Japan Needs to Grow a Mustache

[milesdividendmd]

But how about taking it one step further?  Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.

Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)

I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.

[Poorman]

But how about taking it one step further?  Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.

Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)

I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.

What about ISIS?  They represent a thousand year old culture.  Should we not judge them for cutting infidels' heads off and raping women and children?  I'm just wondering where you draw the line on this?

[milesdividendmd]

But how about taking it one step further?  Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.

Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)

I'd say "no way" but that would be judgemental.

What about ISIS?  They represent a thousand year old culture.  Should we not judge them for cutting infidels' heads off and raping women and children?  I'm just wondering where you draw the line on this?

Nice premise: ISIS represents a 1000-year-old culture!

But I agree that judging actions is part and parcel of humanity. Personally I'm against rape and murder.  They are counter productive and unpleasant.  I am also in favor of legal judgments when it comes to crimes and civil matters.  Such structure makes for a happy populous as well as a more productive economy.

Judging entire cultures on the other hand is neither useful nor happiness inducing, in my opinion. Although I do suppose that it leads to a certain amount of pleasant self-satisfied smugness in some people.

[milesdividendmd]

Japan's culture is very different about this. They value time spent at work much more than time actually working. Sleeping at your desk is considered noble; going home and sleeping at home so you can be more productive is... not.

Until they fix that, you can blame company and employee equally, because they together share the culture of expecting and doing this crazy shit.

Doesn't really concern me - it's pretty nice that they're buying our tech instead of the other way around. They can work themselves to death in order to buy the shit that pays my salary if they want.

I spent a couple weeks temping in the credit office of a Japanese company here in Manhattan. It was one of the most fascinating work experiences of my life.

1. The office was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, all the time.
2. Everyone kept absolutely immaculate desks.
3. There was this sort of perverse competition about who would stay latest. Temps are paid hourly and most companies cut you off at 40 hours a week, because they pay quite a high rate to your agency already and don't want to pay time and a half on top of that. I could get as much OT as I wanted, as long as I was at my desk looking busy.
4. My bosses were very confused when I'd come ask for more work.
5. People were much, much more formal than in the US. Nobody slouched at their desks. People presented their business card to you with two hands and you accepted it two handed. Much more formal body language on the whole.
6. They had the most organized supply closets I have ever seen.

These are terrific observations.

When I think of stereotypically Japanese qualities, that I observe when I am there I think of ...

Neatness/organization. Even homeless people keep their spots under bridges immaculate, with ersatz landscaping!

And

A high tolerance for boredom.

I have neither of these qualities and do I admire them greatly.

[Poorman]

Nice premise: ISIS represents a 1000-year-old culture!

But I agree that judging actions is part and parcel of humanity. Personally I'm against rape and murder.  They are counter productive and unpleasant.  I am also in favor of legal judgments when it comes to crimes and civil matters.  Such structure makes for a happy populous as well as a more productive economy.

Judging entire cultures on the other hand is neither useful nor happiness inducing, in my opinion. Although I do suppose that it leads to a certain amount of pleasant self-satisfied smugness in some people.

I think you've taken some of the contents of this thread too personally.  Every culture has room for improvement.  One of the ways we can learn is by studying what other societies are doing right and what they are doing wrong.  You're choosing to view that as judgement, but nobody is saying Japanese culture on the whole is inferior.  I would imagine a great many people commenting have a high regard for Japanese culture.

The article is pointing out problems (working 20 hour days, death by suicide) that are counter productive and unpleasant.  If you care about Japanese culture and society then you should be concerned about this.  There have been many cultures throughout history that have self-destructed due to their unbending commitment to values that were not in their best long-term interests.

[JamesAt15]

Marriage for Japanese women seems like a raw deal. It would actually be less work for the women if they were expected to quit work after marriage and stay home.

Generally speaking, they are.

From my observations the majority of japanese women leave their jobs when they have kids and this is treated as the norm, with it being the exception for a mother to return to work after maternity leave. Many mothers will look for part-time work after the kids have reached school age and their schedules stabilize with some blocks of available time.

There were a number of stories in the news somewhat recently about increasing numbers of young japanese women aspiring to be housewives instead of career women.

Here's one from the BBC, quoting the study that got people talking.

Even more surprisingly, the number of married women in their 20s who think women should stay at home and focus on housework has risen from 35.7% in 2003 to 41.6% in 2013. That's according to the National Survey on Family by the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare.

Two thirds of them think mothers shouldn't be back at work until the children are three years old, and about the same percentage of women give up their jobs after having their first child.

[JamesAt15]

The work culture is a very large reason why I don't want to stay in Japan permanently and am leaving it soon. That and the fact that it's very hard for a foreigner to get to stay permanently. If I could stay permanently and actually be FIRE'd (meaning not having to work for the work visa), then I'd be OK with staying. Work visa is the easiest way to be in Japan if you're a foreigner and not married to a Japanese citizen. I don't know of a way to be FIRE here without being a Japanese citizen or married to one.

