Job offer, better-than-expected salary, negotiate?

[capital]

I've been interviewing for jobs lately, and have an offer at a company I like. I have the good fortune to work in software engineering, which has been a booming field of late. The offer is $25k more than my previous base salary, and around $10k more than I was expecting, so I am inclined to accept. On the other hand, at my last job, I was able to get a $5000 starting bonus simply by making a phone call, and it can often be a good idea to negotiate salary.

I asked a friend from college with a reasonably similar skillset and experience, and she's just started a new job at the same salary I was offered. She said that she found out after starting that there would have been wiggle room had she asked.

So, should I ask for more?

[tooqk4u22]

Definitely just rember that "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered"  So don't be too greedy or demanding.

[Mrs MM]

Personally, I would accept and focus on being Awesome to ensure future pay raises based on skill.  :) 

Although, I'm sure some would say that it doesn't hurt to negotiate... I've negotiated for more in the past, but only because the salary was less than I would have liked.  I've also received higher than normal pay raises (and bonuses) just by working hard and becoming good at what I do.

[NYD3030]

My feelings is always, always, ALWAYS negotiate.  Counting on future raises is like counting on any investment - the best you can do is reasonably guess what will happen.

You may find, depending on your industry and on individual company culture, that the only opportunity for big salary growth is when you change jobs.  Certainly, my employer offers an average of about 2.5% a year and almost always tries to promote w/o raises at all.  So long as the job market is tight I expect this kind of thing to continue, and at current growth rates we're still almost 10 years from full employment.

So negotiate.  It can only help.

[mobilisinmobili]

Yes. It shows you're a serious contender and mean business.

You're likely going to have to offer some value to the company likely to get above their base offer.

I'd Google "Ramit Sethi" and "salary negotiation" and read everything he's posted for free / free videos on the topic.

His techniques helped me land my new position.

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/blog/negotiate-salary-examples/

[mustachecat]

Had you already given them a salary range? For instance, if you had said earlier that you wanted $75,000 - $85,000, and they offered $85,000, it's going to look a little greedy if you ask for $90,000.

[Dee18]

I would hesitate to ask for more money, but take the opportunity to ask for something else you want.  Tuition reimbursement?  Agreement to send you to a particular work related conference?  Professional dues?  Additional vacation time?  (My sister has been hugely successful with the last--she's at 8 weeks in a company that has a policy of maximum vacation of 4 weeks).

[capital]

Had you already given them a salary range? For instance, if you had said earlier that you wanted $75,000 - $85,000, and they offered $85,000, it's going to look a little greedy if you ask for $90,000.

I already offered my target salary in a somewhat unexpected post-interview phone call, which they exceeded (I had left the office and was wandering around the neighborhood to decompress, and it turned out their recruiter had planned to meet me but was in a meeting).

The company offering this job is a mid-stage startup, so I am not sure if they offer 401(k) matching-- their benefits list says they offer "401k", and I have worked at other successful startups that haven't offered matching. They offer the good/evil "unlimited" vacation policy, which doesn't seem particularly negotiable. Advanced degrees generally don't offer a big advantage in software engineering, so I don't think tuition reimbursement would be valuable to me at this point.

I am thinking, then, that it would be a productive tactic to figure out whether they offer 401(k) matching, and, if not, ask for an amount that would make up for that-- perhaps a few thousand?

[mustachecat]

I mean, as long as you're nice about it, no one's going to rescind a salary offer just because you asked for a little more. But if they've already exceeded your target, be gracious and understanding if they say no.

[Chris]

As you said, SW engineers are in-demand. Definitely negotiate: they're not going to change their mind because you asked a question. You might consider leaving the salary alone, and asking for equity or a sign-on bonus to compensate you for xyz benefit you're losing from your current employer.

[dragoncar]

As said above, they won't rescind as long as you are tactful.  In this case, it sounds like some kind of stock incentive could be a point of negotiation.

[AccidentalMiser]

I applied for a job with a utility company in 2006.  Nailed the interview, was offered about what I expected.  We were ready to move (much closer to family, much better weather, similar cost of living) but I very politely asked for about 3% more than they had offered.

They said they get back to me.  When I didn't hear for a week, I called them.  They said, "We are no longer interested in your services.  Goodbye."

