Author Topic: JP Morgan CEO can't explain how his low paid employee should budget her salary  (Read 9408 times)

GuitarStv

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BTW; the Nordics don't have minimum wages. Instead, the unions are very strong, and negotiate tariff wages with the employers' unions. In sectors where the unions are less strong (or more commonly; where we have a lot of foreigners working), the unions and government can decide to use the tariffs as a minimum wage standard. So if you really dislike the government raising the minimum wages, maybe it is an idea to give more power to the unions? (:D)

This is an interesting point.  Strong unions (and a large percentage of the work force covered by unions) are the free market solution to solving the problem we're discussing . . . yet most of the people against raising minimum wage tend to be against unions too.

Unions raise wages by restricting the supply of labor.  Immigration lowers wages by increasing the supply of labor...

Yet most of the people in favor of unions, tend to also be in favor of more immigration.

I'm not sure that I agree with your initial assumptions there.  Specifically, the focus on restricting supply of labour.

Unions restrict flow of labour via strikes in order to negotiate better terms.  Restricting a flow of labour isn't where their power lies, their power lies in organizing a group of otherwise powerless employees.

Immigration as a whole significantly helps Canada's economy, not by providing an increased supply of labour and lowering wages but by providing skilled workers for jobs that otherwise couldn't be filled.  While I support allowing people to seek asylum in our country for humanitarian reasons, I don't know anyone who is heartily in favour of unrestricted/unvetted immigration.

Restricting labor supply is exactly how unions work. (And I'm not saying that's a bad thing). You're a developer and want to construct a building or your a car manufacturer. You'd like to bring in folks who don't currently have a job and pay them a lot less (to save money and because their productivity is lower), but the union won't let you. You can only hire from the smaller number of union members who demand higher wages.

If a company wants to hire non-unionized help, they're free to do so.  Unions have no power to prevent a company from doing that.

If a company wants to hire a union worker though, then yes, they have to negotiate with the union to come to fair terms.  This is in fact the only reason that unions have any power.  But you make it sound like restriction of labour is the purpose of unions.  Restriction of labour is the last thing that a union wants to do.  A union is healthiest and best functioning when most of it's members are working and earning money . . . labor restriction is used solely to negotiate fair terms.  The goal is always to keep members of the union working and busy.



I can't speak for Canada, but in the US, employers use Legal Guest Worker programs (H1-B, H2-A, etc.) to increase the labor supply to avoid having to pay higher wages.

I have no knowledge of H2-A visas so can't comment, but am familiar with the H1-B visa.  Your argument about H1-B visa workers makes no sense.  They are paid 2.8% more than their American counterparts (https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/) on average.  The idea that companies use H1-B visas to lower wages is therefore demonstrably incorrect.  Therefore it's an example of increasing the labour supply because of a shortage of skilled workers . . . not to pay people less.  The H1-B visa program helps to keep US companies competitive.  Without it your country will fall behind because there aren't enough talented Americans to fill the positions needed.  We have the same problem here in Canada, which I mentioned in my last post.



As for Open Borders, the Libertarians/Cato/Reason/Kochs are all for unfettered immigration. The Democrats current stance seems to be Anti-Anti-Open Borders. They aren't explicitly for Open Borders, but they're against any measures to effectively enforce them. The Republican Elite combined with the Chamber of Commerce types are all for the status quo where millions of immigrants (legal and illegal) continue to depress wages for US citizens.

Can you give some examples where democrats are opposing any measure to effectively enforce borders?

Papa bear

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So I went back to re-listen to this.  Most of the arguments here in the thread are about minimum wage.  Her gross income is 35,070 per annum.  The congresswoman estimated withholdings (probably taxes, healthcare, etc) to get net of 29,100 per annum.

Her gross salary of 35,070 is 16.86/hour.  This is quoted in the video as a basic,
No skill, right out of high school job. This is already well above minimum wage AND higher than what is proposed in many areas.

The arguments on this thread are about minimum wage.  A national minimum wage above 16.86/ hour would have some nasty unintended consequences.  Hell, RN starting hourly wages arenít that far off from this number.  And that is a degreed position. 

This is nuts. The employee needs MMM. 

Plus, what jobs can you name that actually pay minimum wage?  I canít think of many outside of cashier in restaurant or retail.  Labor jobs pay better.  Warehousing pays better. Delivery drivers pay better.  Cleaning services pay better.  Bussing and waiting end up paying better after tips. 

What is a minimum wage job? 


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And wait!  Employee had a budget shortfall of 567/month.  That would be gross 683/month if she needed to get that from W2.

That is 8,196/year, bringing here break even salary to 44,266/ year for an hourly rate of $20.80. 

And that doesnít account for savings, fun, emergencies, etc.

So now the living wage is 20.80/hour.  Is that what youíre arguing???


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wageslave23

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So I went back to re-listen to this.  Most of the arguments here in the thread are about minimum wage.  Her gross income is 35,070 per annum.  The congresswoman estimated withholdings (probably taxes, healthcare, etc) to get net of 29,100 per annum.

Her gross salary of 35,070 is 16.86/hour.  This is quoted in the video as a basic,
No skill, right out of high school job. This is already well above minimum wage AND higher than what is proposed in many areas.

The arguments on this thread are about minimum wage.  A national minimum wage above 16.86/ hour would have some nasty unintended consequences.  Hell, RN starting hourly wages arenít that far off from this number.  And that is a degreed position. 

This is nuts. The employee needs MMM. 

Plus, what jobs can you name that actually pay minimum wage?  I canít think of many outside of cashier in restaurant or retail.  Labor jobs pay better.  Warehousing pays better. Delivery drivers pay better.  Cleaning services pay better.  Bussing and waiting end up paying better after tips. 

What is a minimum wage job? 


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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

StarBright

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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

There would still be accountants because there are families that don't want to share a bed/room with their children, or might want to take a vacation, or go to the movies or eat at restaurants sometimes. Most people want more than a barebones life- especially if they have kids.

The example budget being discussed has a person in the hole every month with only providing for "The Four Walls" (as Dave Ramsey calls them). Even if we slash her food budget in half, take away her car payment on an old car, and cut her cell phone down to 20 a month, the sample budget is still in the hole. I'm not seeing how much more mustachian the sample budget can get than the changes I've suggested.

There might be some extreme things to do with housing - but having a small child might make that much harder.

Papa bear

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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

There would still be accountants because there are families that don't want to share a bed/room with their children, or might want to take a vacation, or go to the movies or eat at restaurants sometimes. Most people want more than a barebones life- especially if they have kids.

The example budget being discussed has a person in the hole every month with only providing for "The Four Walls" (as Dave Ramsey calls them). Even if we slash her food budget in half, take away her car payment on an old car, and cut her cell phone down to 20 a month, the sample budget is still in the hole. I'm not seeing how much more mustachian the sample budget can get than the changes I've suggested.

