Less income, improved lifestyle

[Off the Wheel]

I'd love to hear from those who have forfeited a higher income for 'lifestyle' - whether that is switching out of a high stress job, staying home with the kids, moving from a HCOL to a LCOL area, etc - or from those who made the other choice, sticking it out in order to save more and hopefully FIRE earlier.

COVID is making me take a step back and reevaluate some of my choices. (Along with having an 8-month old.)  I currently live in a VHCOL area, both my husband and I work long hours, and we have high expenses looming - a $2000+ mortgage, and about the same (or more!) in childcare when I go back to work in a few months. Unable to participate in city life for a while now, we've realized we don't actually miss it or like it all that much (this is not a new realization, but it's crystallized.)

We're now seriously considering selling our properties in the city, buying something without a mortgage in a lower cost of living area, and making some income sacrifices for lifestyle. My husband would get a remote f/t job, and I would do p/t freelance work.

The rationale is I don't want to be working 50+ hours a week while my child(ren) aren't in school, I don't want to be spending almost $5K a month in mortgage/childcare, and I don't want so many of our waking hours spent in the hustle (traffic/commuting, etc.) ... but it is a big change. We've been trained to think that a well-paying job is the ultimate 'win' as an adult, and I would definitely be sacrificing some of my top earning years in pursuit of something more flexible. It could impact FIRE dates, though maybe it wouldn't since our expenses would go down. It also triggers my feminist thinking - am I leaning out/sacrificing my career for my kid(s) and our lifestyle? Will I regret it? (And it would be me moving to p/t, that doesn't really exist in my husband's line of work and he also wants to work full time, whereas I don't necessarily.)

What choices have you made when it comes to income vs lifestyle? How do you feel about those choices? How did you decide what was right for you/your family?

[Chris @ Saturday Financial]

My wife and I made a collective decision to forfeit a higher household income so that she could be the primary caregiver for our children until they go to school. Critically, this was something we both wanted, and neither of us was pushing the other.

Yes, it delayed our FI timeline. Yes, it's been worth it to live a life that aligns with our values now, before waiting for FI.

Decisions like these are highly personal, but you're doing the right thing by reflectively asking these questions. This has been our experience for the last 3 years since our first son was born:

My wife gets to be with our kids and enjoy all the little joyful moments that are hidden in the "ordinary" of everyday life with kids. It should be noted that she also experiences the frustrating, mundane, and repetitive tasks that come with raising small children.

My wife quit a job with a non-profit that she enjoyed. Now 90% of her time is devoted to childcare. During our kid's nap time each day, she pursues her passion of visual art (oil on canvas). She's quite talented and recently launched a small business that will (probably) be profitable in another 12 months or so. Originally we thought she might return to her old job after 7-9 years. As much as she enjoyed her previous job, she LOVES painting. Now she plans to just continue painting once the kids are in school, and with the increased time she'll have at that point it will almost certainly be profitable. This potential long-term shift may not have ever happened if we hadn't made the medium-term decision to downshift to one income a few years ago.

[Linea_Norway]

When you move to a low COL area, your housing expenses will go dramatically down, and maybe some lifestyle costs as well (fancy restaurants and coffees). So I think the lower income would not matter that much.
In my last job, I worked outside the city for a half governmental job and accepted a 20% in income. Just the fact that I lost two hours of commute each day and was not depending on unreliable trains, was a big improvement. Suddenly I could relax in the mornings, when not bound to a train time table. And when I would go home early, I would be home really early. Time enough to make pizza dough from scratch. But, the job was not lower stress, although I think that was due to my dedication of wanting to do a good job.
I don't have children, but children would only give you better arguments to live a more relaxed life. A shorter commute is worth a lot.

[tooqk4u22]

When our kids were babies my DW wanted to stay at home, she worked hard and a lot but had flexibility and I worked endlessly without flexibility (i.e. typical corporate drone early in career but wanting to grow).  The hitch was that she made a little more than me, which doesn't mean anything more than it would have been a big financial sacrifice. What we do....she stayed home for 5-6 years until the youngest was in school and that time her professional inclinations kept coming back.   

How did it work out, wonderfully.   She became the primary caregiver so there was less pressure and stress day to day for both of us (and likely our kids) and I focused exhaustively on career and increasing income.   On weekends or down days, I spent as much time with her and them and she could sleep in, take long baths, or whatever was needed for her to decompress from her long work week.  And I would do a lot of the home chores then too.  I never understood my peers who had similar home fronts would go golfing or fishing all weekend and wives were still doing all the stuff.  First off I wanted to see my family bc during the week I hardly saw them (I was out before they got up and I would typically get home about 8:30 just in time to read to them and say goodnight before eating my dinner - btw, this period put me FIRE on my radar). 

On the feminist note, don't worry about that bc that's the point. 

-Feminism should be about options and making choices that are important to you.   There is a big difference between having to stay home with the kids and do all the housework bc your better half doesn't want you to work or won't help at all and deciding that you would like to stay home bc you want to, its in your view in the best interest of your family, etc.  If you are married/partnered, it should be a partnership with give and take that are working toward a mutual goals.   

-One thing to note is that if you are out of the work force for an extend period of time 3-5+ years there will be an element of starting over when you go back, and that's ok but and it should be understood even if ego says otherwise.  When my DW went back it was PT in a slightly different field and she basically netted nothing after figuring for after school care and taxes/other work expenses (the extra income is all at the marginal rate not the effective rate, and I was in a higher bracket).   Still it was important to her to regain her professional identity so we made it work.  And it worked well bc she is awesome.  Here we are some years later, she got back into her prior industry FT and was promoted several times. 

[Cassie]

I stayed home until the youngest of 3 were in school. By that time the oldest was 12. I then went to college. When asked what I had done with my time was honest. My first professional job was only part time. Eventually got a good job in my field and earned a pension. I never regretted the decision.

[Metalcat]

We chopped over 60% of our combined income, but our lifestyle, health, and marriage have dramatically improved.

There's absolutely nothing noble or feminist about subscribing to the social pressure to "have it all" by being as successful as possible, while also juggling kids, a marriage, and your personal well being.

