Author Topic: Just got laid off, what's next?  (Read 8862 times)

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2019, 08:06:41 PM »

A note about the taxable account: It's fairly concentrated in some long term growth stocks that I really don't want to sell...


This would scare me.  If you are highly concentrated in specific stocks that is really hard to see as a good multi-decade strategy.   All of the studies that lead to our vaunted 4% SWR rule are based on diversified holdings.  While no strategy is without risk, diversificiation is the best we have.

I enjoy taking calculated risks in concentrated positions. It is the only way I could have gotten to where I am today. I know it's not a Mustachian trait for most, but I truly enjoy the work and research that goes into it. About 20% of the portfolio is in diversified indexes. Doesn't go down much, but doesn't go up much either.

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2019, 08:09:32 PM »
You are a multimillionaire.

So you could do 6-months of funemployment, followed by early retirement?

I don't believe I will qualify for unemployment as I will be walking away myself. The environment is too toxic for a multimillionaire to put up with.

Any suggestions on how I can extract some money on my way out or exit in a way that would qualify me for unemployment? 

TomTX

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3512
  • Location: Texas
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2019, 07:03:38 AM »
You are a multimillionaire.

So you could do 6-months of funemployment, followed by early retirement?

I don't believe I will qualify for unemployment as I will be walking away myself. The environment is too toxic for a multimillionaire to put up with.

Any suggestions on how I can extract some money on my way out or exit in a way that would qualify me for unemployment?

You're effectively FI. Start acting like it.

Do your job, ignore the bullshit. Stand up for yourself.

Worthless meeting? Walk out. Consider ignoring future appointments from the organizer.

Time-suck of a coworker annoying you? Walk away, or ask them to leave you alone.

Worthless busywork? Don't do that part anymore. Focus on doing the worthwhile work.

Politicking backstabbers? Let everyone else know who they are and what they're doing.

Basically, don't put up with whatever is making your work environment toxic. Either it gets better, or they fire you - likely  for reasons unrelated to performance.

COEE

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2019, 08:26:11 AM »
You are a multimillionaire.

So you could do 6-months of funemployment, followed by early retirement?

I don't believe I will qualify for unemployment as I will be walking away myself. The environment is too toxic for a multimillionaire to put up with.

Any suggestions on how I can extract some money on my way out or exit in a way that would qualify me for unemployment?

Depending on the state that you live in, if it's not a good match, you may still qualify for unemployment if you quit.   It's worth a call to the UI office.

Apart from that - you can live just about anywhere in the world and not work another day.  I'm not feeling too bad for you, honestly.  I'm not even sure why you care about another measly $20k or something in unemployment checks and having to meet the requirements to get said checks.

If you really want to quit - then just quit.  Move if you have to... travel a bit.  Or be a d!ck to all your co-workers in hope of being laid off again, as the previous poster suggests.  That sounds like a great move that will help your professional network!

I'm actually in a similar situation (but with a substantially smaller NW) - My decision has been to tough it out - look for my next career change - and work on making this job work best for me... which does include ignoring some of the noise - but not at asshole levels.  Every day sucks, honestly, but I know something good is coming!

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2019, 09:19:56 AM »
I'm not even sure why you care about another measly $20k or something in unemployment checks and having to meet the requirements to get said checks.

Until we can sell the current house and purchase a new house it still feels uncomfortable to not have a check coming in. If nothing else, just to bridge the gap.

lhamo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9753
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2019, 09:25:05 AM »
You have 900k in a taxable account.  You are going to be fine.  Stop working at a place that is making you miserable.

Kay-Ell

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 150
  • Semi-retired in 2017
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2019, 01:10:57 PM »
One of the hurdles to FIRE that a lot of us face is general unease and anxiety over whether we really have enough to be secure and shouldnít we really be doing something productive right now, and what about college in 15 years, and, and, and.  It took me a full year to decompress and drop the constant uneasy feeling that I was forgetting something important. If you do decide not to go back to work for a while, I highly recommend you force yourself to take an entire year off before even beginning to search for a new job. Work through the decompression phase (which can be really uncomfortable at times) when your head has cleared, then make your decision about the long term.