There might be some extreme things to do with housing - but having a small child might make that much harder.
What?!? The 1br apartment is 1600/month. Zillow rentals shows many other places for cheaper. Especially with a car, she can move somewhere cheaper.

And moving costs?  She has a van. That can pack up every bit of her small apartment.


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StarBright

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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

There would still be accountants because there are families that don't want to share a bed/room with their children, or might want to take a vacation, or go to the movies or eat at restaurants sometimes. Most people want more than a barebones life- especially if they have kids.

The example budget being discussed has a person in the hole every month with only providing for "The Four Walls" (as Dave Ramsey calls them). Even if we slash her food budget in half, take away her car payment on an old car, and cut her cell phone down to 20 a month, the sample budget is still in the hole. I'm not seeing how much more mustachian the sample budget can get than the changes I've suggested.

There might be some extreme things to do with housing - but having a small child might make that much harder.
What?!? The 1br apartment is 1600/month. Zillow rentals shows many other places for cheaper. Especially with a car, she can move somewhere cheaper.

And moving costs?  She has a van. That can pack up every bit of her small apartment.


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hmm - I'm definitely not seeing what you are seeing then. I looked on both zillow and apartments.com and didn't see any available apartments under 1200 a month (in Irvine) that weren't a renting a room in a shared home. I would call sharing a home with strangers when you have a kid to be "extreme" for most people. And let's face it, most professionals who are renting a room out in their home probably don't want a kindergartner running around.

While there might not be physical moving expenses, it is hard to come up with first month, last month and security deposit (so three months rent up front) for a person that is in the hole (or even breaking even) every month.

I'm also figuring that there are constraints with post school childcare pick up times and job ending times that would make moving extremely far out for cheaper housing difficult. I have family that lived in Irvine (in an apartment) for a while and it took forever to get anywhere because of traffic. 

FWIW - I live in a place with absolutely zero traffic and it is a race to make it to childcare pick up in time after we finish work. And you have to make it on time or else there are extra fees.

I'm not saying it is impossible to make it work - I'm saying it would be darn hard to make it work in the best of circumstances. And life rarely presents us the best circumstances all of the time.

JLee

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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

There would still be accountants because there are families that don't want to share a bed/room with their children, or might want to take a vacation, or go to the movies or eat at restaurants sometimes. Most people want more than a barebones life- especially if they have kids.

The example budget being discussed has a person in the hole every month with only providing for "The Four Walls" (as Dave Ramsey calls them). Even if we slash her food budget in half, take away her car payment on an old car, and cut her cell phone down to 20 a month, the sample budget is still in the hole. I'm not seeing how much more mustachian the sample budget can get than the changes I've suggested.

There might be some extreme things to do with housing - but having a small child might make that much harder.
What?!? The 1br apartment is 1600/month. Zillow rentals shows many other places for cheaper. Especially with a car, she can move somewhere cheaper.

And moving costs?  She has a van. That can pack up every bit of her small apartment.


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Yeah, I was just looking....1br close to Irvine for $1195: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/2092720886_zpid/0-316828_price/0-1250_mp/33.881105,-117.648296,33.599322,-118.017025_rect/11_zm/

I don't know what's a reasonable distance out there, but just assuming that someone has to pay average rent someplace is just as bad as assuming that someone has average household income for that area.

Dabnasty

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So I went back to re-listen to this.  Most of the arguments here in the thread are about minimum wage.  Her gross income is 35,070 per annum.  The congresswoman estimated withholdings (probably taxes, healthcare, etc) to get net of 29,100 per annum.

Her gross salary of 35,070 is 16.86/hour.  This is quoted in the video as a basic,
No skill, right out of high school job. This is already well above minimum wage AND higher than what is proposed in many areas.

The arguments on this thread are about minimum wage.  A national minimum wage above 16.86/ hour would have some nasty unintended consequences.  Hell, RN starting hourly wages arenít that far off from this number.  And that is a degreed position. 

This is nuts. The employee needs MMM. 

Plus, what jobs can you name that actually pay minimum wage?  I canít think of many outside of cashier in restaurant or retail.  Labor jobs pay better.  Warehousing pays better. Delivery drivers pay better.  Cleaning services pay better.  Bussing and waiting end up paying better after tips. 

What is a minimum wage job? 


Ha, the first time I saw her giving her estimated numbers all I could think was, "this is no way to do a case study, she needs to give us more information. Here's the preferred case study format, fill it out and get back to us."

But seriously, the way she just threw some numbers out and asked him what this employee should do, is a ridiculous question that can't be properly answered in the format she's demanding. Then all the news sites spin the story with a headline like "JP Morgan CEO can't explain how his low paid employee should budget her salary" or "Katie Porter Stumps JPMorgan Chaseís Jamie Dimon With Question About Employeeís Income". No, he said he can't answer her question without taking some time to look at the numbers, which is an absolutely fair response.

To be clear, I have no interest in defending Jamie Dimon, I'm just trying to call it like I see it.


StarBright

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What's even more ridiculous about this whole discussion is that if I could work an entry level, no pressure, no education job then why would I go to college, work a stressful job, etc?  If every position paid enough to support a family, then there wouldn't be any accountants.  There would be a hell of a lot of park rangers, walmart greeters, hostesses, crossing guards, tour guides, etc.

There would still be accountants because there are families that don't want to share a bed/room with their children, or might want to take a vacation, or go to the movies or eat at restaurants sometimes. Most people want more than a barebones life- especially if they have kids.

The example budget being discussed has a person in the hole every month with only providing for "The Four Walls" (as Dave Ramsey calls them). Even if we slash her food budget in half, take away her car payment on an old car, and cut her cell phone down to 20 a month, the sample budget is still in the hole. I'm not seeing how much more mustachian the sample budget can get than the changes I've suggested.

There might be some extreme things to do with housing - but having a small child might make that much harder.
What?!? The 1br apartment is 1600/month. Zillow rentals shows many other places for cheaper. Especially with a car, she can move somewhere cheaper.

And moving costs?  She has a van. That can pack up every bit of her small apartment.


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Yeah, I was just looking....1br close to Irvine for $1195: https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_rent/2092720886_zpid/0-316828_price/0-1250_mp/33.881105,-117.648296,33.599322,-118.017025_rect/11_zm/

I don't know what's a reasonable distance out there, but just assuming that someone has to pay average rent someplace is just as bad as assuming that someone has average household income for that area.
I know Irvine reasonably well - that would be about 30 -40 minutes to the Spectrum area, maybe 20 minutes to UC Irvine in typical traffic. So it would definitely depend on where the job is located and whether there is available cheap after school care in Costa Mesa that has a doable pick up time.  FWIW - that was only one apartment that I saw.  I also saw two in Garden Grove, but the traffic would make that REALLY tough.

Papa bear

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Why does it have to be Irvine?  Looks like Santa Ana has plenty of options. 

