Author Topic: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers  (Read 11945 times)

totoro

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Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« on: August 02, 2013, 01:30:31 PM »
Some of the posts by lawyers on this forum who are hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt with low-paying jobs led me to look into the US job market for law grads. 

I read some articles like this one: http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/11/just-how-bad-off-are-law-school-graduates/ and http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/ and started to wonder a bit about this career choice.

If the articles are correct, I don't understand why students continue to enrol in law school if they are not receiving scholarships or attending a school with really positive job prospects? 

Jamesqf

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 01:36:40 PM »
Because they have absorbed the "lawyers make big bucks" meme from 20 years of exposure to popular culture, and don't realize that the real world has changed.

dragoncar

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 01:38:03 PM »
Because their non-law prospects are equally dismal or worse.  So they kick the can down the road for 3 years and hope we go back to a 2007 legal market.

ChiStache

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 01:42:54 PM »
I think the grim reality is sinking in. Fewer people took the LSAT (law school admission test) last year than in any other year over the last decade.  Check out the handy chart here: http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/fewest-lsats-administered-over-10-years.html.

hoodedfalcon

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 01:52:17 PM »
Law schools are feeling it too. There have been a number of layoffs this past year at many law schools. http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/massive_layoffs_predicted_in_law_schools_due_to_big_drop_in_applicants

Quote
Based on current trends, the number of law school applicants for the 2013 school year is expected to number between 53,000 and 54,000, a 30-year low. In 2004, for example, 100,000 people applied to law schools, the New York Times reports. “Responding to the new environment,” the Times says, “schools are planning cutbacks and accepting students they would not have admitted before.”

willn

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2013, 04:36:02 PM »
Hmm maybe time to negotiate a cheap tuition at a law school...

totoro

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2013, 05:17:28 PM »
Tuition is really an issue in the US. 

I'm in Canada and my law degree cost $10,000 in tuition for three years at one of the top-rated schools - it was ranked #1 for the years I attended.  It has almost tripled since then, but still relatively affordable. 

Add another $10,000 per year for cost of living (estimate provided by BC Student Loans) and you are at $60,000 total cost today.   In the US it seems that the average debt for a law degree is $150 000.

I worked summers in law-related jobs and during the school year starting my second year.  I could earn enough with scholarships to graduate debt-free.  Most law students here work summers and can offset some of the costs this way.

If I was to look at law school in the US today I don't think I would choose this option unless I had a full scholarship or some a very well-thought out and tested plan for after graduation.

olivia

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
I think a lot of people probably think they'll be the ones who are different and special and will make it.

MrsPete

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 07:08:15 PM »
Everyone's not so short-sighted.  My sister-in-law was very interested in becoming a lawyer, but when she investigated what it would take to go to law school, what she'd have to borrow, and what she could expect in financial rewards after graduation . . .  She went a different direction.  The evidence is out there. 

I do wonder if Olivia, above, is right.  That is, do people think, "Nah, not me.  I'll get a good job.  This'll work out for me.". A friend of mine who's about 25 once explained to me that here whole generation buys into this concept.  We are all winners.  Yes, we can all win.  No, that doesn't make sense, bur we buy into it.  We do nor believe we can fail.  That would make us losers, and we are not losers.  I'm older, and I do not think this way. 

ender

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 10:48:13 AM »
This is just a symptom of the:

 - I want to do something!
 - I don't care (or know) what it costs, it'll just work out somehow. Follow your dreams!
 - I live in America where anyone can do anything!
 

problem.

Undecided

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 08:01:08 PM »
This is just a symptom of the:

 - I want to do something!
 - I don't care (or know) what it costs, it'll just work out somehow. Follow your dreams!
 - I live in America where anyone can do anything!
 

problem.

I agree. It's always amazed me that lower-tier law schools (by selectivity and new-grad job prospects, which broadly match up for law) can charge essentially the same tuition as top schools, and people will pay it.

