Lawyers here, regrets/advice on the career path

[EAL]

I have for many years considered attending or at least applying to law school and seeing if I have a chance.  I have a Master's Degree in History and have worked as a probation agent for 2 years.  I have been leaning more heavily that direction lately.  I thought about studying for and taking the LSAT to see where my chances lie.  I know I can work my ass of through school, I've just always struggled with tests so I know I'd require a lot of preparation.  I also fear giving up 3 years of a reliable salary to attend. I am just worried about making such a big commitment, I want to make sure I'm sure. 

Those of you who chose to become attorneys, are you happy? What helped you make your decision? Did you have doubts initially?

[ender]

You seem to have left out the most important part.... why do you actually want to be a lawyer?

[EAL]

You seem to have left out the most important part.... why do you actually want to be a lawyer?

I first considered a career as an attorney when doing research for my master's thesis. I wrote about Mexican American civil rights and military service after World War II.  I realized most of the effective people in their civil rights movement were attorney's and that having a legal basis of knowledge and that accreditation may be the best way to further drive forward that which I believed in.

A few years later, I started to work as a juvenile probation agent.  I live in an area with many Hispanic families and by default become the office translator. I often translate for meetings for probation, attorney's and the department of family services.  I see many families struggle with the system due to the language barrier and have a lack of representation and communication with their attorneys. I have also seen the discrepancies in representation of poorer families as opposed to wealthier families who can afford to retain an attorney. 

I also took a legal business class and it quickly became my favorite course. I loved learning about all of the laws. I often get frustrated in my job feeling I don't have the adequate legal knowledge that I would love to have. I often get frustrated dealing with attorneys wondering if I have an inaccurate knowledge or if what they are doing  is truly just lazy/unethical.  I thirst to have that knowledge. 

Also, I am really interested in business and finance. I have studied various economic, accounting, and business courses.  For a long time I thought I had to decide between the two. I then began to think of the attorney's I often work with in private practice. Most attorney's practice/specialize in a few different areas of law.  I realized I could do both traditional representation and I could also do estate planning/wills/tax law etc. 

[Tabaxus]

Distilled, your post reads as a classic "I don't know what I want to do with my life, so how about law school"/love of learning/think the law is "interesting" type of mentality.  That is normally a nightmare on wheels waiting to happen.

Being a lawyer is ordinarily not that interesting, and it is certainly nothing like law school (or the other classes you mentioned).  Legions of people enjoy law school but hate being attorneys.

Most lawyers don't do anything related to civil rights work (quite to the contrary, actually).  Those who do get very meager paychecks.  Private practice is rough--lots of competition, lots of used car salesman-level scrounging for work, lots of difficulty with collection, and for the vast majority of people, not great money.  The lucrative biglaw jobs are difficult to get and, if you get one, absolutely grinding (50 or so billable hours per week, at a minimum, higher a large percentage of time, and there is a lot of non-billable time at the office).  And, of course, student loans are horrifying (unless you get into one of the top 10 schools, paying full freight is insane; even if you get into those top schools, then you're basically more likely to get that grinding biglaw job to pay off your loans).

All of that said, there are certainly worse careers. But that's coming from someone who landed in one of the "gentler" practice groups in the biglaw track and, in any event, basically had no other options (I was a fine arts undergrad).  Lots of burnout, and I think very few people would honestly say that they truly love being lawyers.  About the best I've ever seen is people who legitimately don't hate it most of the time (just like many other careers).  Those people are the exception, not the rule, in most practice groups.

[LouLou]

I've just always struggled with tests so I know I'd require a lot of preparation.

This is a major problem.  Getting a scholarship to a good law school requires a high score on the LSAT.  (Do NOT go without a large scholarship and do not go to a lower ranked law school).  Your first year grades will be determined almost entirely by your finals -  a single test at the end of semester for each class.  These grades are the main criteria for firms that pay six figures.  Then, you need to pass the bar exam, a monster of a test.  If you struggle with tests, this will make you miserable and likely less employable than you are now.

If you are attracted to the social justice aspect of the law, find another career path to help the same population.  I have many friends who are very passionate about public interest issues and went to law school for that purpose.  None of them have jobs in the public interest fields that they wanted.  Some are working at lower-paying private firms because public interest law jobs are very competitive.  And I went to a highly ranked law school.