I donít know LA, but youíve got a car.  Go find a place. 

I understand there are going to be constraints.  But this employee is living a life that has to be financed.  Even with 30k a year in net cash every year, as an entry level unskilled worker. Thats ludicrous. 

Or I find 76 options in the area for a 2br at 2k or less.  Employee has no friends to live with?  A roommate brings her costs down to 1k/month housing, easily beating her monthly shortfall, and leaving some left over.

Story is, when you have no money due to your housing choices, you figure it out. Employee needs to figure it out.

Let me say it again. 30k NET cash annually. 


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cloudsail

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So I went back to re-listen to this.  Most of the arguments here in the thread are about minimum wage.  Her gross income is 35,070 per annum.  The congresswoman estimated withholdings (probably taxes, healthcare, etc) to get net of 29,100 per annum.

Her gross salary of 35,070 is 16.86/hour.  This is quoted in the video as a basic,
No skill, right out of high school job. This is already well above minimum wage AND higher than what is proposed in many areas.

The arguments on this thread are about minimum wage.  A national minimum wage above 16.86/ hour would have some nasty unintended consequences.  Hell, RN starting hourly wages arenít that far off from this number.  And that is a degreed position. 

This is nuts. The employee needs MMM. 

Plus, what jobs can you name that actually pay minimum wage?  I canít think of many outside of cashier in restaurant or retail.  Labor jobs pay better.  Warehousing pays better. Delivery drivers pay better.  Cleaning services pay better.  Bussing and waiting end up paying better after tips. 

What is a minimum wage job? 


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And wait!  Employee had a budget shortfall of 567/month.  That would be gross 683/month if she needed to get that from W2.

That is 8,196/year, bringing here break even salary to 44,266/ year for an hourly rate of $20.80. 

And that doesnít account for savings, fun, emergencies, etc.

So now the living wage is 20.80/hour.  Is that what youíre arguing???


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I don't think I would support a minimum wage of $21/hr, and I honestly don't know many people who would.

Her biggest problem is that she lives in Irvine. Her second biggest problem is that she has to pay for childcare.

Sure, it's not going to be a piece of cake to find cheaper housing in an expensive area, especially with a kid. But you know, if life was a piece of cake, she wouldn't even be in this situation. You wanna get ahead, you gotta work for it. My friend who was a single mom in Seattle, lived with her daughter in the house of an old Taiwanese couple. She paid them in cash, and they were even able to watch her daughter for a couple hours in emergencies. Yeah, it wasn't easy to find, and it sucked living in someone else's house, but if that's what you have to do to stay out of debt, you do it.

v8rx7guy

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I wish The CEO would have said, "I think she should reduce her expenses and live below her means".  I think that's what the congresswoman wanted him to say, she seemed to be baiting him and probably had a lot of debate points ready to go.

ETA: I don't think the Department of Agriculture defines a low cost food budget as "Ramen Noodles".  I bit of a stretch there...
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 12:28:35 PM by v8rx7guy »

tedman

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Right now my wife and I ( I treat her as a roommate in my Fire Calc spreadsheet), spend 1850 a month on a co-op in NYC. We used to spend 2250 on a 2BR in Manhattan proper. Obviously what Iím saying is Anecdotal, but so is the story about the teller, and once upon a time I was a teller working for Chase living near NYC.

We spend, gasp, 40k a year on everything. An extremely unmustachian 150 on cable, 100 on cell phones, 650 total on car finance, garage spot, maint,gas and GEICO, 450 on health insurance.

We also send 5k a year to the city just on city taxes as a worker living inside the 5 boroughs (not included in that 40k, just illustrating how expensive NYC can be). My wife does NOT have a mustache at all but she is more typically frugal. The fact that we have a car in the most expansive place in America to have one, spend like Emperors on so many items and burn only 10k more a year (what id guess a typical kid would cost us) tells me she has a lot of room for improvement. We save less than Iíd like but my wife has a Government pension, and Iím hopefully due for some big career jumps from certifications Iím about to finish, but this woman has a ton of earnings to gain by hustling at work, I used to make 100-250 a month opening and helping customers with accounts.

All that said, inequality is insane, CEO pay is out of control, taxes are way too low on the ultra wealthy, and itís either going to be fixed through legislation or there will be a serious problem eventually like a war or god knows which would awful. Iím a huge fan of Katie Porter and I think the spirit behind her point is right on, just this cherry picked example was too easily shown to be on shaky grounds by the serious go getters in this community (Iím not one, I only save 45% of my salary currently ).

I hope things change for the better for those amongst us who donít have our advantages.

mm1970

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I've always found these discussions extremely interesting. I get the idea of a "living wage" it makes conceptual sense to me, I guess there are differing definitions of what one means by living wage. I also think the circumstances one is in are an interesting caveat. Obviously it seems harsh to say that a single mother of one "put herself in that situation" as clearly it takes two to make a baby,

So, how would one feel if Republicans get their way and pass legislation making abortion illegal if say you can hear a heartbeat? It means a woman even if she or her partner used protection and it failed, would be forced to carry the pregnancy. And I know from personal situations even when the woman intends to give up the child for adoption, cannot. But it sounds like even though her ability to terminate the pregnancy is prevented by government, the government, and the posters feel the woman, soley, is responsible for all external costs? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

The fact is, a woman might be raising a child solo for all sorts of reasons, including that the father abandoned her and the child at any point after conception. There are some things out of one's control, including at times, being a single parent. These judgements seem uncharacteristically harsh for this internet community.

Seems to be the new normal.  I dunno why.  An influx of younger wealthier people without families?  Or, who...haven't really seen a lot of the world/ US/ etc?  Not a lot of empathy, and sometimes you have to gain empathy by actually meeting and interacting with different people.


I donít agree that heathy able bodied people are somehow entitled to a certain standard of living. Sure if you are disabled, elderly or a child society should step in, but if you just donít want to work or donít want two jobs? Tough for you.
Can you be more specific?  Above you listed a certain standard of living for a family.  If you are willing to work, shouldn't there be a minimum standard of living?

Also I'm unclear on the bolded.  Do you mean that the expectation for anyone is that if you can't pay bills on one job, you must be willing to work 2 full time jobs (for a single person?)

Seems...strange and pointless.  Why did people fight for a 40-hour workweek again?

Why does it have to be Irvine?  Looks like Santa Ana has plenty of options. 

I donít know LA, but youíve got a car.  Go find a place. 

I understand there are going to be constraints.  But this employee is living a life that has to be financed.  Even with 30k a year in net cash every year, as an entry level unskilled worker. Thats ludicrous. 

Ah ha ha, you don't know LA.  That is funny!  I avoid it like the plague, but let's just say we recently drove THROUGH it on spring break and traffic turned a 4 hour drive into an 8 hour drive.  So...just stop right now when talking about traffic in LA.

