The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: jprince7827 on October 10, 2014, 11:44:47 AM
-
Guys, I make 150k a year, and I stash 51% of my income, which comes out to 3500-4000$/month. And here comes this Model S, it's only 1,000$/month and it's gorgeous. I want one so badly.
Yet, I only use my beat up 2004 Grand Am maybe once every two weeks, my fiance uses it regularly but not to go very far. It's in good condition, and I own it entirely.
BUT I WANT ONE.
I know 1,000$/month is basically rent, and for a car that's stupid. You should never have a car payment, period.
BUT I WANT IT.
Please, help talk me out of this. My head is spinning from it's Gloriousness. And my Fiance is no help, she wants to drive something that's not ten years old. I need support guys.
There aren't AA meetings for this kinda thing. ;)
-
Just tell yourself to wait for the Model ≡, and then don't get it. Delay, delay, delay.
I want one too :(
-
A year prior to ER'ing, I had a very strong desire to buy a BMW M3. My wife and I were both working at this point, and with our monthly dividends added in, were were saving over 10k every month. But such a move would have torpedoed my ER. A facepunch would not have been sufficent if I had bought that car. A hard kick in the nards would have been deserved.
And in my humble opinion, thats what you deserve if you buy that Tesla. :)
Don't know much about you Jprince, if retiring early is a priority for you. But I chose ER over buying cool things that I could easily afford, and I can tell you that no car can bring the daily joy that FIRE can. Trust me.
-
It won't stop at just a Tesla.
First a Tesla.
Then a personalized (Vanity) license plate. I've seen a few Tesla's lately, they all say something like LCTRC or NOGAS. This is a must.
Then you'll be buying car wax and getting it detailed.
God forbid it gets scratched. New paint job.
Slippery slope my friend. We might have to pull your mustache card.
-
-It's an awesome car. It would be a lot easier if we could just tell you...ugh that car stinks just don't buy it. But alas, yes it is awesome.
-BUT...You don't need one. You drive once every 2 weeks!
-It will not surprise me if like most luxury cars the ability to rent one materializes soon (depending on where you live). Even if it's $500 a day to rent one, doing that once every few months would be a 'better' use of your money. you drive 1 day every 2 weeks! your 'per day' cost is $500 per month anyway. Try and hold on.
-
Just wondering, if you were to pull the trigger... why go with the monthly payment instead of just buying it outright?
They are awesome cars.
-
And here's me who's been delaying gratifaction of buying a $36 rockibilly shirt for about a year now. I do really want that damn shirt though. Maybe this is the month?
Let me ask you a question: Will the Model S Tesla be just as cool a year from now?
-
Just wondering, if you were to pull the trigger... why go with the monthly payment instead of just buying it outright?
They are awesome cars.
My net worth is 115k...to buy this car outright would wipe me out.
And yeah, I just keep saying that in my mind: Nothing drives as well as having the entire day to myself...every day.
-
I will dissent and say, Model D (AWD baby!) for the win! And the new top model doing 0-60 in not much over 3seconds? Sheeeeeee, yeuh!
If you're serious about the car and saving that much each month, budget a portion for the car and go buy it cash in a handful of months.
And make sure you live somewhere with charging stations or have the ability to run 220v to a high speed charger.
-
I live in Chicago, so there are plenty of chargers around. I think I might plan to get myself one of the 2010 editions in like 5 years when I'm half-way to RE, and it's cheap.
But God, if there was any machine on Earth designed to so tickle a Mustachian's fancy, Tesla is it.
-
I own Tesla...in the form of Stocks. I'm very satisfied with that purchase. I bought some shares over a period of time between when the stock was trading between $25-$45. Then in mid-2013 that baby just took off! Even though it's down quite a bit today, I'm still sitting quite pretty with my initial investments.
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
-
My net worth is 115k...to buy this car outright would wipe me out.
That is a very good reason not to buy it, regardless of how you pay for it.
-
I own Tesla...in the form of Stocks. I'm very satisfied with that purchase. I bought some shares over a period of time between when the stock was trading between $25-$45. Then in mid-2013 that baby just took off! Even though it's down quite a bit today, I'm still sitting quite pretty with my initial investments.
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
I wish I had had the kind of money necessary in mid-2013 to have done that - Tesla is a good investment, like the Google of cars. I had a buddy who did and made 250k off it. I didn't start making real money till about mid 2013, prior to that only had about 30k to my name. I had only seen the light in January 2013.
-
At the other end of the spectrum, I love the idea of an EV since I drive so little as-is (typically under 300 miles a month, rarely over 40 miles in a single day) but cheap used cars are so freaking cheap compared to even the least expensive EVs. Basically the Nissan Leaf is the cheapest one I can find, and of course you're basically limited to buying locally due to the range. $12,500 seems to be the minimum point of entry. Meanwhile I can get a very nice condition 10-year old Prius for $7000 or a "so-so" condition 10-year old compact car for $3500. Under no circumstances can I currently buy an EV and have it benefit my finances because EVs are all so new and limited in quantity to begin with.
Now in another 10 years? I do not at all rule out that something like Leaf, Focus EV, or Chevy Volt will be $6000 in another 10 years, especially if gas continues to hang out in the $3 or $4/gallon range. But for now, I too wish for an electric car but will continue to settle for crappy compact cars that get the job done just as effectively at a much lower 10-year cost. I really like the MMM guide of looking at things in terms of what it will cost you over 10 years. That really gets to the heart of the issue for someone looking to maximize their long term financials.
-
I own Tesla...in the form of Stocks. I'm very satisfied with that purchase. I bought some shares over a period of time between when the stock was trading between $25-$45. Then in mid-2013 that baby just took off! Even though it's down quite a bit today, I'm still sitting quite pretty with my initial investments.
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
^ I think the same thing about my Apple stock after listening to my SIL basically talking about "her apple" and how she needs to upgrade all the time. I really enjoy my visits at her house while laughing all the way to the bank.
-
Slightly off topic but my friend that works there bought my son a onsie that says "Tesla" on the front and on the back across the shoulders "0 Emissions" And on the back across the butt "Almost..."
-
Slightly off topic but my friend that works there bought my son a onsie that says "Tesla" on the front and on the back across the shoulders "0 Emissions" And on the back across the butt "Almost..."
+1.
-
Slightly off topic but my friend that works there bought my son a onsie that says "Tesla" on the front and on the back across the shoulders "0 Emissions" And on the back across the butt "Almost..."
Damn it, now I want one of those.
-
NW of 115k ? I'm wondering if this is a troll post. Could any one really be that stu - er, misinformed? Really man, do you know what website you are on? ;)
-
Why don't you wait on the Tesla, buy one used down the line, replace the battery, and still have an amazing car?
Or- buy a new one in a number of years when it makes even more sense?
-
I own Tesla...in the form of Stocks. I'm very satisfied with that purchase. I bought some shares over a period of time between when the stock was trading between $25-$45. Then in mid-2013 that baby just took off! Even though it's down quite a bit today, I'm still sitting quite pretty with my initial investments.
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
I wish I had had the kind of money necessary in mid-2013 to have done that - Tesla is a good investment, like the Google of cars. I had a buddy who did and made 250k off it. I didn't start making real money till about mid 2013, prior to that only had about 30k to my name. I had only seen the light in January 2013.
Oh I wish I would have had more to invest at the time as well. I didn't invest a big amount by any means. Hindsight is always 20/20. I put in a total of about $3,000 over about a one-year period with an average cost of $34 per share. So lately my total investment in TSLA has been sitting between $20-$25k for the past few months. I have a very nice return on that but not nearly as much as I could have had if I was more aggressive.
I still prefer to keep most of my investments in our MMM-approved mutual funds but I do allocate a little bit to dabble in individual stocks. Even with that money though, I still do my research and pick stocks in good companies I believe in or have a strong history (like Tesla, Coke, Proctor & Gamble, Google, etc). When I was a wide-eyed young novice investor 5 or 6 years ago, I got burned playing a fool's game by buying and selling cheap speculative stocks and loading up on certain REITs simply b/c they paid monthly dividends with annual dividends north of 12%. My REITs tanked and those cheap stocks never did anything so I wised up and stopped screwing around and re-focused my goals.
