Author Topic: It's Not "Luck"  (Read 23637 times)

Bateaux

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2018, 06:04:22 AM »

But is penny-pinching and amassing material wealth really all that commendable? 

Yeah, it is. 

Or, at least, it can be.

I won't say how much I have, but I'm well into the multimillionaire category.  It's been, I would guess, 20 years or so since my salary as an engineer (and my wife's as a chemist) has been our primary source of income.

We still live VERY middle class lives (our big purchase over the holidays was a Keurig coffee maker).  I drive a truck that is probably older than a lot of the posters on this forum.

But we also give a ton of money to charity.  Roughly my entire "work" salary gets donated (mostly to charity, but some to political organizations).

Could I have donated $5,000 to a no kill shelter if I was living on the financial edge?  Probably not.

Could I have donated hundreds of dollars to JJ Watt's fund to help Houston or Tim Duncan's project to help the US Virgin Islands if I was spending everything I make?  Probably not.

And yes, I spend way too much time watching sports. :)

Could I have given money to lower income kids to go to college if I lived like most of our well paid, but financially stressed, peers?  Probably not.

When you save money and invest, it's not just about FIRE.  Sure, FIRE is the first objective, but at some point, you realize you have more than enough to retire on. 

I know it's probably somewhat of a bubble, but my wife and I sit back and laugh at how much our net worth on paper has increased under the "Trump Rally."  Our net worth is going up so fast, our salaries as a chemist and engineer are trivial in comparison to the growth.

So what do you do in that case?  I guess you can go "Scrooge McDuck" and just watch the money pile up in your account, but that seems kind of pointless.  We choose to use the money to support causes we believe in.

You can't give 10's of thousands to charity if you are living paycheck to paycheck, even if you have a good income.  Our well paid, but generally broke-ass (because, like most Americans, they spend as fast as they earn)  friends have little or no money to donate to charity.

So yeah, amassing wealth IS commendable.  It's commendable even if you only use it to FIRE, but it's far more so when you realize that you can do a lot of good with your money.

Wealth gives you opportunities far beyond just living a comfortable life and FIRE.

And it all starts with penny pinching, investing, and amassing wealth.  Neither myself (born working class, at best) nor my immigrant wife came from wealth.  We got there doing the things MMM, Dave Ramsey, and so many others recommend.  We worked hard, got a good education, got good jobs, lived well below our means, saved and invested.  So now we are financially independent and can afford to give as we see fit.

And there are millions of American millionaires doing the same thing we are doing.

Trying to do the same.  You and your wife are awesome.   Wish we were neighbors.

PhilB

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2018, 02:32:35 AM »
This thread keeps reminding me of a quote from legendary Australian cricketer Richie Benaud.  Before anyone gets cross about this, I am NOT saying these are anything like the corresponding percentages for anyone's achievement of FIRE, but I think it has an element of essential truth:
"Captaincy is 90% luck and 10% skill. But don’t try it without that 10%."


Scandium

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2018, 09:21:54 AM »
I don't care too much about people telling me that I am lucky, but it really bothers my husband.  Once, his mother told him that I was really lucky to get a new job during the recession.  He snapped at his own mother about how hard I worked for that position!  It's true that I did put a lot of effort, but I wouldn't have snapped at her.


Sorry but your husband sounds like an ahole. Does he think you were the only person who worked hard for that position? Or the only one who deserved it?

As his mother said, probably out of genuine happiness, you were very lucky to find a job during the recession as I'm sure many other highly qualified people applied for it.

I don't know you nor the type of work you do but I'm guessing you're not the only one in your city who does it or could. You were lucky, why not just say, "Yes, we are. Thanks!"?

This sounds typical of the "it's all my hard work!" crowd. They assume everyone else are slackers, and that's the only reason they don't have things. (this is of course a typical libertarian way of thinking)

How did the husband in that case know that everyone else didn't work equally hard for that position? What if someone else worked as hard, or harder, but he got the job because he had whiter teeth and nicer hair? Or someone got sick before the interview? Or a million other factors that were out of his control (not even touching on more sinister factors that can have an influence)

I think people here have it backwards when they complain that we (especially the US) ascribe success to luck too much. "Hard Work" is always elevated to this mythical position and used as an excuse to not give second chances, or distribute the rewards of collective national success to a wast amount of unfortunate people. People who know me will say I'm a cold-hearted, selfish a-hole, but even I am surprised by the number of uncaring jerks in the USA.