So, the employee works at a bank?  My mother was a teller, did not have a college education (though many do), and it is most definitely NOT an unskilled position.

DadJokes

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Maybe this is a pretentious suggestion and may be covered by the article, but has she considered not living in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world? Despite the usual objections, it's not expensive to move, nor would it be difficult to find a "low paying" job elsewhere.

Papa bear

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I've always found these discussions extremely interesting. I get the idea of a "living wage" it makes conceptual sense to me, I guess there are differing definitions of what one means by living wage. I also think the circumstances one is in are an interesting caveat. Obviously it seems harsh to say that a single mother of one "put herself in that situation" as clearly it takes two to make a baby,

So, how would one feel if Republicans get their way and pass legislation making abortion illegal if say you can hear a heartbeat? It means a woman even if she or her partner used protection and it failed, would be forced to carry the pregnancy. And I know from personal situations even when the woman intends to give up the child for adoption, cannot. But it sounds like even though her ability to terminate the pregnancy is prevented by government, the government, and the posters feel the woman, soley, is responsible for all external costs? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

The fact is, a woman might be raising a child solo for all sorts of reasons, including that the father abandoned her and the child at any point after conception. There are some things out of one's control, including at times, being a single parent. These judgements seem uncharacteristically harsh for this internet community.

Seems to be the new normal.  I dunno why.  An influx of younger wealthier people without families?  Or, who...haven't really seen a lot of the world/ US/ etc?  Not a lot of empathy, and sometimes you have to gain empathy by actually meeting and interacting with different people.


I donít agree that heathy able bodied people are somehow entitled to a certain standard of living. Sure if you are disabled, elderly or a child society should step in, but if you just donít want to work or donít want two jobs? Tough for you.
Can you be more specific?  Above you listed a certain standard of living for a family.  If you are willing to work, shouldn't there be a minimum standard of living?

Also I'm unclear on the bolded.  Do you mean that the expectation for anyone is that if you can't pay bills on one job, you must be willing to work 2 full time jobs (for a single person?)

Seems...strange and pointless.  Why did people fight for a 40-hour workweek again?

Why does it have to be Irvine?  Looks like Santa Ana has plenty of options. 

I donít know LA, but youíve got a car.  Go find a place. 

I understand there are going to be constraints.  But this employee is living a life that has to be financed.  Even with 30k a year in net cash every year, as an entry level unskilled worker. Thats ludicrous. 

Ah ha ha, you don't know LA.  That is funny!  I avoid it like the plague, but let's just say we recently drove THROUGH it on spring break and traffic turned a 4 hour drive into an 8 hour drive.  So...just stop right now when talking about traffic in LA.

So, the employee works at a bank?  My mother was a teller, did not have a college education (though many do), and it is most definitely NOT an unskilled position.

It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.


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mathlete

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Maybe this is a pretentious suggestion and may be covered by the article, but has she considered not living in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world? Despite the usual objections, it's not expensive to move, nor would it be difficult to find a "low paying" job elsewhere.

Okay, then where do the we find the labor to fill low paying jobs in high COL areas?

Papa bear

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Maybe this is a pretentious suggestion and may be covered by the article, but has she considered not living in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world? Despite the usual objections, it's not expensive to move, nor would it be difficult to find a "low paying" job elsewhere.

Okay, then where do the we find the labor to fill low paying jobs in high COL areas?

I donít think it was suggested that everyone has to move.  This employee chooses to live alone in their own apartment, spend too much on an oversized vehicle(for her), eat fabulous food, and still run a deficit.  For someone with those needs, maybe they need to find another location, figure out how to make more money, or just run up CC debt. Thatís the employees choice.

I lived with roommates until I was married.  There would be plenty of eager, unattached, HS educated people who could easily make this work. Plus, at close to 17/hour, plenty of attached, partnered, married, or other people that would be sharing housing that could take this job.

Remember, this job pays more than 5k net cash than MMM budget for his family. 


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Dabnasty

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Maybe this is a pretentious suggestion and may be covered by the article, but has she considered not living in one of the highest cost of living areas in the world? Despite the usual objections, it's not expensive to move, nor would it be difficult to find a "low paying" job elsewhere.

Okay, then where do the we find the labor to fill low paying jobs in high COL areas?

If there's no one else to fill the position at $16.50 1) the hourly rate would go up, 2) more automation would be introduced, or 3) if the position doesn't provide enough value to JP Morgan to raise the rates (unlikely) it may just be eliminated.

My guess as to what would actually happen though is that someone with lower expenses would take the job and it would pay enough to support them.

mathlete

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I donít think it was suggested that everyone has to move.  This employee chooses to live alone in their own apartment, spend too much on an oversized vehicle(for her), eat fabulous food, and still run a deficit.  For someone with those needs, maybe they need to find another location, figure out how to make more money, or just run up CC debt. Thatís the employees choice.

I lived with roommates until I was married.  There would be plenty of eager, unattached, HS educated people who could easily make this work. Plus, at close to 17/hour, plenty of attached, partnered, married, or other people that would be sharing housing that could take this job.

On a macroeconomic scale, are we just saying that huge portions of the country, including our largest job centers like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, New York, and Austin are off limits to median income single mothers?

Congresswoman Porter was not actually asking Dimon to solve one single mother's financial woes. She was illustrating a market failure. A market that demands low skill workers, but does not pay them high enough wages, is a market failure. There are ways to address this failure that don't include the mass exodus of single mothers from urban job centers.

Remember, this job pays more than 5k net cash than MMM budget for his family. 

MMM is incredibly wealthy. Wealthy people have options available to them that poor people do not. And his published low spending does not truly capture the cost of his lifestyle. It's meant as an illustration of how people of means can hack the system, live on less, and build wealth. It's not guideline for single mothers.

StarBright

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It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.

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I thought it was interesting that he said that. With degree inflation everything seems to require degrees now. My boss won't even hire admin assistants that don't have a bachelor's degree.

I just looked up bank teller positions in my town (in Ohio) and both said High School Diploma plus at least one year in a customer service position, or a bachelor's degree. Both adds said Bachelor's degree preferred. So not quite entry level.

Here is some wording from a Huntington Bank ad:
Basic Qualifications
ē HS Diploma or GED
ē 1 year+ experience working with customers. Can include military service with administration, contracting, civil affairs, or similar experience
Or
ē Bachelor's degree
Preferred Qualifications
ē A Bachelor's Degree in a business related field is preferred, but not required


JLee

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It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was interesting that he said that. With degree inflation everything seems to require degrees now. My boss won't even hire admin assistants that don't have a bachelor's degree.

I just looked up bank teller positions in my town (in Ohio) and both said High School Diploma plus at least one year in a customer service position, or a bachelor's degree. Both adds said Bachelor's degree preferred. So not quite entry level.

