Author Topic: Layoff  (Read 4052 times)

Stash Man

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Layoff
« on: January 11, 2024, 11:16:08 PM »
A friend was recently “downsized” by big tech. Before signing the severance agreement to receive the package she’d like to know if the community has any advice. Are these things negotiable and is it a good idea to consult a lawyer to make sure my friend is not getting short changed?

Thanks a lot!

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2024, 04:29:29 AM »
A friend was recently “downsized” by big tech. Before signing the severance agreement to receive the package she’d like to know if the community has any advice. Are these things negotiable and is it a good idea to consult a lawyer to make sure my friend is not getting short changed?

Thanks a lot!

“In business as in life, you don't get what you deserve you get what you negotiate.”

vand

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2024, 05:16:26 AM »
Good luck, but not sure if friend is going to get much out of getting a lawyer involved unless they feel there is a case for unfair dismissal. Layoffs happen all the time - take the package on offer and move on.  BigTech probably has inhouse council that knows how to lay people off quickly, effectively, and legally.

edin

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2024, 05:52:44 AM »
Depends where he lives, here in europe you can to contact your trade union if you are part of it and discuss the negotiation. You can also negotiate directly with the employer and change whatever you want(severance, equipment, garden leave etc…) on the agreement, even if they said that the negotiation is closed.

slappy

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2024, 06:07:12 AM »
Have her read everything thoroughly and then maybe post if there are specific questions? I can't imagine it would be worth getting a lawyer involved, unless there is some drama.

RWTL

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2024, 07:14:08 AM »
I've only been on the employer side of layoffs.  In those cases, unless you brought something unique to the organization, I don't think they will offer a lot of flexibility.  If you have specific knowledge or skills that could benefit them, they might negotiate based on something that you can offer as well (e.g. more time or consulting after)

Honestly, I hated it and thankfully it didn't happen often in my industry.  My goal was to make things as easy as possible for those affected - so I would welcome a deal if it made sense to me.  If someone told me a one sided position (I need more severance), that would be hard to impossible to get approved.

reeshau

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2024, 07:33:46 AM »
If your friend is part of hundreds or thousands of people laid off, there probably isn't much negotiation room; unless, as said above, they had a very unique skillset or role.  The severance is usually something above the legally required minimum amount, in exchange for releasing the company from liability for things like age discrimination.  Does your friend feel like they or the laid off group has been discriminated against?  Do they care about it enough to forego whatever is being offered, in exchange for a multi-year legal fight?  If not, then It's likely a situation of sign it, and move on.

jinga nation

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2024, 07:46:12 AM »
Is there any clause in the severance agreement preventing her from working for a competitor or another company in the same/similar sector or in the geographical area?
Check for anything that could affect future work and income. Have a lawyer give it a look, worth the money for a sanity check.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2024, 07:55:47 AM »
Good friend of mine was in a very hostile workplace and it seemed like on random Fridays people were just leaving.

He was put on a PIP (after 7 years!) despite there being no original document to reference his deficiencies.

In the end, he offered to resign if there was a severance. The hostile manager was fucking thrilled, and my friend said he was okay with the deal and took a few months off.

Morning Glory

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2024, 08:30:54 AM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

vand

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2024, 10:51:13 AM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

Google has very publicly had another round of layoffs. It's unlikely they're the only ones.  The job market is nowhere near as strong as the headline numbers would have you believe.

We have mounting evidence from private recruitment firms that hiring has slowed drastically
https://inews.co.uk/news/business/hays-recruitment-jobs-cut-profits-warning-2844289
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 10:52:53 AM by vand »

lucenzo11

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2024, 02:02:48 PM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

From what I've read, there's been a lot of rebalancing of priorities at companies recently. Some of it's shifting focus to more AI, some is just refocusing on which projects seem best moving forward. Doesn't seem like the big layoffs we saw in 2022/2023 yet, but something to keep an eye on.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2024, 02:09:34 PM »
I would keep in mind severance payments are not for you, they are to relieve concerns among the people left behind who were not laid off. If they think the company will take care of them in the event of layoffs, then they might be less likely to jump ship at the next sign of trouble.

iris lily

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2024, 02:33:09 PM »
Good friend of mine was in a very hostile workplace and it seemed like on random Fridays people were just leaving.

He was put on a PIP (after 7 years!) despite there being no original document to reference his deficiencies.