SnackDog

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 08:13:50 PM »
Maybe they just love law and are so enthralled that they can't help themselves.  I always thought it would be fun to be a lawyer.  Most of the corporate attorneys I work with seem to have only average intelligence, even when it comes to law.  There can be extreme drudgery, of course, when it comes to massive written filings.

oldtoyota

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 08:55:20 PM »
The tuition issue someone raised here is widespread across all sorts of schools. When I see schools with enormous endowments still charging out-of-reach tuition, I am quite annoyed. To be fair, some of the schools do spread the money around.

chesebert

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 09:19:05 PM »
Maybe they just love law and are so enthralled that they can't help themselves.  I always thought it would be fun to be a lawyer.  Most of the corporate attorneys I work with seem to have only average intelligence, even when it comes to law.  There can be extreme drudgery, of course, when it comes to massive written filings.
Regarding intelligence, I agree that you don't need to be very smart to be a lawyer, but I do think my colleagues are above average in their intelligence. However, smart in law is nothing like (not even close) smart in engineering/science.

I remember when I was still in engineering school, there were always few of these people that can do the work in 1/10 of the time it takes the rest of the class and can finish a project under seemingly impossible timeline. For example, we were designing a superscalar processor in VHDL and it was down to the last week in the semaster. One member of my team who didn't do much work during the year too a look at the code and simulation results and redesigned/rewrote the code from scratch in 5 days. The design and code that was written in 5 days' time were superior to what 3 of us could come up with all semaster. Amazing!


totoro

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 09:32:41 PM »
Some of these are lawyers too.  I went to law school with some people with pretty spectacular brain-power and processing speeds.  Some of them former engineers and physicists and mathematicians - but certainly not all.

ichoosemyself

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2013, 02:15:46 AM »
Yet another jobless and debt-ridden lawyer chiming in here.

I think the root cause is a ladder-climbing mentality. The curse of law is that it's very hierarchical and path-dependent - but that's perversely what attracts people who have only known institutions and set paths. For me, at least, it was a big act of cowardice, psychological blundering, and lack of imagination. I actually deferred for a year, but in the end I just did not want to give up the merit scholarship, when I should have walked away and done ANYTHING else - housepainting, tutoring, whatever.

wing117

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2013, 05:28:24 AM »
I do wonder if Olivia, above, is right.  That is, do people think, "Nah, not me.  I'll get a good job.  This'll work out for me.". A friend of mine who's about 25 once explained to me that here whole generation buys into this concept.  We are all winners.  Yes, we can all win.  No, that doesn't make sense, bur we buy into it.  We do nor believe we can fail.  That would make us losers, and we are not losers.  I'm older, and I do not think this way.

I can't speak to Law School, but this quote from Mrs. Pete is sadly dead on for the mentality of my generation and younger. Our K12 systems have a "No Lose" mentality - everyone's a winner, everyone gets a reward regardless of their placement. I'm not surprised when every kid graduating high school believes they'll be different and beat the statistics.

Rebecca Stapler

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2013, 07:10:54 AM »
I think a lot of people probably think they'll be the ones who are different and special and will make it.

+1

catmustache

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 01:55:04 PM »
I think a lot of people probably think they'll be the ones who are different and special and will make it.

+1

+1, too. Also, people buy into the law school employment stats/admissions spiel without looking too closely at reality. I don't know if this happens in other places, but around here, the people who don't make much money and have law degrees are much less forthcoming than those who made 6 figures after graduation, thus skewing the numbers heavily.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2013, 03:15:50 PM »
I'm not sure I'd go to law school today, if I had to make the decision.  Though I probably still would.  I have loved the challenge and though it can sometimes be scary as hell, it's also exciting.  I love understanding issues on a level that I never did before law school and being able to immediately see the hole(s) in an argument and exploit it all the way to next Tuesday.  And I can fix even complex problems very effectively.

My decision to go to school was made in April of 2008, before the bottom dropped out of the market, and after 12+ years of public school teaching.  Once you've committed by taking out that first student loan, you'd better be all in, and I was.  One month into law school, Lehman Brothers failed and I thought "oh fuck.  What now?"   Work harder, that's what.  For me, it has worked out in large part because I put as much effort into networking as I did into law school.  No kidding, as soon as I was admitted but before I even started law school, I started attending my city's bar association events (eligible as a student).