Here is some wording from a Huntington Bank ad:
Basic Qualifications
ē HS Diploma or GED
ē 1 year+ experience working with customers. Can include military service with administration, contracting, civil affairs, or similar experience
Or
ē Bachelor's degree
Preferred Qualifications
ē A Bachelor's Degree in a business related field is preferred, but not required

There is absolutely zero reason for someone to require a degree for a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.

A stated requirement of "one year of customer service experience" is extremely entry level.  Did you work in a supermarket when you were in high school? Done.

mathlete

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There is absolutely zero reason for someone to have a degree to be a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.

Sure, but the job market is competitive. If you have smarter applicants available, why not hire them?

cloudsail

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I've always found these discussions extremely interesting. I get the idea of a "living wage" it makes conceptual sense to me, I guess there are differing definitions of what one means by living wage. I also think the circumstances one is in are an interesting caveat. Obviously it seems harsh to say that a single mother of one "put herself in that situation" as clearly it takes two to make a baby,

So, how would one feel if Republicans get their way and pass legislation making abortion illegal if say you can hear a heartbeat? It means a woman even if she or her partner used protection and it failed, would be forced to carry the pregnancy. And I know from personal situations even when the woman intends to give up the child for adoption, cannot. But it sounds like even though her ability to terminate the pregnancy is prevented by government, the government, and the posters feel the woman, soley, is responsible for all external costs? Doesn't sound too fair to me.

The fact is, a woman might be raising a child solo for all sorts of reasons, including that the father abandoned her and the child at any point after conception. There are some things out of one's control, including at times, being a single parent. These judgements seem uncharacteristically harsh for this internet community.

Seems to be the new normal.  I dunno why.  An influx of younger wealthier people without families?  Or, who...haven't really seen a lot of the world/ US/ etc?  Not a lot of empathy, and sometimes you have to gain empathy by actually meeting and interacting with different people.

It is precisely because most people here don't come from money and didn't win the lottery or obtain our money through luck. When we were poor or our parents were poor or our grandparents were poor, who gave us handouts? I have a lot of empathy for people stuck in bad situations out of their control, like abused women or children, but not a lot for people who are where they are because the good decisions were hard.

I also don't see anything wrong with a six year old sharing a room with her mother. Where I come from it's pretty normal for an entire family to live in one room. In fact, I was in this exact situation when I was six, I slept in a room with my parents in a shared rental in a crappy old house. I got my own room when I was eight, when we moved into a two bedroom suite in the basement of a slightly nicer house.

JLee

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There is absolutely zero reason for someone to have a degree to be a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.

Sure, but the job market is competitive. If you have smarter applicants available, why not hire them?

A 2.4% unemployment rate would disagree with that..

mathlete

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It is precisely because most people here don't come from money and didn't win the lottery or obtain our money through luck. When we were poor or our parents were poor or our grandparents were poor, who gave us handouts? I have a lot of empathy for people stuck in bad situations out of their control, like abused women or children, but not a lot for people who are where they are because the good decisions were hard.

This may be a little beyond the scope of discussion, but a whole lot of people who weren't actually poor "feel" like they were poor. This goes double for the bootstrappy personal finance crowd.

Just the other week we had someone who was the child of dual income land owners talking about growing up poor. That's just silly.

Of course, everyone is a unique situation and we all have reasons why we think our upbringing was super difficult, but as a blanket response to the people you describe, I'd tell them,

1.) You're not that poor
2.) Your parents probably got a lot of handouts

mathlete

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A 2.4% unemployment rate would disagree with that..

For Irvine California in April of 2019, sure absolutely. But millennials are poised to become the largest generation in the United States soon, and a lot of us came of age during 10% U3 unemployment and evaporating low skill-well paying labor. Some of us went to college for a shot at the higher paying industries. Some of us got into those industries. Others became overqualified bank tellers.


JLee

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A 2.4% unemployment rate would disagree with that..

For Irvine California in April of 2019, sure absolutely. But millennials are poised to become the largest generation in the United States soon, and a lot of us came of age during 10% U3 unemployment and evaporating low skill-well paying labor. Some of us went to college for a shot at the higher paying industries. Some of us got into those industries. Others became overqualified bank tellers.

If your argument is "the job market may be competitive in the future" instead of "the job market is competitive", then sure.  :P

I also dispute that someone having a college degree makes them smarter than someone who doesn't, but that's a different conversation.

Cool Friend

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It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was interesting that he said that. With degree inflation everything seems to require degrees now. My boss won't even hire admin assistants that don't have a bachelor's degree.

I just looked up bank teller positions in my town (in Ohio) and both said High School Diploma plus at least one year in a customer service position, or a bachelor's degree. Both adds said Bachelor's degree preferred. So not quite entry level.

Here is some wording from a Huntington Bank ad:
Basic Qualifications
ē HS Diploma or GED
ē 1 year+ experience working with customers. Can include military service with administration, contracting, civil affairs, or similar experience
Or
ē Bachelor's degree
Preferred Qualifications
ē A Bachelor's Degree in a business related field is preferred, but not required

There is absolutely zero reason for someone to require a degree for a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.



Doesn't matter if there's zero reason, a lot of jobs will ask for a degree anyway, ostensibly as proof of "intelligence" or "stick-to-itness."  For example, none of the administrative jobs I've had in the past ten years involved skills I didn't already have in high school, yet every last one required a bachelor's degree (one that I had to go into debt to obtain).

JLee

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It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was interesting that he said that. With degree inflation everything seems to require degrees now. My boss won't even hire admin assistants that don't have a bachelor's degree.

I just looked up bank teller positions in my town (in Ohio) and both said High School Diploma plus at least one year in a customer service position, or a bachelor's degree. Both adds said Bachelor's degree preferred. So not quite entry level.

Here is some wording from a Huntington Bank ad:
Basic Qualifications
ē HS Diploma or GED
ē 1 year+ experience working with customers. Can include military service with administration, contracting, civil affairs, or similar experience
Or
ē Bachelor's degree
Preferred Qualifications
ē A Bachelor's Degree in a business related field is preferred, but not required

There is absolutely zero reason for someone to require a degree for a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.



Doesn't matter if there's zero reason, a lot of jobs will ask for a degree anyway, ostensibly as proof of "intelligence" or "stick-to-itness."  For example, none of the administrative jobs I've had in the past ten years involved skills I didn't already have in high school, yet every last one required a bachelor's degree (one that I had to go into debt to obtain).

I am aware of this, but in no way does that exclude said job from being entry level despite asking for a degree.

six-car-habit

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  ** on my point about there being a minimum wage for lowest level of Military service.  Looked up the 2019 pay tables. An E-1 enlisted , low skill soldier with less than 2 yrs in the job, makes $1680 / month  - that is 231 hrs of labor @ $7.25/hr.