-
NW of 115k ? I'm wondering if this is a troll post. Could any one really be that stu - er, misinformed? Really man, do you know what website you are on? ;)
Sorry Jon, I've only been officially saving at a Mustachian level since January of 2013. I started with a NW of 10k then and now it's well over 10x that. Not a troll, just beginning the journey. :)
-
I own Tesla...in the form of Stocks. I'm very satisfied with that purchase. I bought some shares over a period of time between when the stock was trading between $25-$45. Then in mid-2013 that baby just took off! Even though it's down quite a bit today, I'm still sitting quite pretty with my initial investments.
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
I wish I had had the kind of money necessary in mid-2013 to have done that - Tesla is a good investment, like the Google of cars. I had a buddy who did and made 250k off it. I didn't start making real money till about mid 2013, prior to that only had about 30k to my name. I had only seen the light in January 2013.
Oh I wish I would have had more to invest at the time as well. I didn't invest a big amount by any means. Hindsight is always 20/20. I put in a total of about $3,000 over about a one-year period with an average cost of $34 per share. So lately my total investment in TSLA has been sitting between $20-$25k for the past few months. I have a very nice return on that but not nearly as much as I could have had if I was more aggressive.
I still prefer to keep most of my investments in our MMM-approved mutual funds but I do allocate a little bit to dabble in individual stocks. Even with that money though, I still do my research and pick stocks in good companies I believe in or have a strong history (like Tesla, Coke, Proctor & Gamble, Google, etc). When I was a wide-eyed young novice investor 5 or 6 years ago, I got burned playing a fool's game by buying and selling cheap speculative stocks and loading up on certain REITs simply b/c they paid monthly dividends with annual dividends north of 12%. My REITs tanked and those cheap stocks never did anything so I wised up and stopped screwing around and re-focused my goals.
That's almost worse - having put in only a little and seeing what you could've made! Yeah I took 2k and invested it in stocks in January 2013 to play with and now it's worth 1700...a cheap lesson in how bad my nose is for individual stocks!
-
If your net worth is 115k, I don't think you are wealthy enough to own one. Sorry.
-
Everyone wants a tesla. They're sexy as fuck.
-
You don't deserve one YET.
-
Everyone wants a tesla. They're sexy as fuck.
+1
-
The Tesla S is a piece of shit.
It does these 3 things:
- Transport you and up to three other people from one place to another.
- Look pretty.
- Relieve you of your money.
It literally does NOTHING ELSE worthwhile. It is pretty much the most unmustachian vehicle I can think of. As a grocery-getter and commuter, it's a fail because you should be using your bicycle for these things anyway. Or at least a car that costs 1/50th of a Tesla. It can't be used to haul larger items that can't fit on a bike or bike trailer because it's just a passenger car and doesn't have appreciable cargo space. It can't be used for road trips because it only goes 200 miles (if you're lucky) in between lengthy charges.
When I see somebody driving a Tesla, I don't see someone who is well-to-do, good-looking, or trendy. I see a person who is weak, easily influenced by marketing and peers, has poor self-control, and doesn't make rational decisions in their own best interests.
I want to applaud Tesla for bringing the first successful all-electric vehicle to the U.S. market. But I can't bring myself to sing their praises when even their "for the unwashed masses" version is going to be in the BMW luxury sports-car price range instead of the Toyota Prius price range.
-
You can't afford a Tesla yet. Go look at something sensible, like a nice late-model Mustang or a Camaro.
-
I'm glad to support tesla with my quarterly checks to the US treasury
-
I have to agree with the poster who said you don't deserve one yet. Read this post for reference:
http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/
If Financial Samurai can't afford a $100,000 quickly depreciating, trendy hipster car than neither can you.
-
The Tesla S is a piece of shit.
What??? While not an investment, or a practical form of transportation for most, it is awesome design, engineering and marketing. And a FU to a shoddy monopolistic industry. Given enough NW i'd love one, although I doubt I'll trade the time to get there.
Also, there are many (most?) more expensive, ostentatious, unmustachian supercars out there.
-
The Tesla S is a piece of shit.
It does these 3 things:
- Transport you and up to three other people from one place to another.
- Look pretty.
- Relieve you of your money.
It literally does NOTHING ELSE worthwhile. It is pretty much the most unmustachian vehicle I can think of. As a grocery-getter and commuter, it's a fail because you should be using your bicycle for these things anyway. Or at least a car that costs 1/50th of a Tesla. It can't be used to haul larger items that can't fit on a bike or bike trailer because it's just a passenger car and doesn't have appreciable cargo space. It can't be used for road trips because it only goes 200 miles (if you're lucky) in between lengthy charges.
When I see somebody driving a Tesla, I don't see someone who is well-to-do, good-looking, or trendy. I see a person who is weak, easily influenced by marketing and peers, has poor self-control, and doesn't make rational decisions in their own best interests.
I want to applaud Tesla for bringing the first successful all-electric vehicle to the U.S. market. But I can't bring myself to sing their praises when even their "for the unwashed masses" version is going to be in the BMW luxury sports-car price range instead of the Toyota Prius price range.
This is hands-down the best explanation for why not to buy one I've heard yet. Thank you, it wiped out all my Tesla urges for the day.
-
I'm glad to support tesla with my quarterly checks to the US treasury
Agreed. Sadly, this is a way we subsidize the rich with our taxes. These vehicles are not affordable to the common person. Where's my bike subsidy? (note that I actually disagree with the concept of subsidies altogether)
I have to agree with the poster who said you don't deserve one yet. Read this post for reference:
http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/
If Financial Samurai can't afford a $100,000 quickly depreciating, trendy hipster car than neither can you.
And Financial Samurai is (IMO) very spendy. If he says you shouldn't buy something, you most definitely shouldn't!
-
Slightly off topic but my friend that works there bought my son a onsie that says "Tesla" on the front and on the back across the shoulders "0 Emissions" And on the back across the butt "Almost..."
Damn it, now I want one of those.
I have zero desire to own a Tesla car, but I want to buy Tesla onsie!
First day I sent him to daycare in it I couldn't wait to read the little report at the end of the day. He shit himself 3 times I laughed and was so very proud at the same time. The woman at daycare even gave me a high 5 cause she appreciated the onsie as much as I did.
-
I have to agree with the poster who said you don't deserve one yet. Read this post for reference:
http://www.financialsamurai.com/the-110th-rule-for-car-buying-everyone-must-follow/
If Financial Samurai can't afford a $100,000 quickly depreciating, trendy hipster car than neither can you.
That's a great rule, and article. Thanks.
-
Agreed. Sadly, this is a way we subsidize the rich with our taxes. These vehicles are not affordable to the common person. Where's my bike subsidy? (note that I actually disagree with the concept of subsidies altogether)
Oh not this crap again. Sorry, but the rich are the ones who subsidize the rest of us. The top 1% pays 37% of all personal income tax and their activities are the ones that cause businesses to pay the majority of business income taxes. Stop pretending you're a victim while you use all the government services that somebody else paid for you to enjoy. When you're FI and living off $25k/year with a paid off home you'll be enjoying all those same government services while basically not even contributing a thing aside from minimal sales taxes and a little bit of property tax.
The members of this board are far, far and away the biggest leeches once they are financially independent. It is only because 99% of people don't reach FI before age 60 that the workers of the world even have the ability to sustain the rest of us taking services without paying into the system. Seriously, enjoy it while it lasts and stop bitching about the ones who are paying for you.
-
NW of 115k ? I'm wondering if this is a troll post. Could any one really be that stu - er, misinformed? Really man, do you know what website you are on? ;)
Sorry Jon, I've only been officially saving at a Mustachian level since January of 2013. I started with a NW of 10k then and now it's well over 10x that. Not a troll, just beginning the journey. :)
I'm not sure annual expenses of $50k count as a Mustachian level :-)
-
Agreed. Sadly, this is a way we subsidize the rich with our taxes. These vehicles are not affordable to the common person. Where's my bike subsidy? (note that I actually disagree with the concept of subsidies altogether)
Oh not this crap again. Sorry, but the rich are the ones who subsidize the rest of us. The top 1% pays 37% of all personal income tax and their activities are the ones that cause businesses to pay the majority of business income taxes. Stop pretending you're a victim while you use all the government services that somebody else paid for you to enjoy. When you're FI and living off $25k/year with a paid off home you'll be enjoying all those same government services while basically not even contributing a thing aside from minimal sales taxes and a little bit of property tax.
The members of this board are far, far and away the biggest leeches once they are financially independent. It is only because 99% of people don't reach FI before age 60 that the workers of the world even have the ability to sustain the rest of us taking services without paying into the system. Seriously, enjoy it while it lasts and stop bitching about the ones who are paying for you.