In the end, he offered to resign if there was a severance. The hostile manager was fucking thrilled, and my friend said he was okay with the deal and took a few months off.

One of my friends, a tenured professor, was moved to unimportant and unsatisfying classroom assignments because he didnt play the academic game that was part of a new regime.

Being near retirement age but needing $$$ for health insurance until he could get Medicare, he offered to resign if they would pay health insurance. They were happy with the offer because his health insurance costs were much smaller than his big salary. All parties were happy woth this arrangement.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2024, 07:54:34 AM »
Good friend of mine was in a very hostile workplace and it seemed like on random Fridays people were just leaving.

He was put on a PIP (after 7 years!) despite there being no original document to reference his deficiencies.

In the end, he offered to resign if there was a severance. The hostile manager was fucking thrilled, and my friend said he was okay with the deal and took a few months off.

One of my friends, a tenured professor, was moved to unimportant and unsatisfying classroom assignments because he didnt play the academic game that was part of a new regime.

Being near retirement age but needing $$$ for health insurance until he could get Medicare, he offered to resign if they would pay health insurance. They were happy with the offer because his health insurance costs were much smaller than his big salary. All parties were happy woth this arrangement.

Hopefully he's picking up a class or two elsewhere that he enjoys.

NorthernFire

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2024, 12:36:32 PM »
I was downsized this summer. Read the agreement carefully and if it looks good sign it and move on. I did.
I also have a friend who was offered 2 weeks severance with a lot of stipulations. He refused to sign and moved on with life. 

BlueMR2

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2024, 10:08:25 AM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

Seems like industry wide.  I've got several friends that were recently let go and my the company I'm at just announced another round of layoffs.  However, they also announced another round of hiring, looks like we're shedding people from some areas so we can shift into others...  The companies my friends are at though they are dropping Senior level people and keeping juniors, so looks like a cost saving measure.

chasesfish

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2024, 10:18:20 AM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

There's no longer a near unlimited supply of free money.   The Big Techs have to kill projects that can't meet at certain ROI within a timeframe.   Smaller tech companies are getting pressure from their investors to (finally) start producing cash flow and delivering returns.

It's one thing to invest in a VC fund or smaller tech company for an asymetric return when the alternative is a risk free rate of nearly zero.  The risk free rate is now 4-5%, capital requires something more certain than a 1 in 20 shot at delivering a return. 

We're going to see that much of the overemployment in technology was a consequence of near zero interest rates.

Anon-E-Mouze

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2024, 03:09:05 PM »
A few things to check (some mentioned in earlier posts but I'll try to consolidate):

1. Scope of any non-compete or non-solicitation clauses. Ideally, there will be no non-compete clause in a layoff. Non-solicitation clauses are more reasonable. They could try striking out the non-compete (or narrowing its duration or geographic scope). Google non-compete agreements in an employment setting for the friend's particular state. There have been some very recent changes in the law in some states that either make the clauses illegal altogether or significantly narrow their scope. Company agreements haven't necessarily caught up with the law.

2. In a larger layoff at (as opposed to a very targeted set of dismissals) at a company with proper HR and legal departments, there's usually very little scope to negotiate. Often, the company will have established standard bands for the financial terms in the layoff, e.g. employees within a certain salary range (or seniority range), sometimes combined with length of time at the company, will get the same package (e.g. 10 weeks, 20 weeks, 30 weeks), combined with continuation of benefits and similar treatment of stock options, stock appreciation rights etc (e.g. that they can be exercised during the severance period, or that they can't). These ranges are often well-known among employees when layoffs start to happen. Your friend could ask around to see if anyone can share information about those ranges and ensure that they're getting comparable treatment if they meet the same criteria. Occasionally, a company will try to short-change certain employees because perceived performance issues (whether accurate or inaccurate). If for some reason, your friend appears to be getting shortchanged relative to their peers, that can be worth pushing back on. However, if their package is line with other packages for their peers, there's probably no room to manoevre.

3. A lawyer could be worthwhile if:

A) Your friend is being significantly shortchanged relative to people who make about the same salary and have similar tenure (e.g. they're getting 10 weeks severance and everyone else is getting 20 or 30). But the lawyer likely will work on a contingency basis and seek a percentage (e.g. 30%) of any supplementary amount recovered. And the company may dig in its heels and not change its offer. So your friend could end up going months and months without seeing any payment. It might be a better deal to just take the money.