  If they get BAH [ the housing allowance to live in town, beacuse of lack of base housing or married/ w dependents] -in my area - than BAH adds $1356 for themselves or $1701 w/ dependents. Or if they are on-base they get a roof , and running water , and heat , + a bunk, and TV and often some sort of "entertainment bldg" with video games + a library etc.

+ Small work clothing allowance annually. Food provided 3 meals a day on base, or extra food allowance in the paycheck, which i didn't find the rate tables -but it used to be several hundred $$ a month.  Medical benefit which i wont attempt to quantify in annual average costs.

 So the gov't supports the E-1 to the tune of 1680 base pay + 1356 [1701] housing or its equivalent+ 200 base food+ 300 medical = $3536/mo or $42,400 / yr minimum, and more if the soldier is married/ kids .  Working the math back @ $7.25 / hr the soldier would need to work ~490 hrs [ probably more] a month to support this lifestyle were they a minimum wage civilian getting paid by a business.

 From this math it makes it seem, to me , that the gov't is saying an adult, with minimal skills, on their own, needs nearly $40k annually  to be enticed to have a "mimimum" standard of living and work for them. And/or the avg cost for unskilled labor living a semi bare-bones lifestyle in my area is $40K. 

cloudsail

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Here's the other thing, when you're poor you have to hack stuff, not take the easiest solution. Four hundred something a month for after school care is about standard, which means it's organized center based care. That kind of thing was a huge luxury when I was young. My mom ran her own business so we never needed after school care, but I had a friend who came home with me every day because her parents both worked. Most of our friends who needed childcare did not go the organized route, because they are expensive.

I also never saw the inside of a restaurant until I was in my teens. A nice meal out was McDonald's. When my dad made a little more money we switched to A&W.

And what about reproduction? My mom didn't have another baby until they had enough to purchase their first home, even though that means there is a ten year age gap between my brother and me. And my brother slept in a shopping cart instead of a crib when he was a baby, I am not kidding.

When you are poor you have to live like you're poor to stay within your means, then do whatever you can to increase your income so you don't stay poor forever. That's basically what everyone on this forum does. If you choose to partake of middle class things while you are still poor, then say you don't have enough money, I'm sorry but I just don't have a lot of empathy for that.

Cool Friend

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It was quoted in the video that this position is an unskilled, high school graduate position.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought it was interesting that he said that. With degree inflation everything seems to require degrees now. My boss won't even hire admin assistants that don't have a bachelor's degree.

I just looked up bank teller positions in my town (in Ohio) and both said High School Diploma plus at least one year in a customer service position, or a bachelor's degree. Both adds said Bachelor's degree preferred. So not quite entry level.

Here is some wording from a Huntington Bank ad:
Basic Qualifications
ē HS Diploma or GED
ē 1 year+ experience working with customers. Can include military service with administration, contracting, civil affairs, or similar experience
Or
ē Bachelor's degree
Preferred Qualifications
ē A Bachelor's Degree in a business related field is preferred, but not required

There is absolutely zero reason for someone to require a degree for a bank teller.  I have done that before and it is not a complex job requiring any significant education.  I would say working as a cashier in a supermarket (I've done that too) is more demanding.



Doesn't matter if there's zero reason, a lot of jobs will ask for a degree anyway, ostensibly as proof of "intelligence" or "stick-to-itness."  For example, none of the administrative jobs I've had in the past ten years involved skills I didn't already have in high school, yet every last one required a bachelor's degree (one that I had to go into debt to obtain).

I am aware of this, but in no way does that exclude said job from being entry level despite asking for a degree.

Well yeah, anything can be "entry level" if it's the lowest starting position at a company, regardless of what credentials are being asked for.

wageslave23

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Here's the other thing, when you're poor you have to hack stuff, not take the easiest solution. Four hundred something a month for after school care is about standard, which means it's organized center based care. That kind of thing was a huge luxury when I was young. My mom ran her own business so we never needed after school care, but I had a friend who came home with me every day because her parents both worked. Most of our friends who needed childcare did not go the organized route, because they are expensive.

I also never saw the inside of a restaurant until I was in my teens. A nice meal out was McDonald's. When my dad made a little more money we switched to A&W.

And what about reproduction? My mom didn't have another baby until they had enough to purchase their first home, even though that means there is a ten year age gap between my brother and me. And my brother slept in a shopping cart instead of a crib when he was a baby, I am not kidding.


When you are poor you have to live like you're poor to stay within your means, then do whatever you can to increase your income so you don't stay poor forever. That's basically what everyone on this forum does. If you choose to partake of middle class things while you are still poor, then say you don't have enough money, I'm sorry but I just don't have a lot of empathy for that.

Not to mention just living in CA is a luxury. I cannot afford to live in CA or NYC, so I don't.  I don't live in IL for the weather!  Its because I can earn the most relative to my COL.

mathlete

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Not to mention just living in CA is a luxury. I cannot afford to live in CA or NYC, so I don't.  I don't live in IL for the weather!  Its because I can earn the most relative to my COL.

I am, at times, sympathetic to this argument. But Californians demand low skill labor so...

Here's the other thing, when you're poor you have to hack stuff, not take the easiest solution. Four hundred something a month for after school care is about standard, which means it's organized center based care. That kind of thing was a huge luxury when I was young. My mom ran her own business so we never needed after school care, but I had a friend who came home with me every day because her parents both worked. Most of our friends who needed childcare did not go the organized route, because they are expensive.

I also never saw the inside of a restaurant until I was in my teens. A nice meal out was McDonald's. When my dad made a little more money we switched to A&W.

And what about reproduction? My mom didn't have another baby until they had enough to purchase their first home, even though that means there is a ten year age gap between my brother and me. And my brother slept in a shopping cart instead of a crib when he was a baby, I am not kidding.

When you are poor you have to live like you're poor to stay within your means, then do whatever you can to increase your income so you don't stay poor forever. That's basically what everyone on this forum does. If you choose to partake of middle class things while you are still poor, then say you don't have enough money, I'm sorry but I just don't have a lot of empathy for that.

Do you ever muse on the fundamental brokenness of a world in which your brother had to sleep in a shopping cart?

cloudsail

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It is precisely because most people here don't come from money and didn't win the lottery or obtain our money through luck. When we were poor or our parents were poor or our grandparents were poor, who gave us handouts? I have a lot of empathy for people stuck in bad situations out of their control, like abused women or children, but not a lot for people who are where they are because the good decisions were hard.

This may be a little beyond the scope of discussion, but a whole lot of people who weren't actually poor "feel" like they were poor. This goes double for the bootstrappy personal finance crowd.

Just the other week we had someone who was the child of dual income land owners talking about growing up poor. That's just silly.

Of course, everyone is a unique situation and we all have reasons why we think our upbringing was super difficult, but as a blanket response to the people you describe, I'd tell them,

1.) You're not that poor
2.) Your parents probably got a lot of handouts

Obviously we're not talking about extreme poverty, because the situation in the original post is not extreme poverty.