I spent the summer before school started sitting in a U.S. Magistrate judge's courtroom watching the action.  During the first semester, Judge later recognized me at a bar association function.  We talked and Judge agreed to take me as a summer clerk in 2009 even though grades weren't out yet for the fall semester (though I'm sure if mine had stunk up the joint, the offer would have evaporated).  That's just one example out of many. 

By contrast, many of my fellow students had no idea the bar assoc. existed.  Their expectation was that the career services office would line up their interviews.  Also, many of them spent lots of time partying.  As a 40+ year old student with a lot to lose, my attitude toward that was "go ahead . . . I'll eat your lunch at exam time."

I suppose my overall point is that because of the economy and oversupply, law jobs are scarce right now (and for the foreseeable future).  But, just like in any very competitive field, you can create advantages for yourself and be the exception.   I worked part-time for a firm during my third year of school (2010-11) and for the first year out.  Then I moved over to the BigLaw firm where I am now and where I interned in summer 2009 (after the clerkship).  My debt is very high but with more hard work and the wisdom of MMM, I'll be just fine within a few years but will also have many more options ahead of me than I could ever have had as a teacher.  On balance, well worth it.

Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet.  That's a truism that too many people forget, no matter their profession.

Marmot

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2013, 03:56:57 PM »
I think a lot of people probably think they'll be the ones who are different and special and will make it.

+1

That's the way we are wired...

In a survey of drivers, it was found that almost 80% of participants had evaluated themselves as being above the average driver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Driving_ability

CNM

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2013, 04:49:40 PM »
I'm a lawyer, but I was one of the lucky ones who graduated with "only" $60,000 in debt and had a job waiting for me when I graduated.  I was sworn in to the bar in 2006, and I know much has changed since then, especially with government jobs and BigLaw jobs. 

I still think that law school can be a good option, but not for everyone.  There's luck involved and also privilege.  Here's what I'd recommend.  Decide where you want to practice law.  Establish in-state status there.  Go to your home state school for law school.  It's usually way cheaper than any other law school.  Before you go to law school, make connections in the legal field.  Maybe your mom or dad or your friends or whatever are lawyers.  These networking connections mean everything.  As much as we like to think the world is a meritocracy, the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of clever law students who graduate every year.  You will be hired by someone you know. (As an aside, does anyone know A SINGLE PERSON who has gotten a job via USAjobs.gov?)

Also, I don't know who is to blame for spreading the rumor that first year associates make six figures.  Maybe a select few do, who live in large cities and work in BigLaw firms.  But the vast, vast majority will not.  This is because new associates don't know anything.  But I digress.  You can work your way up to six figures, sure, but that will take a few years. 

mgreczyn

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2013, 08:59:36 AM »
(As an aside, does anyone know A SINGLE PERSON who has gotten a job via USAjobs.gov?)
I applied to several, figuring that veteran status should matter a teensy weensie bit.  The postings all either expired or disappeared after I applied though. 

thegreenworkbench

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2013, 02:30:55 PM »
(As an aside, does anyone know A SINGLE PERSON who has gotten a job via USAjobs.gov?)
I applied to several, figuring that veteran status should matter a teensy weensie bit.  The postings all either expired or disappeared after I applied though.

I do know several.  Veteran status does actually matter quite a bit.  It can be a crap shoot and often appear to have no rhyme or reason.  I applied for the same job at two different agencies.  One said I didn't meet the minimum qualifications to even make the first cut.  The other hired me.  Go figure.

Remember, many agencies are currently under a hiring freeze, sequestration and all that.  Jobs that are funded and approved for hiring may suddenly be cut or become unfunded with little or no notice.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2013, 03:00:06 PM »
Yes, law school just doesn't seem like a rational decision for many people given the current job market.

The state of Washington, where I live, has an alternative path to bar admission: the law clerk program. In this program, an experienced lawyer acts as a tutor and employer for someone who is interested in becoming a lawyer. The clerk assists the lawyer in his/her practice (for pay) while also studying the same topics that are taught in law school. After four years, the clerk is eligible to take the bar exam and (assuming they pass) practice just like a lawyer who attended law school. Seems like a very Mustachian way to get into the legal profession if you can find a lawyer who would be willing to take you on as a clerk.