Finally, I believe in the last few years only 60% of law school graduates obtained full-time jobs that required a law degree.  Those are not good odds.

If you are still interested after accepting all the above, I would recommend working at a law firm in some capacity or meeting with lots of lawyers to see if you want the work that lawyers actually do.  Also, take the LSAT and see if you score really, really well.  Then apply to law schools and see if any of them give you a big fat scholarship.  If you get the great test score and the big scholarship, then law away!

[SeanMC]

I would recommend reading this flowchart:

https://lawschooltuitionbubble.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/browning-dgtlsu-flow-chart-2-0.png

It's a more concise summary of the content of Don't Go to Law School (Unless): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1480163686/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1480163686&linkCode=as2&tag=dealbreaker-20

[TVRodriguez]

https://youtu.be/nMvARy0lBLE

Watch from about 1:29 - 1:46.  Oh, watch the whole thing.  It's a classic.

Not to be harsh, but that word you want is "attorneys," not "attorney's."  One time I would have figured was a typo, but with more than one I'm not sure.  Good writing is important.  And yes, test-taking ability is important. As LouLou pointed out, you are graded on a single exam for most courses. That's after a single exam, the LSAT, decides whether you get into any law school at all. And it's capped off by a single exam, the bar, stretched over 2 or 3 days.

I'm not trying to discourage you. Personally, I went to law school because I decided against med school, against teaching, and I couldn't bring myself to write a cover letter to send in with my resume for any job I found remotely interesting. Oh, and I took a Women and the Law class in college and loved "the stories." Horrible reasons, honestly. And it all worked out for me. So no regrets here.  But that was all before the legal market tanked.

I actually like being a lawyer.  I'm good at it, and I make a decent living, though I could have done other things.  I know several lawyers who hate being lawyers, and I know many who enjoy it.  Most who enjoy it are past the worst of the early years.  I like it a lot more 17 years out, running my own practice, than I did as a young associate hamster-on-a-wheel with imposter syndrome, counting every six minutes of my life.  Working at some firms can drive you to therapy. Or to drink. I chose therapy. (That is the right choice, btw.)

Despite my low personal overhead compared to other lawyers I know, I don't take a lot of pro bono work in my solo practice or do lots for the indigent because, quite frankly, I prefer to have the time for my family and myself. Some classmates of mine went into public service from my second tier school, so it can happen, but it was rare.  I do admire them.

Wish I had better advice.  Good luck to you in whatever path you choose.

[Capsu78]

Despite my fathers gentle guidance in steering my toward law school, at the end of my undergrad I was very, very tired of the academic grind and didn't have top tier grades.  Ended up in a company that allowed for me to have a number of careers- production management, sales, marketing etc.  15 years in I suddenly find myself involved in a product sold heavily to the legal industry.  Did conferences and events from Seattle to Miami, interacting with lawyers and legal administrators from many states.  (As a side note I was able to collect a massive list of lawyer jokes as a non financial job perk)
Find myself on a barstool one night with a "prospect" -a lawyer, who started asking me what I do.  I start with "Well my dad hoped I would go into law but I ended up here doing... and I rolled out tasks and my travel schedule.  He said "Man, I wish someone would have steered me clear of the law... I have never felt so trapped in my life.  My credentials don't extend beyond the state line and even if I found a better place in state, I would have to rebuild my practice from scratch.  I am bored of the legal issues I get involved in and don't really care for the clients I have to deal with every day... Don't get me wrong, I give them my full attention but they are not the folks I would want to socialize with."
That always stuck with me that he thought my "job description" sounded better than his.  So the lesson here is if you want to pursue the law, make certain you are "rooting" in a place you will always like.   I know there are Big Law   associates who move about the country and world as "trusted advisors" but the bulk seem to work in a uber competitive fish tank with some not so friendly tank mates. 

You might want to bingewatch some "The Good Wife" episodes and them follow up with "Better call Saul" and decide for yourself which one is closer to "TV Fiction" and which one is closer to "Documentary".