And my point is actually that I don't think I had a difficult upbringing. A six year old doesn't care about sharing a room with her parents. Or what kind of car they drive. Or whether they eat out. The congresswoman was talking about a shared room like it's child abuse. These things that low income people have to do to survive are not terrible.

mathlete

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Obviously we're not talking about extreme poverty, because the situation in the original post is not extreme poverty.

And my point is actually that I don't think I had a difficult upbringing. A six year old doesn't care about sharing a room with her parents. Or what kind of car they drive. Or whether they eat out. The congresswoman was talking about a shared room like it's child abuse. These things that low income people have to do to survive are not terrible.

JPM posting 27% margins instead of 30% margins isn't terrible either.

accolay

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  ** on my point about there being a minimum wage for lowest level of Military service.  Looked up the 2019 pay tables. An E-1 enlisted , low skill soldier with less than 2 yrs in the job, makes $1680 / month  - that is 231 hrs of labor @ $7.25/hr.

It's hard to make a comparison though to civilian life- apples and oranges and all that. A lot of times I didn't feel like I got paid enough. I get this argument though. And I can attest that that can be true. But you're salaried in the military. If something happens you might have to put in more hours of work. If you're on deployment, you might be working a bit more than normal. I can't even imagine getting paid7.25/hr while in a combat situation- even with combat pay and or hazardous duty pay.
Most of my time in every six days was a duty day for 24 hours. When we were in dry dock we would rotate, but would have three day duty weekends- 72 hours, baby. If my equipment broke, there wasn't time off until it was fixed. If you're back in the middle of a deployment and say 9/11 goes down instead of liberty you might find your ass up on the port side with an M60 slung on your shoulder instead. When overseas, there were months where I didn't have a day off.

I make the argument that military pay used to be a lot worse. The GI Bill was the big carrot for me and frankly, it was awesome.

mm1970

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Not to mention just living in CA is a luxury. I cannot afford to live in CA or NYC, so I don't.  I don't live in IL for the weather!  Its because I can earn the most relative to my COL.

I am, at times, sympathetic to this argument. But Californians demand low skill labor so...

Here's the other thing, when you're poor you have to hack stuff, not take the easiest solution. Four hundred something a month for after school care is about standard, which means it's organized center based care. That kind of thing was a huge luxury when I was young. My mom ran her own business so we never needed after school care, but I had a friend who came home with me every day because her parents both worked. Most of our friends who needed childcare did not go the organized route, because they are expensive.

I also never saw the inside of a restaurant until I was in my teens. A nice meal out was McDonald's. When my dad made a little more money we switched to A&W.

And what about reproduction? My mom didn't have another baby until they had enough to purchase their first home, even though that means there is a ten year age gap between my brother and me. And my brother slept in a shopping cart instead of a crib when he was a baby, I am not kidding.

When you are poor you have to live like you're poor to stay within your means, then do whatever you can to increase your income so you don't stay poor forever. That's basically what everyone on this forum does. If you choose to partake of middle class things while you are still poor, then say you don't have enough money, I'm sorry but I just don't have a lot of empathy for that.

Do you ever muse on the fundamental brokenness of a world in which your brother had to sleep in a shopping cart?
I do!  Obv.

Living in CA is a luxury, until it's not.  Like if you grew up here, or don't have the money to move, or rely on family to help out, or are required by divorce or child custody agreements.

In fact, I live in a very expensive place in So. Cal.  I worked with a single mother for awhile.  She remarried.  Her husband got a job in the desert.

She was not allowed to move from our coastal area to the desert because of child custody agreements.  She was required to stay here (within a 2 hours drive of the father of the child), pay rent here, continue to work here, while her (new) husband lived and worked elsewhere.

In fact, after a court appearance once she mentioned that probably the *only* way she'd be allowed, by the court, to move to the cheaper area would be if she got laid off (she mentioned it casually, but did in fact get RIF'd a couple of weeks later, along with 25 % of the company.)  She now is allowed to live with her husband!

I grew up pretty poor, in a large family.  It's fascinating to see how the 9 of use grew up, and our own opinions of hard work and such.
First, there's a lot of "bootstraps!" (which is ridiculous if you look up what the term actually means).  But the "bootstraps" is mostly from the sibs without children.
Also, there's a lot of survivor bias, and lack of recognition of privilege.  Yes, we were poor.  Yes we worked very hard as did our parents.  However, our dad owned a home, we were able to have a garden, we had a MASSIVE extended family to rely on, we have a great deal of natural intelligence and lived in a safe area.

It's very hard for some people to get past the "well I did it, so anyone can" mentality.
Not that people shouldn't try.
But it's a tricky business and a sliding scale, and I think it's ridiculous that so many people cannot see that, or do not want to see that.

accolay

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Not to mention just living in CA is a luxury. I cannot afford to live in CA or NYC, so I don't.  I don't live in IL for the weather!  Its because I can earn the most relative to my COL.

Not to be rude, but I'm pretty sure most people without means in CA or other relative HCOL areas don't think everyday "I'll just take all of my average-American non-existent savings, pick ourselves up and move to a lower cost of living area where I don't have a job, nowhere to stay, don't know anybody, have no friends or family and start over.

I absolutely agree that most Americans could live better within their means and get some financial literacy, but you have to understand that most people are not the type of people on these forums, for good and for bad. Also consider that there are a lot of people working at the bottom who are really not able to work anything else. Those people should still be payed a living wage.

cloudsail

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Not to mention just living in CA is a luxury. I cannot afford to live in CA or NYC, so I don't.  I don't live in IL for the weather!  Its because I can earn the most relative to my COL.

I am, at times, sympathetic to this argument. But Californians demand low skill labor so...

Here's the other thing, when you're poor you have to hack stuff, not take the easiest solution. Four hundred something a month for after school care is about standard, which means it's organized center based care. That kind of thing was a huge luxury when I was young. My mom ran her own business so we never needed after school care, but I had a friend who came home with me every day because her parents both worked. Most of our friends who needed childcare did not go the organized route, because they are expensive.

I also never saw the inside of a restaurant until I was in my teens. A nice meal out was McDonald's. When my dad made a little more money we switched to A&W.

And what about reproduction? My mom didn't have another baby until they had enough to purchase their first home, even though that means there is a ten year age gap between my brother and me. And my brother slept in a shopping cart instead of a crib when he was a baby, I am not kidding.

When you are poor you have to live like you're poor to stay within your means, then do whatever you can to increase your income so you don't stay poor forever. That's basically what everyone on this forum does. If you choose to partake of middle class things while you are still poor, then say you don't have enough money, I'm sorry but I just don't have a lot of empathy for that.

Do you ever muse on the fundamental brokenness of a world in which your brother had to sleep in a shopping cart?