I would be fine with a fair flat income tax, regardless of level of income (I would actually prefer a tax on consumption instead). I have a problem with a huge government subsidy for a luxury vehicle (which a Tesla most definitely is) that is not even affordable for the common person. It's like a subsidy for luxury yachts. How is it remotely fair? The tax system in America is messed up.
As far as financial independence, I will have hundreds of thousands dollars invested in thousands of companies when I FIRE, allowing them to employ more people and grow the economy. If I had my money under a mattress that would be different, but it's invested in the American economy, helping it grow. Kind of the opposite of "leeching", don't you think?
I would love to know what these "government services I enjoy" are. Thousands of dollars are ripped from my paycheck towards "social security", which will be bankrupt by the time I am eligible to receive it, and the money which I could have invested far better myself. I don't need government in my health insurance (Obamacare increased my costs). My bike does almost zero damage to a road, so I don't need road maintenance. I don't need unemployment - I have savings for that. The only legitimate government service I receive is police and fire protection, and that shouldn't cost me tens of thousands a year in taxes.
-
Tesla repaid its government loans. The US government invested in tech and manufacturing and then got their money returned once the investment was successful. The US does that a lot. The same battery tech will percolate downwards; Tesla sells luxury vehicles first to build the brand and jump into a high-margin business; a low-margin high-volume business will follow.
The idiocy in this thread is astounding.
"social security", which will be bankrupt by the time I am eligible to receive it
No, it really won't. People will yell and whine for a while and then the retirement age will raise slightly and so on; it's not going to go insolvent.
I don't need government in my health insurance (Obamacare increased my costs)
Well, fuck other people then, they can die. I hope you never get sick and lose your job, that sure would suck.
My bike does almost zero damage to a road, so I don't need road maintenance.
This is possibly the most stupid thing you said - literally every thing you own requires road infrastructure. Minerals and metals were mined using tools delivered by road. They were sent places by road. They were processed and metal stock and so on was sent by road. That was milled, stamped, and cast, and products were sent by road. People used roads to get to these places so they could design and build everything. Jesus christ, this is so stupid I'm trying not to laugh. What the fuck are you going to do, ride your bike through the forest? Where are the replacement parts going to come from - airdropped to your house?
I don't need unemployment - I have savings for that. The only legitimate government service I receive is police and fire protection, and that shouldn't cost me tens of thousands a year in taxes.
I love this juxtaposition. You know what happens when people are hungry and jobless? They come and take your stuff. You pay for unemployment not so you can enjoy it yourself - though maybe you will - but so the unemployed don't start starving. Remember, they're not going to quietly die in their apartments where you can stand off to the side and sniff, "Good, they should have saved." You pay for social infrastructure so that you spend 10% of your income, not 100% and the rest of your belongings.
-
I also really want one. But it's $100k...for a car. You are an adult; you're more responsible than that.
Just wait for the "mass market" one. By that time, maybe you'll have saved enough that the ~$40k, while still way too much for a car, will be at least forgiveable.
-
(http://cdn.motinetwork.net/motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1007/nikola-tesla-nikola-tesla-electricity-gangster-history-demotivational-poster-1278216588.jpg)
-
I never knew about these cars so I just took a look. Unless I missed it, this is only available in a 4 door model? Really? I don't care how fancy pants or quick it is, that right there ruins it for me.
-
- Transport you and up to three other people from one place to another.
The Model S seats up to seven people...
-
Find yourself the best original model Honda Insight out there, (probably $5-6K maximum) and pimp it out if you must.
You then got your electric car fix, and even trying hard you probably can't spend over $9k total (and that's really setting your sights high on pimping it!) doing it, and it'll last you just as long as the Tesla.
-
Tesla repaid its government loans. The US government invested in tech and manufacturing and then got their money returned once the investment was successful. The US does that a lot. The same battery tech will percolate downwards; Tesla sells luxury vehicles first to build the brand and jump into a high-margin business; a low-margin high-volume business will follow.
Maybe the subsidy in question is the individual tax credit for buying the car.
http://www.teslamotors.com/incentives/US
-
My net worth is 115k...to buy this car outright would wipe me out.
I don't understand this: wouldn't making a debt for the whole price also have the same impact, plus interest?
-
BUT I WANT ONE.
Why would you want anything that's going to look outdated, not cool, and boring 2 to 3 years from now, while you still pay for it, one way or another? Even assuming it's cool now (actually to me it looks quite a boring design compared to european cars, electric or not), it's definitely not going to be soon. Look at the prius: I remember when it came out and everybody *had* to have one, and my company's parking lot was like a prius retailer. Now my company's parking lot is like a tesla retailer, and 3 years from now it will be something else. It's even less justifiable than buying a new iphone every year (and I don't do either, of course).
-
BUT I WANT ONE.
Why would you want anything that's going to look outdated, not cool, and boring 2 to 3 years from now, while you still pay for it, one way or another? Even assuming it's cool now (actually to me it looks quite a boring design compared to european cars, electric or not), it's definitely not going to be soon. Look at the prius: I remember when it came out and everybody *had* to have one, and my company's parking lot was like a prius retailer. Now my company's parking lot is like a tesla retailer, and 3 years from now it will be something else. It's even less justifiable than buying a new iphone every year (and I don't do either, of course).
He "wants one" like a little kid wants that new shiny toy they see on tv while watching cartoons. It doesn't matter that he'll likely never get one, it's just that his brain has that "want" it's focusing on right now. That's a very powerful thing for a person to get control of mentally, and turn it towards something in their life that would be a better choice.
-
Guys, I make 150k a year, and I stash 51% of my income, which comes out to 3500-4000$/month. And here comes this Model S, it's only 1,000$/month and it's gorgeous. I want one so badly.
Yet, I only use my beat up 2004 Grand Am maybe once every two weeks, my fiance uses it regularly but not to go very far. It's in good condition, and I own it entirely.
BUT I WANT ONE.
I know 1,000$/month is basically rent, and for a car that's stupid. You should never have a car payment, period.
BUT I WANT IT.
Please, help talk me out of this. My head is spinning from it's Gloriousness. And my Fiance is no help, she wants to drive something that's not ten years old. I need support guys.
There aren't AA meetings for this kinda thing. ;)
You have spending issues already, and a stupid 100k car would be right in line.
I make ~95K and I save ~$5000/mo.
$1000 in rent is "basically rent" ??
Last time I paid rent, it was $650.
Now it's ~$250 after all expenses, after "roomates" living expenses share of house I own.
If you're already retired, and you can buy it and still afford retirement, then go for it.
Otherwise, no. Simple as that.
-
I want one too, but I'm never going to own one. At least not the luxury ones - maybe when they come out with a lower cost model, then that lower cost model becomes used, then I buy one.
There are lots of things I want, but won't buy. No matter how awesome they are (and the Tesla is pretty awesome). When I get really coveting I start looking at things like fancy sailboats (another thing I won't every buy even if I can afford it).
That said, I can see myself buying an EV when our little Accent dies in about 5-9 years.
-
For the same money or less you could get a very low mileage Ferrari, like a 2007 430. This is a far more interesting car than the Tesla and if you are putting very few miles on it, it could even appreciate in value. But I wouldn't let your gf drive it!
-
For the same money or less you could get a very low mileage Ferrari, like a 2007 430. This is a far more interesting car than the Tesla and if you are putting very few miles on it, it could even appreciate in value. But I wouldn't let your gf drive it!
Ummmm... why not?
There's a reason insurance rates are lower for women. And it's not because we drive cheaper cars.
-
Tesla repaid its government loans. The US government invested in tech and manufacturing and then got their money returned once the investment was successful. The US does that a lot. The same battery tech will percolate downwards; Tesla sells luxury vehicles first to build the brand and jump into a high-margin business; a low-margin high-volume business will follow.
I was talking specifically about the tax credits, though I also have a big problem with the government subsidies. What guarantee is there of Tesla's future low-margin business? And why should taxpayers have to bet on that business taking off? I thought this was free enterprise, yet we have a heavily government-supported company (more "Government Motors" than even GM) that would not exist without governmental help, making luxury vehicles for the rich. Even the "consumer" version will start at $35K. I've never spent more than $4K for a car, and don't even own one now.
The rest is off-topic, but I'll respond just to clarify my thinking to you. I found it quite revealing that you think more government is the only resolution to societal problems, particularly when in many cases it actually encourages those problems to continue.