If your current lifestyle isn't happy and healthy, then it's nothing to be proud of.

You have one life, and only you can control how you choose to live it. The only admirable path is the one that is best for you, and only you can decide what that path is.

For us, cutting back was such an easy decision because we both love working, just not too much. When we talk about retirement, we talk about what kind of teaching and consulting we'll take on. There's no scenario for us where we don't end up with too much money, so why bother working to uncomfortable levels just to maximize income in these particular years???

If your best life consists of working really hard right now so that you can fully retire and never have to do any paid work ever again, then maximizing your earning now might be your best bet.

It really all depends on what you actually want from your life.

[mm1970]

It also triggers my feminist thinking - am I leaning out/sacrificing my career for my kid(s) and our lifestyle? Will I regret it?

I understand this line of thinking.  I agree with the whole "lean in" ideas except for this -

The business world, and working world, in many ways is STILL a man's world.  Women get paid less (even if they aren't married and don't have children.) 

Having children hurts a woman's career and helps a man's career.

Because the working land is set up this way, it makes little sense to do the "feminist" thing to just keep working using the existing rules.  The existing rules kind of suck.  When the paradigm shifts enough that men are encouraged to take time off to be with their kids when they are sick, or take paternity leave...or when companies are more flexible to allow flex time/ WFH/ part time work for everyone - THEN consider the feminist angle.

On one hand, if we don't fight it, it won't get better.  I have two kids and I work full time - but I had a good 3 years of part time work when they were younger, I use flex time when needed and WFH when needed.  Things are better for me, (and other women and men), thanks to people like me forcing these issues.  I'm not gonna lie though - my pay very much still sucks (it should be noted, that - "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" - I chose to take part time work and flexibility AFTER it was clear that pay was not going to follow performance - not the other way around.

[Gremlin]

Mrs Gremlin and I have twice made pretty fundamental changes to our lives that involved big career and lifestyle trade-offs.  A couple of things I would suggest...

1.  Make sure you are both completely on board with whatever you ultimately decide to do.  These situations can either bring a couple much closer together or drive a wedge between them.

2.  Understand the pros and cons of the different options.  From experience, it's much easier to acknowledge the cons of the current situation and the pros of the alternative than the other way round.  Take your time to properly understand this often isn't a choice solely between a better career and a better home life.  There are elements of both that will be better and there are elements of both that will be harder under each scenario.  Run your numbers but recognise that this isn't just a numerical exercise.

3.  Take time to really think about what your lifestyle will really be like in a LCOL environment.  Don't just think about the "If I live in <<location>>, on the weekend I can..." aspect of it (but by all means do that).  What does a regular school/work day look like?  What will your social circle look like and how much will that need to be rebuilt?  How does this move impact visiting family if that's important to you?  What are the things that really bring you joy now and can you replicate that or are you compromising that?  What new things do you expect will bring you joy and how can you "road test" them before you relocate?

4.  Take time to evaluate what could be changed in your current lifestyle to address the issues you want to see changed.  Picking up the family and moving to a LCOL is one solution.  Is it the only solution?  Is it the best solution?

5.  Ultimately you should choose to live you best lives.  Everyone you know will have an opinion on this.  Some will happily tell you that you're choosing to ruin to career.  Some will tell you how lucky you are to be able to choose whatever option you choose.  All of them will be reflecting their own values on your personal situation.  None of them know how to value what you value in order to live your best lives.

[Bloop Bloop]

I dropped my working hours by 20%. After accounting for income tax and sales tax, the total net loss is only 8%. I decided it was a worthwhile sacrifice.

[aGracefulStomp]

I took a 20% cut in pay to go from the private sector to public sector. That 20% bought me (which is how I see it) much lower working hours, lower stress, more reasonable colleagues, better mentorship, more annual leave and sick leave. I don't regret what I did for a second. My hourly pay-rate actually soared. I don't wake up dreading going into work. I finish work before the sun is down. No working on the weekend. There's a healthy culture where colleagues are really engaged but also acknowledge that its just a job.

As you've raised, the lifestyle costs of many high-paying jobs are huge - I call this the "job tax". It's the convenience costs (like extended/additional childcare), as well as spending money in order to cope with the job (aka expensive holidays because you are too exhausted to do anything that requires effort and you desperately need some "treat yourself" luxury; having a nicer house then you would normally need because you want to come home to something luxurious). The result is that you end up working your high stress job in order to pay the job tax, which is tax that only arises because of the high stress job. It's like an infinite loop of insanity.

At the end of the day, when you take into account all the taxes (government tax and the job tax), are you really that far ahead? I would strongly recommend doing a spreadsheet and compare what the actual numbers are. You may have thought that you were doing it for the money but now that you've looked at the numbers, the plan isn't working. You will also need to be honest with yourself and ask if your job is serving non-financial needs. This can be fine, because perhaps you like the challenge, the skills you are learning, you may like leading a team of people. But it may also be a bit of ego in there, the need to feel important, the need to feel like you are keeping up with the joneses. Maybe its all a big mix!

In terms of the downside, I would say there's 3 big ones for me.

First, my pay is a bit stagnant. Colleagues from my private sector job are now on about 30-50% more than me, even though my pay has increased since I left. Tempted by the higher pay, I've started looking at what positions are out there. I'm torn between wanting higher pay so that I can increase my savings rate, but also wanting the same work-life balance. I don't know if I'll find anything. All the positions indicate significantly higher responsibility and higher stress. I just don't think I can get myself to buy into the bullshit enough to do it. I'll probably take one of those positions in the last year or two before FIRE as a final sprint, with a light at the end of the tunnel.

Second, there is a bit of ego that I can't shake with my friend's wages go up and mine staying still.

Third, it will push your FI date back. My current-expenses-FI-date went from being about 5-6 years away to about 9-10 years (which takes into account the pay rises I have forgone). It was worthwhile for me, but it's important to keep that in mind. 

[Cassie]

I could have made a lot more money in the private sector but having my pension is priceless.

[Off the Wheel]

Thank you for all the insight, everyone.