Since then, I have been less than enthusiastic about negotiating.  If you want the job and are happy with the offer, take it.  If you have other options and losing this job won't break your heart, counter. 

Given the conditions you stated, I'd ask for a little more.

[dharmon]

Wow. I expected way better advice from the MMM forum. Apparently there are a bunch of pussycats here
who don't mind skipping lattes but won't ask for a higher salary easily worth much more than that.
Yes, consider this a group face punch.

Basically, if they haven't told you "no", you are leaving money on the table. Nobody is going to get
pissed at you for asking for more money. At worst, they might be mildly amused if you asked for
something truly ridiculous (like 50k more than they offered). And they certainly won't rescind the
offer.

If you feel awkward asking for more money because of the range you gave them, then ask for
more a) guaranteed bonus, b) signing bonus, c) options, or d) RSUs. In a mid-stage startup the last
two in particular could be valuable down the line.

[projekt]

They said they get back to me.  When I didn't hear for a week, I called them.  They said, "We are no longer interested in your services.  Goodbye."

So, lesson learned. Keep them in the room. Especially do not do the negotiation over e-mail.

[NYD3030]

I applied for a job with a utility company in 2006.  Nailed the interview, was offered about what I expected.  We were ready to move (much closer to family, much better weather, similar cost of living) but I very politely asked for about 3% more than they had offered.

They said they get back to me.  When I didn't hear for a week, I called them.  They said, "We are no longer interested in your services.  Goodbye."

Since then, I have been less than enthusiastic about negotiating.  If you want the job and are happy with the offer, take it.  If you have other options and losing this job won't break your heart, counter. 

Given the conditions you stated, I'd ask for a little more.

Man... the utility industry... ugh.  Well, that sucks.  I assumed that occasionally this happens when you ask for more but I've never actually been given an example of it.  Hope you found a place closer to home that wasn't offended at you looking out for yourself.

[projekt]

Here is the negotiation advice I learned. It basically comes from "Getting To Yes" by Fisher and Ury.

1. You need a Basic Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement (BATNA)

The BATNA is some other option so you know what you have to lose. If this is the only job on your horizon, you will not have any negotiating power. You don't reveal the BATNA.

2. Prioritize what is important to you.

You can assign points to everything. The other negotiator has their own priorities. Win-win is created where the things you prioritize are low priorities for the other side. For example: they may want occasional weekend work. Perhaps that doesn't bother you but you want 4 weeks vacation, and that's no big deal to them, provided it is nonconsecutive. There is room to negotiate.

3. Negotiate a deal, not each individual item.

The offer letter is a package proposal. You have salary, benefits, vacation, PTO, presence hours, travel required, ±stock options, ±retirement plan. They are probably most concerned about salary and pushing on that lever alone will be difficult. But you may find that they will trade off on other things. Maybe you can take Fridays off every other week in exchange for $5000 less salary. Maybe they'll promise to educate you in management, or whatever. Be creative. Fringe benefits are another thing. Cell phone, car, etc.

4. Agree at the outset to attempt to find a deal and stay until you have one

You don't want to end up walking away. You already have a deal, and you're just perfecting it, so tell them that at the outset. You don't need to go into it playing everything from the vest.

5. Explore their priorities.

You can't predict what's important to them. Ask them, find out what they would change about the deal to improve it for them.

I'm sure there's more from the book that I can't remember off the top of my head, but already you should see that it's not just about bargaining for salary.

[EMP]

I applied for a job with a utility company in 2006.  Nailed the interview, was offered about what I expected.  We were ready to move (much closer to family, much better weather, similar cost of living) but I very politely asked for about 3% more than they had offered.

They said they get back to me.  When I didn't hear for a week, I called them.  They said, "We are no longer interested in your services.  Goodbye."

Since then, I have been less than enthusiastic about negotiating.  If you want the job and are happy with the offer, take it.  If you have other options and losing this job won't break your heart, counter. 

Given the conditions you stated, I'd ask for a little more.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet to me.  I don't think I'd want to work for someone that would get their panties in a twist over a politely worded request.  Still sucks though. 

[Mrs MM]

Yes, facepunches are probably deserved.  Thanks for the reminder.

