Author Topic: It's Not "Luck"  (Read 23639 times)

DS

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2018, 08:07:21 AM »
Though somewhat anecdotal and not super scientific, I'd recommend this book for this topic:

Outliers: The Story of Success

https://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017930

PhilB

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2018, 08:33:05 AM »
I'm surprised at the postings on this topic by people who believe more strongly than I do in the power of luck to attain FIRE.

I thought we were all Mustachians here? One of my favorite posts is "A Millionaire is Made 10 Bucks at a Time". That's how I did it - 10 bucks here, 10 bucks there. It adds up.

Maybe MMM will write an April Fool's day post - "FIRE: Only if you are LUCKY".
People don't believe you get to FIRE by being lucky, they believe most get there by being hard working AND lucky.  Most on here are lucky to be born into a first world country at a time when the economy allows people to earn more than their day to day needs and has opportunities to invest the excess.  They are generally lucky to have been born with above-average intelligence and maths skills and without disabilities (extra kudos to any disabled mustachians out there).  They are lucky not to have had their plans derailed by health or family issues.  They are lucky to have found appropriate job opportunities, etc, etc.  None of that luck will generally get you to FIRE on its own, indeed most people with the same luck don't put in the hard yards to get the same result.  Without thjat luck though vanishingly few would get there no matter how hard they worked.  Some of us believe in recognising this and showing a bit of humility.

gerardc

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2018, 08:41:44 AM »
Three simple truths:
  • You generally don't get to FIRE without large elements of BOTH luck and hard work.
  • Everyone tends to overestimate the importance of luck in other people's success.
  • Everyone tends to underestimate the importance of luck in their own success - "a self made man and proud of his handiwork."

Citation needed. You talk like you have data showing the distribution of people who overestimate luck, or that you can even measure luck in the first place, and that you can give average and tendencies based on this. But you're just spewing BS! Wake up

Luck12

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2018, 08:45:04 AM »
[quote author=SwordGuy link=topic=86511.msg1866543#msg1866543
One of the reasons the USA no longer has the high economic mobility rating it used to have is because more and more of our population won't get off their duffs to improve their situation.  They are too busy whining about how hard it is.
[/quote]

I was talking about econ mobility vs other countries.  Most of the developed world ascribes success to luck moreso than the U.S, but they have higher economic mobility so I doubt the declining relative mobility has much if anything to do with "people whining". 

Luck12

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2018, 08:47:22 AM »
Citation needed. You talk like you have data showing the distribution of people who overestimate luck, or that you can even measure luck in the first place, and that you can give average and tendencies based on this. But you're just spewing BS! Wake up

And where the fuck are your citations?  Hell you don't even reason your way to your conclusions.  All I see is a lot of ridiculous, arrogant dogma coming from you, see your post about how "Anyone can FIRE". 

Not directed at anyone specifically, just a general comment:  It's obvious you can tell a lot about someone's character by how they talk about this subject.  If you ascribe nothing to luck in regards to FIRE/success in general, how likely is it for you to be a compassionate, patient, understanding person?   
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:51:18 AM by Luck12 »

gerardc

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2018, 08:53:05 AM »
Citation needed. You talk like you have data showing the distribution of people who overestimate luck, or that you can even measure luck in the first place, and that you can give average and tendencies based on this. But you're just spewing BS! Wake up

And where the fuck are your citations?  Hell you don't even reason your way to your conclusions.  All I see is a lot of ridiculous, arrogant dogma coming from you, see your post about how "Anyone can FIRE". 

Not directed at anyone specifically, just a general comment:  It's obvious you can tell a lot about someone's character by how they talk about this subject.  If you ascribe nothing to luck in regards to FIRE/success in general, how likely is it for you to be a compassionate, patient, understanding person?   

Yeah but I use simple language that makes it clear those are my opinions, not try-hard scientific language presenting them as cold hard truth.

OurTown

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2018, 09:01:37 AM »
Meh.  There is some luck.  There is also taking the opportunity, positioning yourself to get the opportunity, gathering the skills to capitalize on the opportunity, etc.  So good/bad luck is outside of our control, like the weather or the stock market.  What we do with luck when it comes our way is within our control.  Many people let luck (read "opportunity") pass them by.  Others of us make conscious choices and grab onto whatever opportunities come our way. 

I've had bad luck and good luck at different points in my life.  Thanks be to Zeus that I have had enough good luck to make something of myself.

PhilB

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2018, 09:14:02 AM »
Three simple truths:
  • You generally don't get to FIRE without large elements of BOTH luck and hard work.
  • Everyone tends to overestimate the importance of luck in other people's success.
  • Everyone tends to underestimate the importance of luck in their own success - "a self made man and proud of his handiwork."
Citation needed. You talk like you have data showing the distribution of people who overestimate luck, or that you can even measure luck in the first place, and that you can give average and tendencies based on this. But you're just spewing BS! Wake up
The tendency to attribute good things about ourselves / bad things about others to things within the person's control and to attribute our own bad outcomes / others' good outcomes to external influences such as luck is one that has been extensively confirmed by experiment.  Try googling 'self serving bias'.

Scandium

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2018, 09:16:30 AM »
I've started mentioning to people that I am probably going to retire in May. The response I ALWAYS get is "You're lucky!" This makes me laugh! The people who say this have cable packages with thousands of channels, go on vacations that cost several thousand dollars, eat out every week-end (in the case of one family - every night), send their children to expensive after-school/summer "enrichment" activities ... etc. Typical spendy Americans.

Excepting cable, I don't see the other examples as entirely horrible? Spending money on vacations, eating out once a week and privileging education and enrichment to your kids? Those are things I value and don't mind spending money on. Money I saved by not doing (IMO) more stupid stuff, like $40k cars, iPhones every year and going out to lunch daily.

Would I rather retire a bit later and spend a week in Rome? Or see the rainforest before it's cut down, or Venice before it falls into the sea? Heck yes, I'll work longer for that! Same with providing activities that make my kids more rounded, prepared and also probably able to earn a higher salary in the future, it's called investment.