I like the idea of being honest with the pro's/con's and trade offs of each option. I really don't have it bad - I love my job and my company, and it's not that stressful - but it does require a lot more of my time (obviously) than something freelance would, and it ties me to a city I don't want to be in anymore.

[Metalcat]

Thank you for all the insight, everyone.

I like the idea of being honest with the pro's/con's and trade offs of each option. I really don't have it bad - I love my job and my company, and it's not that stressful - but it does require a lot more of my time (obviously) than something freelance would, and it ties me to a city I don't want to be in anymore.

I would think much much broader than that.

What are you giving up by using up to much or your time working? What could you be doing with that time instead? Are those options more valuable than money?

In my case, the questions had really obvious answers because my job was literally destroying my body. Even if I did absolutely nothing with my newfound free time, being able to walk and use my arms for the rest of my life was worth far more than the millions I was giving up.

That's an extreme example, but it really emphasizes how it's the personal factors that determine the best course of action.

Just disliking your city alone could be a factor large enough to justify a career move. I know for me it would, I'm extremely picky about where I live, that was a huge driving force behind why I picked my career initially: freedom to work anywhere regardless of economic conditions. I actually abandoned a career path before that just to avoid getting stuck in a city I didn't like.

Maybe that's a huge factor for you, maybe it isn't.
That's the thing, it's the softer, less quantifiable factors that really do matter more than the obvious surface metrics when it comes to these decisions.

Right now I have 3 really lucrative options to do work that would pay me very well and require no additional training. However, we don't need the money and I would be miserable in those jobs, and all 3 lock me into a location. No thanks.

Instead, I'm spending a year doing an additional degree to open up a much less lucrative, but far more interesting career path that's even more geographically flexible and opens up way more volunteer opportunity doors than my old profession.

Don't just contemplate what you can comfortably tolerate, really dig into what you want your life to look like.

My favourite mental exercise is to figure out what I would do if there was no fear holding me back from anything. I may not choose to actually *do* that thing, some fear is incredibly valid, like worrying about losing the use of my arms, but it sure as shit helps clarify what my most honest desires and motivations are.

[Off the Wheel]

OTW, I know your city well and the rat race is real ;)

I did not make this jump for the record but I can comment that it is very difficult for 2 working professionals with kids to keep things together. It's hard! Sacrificing income does not necessarily mean a lessor lifestyle. It could be enhanced dramatically as others have pointed out.

Honestly, I think I would have been very happy if my ex-wife were at home more when the kids were toddlers. It's very hard to hand your kids over to daycare and honestly if you don't go through 2 or 3 of them when your kids are <5 YO then you have done incredibly well.

Good luck with the decision ;)

I was hoping you'd jump in! It's partly your (and Stasher's) MTB/lifestyle BC pics that make me wonder what the hell I'm doing in the city.

I appreciate the insight. I honestly can't imagine how tough it's going to be when we're both working, and both commuting. Daycares for the under 3 set are also impossible to find (not sure if that was the case when you were here.) We have a 'guaranteed' spot in a corporate centre but it will be $2400/month... and the location isn't guaranteed, so it could add to the commute. We're probably going to have to get a nanny, which will end up costing $3K+. It's insanity. Definitely begs the question... what am I working so hard for, exactly?

Hope you're well.

[asauer]

My husband and I stopped climbing the corporate ladder.  We both had good incomes but going 'further' for him meant management and he has absolutely no appetite for the drama and politics that come with that.  I have had promotion opportunities to exec level but same for me.  It would cost me way more time than I'm willing to give and I'm just not that good at ass kissing.  So, now we're in a sweet spot of good incomes and also some time on our hands for family and hobbies.  I can't wait to retire early but the situation is ok for now.

[slackmax]

I went from computer programmer making $80,000 per year to long haul trucker making $50,000 per year. The trucking job, which I was destined for, imo, had 10% of the stress of programming, and 62.5% of the income.  I was very happy I made the change.

[Off the Wheel]

@FIRE_at_45 one kid. It's stupid.

@slackmax interesting! What makes you feel you're destined for trucking? I'm always intrigued by people who feel very passionate or connected to their work. I fell into mine.

@asauer I feel that. I have a senior management position and although I do love my boss/company/team, it means golden handcuffs in terms of access and availability.

[LWYRUP]

I remember when our DD was born paying 20k for part time (would be $35k for full time) infant care near DW's work in downtown Boston.  This was back in 2014 so it's probably worse now.  This was not a special facility, this was the going rate.

Years later, I am out of biglaw and in government and DW is a SAHM and we have three kids.  But we now save 30% of our income instead of 75%. 

Knowing everything I know, I would do it all again.  (Just hopefully with less angst knowing the outcome would all be OK.)

We have not yet taken the full leap and left our HCOL area (even worse than Boston area, actually -- family) but we've structured things to reasonably minimize commuting (closest office building to my house, though now everyone is all remote anyways) and working hours (45-50 before pandemic, now I'm doing 40 and more childcare as part of pandemic coping).  Moving will be a topic of serious discussion down the road depending on how career decisions play out. 

DW doesn't seem particularly concerned about the politics of it, but she will certainly earn income at some point in the future (and if she really wants to be gung-ho in her career, once we are FIRE I could use a break and do a spell as a SAHD). 

In any case, I am supportive of people of all genders trying to chart a course where work and life work together to support each other.  I find this culture where we are all taught to "sacrifice" to "find fulfillment" working endless hours for large corporations to be sort of odd. 

The goal is self-actualization and paid work is an important puzzle piece towards that end.  It's neither the enemy nor the end in itself. 

[Stasher]

We made the big jump when the kids were 12 and 14 so I don't have any relevant feedback for making a MMM lifestyle switch with toddlers. For us it was about deciding we needed the change and that we would accept the good or the bad as it came. We sold everything, moved across the country to a more affordable place (hard to believe here is cheaper) and I decided I would try to keep my job working remotely with some travel or I would take whatever I could find here if that didn't work out. We lucked out and my employer didn't want to loose me so they allowed me to work from home and travel on a rotation to meet my clients.