However, I do know one or two business owners who would think differently about a potential employee if they were to negotiate an already generous offer.  But generally, you are right - the worst that can happen is they say no.

My feeling is that increases in salary should be due to performance.  Obviously there's a certain standard in each industry, as well as an expectation from the new employee, but if those are met (and exceeded, in this case), then take the job and later you can prove yourself through good old fashioned hard work.  If you've been there 3 months and are doing great, then by all means ask for an increase in salary. 

Now, excuse me while I go read some Ramit Sethi so he can tell me how wrong I really am.  ;)

[EMP]

Yes, facepunches are probably deserved.  Thanks for the reminder.

However, I do know one or two business owners who would think differently about a potential employee if they were to negotiate an already generous offer.  But generally, you are right - the worst that can happen is they say no.

My feeling is that increases in salary should be due to performance.  Obviously there's a certain standard in each industry, as well as an expectation from the new employee, but if those are met (and exceeded, in this case), then take the job and later you can prove yourself through good old fashioned hard work.  If you've been there 3 months and are doing great, then by all means ask for an increase in salary. 

Now, excuse me while I go read some Ramit Sethi so he can tell me how wrong I really am.  ;)

I feel like I have to negotiate harder as a female b/c the field is already stacked against me.  Also, it's kind of a game/art when you get right down to it.  How well you play it can say a lot about your people skills.

[MrMoneyMullet]

projekt is right - BATNA is very important (although I thought it stood for Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) - basically it's plan B if no deal is reached.

In an employment situation, it comes down to alternative employers (for you) or alternative employees (for them). A very strong position for you would be to already have a higher offer in hand from a competing firm. They would have a strong position if they could easily find another person with your skills, abilities, etc. I would think about your alternatives and their alternatives, and then decide how much more to request. Like others have said, you might get a lot more out of broadening the scope of the negotiation so it is about more than just the base salary.

I would definitely not be afraid or feel tacky for asking for more money, unless it is a special situation. This is a business arrangement and a company isn't going to keep you around if you aren't "profitable" for them, so I wouldn't feel bad about asking for more money. FWIW, my experiences have been in large organizations and I suppose it could be a different story if it's a small organization in which you have a personal relationship with the owner.

[Tyler]

I'm personally with MrsMM.  I've had many jobs and also interviewed/hired a few people.  IMO, it comes down to why you feel the need to negotiate.

If it's to be fairly compensated, then negotiation is totally expected by the employer.  They know when they are trying to get a deal.  But you should have evidence to back up your request (average salary/compensation in the industry, salary history, things you bring to the table that you know are rare, etc).  The key is communication.

If it's out of greed, then employers can pick up on that and be turned off by your motivations, especially if they've already shown good faith by making a strong offer up-front.   From the employer's side, I've interpreted outrageous demands not as negotiation but as the person not really wanting the job, and have immediately walked away from those people not because they weren't my first choice but because I didn't want to hire someone just not that into the position.  So when you do negotiate, be careful about the tone and messaging.  Remember, they interviewed many people who would be thrilled to get the same offer.  Setting the money aside, there's a psychological side to hiring as well.

Personally, if you know it's a fair offer I'd take it.  Be enthusiastic and work hard, and your new employer will recognize your efforts and good attitude when it's time to divvy up work and raises later. 

[bogart]

If the offer is higher than the range you specified, I'd negotiate on something else (PTO, flex time, nice laptop, good parking space bike rack..., delayed start date to allow you some vacation before put your nose to the grindstone), but I'd definitely negotiate.

I've also never heard of someone making a (real, formal) job offer that wasn't in writing, with a specified "accept by" date.  I suppose I live in a sheltered world, but having that (an offer letter, with an accept by date) is insurance if (when!) you do negotiate and your request isn't accepted, and you have no better alternative. 

Your job is going to involve a written contract.  Ask for the terms in writing and a date (it doesn't have to be and probably shouldn't be a) by which they need your commitment.

[sheepstache]

YES.  FOR GOD'S SAKE YES.

My feeling is that increases in salary should be due to performance.  Obviously there's a certain standard in each industry, as well as an expectation from the new employee, but if those are met (and exceeded, in this case), then take the job and later you can prove yourself through good old fashioned hard work.  If you've been there 3 months and are doing great, then by all means ask for an increase in salary. 