Scandium

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2018, 09:21:01 AM »

FINate

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2018, 09:24:27 AM »
Luck, fortune, $DEITY's blessing...whatever you call it, I agree, it plays a huge part in FIRE. Why was I born to middle class parents and a stable home life in the US vs. abject poverty and disfunction? Don't know, so I don't dwell on it too much. However, almost everyone I interact with on a day-to-day basis has had about the same baseline level of luck in life.

And yet, even within this lucky subset there's a large variance in outcomes. IMO, what really matters is what you do with what you've been given. Some "make their own luck" by working hard and making wise choices. Others squander opportunity and fritter away their money. I do think MMM has something to say about personal agency for the large number of "average" folks who are actually incredibly well off (historically, and compared to much of the world). For most FIRE is in reach, or at the very least a much better life focused on what really matters instead of being a slave to consumerism and debt.

I don't usually bother to correct peers who think I'm just "lucky" - often their fatalism is just a coping mechanism for their own poor choices, and the idea that they might have any control over their circumstances is discomforting. I'd rather not waste my time so I just nod my head and move on. More than happy to explain it to those who are genuinely interested and open to a different way of living.   

FINate

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2018, 09:30:33 AM »
I've started mentioning to people that I am probably going to retire in May. The response I ALWAYS get is "You're lucky!" This makes me laugh! The people who say this have cable packages with thousands of channels, go on vacations that cost several thousand dollars, eat out every week-end (in the case of one family - every night), send their children to expensive after-school/summer "enrichment" activities ... etc. Typical spendy Americans.

Excepting cable, I don't see the other examples as entirely horrible? Spending money on vacations, eating out once a week and privileging education and enrichment to your kids? Those are things I value and don't mind spending money on. Money I saved by not doing (IMO) more stupid stuff, like $40k cars, iPhones every year and going out to lunch daily.

Would I rather retire a bit later and spend a week in Rome? Or see the rainforest before it's cut down, or Venice before it falls into the sea? Heck yes, I'll work longer for that! Same with providing activities that make my kids more rounded, prepared and also probably able to earn a higher salary in the future, it's called investment.

That's fine. You're making an informed, thoughtful decision about your priorities, choosing to work longer to have these things now. That's different than someone who believes those who FIRE are simply lucky.

Luck12

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2018, 11:19:19 AM »
Yeah but I use simple language that makes it clear those are my opinions, not try-hard scientific language presenting them as cold hard truth.

No you use simpleminded bullshit language as a presentment of truth without an ounce of reasoning backing it up.     

"FIRE = accessible to almost everyone, not luck".     

PhilB

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2018, 12:27:35 PM »
Yeah but I use simple language that makes it clear those are my opinions, not try-hard scientific language presenting them as cold hard truth.

No you use simpleminded bullshit language as a presentment of truth without an ounce of reasoning backing it up.     

"FIRE = accessible to almost everyone, not luck".     
If I'd been trying hard to use scientific language I would have used scientific language, quoted studies, discussed the parts of the brain they'd seen activity in when studying the phenomenon, etc, but that would all have seemed a bit OTT and off topic for something I thought most well educated people already knew about to some extent.  If it had just been an opinion I would have framed it as such.  Would you also like to talk about the Swedish study of fraternal vs monozygotic twins that showed the large genetic component in financial behaviour too?  Or would you prefer to just spout bullshit and try and shout people down?

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2018, 12:50:29 PM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck. <etc>

If you saw a super physically fit person, would you go up to give them the same sort of nonsense about "luck" being the reason for their fitness? 

Sure, they were "lucky," if you take it to a ridiculous level.  They have two legs, they haven't been hit by a speeding locomotive, that their patents didn't keep them locked in a dungeon their entire lives- they are "lucky."

But I really doubt that even you would attribute their six-pack abs to "luck."

Because the real reason they are super fit and most of us aren't, is far less because of "luck" than because they were up at 6 AM getting in a workout while their less fit peers in bed tapping the snooze alarm.

By the same token, most of us who are financially successful have had no more "luck" than the broke people who live all around us.  We have simply been more disciplined than most, just as that athlete has been more disciplined.

So why do so many who would never denigrate the accomplishments of the physically fit so often try to "pooh pooh" the accomplishments of those who are fiscally fit?

The fiscally fit, just like the physically fit, should be held up as role models, not have their accomplishments dismissed with the intellectually lazy "lucky" argument.

Congratulations to the OP for working so hard to be "lucky." :)

Scandium

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2018, 01:13:46 PM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck. <etc>

If you saw a super physically fit person, would you go up to give them the same sort of nonsense about "luck" being the reason for their fitness? 

Sure, they were "lucky," if you take it to a ridiculous level.  They have two legs, they haven't been hit by a speeding locomotive, that their patents didn't keep them locked in a dungeon their entire lives- they are "lucky."

But I really doubt that even you would attribute their six-pack abs to "luck."

Because the real reason they are super fit and most of us aren't, is far less because of "luck" than because they were up at 6 AM getting in a workout while their less fit peers in bed tapping the snooze alarm.

By the same token, most of us who are financially successful have had no more "luck" than the broke people who live all around us.  We have simply been more disciplined than most, just as that athlete has been more disciplined.

So why do so many who would never denigrate the accomplishments of the physically fit so often try to "pooh pooh" the accomplishments of those who are fiscally fit?

The fiscally fit, just like the physically fit, should be held up as role models, not have their accomplishments dismissed with the intellectually lazy "lucky" argument.

Congratulations to the OP for working so hard to be "lucky." :)

This is a funny example seeing as body shape is very strongly tied to genetics. Some people can get six-pack abs more or less by simply avoiding eating huge amounts, others can do 100 situps a day and get nothing. Sure, if someone is super skinny or massively obese it's clear they're doing something wrong. But outwardly visible "fitness" is mostly genetics. Someone can be extremely strong and fit and look rather flabby. If someone works out daily they'd probably look fit, but if someone looks fit don't mean they work hard for it..

I can attest to this as I think look rather fit, but I've never rally worked out that hard.