In your situation hereís what I do.

Downsize the house, move out of the big city. Consider renting until you decide which town is right for you.
Diversify those investments! Iíd feel very uneasy if my investments werenít structured in a way that they were backed up by the Trinity study.
Take a year off, collect your unemployment, go on some trips with your family, get a feel for what your FIRE routine would feel like. Pay attention to what you love and whatís missing from your life.
Then if it were me, after a year Iíd see if I wanted to work part time on a passion project. Itís pretty easy to make some money if you want to.

The math would work out something like this:

$2,335,000 - all money, including proceeds from the house invested.
$93,000 - amount you could withdraw at 4%
$80,000 - annual expenses (includes an extra $2500/month for rent over and above your current 50k projected expenses)
$13,000 - amount that your stash is growing each year, assuming a measly 4% rate of return.

After 3 years, when your child is ready for school, your net worth will be about 2,375,000 (probably a lot more considering you will likely do much better than a 4% return). Take 700k to buy your new home. Leave the remaining 1,675,000 invested. At a 4% SWR youíre now able to pull $67,000/year. You own your house now so your expenses drop back to $50,000/year. In 13 years when the little one is ready for college, your Net Worth will have grown to 1,958,000. Again, this is assuming that you never do better than a 4% rate of return. This is assuming you and your wife never earn money outside of your stash. This is assuming you never optimize your spending below 50k year with a paid off house.  Even with all of this assumptions, you have plenty of money to pay cash for college and still never drop below a very comfortable FIRE number.

Iíll say again though, that despite the numbers, it can still be very unnerving to FIRE. If you do, and I highly recommend it, give yourself a lot of time to adjust before deciding that it would feel more comfortable going back to work and receiving a paycheck. Donít let unfounded anxiety dictate how you spend your time.

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2019, 04:03:44 PM »
It's official. Walked out on Monday! It wasn't any sort of memorable fuck you moment, but it felt great to exit entirely on my terms. 

What a feeling to finally take the single action that I had spent the last 10 years grinding towards and had only previously dreamed about -- and read about from other Mustachians.

I still don't feel 100% FIRE with the mortgage outstanding. While I know on paper it's FIRE, I'll just feel better once we can find a new house and finalize a deal with our existing house.

I appreciate everyone's support and ideas and will follow up on this thread once things are more settled.



 

lhamo

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9753
  • Location: Seattle
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2019, 04:11:42 PM »
Congratulations!   Enjoy your freedom.

pecunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2019, 08:42:33 PM »
Man oh man!

Freedom at 33.

Kay-Ell - I like the way you summarized it.  Life can be good if you work it right.

Congratulations - Take some time to smell the lilacs!

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5499
  • Location: Norway
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2019, 12:52:00 AM »
Congrats.

And at 33, you are so young that you have almost your whole life before you. You can do any kind of job that you fancy to you on your terms, if you feel for it.

Much Fishing to Do

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 522
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2019, 06:04:34 AM »

I still don't feel 100% FIRE with the mortgage outstanding. While I know on paper it's FIRE, I'll just feel better once we can find a new house and finalize a deal with our existing house.


At 33 years old and someone who had difficultly quitting a toxic job even as a millionaire, you'll undoubtedly make more money sometime in the next 30 years.  Maybe one possible path is to give yourself a timeline if need be to keep from jumping back on the next job? (like 3 years of being a stay at home dad and then you'll look for another year of work, etc? by then you may find yourself in what you consider comfortably FI anyway)

BicycleB

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • Location: Live Music Capital of the World
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2019, 10:07:57 AM »
Hi @Frugal D, just dropped into this thread to see how you are. So how are you??