It depends. Permanent residency is apparently quite a bit easier to get now than it used to be, but being married to a Japanese national helps a lot. But I have heard of a number of single or married-to-non-Japanese people getting permanent residency, and a friend of mine just did it herself. Basically, have a stable, professional job, pay your taxes, avoid trouble with the law, appear like a reasonable, upstanding citizen, repeat for ten years or so, then apply for PR. Someone working and saving for FIRE is probably doing most of these already.

I got my PR after living here about ten years, but granted, I married a Japanese, owned property, and was pretty obviously here for the long haul. I'm probably not going to be retiring very early, but it is nice to have the option.

[cerebus]

Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.

[obstinate]

To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.

[Poorman]

To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.

Spot on.

To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization.  That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).

Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.

[milesdividendmd]

To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.

Spot on.

To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization.  That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).

Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.

So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness?  (cultural expectations aside.)

But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?

The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own.  To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.

[LennStar]

The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own.  To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.

It's just research results from countless studies, admittedly almost exclusivly in wealthy countries, because there are the scientists and you cant test what happens if you downsize with families that try to get the money together to have something to eat.

[obstinate]

The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own.  To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.

You don't think you have insight into what makes other people happy? That's really surprising to me. Most humans have a trait called empathy that allows them to make reasonably good guesses about what will make other people happy. Doesn't always work but it's a damn sight better than flipping a coin. The lifestyle of the Japanese professional does not seem broadly conducive to happiness.

No need to take my empathy's word for it, though. There's also a nifty thing called science that can help us zero in on the truth as well. Japanese people are comparatively unhappy, given their country's wealth and relative freedom from baser forms of human suffering.

[cerebus]

To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.

Spot on.

To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization.  That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).

Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.

So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness?  (cultural expectations aside.)

But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?

The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own.  To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.

Your avatar is a photo of (presumably) you standing by a lake holding a fish. Clearly you value recreational time as a factor of happiness for yourself at least. If we could all stop being so tippy-toey about cultural norms there might be less of the sort of thing that should be banned universally, like female circumcision, gulags, imprisonment and stoning of rape victims, and even culturally expected 100-hour work weeks.

[milesdividendmd]

I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.

This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.

[cerebus]

I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.

This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.

Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.

[milesdividendmd]

I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.

This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.

Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.

You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.

[cerebus]

I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.

This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.

Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.

You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.

Nobody is saying that they know what makes other people happy, I don't even know where you're getting this idea from. I do know that cultural norms shift over time because they become outmoded, or irrelevant to current living conditions, or deleterious to the wellbeing of the citizenry, or simply proven to be wrong. Would it be a bad idea to hold Japan's work ethic up to some scrutiny?

[milesdividendmd]

I have no problem theorizing about what makes me happy personally. I am a mustachian. I enjoy free time and walking and working on lots of different projects at once. I like fishing and long meals and craft cocktails and baseball and Elvis Costello.

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Clearly what makes me happy is not what makes Elon Musk, or snoop dog happy.

This is a lesson you should have learned in preschool. It's not rocket science.

Elon Musk, or Snoop Dogg, or you, are individuals pursuing an internal vision of self-fulfillment. That is markedly different from an entire set of cultural norms that pressurize individuals to conform to a set of expectations unrelated to what they would choose for themselves.

You should re read the thread. In this tangent you are arguing that you know what makes other people, and that it is the same as what makes you happy.

Nobody is saying that they know what makes other people happy, I don't even know where you're getting this idea from. I do know that cultural norms shift over time because they become outmoded, or irrelevant to current living conditions, or deleterious to the wellbeing of the citizenry, or simply proven to be wrong. Would it be a bad idea to hold Japan's work ethic up to some scrutiny?

Re read post 65. Keep up dude!

[Poorman]

So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness?  (cultural expectations aside.)

But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?

The whole statement presumes that you have insight into anyone's happiness but your own.  To me this seems quite a presumption indeed.

Did you read the article that started this thread?  I'm not presuming anything.  The lady featured has the symptoms of depression.

[milesdividendmd]

I'm responding to what you wrote specifically.  Not the article.

[obstinate]

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

No, solipsism a philosophical idea that you are the only thing that exists.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Yea, and putting myself in Japanese people's shoes, even accounting for their different values, their culture seems pretty screwed up and liable to have a negative effect on happiness. Clearly they agree with me, given the science I posted, which you conveniently ignored.

[obstinate]

Honestly, I don't believe that you think it is wrong to judge other people's cultures and value systems. I believe you are confused, and you know that there are adages that say "don't judge," and you haven't stopped to think about whether those adages make sense. If you did believe what you're saying, you'd be one of the people who come in here and say, "I can't believe that MMM would say that spending money is a bad idea and is likely to make me less happy."

Because that is exactly what this site's founder does in most of his articles. He makes a value judgment and says, "This is better than that." Not in the sense of being intrinsically better in a spiritual/moral sense. But in a sense of "likely to improve the happiness of a human being." Who, after all, all come from the same evolutionary-psychological origin.