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2018, 01:20:54 PM »
Citation needed. You talk like you have data showing the distribution of people who overestimate luck, or that you can even measure luck in the first place, and that you can give average and tendencies based on this. But you're just spewing BS! Wake up

And where the fuck are your citations?  Hell you don't even reason your way to your conclusions.  All I see is a lot of ridiculous, arrogant dogma coming from you, see your post about how "Anyone can FIRE". 

Not directed at anyone specifically, just a general comment:  It's obvious you can tell a lot about someone's character by how they talk about this subject.  If you ascribe nothing to luck in regards to FIRE/success in general, how likely is it for you to be a compassionate, patient, understanding person?   

This, like the "luck" thing, is just another way to dismiss the success of others. 

The "luck" bit is only slightly more prominent than the "if you succeeded, you must be a heartless, souless, cheating bastard who tortures puppies" sort of dismissal of those who do well.

Many of us who grew up poor/lower middle class and worked so hard to become "lucky" know that not everyone has the same chance in life, and contribute time and money to charitable organizations that work to help people help themselves (we tend to donate to organizations that offer a "hand up" rather than a hand out).

Disclaimer:  no puppies* were harmed and no one was cheated on my way to becoming a multimillionaire.  Seriously.  I'm not evil.  I'm the multimillionaire next door.  I look and act like a pretty regular person.  I'm not plotting ways to cheat the poor...

*  We (myself and my heartless, soulless, "lucky" wife) give thousands of dollars and dozens of hours of volunteer time to animal shelters every year

Gyosho

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »

Many of us who grew up poor/lower middle class and worked so hard to become "lucky" know that not everyone has the same chance in life, and contribute time and money to charitable organizations that work to help people help themselves (we tend to donate to organizations that offer a "hand up" rather than a hand out).


Just for the record, for those of you who think I was born lucky and heartless:

Not one of my 4 grandparents graduated from HIGH SCHOOL.

I worked hard to PUT MYSELF through COLLEGE and GRADUATE SCHOOL.

I also, like Libertarian4321, now give generously to many charitable organizations that offer a "hand up".


PoutineLover

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2018, 01:31:35 PM »
I don't think people usually mean luck in the sense that you just blindly stumbled across success and ended up retired (although that can happen I suppose).
I think it's meant more in the sense of luck in getting opportunities that you were in a position to profit from, and that no major setbacks prevented you from reaching your goals.
Someone who retired early after being a successful lawyer for a decade most likely did work hard. But if they got that job because one of their parents already worked at their law firm, they were also lucky.
Someone who works out all the time and has a super fit body worked hard, yes. But someone else who works out all the time and then ends up paralyzed from an accident is unlucky.
I don't get why it's so hard for some successful people to admit that luck did play a role in their success. My life is playing out the way it is partly because of my actions, but partly because of circumstances. I've been lucky, and I've been prepared, it's not mutually exclusive. When I retire early and someone comments that I was lucky, I won't take that badly because while I recognize that my choices led me to that point, a lot of shit could have gone wrong to derail my plans but didn't.

Cromacster

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2018, 01:39:43 PM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck. <etc>

If you saw a super physically fit person, would you go up to give them the same sort of nonsense about "luck" being the reason for their fitness? 

Sure, they were "lucky," if you take it to a ridiculous level.  They have two legs, they haven't been hit by a speeding locomotive, that their patents didn't keep them locked in a dungeon their entire lives- they are "lucky."

But I really doubt that even you would attribute their six-pack abs to "luck."

Because the real reason they are super fit and most of us aren't, is far less because of "luck" than because they were up at 6 AM getting in a workout while their less fit peers in bed tapping the snooze alarm.

By the same token, most of us who are financially successful have had no more "luck" than the broke people who live all around us.  We have simply been more disciplined than most, just as that athlete has been more disciplined.

So why do so many who would never denigrate the accomplishments of the physically fit so often try to "pooh pooh" the accomplishments of those who are fiscally fit?

The fiscally fit, just like the physically fit, should be held up as role models, not have their accomplishments dismissed with the intellectually lazy "lucky" argument.

Congratulations to the OP for working so hard to be "lucky." :)

This is a funny example seeing as body shape is very strongly tied to genetics. Some people can get six-pack abs more or less by simply avoiding eating huge amounts, others can do 100 situps a day and get nothing. Sure, if someone is super skinny or massively obese it's clear they're doing something wrong. But outwardly visible "fitness" is mostly genetics. Someone can be extremely strong and fit and look rather flabby. If someone works out daily they'd probably look fit, but if someone looks fit don't mean they work hard for it..

I can attest to this as I think look rather fit, but I've never rally worked out that hard.

I feel the analogy holds pretty true.  If a person has the knowledge, discipline, and the dedication in the gym and more importantly in the kitchen, they can have the movie star body (or whatever body they desire within reasonable limits).

Good genetics is just the luck part of it.

Same as any person has the ability to learn, work hard, earn money, and save.

What socioeconomic status they are born into is the luck part.

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2018, 01:47:20 PM »

Many of us who grew up poor/lower middle class and worked so hard to become "lucky" know that not everyone has the same chance in life, and contribute time and money to charitable organizations that work to help people help themselves (we tend to donate to organizations that offer a "hand up" rather than a hand out).


Just for the record, for those of you who think I was born lucky and heartless:

Not one of my 4 grandparents graduated from HIGH SCHOOL.

I worked hard to PUT MYSELF through COLLEGE and GRADUATE SCHOOL.

I also, like Libertarian4321, now give generously to many charitable organizations that offer a "hand up".

My parents were "working poor" I guess.  Neither went to college.  I was the first in my extended family to go to college.

Uncle Sammy paid for most of my undergrad and grad school.  I worked to pay for the rest.

I was "lucky" that I got to work dirty construction jobs every summer*, getting my lungs filled with concrete dust every day (for $4/hour- what good fortune!) while others were vacationing.  And lucky to wash dishes at a greasy spoon diner during school breaks (3.35/hour- but at least I wasn't eating concrete).