"social security", which will be bankrupt by the time I am eligible to receive it
No, it really won't. People will yell and whine for a while and then the retirement age will raise slightly and so on; it's not going to go insolvent.
Doesn't change the fact that I am being forced to contribute to a horribly inefficient program, because most people can't conceive of saving for their retirement. Why should I need to pay into this horrible program because others can't plan ahead? Yet I have no choice in the matter.
I don't need government in my health insurance (Obamacare increased my costs)
Well, fuck other people then, they can die. I hope you never get sick and lose your job, that sure would suck.
Sure would suck. I would take full responsibility for it though. Also plenty of charities out there, and family and friends. I don't need to go begging to the government. I know - a shocking idea that I don't view the government as my last resort.
My bike does almost zero damage to a road, so I don't need road maintenance.
This is possibly the most stupid thing you said - literally every thing you own requires road infrastructure. Minerals and metals were mined using tools delivered by road. They were sent places by road. They were processed and metal stock and so on was sent by road. That was milled, stamped, and cast, and products were sent by road. People used roads to get to these places so they could design and build everything. Jesus christ, this is so stupid I'm trying not to laugh. What the fuck are you going to do, ride your bike through the forest? Where are the replacement parts going to come from - airdropped to your house?
Can you conceive of privately constructed roads? Or is bloated, inefficient government the only way something can get done? And yes, I CAN ride my bike through the forest. ;) Regardless, road maintenance is a fraction of total spending, so it's not even a big deal compared to entitlements, and it can be argued as a national security issue. This is minor compared to other spending. My point was that I pay far more in taxes on roads than I will ever use. Truck transportation is a small fraction of automobile usage compared to people driving their clown cars, deteriorating the roads. Essentially, I'm subsidizing other people's wasteful driving.
I don't need unemployment - I have savings for that. The only legitimate government service I receive is police and fire protection, and that shouldn't cost me tens of thousands a year in taxes.
I love this juxtaposition. You know what happens when people are hungry and jobless? They come and take your stuff. You pay for unemployment not so you can enjoy it yourself - though maybe you will - but so the unemployed don't start starving. Remember, they're not going to quietly die in their apartments where you can stand off to the side and sniff, "Good, they should have saved." You pay for social infrastructure so that you spend 10% of your income, not 100% and the rest of your belongings.
Maybe I'll take responsibility for my own actions? If I become hungry and jobless, it's my own responsibility to take care of myself (to find work and food), between that and the relationships I cultivate in my life. Why should I be forced by the government to pay for "job insurance" I don't want? I don't need to go begging to the government. There's also plenty of private organizations (which I myself donate my time to) which help people in need.
I amazes me how people think the government is not only responsible for directly manipulating the economy (in the case of Tesla), but for taking care of people. Can't people take some personal responsibility? Isn't that what Mustachianism is all about - taking responsibility for your own actions and improving your own lives? I don't see MMM advocating living on welfare, even if it would sustain his current standard of living just fine. The problem is that too many people view the government as the provider, rather than everyday citizens directly helping people in need. A lot of people need help out there, and there's more efficient ways to do it than governmental programs. It all starts with you.
-
Guys, I make 150k a year, and I stash 51% of my income, which comes out to 3500-4000$/month. And here comes this Model S, it's only 1,000$/month and it's gorgeous. I want one so badly.
Yet, I only use my beat up 2004 Grand Am maybe once every two weeks, my fiance uses it regularly but not to go very far. It's in good condition, and I own it entirely.
BUT I WANT ONE.
I know 1,000$/month is basically rent, and for a car that's stupid. You should never have a car payment, period.
BUT I WANT IT.
Please, help talk me out of this. My head is spinning from it's Gloriousness. And my Fiance is no help, she wants to drive something that's not ten years old. I need support guys.
There aren't AA meetings for this kinda thing. ;)
You have spending issues already, and a stupid 100k car would be right in line.
I make ~95K and I save ~$5000/mo.
$1000 in rent is "basically rent" ??
Last time I paid rent, it was $650.
Now it's ~$250 after all expenses, after "roomates" living expenses share of house I own.
If you're already retired, and you can buy it and still afford retirement, then go for it.
Otherwise, no. Simple as that.
1000$/mo in Chicago is pretty cheap rent.
As for my having spending problems, you betcha. I could do much better than 51%. When I read these forums I feel like a spendthrift wackjob. Which is why I read them - to get inspired to slash more. :D
-
I would rather just play if off like I don't have 4k/month in disposable income. People will just get jealous and resent you if you buy a Tesla in most places
-
Everyone wants a tesla. They're sexy as fuck.
+1 including me, and I definitely don't drive enough to warrant it. I am waiting for their 3rd gen to come out to get rid of the car that I got when I got my driver's license.
-
Wait until you're FI, then buy one.
It'll be all the sweeter then, as you'll know you've earnt it :)
-
Model S comes standard with a forward looking camera, radar, and 360-degree ultrasonic sensors that actively monitor the surrounding roadway. Progressive software updates over time will enable sophisticated safety and convenience features that use these sensors to respond to real world conditions. Safety features include systems that warn drivers of potential hazards and help avoid or lessen the impacts of collisions. Convenience features include everyday driving maneuvers that reduce driver workload, such as traffic aware cruise control and automatic parking.
A. How do we build a car with the maximum number of things that can break?
B. How do we make a car for people who consider driving in a luxury car something with a "workload"?
At least bedpans are cheap!
-
I prefer antique american muscle cars. Fun to drive... look and sound way cool too. Almost all models cost way less than this 4 door sedan. Fuel mileage sucks, but that matters little when you're only driving a few thousand miles a year and your car is holding, or increasing in value... instead of depreciating with the quickness like this new Tesla will. Buying one of these is money down the drain. No way I would do it.
-
Model S comes standard with a forward looking camera, radar, and 360-degree ultrasonic sensors that actively monitor the surrounding roadway. Progressive software updates over time will enable sophisticated safety and convenience features that use these sensors to respond to real world conditions. Safety features include systems that warn drivers of potential hazards and help avoid or lessen the impacts of collisions. Convenience features include everyday driving maneuvers that reduce driver workload, such as traffic aware cruise control and automatic parking.
A. How do we build a car with the maximum number of things that can break?
B. How do we make a car for people who consider driving in a luxury car something with a "workload"?
At least bedpans are cheap!
Regarding your first point, Teslas have far fewer parts than a traditional internal combustion engine car due to the electric motor(s). They also don't require oil changes, timing belt replacements, etc. because of this. In a decade or two from now, this should make Teslas (or another similar style) amongst the more mustachian of choices.
Regarding the second, these are safety features as much as anything else. Autonomous driving should be much safer than a human driving and Tesla is able to update their cars with more safety features as the government allows them. Even if you aren't using the features to drive for you, they are still actively protecting you in an emergency.
-
Regarding the second, these are safety features as much as anything else. Autonomous driving should be much safer than a human driving and Tesla is able to update their cars with more safety features as the government allows them. Even if you aren't using the features to drive for you, they are still actively protecting you in an emergency.
I'll be far happier when the bad drivers have access to this technology. And use it. I trust computerised machines to do the right thing far more than a lot of drivers, especially if I'm on my bike.
-
Regarding your first point, Teslas have far fewer parts than a traditional internal combustion engine car due to the electric motor(s). They also don't require oil changes, timing belt replacements, etc. because of this. In a decade or two from now, this should make Teslas (or another similar style) amongst the more mustachian of choices.
Yeah, but it's a bitch when the little motors that extrude the door handles break :-/
-
I was seriously going to troll you. Driving my Tesla is better than sex*, followed by 3 paragraphs oh how my Tesla is my favorite car ever.
Not going to lie it truly is an amazing vehicle.
Until I came the $115k net worth at which point I decided trolling you would be just too evil.
Because as great as owning a Tesla is, being financially independent is way way better. You don't get there by spend 2/3 of your net worth car.
The Model is coming in 2016, probably 2017 for decent volume. My friend is one of lead engineers he assures me it will be a great car. I think it will 40k (if that is before or after tax rebate who knows) But if you save like mad between now and 2017, you can probably afford one.
(* well not the best sex I've ever had but certainly way better than worse, and probably better than the run of the mill when one of us wasn't really into it.)
-
I admire the S and D, but those are luxury cars and so they are out of my price range. I am looking forward to seeing the more affordable Model E, but even that will probably be too expensive, in the 40-50K range. I hope the battery technology and some of the other innovations percolate through the car industry.
