Author Topic: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?  (Read 6526 times)

petesjb

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Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« on: March 05, 2017, 08:36:36 PM »
I'm 51 single with no college degree, have been at my office manager job for 23 years working for an insurance broker.  While he is OCD, he use to be a relatively pleasant person to work for, but now especially over the last couple of years, things have changed and he is not so pleasant to work for anymore, just to opposite in fact. Very much a micro manager, gets worked up over anything and everything no matter how minor and insignificant an issue.  Has very much of a Dr. Jekyl Mr Hyde type personality, even when he is being pleasant, I know it is just a matter of time before he blows up about something.  I have had some very bad confrontations with him over the last year or so.  Which leave me dreaming of quitting or of course, he could fire if if he chose to do so.

I make about $70,000 a year, which isn't a lot of money in the Bay Area,  but unfortunately I know that if I was to leave or get fired,  with my lack of education, I certainly wouldn't get another job making anywhere near what I'm making.  I have close to $500,000 in IRAs most of which is in the stock market and over $300,000 in regular money, but most of which is not in the stock market and hasn't participated in the stock market run up of the last few years.

I own a townhouse that has more then doubled in value since I bought it 6 years ago worth between $450,000 and $500,000. I owe $115,000 with a 20 year loan but, pay extra yearly to essentially make a 15 year loan.  While I'm not penniless, I also know that I'm far from being able to FIRE. But with my unpleasant working environment, I sometimes debate whether I should just tough it out for as long as possible or pull the plug and walk away, knowing I will not be able to get another job making this much or if I would even be able to get another job at at all.

It would a drastic change in my life considering how long I have been at this job and have lived in the Bay (almost 30 yrs) if I chose to move to a lower cost area and bank some of the money that I would make from selling here and possibly buying a condo somewhere else.  I feel trapped between the unpleasant job situation I know and the fear of the unknown if I was to quit and take a chance.

itchyfeet

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2017, 08:53:11 PM »
Wouldn't it make sense to look for another job first, and once you find one then quit.

It's always easier to get a job when you are already employed.

Once unemployed you will not be able to hide that faint smell of desperateness at job interviews, that is a turn off for hirers.

Another Reader

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2017, 08:58:13 PM »
My insurance agent here in Silly Valley was recently looking for a customer service person to interact with customers.  The pay was a lot lower, $45,000.  However, the job only required interaction with customers, no management.  It seems to me that you could get an office manager job in a similar sized agency for significantly more that what this job paid.  You won't know unless you look. Create a Linked In account and let other people you know in insurance and related businesses know that you are looking for an office management job.  Don't quit your current job until you have a firm offer for a new job.  People that are currently employed have a much better chance at finding a new job.

golfreak12

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2017, 09:23:36 PM »
Seems to me you are pretty much FIRE.
You have:
$500,000 IRA
$300,000 Cash
$300,000+ (net equity of condo).
-------------------
$1,000,000.

You can move to a LCOL area and get any job and semi-retire.

gerardc

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2017, 09:50:03 PM »
It would a drastic change in my life considering how long I have been at this job and have lived in the Bay (almost 30 yrs) if I chose to move to a lower cost area and bank some of the money that I would make from selling here and possibly buying a condo somewhere else.  I feel trapped between the unpleasant job situation I know and the fear of the unknown if I was to quit and take a chance.

With that amount of money saved up (invest the rest), I would quit in a heart beat. Just sell your stuff, pack up and move. It's not that drastic (unless you have a family to support?), it should be easy especially if you're not working at the same time.

Tuskalusa

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2017, 10:04:48 PM »
It sounds like your job is pretty terrible. It also sounds like you have a lot of great experience. Maybe start to look for a new job while you have one. Since you're working, and since you have a fantastic savings, you can be selective about what you take. Even if the job paid a bit less, you'd still be fine, and you might just be happier! 

Start looking on the side and see what you find. Great office managers in the Silicon Valley are important. I bet you can find a better situation for sure!

Dee18

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 10:07:24 PM »
An employer might value your experience and work ethic more than a degree.  Check out the job market.  If you like where you live, figure out your actual expenses to stay there.  From the information you have provided, it sounds like you could live on a lower salary and still be fine now, and when you retire.  I know others suggested you sell the home and move, but that is another huge transition. 