Washington is one of only a few states that still has this type of program. "Reading the law" in this manner used to be the primary way of becoming a lawyer (Lincoln did it, for example), but the bar associations lobbied for additional educational requirements at the end of the 19th century and law school became the predominant method of becoming a lawyer shortly thereafter.

hybrid

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 08:46:41 AM »
Before the great recession it was a lot easier to find employment as a lawyer.  There are fewer opportunities now, and law schools keep cranking out newly minted lawyers.  A lot of folks went back to school during the recession when jobs were not available.  It's a classic supply and demand problem.  Yes, there are still jobs for new lawyers.  But there are more lawyers than jobs, so the best, brightest, and better connected are finding the available seats when the music stops. 

This web site has been an entertaining read over the years.

http://abovethelaw.com/

They have written at length about how law schools have fudged their placement statistics after law school, especially in the lower tier law schools.

At one time I thought my daughter should go to law school (I work at a law firm in IT).  Now?  No way.  It's utterly saturated.

ZiziPB

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 09:07:27 AM »
@hybrid - I'm a lawyer (a successful one) and am also trying to talk my daughter out of her plan to go to law school ;-) She has two years left in college and I am truly hoping that I can get her to change her mind and find another career path...

Constance Noring

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 09:59:52 AM »
I do wonder if Olivia, above, is right.  That is, do people think, "Nah, not me.  I'll get a good job.  This'll work out for me.". A friend of mine who's about 25 once explained to me that here whole generation buys into this concept.  We are all winners.  Yes, we can all win.  No, that doesn't make sense, bur we buy into it.  We do nor believe we can fail.  That would make us losers, and we are not losers.  I'm older, and I do not think this way.

I can't speak to Law School, but this quote from Mrs. Pete is sadly dead on for the mentality of my generation and younger. Our K12 systems have a "No Lose" mentality - everyone's a winner, everyone gets a reward regardless of their placement. I'm not surprised when every kid graduating high school believes they'll be different and beat the statistics.

But is that the fault of the young people who believe that, or the generation that raised them to believe it?

hybrid

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 07:27:36 AM »
Some would argue it's partially the fault of law schools overhyping how easy it is to get a high paying lawyer gig at Big Law after passing the bar.  Yes, young adults should make wise choices about school but good lord, I remember the dumbass stuff I did when I was 22....

The best thing that can be done IMO is shine a bright light on how saturated the market is.  There will always be starry eyed young adults that believe they will be successful when the cold numbers dictate many will not (look at how many pursue careers in acting after all).

Mayan

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2013, 08:11:20 PM »
Not a lawyer, but I think many of the people graduating in the last 1-3 years applied at a time when the outlook (at least in the public eye) was a fair bit better.  It will be interesting to see if enrollments drop now that there has been so much press about the dismal prospects for recent graduates. 

My profession (veterinary) is going through a similar crisis.  New schools are being opened and existing ones increasing enrollment and tuition at a time when jobs are getting scarcer and starting salaries are going down.  When I started, the general thought was that you wouldn't get rich as a vet, but you'd always have a job.  in particular, there was said to be huge need for large animal vets.  It's been getting more difficult for new grads to find employment, and the large animal shortage is more a shortage of customers willing/able to pay than jobs going unfilled.  I was lucky to get out with manageable debt and took a high paying job over other, more appealing options in order to pay them off quickly...my colleagues who came out with $150,000+ in student loans are in for a lot of financial hurt

Soccermom2b

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2013, 10:28:47 PM »
(As an aside, does anyone know A SINGLE PERSON who has gotten a job via USAjobs.gov?)