B) It appears that everyone, or a significant group that includes your friend, is not getting an offer package that meets industry norms or legal requirements. In some jurisdictions, there are employment laws that set a minimum number of weeks' severance for terminations below a certain number of employees (e.g. < 50), and b) set higher thresholds and additional protections when the company lays off a larger number of employees. Beyond that, in some jurisdictions (e.g. in Canada), the common law has established higher levels of protection beyond the statutory minimum. For example, the statute might say that employees are entitled to 1 week of severance (or pay in lieu of severance) for each year employed, but case law has established that a 50 year-old manager earning $200,000 a year is entitled to a year's severance or pay in lieu of severance. You can Google to find out what kind of standards (statute plus case law) apply in your jurisdiction without going to a lawyer. But if it looks like the company is significantly lowballing everyone, or a group, then it can be worth it to a lawyer. (A lawyer might also be more interested in taking the case if there's a group, because they'll earn more for not much more extra effort).

C) If your friend belongs to a protected group (e.g. by virtue of their race, origin, gender, sexual orientation, or age), and it appears that they have been lowballed compared to people in an unprotected group, then that could also be a good case to bring to a lawyer. It's relatively unusual for companies to discriminate in scenarios like this on the basis of race, origin or gender, but it's NOT unusual at all for layoffs to hit older workers (who often are more expensive) and women who have taken maternity leave off. If your friend belongs to a protected group, it's worth checking with other members of the group, to see if there is any pattern in terms of lowball offers.

4. The contract likely will have a non-disparagement clause and also some kind of NDA (non-disclosure agreement). The NDA can get in the way of talking to other employees - be discreet. Likewise, the non-disparagement clause can provide a company with grounds not to pay out, so your friend should avoid taking to social media to complain about what's happened.

5.  You can find out a lot by going to the website of law firms that have an employment law practice. Try to find ones that are local (or at least within your state) and check to see what kinds of articles they've written about layoffs. Have a look at the LinkedIn pages of the key lawyers practising employment law to see what they're posting.

jinga nation

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2024, 04:19:54 PM »
Is it just me or have there been a lot of posts about tech layoffs in the last few weeks? Something industry-wide going on or just the usual age discrimination and outsourcing?

From what I've read, there's been a lot of rebalancing of priorities at companies recently. Some of it's shifting focus to more AI, some is just refocusing on which projects seem best moving forward. Doesn't seem like the big layoffs we saw in 2022/2023 yet, but something to keep an eye on.

Companies also over-hired during COVID-19. Time to get rid of the excess dead-weight due to AI/ML and non-AI reasons like not performing to standards. Here's Google:


Bartlebooth

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2024, 07:08:03 PM »
Is there a MiniMSFT of Google?

GilesMM

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2024, 08:42:06 PM »
If it is a non compete and confidentiality clause and your friend has particularly valuable inside knowledge, they could ask for extra compensation to keep it confidential. Never hurts to ask.

iris lily

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2024, 02:13:32 PM »
Good friend of mine was in a very hostile workplace and it seemed like on random Fridays people were just leaving.

He was put on a PIP (after 7 years!) despite there being no original document to reference his deficiencies.

In the end, he offered to resign if there was a severance. The hostile manager was fucking thrilled, and my friend said he was okay with the deal and took a few months off.

One of my friends, a tenured professor, was moved to unimportant and unsatisfying classroom assignments because he didnt play the academic game that was part of a new regime.

Being near retirement age but needing $$$ for health insurance until he could get Medicare, he offered to resign if they would pay health insurance. They were happy with the offer because his health insurance costs were much smaller than his big salary. All parties were happy woth this arrangement.

Hopefully he's picking up a class or two elsewhere that he enjoys.

Oh no, he retired and is DONE with work.

Siebrie

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Re: Layoff
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2024, 02:24:42 AM »
Depends where he lives, here in europe you can to contact your trade union if you are part of it and discuss the negotiation. You can also negotiate directly with the employer and change whatever you want(severance, equipment, garden leave etc…) on the agreement, even if they said that the negotiation is closed.

In Belgium the union will even help you if you're not a member! Not on negotiations, but on general advice.
Based on their advice, I negotiated that the legal mandatory 'outplacement training' (worth €2,000) did not come out of my severance pay, but was of a better value and came on top of the severance pay (€4,000).