two years), I get the Goodwill price for used clothes.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2022, 09:27:40 AM »
To answer a question above:  right now the house is not habitable.  The actual fire damage is maybe 1/3 of the 3rd floor and 1/10th of the second, if that, plus the bike storage area that got completely fried.  But there is no power, the smoke smell is overwhelming, and they've cut out pieces of various floors and walls (IDK why -- either to see the structure or ID the type of finish), so there's a lot of trip hazards and unusable showers lacking tile and such.  And it will be a long time for those things to be fixed -- I'm confident they won't turn the power back on until they've redone all the electric, and then replacing or cleaning the walls and finishing the floors will be some of the very last things they do.  I will be happy to move back in before everything is done; we've done the major reno thing and lived with a makeshift kitchen for months at a time.  But I can't imagine it will be less than 18 months even to get to that point.

@nereo -- I would be thrilled to get a check for full replacement value for everything that was lost, because I could use that money much more efficiently now (I originally wrote "spend," but the reality is that I would save most of it!).  But they were clear that we get only depreciated value if we choose not to re-buy.  One thing I am really struggling with right now is that perverse incentive to buy more than I need to take full advantage of the coverage.  For example, maybe 15 years ago I went on a streak of buying leather purses from Coach.  I have like 2 bins of them now that are just sitting there, because I don't really even carry a purse any more.  But that means my choices are either going on a big shopping spree and buying 10-15 purses that I don't actually need (because it's a deal!!), or to take a check for maybe, what $200 for their residual value.  This is actually a bad example, because I suspect the purses would have at least some residual value, but all those work clothes and kitchen gadgets and sheets/towels and such will not. 

As of now, my plan is simply to buy what I need -- which will definitely take more than a month or two as we work through the seasons -- and then to take a check for the rest.  It really is a great opportunity to get rid of a bunch of crap I don't need or want and start fresh.  But I'm used to focusing on the questions of (1) do I need it, and (2) if I do or really really want it, what's the best deal I can find?  So having this incentive to shop-till-you-drop at overpriced luxury shops lends a surreal nature to daily life.  Which is actually the reason I posted here in the first place, because it is truly the anti-Mustachian lifestyle that is being pushed.

bmjohnson35

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2022, 09:32:20 AM »

I may have missed it, but is there any chance you had important paperwork in a firesafe and it was exposed to the fire?  We keep our documents in a fire safe and I have always wondered if they work as advertised.

Laura33

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Re: Lessons learned
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2022, 09:41:16 AM »

I may have missed it, but is there any chance you had important paperwork in a firesafe and it was exposed to the fire?  We keep our documents in a fire safe and I have always wondered if they work as advertised.

Nope.  Sorry.  We have been saying we need one of those for years now and are lucky that the fire didn't touch the first floor at all.