We humans aren't all the same, but we're similar. Most of us want shelter, food, companionship, free-time, self-actualization. I'm sure you can find someone who would enjoy being starved to death. But most people want food. I'm sure you could find someone who enjoys being shackled to the office fourteen hours a day until the boss decides to go home. But most do not, and culture doesn't really change that so much. If a culture enables its more powerful members to starve people to death, I'm gonna call that out. Same with one that encourages widespread overwork.

The truth of what I'm saying is clearly indicated by numerous studies showing that the Japanese are the least happy bunch of industrialized people in the entire world.

[milesdividendmd]

But it's not empathy to theorize that everyone shares my preferences and values. It's solipsism.

No, solipsism a philosophical idea that you are the only thing that exists.

Empathy is actually quite the opposite of what "obstinate" describes. It is the ability to put yourself someone else's shoes.  Someone who is not like you who has different history and values.

Yea, and putting myself in Japanese people's shoes, even accounting for their different values, their culture seems pretty screwed up and liable to have a negative effect on happiness. Clearly they agree with me, given the science I posted, which you conveniently ignored.

Oh did you think I ignored your "science?" 

If by science you mean a japan times article on "the 2015 world happiness report," then you should thank me for not pointing out that you haven't the foggiest notion of what science is. 

[obstinate]

That and the OECD better life index, the UN's 2013 world happiness report, etc. And any tabulation of rates of depression and suicide in the industrial world. Actually, pretty much every survey or study on happiness or happiness-related matters that I've been able to lay my hands on.

I'd love to hear what science is and how it excludes studies like these.

[cerebus]

To be fair, mmm is not solely about saving money and not buying things. It's about finding what's important in life and arranging your life such that you can do those things. In America, the barrier to that is often consumerism. In Japan, I'd guess it would far more often be toxic work cultures.

Spot on.

To me Mustachianism = happiness optimization.  That is why the grueling Japanese work environment resonates as a prime example of un-Mustachian living (cultural expectations aside).

Growing your savings, shunning consumerism, and retiring early are simply the natural side effects when you really drill down to what is important for your happiness.

So you clearly believe in a "one size fits all" approach to happiness?  (cultural expectations aside.)

But then why ignore cultural expectations which surely impact happiness for such a social animal as a human?

In this country young boys of a certain tribe still submit to barbaric circumcision rituals that endanger their lives and risk the health of their genitals. There might be some happiness derived from conformity to social norms, but it doesn't mean those norms shouldn't be questioned and changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[milesdividendmd]

Go ahead cerebus, start the circumcision thread.

I dare you.

[cerebus]

Go ahead cerebus, start the circumcision thread.

I dare you.

I'm not anti-circumcision per se, but I am definitely anti-circumcision-with-sharp-stones.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/28/south-africa-circumcision

[Villanelle]

Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.

While it is certainly not as common, we have similar overwork in the States and no one has mandated it stop.  Husband consistently worked 100+ hours weeks at his last job. It was pretty brutal and I feared for his health.  His employer?  Uncle Sam.  This thread seems to ignore that similar conditions exist all over, including right in our [Americans'] backyard. 

Also, most Japanese women do leave the workforce after having children, at least for a while.  I wonder how many people in this thread have actually spent time in Japan or with Japanese people.  High tolerance for boredom?  As opposed to Americans who sit on the sofa for hours? 

[NoraLenderbee]

Fail to see any link between the article and stache growing. Japan really needs to mandate restrictions on overwork and reconsider toxic management expectations in company culture is more accurate. I was expecting to read about how indebted and consumerist the Japanese are, and it's nothing of the sort.

While it is certainly not as common, we have similar overwork in the States and no one has mandated it stop. 

Yup. The Europeans look at us the way we look at the Japanese--working all the time, no real vacations.

[mozar]

Well I mentioned that we have similar problems in the US (up thread somewhere).

Also wanted to say is that what ISIS is doing is saying that there were certain things that were happening during the time of the prophet Muhammed therefore the prophet approved of them, which is not the case. Islam isn't about raping women and beheading people.

I think I finally understand how the OP, in a round about way, wants Japan to grow a mustache, although Japanese unhappiness stems from different soco-political issues. Go against the grain of workaholic-ism and all that.

[obstinate]

Yup. The Europeans look at us the way we look at the Japanese--working all the time, no real vacations.

And, as an American, they're freakin' right. This is one place the US is dead wrong, one among many. :)

[rocketpj]

But how about taking it one step further?  Let's simply resolve to judge ourselves harshly and to judge others not at all.

Can you give me a little wiggle room to judge the guy living in public housing, using food stamps and
driving a car with $3,500 of wheels and tires? :-)

Depends, do you know his life story?  Maybe he can't find work but scrounged those wheels up in exchange for some labour.  Maybe they were a gift from a relative in better financial circumstances and are the one thing that helps him to hold his head up when he goes outside.  Maybe they are all that's left from before he fell on hard times.  Maybe 1000 other things.

Maybe or even probably not, but we don't really know.  Since we don't know, how about we don't get all smug and critical of what other people are doing?  The 'I saw a poor person with an iPhone so all social programs are bullshit' concept is just lazy.