-
I admire the S and D, but those are luxury cars and so they are out of my price range. I am looking forward to seeing the more affordable Model E, but even that will probably be too expensive, in the 40-50K range. I hope the battery technology and some of the other innovations percolate through the car industry.
It says something about our country when the "affordable" option is more than most people's yearly salaries. :P
-
You'll probably love it... for a few months.
When the new car smell wears off you'll be left with a $100k hole in your net worth.
-
Model S comes standard with a forward looking camera, radar, and 360-degree ultrasonic sensors that actively monitor the surrounding roadway. Progressive software updates over time will enable sophisticated safety and convenience features that use these sensors to respond to real world conditions. Safety features include systems that warn drivers of potential hazards and help avoid or lessen the impacts of collisions. Convenience features include everyday driving maneuvers that reduce driver workload, such as traffic aware cruise control and automatic parking.
A. How do we build a car with the maximum number of things that can break?
B. How do we make a car for people who consider driving in a luxury car something with a "workload"?
At least bedpans are cheap!
Regarding your first point, Teslas have far fewer parts than a traditional internal combustion engine car due to the electric motor(s). They also don't require oil changes, timing belt replacements, etc. because of this. In a decade or two from now, this should make Teslas (or another similar style) amongst the more mustachian of choices.
And they would have fewer if they didn't have cameras, radar, and ultrasonic sensors. It will be a long time until replacing an ultrasonic sensor is cheaper than replacing a timing belt. No argument from me, though, about electric cars eventually becoming mustachian choices.
Regarding the second, these are safety features as much as anything else. Autonomous driving should be much safer than a human driving and Tesla is able to update their cars with more safety features as the government allows them. Even if you aren't using the features to drive for you, they are still actively protecting you in an emergency.
I'm making fun of the fact that Tesla's copy is directed at people who find driving a luxury car exhausting. The last sentence of the ad is about the "convenience features".
(As an aside, I've absolutely despised driving each of the last 5 or so cars I've driven. Four degrees of turning radius and a porthole to look out of.)
-
It will be a long time until replacing an ultrasonic sensor is cheaper than replacing a timing belt.
Huh? Ultrasonic sensors for cars are about $8 and are as easy to replace as a light bulb. If you want to go unbranded from china, I found some (10 seconds of googling) in the $2-3 range. That's as much as a 3057 light bulb for my tail light, for example.
Not only that, but ultrasonic sensors are mostly solid-state (apart from the driver) so they will last a very long time - I'd reckon 10-ish years mean time to failure for an OEM part, maybe 5 for a replacement for a few bucks given possibly imperfect weatherproofing. I've designed things with cheap-as-fuck ultrasonic sensors that's been functioning for over 5 years now.
-
It will be a long time until replacing an ultrasonic sensor is cheaper than replacing a timing belt.
Huh? Ultrasonic sensors for cars are about $8 and are as easy to replace as a light bulb. If you want to go unbranded from china, I found some (10 seconds of googling) in the $2-3 range. That's as much as a 3057 light bulb for my tail light, for example.
Not only that, but ultrasonic sensors are mostly solid-state (apart from the driver) so they will last a very long time - I'd reckon 10-ish years mean time to failure for an OEM part, maybe 5 for a replacement for a few bucks given possibly imperfect weatherproofing. I've designed things with cheap-as-fuck ultrasonic sensors that's been functioning for over 5 years now.
I was going off of my parents experience replacing small electrical things on their new car. In their experience, the labor for that has been expensive, regardless of how cheap the part was. If all the little bits and bobs for each model available and easily-replaceable, that's radical. I also wish there were fewer lightbulbs to replace on my car, but that can be my own problem.
-
At the other end of the spectrum, I love the idea of an EV since I drive so little as-is (typically under 300 miles a month, rarely over 40 miles in a single day) but cheap used cars are so freaking cheap compared to even the least expensive EVs. Basically the Nissan Leaf is the cheapest one I can find, and of course you're basically limited to buying locally due to the range. $12,500 seems to be the minimum point of entry. Meanwhile I can get a very nice condition 10-year old Prius for $7000 or a "so-so" condition 10-year old compact car for $3500. Under no circumstances can I currently buy an EV and have it benefit my finances because EVs are all so new and limited in quantity to begin with.
Now in another 10 years? I do not at all rule out that something like Leaf, Focus EV, or Chevy Volt will be $6000 in another 10 years, especially if gas continues to hang out in the $3 or $4/gallon range. But for now, I too wish for an electric car but will continue to settle for crappy compact cars that get the job done just as effectively at a much lower 10-year cost. I really like the MMM guide of looking at things in terms of what it will cost you over 10 years. That really gets to the heart of the issue for someone looking to maximize their long term financials.
I'd just wait until the Volt, Leaf, and Prius Plugin are selling used for under $10K
-
I was going off of my parents experience replacing small electrical things on their new car. In their experience, the labor for that has been expensive, regardless of how cheap the part was. If all the little bits and bobs for each model available and easily-replaceable, that's radical. I also wish there were fewer lightbulbs to replace on my car, but that can be my own problem.
Oh yeah, man. Yeah. I like to pay top dollar for labor rates, because I find it cheaper (eg $100/hr gets things done twice as fast as $70/hr, and nothing ever has to come in twice for the same problem) but that's absolute murder for the small stuff. I had a good shop back in new england where they knew me, and my parents, as decade+ customers, so they wouldn't charge for a two-minute bulb replacement. Out here, I've taken those duties on myself. I replaced my rearview mirror, light switch, and tail light yesterday night - would probably cost me $200+ in labor to get it done.
How easy it is to replace the little things depends on the car. Some things are easy in some cars; some are not. For me to change my spark plugs, for example, one has to lift the engine up - $200 labor, $100 for six high-quality plugs and wires that will last long enough to not pay another $200 labor anytime soon. On the other hand, tail lights don't even require tools to replace. Similarly, ultrasonic sensors might be incredibly easy, or they might cost you enough that you're better off replacing them all if one goes haywire, because it only adds 5% to the cost.
Tesla offers a service plan at $600/year. Basically an extended service warranty. I would pay $600/year in a heartbeat for the service. I pay significantly more for my (admittedly aging) car. Yes, you can buy a whole new $600 car every year that will probably last a year, but I use my car as more than a tool to get from A to B. In fact, that's one of the reasons I won't be buying a tesla any time soon - a lot of people have "range anxiety" but almost nobody actually drives far enough for it to be an issue. But until there are charging stations every hundred miles along every road in Alaska, BC, Alberta, the Yukon, the northwest territories... it's a dealbreaker for me. I can't carry spare electric charge, but eight extra gallons of gas gets me a very long distance. It sounds like a bullshit example but twice a year I find myself far away enough from civilization that a 500-person town gets signs pointed to it from 150 miles away. Or 500.
Back to the topic - I love the safety features. Are they hand-holding, baby bullshit? I don't know, people said the same thing about seatbelts. "I don't need no gubment telling me what to do, I'll get thrown clear if I crash anyways, it happened to a guy I heard about." Look at modern cars - they ensure the survival of absolutely insane crashes; the cars smash to shit but the passenger cabins stay intact. Lane assist is bullshit until the one time you're so tired you drift into a microsleep. Automatic braking is bullshit until you come around a corner into a traffic jam while you're glancing at your passenger. Backup cameras are... well, never bullshit; they add to the cost but they're an excellent complement to your mirrors, showing you blind spots. Ditto blind spot detectors. How the fuck are people complaining about fewer blind spots? Because it's electronic and can break? So? As if solid steel doesn't break. Yes, we all love classic muscle, but the truth is that the only people I trust driving classic muscle are the ones who are able to seek it out, afford to buy it, and afford to maintain and/or restore it. Which is great, because the barrier to entry is high enough that you don't get Little Sally or Bobby driving daddy's 60s charger after getting their license, not realizing it has 500 hp and about as much torque and jumps at the slightest touch. I'd prefer they drive the car with lane assist and auto braking. Ditto for soccer mom and ditto for tired dad and so on.
If you don't like modern safety features, classic muscle cars are fairly inexpensive to buy - you can buy many very nice cars for $5-10k. It's got just enough electronics to power the lights and spark plugs and starter motor. Buy that.
-
Gimp:
Word. I'm not into muscle or speed, at all really, so maybe I'm not really the right person for this conversation. And I'm sure my parents paid whatever was default for labor. It's a new car and it might have even been at the dealer. If it can be done at home, groovay.