* Except for the summer after my junior year, where I had the good luck to get a free trip to Ft. Bragg, NC and got to run around in 100 degree heat from 5 AM to dark (and beyond), earning about $1/hour.

OurTown

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2018, 01:58:46 PM »
As an infant, I was adopted into a loving and supportive family and I grew up on a farm.  They were kind of square, but that's okay.  I was "lucky" insofar as my upbringing allowed me the opportunity for college and career.  I did the work, but the fact that I had an opportunity that others did not necessarily have is "luck" or "good fortune."  I'm pretty successful, I have a high income, and we live a really nice suburban middle class quality of life.

Recently I have done genetic testing and genealogical research and I have discovered the identity of my birth parents and a handful of biological half brothers and sisters.  I share 25% of my genetics with each of these half siblings.  Some have had good luck or good opportunities, others have had less good opportunities.  Some have made good choices, others not.  I have a half sibling in the FBI, another half sibling who is retired Military Police, and another half sibling who manages a golf course.  Good luck and good choices.  I also have a half sibling who is a con artist with multiple bankruptcies and another half sibling with a history of substance abuse and a long criminal record.  Bad luck and bad choices. 

If I had had different circumstances, who is to say whether I would have been as successful as I am now? 

Scandium

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2018, 02:00:35 PM »
I feel the analogy holds pretty true.  If a person has the knowledge, discipline, and the dedication in the gym and more importantly in the kitchen, they can have the movie star body (or whatever body they desire within reasonable limits).

Good genetics is just the luck part of it.

Same as any person has the ability to learn, work hard, earn money, and save.

What socioeconomic status they are born into is the luck part.

But the point is they can't. Only a minority of people have the genetics that will give even close to a "movie star body", no matter how hard they work out. They'd be healthy, but wouldn't look toned and strong.

So it's as valid as for the "everyone can become rich through hard work" trope. As in not really. Socieconomic status, parents, race, location, family, and host of other thing outside of people's control play a huge role.

I mean it's silly to debate this, the real world example is pretty clear. The US has the least generous welfare system in the developed world. And it has some of the highest rate of poverty and lowest rate of socioeconomic advancement. Does this mean that people in the US is uniquely lazy compared to the rest of the western world?

If the conservative/libertarian belief that welfare makes people lazy and will lead to everyone slacking off shouldn't we see that in Europe on a mass scale? I don't think that's the case..? Unemployment most places there is as low as in the US. Shouldn't the lack of real social safety net in the US lead to lower poverty rates compared to Europe, not higher, as all those lazy poor people work harder? Let me guess; having the least generous welfare system is still too much, if we just remove even more of it we'll really see huge rises in social advancement and get people out of poverty!

(edit; we don't really have to imagine that, as zero social safety net and welfare was the case for much of human history up to last 100 years. How did that work out? What was the Gini coefficient in feudal middle ages?)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 02:06:53 PM by Scandium »

mathlete

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2018, 02:17:13 PM »
I paid my own way through school too. I could stop there and say that I'm a hard worker and luck doesn't explain my success.

But a billion people live in extreme poverty on this planet. I could have been any of their children. But I got working class Americans. I'm a global one per-center, and though I'm a diligent and hardworking person, I doubt that I'm in the top 1% of diligence or hard work.

My natural aptitude and my birth station are the biggest contributors to my progress towards FIRE. Things like diligence and sacrifice are a waaaaay distant third.

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2018, 02:57:59 PM »
I paid my own way through school too. I could stop there and say that I'm a hard worker and luck doesn't explain my success.

But a billion people live in extreme poverty on this planet. I could have been any of their children. But I got working class Americans. I'm a global one per-center, and though I'm a diligent and hardworking person, I doubt that I'm in the top 1% of diligence or hard work.

My natural aptitude and my birth station are the biggest contributors to my progress towards FIRE. Things like diligence and sacrifice are a waaaaay distant third.

You know very well it goes far beyond "working through school."  That only gets your foot in the door, maybe.

And no one here is comparing his situation to someone born in some third world brutal dictatorship where people have no chance, we are talking about why some in this country succeed while MOST do not, even though most could succeed.

You still need to work hard, save, and invest.  That means sacrificing on a lot of the nice things in life early on.  You still need to pass on instant gratification and keeping up with the Jones'.  That means spending time learning about investing and managing money while your peers are out messing around.  It means monitoring your investments over a lifetime if you want to succeed.

NONE of that stuff is luck.  It's hard work, it's discipline, it's sacrifice.  It's putting in the time and hard work while others are out having fun.

It should not be dismissed as "luck." 

Far too many in this country want to denigrate the hard work and success of others.  I'm not sure if it's because of jealousy, or if it's just an easy crutch to lean on- "It's not my fault I'm uneducated, broke and unemployed, I'm just not "lucky" like that nerd I grew up with who spent all his time in the library while I was smoking in the boys room."

Most of the folks I grew up, including my family, with are still working class (though not all- I'm not exceptional- others have also taken advantage of the opportunities available to all of us in this country).  Others have good jobs- six figure incomes, but are still broke, because every dollar they earn is blown immediately. 

Is it because they weren't "lucky?"  No, they had the same opportunities I did, they just didn't have the discipline to put in the work.  I'm not bigger, stronger, faster, smarter or better looking than they are.  I didn't have more money.  Or better parents.  Or better schools.  The difference is, I was studying and working, while they were out screwing around.

I made my own luck by spending my time productively, working to improve myself, rather than frittering away my time on unproductive activity.

Rather than telling folks it isn't their fault if they don't succeed, and dismissing all success as luck, we should be teaching people how to succeed and helping them do so.

That's why I teach financial literacy.  That's why I volunteer helping to teach adults to read. That's why I donate to charities that help people help themselves.  That's why I help hard working folks start their own businesses.  That's why I help fund college scholarships. 

Because I want them to know that they CAN succeed. 

I'm not going to tell them to sit back and do nothing, because they can't succeed, because it's all about "luck." 

What a crock of deterministic ... umm, stuff.