Re feeling FIRE - I reached the feeling gradually. At this point, in Year Six, it's pretty clear that I will only work on terms I like: I've been meaning for years to start a small business to pad the stash, or pick up a job to sharpen/rejuvenate a skill or two, but I never do it. I just loaf a lot! (Which by they way, kids LOVE having parents at home...)

I am FIREd on a small fraction of what you have. No kids of my own, so proportionally, just a few percent less...about 500k for one person. At first, I didn't feel FIRE because I lost a job (was let go) due to losing concentration while taking care of an ailing parent. Later, I realized I could keep loafing forever on what I had, with roughly a 95% chance of never needing to pass up anything I really wanted for financial reasons.

Safety is indeed increased by diversifying. Living off capital has different "best practices" than accumulating. But you get to decide what your goals are, what risks you want to take, and how you will run the Frugal D Show. It's your life - enjoy it!!

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2019, 10:19:54 PM »
Hi @Frugal D, just dropped into this thread to see how you are. So how are you?

Thanks for checking in! We were able to close on the new house for $675k but still own the other home for now. It should be listed within days and banking the proceeds from the sale will help ease my nerves.

Washington state denied my unemployment claim which sucks but it was only worth $14k. At least I don't have to worry about continuing to fill out weekly claims any more!

Definitely doesn't feel like 100% FIRE yet. We haven't even taken a moment to appreciate and celebrate it as everyday continues to be filled with house projects from the new and old. I'll feel better once all moving related costs are behind us so I can get a better sense of what our monthly spending will be in the new set up.

I've been exploring the idea of starting a blog potentially documenting the journey along with the standard financial advice/suggestions, but does the world really need another one of those? I feel like my story is somewhat unique; FIRE at 33 with only 10 years in the work force. Unsure if I can monetize it or if anyone would care anyway.

Next big milestone is getting the house sold and our furniture moved over. Sucks sitting on the floor for dinner every night. I'll try to post an update after the sale.

Stay tuned.

londonbanker

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 220
  • Age: 39
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2019, 05:26:24 AM »
 Congrats on pulling the trigger. Will follow your development closely

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2019, 11:57:26 PM »
Well, Murphy's law. The house didn't sell nearly as fast as initially thought or at the price we hoped for. It was about a $50,000 swing on paper, but we're nicely settled in the new location enjoying FIRE, even if it's only temporary.

I've decided to give myself at least 12 months of FIRE to evaluate the new lifestyle and finances. I think FIRE is still possible, but the next 9 months will be telling now that the little guy has started pre-school.

Wish us luck!

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10668
  • Age: 61
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2019, 02:24:18 AM »
Well, Murphy's law. The house didn't sell nearly as fast as initially thought or at the price we hoped for. It was about a $50,000 swing on paper, but we're nicely settled in the new location enjoying FIRE, even if it's only temporary.

I've decided to give myself at least 12 months of FIRE to evaluate the new lifestyle and finances. I think FIRE is still possible, but the next 9 months will be telling now that the little guy has started pre-school.

Wish us luck!
Just got caught up. Posting to wish you all the luck in the world!

pecunia

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2019, 08:49:25 AM »
Well, Murphy's law. The house didn't sell nearly as fast as initially thought or at the price we hoped for. It was about a $50,000 swing on paper, but we're nicely settled in the new location enjoying FIRE, even if it's only temporary.

I've decided to give myself at least 12 months of FIRE to evaluate the new lifestyle and finances. I think FIRE is still possible, but the next 9 months will be telling now that the little guy has started pre-school.

Wish us luck!

I wish you luck.  Despite what the old song says - I think you are almost a kid at 33.  Lots of time.

https://genius.com/Danny-okeefe-good-time-charlies-got-the-blues-lyrics

henramdrea

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Southwest
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2019, 09:25:24 AM »
PTF

I said good-bye to Seattle about 4 years ago and never looked back.  Don't mind the visit, but the living environment was deteriorating before our very eyes in 2015.  We got out after about 22 years of living there.  Lived in Ballard, watched our little bungalow grow from $140K to over $600K and knew it was time to pull the trigger.  Moved to a suburb of Phoenix and have watched our new home here grow from $350K to near $500K as this place continues to grow.  I'm getting that "itchy" feeling again, building is going nuts again around us and it feels like the world followed us here!