Scortius

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 10:41:56 PM »
I think people who have spent over a decade in the Bay Area may have become desensitized to how much not better it is than anywhere else.  Yes, it has some charms that are almost impossible to find elsewhere, but you may be surprised at what you find if you look around.  I would start thinking about what you want to do in retirement and look at communities that allow that kind of lifestyle.  Moving from the Bay Area, I would recommend looking at smaller college towns across the country.  You will find a lot of the same activities and culture for a lot lot less (and much less overpopulation too).

What's your family and friend situation?  Do you have any friends that live in other cities that you'd be interested in?

Regardless, I'd say step one is just checking around for local jobs.  Doesn't hurt to look and you may be surprised at what you find.

FrugalZony

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2017, 10:47:06 PM »
You have so many options!

You can look for another job and may end up with something better.
Don't wait to get fired, don't just quit. Look around, let people know etc..

You can cash out and move to a lower cost of living area.
Don't buy yet. Take your time, look at areas etc.
Maybe reconnect with old friends in other parts of the states or other parts of the world and just take some time to figure things out.

You can work in another area and rent out your place

You can Air BnB your place or take in a roommate if you have the space?

You can start a side hustle that may turn lucrative enough to replace your main job.

All in all you have enough FU money to do whatever you want, if you are careful...

So many options, you are in a great position!


mohawkbrah

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2017, 01:48:56 AM »
all your assets = $1m+

if i was you id sell your home and move to somewhere cheaper and FIRE

Metric Mouse

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2017, 01:55:28 AM »
Retire. Move. Be happy.  Easy.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2017, 02:05:37 AM »
Yes, start looking for another job while you still sit there.

I used to be in a similar position. I didn't graduate on my higher education and therefore don't have the required papers. I was working as a software programmer without any relevant education for that. I thought I had very little chance of changing jobs. How do you explain that you quit your education too early?

It turned out to be no problem. Lots of years with good working experience will make up for it. Make sure you have a good story for why you didn't do/finish a higher education. For example you didn't have the means to go to university and your family situation didn't allow you to take up loans. Whatever, just be prepared for that question. And in your CV, just point out the good points, so that in first instance they won't pay attention to the education part. In my CV I write that I did this study from year x to year y and don't mention that I didn't graduate. I tell that some time during the interview, accompanied by the prepared excuse.

If you would manage to network and find a person who wants to hire you before having seen your CV, that is even better.

You could also try to talk to your employer and be completely open about the fact that he changed through the years. Perhaps he doesn't realize it and could be made aware of it. But as it is difficult to change a person, looking for another job is a good idea anyway.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 06:23:24 AM by Linea_Norway »

ltt

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2017, 04:59:10 AM »
You have over 23 years experience; not having a college degree is not a deal-breaker.  I agree with others; if you want to continue working; then look for another position first.  Heck, you may be able to find a 1/2 or 3/4 time position in the area where you are given your assets.

Or, as mentioned, if you'd be interested in moving, you have that option also.  Please keep us posted on what you decided/decided to do.

Villanelle

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2017, 05:26:52 AM »
I'd probably start job hunting in any area I thought might be  good fit.  But I'd likely also start standing up for myself more at the office.  Getting let go might actually be a great thing.  You'd get unemployment while you job search.  I don't know how unemployment works if you move out of state, but that's something to look in to. 

Even if you aren't at the point you are truly FIRE'd, it seems like you can certainly take some time off, and can afford a lower payign job, or maybe even part time work?  What do you anticipate your FIRE costs being (with and without a paid off house)?  Any guess what they might be in a lower COL city that still interests you?  Knowing your numbers will help you figure out what options are open to you.

GreenSheep

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2017, 09:22:21 AM »
Thanks to this book recommended by someone on this forum, I would say that it sounds like your boss is a Grenade.

https://www.amazon.com/Dealing-People-Stand-Revised-Expanded-ebook/dp/B0085W9K5Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488817304&sr=8-1&keywords=people+you+can%27t+stand

Maybe reading the book will help you deal with him while you decide what to do.

merula

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2017, 10:27:35 AM »
Does your job involve insurance expertise, or is it mostly general office manger-y skills?