I did that for 3 years and SAVED everything and continued to sell more of our belongings to get us to where we are now. I didn't quite have enough to comfortably FIRE but wanted to take hold of my time now. I didn't want to trade working any longer for my healthiest years so work had to end. We are now LEAN Fire and it is tough, you constantly fight the pressure to buy stuff, go out to restaurants, go on trips and live beyond your means. I struggle with this all the time, of wanting things but knowing to do so I would have to give up my time.

So I get used to making due with what I have and find the joy in more with less. I am not suffering or going without anything, it is just the difference of those high income days where you just dropped cash without thinking. Now you think about all you spend on intentionally, which in my opinion is a good thing.

Thanks for tagging me to this post @FIRE_at_45

[canuckiwi]

I know the thought process you are going through. 5 years ago I moved from your city over to Vancouver Island with my wife and two kids (2 year old and 2 month old at the time). We just did not see a future in that VHCOL city that didn't involve working all the time, full time child care and (if lucky) a bigger apartment to rent.

It was a great move and we now have everything we wanted, but work less to have it. Young children are easier to relocate than older children. Removing $4K+ of childcare and mortgage from your monthly bill means a lot less working is required.

Use this time out of your normal routine to assess what actually makes you happy, and what actually is interesting. The weird thing about VHCOL cities is that all media and news articles written in the city, are about the city. Until you step back, it can be hard to notice that people live happy and productive lives outside your city.

[canuckiwi]

Regarding your concern of "am I leaning out/sacrificing my career for my kid(s) and our lifestyle?"  The answer is yes, you will be reducing the time and energy on your career and redirecting it to kid(s) and lifestyle. That is not an inherently bad thing. A career is not inherently better than being a good and lifestyle-satisfied parent.

Try to remember that the 1% or less of workers who make it to the apex of their career path either do not have children, or are by necessity un-engaged and un-available parents.

[slackmax]

I went from computer programmer making $80,000 per year to long haul trucker making $50,000 per year. The trucking job, which I was destined for, imo, had 10% of the stress of programming, and 62.5% of the income.  I was very happy I made the change.

That's a very interesting change. I saw a program on trucking and how things will change with automation and it sort of indicated the opposite...that trucking is stressful. No!?

Trucking *can* be stressful. Depends on the kind of trucking you do. Some is low stress, like my job was, which was driving the same route every day. Could be boring, but not very stressful. The stressful trucking is having a job that requires you to find new locations every day, figure out and then back the behemoth into the unloading dock, hoping cars don't make things more difficult.   

So, for ME, not much stress. I will admit I had a cream puff route. Drove the same route every day, almost. It would stress me out a lot to have to drive around a congested city every day, to different locations. Those drivers are either crazy, or just very skilled, or maybe both. They do make more money than my kind of driver, however.   

Another stress drivers have is fatigue. They may have pressure from the boss to keep driving even though they're about to fall asleep at the wheel. I had the luxury of being able to pull into a rest stop and have the classic 15 minute nap when needed, and still be on time.

Now that I think of it, I must say I aged about 12 years in the 6 years I drove, even with the 'low stress' route. Not so great, huh? That was due to the 14 hour work days, all done at night, I think.     

[ericrugiero]

It also triggers my feminist thinking - am I leaning out/sacrificing my career for my kid(s) and our lifestyle? Will I regret it? (And it would be me moving to p/t, that doesn't really exist in my husband's line of work and he also wants to work full time, whereas I don't necessarily.)

What choices have you made when it comes to income vs lifestyle? How do you feel about those choices? How did you decide what was right for you/your family?

You would be choosing a different path than focusing on your career.  If you give your career less focus then it will almost certainly suffer in terms of promotions and pay.  That isn't better or worse, it's just a choice you are making.  The line of thinking that every woman needs to focus on her career to "prove" that women are just as capable isn't good.  Women should have the choice to focus on their careers and advance as they deserve just like men should.  If they choose other priorities that is fine as well.   

Don't put pressure on yourself to fight for your gender by making yourself unhappy.  Choose the life that is best for you and your family.  It's entirely up to you and your husband. 

[MoseyingAlong]

I went from computer programmer making $80,000 per year to long haul trucker making $50,000 per year. The trucking job, which I was destined for, imo, had 10% of the stress of programming, and 62.5% of the income.  I was very happy I made the change.

That's a very interesting change. I saw a program on trucking and how things will change with automation and it sort of indicated the opposite...that trucking is stressful. No!?

Trucking *can* be stressful. Depends on the kind of trucking you do. Some is low stress, like my job was, which was driving the same route every day. Could be boring, but not very stressful. The stressful trucking is having a job that requires you to find new locations every day, figure out and then back the behemoth into the unloading dock, hoping cars don't make things more difficult.   

So, for ME, not much stress. I will admit I had a cream puff route. Drove the same route every day, almost. It would stress me out a lot to have to drive around a congested city every day, to different locations. Those drivers are either crazy, or just very skilled, or maybe both. They do make more money than my kind of driver, however.   

Another stress drivers have is fatigue. They may have pressure from the boss to keep driving even though they're about to fall asleep at the wheel. I had the luxury of being able to pull into a rest stop and have the classic 15 minute nap when needed, and still be on time.

Now that I think of it, I must say I aged about 12 years in the 6 years I drove, even with the 'low stress' route. Not so great, huh? That was due to the 14 hour work days, all done at night, I think.     

I spent a few months as a truck driver last year. Anywhere in the 48 states, new and different places everyday. It was interesting and exciting and I want to do some more soon.
But yes, it was stressful. The 2 most stressful situations were when car drivers going the opposite direction were impatient and pulled out in front of me to pass someone on their side of a city street. One in particular, I thought he was going to die and there was no way I could stop a truck with 45,000 pounds of beer in time. Thankfully, some of the other drivers were paying more attention and made room so he could pull back over. This was in a town, about 3PM, near a school, crowded traffic, going less than 20 mph. Not even highway speeds.
Otherwise, finding a place to park if it was late was the next most stressful part.