Anyway.....I'm very happy for you and your family!  Hoping to find myself in a similar situation in the next few years!  Just a quick thought though:  you may want to eventually do some work in your field again, but on your own terms, i.e. contract or start start your own consulting project.  Keeps those skills sharp and ready for whatever may come.

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2019, 11:01:35 PM »
Only 3 months in and already getting so much push back from those around me. I've tried my best to frame this as "I'm just going to take some time off to spend with my child" but "friends" are so resistant to it. I don't get it. I have always read that FIRE is polarizing, but had no idea how much so.

People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage + car, but now that I have seem so annoyed by my lifestyle while they're tied to their monthly payments...

Oh well.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 07:32:10 PM by Frugal D »

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5499
  • Location: Norway
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2019, 11:28:13 PM »
Only 3 months in and already getting so much push back from those around me. I've tried my best to frame this as "I'm just going to take some time off to spend with my child" but "friends" are so resistant to it. I don't get it. I have always read that FIRE is polarizing, but had no idea how much so.

People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage + car, but now that I have seem so annoyed by my lifestyle while they're tied to their monthly payments...

It is probably a lot of envy. You are the visible proof of their different priorities.

Also, friends are often people who's lifestyle is a bit in common with yours. If you are suddenly no longer in the workforce, you will develop a whole different point of view towards life. You probably won't talk about your stressful working day or coming promotion at work, which maybe are subjects they can relate to. If you talk about you daily leasurely walks, relaxed morning coffees and your trips to x and y, they might not be able to relate to it.

RWTL

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2019, 02:19:17 AM »
Only 3 months in and already getting so much push back from those around me. I've tried my best to frame this as "I'm just going to take some time off to spend with my child" but "friends" are so resistant to it. I don't get it. I have always read that FIRE is polarizing, but had no idea how much so.

Such a shame.  I read a book that said to make a list of people you interact with and determine if they are positive or negative in your life.  Then, decide if you will continue to interact with the negative ones.

Shaved a few toxic relationships off my list in the end. 

Bloop Bloop

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 909
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2019, 02:48:48 AM »
Only 3 months in and already getting so much push back from those around me. I've tried my best to frame this as "I'm just going to take some time off to spend with my child" but "friends" are so resistant to it. I don't get it. I have always read that FIRE is polarizing, but had no idea how much so.

Such a shame.  I read a book that said to make a list of people you interact with and determine if they are positive or negative in your life.  Then, decide if you will continue to interact with the negative ones.

Shaved a few toxic relationships off my list in the end.

Good advice. Your friends should be in your camp - criticism is okay, as long as it's sincere, but pot shots and pettiness are not. If you get the feeling that your friends have a counter-productive attitude, ditch them. You'll be better off in the long run with supportive, emotionally healthy friends.

Kay-Ell

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 150
  • Semi-retired in 2017
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2019, 09:50:33 AM »
Just got caught up on your progress! Glad to hear you quit, found a new house and got the old one sold to free up some equity. Also glad to hear youíre committed to giving yourself a year of FIRE before taking next steps. One thing I discovered only after FIRE (Iím semi-FIRE as my financial reality requires that I continue to make some money over the coming years of my life. But with the flexibility that I donít need a job or to work under conditions I donít enjoy) is the opportunity cost of having full time employment. Once I was semi-FIRE I had to fight off income producing opportunities. The money part is the easy part. And I say this as a single mother with one child on a small portfolio, still paying a mortgage. You are going to be so far beyond fine in the money department. I canít wait to hear another update as your journey progresses.