Now, excuse me while I go read some Ramit Sethi so he can tell me how wrong I really am.  ;)

I feel like I have to negotiate harder as a female b/c the field is already stacked against me.  Also, it's kind of a game/art when you get right down to it.  How well you play it can say a lot about your people skills.

I have read several places that a significant reason professional women's earnings lag behind those of men is because women fail to ask for more when they initially take a job.  If they perform as well as their male colleagues, they get equal raises, but that means they never catch up.

They said they get back to me.  When I didn't hear for a week, I called them.  They said, "We are no longer interested in your services.  Goodbye."

Has it occurred to you since then they might not have been that great to work for?  Who just walks away from a negotiation without having the communication skills or manners to let the other party know?  Who ignores a polite email question for a week?


I like Getting to Yes but I also like this other book "Start with No" which is about, among other things, the importance of both sides just being comfortable with saying 'no' and not always pissing around trying to be win-win all the time.  This company will either say yes or they will say no and you will work from there.  http://www.columbia.edu/~mwm82/negotiation/StartWithNo.pdf

Another thing to consider is that weird little psychological quirk that makes people value something simply because they've paid for it.  Or like hazing rituals that make people value being in the frat or whatever more. If you come in with a higher salary there are higher expectations for you--which is what you want.  And if they aren't as impressed with you as they want to be, they are actually more likely to invest in improving you, through training or even casual mentoring.

And of course, if you're going to any more job interviews, now you know to raise your salary range :)

[Herbert Derp]

The same thing happened to me. I was expecting 75-85k and they offered.. more. I was so excited about how much better it was than the other offer that I had that it didn't really occur to me to negotiate. All I could think of was how great the offer was and that I could not do anything to jeopardize it. I mentioned my other offer to the recruiter but told her up front that it could not compete with their offer. At no prior point in the hiring process did I ever mention salary, my expectation was that they would offer what they wanted to when the time came.

Maybe I didn't research the company enough. I was just going off of what one of my friends who was hired six months before told me. Oh well, I got more than I expected and I didn't have an equivalent offer to fall back on in case trying to negotiate led to issues. I don't see that much to gain by whining about a possible missed opportunity--I just need to make sure I work harder and save more, and I will have plenty of money.

[jrhampt]

Always ask.  I've had good luck negotiating.  I will typically ask for around 10-15% more than the initial offer if I'm already pretty happy with what they're offering, so nothing too outrageous, but if I get close to it, I consider it a bonus.

[Mrs MM]

I'm personally with MrsMM.  I've had many jobs and also interviewed/hired a few people.  IMO, it comes down to why you feel the need to negotiate.

If it's to be fairly compensated, then negotiation is totally expected by the employer.  They know when they are trying to get a deal.  But you should have evidence to back up your request (average salary/compensation in the industry, salary history, things you bring to the table that you know are rare, etc).  The key is communication.

If it's out of greed, then employers can pick up on that and be turned off by your motivations, especially if they've already shown good faith by making a strong offer up-front.   From the employer's side, I've interpreted outrageous demands not as negotiation but as the person not really wanting the job, and have immediately walked away from those people not because they weren't my first choice but because I didn't want to hire someone just not that into the position.  So when you do negotiate, be careful about the tone and messaging.  Remember, they interviewed many people who would be thrilled to get the same offer.  Setting the money aside, there's a psychological side to hiring as well.

Personally, if you know it's a fair offer I'd take it.  Be enthusiastic and work hard, and your new employer will recognize your efforts and good attitude when it's time to divvy up work and raises later.

Well said, Tyler.  This is essentially what I was trying to get at but you stated it much better than me.  :)

[CanuckExpat]

So I wish I could find a reference for this quick, but I remember a discussion that pointed out that in negotiations everyone tends to come out happier if you DON'T accept the first offer.
It was along the lines of if you do accept the first offer because you are happy with it, the other person will be thinking they could have offered less. If you negotiate even slightly, everyone comes out of the deal happier. Maybe someone with better googling skills could find the a reference and the proper term.

[projekt]

BATNA is very important (although I thought it stood for Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement) - basically it's plan B if no deal is reached.

Right you are. Silly brain.

