Kia beats Toyota in JD Power 2021 Dependability Study

[RWD]

New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

No plastic crap on the engine in the new Kia EV6!  (also, no engine)

[thesis]

Why is anybody trusting a word that JD Power and Associates says?

I do hear better things about Hyundai and Kia these days, but a mechanic friend once said, I think about Kia, "Yeah, they're great for 100k miles, but then everything falls apart." That's a broad generalization, but it's important to realize that reliability comes in many forms. I  haven't seen a 90s Ford Contour in 10 or 15 years, not that I have eagle eyes for the makes and models of cars on the road. There's also a difference between a car that lasts a long time and a car that's worth taking care of for a long time. If the engine and transmission are known for being unstoppable beasts, people are more willing to pay for other repairs, for example. The real problem is when you have poorly engineered designs which cause parts to fail prematurely.

And the challenge is, just because a company was reliable in the past doesn't mean they are today. (Sometimes companies develop an ego and think they can get away with anything based on their reputation) It varies by model, by year, by parts. The 2007 4-cylinder Camry is known for burning oil because of the piston rings that were put in it. However, it's still a 2AZ-FE engine, which was otherwise super reliable before the 6th gen, if I understand correctly.

I think Toyota had a car that was basically made by Subaru? And that a Toyota engine or transmission was actually used in a Pontiac? [As in, Pontiac paid Toyota for it] These things make a difference. I'd stay away from fringe models, too. Just because a brand known for reliable produces it, doesn't mean it's a reliable model!

Frankly, this is one of several reasons I shy away from new cars. Sometimes you can plan to buy a model that is later in its own series, with the assumption that the issues have been worked out by then, but aforementioned mechanic friend says this isn't always the case, as sometimes the "fixes" end up being worse. Nonetheless, I'd never trust a first-in-series model, or brand new technology (I hear some early CVT transmissions sometimes didn't last 60k miles).

I bet Scotty Kilmer has weighed in on Kias and Hyundais....

[zolotiyeruki]

Why is anybody trusting a word that JD Power and Associates says?

...

And the challenge is, just because a company was reliable in the past doesn't mean they are today. (Sometimes companies develop an ego and think they can get away with anything based on their reputation) It varies by model, by year, by parts. The 2007 4-cylinder Camry is known for burning oil because of the piston rings that were put in it. However, it's still a 2AZ-FE engine, which was otherwise super reliable before the 6th gen, if I understand correctly.

I think Toyota had a car that was basically made by Subaru? And that a Toyota engine or transmission was actually used in a Pontiac? [As in, Pontiac paid Toyota for it] These things make a difference. I'd stay away from fringe models, too. Just because a brand known for reliable produces it, doesn't mean it's a reliable model!

I believe you're referring to the Pontiac Vibe, which has developed a bit of a cult following.  It's basically a Corolla under the skin.

For the 2007 Camry, is there a fix other than tearing down the engine and replacing the piston rings?

[ender]

I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

I just bought a Camry (new).

Looking at 10 year old ones and skimming prices of comparable models to ours, assuming ours depreciates similarly, I'm looking at ~2k/year in depreciation over that timeline (some of which might be recouped in gas/maintenance costs but offset with additional registration costs).

While that's more than buying old it's not like it's going to be that significant a financial cost.

[RWD]

Why is anybody trusting a word that JD Power and Associates says?

I mean, it's data from a survey of owners. Are you suggesting they are fabricating the results? We can debate the usefulness of the "number of problems in the the third year of ownership" metric but I haven't heard anything about JD Power being an untrustworthy source.

I think Toyota had a car that was basically made by Subaru? And that a Toyota engine or transmission was actually used in a Pontiac? [As in, Pontiac paid Toyota for it] These things make a difference. I'd stay away from fringe models, too. Just because a brand known for reliable produces it, doesn't mean it's a reliable model!

Yes, good to be aware of the details regarding any specific model you are considering. The Toyota you're thinking of is probably the Scion FR-S/Toyota 86 (shared design with Subaru BRZ). It has a Subaru drivetrain but most of the car is otherwise Toyota. It has also proven to be reasonably reliable (see Dashboard Light). I owned a Subaru BRZ with virtually zero issues for seven years.

The Pontiac Vibe was a rebadged Toyota Matrix. Unfortunately they didn't keep making these (either the Matrix or the Vibe).