[dude]

Lots of good advice here.  The legal field has changed dramatically since I graduated in 1997.  The old profession/partnership track model is long gone, and it's more akin to the managed care/corporate world of the health care field these days.  Of the dozen or so fellow grads and friends from law school who I still keep in daily contact with, 4 have left the practice of law altogether (1 is a hedge fund analyst, one in private equity, one is a mid-level manager at a Fortune 500 tech co., one is a business consultant); one was a junior partner who was let go and endured a 16-month period of unemployment before landing an in-house gig with a small company halfway across the country; another is a GC for a major corp; three have opened their own firms (1 an ambulance chaser, the other 2 criminal defense); two others are partners at large firms; one does insurance defense.  I would say only the criminal defense guys really seem to like what they do, with the ambulance chaser close behind.  The rest?  It's a living.  I personally don't hate my job, per se, but I do not enjoy or really like the practice of law.  It pretty much sucks.  But I don't want to sound ungrateful, because it's given me a very good life.  But the Class of '97 (from a top-tier law school) faced far, far rosier prospects than current (and future) law grads. Law school enrollment has plummeted the last few years, as people have begun to question the cost-benefit ratio of a legal education.  Think VERY HARD before committing yourself to taking on a mountain of student loan debt.

As for the LSAT, practice can aid significantly in scoring high on this test.  I've always been a good test taker, but the first time I took an LSAT practice test, I scored in the 80th percentile -- that's not gonna get it done for a top-tier law school.  But with a Kaplan prep course (for which I shelled out the last $700 I had to my name; this was in 1993), and lots of time studying and taking old LSATs (there is a method to attacking the logic games section), I ended up scoring in the 95th percentile, which changed everything for me.  As others have said, DO NOT shell out first-tier money for a second-rate law school -- the odds are very much against you coming out on the winning end of that proposition.  If you can't get into a top-tier school, I'd suggest thinking about another line of work.

[onlykelsey]

I'm a 29 year old entering my fifth year of practice in transactional BigLaw, for what that's worth.  I also have a MA in an unrelated history-esque field (unique enough that it would out me).

This does not sound like a good plan to me, based on what you describe.  If you get a full ride to a T20, it may be worth considering.  But given your test anxiety, that may not be in the books for you.  Thankfully law schools have pretty low standards right now, so there's probably not much harm in spending 500 and taking the LSAT, so long as you can let go of the idea if it doesn't work out.

[Capsu78]

Dude, In 1999 I saw Tom Peters speak (hey, yet another perk from my then job!) and the basis of his talk was centered around the rapid velocity change that was coming down the pike where even firmly entrenched occupations such as accounting, HR and legal were going to be impacted and down sized the same as the "guys on the production floor".  Flash forward 7 years and I met an HR VP who started with several hundred reports worldwide to about 70, to about 15 and finally had to fill out his own exit papers because there was no one left!

I also remember the story of the 80 hour a week law firm associate on the partners track who came home one night to find his 5 year old had drawn a picture at school of her family to put on the fridge, and he realized he was not in it.

[dude]

Dude, In 1999 I saw Tom Peters speak (hey, yet another perk from my then job!) and the basis of his talk was centered around the rapid velocity change that was coming down the pike where even firmly entrenched occupations such as accounting, HR and legal were going to be impacted and down sized the same as the "guys on the production floor".  Flash forward 7 years and I met an HR VP who started with several hundred reports worldwide to about 70, to about 15 and finally had to fill out his own exit papers because there was no one left!

I also remember the story of the 80 hour a week law firm associate on the partners track who came home one night to find his 5 year old had drawn a picture at school of her family to put on the fridge, and he realized he was not in it.

Ouch.  I recall having to read a book in law school that also foreshadowed the coming changes to the profession.  Didn't think much of it then, but the book nailed it.  For me personally, going to work for the Federal government was the best possible compromise for me.  I worked at a BigLaw firm 2nd year summer -- and hated pretty much every minute of it.

[kewper]

Many people go to law school because they don't know what else to do.  I went to a T10 law school and graduated with over 150K in debt.  I still have 30K in debt after 4 years out and I worked in BigLaw until recently and made 160-190K in NYC.  I paid off debt aggressively after a year of fooling around but was not as frugal as I am now and COL was somewhat high even though my husband and I were never extravagant (e.g., we paid 1700 in rent in manhattan).  I now have high earning potential but I would not take on this debt again.  It's not 3 years of lost wages, it's more like 8 in the best case scenario because your first years out will be repaying debt.  There are some scholarships, etc., if you are lucky.

edited for typo.