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5725
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2019, 11:38:12 AM »
I retired at 58 and got a lot of comments by a couple we were friends with. Then my husband got laid off at 53 and couldn't find work. We both took our small pensions. They were furious about the pensions even though that's why we worked for government for smaller wages while they were self employed and working from home. The 16 year friendship ended because they couldn't drop it. But it didn't matter to the rest of our friends.  Considering how young you are I would start saying you are doing consulting from home:))

Rubic

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #75 on: September 16, 2019, 11:42:33 AM »
A note about the taxable account: It's fairly concentrated in some long term growth stocks that I really don't want to sell which is why working is still appealing as a means to pay for monthly expenses.

Have you considered the possibility of hedging some of these positions to de-risk your portfolio concentration?

robartsd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2400
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #76 on: September 16, 2019, 12:34:05 PM »
People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage
It is mathematically stupid to pay off your mortgage during accumulation (better to invest until you can pay off the whole thing and retire). But it's even stupider to spend the money instead of paying off the mortgage.

BicycleB

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • Location: Live Music Capital of the World
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #77 on: September 16, 2019, 01:03:27 PM »
We love ya, @Frugal D! Keep up the hard work relaxing lifestyle!

Maybe work is like drinking. At first when you quit, some people feel compelled to test you by getting you to partake of the old habit. Like someone posted, though, they're probably just threatened or jealous.

Looking forward to your future posts.

EliteZags

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2019, 03:40:46 PM »
care to summarize some details on how you amounted your NW on a low six figure salary? I assume wife worked a while, maybe some inheritances?

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2019, 07:34:07 PM »
Considering how young you are I would start saying you are doing consulting from home:))

Haha, this is exactly what I tell people I meet in our new neighborhood!


Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2019, 07:39:34 PM »
care to summarize some details on how you amounted your NW on a low six figure salary? I assume wife worked a while, maybe some inheritances?

It wasn't exactly "low" six figures. I began making over $100k my first job out of college and it went up from there.

My wife worked in retail so not much came in from her.

No inheritances whatsoever.

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2019, 07:41:36 PM »
People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage
It is mathematically stupid to pay off your mortgage during accumulation (better to invest until you can pay off the whole thing and retire). But it's even stupider to spend the money instead of paying off the mortgage.

We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.

Linea_Norway

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5499
  • Location: Norway
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2019, 01:20:32 AM »
We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.

A very good conclusion, personal preference.

robartsd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2400
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2019, 09:32:51 AM »
We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.
Yes, it is a valid preference to pay down a mortgage early. Paying down the mortgage feels safer and reduces the temptation to spend the money. Obviously, either paying down the mortgage or investing the money is much better than spending it.

That doesn't make it mathematically optimal to pay down non-callable loan with a low fixed rate instead of investing the money. It is mathematically provable that investing is usually the optimum choice. Arguing against investing being mathematically optimum is basically the same as timing the market. Investing is also likely to be the less risky choice even though it feels more risky. However, mathematical optimization isn't the only factor to consider.

Dicey

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10668
  • Age: 61
  • Location: NorCal
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2019, 09:37:43 AM »
People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage
It is mathematically stupid to pay off your mortgage during accumulation (better to invest until you can pay off the whole thing and retire). But it's even stupider to spend the money instead of paying off the mortgage.

We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

mm1970

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6760
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2019, 09:42:40 AM »
People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage
It is mathematically stupid to pay off your mortgage during accumulation (better to invest until you can pay off the whole thing and retire). But it's even stupider to spend the money instead of paying off the mortgage.

We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/
Dude, really, who made you the MMM police?

It's like saying "unless you are maintaining a $200 / month grocery bill like APowers, you can address personal preference, but not before."

It's a sliding scale.  Literally every single line item of spending/ expenses is a sliding scale.  Not every wants to, nor needs to, peg every line.

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2019, 10:34:26 AM »
People who will go to their grave telling me that it's mathematically stupid to pay off my mortgage
It is mathematically stupid to pay off your mortgage during accumulation (better to invest until you can pay off the whole thing and retire). But it's even stupider to spend the money instead of paying off the mortgage.