Frankly, this is one of several reasons I shy away from new cars. Sometimes you can plan to buy a model that is later in its own series, with the assumption that the issues have been worked out by then, but aforementioned mechanic friend says this isn't always the case, as sometimes the "fixes" end up being worse. Nonetheless, I'd never trust a first-in-series model, or brand new technology (I hear some early CVT transmissions sometimes didn't last 60k miles).

There is definitely a fallacy that newer will automatically mean more reliable. A used car with known weaknesses can be a safer bet.

I bet Scotty Kilmer has weighed in on Kias and Hyundais....

And Dave Ramsey has weighed in on mortgages and credit cards. Kilmer has his shtick and doesn't give a fair or unbiased viewpoint.


I'm not saying we should just blindly assume that Kias and Hyundais are as reliable as Toyotas now (no one here seems to be doing that, either) because they did well in a couple JD Power surveys. But I do think its worth considering them fairly instead of dismissing them out of hand just because they had a poor track record over a decade ago.

With the electric vehicle revolution (which Kia is very serious about), cars are poised to become drastically more reliable than ever before.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115091_dealers-start-to-worry-about-ebbing-repair-income-from-electric-cars

[thesis]

For the 2007 Camry, is there a fix other than tearing down the engine and replacing the piston rings?

Check the oil level regularly and fill as needed :). Stuff like that really sucks. I guess it's better than, say, a transmission that dies and leaves you stranded, though. To be fair, though, a friend of a friend owns a 2007 that hasn't had this problem, though I wonder if that was a 6 cylinder, and I don't know if those had the same problem.

Why is anybody trusting a word that JD Power and Associates says?

I mean, it's data from a survey of owners. Are you suggesting they are fabricating the results? We can debate the usefulness of the "number of problems in the the third year of ownership" metric but I haven't heard anything about JD Power being an untrustworthy source.

When manufacturers claim to have a favorable review from a survey, it's like saying this month is truck month. Of course it's truck month. That's by design. It's always truck month.
Although, yeah, I'm probably thinking more able reliability, and I don't think 3 years cuts it. I may also be thinking about car awards in general, where it seems every manufacturer claims to have an award from somebody, and evaluating how good that award is can be difficult, as I'm sure some of these are just mouthpieces for the industry. JD Power is just the one I hear the most, so I may be committed egregious selection bias against them, which in retrospect isn't fair.

I think Toyota had a car that was basically made by Subaru? And that a Toyota engine or transmission was actually used in a Pontiac? [As in, Pontiac paid Toyota for it] These things make a difference. I'd stay away from fringe models, too. Just because a brand known for reliable produces it, doesn't mean it's a reliable model!

Yes, good to be aware of the details regarding any specific model you are considering. The Toyota you're thinking of is probably the Scion FR-S/Toyota 86 (shared design with Subaru BRZ). It has a Subaru drivetrain but most of the car is otherwise Toyota. It has also proven to be reasonably reliable (see Dashboard Light). I owned a Subaru BRZ with virtually zero issues for seven years.

The Pontiac Vibe was a rebadged Toyota Matrix. Unfortunately they didn't keep making these (either the Matrix or the Vibe).

Vibe! That was the one. I always thought that was kind of cool. I'm not familiar with Pontiacs, but I don't know that I'd trust them. But if you knew it was a rebranded Toyota, that might make it more reliable (in theory).

I bet Scotty Kilmer has weighed in on Kias and Hyundais....

And Dave Ramsey has weighed in on mortgages and credit cards. Kilmer has his shtick and doesn't give a fair or unbiased viewpoint.

I'm not saying we should just blindly assume that Kias and Hyundais are as reliable as Toyotas now (no one here seems to be doing that, either) because they did well in a couple JD Power surveys. But I do think its worth considering them fairly instead of dismissing them out of hand just because they had a poor track record over a decade ago.

With the electric vehicle revolution (which Kia is very serious about), cars are poised to become drastically more reliable than ever before.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115091_dealers-start-to-worry-about-ebbing-repair-income-from-electric-cars

That's fair.

[GodlessCommie]

With the electric vehicle revolution (which Kia is very serious about), cars are poised to become drastically more reliable than ever before.