[LWYRUP]

Just generally speaking, I find myself more likely to be frustrated with my choices when I make them to satisfy some sort of externally imposed ideological framework or cultural expectation and more likely to be satisfied with my choices when I think carefully and determine that the choices are the best expression of the specific path I want to carve out for myself and my family. 

[slackmax]

@slackmax interesting! What makes you feel you're destined for trucking? I'm always intrigued by people who feel very passionate or connected to their work. I fell into mine.

 

My destiny? Well, it was a profession I was always interested in, but it was 'forbidden' to me, in my socioeconomic sphere. Parents were both college grads, Dad was a PhD, very successful.   

They both 'wanted what was best for me', but it had to be a white collar profession. Not something 'any high school dropout' could do.

But one day, while I was hanging out with my parents, and complaining about how awful my high paying programming job was, my Dad said (jokingly, I guess) 'You know, it's not too late to become a truck driver'. I didn't say anything immediately, but it was that remark that I took privately to mean he was OK with it. The  rest is history, lol. 

[Metalcat]

Just generally speaking, I find myself more likely to be frustrated with my choices when I make them to satisfy some sort of externally imposed ideological framework or cultural expectation and more likely to be satisfied with my choices when I think carefully and determine that the choices are the best expression of the specific path I want to carve out for myself and my family.

Yep, the moment you are on a path that feels like the path you are supposed to be on, but you aren't 100% happy with, it's best to challenge *why* you feel you should be on that path.

Somewhere along the way someone (or many someone's) tried telling you what you should do...and they weren't necessarily anywhere near right.

A lot of the rules and expectations we apply to ourselves actually belong to other people.

[AMandM]

Just generally speaking, I find myself more likely to be frustrated with my choices when I make them to satisfy some sort of externally imposed ideological framework or cultural expectation and more likely to be satisfied with my choices when I think carefully and determine that the choices are the best expression of the specific path I want to carve out for myself and my family.

Yep, the moment you are on a path that feels like the path you are supposed to be on, but you aren't 100% happy with, it's best to challenge *why* you feel you should be on that path.

Somewhere along the way someone (or many someone's) tried telling you what you should do...and they weren't necessarily anywhere near right.

A lot of the rules and expectations we apply to ourselves actually belong to other people.

This.

OP, if money were not an issue, how would *you* (both you and your husband) want to live your life? How would you want your children to live their childhood? Let that vision guide your thinking.

My husband and I, both jointly and individually, have made choices that make our income severely lower than it "should" be by conventional standards for two people with as much brains and education as we have. In exchange for that income differential, he gets paid to do something he loves for a nonprofit whose cause we believe in, we both do some freelance work, we have lots of kids, we have a relaxed lifestyle with lots of DIY including homeschooling, we live among four generations of extended family.

Interestingly, these choices make FIRE much less important. If we'd joined the rat race, we'd want to earn as much as possible as fast as possible so we could get out and lead the life we want as soon as possible. But since we already live the life we want, there won't be much difference between retired and working. I also suspect that if we had joined the rat race it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to create our ideal life afterwards. In particular, I don't know whether we could have had kids in daycare and school, and then upon retirement switch to a homemade/DIY/homeschooling lifestyle without the gradual acquisition of skills and attitudes.

Good luck to you, OP. These are hard choices.

[Wrenchturner]

We're now seriously considering selling our properties in the city, buying something without a mortgage in a lower cost of living area, and making some income sacrifices for lifestyle. My husband would get a remote f/t job, and I would do p/t freelance work.

This sounds like a really good deal, especially for raising children.  Make sure the math checks out.

... but it is a big change.

I shouldn't give you much advice, but I'll say this: don't let the price of change interfere with your plans.  People tend to overprice the risk of self-imposed change and overprice the return of self-imposed stability.  And sometimes change gets imposed on you anyway by life, genetics, chance, etc.  Don't let risk aversion hold you back--keep in mind your anxiety if you look back thinking, "I should have taken that risk!"

This is called "anticipatory anxiety" and I think it's a vestigial element from our starving, hunter-gatherer days when risk was far more expensive.

[Gremlin]

[
I shouldn't give you much advice, but I'll say this: don't let the price of change interfere with your plans.  People tend to overprice the risk of self-imposed change and overprice the return of self-imposed stability.  And sometimes change gets imposed on you anyway by life, genetics, chance, etc.  Don't let risk aversion hold you back--keep in mind your anxiety if you look back thinking, "I should have taken that risk!"

This is called "anticipatory anxiety" and I think it's a vestigial element from our starving, hunter-gatherer days when risk was far more expensive.

Wow.  This is an awesome way of expressing this.  I fully intend to shamelessly plagiarise into the future.

[Wrenchturner]

[
I shouldn't give you much advice, but I'll say this: don't let the price of change interfere with your plans.  People tend to overprice the risk of self-imposed change and overprice the return of self-imposed stability.  And sometimes change gets imposed on you anyway by life, genetics, chance, etc.  Don't let risk aversion hold you back--keep in mind your anxiety if you look back thinking, "I should have taken that risk!"

This is called "anticipatory anxiety" and I think it's a vestigial element from our starving, hunter-gatherer days when risk was far more expensive.

Wow.  This is an awesome way of expressing this.  I fully intend to shamelessly plagiarise into the future.

Thanks!  Have at 'er!

[Kyle Schuant]

I chose to do paid work part-time so I could be a stay at home father full-time. It's definitely an improvement in overall quality of life.

Speaking generally, the defenders of the lockdown, when confronted with the suicides etc of a recession, have noted that recessions generally see an increase in life expectancy, as people are less stressed, drink and smoke less, walk more and so on. Which raises the difficult question: if our decisions about the public good must be based mainly on lives saved, should public health advocates encourage governments to push us into permanent recession?

More individually, if chasing increased wealth destroys a person, maybe they shouldn't do it. The purpose of money is to give you the kind of lifestyle you want. If you can get that lifestyle without money, then...?

I went for a walk with my wife and children through the nearby park yesterday, and in the forested part they built a cubby house. Then I went for a longer walk with my son and we talked about life, he asked me about my childhood. We had a nice time, and not a dollar was spent or earned.