If the former, I'd start looking at various insurance jobs. Maybe work towards a designation, if you don't have one; that can go a lot further than a college degree given your experience.

If the latter, same advice minus the designation. I agree with the advice above that a lack of a college degree isn't nearly as big of a deal given your experience.

Or move and retire. Or semi-retire and get "fun" job. Barista, dog-walker, bartender, whatever floats your boat.

Dicey

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2017, 10:51:33 AM »
OMG, when I was 53, we could have been twins! I, too, do not have a four-year degree. I had about the same amount of money then and also had way too much cash, as you do. I've also worn those job situation shoes and damn, they're hard on your health.

My thoughts:
For now, STOP paying extra on your mortgage. Full, hard STOP. Remind yourself that every time rates hike, you're getting free money. I'd even consider recasting it to 30, but only if the rate is comparable to what you have now, which I doubt.

Next, start thinking about what you do have. Make a list. Here are some random-ish thoughts to get your thinking started:

- Mad job skills. You are excellent at what you do, right?

- You appear to have great frugality skills. This is important, especially to small business owners. People who are paid a decent wage and are financially solvent tend not to be embezzlers, which is a very real threat for this type of business. Your integrity is a valuable asset.

- It's damned expensive to get good people in the Bay Area because it's so double damned expensive to live here. You are already here. Huge advantage.

- Feel free to ignore the LCOLA Greek Chorus for now. Home is an important and valuable place. It may be a great solution in the future, but you don't have to accept that "solution" unless/until you are ready to, if ever.

- You've made good fiscal choices, and your overhead is relatively low. You won't have to work a lot longer to reach your FIRE goals.

- With so much experience and specialized knowledge, you have the equivalent of a PhD, sister. Smart companies WILL pay you handsomely for this. The money they will save by buying your skill set vs. hiring a college greenhorn is not at all insignificant.

- Independent Insurance Agencies are probably going to recognize this faster than mega-corps, so cast your net in that direction.*

- Aim for a job that pays as much or more than your current job. $70k seems like a lot to you, but for someone in the Bay Area with your experience, it is not, I assure you.

- Create or even pay for, but do a lot of google-fu first, a resume that focuses on your skills and experience. Don't even mention college. At our age, no one good cares*. YOU care, and I get that completely, but you really need to let go of that particular useless shackle so you can soar.

- If you find a job with only similar pay, ask for an extra week's vacation from the start. Say you have a big trip planned in X months and you'll need extra time off for that planned event. Or  ask for both.

- They never want you more than before they have you, so remember that and negotiate your ass off.

- Since insurance agencies are everywhere, start looking as close to home as possible. If nothing excellent turns up within walking distance, widen your search very selectively. Only seek jobs readily accessible by public transit, preferably <30 minutes door-to-door. Quality of life is vastly more important than a few more dollars with a long commute attached.

- +1 to creating a Linked In account, but only if your current jackass of a boss can't find it. I'm not sure how LI works in that regard.

- Your negotiating power is stronger if you still have a job, it's true. But not if you destroy your health in the meantime.

- You can last a long time on your savings if you need to. Easier to save more later than to regain your health once lost. You have my permission to quit this jackass now if you need to. However, if you re-cast your mortgage before you quit, your money will last a lot longer, making it even easier to take a sabbatical by, say April 1, job or no job. (Not an April Fool's joke.) Call your lender today and at least ask the question. If it doesn't work (you could still accelerate payments later), work out a new bare-bones budget with just your current required payment, not extra.

- The only caveat to the above is healthcare. Don't do anything without securing new coverage of some sort. Protect your health and your nest egg.

In summary, I cannot emphasize enough how little a degree matters with your experience. Feel free to PM me if you need a little more cheering on.