This may have serious repercussions for ICE holdouts, too. As resources are shifted from ICE RnD to EV RnD, inherently lower reliability of combustion engine may be amplified by the inferiority of engineers that are left to work on it, just as emission regulations get tighter and tighter, demanding more from them. The farther behind a company is in terms of EV development, the more drastic resource shift they will have to perform, the more starved of talent and money the legacy business becomes. And yes, it very much applies to Toyota.

[wageslave23]

I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

I just bought a Camry (new).

A substantial cost is opportunity cost if paying cash, or interest if financing.  And then either risk of totaling an asset worth $30k vs. $10k, or the cost of full coverage.  Either way you are looking at another $1500-2000 per year on top of depreciation.

Looking at 10 year old ones and skimming prices of comparable models to ours, assuming ours depreciates similarly, I'm looking at ~2k/year in depreciation over that timeline (some of which might be recouped in gas/maintenance costs but offset with additional registration costs).

While that's more than buying old it's not like it's going to be that significant a financial cost.

[ender]

I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

I just bought a Camry (new).


Looking at 10 year old ones and skimming prices of comparable models to ours, assuming ours depreciates similarly, I'm looking at ~2k/year in depreciation over that timeline (some of which might be recouped in gas/maintenance costs but offset with additional registration costs).

While that's more than buying old it's not like it's going to be that significant a financial cost.

A substantial cost is opportunity cost if paying cash, or interest if financing.  And then either risk of totaling an asset worth $30k vs. $10k, or the cost of full coverage.  Either way you are looking at another $1500-2000 per year on top of depreciation.

Opportunity cost and/or interest sure. Auto loans now are stupidly low rate though. We have a loan at 2.49% over 75 months that... I hate having but man, why pay that early?

Insurance is a mixed bag too. Our premiums went down meaningfully (almost 10%) by buying a much more expensive car comparatively speaking (even with full coverage).

[dragoncar]

Obligatory jd powah https://youtu.be/zSBsq6HBBzw

[Paper Chaser]

With the electric vehicle revolution (which Kia is very serious about), cars are poised to become drastically more reliable than ever before.

This may have serious repercussions for ICE holdouts, too. As resources are shifted from ICE RnD to EV RnD, inherently lower reliability of combustion engine may be amplified by the inferiority of engineers that are left to work on it, just as emission regulations get tighter and tighter, demanding more from them. The farther behind a company is in terms of EV development, the more drastic resource shift they will have to perform, the more starved of talent and money the legacy business becomes. And yes, it very much applies to Toyota.

ICE engineers and EV engineers tend to have pretty different skillsets that are very specialized. An engineer that's spent a decade fine tuning the combustion process in ICEs to optimize emissions, power, and fuel economy isn't likely to just jump into battery chemistry development. Some of the basic engineering processes might translate but it's kind of like expecting an orthopedic surgeon to transition to oncology or something.

[BigEasyStache]

Obligatory jd powah https://youtu.be/zSBsq6HBBzw

+1M

[GodlessCommie]

ICE engineers and EV engineers tend to have pretty different skillsets that are very specialized. An engineer that's spent a decade fine tuning the combustion process in ICEs to optimize emissions, power, and fuel economy isn't likely to just jump into battery chemistry development. Some of the basic engineering processes might translate but it's kind of like expecting an orthopedic surgeon to transition to oncology or something.

True. And "inferiority of engineers" was a wrong way to put it. More like "inferiority of engineering teams" - a company, even one as big as Toyota, can only have a limited number of them. More resources shifted to EVs, more they are shifted *from* ICE, and it means letting people go, too.

[ender]

I'm really curious what Toyota has planned long term.

They got into hybrids really early but have been behind everywhere else when it comes to fully EV.

[RWD]

I'm really curious what Toyota has planned long term.

They got into hybrids really early but have been behind everywhere else when it comes to fully EV.

Unfortunately Toyota still seems to be overly invested in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Which would be fine except that they are sore losers and are now effectively lobbying against the BEV transition:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs-so-now-its-lobbying-to-slow-the-transition/

It's possible they have been trying to delay their entry into BEVs until their solid-state battery technology is ready. Though it appears they have finally caved and will be introducing the bZ4X BEV in 2023-ish. Shared development with the Subaru Solterra, so maybe it's Subaru that pressured them into finally making a BEV.