I did, as did every single other lawyer in my office.  Thegreenworkbench is exactly right about the hiring situation right now - the jobs are few and far between, the preference for veteran's status sometimes makes a difference (keep in mind that there are tons of retiring JAG attorneys who have both veteran's preference and 20+ years experience), and with our budget cuts, available jobs are few and highly competed (i.e. hundreds of applicants for each spot).  Nevermind the fear that we all have that this year's furloughs are just a preamble to reductions in force next year.  Those who want to come to the government need to be willing to work anywhere, need to apply to every single job out there, and be willing to earn a low salary to start (and finish).  The next couple years are likely to be lean in term of available government jobs as the government workforce is likely to contract some more, and I wouldn't expect competition to go down for government jobs for another 5-10 years so getting in from the outside without some relevant specialty experience will be tough. 

As with any career, employer and opportunity, I think TrulyStashing said it best about being the exception.  I graduated with people who made well over six figures their first year out of law school and are now partners, and I graduated with many who left the profession (voluntarily or not) soon after graduation.  Most of those that succeeded graduated very high in the class, worked their pants off during school and after, and paid their dues.  The market is saturated, but there will always be a need for top-tier talent in the legal world.  If my kid really wants to be a lawyer and gets into a top-tier school, I'd say go for it. 

dragoncar

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2013, 12:20:32 AM »
Not a lawyer, but I think many of the people graduating in the last 1-3 years applied at a time when the outlook (at least in the public eye) was a fair bit better.  It will be interesting to see if enrollments drop now that there has been so much press about the dismal prospects for recent graduates. 

My profession (veterinary) is going through a similar crisis.  New schools are being opened and existing ones increasing enrollment and tuition at a time when jobs are getting scarcer and starting salaries are going down.  When I started, the general thought was that you wouldn't get rich as a vet, but you'd always have a job.  in particular, there was said to be huge need for large animal vets.  It's been getting more difficult for new grads to find employment, and the large animal shortage is more a shortage of customers willing/able to pay than jobs going unfilled.  I was lucky to get out with manageable debt and took a high paying job over other, more appealing options in order to pay them off quickly...my colleagues who came out with $150,000+ in student loans are in for a lot of financial hurt

Yes, applications have been dropping quite a bit: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/06/law-school-applicants-are-down-again-and-were-shockedplus-whats-going-on-at-georgetown/

That still doesn't excuse the Class of 2011, who really should have known better.

TrulyStashin

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Re: Jobless Debt-Ridden Lawyers
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2013, 08:03:14 AM »
Not a lawyer, but I think many of the people graduating in the last 1-3 years applied at a time when the outlook (at least in the public eye) was a fair bit better.  It will be interesting to see if enrollments drop now that there has been so much press about the dismal prospects for recent graduates. 

My profession (veterinary) is going through a similar crisis.  New schools are being opened and existing ones increasing enrollment and tuition at a time when jobs are getting scarcer and starting salaries are going down.  When I started, the general thought was that you wouldn't get rich as a vet, but you'd always have a job.  in particular, there was said to be huge need for large animal vets.  It's been getting more difficult for new grads to find employment, and the large animal shortage is more a shortage of customers willing/able to pay than jobs going unfilled.  I was lucky to get out with manageable debt and took a high paying job over other, more appealing options in order to pay them off quickly...my colleagues who came out with $150,000+ in student loans are in for a lot of financial hurt

Yes, applications have been dropping quite a bit: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/06/law-school-applicants-are-down-again-and-were-shockedplus-whats-going-on-at-georgetown/

That still doesn't excuse the Class of 2011, who really should have known better.

Hold on now . . . I'm class of 2011.  I applied to law school in the fall of 2007 when any signs of recession were mere rumbles of thunder in the far distance (and generally only recognized in hind sight).  My decision to leave teaching for law school was made in April of 2008 -- again before anyone but the very prescient knew what was coming.

I was about six weeks into law school when Lehman Bros. failed and the bottom dropped out of everything and I thought to myself "holy fuck.  What now?"  But by then I had already taken out that first round of student loans so my choices were finish and make the best of it or drop out with $30k in student loan debt and no degree to justify higher pay AND trying to get a teaching job in the middle of the school year.  It wasn't a hard decision to stay in (and I don't regret it).

Consider too, a certain percentage of people are going to go to law school because they want to be lawyers.