[NYCAtty]

You have received a lot of good advice already. I would just echo the suggestions to speak with attorneys who work in the areas you are interested in and really consider whether you want to give up three years of earning potential in school and then spend a few more years paying off your loans. It can be very hard to get the kind of civil rights jobs you are seeking and hanging out your own shingle is a big risk and will entail lots of hustling.

I am a senior associate in NYC biglaw, and I do enjoy my job. The work is interesting and my colleagues are great. But it took me several years to pay off six figures of debt, the hours can be very long, and in reality, the exit options fall short of the promises that you can do "anything" with a law degree.

If I was in your shoes, I would look for paralegal-type jobs in civil rights orgs, legal aid offices, or small firms doing the trusts/estate work you like. You'll get experience in the kinds of work you're seeking and see for yourself if practicing law is really for you.

[LeRainDrop]

And yes, test-taking ability is important. As LouLou pointed out, you are graded on a single exam for most courses. That's after a single exam, the LSAT, decides whether you get into any law school at all. And it's capped off by a single exam, the bar, stretched over 2 or 3 days.

Agreed that tests are extremely important for getting into law school, doing well at law school, getting your summer and first post-school jobs, and getting licensed to practice.  Unlike with the SATs, where if you take them multiple times then colleges accept your highest scores, law schools look at the average of all your LSAT scores.  This makes it all the more critical that you score very well the first time you take the test -- best advice for a nervous test-taker is to do lots of practice questions and take lots of practice tests to prepare until you are at the top of your game.  It's also intimidating, but unfortunately true, that your entire grade in most courses is based off the single final exam.  Finally, the bar exam is not a fun endeavor -- everyone is guaranteed to get lots of questions wrong, including the many people who pass.  It's common to be left with uneasy feelings for months while you wait for your results, wondering whether you did well enough to pass.  And if you don't pass the first time, your odds of passing statistically go down with each attempt.

[obstinate]

If you can't get into a top seven school, there's no point in going. Even then, it's quite the gamble. http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

The information about how bad of a career and financial choice this is is widely available. If you go forward with this decision, it's your neck.

[obstinate]

Also: asking for input from lawyers is begging to be victim of selection bias.

[Tabaxus]

Also: asking for input from lawyers is begging to be victim of selection bias.

Not really.  Has a single post here actively encouraged this person to go, given what they said about their circumstances?

Also, top 7 or bust?  Without any consideration of scholarships etc.?  Seriously?  That's a little extreme.

[EXLIer]

Many people go to law school because they don't know what else to do.  I went to a T10 law school and graduated with over 150K in debt.  I still have 30K in debt after 4 years out and I worked in BigLaw until recently and made 160-190K in NYC.  I paid off debt aggressively after a year of fooling around but was not as frugal as I am now and COL was somewhat high even though my husband and I were never extravagant (e.g., we paid 1700 in rent in manhattan).  I now have high earning potential but I would not take on this debt again.  It's not 3 years of lost wages, it's more like 8 in the best case scenario because your first years out will be repaying debt.  There are some scholarships, etc., if you are lucky.

edited for typo.

I almost thought you were my wife posting, as this is literally exactly her story.  Graduated top of her class from a T10.  Worked in the largest firm I believe in the country.  I think she was making $180K by the time she was 26.  ABSOLUTELY HATED IT.

She was salivating at the opportunity to leave the legal field.  We moved away from the southeast out west here, and actually started her own firm, which she hated too.

Eventually got into a quasi management position where she manages an entity with 1500+ employees and a $150mil budget.  Loves it.

Anyone that asks her for her opinion of getting into the law field, she'll ask "What are you thinking?!?".  She encourages people to explore other fields unless they absolutely have a burning desire to practice law.

[totoro]

I guess I will be the contrarian here. Canadian lawyer here.

First, law is a business.  You need to be aware of the horror stories but if you understand how the business works and how to succeed in a changing profession you can do very well. First, the hourly charge out rate is high enough that it can be extremely profitable and because you have to be called to practice your competition is reduced.

I love my job. I own my own practice in a social justice area and worked part time from home for seven years.  Now that my kids are older I'm full time and expanding.  There are many good niche markets and new ways to practice using technology.  You are not stuck with big law or being overworked.  Look at things differently.

I would go to law school again in a heartbeat.  I would spend time first researching and developing a career and business plan first though by talking to successful big law and small firm owners.  If you are not an entrepreneur then consider the positions you would like.