PhilB

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »
What a crock of deterministic ... umm, stuff.
I'd never say we live in a deterministic universe - we live in a probabilistic one.  All the good things you list yourself as doing for yourself, and helping others to do, are great because they help significantly shift the individual's probability distribution towards success.  It still remains a probability distribution though.
No-one wants to denigrate your success as all down to luck, or to excuse those who didn't take the steps you did to improve your chances (or indeed actively took steps in the other direction).  The more everyone can be encouraged to do to shift the odds in their favour, the better.  We just want people to recognise that, although you can take steps to improve your odds, there is still a very sizeable element of rolling the dice in the eventual outcome.

mathlete

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2018, 03:33:39 PM »
You know very well it goes far beyond "working through school."  That only gets your foot in the door, maybe.

And no one here is comparing his situation to someone born in some third world brutal dictatorship where people have no chance, we are talking about why some in this country succeed while MOST do not, even though most could succeed.

You still need to work hard, save, and invest.  That means sacrificing on a lot of the nice things in life early on.  You still need to pass on instant gratification and keeping up with the Jones'.  That means spending time learning about investing and managing money while your peers are out messing around.  It means monitoring your investments over a lifetime if you want to succeed.

NONE of that stuff is luck.  It's hard work, it's discipline, it's sacrifice.  It's putting in the time and hard work while others are out having fun.

It should not be dismissed as "luck." 

Far too many in this country want to denigrate the hard work and success of others.  I'm not sure if it's because of jealousy, or if it's just an easy crutch to lean on- "It's not my fault I'm uneducated, broke and unemployed, I'm just not "lucky" like that nerd I grew up with who spent all his time in the library while I was smoking in the boys room."

Most of the folks I grew up, including my family, with are still working class (though not all- I'm not exceptional- others have also taken advantage of the opportunities available to all of us in this country).  Others have good jobs- six figure incomes, but are still broke, because every dollar they earn is blown immediately. 

Is it because they weren't "lucky?"  No, they had the same opportunities I did, they just didn't have the discipline to put in the work.  I'm not bigger, stronger, faster, smarter or better looking than they are.  I didn't have more money.  Or better parents.  Or better schools.  The difference is, I was studying and working, while they were out screwing around.

I made my own luck by spending my time productively, working to improve myself, rather than frittering away my time on unproductive activity.

Rather than telling folks it isn't their fault if they don't succeed, and dismissing all success as luck, we should be teaching people how to succeed and helping them do so.

That's why I teach financial literacy.  That's why I volunteer helping to teach adults to read. That's why I donate to charities that help people help themselves.  That's why I help hard working folks start their own businesses.  That's why I help fund college scholarships. 

Because I want them to know that they CAN succeed. 

I'm not going to tell them to sit back and do nothing, because they can't succeed, because it's all about "luck." 

What a crock of deterministic ... umm, stuff.

I've told no one that they cannot succeed and I've never said it is all about luck.

But successful people tend to think it is all about them, and unsuccessful people tend to think it is all about luck. The truth is in the middle, of course. But being as that this is a personal finance community, the lion's share of people here are successful, and as such, there is a lot of dramatic downplaying of luck going on. It's written all up and down this thread. And MMM himself does it too, by the way.

I do think that working hard and doing the right things and being diligent in the face of random fluctuations of cosmic luck is an admirable, and optimal thing to do. After all, in a chaotic world, it's good to focus on the things you can actually control. But doing these admirable things doesn't mean that the luck element ceases to be there.

35% of the world lived on under $2 a day around the year of my birth. If I were to bet on the outcomes of my fellow humans born that year, I'd much rather bet on the 65% born above the extreme poverty line than I would on the top 65% of people when ranked by natural inclination for hard work or diligence or whatever.

I have no choice but to reconcile with the analytic truth that luck is simply more important. If someone wants to discount my success because of luck, then they're more than welcome to. It's not skin of my nose, and they're probably partially correct anyway. I'm a healthy, first-world white man with a high aptitude for numbers.

mm1970

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2018, 04:15:01 PM »
I am not sure why people who are about to retire feel the need to look down on others.  Why not just smile, tell them how you are able to do it, and kindly encourage them to do the same?

As far as what is “luck” and what isn’t...I think of the guy at work who was a year out from retirement when his young and healthy wife had a stroke that resulted in expensive bills and rehab so he is now working indefinitely.  Someone tell me how his “resilience” would have helped him.  Or my father, who saved and did all the “right things” financially, only to die of a rare condition at age 47 before he got a chance to enjoy it. 

I think it is the other way around actually.  People who don’t believe in “luck” desperately want to believe that they have control over everything because the alternative is terrifying.  The idea that everything you have worked for could dissipate in a moments notice is not comforting.  But it happens more than most people would realize. 

Personal responsibility goes a long way towards financial independence , but to believe that chance plays no part in it is naive.
Right.  It's obviously a combo.

I didn't choose my parents or my genetics.  In that respect, I was lucky.
I worked hard.  Yes.  But I'm also smart and white and my parents taught me to work hard.  And I live in the US.  That's lucky.
I managed to get in and out of the military during a time of not major conflicts.  Luck.
I'm healthy, my husband is healthy, our kids are healthy.

I have a few friends who were hit by cars on their bikes or scooters who now have years of rehab.  Who knows if/ when they will be able to work again, and both of them were the primary income.  How easy is it to keep the house when the primary income is gone, for the forseeable future?  Neither one chose to be run over.

mm1970

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2018, 04:23:32 PM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck. <etc>

If you saw a super physically fit person, would you go up to give them the same sort of nonsense about "luck" being the reason for their fitness? 

Sure, they were "lucky," if you take it to a ridiculous level.  They have two legs, they haven't been hit by a speeding locomotive, that their patents didn't keep them locked in a dungeon their entire lives- they are "lucky."

But I really doubt that even you would attribute their six-pack abs to "luck."

Because the real reason they are super fit and most of us aren't, is far less because of "luck" than because they were up at 6 AM getting in a workout while their less fit peers in bed tapping the snooze alarm.

By the same token, most of us who are financially successful have had no more "luck" than the broke people who live all around us.  We have simply been more disciplined than most, just as that athlete has been more disciplined.