We do need shelter and food and so on. Obviously, some money is necessary - but this is much less than is commonly supposed. As Thoreau said, it is not necessary that a man earn his living by the sweat of his brow, unless he sweat easier than I do.

[Just Joe]

When I was single I was in the military and was stationed in all sorts of HCOL areas. I was enlisted and thus had to stretch my dollars in these places. I did the rush hour drive to work and home again part of that time and when my enlistment was over, I was "done" with HCOL places. I felt (feel) that HCOL places are great places to be high income DINKS, and not at all where I would want to raise a family. COL, cost of real estate, seeking good schools, wearing out cars on commutes, etc.

DW and I still like to vacation in some of those HCOL places but we like coming home again.

DW grew up near where I did (suburbs near a medium sized city) and living in a similar place just made sense after we were married. We both wanted to be an easy drive from family when we first married. Close enough we could visit but far enough away that we did our own things and made our own decisions. As it turned out our families were not as eager to drive to see us anywhere as often as we drove to see them. Note the drive would be considered a commute in a larger city. It made us far more self reliant and independent. I think it also has reinforced our marriage over the 2+ decades.

We live in an up and coming smaller town that is benefiting from regional growth. It is at the center of a micropolitan statistical area. It took a long time to get established professionally as opportunities were fewer back then, we truly had to work our way up from the bottom but we have solid professional career, flexibility to take care of family things, easy to take time off, etc. We make above average incomes. 

The lower cost of real estate here has allowed us to buy a large comfortable home on a larger than average patch of ground. Childcare was reasonable back when we needed it. Our kids tell us that they have enjoyed growing up here despite the conservative small town culture. Church is a big deal here for many but we are not religious so we didn't have that. I'm sure it would have been even better had we been a "churchy" family. Still we've all found our niches. Our eldest who is likely moving soon for a job (waiting to hear back on a job) wants to return after they are professionally established.

We both worked all the way through b/c when our kids were little we needed two low incomes to pay for a modest place to live, a cheap car to drive, childcare, etc. All the usual young family expenses. We did have the flexibility to adapt to whatever came up like a puny child or a school event that we wanted to attend. We did not need to work weird hours very often. We were not obligated to work overtime shifts or anything like that so our schedules were almost always 8-4:30PM. 

Our commutes have ranged from 10 minutes (now) to ~25 minutes back when we needed to drive all the way across town. It wasn't the distance but the stop lights that made the drive slow. Consequently cars lasted longer. Fuel consumption was low. We could bicycle when we wanted. I bicycle to work alot now.

Crime stats are very low. Like other places there is a portion of the population that struggles due to issues - self inflicted and otherwise. Drugs, low income, domestic issues, etc. They seldom affect the larger population. Violent crime is close to nil and petty theft depends on which part of town. 

You'll likely never see our town on TV or in movies but a close approximation would be Laurel, MS as seen in the HGTV network "Home Town" home renovation show. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Town_(TV_series)

I'm hoping that this pandemic shows employers that they don't always need to be headquartered in HCOL places to be successful. Would be nice if more people had an opportunity to live where they want and work online reducing traffic, pollution, and enabling their family budgets to be more flexible.

[Off the Wheel]

I've been quiet because a) thinking and b) baby, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate all your thoughtful responses. I know what I want to do, now it's just laying the foundation and building up the nerve to take the plunge.

[clarkfan1979]

In May 2015, my wife went from a full-time high stress job to part-time. She was making about 60K and working about 2,500 hours/year. This is 25.20/hr. Because she was a manager when she went on vacation she would still have to answer questions via email. If it couldn't be solved via email or an "emergency", she would have to take the call. It wasn't worth it for us.

She ended up staying with the same employer, but transitioned to part-time and no longer a management position. She made around $22/hour (20K/year). After that she transitioned to substitute teaching making $25/hour, but only 15K/year because she only worked 30 weeks/year.

Even though our income went down by 40K, our investment focus went up. We had more time to fix things ourselves. We were able to trim our budget and our waistlines, no problem. When we both worked a ton we would spend more money and our health would decline.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

I'd love to hear from those who have forfeited a higher income for 'lifestyle' - whether that is switching out of a high stress job, staying home with the kids, moving from a HCOL to a LCOL area, etc - or from those who made the other choice, sticking it out in order to save more and hopefully FIRE earlier.

What choices have you made when it comes to income vs lifestyle? How do you feel about those choices? How did you decide what was right for you/your family?

We made the decision 22 years ago to have me leave the workforce. I was a bank manager, making good money for my age, but I had the lower paying job and I was driving 100 miles round trip 5-6 days a week, whereas DH was walking or biking to work. We wanted to start a family, and didn't see how we could have the family culture we wanted if I was gone 11-12 hours each workday.

At the time, we owned a condo. After our second son was born in 2000, we bought a house half a mile from the condo (quarter mile as the crow flies) so DH could continue to walk or bike commute. We still live in the same house, in a tidy old neighborhood which has never had a lot of children, but we don't mind. We're walking distance to the library, the post office, a couple of parks, the outdoor amphitheater, the farmers market, and of course shops and restaurants although we aren't major shoppers or restaurant diners. We never moved "up the hill" as most of DH's coworkers did, which means we never inflated our lifestyle in terms of housing, but also means we didn't give up the amenities of living close to the center of town. Instead, I stayed home with our boys and homeschooled them K-12.

Now, with the boys ages 20 and 21, I can look back and say without hesitation I'm glad we made the choices we did. DH's income increased, so we increased retirement savings. We went on your basic, not so expensive in-state vacations. We've funded bicycle racing, which isn't cheap (the boys help out by working at a bike shop). We got out of vehicle debt and paid cash for our last car (one car for 3 drivers). The boys are going to college (community now, then in-state public 4 year) without incurring student loans.

In my early 50s, I'm in a place where people keep asking when I'm going to "go back to work" now that the boys are in college. My answer is that I'm retired. I've done my hard work to help us save money and we don't see why I would do the necessary education to reenter the workforce. There's plenty I could do to make money (selfishly employed) if I wanted to -- people often ask me if I'll tutor their children (maybe), homeschool their children (NO!), bake for them on a regular basis (it takes away the fun), etc. -- but right now I'm happy at home. DH will follow me into retirement in a few years -- right now he's happy with his career, and even more so now that he's working full time from home and may never have to work in the office again. FIRE goal is spring 2026 at the latest.