We're not going to get into the pay off mortgage vs. invest debate. It has been beat to death all over this site. It's a personal preference and we'll leave it at that.
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/

Again, not interested in getting into it. I'm doing what I believe to be the best choice based on my personal preferences toward debt, risk, return, etc.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 12:45:48 PM by Frugal D »

robartsd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2400
  • Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2019, 12:51:32 PM »
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/
Dude, really, who made you the MMM police?

It's like saying "unless you are maintaining a $200 / month grocery bill like APowers, you can address personal preference, but not before."

It's a sliding scale.  Literally every single line item of spending/ expenses is a sliding scale.  Not every wants to, nor needs to, peg every line.

Correct, you don't need to understand all those things before making a choice, just don't tout the choice as optimal before you do understand those things.

Again, not interested in getting into it, but did you put yourself through college and FIRE by age 33 without a dime from anyone else? I'm doing what I believe to be the best choice based on my personal preferences toward debt, risk, return, etc.
If you'd made a more mathematically optimal choice, maybe you could have retired at age 32? I doubt it would have made much of a difference in your life. Good job on figuring out finances early and choosing a lucrative career.

Dicey may have been a bit harsh in her tone, but you're the one who brought up the subject in a way that implied that your method was optimal. It's OK to admit that you are wrong about the math while still letting everyone know that you have no regrets about you choice. You can even run the numbers that show that you're in a special snowflake situation where it really did work out better in your case. It is plausible that someone could have paid off all their debt just before losing their job and having both stocks and real estate tank all at the same time; but based on your age, you likely finished school just as the companies started to spend money on hiring new talent, earned big bucks while the housing market lagged a bit allowing you to pick up a relative bargain, then rode a great bull market to FIRE in a decade.

Dicey also was once thrilled about paying extra on a mortgage only to learn shortly thereafter that it was not the optimal choice and change her choice in the future. She'd prefer to help as many people as possible know about the mathematically optimal choice as early as possible.


spartana

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 498
  • FIREd at 36? Or maybe it was 42?
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2019, 01:34:39 PM »
Well, Murphy's law. The house didn't sell nearly as fast as initially thought or at the price we hoped for. It was about a $50,000 swing on paper, but we're nicely settled in the new location enjoying FIRE, even if it's only temporary.

I've decided to give myself at least 12 months of FIRE to evaluate the new lifestyle and finances. I think FIRE is still possible, but the next 9 months will be telling now that the little guy has started pre-school.

Wish us luck!
Congrats! I enjoyed reading this thread and would agree with the others that you are definitely 100% FIRE so probably never need to work again. Although taking a year or 2 off to test the waters before making a decision is a good thing and can really help crystallize your future goals.

I took 2 years off and then went back to work for 4 years then quit forever. That 2 year work-break (at 36) really really REALLY made me realize how much I wanted to be FIREd and free. So when  I quit my job (again) at 42, I was so massively yearning to do other things that I thought I'd explode if I had to stay one more second (and I liked my job!).  Hopefully a long work-break will clarify whether you want to FIRE or not, what you'd want to do with your time,  and if you feel comfortable doing that on your income. I quit on much much less then you but I found that freedom was much more valuable to me then more money. Good luck.
...

achvfi

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 101
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2019, 01:35:46 PM »
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/
Dude, really, who made you the MMM police?

It's like saying "unless you are maintaining a $200 / month grocery bill like APowers, you can address personal preference, but not before."

It's a sliding scale.  Literally every single line item of spending/ expenses is a sliding scale.  Not every wants to, nor needs to, peg every line.

Correct, you don't need to understand all those things before making a choice, just don't tout the choice as optimal before you do understand those things.

Again, not interested in getting into it, but did you put yourself through college and FIRE by age 33 without a dime from anyone else? I'm doing what I believe to be the best choice based on my personal preferences toward debt, risk, return, etc.
If you'd made a more mathematically optimal choice, maybe you could have retired at age 32? I doubt it would have made much of a difference in your life. Good job on figuring out finances early and choosing a lucrative career.