As a caveat I would carefully consider debt.  The US law school fees seem remarkably high, although salaries are higher.  Debt and loss of income during schooling should be carefully considered and weighed against career prospects and lifestyle goals. 

[obstinate]

Also: asking for input from lawyers is begging to be victim of selection bias.

Not really.  Has a single post here actively encouraged this person to go, given what they said about their circumstances?

Even if the result didn't come out positive in this particular thread, it's still true that asking for members of one possible outcome of a decision for advice about that decision is asking for selection bias. There's also an issue of temporal selection where most users did not go to law school in the recent time period, but the employment prospects of new lawyers have shifted substantially.

[SeanMC]

I posted above suggesting that the OP take a very hard look at the advice/odds provided before making this decision.

Commenting now to add: While it is a terrible time to go to law school in the United States (in general), it is a great time to get a free/subsidized ride IF you are someone desirable to top law schools. It is also possible to find a non-elite school with a part-time program that will give you a scholarship to go for free, while you work full-time (good plan if you are willing to drop out if your grades are not good enough to maintain the $).

That still doesn't make it worthwhile if you are not sure about exactly what career in law you are pursuing. But that's the starting point.

It is very cheap to take a few practice LSATs at home under timed conditions to see if you are someone who has a chance at getting scholarship money.

I am happy I went to law school. I loved being in law school, and I liked the jobs that I got when I graduated that were exceedingly rare at the time (don't even think of it now). I was fortunate in terms of when I went to law school and also in being "good" at law school (different from being a good attorney). But I went to a top 7 school before tuition rates increased to where they are now and in a different economic climate. I did not take on very much debt and was able to pay it off very easily within a few years. At the time that I went, I knew that the 'average' outcome from the law school I was attending would leave me in a fairly secure  financial place, even if I decided that I hated my job and wanted to switch within a few years. I also had one or two specific legal careers in mind that I had some evidence would be a good fit for me. Now, some years later, I am in the process of exiting the law altogether, because I can afford to take (much) lower paying work that I would enjoy more, lets me develop different skills, and has a better work/life balance.

I don't have any regrets about my decisions. However, if there was someone just like me asking to go to law school NOW, I would direct him to all the resources that I and others have posted here. Enjoying law school is simply not enough to make it worthwhile.

[totoro]

Who else should you be asking advice for if you are looking to enter a specific profession?  What you are calling selection bias is what I would call asking the right people for advice about something they actually know about because they are working in the field and went through law school.  I'd be asking doctors for advice if I wanted to become one and I'd make sure I got a good representative sample and read up on the changes in the practice too.

As far as "temporal bias" (and I'm not sure why we can't just use plain language), in my experience lawyers are usually fairly observant and the fact that you went to law school ten years ago doesn't mean you are not exposed to articled students and more recently called lawyers on a regular basis.  Or that you don't know what the salary surveys say.  And there are a number of more recent calls on this forum.

[CheapScholar]

I think the question depends where you are in your life (age, family) and what your goals are (make money, make a difference, simply sign JD after your name). 

There's no right or wrong answer.  I went to law school, a 4th tier one and payed nearly full tuition.  I went after taking one year off after undergrad.  I'd do it all over again.  I never practiced, never sat for the bar (always proudly say I am undefeated).  I worked as a policy analyst in DC after law school.  After that got old I went into higher education administration.  I love my career and my life.  I'm making enough to pay off my loans quickly.  For me law school was a great decision.  I never really had much desire to practice even when I entered law school, I just love things like policy.  At any rate, I have a few friends from law school who regret it.  The ones who regret it are not able to find legal jobs and they just haven't been able to self market their JDs as transferable degrees the way that I have.

Bottom line, if you do go to law school, have back up plans.  If you get into a T14 or even T20 I'd say consider it.  If you get a scholarship to a top school then definitely consider it!

[mozar]

Another contrarian here. I think it's great you are interested in civil rights. The trick is to pay as little as possible as it is not lucrative. The university of the district of Columbia has a great low cost law program. If you just want to understand your job better and you can find a local low cost program I think its a great idea. There is room for people in the profession who are not interested in BigLaw.

[vern]

http://adventuresinvoluntarysimplicity.blogspot.com/2008/10/follow-your-dreams.html

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/looking_for_simpler_life_lawyer_burns_harvard_law_degree

[MM_MG]

It's a hard way to make a good living.