I gave up stress and a killer commute and gained time with my family. We saved so much money not having me commute, not buying dress clothes and shoes to refresh my professional wardrobe, not paying for dry cleaning, and of course, not paying for daycare. I no longer had to go to distant meetings and "retreats". I started gaining skills in money management, baking and cooking, mending, frugality, and more. Having one parent at home, DH didn't have to take time off for doctor's appointments or other small emergencies. He came home at lunch everyday to eat with us, strengthening our family culture (and savings money).

Of course, our arrangement required a strong marriage, along with commitment and trust, but I think it strengthened our marriage because we had more time together and common goals.

[Just Joe]

Sounds like a great formula!

[JoJo]

3.5 years ago I asked to go to 60% part time.  I work on projects so I asked to take several long vacations a year as long as I schedule around projects and set up back up for while I'm out.  Including holidays, I get about 21 weeks off work.  I've taken several 7-8 week trips.  It's a pretty sweet deal, but I'm still thinking about full retirement.

[Off the Wheel]

An update because I remain so grateful for those of you who took the time to reply...

We did it. We sold our investment property in 2020 because we knew we wanted to move.

I stuck to my 'downshifted' hours at 80% when I went back to work in late 2020. I created a career path that would enable me to keep that flexibility.

We visited a small mountain community in Feb 2021 and immediately fell in love. We bought a home sight-unseen that ticked all the boxes, then listed our primary residence in the spring. We were very fortunate to time the market and emerge without a mortgage.

We work remotely in a place we absolutely love. I work 4 days a week (with the goal of going down to 3) with very little overtime. We have no commute, and we walk down a forest path to a daycare.

And, thanks to a series of positive events on the income side and the change in lifestyle that minimizes what we have to spend on, our savings rate has gone through the roof.

We're happier.

It was the right decision. :)

[MrThatsDifferent]

An update because I remain so grateful for those of you who took the time to reply...

We did it. We sold our investment property in 2020 because we knew we wanted to move.

I stuck to my 'downshifted' hours at 80% when I went back to work in late 2020. I created a career path that would enable me to keep that flexibility.

We visited a small mountain community in Feb 2021 and immediately fell in love. We bought a home sight-unseen that ticked all the boxes, then listed our primary residence in the spring. We were very fortunate to time the market and emerge without a mortgage.

We work remotely in a place we absolutely love. I work 4 days a week (with the goal of going down to 3) with very little overtime. We have no commute, and we walk down a forest path to a daycare.

And, thanks to a series of positive events on the income side and the change in lifestyle that minimizes what we have to spend on, our savings rate has gone through the roof.

We're happier.

It was the right decision. :)

Because you put you and your family first, it was always going to be the right decision. Congratulations.

[Freedomin5]

Congratulations!

We did the same thing two years ago. I took a job that paid about 20% less, but we ended up with a higher savings rate because we were able to optimize our expenses.

[Off the Wheel]

An update because I remain so grateful for those of you who took the time to reply...

We did it. We sold our investment property in 2020 because we knew we wanted to move.

I stuck to my 'downshifted' hours at 80% when I went back to work in late 2020. I created a career path that would enable me to keep that flexibility.

We visited a small mountain community in Feb 2021 and immediately fell in love. We bought a home sight-unseen that ticked all the boxes, then listed our primary residence in the spring. We were very fortunate to time the market and emerge without a mortgage.

We work remotely in a place we absolutely love. I work 4 days a week (with the goal of going down to 3) with very little overtime. We have no commute, and we walk down a forest path to a daycare.

And, thanks to a series of positive events on the income side and the change in lifestyle that minimizes what we have to spend on, our savings rate has gone through the roof.

We're happier.

It was the right decision. :)

Because you put you and your family first, it was always going to be the right decision. Congratulations.

Such a lovely way to frame it.

[mistymoney]

I'd love to hear from those who have forfeited a higher income for 'lifestyle' - whether that is switching out of a high stress job, staying home with the kids, moving from a HCOL to a LCOL area, etc - or from those who made the other choice, sticking it out in order to save more and hopefully FIRE earlier.

COVID is making me take a step back and reevaluate some of my choices. (Along with having an 8-month old.)  I currently live in a VHCOL area, both my husband and I work long hours, and we have high expenses looming - a $2000+ mortgage, and about the same (or more!) in childcare when I go back to work in a few months. Unable to participate in city life for a while now, we've realized we don't actually miss it or like it all that much (this is not a new realization, but it's crystallized.)

We're now seriously considering selling our properties in the city, buying something without a mortgage in a lower cost of living area, and making some income sacrifices for lifestyle. My husband would get a remote f/t job, and I would do p/t freelance work.

The rationale is I don't want to be working 50+ hours a week while my child(ren) aren't in school, I don't want to be spending almost $5K a month in mortgage/childcare, and I don't want so many of our waking hours spent in the hustle (traffic/commuting, etc.) ... but it is a big change. We've been trained to think that a well-paying job is the ultimate 'win' as an adult, and I would definitely be sacrificing some of my top earning years in pursuit of something more flexible. It could impact FIRE dates, though maybe it wouldn't since our expenses would go down. It also triggers my feminist thinking - am I leaning out/sacrificing my career for my kid(s) and our lifestyle? Will I regret it? (And it would be me moving to p/t, that doesn't really exist in my husband's line of work and he also wants to work full time, whereas I don't necessarily.)

What choices have you made when it comes to income vs lifestyle? How do you feel about those choices? How did you decide what was right for you/your family?