* Two asterisks for the same anecdote. I sold Men's Clothing at Nordstrom for years. (I was working on other goals that required a flexible schedule. The money was okay, but not great. I also owned a Bay Area condo that was "affordable".) The key to success at Nordstrom is developing a great book of personal clientele, and I was pretty damn good at that. Once, in conversation with a regular customer who was an executive with a (sing-song jingle) major insurance company, he stated that if I had a four-year degree, he'd hire me in a NY minute. I gently replied that I'd never even consider working for a company that cared more about that piece of paper than the skills and strengths of the person they were hiring. He got it instantly. He remained a good customer, but thankfully never brought up the job subject again. Eventually, after achieving the desired life goals, I went back to outside sales so I could ratchet up my FIRE savings. I finally got there and you will, too.

letired

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2017, 11:01:44 AM »
As a counterpoint to the 'pack up and leave' folks: It's ok if that doesn't feel like a good option. I'm heavily introverted and don't make close friends particularly easily. I often find that the forums here price a strong social network much lower than I personally would. Any ideas I have about major moves are heavily weighted against the friends and life I have in my current moderately pricey location.

petesjb

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2019, 05:20:39 PM »
Just an update, I'm still in the the same miserable job and unfortunately my boss has only gotten more difficult to deal with. I met with a job counselor yesterday and have now decided to actively look for another job. Although, I definitely have my concerns that after 25 years and at my age, it will be rather difficult to find a viable alternative, but my current job situation has just deteriorated so much that I have no choice but to at least try. I spend almost all my free time thinking about what a difficult and unfortunate situation I'm in, it's affecting my whole life. So I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to try to put and end to the situation.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 05:37:33 PM »
I'm 51 single with no college degree, have been at my office manager job for 23 years working for an insurance broker.  While he is OCD, he use to be a relatively pleasant person to work for, but now especially over the last couple of years, things have changed and he is not so pleasant to work for anymore, just to opposite in fact. Very much a micro manager, gets worked up over anything and everything no matter how minor and insignificant an issue.  Has very much of a Dr. Jekyl Mr Hyde type personality, even when he is being pleasant, I know it is just a matter of time before he blows up about something.  I have had some very bad confrontations with him over the last year or so.  Which leave me dreaming of quitting or of course, he could fire if if he chose to do so.

I make about $70,000 a year, which isn't a lot of money in the Bay Area,  but unfortunately I know that if I was to leave or get fired,  with my lack of education, I certainly wouldn't get another job making anywhere near what I'm making.  I have close to $500,000 in IRAs most of which is in the stock market and over $300,000 in regular money, but most of which is not in the stock market and hasn't participated in the stock market run up of the last few years.

I own a townhouse that has more then doubled in value since I bought it 6 years ago worth between $450,000 and $500,000. I owe $115,000 with a 20 year loan but, pay extra yearly to essentially make a 15 year loan.  While I'm not penniless, I also know that I'm far from being able to FIRE. But with my unpleasant working environment, I sometimes debate whether I should just tough it out for as long as possible or pull the plug and walk away, knowing I will not be able to get another job making this much or if I would even be able to get another job at at all.

It would a drastic change in my life considering how long I have been at this job and have lived in the Bay (almost 30 yrs) if I chose to move to a lower cost area and bank some of the money that I would make from selling here and possibly buying a condo somewhere else.  I feel trapped between the unpleasant job situation I know and the fear of the unknown if I was to quit and take a chance.

1. You are  single.

2. Your assets are valued at $500K + $300K + $450-$500K.

3. Your debt is relatively low @ only $115K.

You can sell your townhouse, pay off your debt, and have plenty of $$$FIRE$$$ left over, in fact >$1000,000.

If I were you I'd quit tomorrow and  put the townhouse on the market.

As soon as it's sold I'd  move to a rural, LCOL county.

I'd rent for a while to get a feel for what it's like to live there.

If I  liked living there  I'd buy a house on 5 or more acres and stay there.

In my opinion you have reached FIREtirement.

Kudos!


« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 05:59:31 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Dicey

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 12:34:46 AM »
I still like what I wrote to you over two years ago. Did you consider any of my suggestions?

Another Reader

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 08:26:18 AM »
I still like what I wrote to you over two years ago. Did you consider any of my suggestions?

Ditto for what I wrote.  You have choices.  Time to exercise them.

Rock Solid

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2019, 06:06:10 PM »
Just an update, I'm still in the the same miserable job and unfortunately my boss has only gotten more difficult to deal with. I met with a job counselor yesterday and have now decided to actively look for another job. Although, I definitely have my concerns that after 25 years and at my age, it will be rather difficult to find a viable alternative, but my current job situation has just deteriorated so much that I have no choice but to at least try. I spend almost all my free time thinking about what a difficult and unfortunate situation I'm in, it's affecting my whole life. So I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to try to put and end to the situation.