Dicey may have been a bit harsh in her tone, but you're the one who brought up the subject in a way that implied that your method was optimal. It's OK to admit that you are wrong about the math while still letting everyone know that you have no regrets about you choice. You can even run the numbers that show that you're in a special snowflake situation where it really did work out better in your case. It is plausible that someone could have paid off all their debt just before losing their job and having both stocks and real estate tank all at the same time; but based on your age, you likely finished school just as the companies started to spend money on hiring new talent, earned big bucks while the housing market lagged a bit allowing you to pick up a relative bargain, then rode a great bull market to FIRE in a decade.

Dicey also was once thrilled about paying extra on a mortgage only to learn shortly thereafter that it was not the optimal choice and change her choice in the future. She'd prefer to help as many people as possible know about the mathematically optimal choice as early as possible.



LOL, here it goes again. OP makes it very clear, he is not interested in this discussion. Why hijack his thread and troll on it. This thread is very interesting without this crap.

FrugalToque

  • Global Moderator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
  • Location: Canada
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #90 on: September 17, 2019, 01:53:59 PM »
Dicey may have been a bit harsh in her tone, but you're the one who brought up the subject in a way that implied that your method was optimal.

[MOD NOTE:  No, the OP didn't.  The OP was criticising the ignorant "mortgage-hold" people in his circle of friends who blew their money.  The OP did not criticise the "mortgage-holders" in general or either of you in particular.  And while this isn't a journal entry, you've made your point and we can let it be from here on.

Thank you.]

Frugal D

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 230
  • Age: 33
Re: Just got laid off, what's next?
« Reply #91 on: Today at 01:17:38 PM »
Sure, fine. Except this is not a journal and you are on a site dedicated to achieving FIRE as fast and efficiently as possible. We're about doing the math first and then making the most optimal decision for your personal situation. If you've done that and you understand Shockingly Simple Math, and Investment Order, and you're maxing all your retirement investment options, then you can address personal preference, but not before. And speaking of "beating to death on this site" the mortgage payoff celebrations are far more active than the DPOYM thread.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/dont-payoff-your-mortgage-club/
Dude, really, who made you the MMM police?

It's like saying "unless you are maintaining a $200 / month grocery bill like APowers, you can address personal preference, but not before."

It's a sliding scale.  Literally every single line item of spending/ expenses is a sliding scale.  Not every wants to, nor needs to, peg every line.

Correct, you don't need to understand all those things before making a choice, just don't tout the choice as optimal before you do understand those things.

Again, not interested in getting into it, but did you put yourself through college and FIRE by age 33 without a dime from anyone else? I'm doing what I believe to be the best choice based on my personal preferences toward debt, risk, return, etc.
If you'd made a more mathematically optimal choice, maybe you could have retired at age 32? I doubt it would have made much of a difference in your life. Good job on figuring out finances early and choosing a lucrative career.

Dicey may have been a bit harsh in her tone, but you're the one who brought up the subject in a way that implied that your method was optimal. It's OK to admit that you are wrong about the math while still letting everyone know that you have no regrets about you choice. You can even run the numbers that show that you're in a special snowflake situation where it really did work out better in your case. It is plausible that someone could have paid off all their debt just before losing their job and having both stocks and real estate tank all at the same time; but based on your age, you likely finished school just as the companies started to spend money on hiring new talent, earned big bucks while the housing market lagged a bit allowing you to pick up a relative bargain, then rode a great bull market to FIRE in a decade.

Dicey also was once thrilled about paying extra on a mortgage only to learn shortly thereafter that it was not the optimal choice and change her choice in the future. She'd prefer to help as many people as possible know about the mathematically optimal choice as early as possible.

Ok, I took the incorrect path to FIRE and if I had optimized I could have accomplished this 1-2 years earlier. Cool. I'm not going to lose much sleep over it.

Your time might be better spent educating those who are not already FIRE.