It's a tough quesiton!

dug up this on

At age 22, the median yearly income for women with at least a bachelor’s degree is $40,400, compared with $52,500 for men with the same age and educational background. This $12,100 wage gap starts to shrink as women’s wages grow faster than men’s throughout most of their 20s. Around age 29, women’s wage growth starts to slow down while men’s wages keep growing, PayScale data shows. As women hit their late 30s and early 40s, their wages start to flatline. At age 44, women reach their earning peak, making a median salary of $66,700 per year. Meanwhile, men continue to see their wages grow, hitting their peak earning age at 55, making a median wage of $101,200 per year.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/20/how-womens-peak-earning-years-could-be-impacted-by-the-pandemic.html


I didn't have much choice as a single parent, but I did need to avoid travel heavy jobs, which was very limiting in my field so it did affect my ability to move around positions and companies, etc.

working PT I think it a good compromise. Keep current in your field, but not with a heavy load. So few FT jobs are 40 or fewer hours these days! When interviewing for our team, we had some people coming from PT work and it didn't matter to us, just the skills being used.

[clarkfan1979]

In May 2015 my wife quit her full time job (46.5 hours/week at 60K/year) to part-time (10 hours/week at 12k/year). She was physically at her employer 46.5/hours week. However, her employer started to send her home with work for her "days off." If you count the hours of work at home, it was probably 55 hours/week.

We were immediately happier because she was less stressed about her job. We also got to travel more because her schedule was now much more flexible. No fancy vacations because of the reduced income. However, still plenty of time to do lots of fun stuff.

Two years after she switched to part-time (May 2015) she gave birth to our son (May 2017). For us personally, it's been awesome having her work part-time with a small child not yet in the K-12 system.

[bmjohnson35]

What choices have you made when it comes to income vs lifestyle?  Although it may not be a fair comparison, we took a 65-70% cut in income when I FIRED 2 years ago.  This is actually deceiving, since we were investing a high percentage at the time and was paying substantially higher taxes. Although I miss some of the professional relationships from my career, I have zero regrets.  Our quality of life has only improved. 

How do you feel about those choices?  I left a high stress job where I was in charge of the operation and on call 24/7.  It is what I was working toward for years, so it was simply the next step for me. I have been able to focus on my health.  I appear to have my autoimmune disease in full remission.  I have reduced my medications by 75% and plan to quit taking my last autoimmune medication later this month.  This has required daily regiments of organic juicing 3x a day. Something I would have never been able to do while working.  I will be tapering off the juicing as well, but will probably have to maintain some for the rest of my life.  I'm also doing a combination of strength training and cardio 5 days a week now.  I haven't been in this good of health for decades.

How did you decide what was right for you/your family? All of our kids were out of the house, so our situation not very comparable to yours.  My spouse was fearful of me quitting my job at a relatively early age.  Leaving a successful/high paying career seemed crazy to her and she worried I would get bored.  So far, we're doing just fine.

[Ron Scott]

In our early 30s we gave up about 50% of our annual earned income so my wife could raise our daughter. That was a great “lifestyle“ decision that all of us appreciate even decades later.

I know a lot of people just don’t want to work, or work too many hours. Others may say, “she was just a stay at home mom“.  But my wife gave up what was turning out to be a very successful career she had planned for herself including with a masters degree. That is as much of a sacrifice as I ever made by doubling down and working longer hours.

Trading an income for lifestyle is often more about sacrifice, what you give up to help others, then it is for what you do for yourself.

[Metalcat]

In our early 30s we gave up about 50% of our annual earned income so my wife could raise our daughter. That was a great “lifestyle“ decision that all of us appreciate even decades later.

I know a lot of people just don’t want to work, or work too many hours. Others may say, “she was just a stay at home mom“.  But my wife gave up what was turning out to be a very successful career she had planned for herself including with a masters degree. That is as much of a sacrifice as I ever made by doubling down and working longer hours.

Trading an income for lifestyle is often more about sacrifice, what you give up to help others, then it is for what you do for yourself.

You don't consider her doing what's best for her family as benefitting herself?

[julia]

YES WE DID THIS!
My husband and I were saving 60-70% of our income in the city between our 2 well paying jobs. We got lucky with lower rent, though the area we lived in wasn't great (lots of unemployed, drug addicts). We dreamed of one day owning a little cabin in the woods, and living a slower life. At the beginning of 2020, we realized we were about 6 years away from hitting our FIRE number.
Then corona happened and made us re evaluate our priorities. We passively happened upon the perfect little home on a 7 acre wooded lot up north. In a province where real estate was going bonkers, not only was this VERY affordable, but it was everything we dreamed of eventually owning.
We took a risk and quit our jobs. My husband started his own product rendering business. It has had a slow start but at least he has had one steady client. We now make much less and save anywhere from 0-50% of our income on a monthly basis (it fluctuates). However we are much happier and cannot believe that we actually wanted to wait 6 more years to experience living our dream life in the woods, surrounded by 50 ft tall conifers, bears, deer, and lakes galore.

[julia]

We visited a small mountain community in Feb 2021 and immediately fell in love. We bought a home sight-unseen that ticked all the boxes, then listed our primary residence in the spring.

I would LOVE to see a photo. I'm in love with PNW photos. Do you have an instagram?

[Ron Scott]

In our early 30s we gave up about 50% of our annual earned income so my wife could raise our daughter. That was a great “lifestyle“ decision that all of us appreciate even decades later.

I know a lot of people just don’t want to work, or work too many hours. Others may say, “she was just a stay at home mom“.  But my wife gave up what was turning out to be a very successful career she had planned for herself including with a masters degree. That is as much of a sacrifice as I ever made by doubling down and working longer hours.

Trading an income for lifestyle is often more about sacrifice, what you give up to help others, then it is for what you do for yourself.

You don't consider her doing what's best for her family as benefitting herself?

She was doing well in her career and enjoyed it. She was capable, accomplished and was recognized by others for her accomplishments. She made an impact and found it fulfilling. And she contributed significantly to family finances.

Of course she also was committed to her new daughter and found satisfaction in doing that more or less full time.

So we can say doing what’s best for a family benefits the mother or father, but we both viewed the decision that she stop working at the time as a sacrifice she made. I still look at it that way.

In my personal experience, married couples in general are often at their best when they sacrifice their individual desires for the good of the family. There can be satisfaction in doing what’s best for the family, but none should forget the sacrifice made to get there.