I did this and found that the grass is always greener over the septic tank. I'm not bragging, just saying.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2019, 06:26:57 AM »
Also consider a new job that is not fulltime. Your can afford to not work fulltime. (if you can't mentally take the step to retire yet).

Dicey

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2019, 06:50:00 AM »
Just an update, I'm still in the the same miserable job and unfortunately my boss has only gotten more difficult to deal with. I met with a job counselor yesterday and have now decided to actively look for another job. Although, I definitely have my concerns that after 25 years and at my age, it will be rather difficult to find a viable alternative, but my current job situation has just deteriorated so much that I have no choice but to at least try. I spend almost all my free time thinking about what a difficult and unfortunate situation I'm in, it's affecting my whole life. So I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to try to put and end to the situation.

I did this and found that the grass is always greener over the septic tank. I'm not bragging, just saying.
Nice to hear from you, Erma!

former player

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2019, 07:06:51 AM »
You may not have FIRE money but you do have FU money and you may even have Barista FIRE money - the ability to manage on a lower income in return for a better and healthier lifestyle.  Please congratulate your past self on the wise actions which have given you that room for manoeuvre.

The problem with working full time in a toxic workplace is that it becomes very difficult to see through the thick pollution that it spreads over the whole of your life.  If you can, take some time away from work (holiday time? sick leave?): it will give you a bit of the time and space and energy you need to look clearly at your options.   I think Dicey in her earlier advice laid those options out for you pretty clearly.

Finally, I do wish people would think a little before repeatedly suggesting that a single guy of a certain age living in San Francisco would be better off selling his cheap-enough home in order to move to some low cost of living rural area.  Yes, it's one option, but whether its the best option may be highly debateable.

Chrissy

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2019, 07:38:54 AM »
@petesjb Since it's been two years, would you give us an update on your assets?

YK-Phil

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2019, 10:20:10 AM »
Single, no kids, early 50s, over $1M in assets, and unhappy at work. In your shoes, it would be a no-brainer, I'd sell the house first, quit your job almost simultaneously, then move to a LCOL area in the US or abroad.

Another Reader

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2019, 11:08:55 AM »
Just an update, I'm still in the the same miserable job and unfortunately my boss has only gotten more difficult to deal with. I met with a job counselor yesterday and have now decided to actively look for another job. Although, I definitely have my concerns that after 25 years and at my age, it will be rather difficult to find a viable alternative, but my current job situation has just deteriorated so much that I have no choice but to at least try. I spend almost all my free time thinking about what a difficult and unfortunate situation I'm in, it's affecting my whole life. So I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to try to put and end to the situation.

I did this and found that the grass is always greener over the septic tank. I'm not bragging, just saying.
Nice to hear from you, Erma!
Not many people here that will get that reference...

Dogastrophe

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2019, 12:51:06 PM »
You gave it another 2 years and things have only got worse.  Life is too short to work for a toxic boss.  As others have stated, you may not have FIRE money but you certainly have FU money.   

With your level of experience, any employer who would value a degree / diploma and a couple years work experience over no degree + 25 years experience isn't one you would want to work for anyways.  Start a job search today (look at a variety of titles when searching - my experience with well rounded Office Managers is they have a lot of transferable skills that lend themselves to many different industries & positions).  It may take you a few months to land something comparable but something will come along.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:10:42 PM by Dogastrophe »

Dicey

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Re: Leave my job or tough it out for as long as possible?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2019, 03:01:55 PM »
Just an update, I'm still in the the same miserable job and unfortunately my boss has only gotten more difficult to deal with. I met with a job counselor yesterday and have now decided to actively look for another job. Although, I definitely have my concerns that after 25 years and at my age, it will be rather difficult to find a viable alternative, but my current job situation has just deteriorated so much that I have no choice but to at least try. I spend almost all my free time thinking about what a difficult and unfortunate situation I'm in, it's affecting my whole life. So I have come to the conclusion that I have no choice but to try to put and end to the situation.

I did this and found that the grass is always greener over the septic tank. I'm not bragging, just saying.
Nice to hear from you, Erma!
Not many people here that will get that reference...
Yes that's true, but the person who wrote it will.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!