So why do so many who would never denigrate the accomplishments of the physically fit so often try to "pooh pooh" the accomplishments of those who are fiscally fit?

The fiscally fit, just like the physically fit, should be held up as role models, not have their accomplishments dismissed with the intellectually lazy "lucky" argument.

Congratulations to the OP for working so hard to be "lucky." :)

This is a funny example seeing as body shape is very strongly tied to genetics. Some people can get six-pack abs more or less by simply avoiding eating huge amounts, others can do 100 situps a day and get nothing. Sure, if someone is super skinny or massively obese it's clear they're doing something wrong. But outwardly visible "fitness" is mostly genetics. Someone can be extremely strong and fit and look rather flabby. If someone works out daily they'd probably look fit, but if someone looks fit don't mean they work hard for it..

I can attest to this as I think look rather fit, but I've never rally worked out that hard.
I was going to say the same thing.  I'm pretty fit.  I work out, watch what I eat, and at various times have controlled my eating, weight training, running, whatever.

But nothing really changes the fact that I'm a 47 year old short and stocky female.

I run.  Train for races.  But the best I'm going to get (ever, and that time has passed) is a 10 minute mile for a half marathon.

I have wide hips and big thighs.  It is what it is.

My neighbor is my height, about 20 lbs lighter (slighter build) and once told me how much WORK she put in to keep that physique.  She's got a natural ability to build muscle and shed fat.  It was, quite literally, HALF of the work that I put in, and she had MUCH more leeway on her diet. 

Which is SOMETIMES depressing.  When I do a race, or anything physically really, there's a tiny bit of me that is bummed about how the sheer amount of time, effort, and work that I put in just isn't really visible.  I have to prepare a TON to get the smallest benefit.  I feel like the effort doesn't SHOW like it does for people who are more naturally athletic in genes, height, whatever.

So I really focus on doing what is good and right for me,  and try to let the rest roll right off. 

big_owl

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2018, 04:26:21 PM »
The older I get the more I realize how lucky I've been and I've become a lot less smug with myself.  Health is a huge one.  You don't realize how lucky you are to have it until you don't.  And not having it can outweigh everything else in life.   And choosing the right wife.  A lot of that was chance, and luck is a lot of the reason it worked out. 

dougules

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2018, 11:28:37 AM »
A lot of people in this forum don't realize how much luck has allowed them to get to where they are now, but the flip side is also true that a lot of people calling FIREees lucky were as lucky if not more themselves. 

Bytowner

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2018, 12:39:44 PM »
If someone's reaction to the entirely innocent pleasantry "you're lucky!" is to get annoyed and indignant, early retirement is best for both them and their coworkers. Sheesh.

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2018, 01:30:09 PM »
What a crock of deterministic ... umm, stuff.
I'd never say we live in a deterministic universe - we live in a probabilistic one.  All the good things you list yourself as doing for yourself, and helping others to do, are great because they help significantly shift the individual's probability distribution towards success.  It still remains a probability distribution though.
No-one wants to denigrate your success as all down to luck, or to excuse those who didn't take the steps you did to improve your chances (or indeed actively took steps in the other direction).  The more everyone can be encouraged to do to shift the odds in their favour, the better.  We just want people to recognise that, although you can take steps to improve your odds, there is still a very sizeable element of rolling the dice in the eventual outcome.

I agree with this, to an extent.

The only problem I see is that many people will use the "luck" bit as an excuse to not to do the things that will help them make their own "luck."  It's sort of a crutch for the non-religious often to use to explain away why someone else is succeeding and they are not (the religious equivalent is to sit back and attribute everything to "God's will" or "Inshallah" or similar BS- while doing nothing to make things better).

I imagine most of us know plenty of people, who have had the opportunity to do well financially, but have failed because they do all the wrong things.  They tend to be the ones moping around saying "I work hard, but I can't get ahead, because (insert excuse/conspiracy theory here)."

If those folks hear others using "the rich are just lucky" line, it will further cement their fatalistic "woe is me, I can't do anything to change it" nonsense.

These folks need to have a fire lit under their butts if they hope to improve themselves, and that won't happen if enablers go along with their "the rich just got lucky, the little guy has no chance" BS.

Retire-Canada

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2018, 03:12:45 PM »
I was lucky in late 2014 that I stumbled upon a link to MMM's blog on a motorcycle forum and started reading it. I changed a lot in my financial life and set me on the path to FIRE. A luckier version of me would have found MMM in 2012 and be retired today and an unluckier version of me still hasn't found it and is not retiring anytime soon.

Rosy

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2018, 05:09:07 PM »
I am not sure why people who are about to retire feel the need to look down on others.  Why not just smile, tell them how you are able to do it, and kindly encourage them to do the same?

As far as what is “luck” and what isn’t...I think of the guy at work who was a year out from retirement when his young and healthy wife had a stroke that resulted in expensive bills and rehab so he is now working indefinitely.  Someone tell me how his “resilience” would have helped him.  Or my father, who saved and did all the “right things” financially, only to die of a rare condition at age 47 before he got a chance to enjoy it. 

I think it is the other way around actually.  People who don’t believe in “luck” desperately want to believe that they have control over everything because the alternative is terrifying.  The idea that everything you have worked for could dissipate in a moments notice is not comforting.  But it happens more than most people would realize. 


Personal responsibility goes a long way towards financial independence , but to believe that chance plays no part in it is naive.

^^^ THIS ^^^

aspiringnomad

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2018, 09:53:57 PM »
I was lucky in late 2014 that I stumbled upon a link to MMM's blog on a motorcycle forum and started reading it. I changed a lot in my financial life and set me on the path to FIRE. A luckier version of me would have found MMM in 2012 and be retired today and an unluckier version of me still hasn't found it and is not retiring anytime soon.

This resonates so much with me. I stumbled in here via a link in a biking/transit forum. I was gifted with some smarts (though not a particularly strong work ethic nor a squeaky clean adolescence), and I already had a good career. Given my circumstances, FIRE seemed pretty easy after reading this blog, but another version of me is living in a much larger home and plugging away to a normal retirement age.