No, because I don't think sleeping in a crib is a right. Many things that we consider necessities are not, that's one of the main tenets of MMM.

accolay

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It's very hard for some people to get past the "well I did it, so anyone can" mentality.
Not that people shouldn't try.
But it's a tricky business and a sliding scale, and I think it's ridiculous that so many people cannot see that, or do not want to see that.

+1

mathlete

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No, because I don't think sleeping in a crib is a right. Many things that we consider necessities are not, that's one of the main tenets of MMM.

I don't know MMM, but I'd be extremely surprised if he would sanction, "Save money on cribs, put your baby in a shopping cart" as a good faith interpretation of his teachings.

I would love for him to weigh in on this.

cloudsail

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Obviously we're not talking about extreme poverty, because the situation in the original post is not extreme poverty.

And my point is actually that I don't think I had a difficult upbringing. A six year old doesn't care about sharing a room with her parents. Or what kind of car they drive. Or whether they eat out. The congresswoman was talking about a shared room like it's child abuse. These things that low income people have to do to survive are not terrible.

JPM posting 27% margins instead of 30% margins isn't terrible either.

If the shareholders got together and voted to cap the CEO's salary, great. The repercussions of that decision will then be subject to the forces of the free economy, to be changed or not.

If the government passes a law to cap the salaries of CEO's, not so great.

cloudsail

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No, because I don't think sleeping in a crib is a right. Many things that we consider necessities are not, that's one of the main tenets of MMM.

I don't know MMM, but I'd be extremely surprised if he would sanction, "Save money on cribs, put your baby in a shopping cart" as a good faith interpretation of his teachings.

I would love for him to weigh in on this.

Doesn't have to be a shopping cart, but if you are barely scraping by, there are many other alternatives to buying a crib for your baby. Nobody in my extended family except for the most recent generation slept in a crib.

JLee

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No, because I don't think sleeping in a crib is a right. Many things that we consider necessities are not, that's one of the main tenets of MMM.

I don't know MMM, but I'd be extremely surprised if he would sanction, "Save money on cribs, put your baby in a shopping cart" as a good faith interpretation of his teachings.

I would love for him to weigh in on this.

Doesn't have to be a shopping cart, but if you are barely scraping by, there are many other alternatives to buying a crib for your baby. Nobody in my extended family except for the most recent generation slept in a crib.

https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/zip/d/murrieta-crib/6860453760.html

Kyle Schuant

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ETA: I don't think the Department of Agriculture defines a low cost food budget as "Ramen Noodles".  I bit of a stretch there...
https://www.cnpp.usda.gov/sites/default/files/usda_food_plans_cost_of_food/FoodPlansRecipeBook.pdf

Pages 14-15. No ramen. I think it's of some public interest, because apparently the US govt uses the Thrifty Food Plan along with CPI data to determine food stamps allocation.

While googling around for that I came across this guy's account of trying to live like that. Of interest for people on this forum, he writes,

"Whether I spent $78.86 at my local grocery store or $42.60, I felt the same. How? When I compared my grocery bill from a normal week with one from my experiment, I saw many more impulse buys: vegan ice cream, kale chips, exotic fruits. Nothing that I needed to surviveÖ probably nothing I needed at all. About half the "extra" food went to waste. "

He goes on to talk about how this won't help people who need to work multiple jobs to pay for things, and who thus won't have time to cook, etc - so he's not an idiot.


I think whether we're looking at frugality or health, the advice given is often confusing, especially since it can come from different government departments and non-profit groups, for example this advice comes from the ChooseMyPlate website. This advice and that advice may both be good, but they're different, and that's confusing. When confused, we don't change what we're doing.

Bloop Bloop

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I donít think it was suggested that everyone has to move.  This employee chooses to live alone in their own apartment, spend too much on an oversized vehicle(for her), eat fabulous food, and still run a deficit.  For someone with those needs, maybe they need to find another location, figure out how to make more money, or just run up CC debt. Thatís the employees choice.

I lived with roommates until I was married.  There would be plenty of eager, unattached, HS educated people who could easily make this work. Plus, at close to 17/hour, plenty of attached, partnered, married, or other people that would be sharing housing that could take this job.

On a macroeconomic scale, are we just saying that huge portions of the country, including our largest job centers like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, New York, and Austin are off limits to median income single mothers?

Congresswoman Porter was not actually asking Dimon to solve one single mother's financial woes. She was illustrating a market failure. A market that demands low skill workers, but does not pay them high enough wages, is a market failure. There are ways to address this failure that don't include the mass exodus of single mothers from urban job centers.

Remember, this job pays more than 5k net cash than MMM budget for his family. 

MMM is incredibly wealthy. Wealthy people have options available to them that poor people do not. And his published low spending does not truly capture the cost of his lifestyle. It's meant as an illustration of how people of means can hack the system, live on less, and build wealth. It's not guideline for single mothers.

She's a median single income mother who spends like a family of four. She needs to do better. It's not "hacking the system" - it's called being financially responsible and not having a $40 cell phone plan when a $16 plan will do, and not driving a really expensive car when there are alternatives.

mathlete

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https://www.cbpp.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/11-28-11povf2.png

Income and wealth inequality has widened in the United State by massive margins since the 1970s. Jamie Dimon heads a bank that brings in $100bn in revenue a year. He himself makes $28 million in salary, and much more in options compensation. JP Morgan spends millions a year on lobbying, and they will be the beneficiaries of an indefinite cut in the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%.

This doesn't make them bad or evil, but with her short time commanding Dimon's attention, the congresswoman asked him to consider what role he and his company play in exacerbating inequality. I think that is a tremendously good use of congressional time.

It breaks my heart to see how quickly we reduce this to a discussion about whether a poor single mother, real or hypothetical, could do with a used sedan instead of a used minivan, or whether the congresswoman's use of the the phrase "ramen diet" was appropriate or inappropriate.

What really breaks my heart though, is how we use all the frugality we've learned against the less fortunate. And above all, the appeals to MMM to do so. Pete Adney is a wealthy man. He grew up privileged, and made an extremely high income for all of his short working career. His annual spending numbers (to the extent that they actually capture the lifestyle he leads) are him playing make believe. He does not, and will never know what it is to be poor. I think he has the wisdom to realize that, and it would be tremendously helpful if he communicated that to his acolytes.

Bloop Bloop

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The reason a lot of us aren't particularly taken with the woman's plight is that we don't like non-frugal spending which then requires extra-market-based correction, i.e., welfare.

The lady spends about the same as I do yet I earn 4 times as much. Sooner or later I'll be asked to fork out more tax to pay for welfare for people like her, thus deferring my own, well-earned retirement. I'm not saying I don't want to fund welfare at all - but there's a line between truly needed welfare and gratuitous welfare. If a single mother can spend $35k USD a year, that's gratuitous. It's a huge figure, one that I have to really try in order to be able to spend.

I agree with you that some CEO salaries are obscene - but that's another matter.