[Tyler]

My personal approach is to determine ahead of time what salary will unequivocally make me happy (allowing me to focus on the merits of the work alone) and -- i know this seems crazy -- I ask for it.  If they grossly lowball me knowing my reasoning, I thank them for the offer but decline.  If they meet my request, great!  Usually if their offer is close but a little below, they'll go out of their way to offer other concessions to make it up to me and I can meet them in the middle. 

The most important thing is to convince them in the interview they need you, and at that point the pressure is on them to make you happy.

Taking the "whatever they offer + 10%" approach will satisfy your immediate negotiating ego, but that will wear off quickly because it doesn't address your deeper sense of self-worth relative to your career. 

[Beaker]

I tend to think you should always negotiate. It's unlikely that the employer offered you their best deal - that would've left them no room to negotiate! But as mentioned, consider things other than money.

At pre-IPO tech companies, options and/or SARs (stock appreciation rights) are usually highly negotiable. Just remember that options are like tickets to a crappy lottery - they almost certainly won't pay off, if they do it almost certainly won't be for mega-millions. Value them accordingly.

Other things you might negotiate for:
1) paid parking spot, or bus pass, or bike share pass. Wait, this is MMM, reverse that order.
2) Gym membership
3) Yearly training/conference/book/general education budget
4) Yearly equipment budget. Quad-monitors and SSDs ain't cheap!
5) A nice chair. You know you're going to use it.
6) Right to work remotely/from home, if that appeals to you
7) If you're in the Denver area, a job for your bestest friends on the MMM forum ;)

[NumberJohnny5]

See, in this scenario, I think negotiation kinda already happened. You gave them a number, they matched/exceeded it. We're not talking about making the second move...it's the third move at least.

Perhaps you shouldn't have thrown a number out there first (the first one to blink loses?), but at this point it's irrelevant.

Me...I have a rough idea of what I want. If the offer is fair, take it. If it's close, tell them so. If they're so far off base it's not even funny, just decline.

And definitely look at the entire picture. I know some people that absolutely demand 100% guaranteed hours (should note that my experience in negotiating contracts is with my wife's contracts as a travel nurse). Either you guarantee all 36 hours per week, or they won't even consider. Or there better be absolutely zero penalty for terminating the contract early. Etc. Me, I try to be more flexible. So, you won't guarantee 36hrs a week, how about 72hrs every two weeks (yes, it's possible they'll say no to 36hrs/wk but yes to 72hrs/2wks). Or perhaps ask for $5/hr more, but agree to be called off once every two weeks. They won't budge on the normal hourly rate, but they'll agree to start overtime at hour 36 and pay a higher rate for that.

Anyways...in this particular case, you gave a salary and they met that. I wouldn't (personally) ask for a higher salary at this point. Perhaps an extra week or two of vacation, a higher 401k match, a company car, a company cellphone, telecommute one day a week, higher overtime pay (if it's an hourly position), etc. No, I wouldn't act like I was greedy, but if it's a job that requires a lot of driving then the company car is a fair request, or if a mobile phone is necessary you can ask for that; if there's lots of busy times followed by slumps then extra vacation time (during the slow times) can actually help productivity, etc.

But that's just me...Mr. stay at home dad who has negotiated some contracts for his wife, but not for himself (I really really need to ask for better working conditions).

[Mrs MM]

So what did you do?  How did it turn out?  Do tell!  :)

[capital]

I did decide to accept the offer as-is, as it exceeded the target salary I offered (I believe I offered a 10k range, and the salary was the top end of that range), and the benefits package was already superlative-- most of the benefits it was suggested I negotiate for were already included. I also confirmed that the salary was on the high side for the title on Glassdoor. I did not ask for more stock options, as I treat them as lotto tickets for financial purposes.

Thanks for the advice y'all-- the Ramit Sethi material about extracting a range from the recruiter will be very useful for future job negotiations.

[Tyler]

Congrats on the new gig!

[JanMN]

As I look back, I'm especially glad I did a lot of different things in my 20s - jobs (dishwasher, park ranger, overseas volunteer, writer, grad student), travel, met a lot of different people, had very few commitments - didn't save much, but didn't go into debt either.  I still get a smile on my face when I think about that decade.  I didn't get a salary, marry or own a house until my 30s, but I'm on target to retire in a few years in my mid-40s.  No regrets.