MindfulMoney

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Re: It's Not &quot;Luck&quot;
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2018, 07:27:24 AM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck. &lt;etc&gt;

If you saw a super physically fit person, would you go up to give them the same sort of nonsense about "luck" being the reason for their fitness? 

Sure, they were "lucky," if you take it to a ridiculous level.  They have two legs, they haven't been hit by a speeding locomotive, that their patents didn't keep them locked in a dungeon their entire lives- they are "lucky."

But I really doubt that even you would attribute their six-pack abs to "luck."

Because the real reason they are super fit and most of us aren't, is far less because of "luck" than because they were up at 6 AM getting in a workout while their less fit peers in bed tapping the snooze alarm.

By the same token, most of us who are financially successful have had no more "luck" than the broke people who live all around us.  We have simply been more disciplined than most, just as that athlete has been more disciplined.

So why do so many who would never denigrate the accomplishments of the physically fit so often try to "pooh pooh" the accomplishments of those who are fiscally fit?

The fiscally fit, just like the physically fit, should be held up as role models, not have their accomplishments dismissed with the intellectually lazy "lucky" argument.

Congratulations to the OP for working so hard to be "lucky." :)

Yes. I absolutely see the fit person as being lucky. They are lucky that they weren’t born with defective joints and a heart defect like I was. I’m literally not allowed to workout hard.

Likewise, I’m lucky that I was born exposed to enough oxygen unlike my childhood classmate who was a totally healthy pregnancy, but got stuck on the way out, lost an eye from the forceps and got severe brain damage from the oxygen deprivation.

I’m a hell of a lot luckier than the little boy I knew at the women’s shelter who was born addicted to drugs and whose mom was a 15 year old hooker whose dad was her pimp AND the one who got her pregnant.

ALL of the above are lucky we were born in Canada where we were provided free, unlimited, high quality healthcare to try and address our issues.

No, I am not lucky compared to my equally privileged colleagues who wantonly go into more debt than needed because they lack common sense. I just use my brain and math skills better than they do. That’s not luck, but that’s comparing people of equal privilege, which is what a lot of privileged people tend to see as a baseline. What you call “ridiculous” is A LOT of people’s reality.

Yes, anyone privileged can FIRE, but we’re all lucky as fuck to be so privileged.
Not being born brain damaged is not a product of hard work. That’s luck. There’s no two ways about it.
Lots of truth to this. Luck and changing habits/self education all factor into where we are all now.

It's good to realize where we have been lucky and where we have made our own destiny by the decisions we make.


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desertadapted

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2018, 07:41:00 AM »
What a neat discussion.  My two sententious cents:
People who achieve commendable things should be complimented on their hard work, their genius, their whatever, and should have the grace to accept the compliment, but not expect one.  Recognizing the importance that “good” luck plays in one’s own successes is the key ingredient in striving to be humble, compassionate and wise.  It’s also the key ingredient in not being a self-satisfied a**hole.  Conversely, not dwelling on or meekly accepting the “bad” luck in your life is a key ingredient of success.

Lmoot

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2018, 08:10:46 AM »
I don’t know about anyone else but 90% of the time I say “you’re lucky”, “lucky you”, or any variation of that, unless I’m in a casino or standing in front of someone holding a lotto ticket, I do not mean it in the literal sense. It almost never means that. It’s just what people say when they are acknowledging that you have something or have done something, that others want. Or they don’t know why you’re telling them these things and don’t know how to reply, so they’re just giving you a canned response. I personally try to go with the good ole “good for you”, in a congratulatory tone.

dividendman

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2018, 09:21:21 AM »
Many people have said a similar thing in this thread already, but try not giving a fuck.

https://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-fuck

dude

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2018, 09:23:15 AM »
I don't know about your situation specifically, but I would argue that some, not all, but some things do in fact have a lot to do with luck.  I feel lucky that I was born into a loving family with educated parents who paid for my undergraduate degree, allowing me no college debt.  I feel lucky that I was able to live with them, rent-free, in between undergrad and grad school and also during my graduate internship, thus allowing me to save money.

I feel lucky that I have children that were born with no medical issues that cost hundreds to thousands each month/year.  I feel lucky that both my husband and I are in good health and don't have a disease/illness with treatment that costs thousands and we are both able to work (though I am a SAHM, which I also feel thankful about) and we have no pre-existing conditions and can get affordable health and life insurance.   

I think some people do have bad luck, through no fault of their own, that has nothing to do with their decisions and that we, as a society, need to stop blaming EVERYTHING on personal decisions.  Sometimes life just deals you a crappy hand and you make the most of it...which might lead to not being able to do things like retire early.  So yes, those people are going to feel that you are lucky.

That obviously is not the case of many, but unless you are living in their house and paying their bills, then you really don't know. 

And, congratulations on your obvious hard work, but also good fortune.

Amen to this^!  Luck plays a far greater role in our success than we'd like to admit. Yes, choices matter, but some peoples' good choices do not lead to the same positive outcomes that others' do.  Luck is a big factor. I cannot count how many times I've gotten lucky in my lifetime.  Sure, I put myself in a position to get lucky or take advantage of fortuitous opportunities, but I was lucky nonetheless.

dude

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2018, 09:44:35 AM »
What a neat discussion.  My two sententious cents:
People who achieve commendable things should be complimented on their hard work, their genius, their whatever, and should have the grace to accept the compliment, but not expect one.

But is penny-pinching and amassing material wealth really all that commendable?  I mean, c'mon, I'm doing it too, but I recognize that it is a grossly selfish thing to do. I don't expect any commendation. I don't give a fuck if anyone tells me I'm lucky (I am). Taking that phrase as an affront to all the hard work one has done is pretty petty and thin-skinned, if you ask me. I don't care what they think, and they likely don't care what I think. Yay for me, I've hoarded enough cash to not have to work anymore. Other people may have other priorities or unseen disabilities that prevent them from doing the same.  Seriously, just let it go, OP. It's not worth wasting mental energy over.