My main frustrating is that they've added all these visibility and safety features after completely fucking over visibility in modern cars. Give me a real window and then start adding SONAR. (Thanks for being here with me while I work through my issues.)
In the past three years I've driven probably 6 cars manufactured after 2000 (domestics, imports, all sedans). So far, each of them has had a barely functional set of windows. The front window is half obscured by the piece of metal holding up the roof -- I have to move my head a foot to the right or left to check for peds in the crosswalk on a left turn. Because it is "sleek" it's at a 45 degree angle and blocking a third of what I can see on the left. The rear windows are universally really short and usually pretty dark. Passenger-side rear windows do absolutely nothing in terms of checking the blind spot on that side, since the whole second half of the cabin in squished down. Other cars have darker and darker windows; you used to be able to see through cars!
And then, if I wanted to be really grumpy, I'd start talking about turning radius.
-
I haven't bother with any type service plan for the Tesla (Even though a Tesla is certainly not Mustachian, I think my 40K battery (no longer made) with minimal options is possible the cheapest ever made.). The couple of times I've brought in were for a recall, my tire rotation, and problem which as likely as not was user error on my part. The wash/detail the car, check everything, give you an awesome loaner car (A full loaded Tesla p85) and don't charge a dime.
There is very little that can go wrong on the car other than battery dying and the electronics.
-
It is true that many new cars have absolutely shit visibility. Absolutely true. I've driven quite a few. I found some econoboxes to be fairly good, and others fairly terrible (looking at you, civic / camry / corolla / accord). I haven't driven a lot of nicer cars, though the mazda 6 I drove was okay (except for its shite tiptronic transmission.)
If you check out the Tesla chassis, you can see how ridiculously solid-state it is. I can look at my car and find a million moving parts that are entirely gone in a Tesla - they're replaced by solid-state devices, and by removing mechanical linkages in favor of signaling and moving parts more locally. In other words, a lot of mechanical logic has been replaced by electronic, which is fantastic - with the right tools, it's a cinch to diagnose, easier to physically replace, and should be more reliable. As long as all those microcontrollers are properly specced for heat and cold and don't wear off their gate oxide too fast - thankfully, heavy industry embedded devices tend to be pretty good about lasting decades. On the downside, you're not debugging complex issues without a lot of inside knowledge that likely won't leave Tesla, and you're not replacing components willy nilly, and you're certainly not fabricating replacements for electronics. I would be surprised if this wasn't quite a lot more reliable than normal cars.
Of course, it is funny when the door handle doesn't pop out and you're stuck because of a silly bit of trim.
-
I toured the Tesla factory, which I had also toured 30 years ago when it was NUMI (a joint venture between Toyota and GM). Of course it had lots of cool robots. But what really struck me is just how simple the car is. Two electric motors one for each rear wheel. (The all wheel drive D model has 4 motors one for each wheel LOL). The battery pack, which is just a bunch of laptop batteries wired to together, with a boat load of sensors and cooling system and that is pretty much it. The engine compartment is replaced with a frunk (front trunk).
The other reason while maintenance well be so low is the over the air software upgrades, which come out every couple of months, like Window or iOS upgrades.
Door handles not coming out fast enough, sometimes getting stuck, software patch.
When the Tesla was introduced it had less ground clearance at cruising speed than 95% of cars out there. That lead to series of collisions which punctured the battery and cased the car to catch fire (in a controlled manner). The solution was to raise the car so it was only in the 70th percentile in ground clearance. Let some other dude in a sport car run over the road hazards..
Then they latter they gave us the option for deciding to we want better aerodynamics= better range or reduce the risk of hitting something on the ground.
-
I toured the Tesla factory, which I had also toured 30 years ago when it was NUMI (a joint venture between Toyota and GM). Of course it had lots of cool robots. But what really struck me is just how simple the car is. Two electric motors one for each rear wheel. (The all wheel drive D model has 4 motors one for each wheel LOL). The battery pack, which is just a bunch of laptop batteries wired to together, with a boat load of sensors and cooling system and that is pretty much it. The engine compartment is replaced with a frunk (front trunk).
The other reason while maintenance well be so low is the over the air software upgrades, which come out every couple of months, like Window or iOS upgrades.
Door handles not coming out fast enough, sometimes getting stuck, software patch.
When the Tesla was introduced it had less ground clearance at cruising speed than 95% of cars out there. That lead to series of collisions which punctured the battery and cased the car to catch fire (in a controlled manner). The solution was to raise the car so it was only in the 70th percentile in ground clearance. Let some other dude in a sport car run over the road hazards..
Then they latter they gave us the option for deciding to we want better aerodynamics= better range or reduce the risk of hitting something on the ground.
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. It's terrifying that tesla can push an update to my car that changes it's physical characteristics.
-
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. It's terrifying that tesla can push an update to my car that changes it's physical characteristics.
Why? It is no different than a recall. I think you also can chose to not to accept updates.
-
1000$/mo in Chicago is pretty cheap rent.
Uhhh... what?
Are you paying two shares of rent? Or did you just snap up the first option that looked nice?
I've paid $450-$700/month for rent in Chicago. I don't live in the Loop or anything, but nice enough places. I always have roommates but even if I wanted a private space, studios and 1 brs can be had for under $800. I'd feel like an idiot paying that much for rent, though.
Also WHAT ARE YOU DOING WANTING TO BUY A NEW CAR WHEN YOU LIVE IN CHICAGO?!? Chicago transit may be mediocre, but it does the job for wayyyyy cheaper than that vehicle, and saves a lot of the hassle of cars.
-
Of, I will say it. I don't think ANY human being should allowed to conisder a 2-ton (4000 lbs) heavy car as a personal, leisure/commute vehicle.
The Tesla may be very efficient in converting from energy storage (battery) to wheel movement, but overall it requires too much energy to accelerate your ass.....4000 lbs for god's sake....
Just to move your ass around. It makes me cringe.
-
I just checked out the Tesla website to see what the fuss is all about. Dude, Model S is an old man sedan, and Model X is a soccer mom cross over. Ugh. Get a Prius, or a Fit.
-
I love this juxtaposition. You know what happens when people are hungry and jobless? They come and take your stuff. You pay for unemployment not so you can enjoy it yourself - though maybe you will - but so the unemployed don't start starving. Remember, they're not going to quietly die in their apartments where you can stand off to the side and sniff, "Good, they should have saved." You pay for social infrastructure so that you spend 10% of your income, not 100% and the rest of your belongings.
Very well written! You just printed down with words what I have been beliving the last 10 years, but I couldnt put it down as well as you did :)
That said, I also think that its unfair that we who work and save in Europe specially compared to the US are taxed so heavy but I see it as a kind of insurance that societey won't completely break down. Same thing as when I pay private insurance that would give me 60-80% of my income in case of unemplymement for almost a year for the tidy amount of about 60-70 us $ a month, kind of like homeinsurance, it would sucks if my house burned down or been burglared and I had decided to save on it..
-
The Tesla S is a piece of shit.
It does these 3 things:
- Transport you and up to three other people from one place to another.
- Look pretty.
- Relieve you of your money.
It literally does NOTHING ELSE worthwhile. It is pretty much the most unmustachian vehicle I can think of. As a grocery-getter and commuter, it's a fail because you should be using your bicycle for these things anyway. Or at least a car that costs 1/50th of a Tesla. It can't be used to haul larger items that can't fit on a bike or bike trailer because it's just a passenger car and doesn't have appreciable cargo space. It can't be used for road trips because it only goes 200 miles (if you're lucky) in between lengthy charges.
When I see somebody driving a Tesla, I don't see someone who is well-to-do, good-looking, or trendy. I see a person who is weak, easily influenced by marketing and peers, has poor self-control, and doesn't make rational decisions in their own best interests.
I want to applaud Tesla for bringing the first successful all-electric vehicle to the U.S. market. But I can't bring myself to sing their praises when even their "for the unwashed masses" version is going to be in the BMW luxury sports-car price range instead of the Toyota Prius price range.
This is hands-down the best explanation for why not to buy one I've heard yet. Thank you, it wiped out all my Tesla urges for the day.
I agree, this was awesome, very persuasive!
My bike does almost zero damage to a road, so I don't need road maintenance.