[JLee]

Does anyone conduct a 15 year reliability study?  Even if they did, I guess it wouldn't be worth much as the old models wouldn't necesarily reflect those rolling off the line.  Oh well, I'll stick with the one that has the best track record.

Not specifically a reliability study, but there is data for which cars people keep the longest - https://clark.com/cars/cars-people-keep-for-years/

[GodlessCommie]

Unfortunately Toyota still seems to be overly invested in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Which would be fine except that they are sore losers and are now effectively lobbying against the BEV transition:

Which is really, really sad. They have excellent, time-tested PHEV technology, and could have dominated this part of the EV market.

[nereo]

Unfortunately Toyota still seems to be overly invested in hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Which would be fine except that they are sore losers and are now effectively lobbying against the BEV transition:

Which is really, really sad. They have excellent, time-tested PHEV technology, and could have dominated this part of the EV market.

Yeah, I absolutely love my Honda PHEV.  But our next car will be a BEV, and by default it won't be a Honda.

[sisto]

We are super happy with our Hyundai's. We upgraded my wife's 2008 Ford Escape hybrid with a 2018 Santa Fe. I tried to get her into a Kona because I loved it, but it was too small for what she wanted. We were planning to buy the Tucson, but they did not have what we wanted and instead found us a really nice Santa Fe for a great price since that model was getting phased out for 2019. We also go 60 months at 0%. A year later I was helping my friend find a new SUV and discovered that the Kona came in an EV. I made the mistake of checking one out and ended up buying it. So I sold my 2007 Corolla and am in love with my Kona. I had really wanted a Tesla and loved the look of the Kona, so for me this was the best of both worlds.

[dragoncar]

I'm really curious what Toyota has planned long term.

They got into hybrids really early but have been behind everywhere else when it comes to fully EV.

I’ve been waiting for a sienna prime for years.  The only plug in minivan on the market is a Chrysler… pass.  Was gonna get a used one but the prices are too high right now.  Missed the window for a model y to make sense (tax credit+Clearing out the discontinued standard range model)

There are some good options in other markets which makes me grrr (we need to seat 6-7 regularly)

[nereo]

I'm really curious what Toyota has planned long term.

They got into hybrids really early but have been behind everywhere else when it comes to fully EV.

I’ve been waiting for a sienna prime for years.  The only plug in minivan on the market is a Chrysler… pass.  Was gonna get a used one but the prices are too high right now.  Missed the window for a model y to make sense (tax credit+Clearing out the discontinued standard range model)

There are some good options in other markets which makes me grrr (we need to seat 6-7 regularly)

I thought dragons ate their brood…?

[ender]

I'm really curious what Toyota has planned long term.

They got into hybrids really early but have been behind everywhere else when it comes to fully EV.

I’ve been waiting for a sienna prime for years.  The only plug in minivan on the market is a Chrysler… pass.  Was gonna get a used one but the prices are too high right now.  Missed the window for a model y to make sense (tax credit+Clearing out the discontinued standard range model)

There are some good options in other markets which makes me grrr (we need to seat 6-7 regularly)

We bought a hybrid Sienna this year. It's not fully plugin but I do like it - we actually get the advertised mileage on extended trips (~36 or so).

The disappointing thing is the federal tax credit doesn't apply and so if someone comes out with a better fully plugin minivan at a comparable cost, it'll effectively be a ton cheaper.

[tipster350]

I dont agree with the JD power analysis. It is based on a short period of years - from 0 to 3.  And what Mustacian in their right mind would buy a new car. Toyotas have reliability that stands up after 20years of use and in my case well over 300k miles - I would pay a bit extra and buy a 10 year old Toyota anyday.
New Kias seem to have a lot of plastic crap on the engine - kind of like Audi and BMW that will degrade over a period of a decade. JD power just cant assess that.

There’s a premium on used cars right now, or at least very recently

In 2012 when I was looking for a new car, the 2-4 year old cars were in short supply because fewer cars were sold during the 2008-10 downturn. I found the Kia Soul, with an included 10-year warranty, high reliability ratings, incredibly low price tag, and excellent gas mileage numbers to be a superior choice to the inflated used car deals. It has proven to be an excellent choice, as the cost of running the car (insurance, maintenance) has been cheap and I have had no problems with it.

In many, if not most cases, gently used cars are a better deal but I would caution against dogmatic and judgmental positions.