Retire-Canada

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2018, 09:52:51 AM »
I mean, c'mon, I'm doing it too, but I recognize that it is a grossly selfish thing to do.

Saving money and putting into the market is selfish compared to the typical consumer who spends all their income??? How is that?

desertadapted

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2018, 10:02:09 AM »
@dude
Quote
But is penny-pinching and amassing material wealth really all that commendable?
No.  Amassing material wealth (be in through high earnings or ass-kicking frugality) is its own reward.  I didn't intend to imply that FIRE was something that should end in flattering praise.  My fault for bad drafting.

dude

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2018, 10:19:51 AM »
I mean, c'mon, I'm doing it too, but I recognize that it is a grossly selfish thing to do.

Saving money and putting into the market is selfish compared to the typical consumer who spends all their income??? How is that?

It's no different. Saving is simply future consumption. It all evens out.

Retire-Canada

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2018, 10:36:53 AM »
It's no different. Saving is simply future consumption. It all evens out.

It could be future charity and if it's the same than it can't be selfish relative to what the rest of the population is doing.

dougules

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2018, 10:58:58 AM »
What a neat discussion.  My two sententious cents:
People who achieve commendable things should be complimented on their hard work, their genius, their whatever, and should have the grace to accept the compliment, but not expect one.

But is penny-pinching and amassing material wealth really all that commendable?  I mean, c'mon, I'm doing it too, but I recognize that it is a grossly selfish thing to do. I don't expect any commendation. I don't give a fuck if anyone tells me I'm lucky (I am). Taking that phrase as an affront to all the hard work one has done is pretty petty and thin-skinned, if you ask me. I don't care what they think, and they likely don't care what I think. Yay for me, I've hoarded enough cash to not have to work anymore. Other people may have other priorities or unseen disabilities that prevent them from doing the same.  Seriously, just let it go, OP. It's not worth wasting mental energy over.

Penny-pinching means you're not spending your money on stupid stuff that doesn't help your happiness or the collective happiness of everybody else.  Amassing material wealth can be selfish, but a lot of people will probably use their surplus to help other people instead of spending it on SUVs and plastic trinkets. 

DS

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2018, 12:32:51 PM »
Took a philosophy class once. Forgot how we ended up there, but I ended up asking:

"Isn't just staying alive selfish?"

Consuming resources, etc. etc. Waste of time to argue about though. Haha.

SugarMountain

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2018, 12:45:12 PM »
Gates was probably one of the best programmers in the world at that point.
Huh.  As I remember it, you couldn't prove that via MS DOS.

I agree everything else though.  (And I'm not contesting that Gates earned his billions.  Just the idea that MS DOS was "best" programmed.)

A couple of additional points on Gates. He didn't write DOS, he bought it from Tim Paterson for $75,000.  Second, his mother had the connections for him to get the deal to put MS-DOS on IBM PCs.  So he definitely was lucky and benefitted from family connections, but he was also very smart and very hard working.

As for luck, as others have pointed out, to be able to FIRE requires luck in a number of ways.  Being above average intelligence, particularly in math & science is a big helper.  Being born in a family that is frugal and values savings is another.  Being born in the late 20th century in a very wealthy country certainly helps. Excessive stock market returns over the last 40 years is lucky.  If I'd been born in 1867 instead of 1967, I would be very unlikely to be able to FIRE.  Heck, just being tall, white, and male are an advantage when it comes to earning power.  So I'm lucky there too.

Now, there are tons of decisions that anyone who has FIREd has been on the right side of.  Quite possibly what field of study to undertake, what kind of jobs to take, when to get additional education, when to change jobs, how many kids to have, etc.  And how hard to work, how much to focus on budget, what to spend money on all have a big impact as well.

So, to the OP, congrats on your success.

libertarian4321

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2018, 03:53:52 AM »

But is penny-pinching and amassing material wealth really all that commendable? 

Yeah, it is. 

Or, at least, it can be.

I won't say how much I have, but I'm well into the multimillionaire category.  It's been, I would guess, 20 years or so since my salary as an engineer (and my wife's as a chemist) has been our primary source of income.

We still live VERY middle class lives (our big purchase over the holidays was a Keurig coffee maker).  I drive a truck that is probably older than a lot of the posters on this forum.

But we also give a ton of money to charity.  Roughly my entire "work" salary gets donated (mostly to charity, but some to political organizations).

Could I have donated $5,000 to a no kill shelter if I was living on the financial edge?  Probably not.

Could I have donated hundreds of dollars to JJ Watt's fund to help Houston or Tim Duncan's project to help the US Virgin Islands if I was spending everything I make?  Probably not.

And yes, I spend way too much time watching sports. :)

Could I have given money to lower income kids to go to college if I lived like most of our well paid, but financially stressed, peers?  Probably not.

When you save money and invest, it's not just about FIRE.  Sure, FIRE is the first objective, but at some point, you realize you have more than enough to retire on. 

I know it's probably somewhat of a bubble, but my wife and I sit back and laugh at how much our net worth on paper has increased under the "Trump Rally."  Our net worth is going up so fast, our salaries as a chemist and engineer are trivial in comparison to the growth.

So what do you do in that case?  I guess you can go "Scrooge McDuck" and just watch the money pile up in your account, but that seems kind of pointless.  We choose to use the money to support causes we believe in.

You can't give 10's of thousands to charity if you are living paycheck to paycheck, even if you have a good income.  Our well paid, but generally broke-ass (because, like most Americans, they spend as fast as they earn)  friends have little or no money to donate to charity.

So yeah, amassing wealth IS commendable.  It's commendable even if you only use it to FIRE, but it's far more so when you realize that you can do a lot of good with your money.

Wealth gives you opportunities far beyond just living a comfortable life and FIRE.

And it all starts with penny pinching, investing, and amassing wealth.  Neither myself (born working class, at best) nor my immigrant wife came from wealth.  We got there doing the things MMM, Dave Ramsey, and so many others recommend.  We worked hard, got a good education, got good jobs, lived well below our means, saved and invested.  So now we are financially independent and can afford to give as we see fit.

And there are millions of American millionaires doing the same thing we are doing.