This is possibly the most stupid thing you said - literally every thing you own requires road infrastructure. Minerals and metals were mined using tools delivered by road. They were sent places by road. They were processed and metal stock and so on was sent by road. That was milled, stamped, and cast, and products were sent by road. People used roads to get to these places so they could design and build everything. Jesus christ, this is so stupid I'm trying not to laugh. What the fuck are you going to do, ride your bike through the forest? Where are the replacement parts going to come from - airdropped to your house?
I don't need unemployment - I have savings for that. The only legitimate government service I receive is police and fire protection, and that shouldn't cost me tens of thousands a year in taxes.
I love this juxtaposition. You know what happens when people are hungry and jobless? They come and take your stuff. You pay for unemployment not so you can enjoy it yourself - though maybe you will - but so the unemployed don't start starving. Remember, they're not going to quietly die in their apartments where you can stand off to the side and sniff, "Good, they should have saved." You pay for social infrastructure so that you spend 10% of your income, not 100% and the rest of your belongings.
thanks for this, gimp. very well put and I'm with ya 100%
-
I've said it before, but it bears repeating. It's terrifying that tesla can push an update to my car that changes it's physical characteristics.
Why? It is no different than a recall. I think you also can chose to not to accept updates.
That would be nice if you can choose not to accept the update. It would be terrifying if you are not given a choice. I've only heard that it was "pushed," which implies no choice.
-
I toured the Tesla factory, which I had also toured 30 years ago when it was NUMI (a joint venture between Toyota and GM). Of course it had lots of cool robots. But what really struck me is just how simple the car is. Two electric motors one for each rear wheel. (The all wheel drive D model has 4 motors one for each wheel LOL). The battery pack, which is just a bunch of laptop batteries wired to together, with a boat load of sensors and cooling system and that is pretty much it. The engine compartment is replaced with a frunk (front trunk).
The other reason while maintenance well be so low is the over the air software upgrades, which come out every couple of months, like Window or iOS upgrades.
Door handles not coming out fast enough, sometimes getting stuck, software patch.
When the Tesla was introduced it had less ground clearance at cruising speed than 95% of cars out there. That lead to series of collisions which punctured the battery and cased the car to catch fire (in a controlled manner). The solution was to raise the car so it was only in the 70th percentile in ground clearance. Let some other dude in a sport car run over the road hazards..
Then they latter they gave us the option for deciding to we want better aerodynamics= better range or reduce the risk of hitting something on the ground.
Correction: The model S has ONE motor, and the "D" version has TWO. Like most cars, they use an open differential to transmit power from the motor to the wheels.
-
I toured the Tesla factory, which I had also toured 30 years ago when it was NUMI (a joint venture between Toyota and GM). Of course it had lots of cool robots. But what really struck me is just how simple the car is. Two electric motors one for each rear wheel. (The all wheel drive D model has 4 motors one for each wheel LOL). The battery pack, which is just a bunch of laptop batteries wired to together, with a boat load of sensors and cooling system and that is pretty much it. The engine compartment is replaced with a frunk (front trunk).
The other reason while maintenance well be so low is the over the air software upgrades, which come out every couple of months, like Window or iOS upgrades.
Door handles not coming out fast enough, sometimes getting stuck, software patch.
When the Tesla was introduced it had less ground clearance at cruising speed than 95% of cars out there. That lead to series of collisions which punctured the battery and cased the car to catch fire (in a controlled manner). The solution was to raise the car so it was only in the 70th percentile in ground clearance. Let some other dude in a sport car run over the road hazards..
Then they latter they gave us the option for deciding to we want better aerodynamics= better range or reduce the risk of hitting something on the ground.
Correction: The model S has ONE motor, and the "D" version has TWO. Like most cars, they use an open differential to transmit power from the motor to the wheels.
I'm waiting for the model Z with 10 motors.
-
Of, I will say it. I don't think ANY human being should (be) allowed to conisder a 2-ton (4000 lbs) heavy car as a personal, leisure/commute vehicle.
(bold mine)
Luckily it's not up to you
-
That's the kind of Tesla I'm happy to own!
^This. We also own a large tranche of TSLA in a well diversified portfolio that we could swap for a car (though we went carless last year) ... However, by letting each other know this we are tempting the OP with decidedly unactionable information...
When we return to the ranks of car-dom, it will likely be with a Model III.
-
...a onsie that says "Tesla" on the front and on the back across the shoulders "0 Emissions" And on the back across the butt "Almost..."
That is awesome. Shareholders with kids should get one of those to hook the kid (and the parents) early...
-
Oh, this topic made me laugh. We're old and I'm FIRE (DH is "only" FI, lol). I drive a 2007 Dodge Grand Caravan with 111k miles on it. It was my company car pre-FIRE, so I bought it out for cheap and have driven it less than 15k miles in two years. (No facepunches. I have a rental property in SoCal and a MIL with Alzheimer's - I can't trust her on a bike, much as I'd like to.) DH wants to replace my car. Whenever he brings it up, I always say I'll take a Tesla. (Only a tiny fraction of me fears that it might turn up in our driveway with a big bow on top.)
My point is this, OP. Even though we could pay cash for that car or anything at the Maserati/Bentley Dealer down the street from us, we are not willing to give up one iota of our freedom for a set of wheels. I never worry about anything that might happen to my car. It's cheap to register and insure. What's not cheap is the value of our time or the effort that went into becoming FI.
So here's something I used to do pre-FI when I really wanted a new car. Figure out the sales tax. Estimate the license and registration. Calculate how much more the insurance will be. Add all those numbers up. You will be shocked at how much money you would be pissing away. Hint: it's gonna cost you more than 1k per month. Way more. And frankly my dear, not only do you not have it to spend at this point in your FI journey, you do not DESERVE it. Keep pulling toward FI. By the time you do "deserve" it, you will not want it, I assure you.
-
It will be a long time until replacing an ultrasonic sensor is cheaper than replacing a timing belt.
Huh? Ultrasonic sensors for cars are about $8 and are as easy to replace as a light bulb...That's as much as a 3057 light bulb for my tail light, for example.
^Absolutely. But logic is overlooked by many, including those who still cry about how much Prius batteries cost to replace ... every 3 years or some nonsense! ;)
-
It will be a long time until replacing an ultrasonic sensor is cheaper than replacing a timing belt.
Huh? Ultrasonic sensors for cars are about $8 and are as easy to replace as a light bulb...That's as much as a 3057 light bulb for my tail light, for example.
^Absolutely. But logic is overlooked by many, including those who still cry about how much Prius batteries cost to replace ... every 3 years or some nonsense! ;)
You've overlooked some discussion that happened since this was posted. :P
-
That would be nice if you can choose not to accept the update. It would be terrifying if you are not given a choice. I've only heard that it was "pushed," which implies no choice.
Push refers to the method of updating, in contrast to pull.
Pull: Start your car, use the user interface to navigate to an update menu, check for updates, decide if you want to download and install.
Push: Start your car, the car automatically gets a notification of an update, (likely downloads automatically, though I'm not sure), decide if you want to install it.
It's like checking your email (pull) versus a notification appearing that you have one, and it's already downloaded for you (push).
The difference is that people are absentminded and don't like to pull, or to remember to pull, and you end up with a lot of devices (cars) with a lot of different versions of the software. So you push instead, vast majority hits agree, now you have 95%+ running the same software hopefully. This makes it much easier to debug issues (is it related to something we already fixed?) and to avoid issues (we found an issue on two cars, fixed it for all of them.)
-
That would be nice if you can choose not to accept the update. It would be terrifying if you are not given a choice. I've only heard that it was "pushed," which implies no choice.
Push refers to the method of updating, in contrast to pull.
Pull: Start your car, use the user interface to navigate to an update menu, check for updates, decide if you want to download and install.
Push: Start your car, the car automatically gets a notification of an update, (likely downloads automatically, though I'm not sure), decide if you want to install it.
It's like checking your email (pull) versus a notification appearing that you have one, and it's already downloaded for you (push).
The difference is that people are absentminded and don't like to pull, or to remember to pull, and you end up with a lot of devices (cars) with a lot of different versions of the software. So you push instead, vast majority hits agree, now you have 95%+ running the same software hopefully. This makes it much easier to debug issues (is it related to something we already fixed?) and to avoid issues (we found an issue on two cars, fixed it for all of them.)
That's just pushing an update notification -- pushing an actual update implies automatic installation. Like Chrome.
Apparently the first update was mandatory -- not sure about the rest.
-
Good analogy. My chrome automatically downloads updates, but doesn't install them. Push. There's nothing about push that implies an auto-install, unless I've been doing software all wrong...