Slee_stack

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2018, 10:51:28 AM »
This is a silly argument from an entire population or history of time perspective.

ALL people on the planet (give or take) are 'luckier' than caveman or any human that was alive just before the ice age.

The OPs posting must be taken in context to argue any point.

The OP was not told they were 'lucky' by a third world orphan from Indonesia. They had co-workers tell them that.


It is not unreasonable to assume a similar amount of generic 'luck' is shared among this small population (OP and co-workers).

In that context, and at face value, claiming the OP is 'lucky' is just dismissive.


You cannot argue this in an extreme, all-encompassing context.  That's strawman bullshit.



I'm good with accepting that the co-worker used 'lucky' in a good-for-you way.  That's the optimistic perspective.

Personally, I've been told I've been 'lucky' by a person making 50% more than me, working half the hours I do, with fewer responsibilities, and in better health.

Sorry, but where exactly is my 'luck' in that scenario?   Its just bullshit envy about the harder (less fun) choices I've made to this point.   Fuck that.  Luck my ass...

SwordGuy

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #104 on: February 10, 2018, 05:27:46 PM »

A couple of additional points on Gates. He didn't write DOS, he bought it from Tim Paterson for $75,000.  Second, his mother had the connections for him to get the deal to put MS-DOS on IBM PCs.  So he definitely was lucky and benefitted from family connections, but he was also very smart and very hard working.

Digital Research came out with a micro-computer operating system called CPM.   It was pretty popular back in the day.

If I remember correctly, Microsoft (i.e., Gates) ported CPM to the Apple II.   The IBM folks looking for an operating system for their new PC product thought Microsoft was the creator of CPM.   That provided the credibility to get the PCDOS business.

PDXTabs

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #105 on: February 10, 2018, 05:53:55 PM »
The OP was not told they were 'lucky' by a third world orphan from Indonesia. They had co-workers tell them that.

I guess you are right about that.

It's the opposite, luck is overrated, as a society we have to stop blaming everything on luck and make people accountable. What makes you successful is resilience to failure/bad luck and persistence. Unless something big happens to you like illness, accident or death, if you're born in the US you have the luck part down already. It's like investing in a stock market index, you can chalk it up to luck in the ups and downs but if you keep your expenses low, savings rate high and stick it up for 30+ years, you will be successful with a high probability. The more random events you add up, the less variance you get on the final result. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_limit_theorem

I suggest you check out a copy of The Vanishing Middle Class by Peter Temin (MIT press) if you wish to learn why it takes more luck today than at any point since WWII, and possibly WWI (especially if you are black).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 05:57:44 PM by PDXTabs »

aceyou

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2018, 12:34:33 PM »
Can't speak for you, but I'm really damn lucky.  I won several very important lotteries:

Lottery #1:  I was born in a rich first world country...in my case, the United States.  Had I been born in Yemen, or Syria, Somalia, or many other places, my financial life would likely be very different. A lazy person born in a rich first world country will be wealthier than 90% of hard working frugal people born in a third world or war torn country.

Lottery #2: I was born above the poverty line.  A moderately lazy person born above the poverty line has a higher likelyhood at success in the USA than a hard working person born below the poverty line. 

I am also a man who happens to be white on top of that.  For an example of what an advantage that is, look at who is running the executive branch in the United States currently.  A person who behaved that way would never get elected unless they were both white and male. 

I am a hard worker and natural saver.  While I deserve credit for that, those two factors account for 10% of my wealth at best.  The other 90% was from winning the lottery multiple times. 

Maybe you aren't as lucky as me, but again, I can only speak for myself. 

Zikoris

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2018, 01:32:27 PM »
In my experience, every single person who's played the "You're lucky!" card has been substantially "luckier" than me, and not one person who genuinely had it rough (immigrant, disability, whatever) had ever said that. Digging into it is always interesting - "You're lucky you had parents who taught you to do X" - No they didn't, they actually did the opposite of X. "You're lucky you can afford X" - Uh hello, you make more money than me, if anyone can afford X it's you, which you definitely could if you stopped buying lunch and coffee everyday.

The internet makes up for luck these days anyway. You can learn how to do pretty much anything, from how to fix your fridge to how to retire in your 30s.

Abe Froman

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Re: It's Not "Luck"
« Reply #108 on: February 12, 2018, 11:08:53 AM »
Wow - you ARE lucky !!!!
giggle