I have a bunch of devices at work running code I maintain and we decided to have those be pull instead of push (for very good reasons) but it's a pain in the ass. I wish I could push sometimes. The middle ground I'll implement is checking for updates and alerting if they exist - still a pull, but automated notification, much like - say - most linux distros do updates. (And I assume Tesla is running a Linux kernel, or at least *nix, no?)
-
I get notified when there is Tesla update. It tells me it will do the update at 3 AM, and ask me if I"d like to change the time. I know I can change the time, but haven't notice if there is an option not to update it at all. I obviously could postpone it every day for another day.
-
Good analogy. My chrome automatically downloads updates, but doesn't install them. Push. There's nothing about push that implies an auto-install, unless I've been doing software all wrong...
I have a bunch of devices at work running code I maintain and we decided to have those be pull instead of push (for very good reasons) but it's a pain in the ass. I wish I could push sometimes. The middle ground I'll implement is checking for updates and alerting if they exist - still a pull, but automated notification, much like - say - most linux distros do updates. (And I assume Tesla is running a Linux kernel, or at least *nix, no?)
Chrome absolutely auto-updates, usually when restarted. It might be possible to disable autoupdate (e.g. http://www.howtogeek.com/186330/how-to-fix-and-adjust-automatic-updating-in-google-chrome/)
-
Some people are coming a little hot here... *dons flame-retardant suit*
Since half the battle is about conscious spending, AKA making choices, I can relate to wanting a cool car instead of going on vacation or some other non-essential spending. In fact, here is a little secret: I am also planning for a Tesla in my garage.
Here is my plan:
Cars (especially the luxury kind) have extreme depreciation rates in the first years: think 11% the first day of operation, 30% after 2 years, etc. And that does not include the financing costs. (see http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-fast-does-my-new-car-lose-value-infographic.html (http://test|http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-fast-does-my-new-car-lose-value-infographic.html) )
Since I don't keep that kind of cash floating around for that use, I created a "Tesla stash" in which I put a monthly amount. That stash is producing more cash, market gods permitting.
I will keep an eye on the used market for good Teslas until my stash amount meets the market value.
THEN I can decide if the car is worth the accumulated stash, or if I want something else, or I prefer keeping it.
This worked for me when I was dreaming of *building* an electric car: when the stash was big enough, I decided that a nice newish convertible was what floated my boat.
-
Oh man, I rode in a Tesla last weekend and I had the same Jonesin'! It awakened a fierce consumer desire from deep within!
Accelerates twice as fast as my 2012 Prius V, and is twice as efficient. And that touch screen...WOW!
BUT....when I run the numbers on the Edmunds gas guzzler calculator....it would take NINETY-NINE (99) years to achieve break-even on the energy savings compared with the car price delta.
I can only conclude that Teslas are not very mustachian at this point. Sorry. I can only recommend one if you are way past the point of FI. Hopefully, the price of a used one will drop fast =)
-
Oh man, I rode in a Tesla last weekend and I had the same Jonesin'! It awakened a fierce consumer desire from deep within!
Accelerates twice as fast as my 2012 Prius V, and is twice as efficient. And that touch screen...WOW!
BUT....when I run the numbers on the Edmunds gas guzzler calculator....it would take NINETY-NINE (99) years to achieve break-even on the energy savings compared with the car price delta.
I can only conclude that Teslas are not very mustachian at this point. Sorry. I can only recommend one if you are way past the point of FI. Hopefully, the price of a used one will drop fast =)
I'm so glad that you've run the numbers. Question, though: which model did you do it for? They've got the X now and the Model III will be out in the next few years around the $35k price point. Could you link to the calculator?
-
I priced the 85 kwh model S to get the free use of the superchargers. Would there be any other way to do it? =)
Model X/III final pricing isn't out yet. You can run the numbers here: http://www.edmunds.com/calculators/gas-guzzler.html (http://www.edmunds.com/calculators/gas-guzzler.html)
(when using that calculation, be warned that it doesn't take into account tax incentives, sales taxes, or extra cost to insure)
-
The Model X pricing is out at $69,900 for the lowest battery, although you may need to go with 85 kwh in order to get access to Superchargers. Then there's the federal credit of $7,500. They are going into production next Spring and people can expect them later in Fall 2015 for new reservations.
http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-model-x
You are right- they haven't solidified the price of Model III. I think that it will land in the 35-40k range that I've seen in the news. Elon wants to make a normal sedan, and we'll see how it works out. It's always been his game plan.
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me
-
Speaking of TSLA stock reminds me of this article on what would have happened if you bought Apple stock instead of Apple products (http://kyleconroy.com/apple-stock). For example, if you had purchased $2400 in apple stock in 1997, instead of a Power Mac G3, you would now have $308k.
-
Speaking of TSLA stock reminds me of this article on what would have happened if you bought Apple stock instead of Apple products (http://kyleconroy.com/apple-stock). For example, if you had purchased $2400 in apple stock in 1997, instead of a Power Mac G3, you would now have $308k.
My roommate in college was an IT guy (1990ish) and told me to drop out and spend all my money on Microsoft stock. At the time I thought he was nuts. If only Id listened.
-
If you find you absolutely cannot resist .... you could move to Michigan: http://www.wxyz.com/news/state/governor-snyder-signs-a-law-to-ban-tesla-direct-sales
-
This piqued my curiosity and I went for a look. I wouldn't want either of them. No cargo room. Where would I put the dog? The 6 bags of stinky mushroom compost? The pallets? The three big bags of potting soil? All the other bulky stuff my Mazda3 hatchback carries with no problems.
Plus having a fancy expensive car means worrying about it. My car is almost 5 years old, if it gets a ding here or a scratch there I can live with it. If the back gets dirty I just take the carpet out and brush it off.
For me the maintenance cost in terms of my time and worry level is just as important as the money.
I just checked out the Tesla website to see what the fuss is all about. Dude, Model S is an old man sedan, and Model X is a soccer mom cross over. Ugh. Get a Prius, or a Fit.
-
^^
It is a hatchback in case you didn't know and holds a bike.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27574-Can-It-Fit-A-Bike
-
I don't know if you are referring to my post since you didn't quote me. The picture I saw before didn't show the space as well. I looked at your link and it looks about the same as my Mazda - but at what price? In money and worry and "being careful". Same reason I almost never wore my engagement ring - too fancy, too much worry.
Would anyone put 6 large stinky bags of mushroom compost in a Tesla? It would feel like wearing mucky shoes on a Persian carpet.
^^
It is a hatchback in case you didn't know and holds a bike.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27574-Can-It-Fit-A-Bike
-
I agree that you should wait for the Model iii so it would at least only be the price of the average overpriced new car. That's what my wife is doing right now. She's saving up her money to buy it outright and she plans to drive it for at least twenty years, so she should get her money's worth out of it. I still think a used Prius is a much better investment, but it's her money and she can do what she wants with it.
-
Maybe you could rent one for a week, drive it a lot, and get it out of your system.
-
Do you have someplace near you that will rent them? Last I looked, I only saw a place in California that was renting the Model S at around $3000 a day. Granted this was a year or so ago, but still... I'm assuming that renting one for a week will still not be cheap.
-
Get the jacket - buy a share of stock - you are now the owner of Tesla. My DH would also love one of these cars, but the coat is all he's got. He's "somewhat" happy with that.
-
Do you have someplace near you that will rent them? Last I looked, I only saw a place in California that was renting the Model S at around $3000 a day. Granted this was a year or so ago, but still... I'm assuming that renting one for a week will still not be cheap.
A number of owners on RelayRides around the country rent their Teslas (Roadster and Model S). The highest I've seen of late is $275, while one gent was renting his for $185 (prices per day).
-
I drove and rode in a Tesla last weekend. It felt like... drumroll ... a car. I was expecting something much more impressive for 100k. The little novelties (handles, lighting, etc) just weren't impressive. The computer interface feels like a 2008 smart phone blown up to 17 inches.
-
The Tesla is a pretty car. I see a few of them in DC. I might go to the hobby store and buy a model of one to build. That'll be the closest I get to a Tesla.
I don't know what to say to talk you out of it other than $1000/mo is $12000/yr, which is $201k after 10 years at 7%. How much closer to retirement would $200k move you? How many years does that buy? That's really the whole point of being frugal and saving money. You're buying your life back. Is that pretty Tesla worth X years of your life as a wage slave?